Stars Aligned III - The Tenth Day

[AurorusVox]

Woah. I saw the pages increase rapidly as I caught-up, and most of it was a stupid cockfight. Seems to have settled down now.

Vox's Epic Catchup Post of Win

Anyone want to volunteer as to not hearing noises N0?

I did not hear noise. I did not ward.

I have a question for everyone: What is your Stars Aligned experience?

SA virgin =3

Regarding Furcolow

As a result of your continued push based upon recent evidence that I am town, I'm going to:

Vote: MoI

,
until he unvotes me,

This struck me as anti-town (it was later retracted, but was this because Fur didn't want to look anti-town, or because he didn't want to

be

anti-town?)

as I feel I am as close to being confirmed after a N0 as is humanly possible unless someone decided to admit they stalked someone and kill them tomorrow.

I don't believe in "degrees" of confirmage. Either you're confirmed or you're not, and Furcolow, you are not. I'll go into this more in a moment.

Don't be greedy, guys. If you all stalked, please don't make a second kill. There are like 75% investigators, we have an easy win if you guys

don't

get selfish.

Whilst this plea looks pro-town on first glance, it makes me worried that Fur is already planning on going the killer route. By stressing that town can win if they band together, by stressing that no one needs to make a second kill - if he then goes on to become a murderer, he may have dissuaded some people from taking that route, thus increasing his chances. Moreover, finding out who stalked also tells him who his competition could be later in the game.

Furc: I did in fact miss that El had heard noise. Sup confirmed townie.
[...]
Benmage: You're not confirmed town. You could be scum who used Craft Fetish on Fate.

Why does El hearing noise confirm Furc? Fate heard a noise and Ben claims to have targetted Fate, but you say that he could use Craft Fetish. Why can't Furc have used Craft Fetish?

It is POSSIBLE that he Stalked but didn't want to admit it yet, was caught in Lynch All Liars, appealed to the mod in desperation, and was fortunate that the rules had changed. Admittedly, that is a stretch (besides, in my opinion scum would have more likely said "Oh wait I stalked, whoops wrong thing!"), but it IS possible. In Hito's "confirm" he only mentions that El heard noise, not the fact that Furc

didn't

hear noise. It looks a little suspect, as does the fact that Furc is constantly affirming how great Hito is - but Hito is otherwise giving me a townie vibe and Furc has actually otherwise had some good pro-town moves:

also, the fact benmage is claiming stalk but trying to wagon fate makes him not confirmed town to me
makes him actually lean scum. why would town want to wagon the person they stalked? that's counter-productive.

And if you can just murder him tonight anyway, Benmage, then why are you even wasting your breath?

^These are both very valid points, I don't get why Benmage would want to stalk AND lynch the person. You do one or the other, or else you're wasting something somewhere.

BenMage you are not confirmed unless you carry out your vig

If he crafted a fetish on Fate, even if Fate died, how would we know it was a murder and not a Ritual that had taken place?

I'll tally a vote. Should BenMage kill Fate N1?

I'll answer when I've had that above question cleared up.

Seriously this pissing match is stupid, I don't care which of you has the biggest dick. I think Fate's town from his reaction [...] He also sounds genuinely pissed off which I think he's more likely to be as town.

^Again, I agree with this. It's irritating to read, but it does make Fate seem townier. I'm more willing to trust reading his reaction than some historical-meta that I don't really have a grasp of.

Triglav needs more votes, by the by. Let's not have all this distract us from the scum in front of us.

What's the case on Triglav? He's only posted once, right? I didn't see anything that stuck out as superscummy...

@Benmage

Why do you think Fate would NOT have crafted your Fetish? If he hates you like you say he does, he'd surely have stalked OR crafted your fetish.

if 21 investigators inhibit them 15% everytime... HMM I WONDER.
It's not clearly worth it for them, it is clearly worth it for us from my perspective.
5/7 will be needed for them to even kill past a res, like if I ressed VP Baltar and they ritualled him... it wouldn't work (I don't have a res kit, unfortunately) unless they had 5/7. Where they would have to have 1/7 ressing fate, assuming fate is even cult, then that would leave them to either pick someone to kill who didn't claim they heard noise (otherwise they are likely to be ressed and require 5/7 to go one up on the res via ritual), or they will only have 1 person crafting fetishes, and that one person can only make 2 or gain an insanity which hurts cult that way as well..

therefore, it is even above 15% in terms of inhibiting them, as they have to either run the risk of losing their NK, gaining an insanity if they want a 3rd fetish crafted, or play stupidly.

^All of this is well thought out. Could be a little too well thought out - I'm thinking that this "5/7" would spring to a cultist's mind quicker than it would to a townie. Overall though, I think Furcolow has started the game sided with the town. Whether or not he has intentions of becoming a killer later, I'm not sure...

[AurorusVox]

EBWOP: Eww, sorry that the quotes are ugly. I was overwhelmed by the ninjaz and forgot to check my preview for aesthetics before posting ._."

Oh man, in a post about ninjaz I get ninja'd.

Rew, it states that there are 7 cult.

[AurorusVox]

kills have flavor

Then I'm for testing Benmage's kill.

@Aurora fate prob. Did whatever the cult wanted him to do.

Why would he PTW for cult, but not for town?

There's a problem with warding/rezzing in circles, and that's if the cult uses the Greater Ritual, since it would take two rezzes to stop the kill going through.

[AurorusVox]

We get a LOT of words that say, all nice and quantified, Fur is a stalker, no wait, he's cult, no wait, I think he's town.

And, of course, no vote - because he thinks he's town BUTTT quantified enough that a wagon jumpin dance party can take place.

F--

Well, I'm not willing to vote for Furc at the moment because I do think he's town. So there will be no wagon jumping dance party today. But I'm keeping an eye on him because I think there's a chance that he could have gone/be thinking of going the killer route. Being a killer = being town today. There is no contradiction there.

Ben is probably the scummiest player I've noticed on my first read but I'd rather see him prove his town credentials via him killing Fate than lynching him. Whether we Ressuccitate Fate is another conversation to have later, but IMO Ben can just put up with the insanities :\ there are some that it doesn't matter him having, like Twitchy, for example, if we know he's going to be getting them anyway.

And I'm going to re-read (skipping the cockfight) to get a better sense of the other players tomorrow. I don't feel like placing an RV at this stage in the game when there's already a lot to go on, and I don't want to put a vote down senselessly either.

[AurorusVox]

And the "ohhh 5/7 cult flavor" dancing mechanics?

And NOW a reread?

And saying Ben is the scummiest but because he might kill Fate its not worth a vote?

Come on now.

1) I'm not going to ignore something that looks like it could come from cult just because I have a town-read on someone. I made it clear that I didn't think he was cult. What's the problem?

2) I just read ~10 pages in one go. It's almost 1am. I am not re-reading until tomorrow.

3) Because he WILL kill Fate if we don't lynch Fate, and that would confirm him as town (as I understand it) - or be exposed as a liar. Since he can't die tonight anyway, I'd rather be cautious and let the guy who CAN confirm himself as town do that, if he is in fact town.

[AurorusVox]

This is a bit of a wall post, and for that I apologise. I've done a (re)-read of 20 pages. I've tried to

bold

peoples' names so that you don't have to read the whole thing, but I'd ask SpyreX to read most of it since I address some of his concerns whilst talking about other people. I was ninja'd so many times that my submitted form became invalid. Three pages have been written since I started writing this :\

Okay, to start off, for the people QQing over me saying I want to re-read (I'm looking at

SpyreX

and

Trilobite

in particular); I have a life, which yesterday involved being up and out from 7:30am until 10:30pm, and so when I read the thread, I was very tired and NOT WILLING to make a half-assed vote considering that RVS ended long ago. Also, I'd like to point out that I'm not the only player who has posted and not voted; what do you make of those other players?

Now that it is midday, I have been better able to collect my thoughts and settle my suspicions by giving the whole thread another read. When I reached my initial catchup post on my re-read, I can see that it does look all over the place. Hopefully this post will help to clarify my thoughts.

Regarding MoI

I don't like that he seems to be tunnelling Furcolow. Until Plum called him out on it, all that he posted was directly related to Furcolow. I do not think that Furcolow is clear (as I have said, I treat "clear" as an absolute/binary value) but I have acknowledged that for Furcolow to be lying about warding would require a substantial amount of luck on his part for him to have NOT been caught out by mod-rules. MoI, on the other hand, seems to have disregarded this strand of the argument entirely, and keeps looking for loopholes to maintain his vote.

As others have pointed out, this

if he is Cult fake-claiming Ward all he has to do is claim to have Warded someone the Cult successfully crafted a fetish of.

argument is not very strong at all. It looks like MoI stretching to legitimise his case on a player whom he thinks that he can push a policy lynch on.

For these reasons I am going to

Vote: MagnaofIllusion

Regarding Furcolow (and response to SpyreX)

I am happy to treat him as an investigator, despite the scummy things that he has done, mostly because of the luck involved in appealing to the rule that changed (considering that he would not have known that it would subsequently change). People have declared him a VI; I think that accounts for my suspicions of the potentially culty-side of his play (even now, he's acting pretty scummy, but VIs gonna VI).

A problem that I have when I play as town is that I can argue myself in circles - I consider both/too many sides of an argument, and end up WIFOMing myself to sleep (in this case I presented arguments for three different alignments). When I'm speculating on something, especially VI players, this is obviously problematic; but where I've indicated stronger opinions, this should be less of an issue.

NINJA NEWSFLASH

Percy's new post has since surfaced. I think you could argue quite strongly that Drippereth is in fact unambiguous, if the hydra account involves Drippereth + one other player. True, it could be considered a technical error, but it's not an infeasible leap of logic to go from Drippereth to El G, and I think that this is what has happened. There is very likely opportunistic cult votes on the Furc wagon after Percy's post.

Regarding Benmage vs Fate (in response to Wicked)

I've already stated my views on this; I'm leaning town on Fate due to his reactions; Benmage was the scummiest player on my initial read of the thread.

I also said that I want to see Benmage shoot Fate to prove that he is town like he claims; if he does not do that, then we know he was lying about stalking and we can lynch him tomorrow. I've already said that if we lynch him today we lose out on that potential confirmed townie. There's also the potential to resuscitate Fate.

I think

xvart

has misunderstood my later argument for the whole Benmage situation (he asks "So we are going to start lynching people to prove they are town?"). I'm saying: DON'T lynch Ben since he can confirm himself at night. If he can't confirm himself, then he was lying. Then we lynch him tomorrow.

Despite the fact that he's voting for a townie, I'm getting pretty strong townvibes from

SpyreX

and wonder why

Furpants_Tom

is voting for him when he commended SpyreX for scumhunting in his previous post? I responded with regards to my triple-read of Furcolow earlier in this post, but I wanted to give this attention:

THE WAY ONE DEALS WITH STOPPING BEN FROM KILLING FATE ESPECIALLY IF YOU ACTUALLY THOUGHT BEN WAS SCUM WOULD BE IN FACT VOTING AND PERHAPS EVEN LYNCHING HIM.

To be clear; I believe that Benmage IS lying but I'd rather be wrong about him being scum and have him confirmed by killing Fate, than to try to lynch someone who can confirm themselves as town.

The reasons that I think he is lying are: He seemed eager to lynch Fate and/or not shoot Fate, which makes me think he didn't stalk Fate. He has the chance to confirm himself as town and yet would rather lynch the guy than get that confirmation. It smells off. Add to that this hypocritical idea that Benmage has that Fate wouldn't craft his fetish if he was cult, and I'm not really sure where he's coming from at all.

I've mostly liked

Lost Butterfly's

earlier posts, but the vote for Triglav on page 4 came out of nowhere. I asked for clarification on this earlier. Also, the "bad vibes" from VP Baltar's post is odd - attributed to the smilies, of which he uses one (I get that it's a joke but it's also factually inaccurate!). His vote on Furc after saying how town he finds him stinks of opportunistic voting. The speed at which he declared it a technical error was astounding.

Totallynotmafia

's posting has been good, he sparked the idea of forbidden insanities, and broached the topic of rezzing Fate which meshes with my thoughts on the matter. That said I have thought of a complication to Rezzing Fate; if Fate is NOT town, he could just lie about being (not) bloody and have Benmage lynched. We wouldn't actually be able to tell if he ever became bloody in the first place, because murder resolves after investigate, and launder resolves before :\

Both of

Bowser's

votes have been on the tails of others' votes, without really going into their suspicions much. Someone mentioned that this was CSL's town meta?

ReaperCharlie's

earlier vote on Benmage seems odd. He hasn't expressed any opinion regarding the "Should Benmage kill Fate?" question, and votes for Benmage, when a big part of lynching Benmage revolves around your opinion of Benmage shooting Fate. I'd like to hear his opinion on that matter outright.

Hito

I read as playing very pro-town, I like it a lot (INB4 he goes murder route and kills us all)

I don't like the fact that

Andrius

has RVS'd VasudeVa but then FoS'd (rather than voted) Bowser. Considering that Bowser has a five-strong wagon by the time of his post (#342), it looks very suspicious to me. He continues to keep the VasudeVa RV through the rest of his catchup posts.

From here on out my posts won't be so wall-ey.

[AurorusVox]

Furc’s self-stated assertions in thread that he

1. Did not bother to read the player list when choosing an action.
2. Didn’t bother reading his N0 role/action PM closely before choosing an action.

Indicates he’s not going to have planned and researched in advance IMO.

On the other hand based on Stars Aligned II, which he played in and read, if winging his fake-claim he would likely assume Ward operated in the same manner in this game.

If he assumes that Warding will make him hear a noise, as that is how it operated in the previous game, then why would he say that he didn't hear a noise? If he was really lying about his actions, he would have said that he DID hear a noise.

Moreover, when someone pointed out that he SHOULD have heard a noise (before the rules were explicitly altered),

if he was lying

, why did he not say either (a) "Oh, I did hear a noise after all" or (b) "Oh, I didn't ward after all"?

What reason has he got to appeal to the mod UNLESS he really did not hear a noise and is not lying about warding?

From PG 16 I am killing fate because there's too much wine not too and apparently to many idiots who can honestly believe this some sort of scum ploy..gg fail town.

Why is it a fail town to push for you to follow through with your claims? If Fate is cult, as you're convinced he is, then you shooting him gets rid of him AND confirms that you're town. All you have to do it take one insanity (twitchy, for example) that will barely affect your play at all.

[AurorusVox]

Mod: I'm currently voting for MoI

Thanks, fixed ~Mod.

---

Wickedestjr, please read and/or respond to my wall-o post when you get a chance, in which I answer your questions and concerns. The main thrust is that you've asked me about Benmage/Fate when I'd already covered that in earlier posts.

[AurorusVox]

EBWOP: Oh and Wickedestjr is currently voting for me ^^"

Thanks... ~Mod

[AurorusVox]

Epiphany 1 Revisited:
You are not confirmed town until you act upon your claim to have stalked him. I could say "Hay gaise I stalked Benmage I am clear now amirite?" and of course, NO I'm not clear unless I attempt to murder you. SAYING you stalked does not mean that you did stalk. Your earlier aversion to killing Fate made it look like you didn't want to act upon your claim = made it look like you were lying about it.

Epiphany 2 Revisited:
We could attempt to resuscitate Fate. If you attempt to murder him, he will get a message informing him of such, followed by the "waking up" post of his revival (this PM was publicly available in SA II). This will (a) keep him alive, and (b) practically confirm you as town. There are two problems with this from an outsider's perspective;

(1) if you're both cult (pro acting if you are) then Fate can pretend to have received the PM, thus clearing your name
(2) if you're town and Fate is cult and lies, saying that he never received a PM, it will make you look like you lied. However, I have now figured out a partial solution to this, which is that you promise to NOT launder and someone investigates you N2, thus confirming that you're bloody i.e. that you did in fact attempt to murder [Fate].

[AurorusVox]

AV, did you iso me in the signup thread like I asked?

Yes and there's nothing there that confirms you as town. Nice way to completely ignore my LOGICAL deconstruction of your argument that I'm the one being illogical.

[AurorusVox]

Personally, I think he is an investigator going murderer based on his reaction to the pressure which looks townish. Thoughts?

That sums up my read of Furc, as stated in my "Epic Catchup Post of Fail." Do you think he'd still try to go Murderer despite the pressure (or wagon) he's under at the moment? I.e. do you think he'd rather ride the town-wincon now that he's seen people are already suspicious of him, or stick to his guns and try to murderfy people?

[AurorusVox]

EBWOP: Actually though, I think Furc DID use Ward which is at odds with the murderer's optimum strategy, in which case, he probably isn't going to go down the murderer's route.

[AurorusVox]

if I had buddies to save me they would have. AND they would have ress'd me tonight.

Not if you're Cult and you all forgot to look for Res Kits

But I'm happy to see it done your way. Someone should Res you anyway just in case, y'know... >_>"

[AurorusVox]

VOTE: AV
Spyrex's cases on you are very compelling and I've yet to see anything out of you that significantly refutes them.

This is for SpyreX too. As far as I can tell, the original vote was because of:

(a) Weakness of reads
I am not superhuman; I can't make awesomereads on 10+ pages of posts, after 15+ hours of working, at midnight. My initial post was poor, yes. I have since moved on and given a plethora of reads. If you don't agree with them, that's not my problem

(b) Unstable read on Furc
I've actually fought with you (MoI) against his lynch and disproved your mistaken assumptions, thereby planting myself firmly behind TOWN FURC, so I fail to see how you can still hold this as a valid argument. On the matter of conflicting reads, I'm actually pretty surprised that SpyreX doesn't understand that I argue myself into the wall from my behaviour in a certain Graveyard QT we're in together.

(c) Not voting for Benmage
If I was concerned with making myself appear townie, I would have voted for Benmage a long time ago. However, I'd rather be PROVED WRONG about him, and thereby let town have a CONFIRMED TOWNIE than trying to push for a lynch to stroke my ego and/or appear town. Do you honestly think that lynching Ben is the solution to my suspicions in this SPECIFIC instance? Of course,

ordinarily

, if you find someone scummy, you'd vote for them - but if they are the ONLY person in the town who can prove that they are town (

at night

), why the hell would you want to lynch them?!

@SpyreX's #547

Actually no. Now that Fate has made his offer of the Occult Book test, there's no longer any reason for Benmage to kill Fate, and this is something that I acknowledged before your post. Read plz kthx.

[AurorusVox]

El Goosuki's play IS LENDING CREDENCE TO FURC/ELG SCUMTEAM THEORIES>

jus' sayin

How can you CONTINUE to believe Furc is scum? Even MoI, one of the biggest proponents of the scumFurc idea, has dropped his case because he sees it makes no logical sense whatsoever.

I'll also open this question up to Baby Spice, Seacore, SSBF and xVart.

[AurorusVox]

EBWOP: Let me be clearer actually

Do you really think Furc warded one of his scumpartners?

[AurorusVox]

I don't like AurorusVox's vote for MagnaofIllusion. Magna's comment you quoted was not reaching at all imo.

Wow, I went back and re-read the quote, and I misread it the first time. I

thought

he had suggested that all Furc had to do was to (actually) ward the target of the cult's craft fetish. What he's actually saying is that he could have just crafted a fetish of his claimed ward target. I don't know how that happened.

I had assumed that I had gotten my quotes mixed up and ISO'd Magna to get the right quote, and in doing that I've realised that he hasn't really been tunelling Furc that much either; Furc has been the focus of his scumhunt but he's dealt with other things too (moreso after Plum's prompt, but he did talk to others before that too). This is where I put my tail between my legs and pull this face as I

Unvote

.

---

Benmage however is more likely town as he is setting himself up to be a murderer suspect which cannot be in his personal beest interrest and is vaguely testable.

Ben is most definately not town.

I strongly suspect that Ben wants/wanted to go murderer hence what I said.

I'm not liking this from

Baby Spice

. What did Ben do to cause this shift from "more likely town" to "most definitely not town"?
The vote on Furc also doesn't sit well with me, as it could be opportunistic, and he accuses Furc of flailing which - if Furc has a reputation as VI - is an easy excuse for scum to give when voting.

Regarding Seacore

I've done a quick ISO, and whilst I don't see too much there to pin him as the biggest obvScum, his reluctance to vote Benmage despite thinking he's going to be a danger to the town caught my attention. That's ironic coming from me, I know - but I'd argue that its not hypocritical, because Seacore has never once expressed an interest in seeing Benmage clear himself as town at night (i.e. the whole reason why I don't want to lynch Benmage). His vote for Furc came after the Percypost which could be opportunistic scum.

SSBF's

vote on Furc is probably the least opportunistic. I think Furc is playing scummy but I'm treating that as VI since I don't see why he'd lie about warding AND not hearing a noise as scum (I've gone over this with MoI). I'd like SSBF's take on this argument.

xvart's

vote was from way back when and he promised to look over it again in light of the mod's comments.

Taking into account my previous reads as well, Baby Spice is looking the most opportunistic and contradictory of voters so far.

Vote: Baby Spice

---

Oh, good to see SpyreX is here.

A.) How many of these reads aren't prefaced with some kinda garbage. (Pro-tip: You say HITO might go murderer but are A-OK with Ben's kill fate plan because he might be lying?)

Hmm, let's see, in that post I had:

MoI - scummy (since changed)
Furc - town
Fate - town
Benmage - scummy
Lost Butterfly - scummy
Totallynotmafia - town
Bowser - scummy? (asked for clarification)
Hito - town (the murder comment was a joke, wasn't that obvious?)
Andrius - scummy

I didn't realise that "reasons" were considered garbage or that I had to make it look like that to count as a read, whoops [/sarcasm]

We can now add:

Baby Spice - scummy
Seacore - scummy

B.) Its not "unstable". Its "Ohh snap he's town but could be MURDERER CULT EXTRODINARE ohh wait the mod clearly made that not be the case lets just go back to town."

MOST of what I said in my first post leant him being town/murderer, because they're the

same thing

at this point. There are no murderers, there are only townies - who MAY become murderers. And there was one

offhand

comment about him potentially being cult. Since then that's settled onto Town, and I've been very vocal about it. I didn't realise that reads had to be concrete from the very start, Mr. SpyreX, sir.

C.)HAHAHAHA no.
No. How in the hell does that work?

Um. You think it's suspect that I didn't vote. You think it's suspect that I didn't vote for Benmage. What would have solved both of those problems? Why, by golly, voting Benmage.

Not ordinarily. Always. And forever. ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE GOING TO KILL.

Unless, you want that kill to happen.

Herpaderpa, THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. I've been saying that I *do* want the kill to be attempted, to get a CLEAR TOWNIE. Is that not worth

not

lynching someone today?

This is gonna be real clear since you're all about omg read page and opt to leave out Ben's nested "I'm going to kill Fate" post RIGHT ABOVE THIS ONE.

Before this day ends Ben is either going to a.) say he's not going to kill fate or b.) get lynched.

Luckily, Fate claims to have gone for the Occult Book, and I'm under the impression that THAT is the strategy that we're going to use (i.e. Benmage WON'T kill OR get lynched because we can clear him ANOTHER way).


If Benmage says he is going to kill Fate tonight, would you try to have him lynched instead?

[AurorusVox]

RC THO. FURC MAY BE TOWN NOW, BUT HE IS (WJR MADE GOOD CASE) GOING MURDERER. WHAT SAY YOU TO THAT? ROPE NOW OR LATER? HOW LATER IS LATER? WHAT DO WE DO MR. TOWN?!

Does this mean you think that Furc Stalked N0?

YO AV WHY AM I "SCUMMY"? YOU MENTION ME ONCE AND THEN DONT EVEN FOS/VOTE ME WHATEVS. I CALL SHENANIGANS.

I generally don't like FoSing, and I (mistakenly >_>") felt MoI was scummier so he got my vote. Maintaining an RV despite having a FoS this late into the game is what made me suspicious of you. It was a scummy action and I still don't know why you've not voted for Bowser. It doesn't look like he's provided much more content since you posted, especially considering that you didn't engage with him in this latest post at all except indirectly through me :\

[AurorusVox]

3.) You DO say, without an amazing amount of equivocation, that Fate is town. You then proceed to want him shot in the face. Bravo!

Actually, I had formulated a plan for keeping him alive via resuscitation whilst still testing the validity of the kill even in the event of scumFate. AFAIK Fate would still receive the death PM and then the "revival" PM and so we could test the stalk claim AND keep Fate alive; if he's town, he tells the truth, and if he's scum and says he received no PM, we can test Benmage for blood. Did you skim over that bit?

4.) You say you think Ben is lying but want him to take the shot.

Since him taking the shot would prove whether he is lying or not. The shot tests the lie tests the man. It's kind of essential :\

5.) You say you like Lost Butterfly's early posts (3 of them) but think they're scum for a laundry list of reasons. Why in the hell do you mention the first three posts if this is the dealio?

Someone said it looked like I was buddying LB. I was saying that I did like his earlier posts, which might make it look like sucking up. But that changed.

9.) Hell no you didn't say "scummy". You said "I don't like" that's one of those quantifications that are so awesome.

Why would I notlike it if I found it townie? I forgot I had to spell everything out.

This also begs if you're gonna show me all your fatreads why didn't you mention: Me, Furpants, Reaper.

Whoops.
You = town
Furpants = unsure; his vote on you is odd but I liked his first posts
Reaper = got townier as the game progressed

See, this is the crux of it. Stalking N0? That's not town. It flat out isn't. This isn't a matter of debate. If there's 5 deaths tonight are you gonna go "OHH SNAP EVERYONE KILLIN PEOPLE COME FORWARD FOR YOUR CONFIRMED TOWN HATS!" No.

Because they wont. Because they're trying to kill people. In the bad way.

This last line made me chuckle.

Anyway; you're right of course. Stalking only indicates investigator N0 which is not the same as town at endgame, but stalking is an action that is available to all people who are currently of town persuasion, i.e. they both indicate "not cult". You can take it further and say that they're both uninformed minorities, out there on their own. They would both react in similar ways.

:headdesk: :headdesk:

No. Its REAL suspect when you go "Fate's town. Benmage is scummy. Yea, go ahead and kill him Ben so you can be AWESOME TOWND".

Due to the presence of Res. Kits, Ben shooting Fate =/= Ben killing Fate. I've addressed this point already.

Yea, if you had went "Benmage is scummy, Vote:" We wouldn't be having this talk but in that world made of cheese and flowers you'd be town sooo. [...] AND ITS NOT A CLEAR TOWNIE AND KILLING SOMEONE YOU THINK IS TOWN ISNT USEFUL OR GOOD IN ANY FASHION MY GODDDD
Unless, REALLY, you're trying to straightface go "Ohh, Ben? The n0 stalker that took suicidial? Said he was going to kill regardless of the overall wishes? No way he'd kill again!"

Voting for Benmage today is depriving town of the potential for a confirmed "not-cult", which I think is not in the town's best interests (I've modified from confirmed-townie to not-cult as I think that makes more sense). There are multiple scum, and we can leave lynching Benmage until later. Since he has outed himself as potential murder suspect, we can watch him very closely; we can prevent his first kill on Fate, which means he'd have to make it to N6 to even turn into a murderer, and N8 to get his winning kill. We could even save lynching him as late as D8 before he gets that chance, and have a confirmed "not-cult" for that length of time. See, I

have

put thought into this, I'm not just saying LOLOL DONT LYNCH BEN HE SCUM LOL.

AND RIGHT ABOVE THE FIRST POST THAT STARTED THIS BEN VERY CLEARLY SAID HE THINKS FATE IS LYING AND (THUS) IS GOING TO SHOOT.

Yes GOD I SAID THAT EXACTLY WHAAAAAAAA

:explode:

Ok, deep breaths.

Well, we probably have more than one Res. Kit and we can prevent the kill even if he tries. vOv

So, why do you want to lynch the person who can confirm that they are not affiliated with the cult?

This is the dealio and maybe someone else can look at this rosetta stone straight faced and go "ohh yea makes total sense bro"

1.) AV thinks Ben is scummy.
2.) AV thinks Fur is town.
3.) AV thinks Fate is town.

-) AV thinks Fur (note, not Ben who claimed the Stalk) is setting up to be a murderer.
-) AV thinks Ben (note, the guy who is scummy) should kill Fate (note, the guy who is town) to prove his town powers.

I need this thought process explained to me in such a way that isn't ACTUALLY "Well, lets be sure to put some pressure on the 'confirmed' but back off when it wont and let Ben do some dirty work for us before he gets lynched for said dirty work"

-) I don't think Fur is setting up to be a murderer. I thought that in my "Catchup Post of Fail", but have since stated that I believe he DID take the Ward action, which makes no sense for someone who wants to go down the murderer route. In fact, I argued MoI into conceding that Furc probably did Ward, so much so that he backed down from his Furc vote, so you can't say I'm just jumping on someone else's coattails on that argument.

-) Should "try" to kill Fate since that will prove he is not-cult which is pretty damned good tradeoff for me being wrong, especially considering that we can res Fate to stop him dying anyway. And if he can't shoot Fate, then we have confirmed scum. Not to mention I'm not the only one to go for it - even

Plum

admitted it was necessary;

"I have a problem. I NEED Benmage to carry out his kill tonight otherwise he drowns us in WIFOM stew. Do not want. On the other hand, am very much leaning Town on Fate. HALP."

---

AV, are you, and others, voting me over a confusion in terminology that I have already addressed?

No, I'm using your own terms. You said "more likely town as he is setting himself up to be a murderer suspect" i.e. he is less likely to go down the murder route because he has explicitly set himself up as a murderer. Then you said "most definately not town" (these are your own words, it's your contradiction not my misinterpretation). Then you said "I strongly suspect that Ben wants/wanted to go murderer" which also doesn't mesh with the first thing.

[AurorusVox]

@Feysal

Thanks, the plan emerged after realising that (a) we needed to keep Fate alive, and (b) we needed to test Fate wasn't lying, which are kind of contradictory things, but I think the plan - though it's not watertight - does have its merits. But if Benmage doesn't shoot he needs to tell us before the night phase :S

---

ASSVOROUX:

REZ KITS SHOULD NOT BE WASTED ON TOWN ON TOWN VIOLENCE. THIS ENCOURAGES INSANITY OF BOTH KINDS

WHAT THE HELL

Wtf is this aversion to insanities?! You can pick something like "Twitchy" and it's FINE if we know the reason for it.

And even if Benmage doesn't shoot/kill you, we still need to Res you tonight because if you use Occult Books on Benmage - but then get killed by, I don't know,

the cult

- we'll then have no idea if it was Ben-as-cult or someone-else-framing-Ben-as-cult. Why don't you want Res kits?! If you've actually got a res kit yourself and were lying about the occult books, now would be the time to admit it.

---

If he is lying (either about going Murderer or being Cult) then he has an insanity (either from Stalk or Craft Fetish) [...] Can someone double check my thinking and resolution/insanities? Are there any flaws in this?

Yes; those flaws being
(a) Do you really believe he stalked N0? If so why do you think that he claimed to

not

hear any noise, when his previous experience with SA would have pointed to Warders hearing noise?
(b) You only get an insanity from crafting three Fetishes in one night. If he crafted two, he would NOT have received any insanities.

---

I can get on board with either a Seacore or a Baby Spice vote; my reasons for finding them suspicious are pretty similar.

Vote: Seacore

[AurorusVox]

9.) Hell no you didn't say "scummy". You said "I don't like" that's one of those quantifications that are so awesome.

Why would I notlike it if I found it townie? I forgot I had to spell everything out.

Oh look, I did actually spell it out;

I don't like the fact that

Andrius

has RVS'd VasudeVa but then FoS'd (rather than voted) Bowser. Considering that Bowser has a five-strong wagon by the time of his post (#342),

it looks very suspicious to me.

He continues to keep the VasudeVa RV through the rest of his catchup posts.

---

@Fate

Do you really think Furc warded one of his scumpartners?

[AurorusVox]

Ojanen

Who is this person? ._."

[AurorusVox]

Gotcha, thanks ^^"

[AurorusVox]

Fate isn't scum in my view. So there is no reason to kill him. No reason to waste Occult books on benmage because its pretty apparent that benmage stalked, I see no scum advantage to why someone would throw themselves under the bus by openly admitting a stalk. xvart in Post #627 brings up a good idea, the Commune should go to Furcolow to clear him up further.

What would you recommend we do with Benmage then? And I've already pointed out two flaws in xvart's plan, so no, it's not a good idea.

Wtf is this aversion to insanities?! You can pick something like "Twitchy" and it's FINE if we know the reason for it.

I don't like this. Insanities should be discouraged highly, as most insanity gaining actions are not pro-Investigator. Opening the gates for insanities, as long as they are supposedly explained, allows too much room for cult/murderer actions under the guise of supposed actions.

You're perfectly happy to tell Fate to waste his Commune on Furc, and thus gain an insanity; but when I suggest it's okay to get an insanity for a similar (and more effective plan) you "don't like it."

[AurorusVox]

And I've already pointed out two flaws in xvart's plan, so no, it's not a good idea.

But the flaws are flaws in determining if he is Cult; not determining if he is lying investigator going Murderer.

I find it highly unlikely that he stalked.

- Furc played in SA II, and in SA II, when warding, you hear a noise regardless of whether anyone visits you
- If Furc lied about Warding (i.e. if he stalked someone) then he would have claimed to have heard a noise, since as far as he would have known, he SHOULD have heard a noise
- Thus, I do not believe he is lying about Warding

- If he warded, then it is very unlikely that he is going murder route
- Occult Book wasted

Benmage should be just read for his play, as hito has suggested. With his claimed stalk its obvious that he is more likely currently an investigator, we just need to keep an eye that he doesn't turn murderer, which can be accomplished by having him graverobbing.

Your plan of having Fate killed and resuscitated results in double the insanities and the waste of a rez kit to check something that should be obvious anyway. I don't think Fate should be killed, he isn't playing scum, whats the point of giving both players an extra insanity and the use of someone's rez kit when you can see that the motivation for benmage's claiming of stalk makes him investigator-ish, so both players are likely town?

Are we reading the same Benmage play here?

- He did not claim to have stalked Fate UNTIL Furc said that anyone who stalked would be clear. Importantly, he did not realise that he would be forced to prove that he stalked
- He still tried to lynch Fate and fought against the idea of shooting Fate; probably because he never stalked in the first place
- Only after a number of people pointed out that this was BAD did he assent to shooting Fate.

What I'm saying is that him claiming to have stalked does not mean that he did stalk.

Essentially, we're arguing the same thing but on different players. I see Furc's claim as practically watertight, but I see a lot of wiggle room for Benmage to fakeclaim. You see Benmage's claim as practically watertight and wiggle room on Furc to fakeclaim.

[AurorusVox]

Does your plan involve Fate using his commune, or just surviving the shot?

I guess there's no reason why he couldn't Commune, but if we were still planning on testing Benmage's shooting plan, and Benmage

was

legit, that would make Fate take two insanities in one night (which is worse that two people taking one insanity each). Culting Benmage will not work to check if he stalked (I believe the side-effects of Cower/Launder (insanity) will resolve before the Commune checks for insanity), so it would be a waste to use it on him.

[AurorusVox]

Are you fucking kidding me......points conceded.....you must be fucking joking....what did I claim stalk on PG 2,3?? You two .....hilarious.

Pew pew, post numbers prove it, pew pew

unless someone decided to admit they stalked someone and kill them tomorrow. If this is the case, it could be really good for us, or really bad. If they behave as confirmed town, and don't ever stalk then kill again, it could be really good for us.

Whatchya talkin bout willis?

I'm saying if someone wanted to say "I stalked ____", and then they perform the kill, they are confirmed town

Read

I

between

stalked

the

Fate

lines

[AurorusVox]

@AurorusVox:

Why is Andy's Bowser FoS + VasVote suspicious? If Andy flips scum, who do you think is his buddy? Also, what do you think of MoI?

--prev-edit--
ohJoy, LB is scum with Bowser. Yay!

It's suspicious because he has gotten a legitimate reason to vote for someone, but opted to ignore that in favour of a random vote on you - an RV which he still holds. He said he was waiting to see if more content came from Bowser -- which hasn't happened -- but still hasn't voted for him. I think he is using his "comical" history with you to maintain a random vote and sidestep discussing many of the matters that other players are engaging in. I would be suspicious of Bowser as his partner (vote someone + FoS partner for distancing) but it doesn't necessarily have to be that; he could be using the Bowser FoS (who had a number of votes on him) to mingle with town and give off appearances of looking for a better place for his vote when, in fact, he has no intention of changing it.

I was really suspicious of MoI for what I thought was tunnelling, and what I thought was a really bad argument on Furc to augment the tunnelling; but then with a prompt from Wicked, I realised that I had mis-read the quote/argument, and when I ISO'd him, I saw that he hadn't really tunnelled after all. It kinda knocked the wind out of my MoI suspicions. He's been ready and willing to concede some points on Furc, and I've now gone to a neutral (leaning slightly town) read.


If you think Bowser is scum, what do you make of Andy's FoS on Bowser whilst he still has an RV on you?

[AurorusVox]

Look after I confirm myself...you're the first one to hang. Period.

Lol, I'd like to hear the reasoning for where that came from other than you trying to stop me convincing people you could be scum. Although I've said that I want you to PROVE that you're legit rather than just accept blindly that you're legit, if you

are

legit, sure I'll have egg on my face, but I'll actually be happy that you're confirmed not-cult.

[AurorusVox]

... is this how this works?

According to SAII, that's how it works. The target receives different flavour depending on whether they're targeted by a murder or a ritual, and also is notified if they were resuscitated. Therefore if Fate is town and lives til tomorrow, he can tell us whether he was murdered or ritualised. If he's scum and lies, we can still check Benmage with the "Investigate" action N2 to see if he did in fact try to murder Fate (so long as he doesn't launder); and then we can prevent him from going murderer as others have suggested. The only place where this plan fails is if they're both scum.

Why waste the Res Kits on a bad action?

Because I once believed Fate was town. I'm not so sure now.* But I think keeping him alive and seeing what he tells us can get him cleared/caught either way.

*Furc's Scum (S)Quad is looking pretty interesting, so I'm starting to wonder if Fate might be cult after all. If he is cult, then he has to choose whether to tell the truth and give us a confirmed not-cult; or lie about it and get caught out. If enough people are FOR shooting but AGAINST res'ing, then I can let it go, but I'd prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to killing...

What is the larger dealio with Stalks? I mean all this talk of stalk = town = profit suuree

isn't

seems like a bad idea and come wagon time if another stalk claim comes through?

I don't think any more people should stalk to confirm themselves; from now on, I'd treat stalk claims as cult trying to get a clear, especially after the trouble we're having with this one. Unless town sanctions a stalk/kill, I don't think people should set out of their own accord to do it. That way, if someone DOES stalk, we know they're trying to secretly go the murderer route.

"I have a problem. I NEED Benmage to carry out his kill tonight otherwise he drowns us in WIFOM stew. Do not want. On the other hand, am very much leaning Town on Fate. HALP."

There is no WIFOM. There is no stew.

Benmage, period, can not be left to endgame unless its a flat sweep. That's just how it is.

That was Plum's quote, so she might want to respond to this too.

Of course Benmage can't make it to endgame. But if we prevent his kill tonight, there is no way he can win as murderer until N8. We have PLENTY of time to lynch him before that.

[AurorusVox]

If that's how it works I'm fumbling through something but isn't there the potential to, sans failure, clear whole swaths of people?

You mean repeat the cycle of stalk-kill-res-investigate-clear on other players?

It's quite possible, that with enough planning, it could work to clear people as not-cult. But I'm not sure if we'd be able to stop all those people from going murderer; it works with one claimed stalker because we can keep tabs on them/make them graverob; but when you start to roll this out on multiple people, things are going to get complicated fast. Also, it only truly works on people who we are sure aren't cult together - such as Benmage/Fate - because if we try it on two cultists, they'll just clear each other.

The other spanner in the works is that we'll have to publicly announce the stalk/murder targets so that no one wards the stalker's target, or at the very least so that the resuscitation can take place. If the Cult have crafted a Fetish of the Stalker's claimed target, then they know they can kill the stalker's target and (potentially) frame the claimed stalker, unless we dedicate two, or even three resuscitates to the target. Then if they die from cult, you get into WIFOM where we assume a cult-flavoured death is a framed claimed stalker, when the actual claimed stalker really was cult all along, cult-killing their claimed stalker target. Then you get even more WIFOM when you consider that other players may have stalked, and later killed, the claimed stalker's target, or someone uses resuscitate on the resuscitator, in order to frame the resuscitator as not saving the claimed stalker's target. And then your head explodes.

tl;dr version:
It could work, but probably won't.

---

Ninja:
Hmm, can you expand on the idea of "groups of 2-3"? It might solve some of the problems above but I'm not sure I follow what you mean.

Also, if you're planning on having it all go down in the same night, you run the risk of Chaos (stalker, target and resuscitator will all get bloody).

[AurorusVox]

I'm on page 24 atm and it took a large portion of the town that long to realize that furc is an investigator. Even that was only after Spyrex had to type out a giant wall explaining it.
[...]
AV is a general mess of backpedaling and "whoopsie daisy, don't attack me any more for that because I didn't mean what I said"
[...]
I'm still holding out hope that someone besides Spyrex starts making sense here soon

You do realise I was the one to argue, logically and conclusively, that Furcolow was town; not SpyreX, right? I'm pretty sure that the wall of text you're referring to is one that I wrote. I also argued that the Drippereth ward was unambiguous

before

SpyreX did. I find it quite hilarious that the praise you throw on SpyreX actually came from me, despite me being "a general mess."

[AurorusVox]

When I finish my reread, I'll go back and quote the things I think you've back tracked on. If I'm reading something wrong, then I'll let you off the hook. Furc = town has been fucking obv. since page three. And I'm pretty certain I just read your argument for that on like page 26 or something like that. I'll check back later for post numbers. Do you deny that you've backtracked several times this game?

In my first post, I offered reasons for Furc being all three possible alignments; since then I've said he was town. You can call it backtracking, I'd call it sorting out my read. I don't see why my read has to be the same from start to finish in a game.

You might think Furc = town was "obvious," but I didn't see you logically proving it to convince others to unvote him.

Regarding post/page numbers;
Post #492 I argue that Drippereth was unambiguous (p.20); I clarify why I think that Furc is town with reference to SA II in #500 (start of p.21). MoI unvoted in #502, citing my argument; SpyreX argued for it being a technical error in #547 (p.22).

[AurorusVox]

You might think Furc = town was "obvious," but I didn't see you logically proving it to convince others to unvote him.

He claimed a fucking ward and a mod error with that ward AND that he didn't hear noise even though he didn't know the rules had changed regarding ward. Does it really take someone spelling it out before people can get that? I don't think there is anything that could be more obvious than Furc's investigator status and I'm suspicious of the people that were trying their damndest to shovel shit on him because they know they can rile him up and potentially get him mislynched.

So why aren't you questioning the people that didn't unvote UNTIL I had spelt it out? I have spent the last ten or so pages convincing people, who STILL want to believe he stalked or is cult, that he DID actually Ward. You can't call me out on explaining it late in the day when there are still people who DON'T believe he's pro-town.

Re: posts/pages
My point is that it shouldn't have taken actual town 20 pages to figure out Furc is town. You appear to have explained it before SpyreX, which is fine, but that only makes it slightly better imo. I feel that your first post was definitely meant to test the waters of calling him scummy. Why else would you "offer reasons" for him to be all three alignments without taking a solid stance on his alignment? All of the same evidence has been there from the beginning.

The fact is that those twenty pages took like, what, a day? It's no good commenting on how "long" it took me to comment on it, when it came in what was my proper dedicated catchup post. Sure, if it had taken me a week to make the argument, then fine, go ahead and say I should have known it sooner - but come on, this is a game with a page explosion we're talking about. Not quite the same thing. Or does every thought you have immediately appear in your mind, fully formed, so you don't have to take time to actually think about things and process the possibilities?

[AurorusVox]

Yellow reads does irritate me.

VOTE: AurorusVox

Is this an RV? At this stage in the game?

VP, do you want Wicked's particular version of the Benmage plan, or will any do? I think mine is a pretty fine version, because it accounts for Fate and Ben being town/town, town/scum, and scum/town.

[AurorusVox]

Righto. Here's the plan in all it's bullet-point (no pun intended) glory.

-The target of a kill receives different flavour depending on whether they're targeted by a murder or a ritual.
-Therefore if Fate lives until tomorrow, he can tell us whether he was murdered or ritualised, or not attacked at all. I believe the suggestion was that SSBF be the one to resuscitate Fate.
-If Fate says he was murdered, that clears Benmage as being non-cult (unless we believe that they are both cult together)
-If Fate says he was cult-killed, we lynch Benmage. We can then ascertain Benmage's role by graverob; if he was an investigator, we have caught Fate out as cult. Otherwise, we've lynched cult.
-If Fate says he wasn't attacked at all, we can check Benmage with the "Investigate" action N2 to see if he did in fact try to murder Fate. So long as Ben doesn't launder, he will be bloody if he murders; if he's bloody, he attempted a kill and we have caught Fate out as cult. If he's clean, then we've caught Ben out as cult.
-If Ben is confirmed non-cult, we can prevent him from going murderer with graverobs and by paying close attention to him. If his kill is prevented tonight, he can't win until N8 anyway.
-The only place where this plan fails is if they're both cult.

[AurorusVox]

Ok, so the murder goes through before the ritual, meaning that Fate can state if he was attempted murdered. What if cult kill him on top of that just to make Ben look bad? I assume the rez would stop the murder first and then it would look like he was cult killed. Though I guess SSBF then claims if he rezzed or not....though the greater ritual would negate that too. I'm also still not sure on the significance of SSBF doing the rezzing, or does that not matter.

That's where it gets a little grey. I do have a way around it, but I'm not sure it's considered ethical. I'm going to PM the mod to find out and then if it's okay, I'll say what it is.

In the meantime I've been trying to figure out an ethical way around it. This was where I started;
#1
- Investigate Ben to see if he's bloody, since the ritual does not cause blood
-The problem here is if he picks the mutilation insanity, which always makes him appear bloody.

There is another way, but it involves a lot of insanities;
#2
- Someone robs the grave of the lynched and searches for the occult books tonight, giving them 1 insanity
- They then rob another grave N2 (this resolves before they commune with Ben), getting them 2 insanities (in total)
- We instruct Ben to cower on N2, which should put him on 3 insanities (stalk + murder + cower).
- When the commune checks the insanities, if Ben is the cult, he will have, at most, 2 insanities (ritual + cower)
- If the commune returns a "not more insane" result, Ben is cult.
- Only problem with this is if Ben is cult and picked Denial as his first insanity. Well, and the fact that two players will now be on 3 insanities...

If we do both simultaneously, then we minimise the risk of cult backing each other up.

[AurorusVox]

=_=" I forgot about the triple threat of fetishes. AND I guess a fellow cultist could pass him a fetish of himself. Right, well #2 is off the table then.

Luckily, I've discovered a way to make #1 work that is still ethical.

We instruct Ben to launder N4 and investigate him for blood that night too, to see if he picked Mutilation. The results should be Bloody N3 and Not Bloody N4. Is there a way around that?

[AurorusVox]

We instruct Ben to launder N4 and investigate him for blood that night too, to see if he picked Mutilation. The results should be Bloody N3 and Not Bloody N4. Is there a way around that?

cult can have res kits
res kits can cause blood
WIFOM on #1 too

EBWOP: I meant "launder N3" and therefore Bloody N2 and Not Bloody N3.

---

Hmm. "All Cultists who selected Participate in the Ritual gain an Insanity. If the target was not Murdered, they also become Bloody, even if the kill was prevented by Resuscitate."

Mod: Is the "they" in this sentence the Cultists, or the target?

---

@Furc;

- The res kit only makes you bloody if you protect someone from a kill
- You become bloody AFTER the killing action resolves
- The investigate action resolves before the killing action, i.e. before the resuscitator has become bloody
- Ben can't get bloody from a res kit before he's been checked by investigate unless he searched for one N0 and uses it to protect Fate (which would leave Fate alive, and make this entire back up plan unnecessary)
- If he's bloody and Fate is dead, he got bloody on N1, but not from resuscitate
- If the answer to my above question is "the target" then this has to come from murdering. If the answer is "the Cultists," then we're screwed and I might just cry myself to sleep

[AurorusVox]

Sorry, but I just asked about this, and Percy said in his reply that the target is not told whether he was targeted by Murder or Ritual. See post #815.

[...]

I'm pretty sure it is the cultists. It would make no sense for the target to become bloody, when the purpose of the Ritual is that the target becomes dead.

And this means we can't confirm Benmage, except by letting him kill Fate, since a successful kill would have flavor. As hitogoroshi said, Fate can't confirm Benmage with the Occult Books either, since cult could easily take one insanity for him to detect. That's it then, we can't confirm Benmage without sacrificing Fate, and because that's insane we should talk Benmage out of it.

FML.

So we can confirm him only by letting the kill go through? FMLFMLFML.

Skimming some...Why would I cower n2? Shouldn't I rob grave fate for the reveal, if I am aiming to get an insanity?

The idea on the cowering was (a) because the communer needed to get an insanity and still commune (rob grave is a free action; so it made sense for the communer to rob the grave), AND (b) at that point we wouldn't know if you were scum or not so I wouldn't have suggested letting you rob graves...It doesn't matter now, my plan has been shot down in flames.

Get a poll going. So far there's so many people on opposing sides of the argument.

the decisions going to be mine.

You suggest that it's up to everyone, and then in the next post you say it's entirely your choice. What is it, and why did you change your mind in the space of two posts?

D4/5 you can worry about

possible murders like furc

or if you actually think I'd go murderer.

Why do you think Furc is a possible murderer?

[AurorusVox]

D4/5 you can worry about

possible murders like furc

or if you actually think I'd go murderer.

Why do you think Furc is a possible murderer?

I recall that being mentioned....Was it not?

I'm asking why YOU think he's a possible murderer. Saying "someone said he might be" isn't a good enough reason.

You suggest that it's up to everyone, and then in the next post you say it's entirely your choice. What is it, and why did you change your mind in the space of two posts?

I said if you can get 27 people to agree.... I go on to say you wont. So it will be my decision. Try and keep up.

The idea of a poll suggests democracy, i.e. majority rules. If we had 66% of people say shoot, would you shoot? What about 75%? 90%?

[AurorusVox]

Additionally AV what's the deal with "I was totally the first to say Fur was town" being absolutely full of lies?

There's a difference between SAYING someone is town, and logically ARGUING that someone is town. VP was calling me out for being late to call Furc town, which I found ironic considering he was praising you for arguing that Furc was town, when in fact you were the one that SAID he was town and I was the one that ARGUED it logically (proof of this: MoI explicitly only unvoted due to my explanation). He also praised you for being the one to bring up the non-ambiguous thing, which I had already done previously; if he's calling me scum, and calling you town for doing something that I also did, well, that needed addressing.

---

AurousVox-
Holy fuckING HELL I JUST CTRL+SEACORE AND THE SECOND PAGE OF HIS ISO

DOESN'T MENTION SEACORE ONCE

<- THIS IS THE COMPANY YOU HAVE ON THIS BULLSHIT WAGON. No seriously his ISO mentions Seacore

THREE FUCKING TIMES

-SCUM

So, I've spent the last few days dealing with the setup and trying to figure out the Benmage/Fate thing to result in OPTIMUM WIN (doomed to failure), looking at some other players as they posted and defending/explaining myself to SpyreX (and others). So why haven't I mentioned Seacore? Well...

-His reluctance to vote Benmage despite thinking he's going to be a danger to the town caught my attention; and yet he's never once expressed an interest in seeing Benmage clear himself as town at night
-His vote for Furc came after the Percypost which could be opportunistic scum.

His response was: "I wanted other people's opinions," and "I'm unvoting Furc." Not really that compelling. Since then, he asked the mod a question, and the next time he posted was not until last night (he's been V/LA). The next time I logged in after his post, I was on for about half an hour and I didn't really want to start getting into them since I was preparing to go to bed; so I just responded to what was directed at me (Feysal, Benmage) and logged out.

The problem with ISO is that you lose all of this extra context. Y'know, like, Seacore wasn't posting, like I was doing other things at the time. Hey, Fate, what do you make of Andy?

---

As for Seacore's recent posts (irony)

My inclination has been to just assume LB and BS are investigators, but I've realised that's because most of the people who accused them accused me, and I KNOW that they were wrong about the latter. But I'm going to go back and look at them in ISO.

He "assumed" people were town because the people who were accusing them were...accusing him? Riiight. If you're going to dispense town reads you should probably do more than just assume. If when you ISO them, they defended you, can you explain whether you think FYPOV its good defending (town on town) or bad defending (scum on town).

It seems

the majority of people

are demanding a cult targeted lynch rather than a general scummy one (i.e. Not going after a potential murderer) so I'll leave off the Benmage thing for now.

Which would

you

rather see: a cult or potential murderer swing? And why?

Absolutely. If I was in your position, based on Fate's post alone, I would definitely be suspicious of him and I.

Fate

- Seacore seems to think that your potential slip should be read by the majority of people as a definite slip. What do you make of that?

Seacore

- what town/scum motivation do you think that post served?

Since then, people have mentioned that Benmage can be thoroughly examined and attacked in later Days, and this satisfies me.

^A lie. This was mentioned pretty much from the very start, before Benmage claimed stalk. Can you explain this?

I attacked Furc because, to me, it seems he's been caught out on a lie. I find it hard to believe that Percy would not have at least clarified why El Gooski got the target. [...] furc has likely lied.

Seacore, did you see any of the arguments suggesting that (a) Furc had to Ward, or (b) the message would be considered unambiguous? I'm not sure how you can still think he's lying. In this crazy world, do you think it's more likely that he Stalked, or Crafted a Fetish?

Your list of certain scum? Please wait until I'm lynched and revealed as somebody with 0 insanity points before you answer that.

The whole zero insanity thing seems like he wants to cause confusion D2, where we think he's town but he's actually scum. So we spend D2 operating under false assumptions and give his buddies a bit of breathing room.

I just feel there's evidence heavily suggesting that you have lied about your night action, whether you have lied about your action, target or both

Could you expand on this "heavy evidence"? Also, don't you think lying about the target would be very risky: what if El G hadn't heard noise? Unless you think El G is scum?

Placing a vote on him just feels too easy.

You've not voted for most of the game. Surely an easy vote is better than no vote?

---

El G

How about instead of asking for a summary, you actually read the thread like everyone else, and then do something useful with your vote rather than passing off blindly sheeping onto a popular bandwagon as "I don't like yellow"? I find it hard to believe that THREE of you can't keep up with a thread, when individual players are miraculously managing it.

[AurorusVox]

I was admitting that I had some potentially bad subconscious reads, and now that I was back from v/la I was planning on re-examining them. I was certainly not trying to convince anybody they were town.

So that was you simply saying that you hadn't thought to look at them closer because the same person was attacking you? You didn't mention that this was a subconscious thing, and so I thought it was an active interpretation of their play.

I don't know what he's done, I just saw a lie and went "scum". Again, I'm hardly pushing for it anymore, I'm just pointing out that he did something dodgy.

Nice swerve. I asked you if you'd seen the arguments that said he wasn't lying. Have you?

Um, you'll almost certainly graverob me and find out my actual role on the morning of D2, so I don't know where this confusion will come from.

That is very true. I had thought we would be graverobbing you N2, I don't know why. I keep getting my numbers mixed up (I'm no mathematician). I retract that accusation.

For god sake, I've been through this a few times. In my opinion, Percy's post about what he would and would not have clarified does not match up with Furc's claims. You and others don't agree. Fine. Let's move on.

Oh so you've seen the arguments about non-ambiguity. But what about the argument that logically, it makes no sense that Furc would lie about having Warded and say he heard no noise? You say let's move on, but you're

not

moving on, because you're

continuing

to use an illogical reason to maintain calling someone scummy. And that is going to affect your reads for the rest of the day, which isn't helpful in the slightest. Once you've accepted that Furc isn't lying, you can't use "FurcScum" as an excuse to not look at his scum picks more closely.

Yeah, because that's what I need to do while I'm no1 wagon, I need to throw a weak bandwagon vote prior to actually doing some heavy reading. No, I think I'll hold off until I do my reads.

Do you think Bowser needs to post more, and do you think he would be prompted to post more if he had the pressure of a vote on him?

---

AurorusVox - The afore mentioned reaching in the case on me. I'm also a bit unsure about the various plans, there seems to be some obvious misreads of the rules, and I can't tell whether this is deliberate.

Well, I don't think I've been reaching, purposefully or otherwise. One of the points was mistaken, but fmpov you've misunderstood the rest (or maybe we just disagree about them)

And are you honestly suggesting that I'd spend all that effort trying to make a plan watertight to prevent it being defeated by scum - which, incidentally, if I'm scum, would prevent MY TEAM from defeating it? Because y'know, pointing out the flaws in plans and trying to fix them really helps when your aim is to exploit the flaws in plans.

Anyway, if you are suggesting that, then there are two rules that essentially destroyed my plans (all other rules that interfered with it could be worked around);
(1) I thought that you received flavour on being attacked, even if you survived
- this was supported by the fact that in SA II you receive messages when being attacked. It seems logical to assume that you would not receive a message saying "You are drenched in blood, and bear the mental scars of your near-death experience" without first receiving the message containing these near-death experiences.

(2) The rule about "cult getting bloody from participating in the ritual if no murder took place"
- Whilst grammatically speaking, "they" never refers to a single person (i.e. the target - the correct term would be he/she) many people use "they" as a shortcut when the person's gender is unknown. I figured that the target would get bloody from being attacked, and that the cult wouldn't because they send the unspeakable being out, i.e. they don't get near the killing itself, which made it seem that this rule (though grammatically incorrect) referred to the target. However, I actually questioned the mod on this, sooo you can't say I wilfully misread it

[AurorusVox]

What is it with hydra's not keeping up with the game? Triglav has been surprisingly low-impact, El Goosuki and Bowser have been non-entities. That being said, I still don't feel like us just wagoning the lurkers is a strong D1 play here.

I get what you mean, but sometimes putting a wagon on a lurker pressures them into posting. I mean, the wagon analysis on lurkers is like is harder to analyse but not impossible; and if it makes a lurker post, you can always go back to your previous vote. Of course, there is a risk of letting scum hop lurker wagons, but there is also the risk of letting scum lurk. If someone is ONLY voting for lurkers, then I think that might indicate something; if they're doing more than that, then we have more to go on. It's a fine balance.

That was all just a means to get onto the subject of the hydras, though, because I just want to say that El G's latest post is just so...rage-inducing...that I can't tell if it's plain scummy or horribly anti-town, and would appreciate some opinions on the matter.

"Less discussion please; let's lynch asap; I'll vote for anyone."

I want to call him out on this posts, but that would mean engaging with him in that discussion that he hates, so I'm resorting to doing it via you as proxy. Maybe he'll see it and say something, but he's ignored the last question I asked him so I don't hold much hope. But I mean, come on, Percy warned this would be a post-heavy game; and we're not even a week into the game yet. We have NO need to lynch "FAST", and how does lynching with "little discussion" help us in any way at all in the long run? Not to mention "voting for anyone" is horrible for tracking a player's opinions.

/rant

I'll have a look at xvart's list and cross-reference my opinion out with yours (Y)

NinjaSpice, I think you've misunderstood a couple of things, so I'll post those up when I can quote you (in my next post)

[AurorusVox]

Actually, it makes a little more sense if Fate

[I assume you mean BenMage here?]

is trying to avoid the commune, since if he stalked someone else then he'll be killing them and claiming the he didn't kill because fate is still alive. If he was then communed the insanity from the murder would show and proove the lie.

The point of the Commune was to see if Ben has stalked anyone at all, since Fate would have no insanities, and if Ben stalked he would have one without having to go through with the murder. However, if Ben is cult, he can get an insanity

before

the commune resolves, thereby faking that he stalked. So the commune became useless.

So AV you're saying that Furc is too much a VI to properly research a fake ward claim so he really warded?

It actually doesn't matter if he's a VI or a "proper researcher," because

even if

he had looked at the rules, they were only explicitly changed after he claimed that he hadn't heard a noise. Both his previous experience and the rules in this thread would have led him to believe that he SHOULD have heard a noise. And so it makes no sense, if he was lying, that he would have reported warding and also not hearing a noise.

Follow me here. If I have this right a murderer can win by N5, and they only need to suceed with either their first or second attempt, and their third, whereas the cult can win at best by N7.

A murderer cannot win until N6. They need at least three

successful

kills.

[AurorusVox]

MoI, I have never tried to take credit for being the "first" to "say" Furc was town. I'm taking credit for having the first good "argument" for TownFurc - which is evidenced by the fact that I convinced YOU that he was town. If I'm following someone on

that

, then surely you would have been convinced by whoever's coattails I'm supposedly riding that Furc was town. But you weren't. You unvoted two posts after my argument, referencing it specifically. I've emphasised that I'm talking about "argument" vs. "saying" before, did you not read my posts or are you trying to misrep me on purpose?

Yes, a lot of my posts have been mechanics based, but that's because I thought that we could get something awesome from the Ben/Fate situation. I've now accepted defeat, and have turned off mechanics-mode. But I have been trying to keep up with scumhunting too. I think that it was worth dedicating that much time to mechanics when it could have given us a clear and kept Fate alive, but now that it can't, I'll be doing more old-fashioned scumhunting.

[AurorusVox]

Uhh...ERROR, ERROR

Go back to page 39 and look at post #969, apparently posted at 2:50pm earlier today. That was my response to MoI...but it's been posted in the past. Like...wtf?!

For chronological sake, I'll post it again.

---

MoI, I have never tried to take credit for being the "first" to "say" Furc was town. I'm taking credit for having the first good "argument" for TownFurc - which is evidenced by the fact that I convinced YOU that he was town. If I'm following someone on

that

, then surely you would have been convinced by whoever's coattails I'm supposedly riding that Furc was town. But you weren't. You unvoted two posts after my argument, referencing it specifically. I've emphasised that I'm talking about "argument" vs. "saying" before, did you not read my posts or are you trying to misrep me on purpose?

Yes, a lot of my posts have been mechanics based, but that's because I thought that we could get something awesome from the Ben/Fate situation. I've now accepted defeat, and have turned off mechanics-mode. But I have been trying to keep up with scumhunting too. I think that it was worth dedicating that much time to mechanics when it could have given us a clear and kept Fate alive, but now that it can't, I'll be doing more old-fashioned scumhunting.

[AurorusVox]

Seacore, I made a post a few pages back in response to your post in response to my post in response to your latest posts.

Didn't want it to get lost in the timewarp, and I figured it was worth mentioning whilst you were here. It was post #960 ^^"

[AurorusVox]

So I was re-reading the last few pages to keep my vote count checked up, and I noticed this;

All three of us have no idea what's going on.
We really need a summary.
Yeah.

Your vote needs to move from AV to Lost Butterfly because of scummy reactions to accusations on Hydra dissonance.
Yeah.

So El G has been asking for a summary for ages, not even trying to read the thread itself. And here is Fate giving El G a clear instruction and a reason for a vote - but, no, El G maintains its vote on me for having a yellow avatar. El G has been so desperate to be told what to do, and when it's ACTUALLY told what to do -- it doesn't do it. Oh, and look, the next post from El G is:

MINA!!!
I STILL LOVE READING YOUR POSTS.
COULD YOU BE AWESOME AND PUT A GAME SUMMARY WALL FOR ME
THANKS!!!!

ElG / LB scumteam, anyone?

Vote: ElGoosuki

Read the thread yourself or ask to get replaced. You're a dead weight for town, but worse than that, you're purposefully not giving anyone any information to work with. You're intentionally playing your vote down as random, to not take responsibility for reasoning on it. I wouldn't be surprised if you voted for Seacore or ReaperCharlie soon.

---

In other news, Seacore is looking townier in his responses. I doubt scum would still continue to beat the Furc issue, when 99% of people agree that Furc is town. I also like his summary of the RC wagon. I'm going to ISO RC and then I may hitch a ride, but I want

some

content from El G at least before the day is over.

I'm trying to understand what you're talking about.
I asked you to consider what would happen if you successfully lead my lynch and then discovered, upon my death, that I was town.

What he's saying is that you framed the question like this...

what would happen if [...] I was town.

Furc is arguing that if you really were town, your question would have been "

when

you discover, upon my death, that I was town." You mean "if" as related to the "if you successfully lead my lynch" but Furc reads it as "if I was town" like I showed above.

---

And and by the way, MoI, if you missed it, I responded to your post but it got screwed by the timewarp, and is currently post #969/#970. You can either go back to page 39 to read it, or look at my ISO.

[AurorusVox]

I can see what you mean about ISO#38, but I disagree with your analysis of

why

ISO#46 is scummy. If his #46 has scummy motivations, I don't think it's what you're seeing, because he called Hito scummy for IMPLYING he wanted to volunteer rather than saying it explicitly himself, i.e. he's accusing Hito of trying to allow someone else to suggest it to avoid seeming suspicious. If it's scum motivated, then he's explicitly volunteering himself in order to not be accused of hypocrisy - he hasn't acted hypocritically.

I say "if it has" because I'm not sure how serious he was about putting himself forwards.

As for him being manipulative...now that you mention it, I'm worried that he got on board with my Baby Spice vote in order to manipulate me into thinking he was town. What I mean is, at the time, I was under a lot of pressure from SpyreX, and when RC said "this post is win" it made me pretty pleased that someone had seen something good that I had done and I hadn't considered that scum would do that (my thought being scum would fuel my mislynch). But if he's scum, then by that action alone, he definitely got me on his side until now.

[AurorusVox]

ReaperCharlie is town. "I AM MUCH TOO LAZY TO LOOK FOR THEM." Those are the words of a townie.

And the fact that he said that couldn't have had ANYTHING to do with this:

First off, meta wise: This guy is extremely Lazy as Town. Seriously.

[/sarcasm]

El G, are you only planning on commenting on/reading the posts that are made whilst you're online?

[AurorusVox]

Aha. So if you're capable of reading these posts made hours before you log on (HOURS!!!) , why aren't you capable of reading and commenting on the thread in its whole? Why do you need a summary written for you? There's four of you, I mean, you could even do like, 15 pages each.

[AurorusVox]

I can see what you mean about ISO#38, but I disagree with your analysis of why ISO#46 is scummy. If his #46 has scummy motivations, I don't think it's what you're seeing, because he called Hito scummy for IMPLYING he wanted to volunteer rather than saying it explicitly himself, i.e. he's accusing Hito of trying to allow someone else to suggest it to avoid seeming suspicious. If it's scum motivated, then he's explicitly volunteering himself in order to not be accused of hypocrisy - he hasn't acted hypocritically.

Really? I thought it had scum written all over it. The fact that he had a problem with Hito(mr. obvTown!) being the graverobber is really transparent. I mean, a Townie seeing mr.ObvTown Hito fish for a volunteer would gladly say 'Why, Hito! Why don't you do it~ *thumbs up*'. Reaper said 'No Hito. I'll do it. I am the shining beacon of Townieness, after all.'.

Why would any Townie dissuade a pretty obvious Townie from graverobbing? Answer: They won't.

Reaper is scum. Moar votes plx.

You've missed the emphasis of my post, I'm saying that I disagree as to

why

you think it's scummy (well, I don't disagree so much now you've expanded, but before, you were saying that he was scummy for being "hypocritical." But he was FoSing Hito for trying to manipulate people into saying "Oh Hito you do it", rather than explicitly saying "I want to do it" - and so by explicitly saying "I want to do it" himself, he

avoided

being accused of hypocrisy. Does that make sense?)

RC

- were you honestly suggesting that you should graverob?

ElG/LB scumteam could just retreat to scum-QT and get a recap. Bam, done.

But doesn't that line of thinking ultimately confirm El G as town then? If he's scum, he can get a recap from his buddies regardless. Are you willing to confirm El G as town?

And my point about the scumteam was also that El G directly contradicted his previous attitude of "I'll do whatever, just tell me what to do" when he

didn't

do what Fate told him to do. What do you make of that part of it?

[AurorusVox]

this is exactly how DGB played as town in SA2 fme

Have you played with him when he was scum?

[AurorusVox]

quit trying to make it null AV or ill change my read on you

I'm not trying to make it null, I just wanted to know if you had anything to compare it with. I think his play has been suspicious and so I didn't want to just roll over on it without at least trying to find out the details of your meta.

Do you really think there plan is to do blatant coaching in thread? Because that's what you're advancing if you buy that tell as you've described.

No, I do not think that is the plan, and I'm not saying him asking for LB's summary is a scumtell (he's asked plenty of people). I'm saying that El G's willingness to follow others

as expressed in his appeal to LB

in the post I quoted

contradicts

his unwillingness to follow Fate into

voting for LB

.

[AurorusVox]

Lemon aka AV's attempts to link us to El goosuki are actually really absurd. The summary one in particular seems to be stretching beyong all reason. And if you read post game of ACOK you'll actually see Drippereth (who are now el goosuki) don't actually consider it a town tell (well they do it all the time).

This is a terribly justified vote. If they were a scumteam, wouldn't they just post the summary in the thread? Unless you think CultGoosuki joking about being behind would only joke with a scumbuddy.

I've answered this already...if you're going to call my vote weak actually read

why

I'm voting for someone!

I'm not saying him asking for LB's summary is a scumtell (he's asked plenty of people). I'm saying that El G's willingness to follow others

as expressed in his appeal to LB

in the post I quoted

contradicts

his unwillingness to follow Fate into

voting for LB

.

Also 'you're a dead weight for town' is weird. Why say that to someone you think is scum?

Because if he's scum, we can't get anything out of him and when the time comes, we'll have to expend a lot of effort to get even the slightest inkling. And then if he's town, his "I don't want to read the thread" attitude is not helping.

Yo yo AV-sama did you address this:

"Except, of course, it was Hit who detailed the mod side of it before he did.
And, of course, my first post says Fur is town regardless of confirmation-gate."

in the madness times?

No I didn't see it. I'll respond now though --

I actually did not realise that Hito had explained it in practically the same way that I had - as far as I could recall, Hito was clearing Furc due to El G "hearing noise" (which he said in his post first suggesting Furc was clear) and what I assumed was him having a town read on him. Compounding this misunderstanding was the fact that MoI (and lots of others) still believed Furc was scum (and so I assumed no logical arguments had yet been made to the contrary); and even further, that MoI accepted that he was 99.999% town

after

I had made my argument. I don't know, but MoI should be able to explain why my argument convinced him and Hito's didn't - that's what threw me.

I addressed the second point multiple times though - saying and arguing are very different things.

[AurorusVox]

WHOEVER MADE "El Goosuki is scum" BECAUSE EL GOOSUKI WANTS TO SHEEP BUT THEN DOESN'T GETS +100 WIN POINTS

I am convinced by many of these RC cases, SeaCore (!!) in particular has been summarising it very well. I still want to do my own ISO of him, but I'm comfortable enough with those summaries to

Vote: ReaperCharlie

for now.

@MoI, OIC, so you tricked me into thinking I'd done good. I am hurt.

[AurorusVox]

Actually, paranoid could be used if we absolutely had to - we all vote/unvote Furc at the start of the day, one at a time (like in the same post, or one after another if need be) and then Furc can vote for whoever he wants. Anyone refusing to do it will be labelled as scum and promptly lynched. A lot of the insanities can be worked around when the guy that's taking them is the town insanity-holder.

In fact

, doing something like that would catch out people who had been forced into taken a different voting-insanity; sadism, and distraction to an extent.

[AurorusVox]

No, we want

his

grave to be

robbed

.

????

---

My initial reaction was "Why wouldn't he claim insanities?" but, thinking about it, what does the town get from knowing what insanities Furc took?

Feysal - so who would you suggest robbed graves instead of Furc? I know who I want to rob graves but I'll hear your idea first.

[AurorusVox]

Hmm. I was just going to suggest that we let Hito do it >_>"

Your plan could work, but contrary to you, I'm wondering if cult sharing targets is actually a viable strategy. It gives 2 players a claimable night action for the price of 1 player that they then can't kill.

---

Looking back at the noise/ward list, there's 5 players who claim to have made noise-making actions to four different players. There are 13 players who claim to have heard noise. 13 players, less 4 noise making targeted players, leaves

nine

unaccounted-for noises. I figure this could be explained by:
(a) some cult not fake-claiming ward on their craft fetish target
(b) some cult claiming to have heard noise when they didn't
(c) some wannabe murderers on the loose

What do people think the likeliest reasons are? I say reasons, because it has to be a combination of at least 2 of the above...and I think it could be a combination of all three =_="

[AurorusVox]

Didn't RC think BabySpice was scum earlier?

RC

- do you think xvart and BabySpice are scum together, sharing targets?

[AurorusVox]

Shut up and let me ask my questions. There's a method at work here.

[AurorusVox]

RC, I asked you a question. Let's not do this whole "not answering" thing again, eh?

[AurorusVox]

I want to know if you think they are scum

together.

I have follow up questions depending on your answer to that specific question, regardless of what your point is. I'm going to sleep now though so I won't be able to post them til the morning.

[AurorusVox]

@ AV: I don't know if they're scum together. I think Baby Spice is scummy, but I'm onto something with this xvart thing. I can tell I've hit a nerve. What do YOU think?

Hello Mr. Fence sitter.

I see that you don't want to take a stance, thus nullifying my follow up questions for you. I will treat that as being evasive (especially considering you didn't answer me before that), because a central point of your suspicion of xvart is that he and BabySpice warded the same target. You

must

have considered if you think they'd be on the same team. Thus I think you either haven't really given your case much thought, and are just trying to lay down the seeds for an alternative wagon on xvart -- or you have thought about it and don't know how best to answer. If you're town, you'd think about it and give me an answer.

BUT, you seem very quick to try to point it out, trying to perform quick damage control on something that could derail my wagon, and trying to immediately nullify anything anybody says about me being town. Which I am.

BUT, El Goosuki seemed very quick to try to point it out, trying to perform quick derailing with something that might actually have been put there intentionally for him to pick up on, trying to salvage your sinking ship of shining hope.

Can you PLEASE explain to the class, exactly when your read on Seacore switched [...] Apparently now you think that Seacore is town?

In other news, Seacore is looking townier in his responses. I doubt scum would still continue to beat the Furc issue, when 99% of people agree that Furc is town. I also like his summary of the RC wagon.

It happened around the time I posted that my read on Seacore switched.

And not just marginally town, but now a shining townie with a good case on somebody else? Someone you trust so thoroughly that you will now commence sheepage on his case without even doing your own ISO?

His case was the best of everyones, but MoI and VV have also also built a case on you that I read with interest. Seacore's was the one I felt was the strongest; and so his was the one I explicitly mentioned. I've done a very very quick ISO of you actually, and it didn't push me off the wagon, soo...

And just because I agree with his summary of your play doesn't mean he's a shining townie - he's a townish player with a good case on you and your responses to his points (essentially "meh" until you suddenly started defending yourself - a prompt in the QT perhaps?) didn't really stack up.

And even if you DID decide that your COMPLETE 180 on Seacore was warranted, it still doesn't explain your next post.

So can you please,

please

explain to me, what POSSIBLE sense I could then make of this post?

Why are you putting me and Seacore in the same category?

Are you saying that we're both TOWN?? If so, when did THAT change?

I'm putting you in the same category because I suspected El G was just voting for the biggest wagons, which at the time were you and Seacore. Interesting that he's stayed off yours but hopped on xvart's. And defended you. And called you 100% town.

It automatically explains their high insanity count and it gives him/her information about who the other Murderers are.

Doesn't it stop them stalking/murdering?

[AurorusVox]

I suspected El G was just voting for the biggest wagons, which at the time were you and Seacore. Interesting that he's stayed off yours but hopped on xvart's. And defended you. And called you 100% town.

WOW. SOUNDS F#$^ING FAMILIAR. I.E. ME/FURC.

APPARENTLY YOU CAN'T PUT 2+2 TOGETHER.

I don't get what you mean by you/furc - unless you mean that El G defended you like you defended Furc? In which case, are you seriously suggesting that you're as likely-town as Furc?

...

Point taken.

But that's what it looks like. Do you disagree?

The point was made multiple times earlier in the game, are you actually saying you didn't think of the existence of daytalk QT? Despite the *whisper whisper* in all the vote counts? And even if that

is

what it looks like, why does that make any difference at all, when the daytalk QT completely nullifies the accusation?

[AurorusVox]

No; robbing graves is a free action.

Not if they rob two graves ~

Mod: I'm (slightly) V/LA tomorrow through til Tuesday

[AurorusVox]

My suspicion is that there are a bunch of people who want to distance themselves from what they perceive as an almost inevitable RC lynch.

Why would people want to distance themselves from it, unless it was a mislynch? Town should be vocal if they think it's a mislynch; scum would be quiet so as to not derail it. But RC can't be a mislynch AND still be worthy of your vote at the same time. It has to be one or the other. You can't lynch him as scum and then cast suspicion on the people who don't want to, unless you're suggesting that they're trying to not bus? But why would they try to not bus, if they think that it's "almost inevitable"? It makes no sense. There's something not quite right about this post.

---

Wraith, I think that the idea of rezzing Fate is no longer viable, since he we only get the flavour of his kill if he actually dies (this was a mistake that I made when reading the rules in SAII). So either we sanction the murder of Fate to clear BenMage and DO NOT res Fate -- or we drop the plan entirely. I think we're going with the latter now.

[AurorusVox]

I don't have much time but I wanted to say this now in case I don't get on to post til Tuesday ><

Ben, you won't be confirmed tomorrow. The plan lies in tatters. Baby Spice of all people has voiced the major flaw;

I see a problem with Bencult having the cult killing you by ritual and having a different cultist claim the res kit, or Bentown tries to kill you, someone uses a res kit, and the cult decides to ritual as well. I cannot see an easy way to differentiate the two to deal with Ben on D2.

Maybe I can put this across clearer:

TownBen murders Fate - Cult rezzes Fate - Cult rituals Fate - Fate shows up as killed by an unspeakable being - Not confirmed
CultBen greater rituals Fate - Fate shows up as killed by an unspeakable being - Not confirmed

RE: Voting BenMage - I would advocate his lynch only if he insists on going through with the kill.

~Be back in a day or so.

[AurorusVox]

Noise, no ward

---

I see nothing to indicate that we can't dispatch more than one person]

Dispatch: Fate

Dispatch: ReaperCharlie

---

No cult kill last night? So it's likely that someone res'd successfully? Or cult wifom with aspirations of collecting successful res town points?

Thoughts on LB: potential murderer, or cultist?

---

I'm busy busy busy til the weekend (and maybe after that too), so I'll be short in all my posts. Like that.

[AurorusVox]

CD2

Username:

AurorusVox

Did you Hear Noise?

Yes

Did you Ward? If so, who?

No

Did you gain Insanities, and if so, which ones and from what actions?

No

List all of the insanities you currently have:

None

Did you

successfully

resuscitate? If so, who?

No

Were you murdered?

No

Did you Commune or Investigate? If so, who, and what result? (Note that these are both poor N1 choices.)

No

Twitch?

No

Hmm. I didn't consider the multiple grave rob scenario since I was in a rush.

Undispatch: Fate

Undispatch: ReaperCharlie

I guess the modkill points to them both being town, but it would help a lot if we knew for sure. I'm leaning on wanting to graverob RC more than Fate but then I can't really justify that there's much difference between 6 robbers and 8 robbers...Fudge

---

Ninja: Wicked, the anti-dispatch argument is that we'd have to commit more people to grave-robbing than otherwise necessary. Also, there is the chance of cult-wifom which means that even in the event of no one else claiming to have been murderfied, you're not fully cleared of not-cult and definitely not cleared of not-potential-murderer.

[AurorusVox]

Didn't a few people explicitly tell BenMage to stalk tonight and not reveal his target?

[AurorusVox]

Wicked: if WE don't rob their graves, cult will (=cult dust)

El G: did you honestly use Forensic Tools on someone --- despite it being made EXPLICITLY clear that this was a terrible N1 action since no one would be bloody at all?

---

1) I think we need to decide whether or not to dispatch after deciding if we want to spend eight people robbing graves

3) I do think we'll need to dispatch them at some point. If we don't, when the game gets down to the nitty gritty lower numbers, we won't know if we're up against remnants of the cult or townies-gone-murderer. If it wasn't for that fact, we could get away with not dispatching them (play assuming they're town). However, based on the singular murder tonight, we might still be able to go on without dispatching them.

---

Benmage, why MoI? As far as I can tell, his question is extremely valid - Fate hadn't been declared dead yet, and it

explicitly

states in the soul rip section that night actions can still take place on him. Killing him in that situation was the perfect solution to all the problems that we had.

Vote: Benmage

[AurorusVox]

SpyreX:

The

Rob Grave

,

Stalk

,

Murder

and

Commune

actions all cause Insanity, as will being saved from death by a successful

Resuscitate

and participating in

The Ritual

.

Launder

,

Craft Fetish

and

Ward

can also cause insanity, as will receiving a

Fetish

of yourself from a

Cultist

.

- Rob Grave/Ward: there were no dead bodies for Rob or Ward to give insanities from
- Stalk/Murder = murderer
- Commune/Launder: little to no reason to commune (we established the failings of using it N1) or launder
- Resuscitate: he was clearly not resuscitated
- Craft Fetish/The Ritual = cult
- Given a Fetish = town

The only reasonable "town" explanation for this is if he was given a fetish of himself. That's one out of all those possible/impossible actions. Explain to me how that one action constitutes a "whole mess of things"?

---

Ben: I'd expect you, as the person with the stalking/killing potential, to be the one who understands how it works the best. Just because VP said it was a bad question doesn't get you off the hook when YOU didn't do it. And now where's this "we can kill fate anytime" come from? That's going to give extra insanities -- which I thought you didn't want? Hmm?

[AurorusVox]

EBWOP: Hey, it's not VP who said it was a bad question naughty Ben. It was Trilobite. But my reason still stands.

[AurorusVox]

If you killed him last night, he would have been "murdered" today and you would have had your precious confirmation. Although I guess a res kit would have still prevented it from happening, I think cult were far less likely to res someone who was for all intents and purposes already dead. And town was not going to waste their kits on Fate. What don't you get?

[AurorusVox]

Oh my God.....I wish I could quote my own words just spoken but that'd be much effort on a phone.

My primary incentive to stalk and kill is to kill a cult. The second added beneficial aspect is that it confirms me town. Understand AV? I want to kill c.u.l.t. with my k.i.l.l.

That sounds mighty different from what you were saying yesterday.

---

Feysal:
Didn't we say Occulting N1 was no good yesterday? IMO, Occulting N1 is a risky move that is probably not going to yield results (as it doesn't catch cult til N2). The best town explanation for that insanity is if he was given a fetish. But of course there's also the chance LB was a murderer.

[AurorusVox]

NOW, that doesn't change the new song and dance you're pulling about insanity = stalk = murderer versus yesterday which is tech.

Explain to me what tech is?

If he got an insanity, it is likelier that he was either cult or that he was planning on going the murder route (I think this for reasons that I have explained above). In that case the insanity was from stalking (=planning on going murderer) or it was from performing the ritual (=cult). So what song and dance am I doing?

OR the fact you didn't even poke at me at calling out the ohh nokill or wifom in said post.

I thought F--- signalled your frustration at there being a difficult situation to contend with, I didn't realise it was aimed at me. Since there was no cult kill, there COULD be a res save like I said, or the cult may have not killed as a ploy, like I said. WIFOM exists when there is no kill. So what's your point?

---

AurorusVox, if scum really wanted to rob graves, couldn't they just do that to the other players that are dead? I don't get it.

Only LB is "dead" atm. Fate and RC aren't "dead" yet, they're soulless. Dispatching them makes them dead, i.e. they can have their graves robbed, i.e. if we dispatch them we have to commit extra people to robbing graves.

---

NinjaVP: you were not okay with 8 people robbing graves, but you're okay with 7? Is it that big a difference? Why not do one tonight (=3 graverobs/5 people) and save the other for the next night?

---

NinjaFeysal: Or unless their target was warded N0 and so they gave up on it.

Actually,

Mod: do dead people still gain insanities from their own insanity-causing night actions if they were killed before/simultaneous to said action?

[AurorusVox]

Mod: do dead people still gain insanities from their own insanity-causing night actions if they were killed before/simultaneous to said action?

Dead people can pick up Insanities right up to when they die.

So essentially this means LB's insanity was probably not from being a member of the cult (since the ritual resolves after murder he wouldn't have gotten the insanity from it), unless he triple-fetished N0 (very unlikely).

Based on how the Commune skill works (insanity coming after Commune) and what Vi said above, I believe that the side-effects of a night action resolve after the effect has resolved; which means that he could have stalked/murdered on consecutive nights but not gotten the insanity from the murder action. So don't write off a foiled murder attempt just yet.

With the above rule clarification, and since some people have received Fetishes, I'm now more open to the possibility of LB being given a fetish of himself. Arguing the difference is almost moot, since he'll show up as investigator either way when his grave is robbed, and we'll have no way of knowing, unless he searched for equipment last night, which would indicate town > murderer. Actually, I think Furc should rob LB's grave tonight, since if he *does* happen to have equipment, we can fully write off a foiled murder attempt. Thoughts?

[AurorusVox]

VP: We'll know whether they're investigator or cult. We won't know if they were planning on going murderer. I know it seems like a pointless distinction at this moment, but IF there's been a foiled murder attempt, I think it would be worth knowing. They claimed to not have warded N0. So it's likely that if they're town, they searched for equipment. I don't see much point in using that equipment last night, and so IMO it's probable that the equipment is still in their possession. If Furc gets it, we know LB was passed a Fetish - if he gets nothing, it's likely that LB hoped to murder someone last night, but that their attempts were foiled. This information could prove invaluable.

Of course, they could have taken Occult Books and gone gun-ho looking for a stalker, which would townily explain the insanity and the lack of equipment...but that's really sub-optimal play considering its a huge risk and results in an insanity regardless of whether the Commune is successful or not. I'd expect a hydra account to

not

do that, since it has two heads considering the pros and cons of the action...

[AurorusVox]

Furc: okay with a Benmage lynch or a LB graverob?

[AurorusVox]

I believe you can have as many items as you want.

If LB is cult, how do you explain his insanity? Vi-mod said insanities can be picked up right until they die, so LB would have been murdered before he gained insanities from the ritual. Do you think LB crafted three fetishes N0?

[AurorusVox]

No cult kill last night? So it's likely that someone res'd successfully? Or cult wifom with aspirations of collecting successful res town points?

Last isn't applicable; people who get Murdered and Rezzed get flavor; if they wanted to waste a Rez kit and a kill on a Townie for cred not guaranteed (if someone else claims a Rez on the fellow it's down the drain, and there's no control over that).

No, I mean, cult may have NK'd (since people were mod-killed, it's not like they'd be losing out on skipping tonight's kill) - and then one claims to have been murdered, and the other claims to have res'd them. If there are no other murdered-claims to the contrary, it could even go as far as to clear two players at once.

---

ITT, SpyreX still has a hard-on of hate for me. I'll do this in a way you might understand:

POTENTIAL FOR WIFOM EXISTS. TO OUTRIGHT IGNORE THAT IS STUPID. I AM CAPABLE OF CONSIDERING MULTIPLE IDEAS AT ONCE. IT IS NOT HARD.

Better?

So, SpyreX, how comes when El G was doing nothing yesterday it wasn't worth a vote, but because Seacore says something, it suddenly is? If that's the only difference, why did you make the comment about 0%? Oh...and didn't multiple people tell me the 0% contribution argument was no good when I voted El G yesterday? So...are you trying to NOT look like you're bandwaggoning the vote? Trying to make it look like you have more than a baa to go on? Since, y'know, Plum called you out on that yesterday?

---

Dispatch: RC

[AurorusVox]

Regarding Benmage

I don't think he's a threat as being a murderer. I think he's a threat because he's cult.

- He did NOT follow through his kill, despite it being the perfect opportunity to do so (the fact that Fate was soulless negates almost all of the drawbacks to vigging him)
- He has since said that he only wanted to catch scum with his kill - but that wasn't his plan yesterday. His plan yesterday was to vig Fate to prove his town-cred. When he thought Fate was scum, he wanted to LYNCH him, not vig him.
- He now won't claim his stalked target, which could mean he's planning on claiming a N2 murdered body as his

own

kill (a devious plan since the actual killer won't out themselves, as they're doing it secretly).
- ALL of this screams that he never stalked Fate, and that he didn't stalk last night.

Why would he do this, you ask?

- Well, as I said D1, he only claimed stalk AFTER it was made clear that doing so would clear him as a townie.
- He probably did not realise that he'd be forced to follow it through. In fact he even tried to prevent it being followed through with his desire to lynch Fate.
- And then he started accepting the idea as we were discussing how it wasn't a reliable plan anyway, how cult could frame him (read: he realised he could rely on those excuses to escape any backlash from not killing Fate)


Now I ask those on his wagon with me: what do you think? Are you voting for him because you think he is planning on becoming a murderer, or because you think he's a cultist?

[AurorusVox]

He did NOT follow through his kill, despite it being the perfect opportunity to do so (the fact that Fate was soulless negates almost all of the drawbacks to vigging him)

I think that would have been a terribly stupid use of night action considering it wouldn't have made Fate dead from my interpretation of the rules.

Where has this interpretation come from? It clearly states that night actions can still be used on Fate, i.e. he could have been killed/murdered.

He now won't claim his stalked target, which could mean he's planning on claiming a N2 murdered body as his own kill (a devious plan since the actual killer won't out themselves, as they're doing it secretly).

This is patently ridiculous and relies on Benmage having outside knowledge that there is in fact going to be a N2 murder. How would Ben be sure enough of this to claim it? Seems like a stupidly risky plan for a cult. Way too much of a gamble.

There was a murder N1. No one claimed that they would be stalking/murdering. Thus that person is hoping to achieve the murder wincon. Thus there is someone who is going to stalk and murder again --- ooooh. I see. I'm getting the fucking numbers mixed up again. Fucksticks.

Regardless, he could have Cult Buddy A claim to be the target of a kill; Cult Buddy B claims to have resurrected "A," and finally Ben claim that "A" was the stalked target. Not to mention that this would account for bloody states and insanities on the part of those involved. I understand the attraction of Occam's Razor, but I think this setup lends itself to outrageous plans and gambits.

He probably did not realise that he'd be forced to follow it through. In fact he even tried to prevent it being followed through with his desire to lynch Fate.

So you are suggesting that cultBen and all of his buddies did not realize that if you claim stalk, you're going to be expected to murder that person?

I'm suggesting that he claimed stalk in the immediate vicinity of Furc saying that stalkers were clear townies. There wasn't much time for debate. Ben could easily have seized the moment without thinking or talking it through.

---

Scums in need of the rope post haste

:
El Goos

For future reference, I can get on board with an El G lynch, but I'd prefer a Ben lynch.

[AurorusVox]

Trilo:

Ward must be used on the dead body in order to prevent graverob - not the graverobber. So if cult ward a dead body, they too can't rob the grave.

[AurorusVox]

@Furc: Warding graves also causes insanities though...so it's not completely wiping insanities off the list.

ANDY

, since you random-voted VV all day yesterday, what do you make of his case on MoI?

[AurorusVox]

how else would he have 1 insanity

A little late, but the only way CultLB gets 1 insanity is by crafting three fetishes N0. Otherwise, he could have gained it from the other (non-cult) actions Seacore listed. I think it's essential to know whether or not he stalked N0 since that might indicate whether or not there was a cult kill last night or not (i.e. LB's may have been the kill attempt on Wicked)

That said, it is more of an outlandish theory now that no one else has claimed to have been an attempted-kill. At this point, the best way to ascertain whether LB stalked+murdered, or was really working for town, is if he has any equipment. Possession of equipment guarantees town, but lack of it does not guarantee murderer, so the best outcome is that someone robs his grave and gets equipment to prove the former.

Of course, he could still have stalked a warded target and thus given up on the murderer win-con. But if he has equipment it is probably more likely that he received the insanity from being passed a Fetish of himself - which would make those people who had received Fetishes of themselves sound more legitimate.

I get that people don't like mechanics-plans, but in this case it will really help out in determining how truthful some of what has been said actually is. And I'm well aware how unnecessarily complicated these theories sound, but I truly do believe that this setup is designed to suit complicated plans and gambits.

---

I feel like if most people are only willing to policy-lynch Benmage to stop him killing as an investigator tonight, that this will be a wasted lynch (not to mention if he flips town those people are absolved of their mistake). I know Wraith and Furpants clearly think he's investigator.

MoI

- do you think Benmage is more likely cult or investigator?

---

And the fact you think I voted because of doing 0% in a game where manho is still around that batting average is getting lower and lower.

Oh poor SpyreX, I stated that you were falsely claiming to use that as an excuse to mask your baaaaaaa after Seacore's vote. I don't really think you're voting him for that reason. I even go on to say that if Seacore's reason is the only thing that's making you want to vote El G, why didn't you just say that in the first place? Why mention 0% contribution at all? Baaa.

Tech points for throwing Plum's name in there.

Tech? She called you out on it. I'm seeing an attempt to evade that accusation. Does tech mean superawesomecool?

Super tech points for not even pretending to comment on the switch from Benmage wants to kill fate? TOWN GUYS YO PROMISE to LOOK AT THESE FILTHY MURDERERS.

Oh poor SpyreX once again, I believe you'll find that I've always stated that I felt Benmage was cult. I argued to make Benmage follow through on his kill of Fate to PROVE that he couldn't do it. I.e. to prove that he wasn't in fact town. If he had managed to kill Fate, I'd have had egg all over my face but it would have been the egg of a confirmed townie at least. But, I realised as the day drew on that such plans were futile due to a few reasons that we discussed, and swiftly dispatched of the plan.

I'm assuming "tech" is a negative term, so "Super tech points for you, for being completely wrong" - am I doing it right?

[AurorusVox]

Crackpot theory: Benmage kills LB and then hopes for another murder to take place tonight to claim as his own OR claims he tried to kill someone who the cult "must" have rez'd. It's out there, sure, but it's not impossible.

[AurorusVox]

Personally I don't think that's exactly what happened, but I mention it because the second half ("Cult rez'd my stalk target, duh") forms part of my argument for how he could be cult and hope to get away with the unclaimed stalk target; and it's no good to have people operating under the assumption that it CAN'T have happened. Improbable =/= impossible.

[AurorusVox]

It's not a waste of time if people are willing to clear Benmage of killing last night, when in reality he could have. I mean, I agree that anybody could have killed LB, but manho and Benmage are saying that anybody-but-Benmage could have, which is untrue. Unless you want the rest of town to operate under this false pretence, I don't see what the problem with me raising this issue is.

[AurorusVox]

WHY do you not think he's cult? What has he done to make you think that? I'm sick of people using "stop with the mechanics" as an argument to NOT THINK THROUGH OR EXPLAIN what they're saying.

-You voted Benmage yesterday without explaining why. What's changed since then? You said today that he would eventually be murdered anyway - why didn't you think that yesterday?
-What alignment do you think LB was and why? Please back this up with speculation as to where you think his insanity came from. This is an important question because it relates to your "scum hunting" today. I will go into more detail once you've answered.
-The majority of your D2 posts have been plan-speculation about Benmage murdering/revealing his target; robbing graves; and dispatching people. Where do you get off telling me to stop with mechanics arguments when that's most of what you've done today?

[AurorusVox]

Three more things...

1. If we go with my grave rob plan, Benmage should rob graves too so that he doesn't murder somebody.

I like your graverob plan up to this point

2. Nopoint being the first person to claim the rez before I even claimed that I had been rezzed means he is probably another confirmed town

Alternatively if you were targeted by cult, they would have seen that you were still alive and KNOWN that you were res'd. In which case who claimed res first is moot and null.

3. Regarding Lost Butterfly, what we do know is that either they are cult or cult passed a fetish of them.

Alas, no. According to the rules that Vi posted, he can ONLY be cult if he crafted three fetishes N0, since the insanity from the Ritual would have come AFTER he was murdered, and Vi said you don't gain insanities after you're dead. It's also possible that he stalked N0 on a warded target and gave up on Murder wincon, or that the mods are very strict with resolutions and since the "effect" of his death resolved before the "side-effect" of the insanity, that the insanity from attempted-murder did not count (the language of the mod response was unclear about that - I figured it was intentionally so)...

---

Remember yesterday when I was leading to something and you came in and went LOOK I CAN HAS QUEsTIONS and it was nothing and screwed up where i was going because Gooski is doing nothing?

Remember that?

Yea.

Remember yesterday when you claimed all right to ask El G questions and made it really explicit that you were working on something with regards to El G and/or I read your mind to figure as much?

Remember that?

No?

Neither do I.

Yea, you sure said you thought he was cult but hey why not kill because then you're awesome town.

NOW, however, its "THE MURDERERS IN THE NIGHT" not "Ohh scumbag claims he can kill Fate? Go for it"

(Hint: this is because you know Ben is not cult and him killing Fate who is also not cult is win-win like I said before)

No, I said "hey why not kill because OH WAIT YOU CAN'T CULTBAG"

I had resurrecting Fate as part of the plan until the mod said you didn't receive attempted-kill flavour before being resurrected. Once that was made clear, I dropped the plan.

AND LOOK AT ME AVOIDING OMG PLUM SAID SHEEP SO I SAY SHEEP THAT MAKES ME COOL AGAIN BECAUSE FFFFF

MAYBE THATS SOME KINDA NEW WIFOM

...you are sheeping as far as I can see. I'm not just copying Plum here, because the point I'm making is that SOMEONE CALLED YOU OUT ON IT. It's pretty important to mention that you'd been called out on it once already if you're blatantly just trying to get away with doing it again. It's kind of the whole point.

[AurorusVox]

Manho, the way I see it, if there's only one murderer on the loose (LB's killer), that person can't kill tonight (they need to stalk first) so we'll only have one kill "tonight" if cult get around to successfully murdering. So that leaves 3 graves tonight (RC, LB, today's lynch); and then 3 tomorrow night if we leave Fate (Fate, tonight's cult kill, tomorrow's lynch).

Where did you get "4 or 5" from?

[AurorusVox]

No, not all right. But, when I'm trying to get a response ESPECIALLY about the whole "Ohh yea I totally dig RC" but not mentioning his jumping suspicions and you go "OHH WAIT BABYSPICE IM ASKING THE QUESTIONS NOW MR" (and then ask no questions) its awesome.

I remember that.

How was I supposed to know that you were planning it when you kept quiet about it?

Yea, Ben was your CULT NUMBER ONE NO VOTE GETTING WINNER.

The fact you're able to straight face go "OHh yea I totally KNEW he was cult and thats why I did everything in my power to never, ever vote him D1" is awesome. Its doubly awesome when he's shouting from the rafters murderer-in-training and sure as hell not cult.

Of course, again, I'm not surprised there wasn't a vote on the claimed stalk for being pro town awesome hats because that kinda fits with the motif.

You know what, I've already explained my stance with regards to voting for Ben yesterday. Please refer all future arguments about voting Benmage or otherwise to those responses.

I'm NOT sheeping. GOD.

If I was I wouldn't have asked OVER AND OVER for one of you reallly tech wagoneers D1 to explain Seacore who is oozing town.

In fact between said lines Plum said the issue is that I wasn't leading sheep. Not that AGREEING IS A BAD THING BECAUSE JESUS MY HEAD.

Of course, if you're gonna sit on a Ben wagon and ignore WHY I'm 'sheeping' this well kudos.

Because, this is the extent of what you've said about gooski today:

For future reference, I can get on board with an El G lynch, but I'd prefer a Ben lynch.

Your post when you voted was essentially:
"He hasn't done anything. Seacore has a case."

And you've admitted that you weren't voting him for not doing anything. So all you're left with is:
"

He hasn't done anything.

Seacore has a case."

How is that not sheeping? You didn't even follow up with your epic plan to entrap El G, you just started shouting that you had one. What was it? Why can't you do it now?

Also, I voted for El G yesterday and explained why then. Since he's playing in the same way (and has gone even further with his wasted night action) then my reasons for voting him have carried over since then.

And its time to lay that down after all your indignant well I never garbage:

Am I scum? Am I a murderer? Am I just a tunneling sheep robot town?

What is it? Because, its time to lay it out.

You've gone from town to null, where I could go either way depending on my mood. I'm not going to make up an excuse just to pick one over the others.

Spoiler: What you'll consider garbage (a.k.a. explanation)

I initially took the fact that you only seem concerned with scumhunting me to be a townish manoeuvre because I figured scum would mix their energies between lots of different people. I know that some people believe that you should intensely scumhunt one person at a time, and it seems that people are saying that it's what you do as town anyway. But the longer you've kept going, ignoring much of what I've said, what I took as your conviction has started to look like blinkers. And it's hard for me to read you because (a) I know your case is wrong, and (b) I think most of what I take from interactions with you is playstyle. If I'm feeling particularly paranoid, I could go scum based on your setting-up of subsequent lynches (the argument being that if El G is going to be lynched, you may as well attach me to it); or if I'm feeling generous I could say you're just a townie who's got an aggressive tunnel-like playstyle and is making a mistake in his read.

You said if El G is scum, then I definitely am. What makes you think this?

[AurorusVox]

You are going "ALL YOU DID IS SHEEP" but I most certainly didn't baa on that retarded Seacore wagon.

Maybe you and Seacore are scum together ^^
Or maybe you only sheep scum for bussing.
Or maybe you sheep erratically to defend against the accusations of sheeping.

---

Or maybe you're selective in it because you're town and you only like sheeping when you see a good case.

I don't think I've ever said sheeping was a scumtell...I said that you seemed to try to hide the fact that you were voting without adding anything. Oh - kind of like what you did with RC! Which was pointed out! Which --- you've tried to avoid being accused of!! Dun dun dunn.

---

I also asked you a couple of direct questions. Answers plox.

[AurorusVox]

I am trying to follow up on other things. I asked MoI a question earlier that I'm still waiting for a reply on, I don't really want to comment on the case against him until that's been answered. I'm also still waiting on Andy to respond to my question regarding Vas/Moi :\

Has anyone actually asked El G directly for clarification as to why he investigated last night?

EL G

: what excuse do you have for taking an action that was described as useless in a post that you yourself acknowledged that you had read?

[AurorusVox]

Hmm. The way it could work is if, for example, Wickedestjr secretly decided to launder or not-launder tonight. Then El G forensic tools him and has a 50:50 chance of guessing correctly. It's not very reliable, though it could catch El G out.

If he's cult and he picks an investigator, he'll just say they're not bloody. The only investigators who are bloody will be those hoping to go the murderer route. I can't see them outing themselves just to get El G lynched.

[AurorusVox]

Manho

I believe this post was directed at you:

WHY do you not think [Benmage]'s cult? What has he done to make you think that?
[...]
-You voted Benmage yesterday without explaining why. What's changed since then? You said today that he would eventually be murdered anyway - why didn't you think that yesterday?
-What alignment do you think LB was and why? Please back this up with speculation as to where you think his insanity came from. This is an important question because it relates to your "scum hunting" today. I will go into more detail once you've answered.
-The majority of your D2 posts have been plan-speculation about Benmage murdering/revealing his target; robbing graves; and dispatching people. Where do you get off telling me to stop with mechanics arguments when that's most of what you've done today?

Plz respond, kthx.

[AurorusVox]

Hmph.

-Benmage had already claimed that he had stalked within the first ~15 pages yesterday. So did you think he was cult yesterday? Because how is that any different from thinking he is cult today?
-So you think that the cult will pass people fetishes to get them mislynched? But didn't you earlier say that you suspect the people who had been given fetishes as actually being the cult? What is it - a mislynch tactic or a fake-claimed insanity?

[AurorusVox]

Oh, now I remember why I never got far asking El G questions before...

EL G

: what excuse do you have for taking an action that was described as useless in a post that you yourself acknowledged that you had read?

[AurorusVox]

@Triglav - I think I'm the only person in the whole game who still thinks Benmage is cult, so "OMG HE MIGHT GO MURDERER" being bullshit isn't really something to ask me to respond to. If he is an investigator, I don't think he'll get very far as murderer if we can shut him down effectively, and I'd recommend lynching him on D5 if he makes it that far just in case. I've said multiple times why I think he's cult but I must just be crazy since I'm 1/25 that think so.

Vote: El G

for reasons I've stated yesterday + the silly night action fiasco. I'll look at MoI more once he's answered my question.

---

@SpyreX - Agreeing with people is not suspicious. What is suspicious is that you were actively trying to avoid accusations of sheeping by putting that 0% comment which had no bearing on your vote. You were padding out the sheeping because you'd been called out on it. You can continue to misinterpret me if you want.

I went back to look at this trap you'd laid for El G. I didn't realise "Et Tu, Gooski?" (which is ALL you'd said to El G prior to me asking my question) was a signed affidavit for you to pursue him on your own, all by yourself. Not to mention, the context of your question was "why is xvart scummy?" which he'd already answered (albeit badly). OTOH, my question was aimed at RC because he (a) Said BabySpice was scum, (b) Said xvart was scum, and (c) did not seem to support the fact that they scum-shared claimed partners. I wanted him to say "YES" or "NO" because he would expose his inconsistency. I don't see what the hell that had to do with your "case" against El G.

[AurorusVox]

El G: what is the scummiest thing that MoI has done and why?
MoI: what's your position on letting Benmage kill tonight and why?

[AurorusVox]

VV, I debated the cause of LB's insanity a while back. Since mod-VI told me that you can only get insanities up to the point of your death, the only insanity causing actions had to occur N0 (stalk, crafting three fetishes) or resolve before the murder effect N1 (stalk, laundering whilst not bloody, crafting three fetishes, being given a fetish of himself).

(Also worth baring in mind is the possibility that if the rules are strict in terms of resolution, a murder side-effect (insanity) may be cancelled out due to someone else's murder effect (death) resolving first, despite the murder attempt still going through.)

[AurorusVox]

AV why are you sucking up to MoI here?

How is it sucking up?

[AurorusVox]

im not certain im going to be robbing
i dont feel like i need confirmation at all

Furc, it's not to confirm you but to assist town =_="

Didn't mean to double post, I didn't realise I had also tabbed this quote to respond to.

[AurorusVox]

attacking his attacker/the other wagon
staging a question to MoI to help him appear pro-town

how is that not kissing his ass? you are being his yes man essentially.

You mean Ben is his other attacker? I'm not attacking Ben in this question. Unless you mean attacking El G? Because hello, El G needs to get lynched.
My question is not staged, nor is it intended to make him pro-town; it's to scumhunt him with my special brand of innocent-looking-questions. I'm like a trap-door spider.

[AurorusVox]

I'm attacking El G because I think he's scum. I said that already. Why can't I pursue my scumreads?
I'm not sucking up to MoI. If you push me to explain my question, then it renders the question pointless. Ask me to explain again after MoI has responded.

[AurorusVox]

MoI: what's your position on letting Benmage kill tonight and why?

I’m not willing to lynch him at this stage because the chance he is Cult goes to zero with a successful kill tonight. And lynching him is the only thing Town can do to ‘not let’ Benmage kill. He will not respond to any other stimulus. So any discussion outside of whether to lynch him is pointless.

Nice way to not answer the question. It sounds like you're saying you don't want to stop him from killing, but do you think Benmage SHOULD kill tonight, and why?

[AurorusVox]

Actually, NPAU mentioning that he hasn't heard noise either night is interesting...

I think that it's very odd that there are people who did not hear noises at all (these people are: Nicodemus, NPAU, VV, and manho). Since cult can visit every investigator over the course of N0 and N1, I wonder what reason cult would have for choosing to NOT visit these people? I'm debating whether this could be cult not wanting to fake-claim hearing a noise; or whether these are people low on the cult's kill list. Certainly players like Nico (who replaced Bowser) and manho (who replaced wingless) haven't really contributed a great deal to the game so far and therefore might not seem to pose a great threat to the cult - and indeed could provide handy mislynch targets - but I'm more concerned as to why VV wasn't targeted by the cult on either night. The fact NPAU hasn't heard noise either night also tips me more in the favour of Feysal as the legitimate resuscitator, should there be only one.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[AurorusVox]

VV: according to Wicked's chart you didn't, I was using that as a reference.

NPAU: I understand that they might not want to visit everyone (that's why I said I'm less suspect of Manho/Nico for not hearing noise) but the fact that 24/28 (or with VV, now 25/28 people) claim to have heard noise makes it look like they're trying to get something on everyone, and my feeling is compounded by the fact that a number of people who didn't hear N0 noise heard noise on N1 (I get that some of this can be explained by investigator's warding/res'ing/etc, but still it looks odd)

Last night they couldn't launder as they would have received an insanity from it, since they wouldn't be bloody til the end of the night, i.e. AFTER launder had taken place. I'll accept that getting res. kits is an alternative path to fetishing in general, but if no cult heard noise N0, none would have had to go after res kits last night since none would have been in danger of dying. But you're also ignoring the insanity-spreading from giving people their own fetishes - which people claim to have suffered. And, if cult DO have fetishes of most people, they'll be able to pick their kills freely; otherwise there's a delay when it comes to ritualising people. I'm pretty sure it's in the cult's interest to have as many fetishes of as many people as possible.

[AurorusVox]

Hey guys, I'm gonna use ward on someone tonight. Can someone use their rez kit on me tonight?

Gonna look at the ISOs of El G and kunkstar, see whose lynch I like better.

^I don't like this at all. Why are you trying to direct res. kittage? Surely its up to people to decide who to res themselves? I assume you're still thinking Ben is targetting you, but even so, res-kit townies ought to decide themselves who is worthy of a kit.

And you do also realise that cult can Ward you to prevent your ward from working, and you don't get told if your ward failed, right? And if someone res's you, you won't know if the noise you heard came from cult warding you. Essentially we've lost all faith in the success of your ward, making it a pointless night action for you to now take. You'll have to come up with something else.

Anyway, the above piqued my interest, and so I looked at you in ISO...I noticed that you:
(a) tried to set-up subsequent lynch targets in the event of an RC-town flip (in the same post that you voted for him)
(b) voted for what you claimed was dead-stone murderer-Benmage over your cult-suspect(s)
(c) said you'd advocate the Ben-murder-Fate plan if you had a res kit...and it seemed to suggest you'd advocate it today (ISO #30). If Ben revealed his target and it wasn't you, would you still go for it?
(d) said Hito was scum, and you'd go after him "tomorrow" - what happened to that?
(e) earlier asked for TWO res'es. You even claimed to KNOW you were being targeted by the cult.
(f) faff about Ben, saying he has to claim his target, no he doesn't, yes he does, no he doesn't
(g) say the Benmage-could-be-cult argument is a damn good point (ISO #67) and then say it's awfully convoluted (ISO #75)

All in all, I'm getting a definite scum-vibe from these posts.

Vote: Wraith

[AurorusVox]

I don't buy that post as meaning he stalked you. It seems he thinks you were fake-claiming because your insanities didn't match with your proposed thoughts.

Wraith, care to respond to any of the other questions that I asked?

[AurorusVox]

(a) tried to set-up subsequent lynch

targets

in the event of an RC-town flip (in the same post that you voted for him)

a) total misrep, I said we should "take a look" at those people, not lynch them.. And if you bother meta-ing me, you'll find that I say things like that rather often - I like keeping possibilities open, and putting them out there.

Please pay attention to the bolded. I said lynch targets - i.e. "people we should take a look at". Not a misrep after all, eh?

f) Throughout this day, I have always advocated Ben claiming his target. AFAIK I have never said the opposite all day. Another misrep.

You know what?

Benmage doesn't have to claim his target,

because he basically said his target was me in this post:

Also: I searched and have a rez kit, and I strongly believe I am Benmage's target.

LAL you received a fetish and you think I stalked you, yet you only claim one insanity.

vote wraith

If he hadn't stalked me, he wouldn't have thought I had two insanities and "lied" about it.

Oh - not a misrep after all, eh?

I don't have time to get into the rest, but thought I'd point out that I don't buy your deflections.

[AurorusVox]

MoI: what's your position on letting Benmage kill tonight and why?

I’m not willing to lynch him at this stage because the chance he is Cult goes to zero with a successful kill tonight. And lynching him is the only thing Town can do to ‘not let’ Benmage kill. He will not respond to any other stimulus. So any discussion outside of whether to lynch him is pointless.

Nice way to not answer the question. It sounds like you're saying you don't want to stop him from killing, but do you think Benmage SHOULD kill tonight, and why?

The obvious answer is that Benmage should not kill.

1. The odds that he hits Cult, despite his bravado, are slight.
2. Keeping the Town alive pool as big as possible until we get some actual alignment flips to work with for relational tells will aid the Town long term.
3. The precious free Vig bite Investigators get should be saved until midgame.

My question to you – what purpose do you have asking the question. It’s not going to tell you one bit about my or anyone else’s alignment.

You don't think he should kill - and you have a bunch of good reasons for Benmage to NOT kill...yet you're not at all interested in lynching him today? You've already admitted that lynching Ben is the only way to stop him from murdering. How can you justify NOT voting for him then?

In fact, in that first post, you even suggested you didn't want to lynch him

because

he could clear himself with a successful kill. Which is almost an invitation for him TO kill. Effectively you've said "I won't lynch him because he can (and should) kill tonight"

And so here is my purpose: highlighting your hypocrisy between what you want people to think about you, and what you actually do. You logically ought to have been on the Ben wagon at some point today. Instead you have a vote on VV? Yeah.

[AurorusVox]

@VV: waiting on my Wraith questions to pan out before I think about moving my vote.

@SeaCore; El G is always going to be El G. The reasons for voting them are always going to be the same. I think it's more useful to look at others whilst remaining "happy to vote El G" because if people know your vote is basically static on El G, then when you question them, you lose all pressure behind your questions.

[AurorusVox]

Furpants, I'd like for you to let MoI answer his own questions thanks.

[AurorusVox]

Furpants, I'd like for you to let MoI answer his own questions thanks.

No AV, terrible posts should be pointed out by whoever sees them

Wait for fucking MoI to respond and you'll see it's not a terrible post. God.

[AurorusVox]

I still have a question of you too MoI. I'd appreciate you answering it rather than classing it as part of your "slog" since it's about something different.

[AurorusVox]

My most likely theory: He stalked Benmage and lied about it. But we'll definitely need a flip now.

Since Ben didn't hear a noise, which was the basis of his case on Fate, I find this unlikely.

I'm still waiting on MoI to answer my question. I had wanted to wait for it before I voted him. I know he has weekend V/LAs but it's Wednesday now and I've had the question in the air for some time. We've got a while til deadline so I think I can hold out a little longer, but if it gets to Friday and still no response, I'll re-assess then without the answer...

[AurorusVox]

Regarding insanities for Commune, wasn't the argument that if it's thinly spread, you end up with a new neutral zero point, so the issue of commune/insanities is kind of moot? Like, everyone having 1 insanity is the same as everyone having 0.

I'm not sure about the idea of having Furc as a wild card, it just seems a pointless action if there are 2 people on every grave already anyway. I think you've either got to have him take part in the plan, or he shouldn't rob. Not to mention he could inadvertently get a cultist off the hook for not robbing :\

Will try to get around to ISOing kunk tomorrow and weigh him up against MoI. I'm hoping MoI will have responded to my question by then too.

[AurorusVox]

Can't wait for MoI forever. Will explain "terribad" question later if need be. It was really very cool.

Vote: MagnaOfIllusion

[AurorusVox]

And so here is my purpose: highlighting your hypocrisy between what you want people to think about you, and what you actually do. You logically ought to have been on the Ben wagon at some point today. Instead you have a vote on VV? Yeah.

You seriously think that I’ve been abrasive and mean but care what people think about me? Don’t be stupid. It’s pointless grandstanding to huff and puff about something you can’t control. And that’s exactly what Benmage’s behaviour is … something that can’t be controlled except by lynch.

I mean what people think about what you do i.e. whether what you do is scummy or not. But you avoided my question re: justifying

not

voing BenMage. Instead you chose to go for the "don't be stupid" comment.

[AurorusVox]

*voting, bah spelling mistake

[AurorusVox]

Triglav:
I don't think MoI would self-vote as town. Like you say it narrows the read we get from wagonners, and I think MoI would be able to argue his way out if he wanted to try. Reads like a gambit to me, not least of all because I considered saying "Why would scum self-vote?!" and getting all confused.

[AurorusVox]

Ben, how does that help at all? Are you trying to prove that you're bloody, or not bloody?

[AurorusVox]

Icerint - you said that I was sure BM wasn't cult (I think?) In fact, I've been like saying BM IS cult all day. Or is that what you meant?

[AurorusVox]

I support using the graverob to limit cultist activity and using those people that are generally agreed to be scummy to do so. I'd much rather see any of the three that VP mentioned rob graves than Triglav, for example.

[AurorusVox]

Iecerint: I understand that he looks to want to murder (and thus investigator at this point) but there are just some things about BM that don't make sense if he really was what he says. I think it will be resolved tomorrow. If there is no murder tonight (since he hasn't revealed his target, it will be hard to prevent the murder from taking place), I will be pushing his lynch again tomorrow. If there is, then I will be somewhat placated, though he could be hoping to get lucky (unlikely but possible). I (and others) would prefer a small list of targets of the murderer to remove the doubt of potentially getting lucky, but he's refused to comply :\

It's a different thing to SAY you'll murder and actually murder. So far all I've seen is him SAYING he'd murder and then taking pains to not follow through with it, including wanting to lynch Fate D1, and then not murdering him last night (the flavour would have gone from "Fate: Soulless" to "Fate: Murdered", thus proving he stalked, whilst not harming town). Until he follows through with it beyond doubt, I'll always remain a little sceptical.

Furpants, do you still want me to explain my "terrible" question for MoI? I don't think he'll answer so it probably won't matter if I explain what I was doing now anyway :\

[AurorusVox]

Furpants, do you still want me to explain my "terrible" question for MoI? I don't think he'll answer so it probably won't matter if I explain what I was doing now anyway :\

Yeah, I'd be very interested to know what was going on there.

(Apologies for any mistakes, I'm drunkposting atm >_<" meh, I like posting...I've tried to go through slowly to make sure it's all fine...!)

Let me take you back to your refutation:

Oh come on, this is definitely tunnelling. He's being entirely consistent here. He says that Ben should not kill under any circumstances. But he also says that the cost of the only action we can take to stop him (

using our lynch to kill a near-certain townie

) is too high. While I think we should have at least made a credible threat, I don't see any hypocrisy in his position whatsoever, and I think you're actually discrediting the MoI case by attempting such an obvious distortion.

The important part is what you've said that I have bolded here. What I was interested in seeing was how MoI would react to my question; if he had come along and said exactly what you did, I would have known that he was scum. Why? Because he HAS NOT said that BenMage is a near-certain Townie. MoI has said than BenMage is ACTUALLY a grey area. That he doesn't know if he is town, wanna-be murderer, or cult. I built a number of questions up on MoI to get, in his own concrete words, his opinion on Ben because I could see some troubling issues with them. Thus, if he'd said "near certain townie" I would have KNOWN that he was simply saying what he thought was the best to say in each situation; and not actually what he thought of players. This is why I had wanted to wait for his response. If he had said something else, I may have felt he was townie and might have pushed a different lynch today; if he had said "near certain" about Ben, I'd have nailed him on my own terms, and could proceed to lynch him with happiness and joy. The fact he dodged it (I think perhaps because he knew it was a significant question for my read of him?) leads me to believe he is doing it on purpose to avoid getting caught out.

Let me restate: MoI has said Ben is a grey area. Thus he has NOT got the same excuse that you offered as to why he didn't want to lynch Ben. I had wanted to see his response (this explains why I waited so long to vote him) because if he had said the same as you, his fate was sealed. He never answered, which makes me angry. But there we go.

[AurorusVox]

@F_T, pertinent point is here (scroll down a bit to get to this):

MoI - do you think Benmage is more likely cult or investigator?

At this point I’m undecided. Asking me yesterday before Night and I would have said most likely Investigator. I can see his personal grudge with Fate overriding any Town sense he had. When he didn’t follow through and kill the rendered useless Fate last night and ‘prove’ his Town cred it shoved me back into the ‘Benmage is Unknown’ category, especially in light of his epic backtrack on his reasoning for stalking in the first place. The fact that he didn’t follow through gives me pause to consider he might be cult playing a very ballys / stupid gambit. He has managed to basically derail the conversation each day with his declarations. The longer this cluster-f with him goes the more I question him as investigator. Fate’s flip will also help shape my opinion. Benmage being Investigator would be more or less solidified if Fate flips Cult.

[AurorusVox]

Hmm. A major disadvantage of B is that Feysal & NPAU won't be able to launder, which as has just been raised, is pretty important. My vote goes to A. Let's just hope El G pays attention this time.

A - 2 (Seacore, AurorusVox)
B - 0

^If people do this when they vote it should help keep the tally going.

[AurorusVox]

So whose grave am I robbing?
[/joke]

El G probably makes more sense than BS due to the fact that a number of folks on the MoI wagon were on the El G wagon. But still, it would have been better if it was said in all bolds and all caps that a switch was occurring. GG to Tom for catching it though, or who knows what confusion may have ensued!

[AurorusVox]

CD3

Username:

AurorusVox

Did you Hear Noise?

No

Did you Ward? If so, who?

No

Did you gain Insanities, and if so, which ones and from what actions?

No

List all of the insanities you currently have:

None

Did you

successfully

resuscitate? If so, who?

No

Were you murdered?

No

Did you Commune or Investigate? If so, who, and what result? (Note that these are both poor N1 choices.)

No

Bloody?

No

Twitch?

No

V/LA til Monday!

[AurorusVox]

Back from V/LA - only ten pages to catch up on? Tsk tsk.

My catchup thoughts:

xvart: scum right here. Why stalk 99.99% confirmed town? To mask other means of gaining insanities. If he felt this strongly, why not do it D1? <-- answer this please, xvart :\

Wicked: Don't like the suicidal insanity grab. Not sure what to make of this. Silly silly insanity to take, but not sure it indicates alignment. What did you have against the sanctioned insanities, Wicked?

---

SpyreX: warrants a longer paragraph because I'm a bit confused. I did not like the non-claimed Rez, until Furpants rez was mentioned. Hmm.

Let me see though. Icerint claimed to have been notified of the failure.

But, in the Res action info in the OP...
"Any Resuscitate action targeting you tonight will fail, and

the player who targeted you will not be notified of the failure.

"

Icerint being notified goes AGAINST the logic of FT res'ing, since if FT res'd, Icerint should not have been notified of his failure. BUT, would Icerint

have

been notified of the failure if FT was actually Greater Ritual'd or murdered (i.e. would he have been notified because of THAT failure, not the FT ressing SpyreX failure?)

Lucky break for Spy if he is scum and FT did not rez him. Until I have the answer to the above, I am willing to believe that FT rez'd and was double-killed for now. For reference, put me firmly in the "scum not claiming to have rez'd scumSpy is optimum scum play" camp (if Spy is caught as scum, rezzer also gets caught - not claiming it minimizes risks)

---

El G: oh god, El G, what the hell? Willing to put L-1 vote down, wary that day hasn't lasted very long and we might have a rushed hammer before the night action chart is put into action.

In the meantime:

Vote: xvart

I would happily see xvart go today as well.

[AurorusVox]

AV, you did not claim your CD3.

Did it way back before my V/LA.

Not sure if your El G points were for me personally or not? I agree El G needs to swing, but want to make sure we're ready for it this time.

---

He's admitted that he won't follow through because we're bleeding numbers at the moment.

No, no, no. I am not seeing this pitiful excuse work on TWO players now. Everyone let Benmage get away with claiming stalk and not proving it by murdering. I will NOT see that same bullshit used to defend someone else. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO MURDER, DO NOT STALK. We were "bleeding numbers" when he DECIDED to stalk. So that excuse is utter crap.

The fact that xvart wants to back out of murdering (i.e. so he can say "oh, that insanity, it was from stalking NOTTHERITUALNOREALLYIMEANIT") screams scumscumscum. I actually liked Hito's plan because I want to call xvart's bluff (i.e. to be clear, I don't condone murdering Furc, but I know that it would NOT end up with murdered Furc because xvart is cult and can't murder). But let's get this straight: xvart is

not

killing, right?

---

Maybe I'm getting triple snuk'd and its cult claiming a stalk hoping they don't get called on it but runnin strong

I really doubt that is the case

.

Why? We've

already

let Benmage get away with doing exactly that. It's not a leap to assume we'd do it again.

Note, the xvart line can be changed from "why stalk 99.99% confirmed town" to "why cower" AND ITS THE SAME THING.

Well, maybe that's why I said that I'm willing to put El G at L-1 when we've got our plans straight? And, in fact, "why cower" is not the same, since cower isn't an ACTIVE action, but a PASSIVE one that is forced upon you. You don't CHOOSE to cower. It happens when you choose nothing else.

Thus, the only way Ice could not be bloody AND have targeted FT AND FT could have died is if the Resuscitate action itself failed.

^Acknowledging the compelling evidence in favour of FT res.

[AurorusVox]

As far as I understand Hito's plan:
-If xvart is town and kills Furc, we've gotten confirmed-town in xvart (and he can be res'd to endgame).
-If xvart is scum and kills Furc - or if Furc does not die at all - we've gotten confirmed-scum in xvart (and he can be lynched tomorrow).
-The only issue is whether or not Furc wants to/can be trusted to use his res-kit and potentially sacrifice himself for the town.

[AurorusVox]

Howso? If Furc res'es, he cannot be saved from death, and so his death flavour would read "murdered" and thus we would know that xvart followed through and was confirmed town.

[AurorusVox]

[off-topic]
Don't know if anyone will care but I got engaged on Saturday! ^-^
[/off-topic]

Congrats! ~Mod.

[AurorusVox]

@Spy, I'm talking about how we let Benmage get away with it when he didn't finish off Fate. Also, I only support(ed) the xvart-kill plan because I'm certain xvart is scum and therefore couldn't kill. But since Furc isn't, I retract the support for the plan since it relies on Furc being on board.

And thanks ^^"

[AurorusVox]

Yup, that's why my vote's on xvart atm, and I'd happily see him go today.

I also agree that we

could

test xvart with the elab-o-plan on scummy candidates, BUT, can't scum mess with it by warding their buddies (i.e. if we come to a consensus about who to stalk)? Otherwise we're relying on xvart picking who to stalk himself (and look how that turned out)

(Very moving words! I've got a lot to look forwards to!)

[AurorusVox]

El G, would that night action be "take part in the ritual" by any chance? You've caused too much WIFOM to keep alive in good faith. If an xvart lynch is a pipe-dream then you're the only one for me.

[AurorusVox]

Vote: El Goosuki

[AurorusVox]

Furc. I've explained since D1 why I've found El G scum. I've voted him every single day. I explained that he would be getting my vote in my first post back from my V/LA. Take your wagon accusations elsewhere.

[AurorusVox]

CD4

Username:

AurorusVox

Did you Hear Noise?

Yes

Did you Ward? If so, who?

Nope

Did you gain Insanities, and if so, which ones and from what actions?

Nope

List all of the insanities you currently have:

N/A

Did you successfully resuscitate? If so, who?

No

Were you murdered?

No

Did you Commune or Investigate? If so, who, and what result?

No

Are you bloody?

No

Twitch?

No

What's with xvart saying he wouldn't murder, then doing it? ><"
Oh well, hello confirmed investigator! Now we just have to make sure he doesn't go full on murderer,

[AurorusVox]

Hey, SpyreX and Seacore, any reason why neither of you robbed El G's grave?

[AurorusVox]

Why are people so eager to claim their (failed) actions?

[AurorusVox]

That's what I was referring specifically to, lol, I'm in a 160-character mafia game atm and it's having a small impact on how I post in other games ><"

Assuming the res-claimers are town, I don't see the point in claiming it. It tells scum who has res kits, and who people are finding towniest. I mean, in the case of Iecrint, I think it was helpful re: Furpants' night-action in light of SpyreX. But unless we have other unclaimed res'd murder-victims I think we can keep it to ourselves.

[AurorusVox]

Vote: SpyreX

I was going to wait to see what he had to say for himself re: not robbing El G's grave, but now that Benmage has already mentioned cult warding the grave, there's not going to be anything different out of his (or Seacore's) mouth. The question is why cult'd ward the grave - to create a headache regarding El G's role? To commit more people to robbing graves tonight? I guess if Spy (or Seacore) was going to rob the grave (and get the insanity) he may as well have warded and fucked the plans up instead.

VV, if you think I'm capable of faking the interaction with SpyreX, then you have more faith in my acting skills than I do.

[AurorusVox]

I agree with Andrius' sub-radar play. Note how he kept his RVS for the duration of D1. Note how I keep forgetting he's even in this game. I also agree that warding the grave could set Spy up, which is an interesting argument. Of course, cultSpy could have warded the grave to use that as an argument against him being cult. Spirals ensue.

[AurorusVox]

Possible =/= probable.

Not to mention that even if FT res'd Spy, that doesn't stop Spy being cult. Actually, I've been thinking about this, and I reckon that it's probably more likely that a stalked-cult will receive a res than a stalked-town; since Cult know that any noises they heard did not come from the cult, and since wards/communes/investigations are publicly announced, it makes any cult-who-heard-a-noise either stalked or res-targetted the previous night. And since there are other people to help out, I think it's likelier that cult will be successfully res'd from a murder than town. This isn't anything solid, but it is a potential point in favour of cultSpy.

[AurorusVox]

So would you suggest we all do the same? I'm down for doing it but I'll wait to see what Percy says about the validity of using this technique. If all those votes supposedly count, then I see no reason not to do it.

[AurorusVox]

Vote: Benmage
Unvote
Vote: hitogoroshi
Unvote
Vote: Benmage
Unvote
Vote: hitogoroshi
Unvote

Vote: SpyreX

I have just though, is anyone keeping track of voting records external to the game? I started with a spreadsheet, but let it fall by the wayside. I mean, this does screw with vote-position analysis to an extent, right? >_<"

[AurorusVox]

We have to make sure scum don't sneakily slip a hammer vote onto Spy while we're testing these insanities before we have our Investigator's Reference and grave-rob plan ready.

ANYONE WHO ISN'T VOTING SPYREX CURRENTLY: do not end your test with a vote!

[AurorusVox]

\o. Aye

Triglav: your point about deadFurc is valid, but my worry was less about whether or not we'd catch scum with it (we would) but that we'd go into night with no clear grave-rob plan. A bad thing that we can avoid by letting scum know that we'll lynch them if they try it.

[AurorusVox]

My respect for Percy literally* just made me shit my pants.

*not literally

[AurorusVox]

There's no harm in trying, though, other than potentially killing Percy. What's your objection to it?

[AurorusVox]

It is correct, that scum only need one of their number to perform the ritual

Where did you come up with this bullshit? In the OP it clearly says that they need 1/3, rounding up, which is 3 people with 7 scum.

[AurorusVox]

Still, it's possible that 4/7 of the cultists have zero insanities.

[AurorusVox]

I think Nico is banking on us not doing the same thing twice in a row without El G's flip. I support someone stalk/killing Nico and/or lynching him in later days. Otherwise the precedent is "Fuck up and take Cower? No worries!"

I know Benmage suggested he wanted me to graverob. Is that still the case?

[AurorusVox]

Okay. I'm happy to perform my graverob duties tonight, but I'm thinking there could be a benefit if I delay for one night; the fact is that I have occult books and zero insanities, and so may be one of the few people left that are able to make sure that one of the "no claimed insanity" people actually have no insanities. I was going to Commune tonight for that reason, but what do people think? Is it worth it? Just that if I rob tonight then I obviously won't be able to check those people on future nights. OTOH, I'm not sure if scum would actually avoid claiming gained insanities. But I just thought I'd put it out there for thought before I say "YES I WILL DO IT"

Thoughts?

[AurorusVox]

So am I to stalk tonight or use my books? :S

[AurorusVox]

Scratch that. I thought I had books but I don't ><" my mistake...So I'm all over Nico tonight (Y)

[AurorusVox]

? I'm cult because I don't have books?

[AurorusVox]

I honestly thought I had books. Let me put it this way Ben: as cult, I could fake having had books incredibly easily. In fact, fake-communing is BY FAR the choiciest cult action than stalking/murdering.

[AurorusVox]

Fine, but that won't prove you wrong about me being cult </3

[AurorusVox]

I agree to grave rob (Y)

[AurorusVox]

I think Ben just has a hate on for me because I rode his ass raw about not going through with his stalk...

[AurorusVox]

Which was such horrid logic. You actually thought I was scum creating some insane gamble instead of seeing the simple logical truth.

No; I admitted that you were town AFTER you had completed the stalk/murder attempt. Before that, you had NOTHING to back up your stalk claim. I could turn around and say: "Oh, hey, I stalked XXX" and if I then didn't follow through with it, that WOULDN'T make me town, would it? Saying anything else is the horrid logic.

Then there was the whole having occult books..not having occult books....Yeah I think you're best grave robbing tonight.

If I was cult, why would I not have just lied and continued to say that I had books? I mistook what item I'd searched for N0, and then acknowledged the mistake. If I was cult, on the other hand, I'd know which of the zero insanity people really had zero insanities (i.e. which ones weren't cult) and fabricate a result that would be impossible to distinguish from the real result, which would ALSO enable me to explain away an insanity. Admitting I'd made a mistake makes NO cult sense whatsoever. This is further horrid logic.

[AurorusVox]

(1) Suggesting Cult was making the gamble, and wanting the act followed through is one thing. (2) But you believed that I was cult lying to be the case over me being town/stalking. I.E. you believed the farfetched slight chance conclusion over the 10X more logical one.

How does (1) =/= (2)?

[AurorusVox]

^I agree

[AurorusVox]

CD5

Username:

AurorosVox

Did you Hear Noise?

No

Did you Ward? If so, who?

No

Did you gain Insanities, and if so, which ones and from what actions?

Yes, Twitchy and Taboo (Forensic Tools) from Robbing Graves.

List all of the insanities you currently have:

Twitchy and Taboo (Forensic Tools)

Did you

successfully

resuscitate? If so, who?

No

Were you murdered?

Nope

Did you Commune or Investigate? If so, who, and what result?

No

Are you bloody?

Nope

Did you Stalk? If so, on who, and was it successful?

No

Twitch?

Nope (I heard no noise)

Vote: AurorusVox

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

Unvote, Vote: Xvart

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

Unvote, Vote: Xvart

Unvote

[AurorusVox]

*twitch*

Shitfuck. I'm all flu'd up and thought I had a train to catch (it's just got cancelled), so I was swiftposting.

[AurorusVox]

I feel so stupid for not twitching. I thought it was only if you heard noise ><" I fully expect to receive an infraction PM today and will be more careful in the future.

Vote: BabySpice

-Mentioning it today but not yesterday means he isn't concerned about stopping Benmage from being modkilled. In fact it makes it look like he's actually trying to get him modkilled. Why would a townie do this? Also, how could Benmage be a murderer? He robbed his graves last night as evidenced by the fact that all four graves flipped. And he's going to do the same every night. He can't win as murderer.

BS: At this moment we either have (a) One bonafide murderer (xvart) or two not-yet murderers (i.e. two with one kill each). We can't have both. We can't have one probably murderer and one likely murderer. It. Doesn't. Add. Up.

Also, isn't it pretty obvious that MoI was the murderer? He flipped with 2 insanities, neither of which he claimed.

[AurorusVox]

Why didn't you bring this point up yesterday? If you want to make him more careful, yesterday was the time to say it, not today. Why did you wait until he could get modkilled?

He's not going murderer - he's going to be robbing graves which can be checked. As is xvart. I don't get this anyway - are you saying that you think xvart killed LB or that Ben killed LB? If it's the first, then Ben has NO successful kills and would need THREE murders to win. Also in this case, xvart would already be a murderer to your mind and he's who you should be focusing on, not Ben. If it's the latter, then neither xvart nor Ben have the required 2 kills to be a murderer; both would need an extra kill; both have robbed graves last night; it's not going to happen.

[AurorusVox]

And if its neither then why are you going on about it in the first place?

[AurorusVox]

You could have done this yesterday. You could have said "oh hey Ben, where was your insanity infraction herpa derpa be more careful in the future." And you've ignored me disproving that you should be chasing Ben.

[AurorusVox]

I know this is far too late but

lmao...that was so wrong and yet so funny.

^this a thousand times

---

-I'd like to point out that the order in which people claimed a failed stalk on BabySpice has NO relevance at all for how likely it is that they're being truthful since cult would know they warded and that it would have failed just as the stalkers would know it failed.
-I support the nominated people restalking tonight since having a failed stalk/murder proves nothing.
-Feysal raises a very interesting point that cult may be warding all stalk targets. If they want to do that and waste their night actions, then great - this could mean they can't launder and can be caught out by forensics so hey ho go go gadget forensic tools.
-Andrius has been sailing through this game taking silly night actions and conveniently explaining away insanities, and needs to contribute (today) more and/or get lynched (tomorrow?) more.
-Benmage's offer to be stalked and killed should placate peoples' (I'M LOOKING AT YOU BABYSPICE) concerns about his motivations. The fact he's STILL going on about it is even more reason for him to die.

Am I to be directed at all tonight, since I was directed last night?

[AurorusVox]

Nacho; any scumreads you'd care to share?

[AurorusVox]

I think Vas should claim the hammer on BS, just so he misses the chance, again.

[AurorusVox]

-Plum, are you intentionally only cropping up to defend yourself?
-Vas, there's more to the BS case than that - his persistent push on Benmage stinks.

[AurorusVox]

I don't mean only today. Do you think that the accusation against you as only posting to defend yourself previously in the game is an accurate representation of your play?

[AurorusVox]

BS is wanting to focus on Ben being a murderer (which he isn't) because he might fulfil the murder wincon (which he won't) rather than focusing on getting cult. Not to mention that xvart is FAR more likely to be able to fulfil the murder wincon than Ben, based on, y'know, him actually having a successful kill >_>

[AurorusVox]

No, VV. I'm not talking about earlier, I'm talking about TODAY. Are you reading today's posts or just relying on your earlier Plum case?

[AurorusVox]

Rrrrrrrr. And

if

I flip Town, that makes what of VV, xvart?

Not "when", Plum?

---


I hope everyone has themselves a merry mafia Christmas!

[AurorusVox]

Surely talking about infractions could be considered quoting mod contact (=illegal)?

Basing it on this:

Insanity Infractions are private! Common sense prevails!

Unless you just mean: "Who has an insanity infraction?" Better to ask mod about that directly rather than making silly threats.

[AurorusVox]

"Nico's worse get Nico"

Bussing your partner won't help now, Cult Spice.

[AurorusVox]

It says what infractions do in the OP; get two of the same and get modkilled - get any three and get modkilled.

Why don't you do what Cult Spice did and ask the mod directly rather than trying to ask questions of people with infractions? Trying to get them to slip up and get themselves modkilled? Eh?

[AurorusVox]

If I tell you in any terms what I know about infractions, that would go against "Mod infractions are private" and the general rule of not quoting mod communication. Ask the mod directly. Doing otherwise stinks as a silly means of not having to scumhunt.

[AurorusVox]

Unvote

Get that shit on track.

[AurorusVox]

Sounds good (Y)

I know Percy-player is V/LA til 2nd Jan. Presumably it's the same for Percy-mod, so it's onto whenever Vi can get things posted.

[AurorusVox]

Xvart makes the best grave robbing sense imo too.

[AurorusVox]

Wait, the Inv. Ref says only sanctioned stalkers stalk, but Ben said everyone should stalk him. Halp?

[AurorusVox]

^This is why I got confused. I

thought

he meant non-nominated stalkers.

I don't think this will work if multiple people are all directed to stalk you, because cult can claim to have stalked and then when someone else murders you they'll claim they tried too?

[AurorusVox]

D5 Claimed Insanities FINAL

VP Balter

[4] - Twitchy (N2, Commune), Soloist (N2, Rob Grave), Obsession (N4, Stalked), Hallucination (N4, Rob Grave)

Balter lol.

[AurorusVox]

CD6

AurorusVox:

Did you Hear Noise?

Yes

Did you Ward? If so, who?

No

Did you gain Insanities, and if so, which ones and from what actions?

Yes: Soloist, from stalking; and Compulsion, from receiving a Fetish of myself.

List all of the insanities you currently have:

Twitchy, Taboo: Investigate, Soloist, Compulsion

Did you

successfully

resuscitate? If so, who?

No

Were you murdered?

No

Did you Commune or Investigate? If so, who, and what result?

No

Are you bloody?

No

Did you Stalk? If so, on who, and was it successful?

Stalked Benmage, unsuccessfully

Twitch?

*twitch*

Vote: AurorusVox

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

Unvote, Vote: Xvart

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

Unvote, Vote: Xvart

Unvote

[AurorusVox]

I got stalked? And my stalk was unsuccessful? :'( Bad night for me all round.

At least we caught Nico /withholding vote

[AurorusVox]

ISO 174-7 weren't enough about Babyspice? Ignored it more than Andy who...ignored almost everything? Hmm.

[AurorusVox]

I presume we'll be nominating one of each person to follow through with their stalk/kills rather than having a free for all where cult get to hitch a free ride on the murderwagon?