Reckamonic's Ocarina of Time Mafia..OVER! Was Hyrule saved?

[DTMaster]

I'm replacing Agar. I never played OoT. Sue me.

[DTMaster]

Vote Just a Bit off Center

because a good lynching would make him literally a bit off center if you know what I mean :p

[DTMaster]

1. "facepalm" [quote=JabLoC"]You're the first person to actually ask, so I don't understand the usage of "again." My vote was supposed to have attention called to it for not being a random vote and thus creating discussion that actually has meaning.
[/quote]
Jmj, do read again, the answer to said question is listed above in the quotes. The motivation behind

drawing attention to one self to determine the scum wagon isn't something a scum player would like to do over day 1

. It's written there in gold with reaction/action play.

2. Lady Lam, can you link the game for that self meta? It's suppper stretching the argument when you apply that meta to another person. And the concept of defensiveness is slightly weak since there are multiple reasons for one's defensiveness.

In this case since almost all the attacks are on Jabloc over his cupcake attacks, he's clearly the only one defending from that. It's a biased argument, perpetuated by the Jabloc attacks.

Persona A attacks B. B defends. Person C states B is overly defensive. C attacks B. B tries to defend off attacker A and B in this argument. Then it snowballs into awfulness.

3. Zwet is crazy Ythan. Worrying about miller cpr claims before he can prove it is suspicious. If Zwet is even serious there will be extra kills or lack of them (weak since there are multiple reasons for those), and if he's a miller he's a good sanity check for cops. If he's scum we'll see that.

When I read your post: the subtext reads as "get rid of the claimed extra killer".

4. Chesskid is a good kill target. I'd totally daykill that guy for the case of: contributing thin air to the wagon.

5. Mothrax is off. Something about that post reads: bandwagon hopping. Which I think is fine this early in the game, but the reasons are off.

Edit Hm something about insults/ad hom attacks reminds me of the point I made earlier.
6. Fate OMGUS, lets be OMGUS buddies and cross vote!

Unvote. Vote Fate

7. Zwet is still a very good kill target. Less noise, but then I wouldn't be able to see his avatar giggle when he types "giggles". /creepy moment.

Unvote, Vote Ythan

My brain is there. Brain says go.

8. Holy crap monies. That's expensive.

[DTMaster]

Then she'd be dead and I'd be sad :<. "cries in his corner"

[DTMaster]

1. Ythan I refer back to this post.

Miller CPR doc is a terribly suspicious claim. But it's just a claim in a crazy game and he hasn't done anything else suspicious. Except maybe claiming more than miller for no reason.

The claim it self, if it was true is verifiable. It's something to keep an eye on. I'm reading into the "terribly suspicious part.

2. In reference to Mothrax it's the post with his vote on JaLBoC. I'm mulling it over and a triple repeat of the same arguments sends alarm bells in my head as a place where scum can hide behind the popular wagon. The statement with ad homim/insults reminds me of the point I made to LL in response to the "over defensiveness" argument. Mothrax mentioned this in regards to his meta on you. It's a self note to see if the same argument applies here with the: "NO U ARE LYING" responses.

3. My vote with Fate is a joke response to his vote on me. We have mafiascum history of fun times in games, when we don't want to kill each other. That's off topic. I know what OMGUS is, and I'm not literally applying it here. I'm using the over used waterdown version here.

4. When zwet types "giggle" I picture his avatar giggling and it's creepy but lulzy. As a player, he's a good kill target just on gameplay meta alone since he posts minor one liners in most of his posts. It's hard to determine his towniness versus his scuminess. On history alone he generates a lot of noise to the thread, but it's not the best indicator for scuminess. He's best reserved to be shot, over lynched in terms of gameplay as you would shoot an anti-town player and lynch the scum read.

I'm not linking his role claim argument here if that's the contradiction you're talking about. There are points against and points for him, and that's good enough for me to keep an eye out for Zwets.

5. P-preview! It's a start. That delves into player's meta over scumminess/townieness with respect to how someone draws attention to themselves. Heck scum-Fate has less balls then town-Fate play interms of that, and it's more obvious now post game where Fate relinquished his leadership scum hunting style to Spyrex and won the game via double bus. And Fate was being tame.

The idea isn't farfetched. The whole: OMG YOUR LYING argument gets us no where since both sides settle on an absolute judgment.

[DTMaster]

1. It's been done before. Fate claimed Miller Beloved Princess as Miller Bullet Proof d1 before. Nikanor claimed Hider as Townie day 1 before, same with Spyrex as Weak cop. I've claimed day vig (as day vig scum before) D1. What's the issue again?

2. I didn't self note. It was broken down in my stream of consciousness. hence my fault over the confusion over yours.

3. Zwet right now is a better vig target then a lynch target. Chess is the best vig target at the moment and I'd shoot chess over Zwet right now.

4. I never said never, and using the work "isn't like a scum player" =/= never. However, this is a semantics argument, not a scum/theory argument. In my original post, "isn't link a scum player" is better substituted with "not likely" since it's more ambigious while giving a negative tone about the original vote reason. Like I said, that idea is better supported

through meta since it's a play style issue over a scum argument.

Self note, do Meta search the player.

[DTMaster]

I answered the question with a rhetorical question. D1 non-pressured claims are not scummy based on experience with players who did it before. It's associated with something they have to hide by placing a distraction out in the open. That reason may or may not be for townie reasons, but from experience people who question it were generally scum.

Case: Hacker did a Lynch all Miller claim on Fate and tunneled vision in that game here http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=14737

[DTMaster]

Agreed. "sips on his glass of brandy, which is apple juice actually"

Unvote, Vote Diddin

[DTMaster]

Holy crap this thread doubled over 2 days. Catching up now.

[DTMaster]

I want to say this before I finish my catch up: I'm on page 16-17


7. Whoa wut. Suicidal One Shot Double Vanillaizer? Explain plz.

Edit 1: Oh you die when you vanillize people... OMG WUT WE CAN CONFIRM YOU AND NOT WASTE A VIG NOR A LYNCH?! AND YOU'RE A NOISE GENERATOR!! OMG OMG THIS IS AWESME. CHESS LYNCH DOES NOT GO THROUGH.

Gais

I volunteer to be vanillized. If Chess vanillizes people tonight he dies. This effectively means all "vigs" get a shot elsewhere, and the lynch also works elsewhere.

In terms of pure statistical play, I'm willing to be a VT to give us a better statstical advantage in terms of town controlled kills today versus potential scum derived kills. If Chess lies and I'm vanillized the town wouldn't have lost an important role. We can confirm Chess elsewhere, mornic or not, and we should. It's confirmation through blood.

[DTMaster]

@Blood
Um. What? It's simple as: If Chess lies then we save ourselves a mislynch.

a. If Chess is town and does get blocked, that mean scum is trading a vaniliazing role for their block. They are exchanging a free death, and making 2 players powerless for a free mislynch. In terms of disabling people, allowing chess to vanilize disables 3 people over the 2 that comes from the chess mislynch/nightkill.

b. If Chess is scum, we will know from the fact that he's alive and if he does vanilize people.

c. If Chess is scum, and is blocked, then this has to be done under precise situations (ie. two scum teams one of them more willing to frame Chess, etc, etc) that it's impratical to be paranoid about that till tomorrow.

d. If Chess is town, he will vanilize two people who offered themselves (Me and Cupcake are willing recipients of that), and he will die. Thus we get a lynch and (if there is a vig, a kill) else where. Chess WIFOM is solved since Chess suicides. We lynch a scummy person. The "vig" if it exists gets a shot elsewhere.

Scum has less mislynches to burn through

Letting Chess suicide is more benifical to the town over scum for the above scenerios. We can validate him via role information. I'd rather take a town confirmed chess via role information over an unconfirmed Ythan anyday just because you know he's confirmed.

Edit: Nikanor has a confirmed read on him.

Also I'm Town and I'm a PR. I'd rather lose my PR then have a wasted lynch.

Edit 2

Assuming he is town it still tells us nothing. You really think that vanillaizing would change allignments?[ We are assuming chesskid is town, assuming you and DTM are town, and that chesskid will target you and not be blocked, etc.

Too many things go wrong, too many things assumed. Its a very scummy suggestion from both of you.

@chess:

no scum is gonna night kill you. Theyd love to have you take out town PRs.

Scratch that Blood is scum Look at that change between OMG LYNCH CHESS BECAUSE LETTING HIM VANILIZE PEOPLE IS TOO UNRELIABLE to Chess's PR IS SUPER ANTI TOWN NO SCUM WOULD STOP THAT. If chess is town and the only reason scum would stop it is they don't want to vanalize into goons.

Chess' ability is both anti-town and anti-scum depending on how you use it and if you use it correctly. Like a town RBer. Or a CPR doctor.

Unvote, Vote Blooderection

for the massive contraction in the above quote. It sounds like scum frustrated at the wagon stalling and trying to get a potential danger out. He's masking it via spreading paranoia through the town in losing their PRs. Rather then that, we can direct Chess and use it in a town directed manner for pro-town motives. Chess is leashed. That's tons better then a blind lynch him stance.

[DTMaster]

@Chess
Generally if you vanilize an SK, if they become the typical SK (so just a kill). Similar to how you make mafia goons.

@Diddin
Face palm. This guy is a good vig target. I'd totally shoot him on the spot for his rehash post.

@Blood.
Why are you justifying a

town read lynch?

. I don't care how badly you think chess is as a player interms of skill, but that's not the point of the game.

You are here to keep your town reads, and lynch your scum reads.

The fact that you are degrading this argument to a skill based argument goes against town play because you're lynching town reads. If you lynch people based on inepitude in skill, you wouldn't ever lynch scum properly because there is a thing called

skilled scum players

.

You sir are doing it wrong, as Nikanor states.

[DTMaster]

ooooh.

[DTMaster]

1. Chess no you are not cleared. You are not D1 lynch material, but you will suicide before lylo if you don't die now. The only reason you shouldn't be a vig target/lynch wagon is because of your role. It makes you conformable in other ways. Your game play alone is grounds on vigging.

Even if Nikanor is claiming a cop innocent result on you

it does not exclude investigation immune roles

. Also the mod claimed

that it's possible that he could lie in our PMs in terms of Mason confirmed alignment

Dram did that in CEBM, and this element is possible. where the light baku was actually a 3rd party lyncher. The baku was confirmed via mason link to 2 players as town aligned. The truth was stretched since the light baku was lyncher to the dark baku an SK.

2. Exlion, write out a hypo redirector in both scum/town Chess in both scum/town redirection scheme. The absurdity that Chess' ability goes awry either means: Chess is telling the truth or scum redirects to cause other people to lose their powers, killing chess. Considering the suicide element of Chess' claim is key, we can verify it.

3. Substrike, do you know what the Cucco is doing? It reads first as a hot potatao (which should be redirected to the mod if Zwets vote goes through). Otherwise the hint here:

And that last person is kinda right. After staring intensely at each of you, the Cucco spread its wings and jumps on Substrike22.
He tries to defend himself, but it's no use and the Cucco decides to firmly attach itself to his head.
...

With a Cucco on the head, let's just say he's not very credible..

.

Suggests a vote mechanic change. See in bold. My 2 cents.

3. Nik claimed a sane investigative role information about chess.

[DTMaster]

Feeling slightly shitty. I won't be able to post till Monday (Thanksgiving). I'm developing a cold and I can't concentrate on my genetics research paper, let alone this game.

[DTMaster]

I decided to drop my earlier notes I was going to post and focus on what's happening now. I'm super behind and rather be useful.

1. Kai this post talks about obv town Zwets. Can you explain your read on him via meta links if possible? Edit: This was explained. Don't need to answer.

Self Note: Double miller claims reveals also an element of mirroring (see Day/Night mafia in my wiki). It's possible to break the game via claims later at the MC stage.

Also in the post below saturation of flavour arguments generally come from scum. I relate back to my play in Mafia of Order and Gorrad's play in Kingdom Hearts Mafia (both in my wiki); where I/Gorrad used flavour analysis to mislead the town. I agree that both LL and Ythan at this point looks suspicious. The game is Mafia, not LoZ OoT. Flavour makes the game enjoyable if you know it, but it shouldn't be the basis of the game.

Aside: Dram does usually keep accurate to the flavour (See both Disgaea and CEBM). But he counters it with fake claims. The only effectiveness may come from flavour cops, but speculating on flavour should come up if that role is claimed/determined.

2. Ythan I'm confused you are saying Dram broke flavour and modified it. Le gasp roles are independent of alignments ? D: /sarcasm. It's a theory I adopt usually in theme games (Especially both Nikanor and I designed games like that). I'd also apply it here even with Dram's meta of accuracy just because it leads nowhere.

3. Kai I still love you <3. I take constructive criticism well (and hope to not anger the Troll next time ).

4. Oi Gandalf this post is way terrible for the reasons outlined earlier. If you want to prove Chess' townieness we'd let him kill himself. If he's town it's more productive to do that rather then instant lynch the guy who can prove his alignment.

5. A point about BP discussions. BPs are useful when they are unknown. Now that Cupcake's BP status is known, it doesn't function as a good town PR because scum know where to direct the kills away from. That part of the role has served it's purpose. It's up to the other PRs to make use of that knowledge (ie redirect to the BPs) and go from there.

6. BL given this post on your stance on why you defended Chesskid Did you realize that both Cupcake and I offered ourselves to be vanillied up? It's a controlled situation. I don't mind the whole: Chesskid was anti-town based on gameplay, but this issue could have been solved so much easier. Stating that you are worried about chess' use of his power is null because the moment chess betrays the town we caught instant scum. The moment Chess vanillized people we have potential cleared townies (barring other weird roles like 3rd parties or multiple scum factions).

Think of it as risk vs reward, and the reward of catching fake Chess gives us 2 trust worthy townies to lean on with a caught Chess.

7. Something about Evil pacman's vote seems off. here I'd totally investigate this person on the basis of this unvote because I read: active lurking. Mental note: keep an eye out about evilpacman since this could be a sign that he's keeping up with the wagon progression under the guise of reading.

Edit: YAY someone else sees this!

Edit 2: Ehhhhhh jmj did the same thing. Keep a mental check on both players. Reminder do a search on these user's post history.

8. OMG A LYNCH WOULDN'T GO TOWARDS A LYNCH WITHOUT A CLAIM UNLESS SCUM PREMEDITATEDLY HAMMDARED YOU OR WE HAVE RETARDED TOWNIES. KALM DOWN FATE AND CHRONO.

9. ZOMG, Zwet literally claimed PGO except more awesome since he can save people!!111.11.1.111. via reflex power. That role would be fun, and hard to play as.

10. Omg Flavour fight. Before I read on with this ridiculous debate

Ythan I assume you claim that your role does not have the quote from the Zelda wiki and you are counterclaiming Le Cupcake for this

because this is getting beyond retarded in terms of scum hunting. That's the only logical explanation for this line of argument.

Break time since I have a headache. I'll take a stronger stance once I finish. I'll also return to post my update on my BE vote since I left off there but I skipped a head to post some analysis I thought was important.

[DTMaster]

I'm reading backwards since this explosion is huge. Just a quick question:

1. Ythan I provided a list of theme games that Dram did. He has a history of providing fake claims to the game while being accurate to the flavour of the game. At the very least he's provided a list of roles that do not appear in the game. Why do you believe Dram (or Reck) did not give fake claims when I have a working meta list suggesting else where.

2. Substrike I find it odd you find Ythan's attack to be pro-town. You state that he drags people down with just emotional put downs. How is that pro-town? This reads as anti-town actions to me because Ythan is accusing Cupcake of AtE, when in fact Ythan is using a form of aggressive AtE to put down his opponents (according to your read on him). Do you find this to be town on town action?

You also stated that your initial vote on Cupcake was for lurking, but you can't determine scum from this flavour noise. What's your current stance on cupcake?

I believe with Nikanor's analysis about the BP role. Also judging on page 54 Ythan's rebuttal to Cupcake's argument is troolllulzy, in the fact that Ythan threw a big fat "NO U" at cupcake. I find that to be quite anti-town, and scummy. When I get to the original arguments I'll see if Ythan's stance is solid, but that exchange is terrible.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: Just some quick questions lol.

[DTMaster]

Sorry guys. I have a massive head cold. I'll try and post by Sunday.

Mods If I don't post by Monday I would recommend a force replacement afterwards. If this flu is killing me my midterms are coming up and I won't have time to finish this game properly. I apologize since I really want to play.

[DTMaster]

1. Ugh sorry I had a massive head cold and I'm catching up in my assignments and readings. I decided to start a little fresh after the head ache of the LL/Cupcake/Ythan debacle. The more I think of it the more it reads as

over compensating with flavour

.

I refer back to my game in KH mafia where Gorrad the "most pro town player" focused on flavour all game to distract the town in almost lynching the town tracker Riku who millierizes himself when he uses his power. Riku uses the power of darkness which spiralled into flavour fights and almost lynching said person till DGB replaced that person and set things right. Everything about this triangle debate reads as something very simillar to that.

Ythan also ignored many of Nikanor's

Mafia Game Play

arguments in regards to the claiming of said protective power. Gut instincts say I'd investigate Ythan. He fits this case of: Gorradism.

Edit: Rayfrost you remember this game since you were in it. I believe the general consensus was Gorrad was over zealous town with flavor. But I do believe that even the most towniness of players never forsake general mafia game play due to flavour.

2. Mothrax needs a wagon. Much like Chrono. Both go on my Kill list. Both BE and Fate outlined the reasons already. Both of these players are doing the dance around their aggressors. I hope to see a wagon around either players.

3. Ughhh Gandalf/Shotty Hydra I want to kill it with fire. Mainly from the Shotty head. Contradictions are killing my brain. I already see the fires coming from the anti-towness of Shotty. It comes with the list I put up Zwet in terms of noise.

Edit: I missed the soft claim since I started later. I went back and now I'm worried about Shottyism which is induced stupidity. Meta evidence says: the soft claim is legit but how he handled it. Rayfrost's case at this point (page 60 - 61) is good with the contradiction between heads / stances. But when I read Deke's point about the soft claim I do see his argument. But something about Meta said: stupidity weighs in over this.

A poorly designed soft claim can be from the result of stupidity. I find it odd that GIS wanted to be vanillized as well. I was only aware that both Cupcake and I were the original targets to be chosen at the start with chess.

Note to self look this up. Timing is critical to when GIS stated he wanted to be vanillized. If it's after chess' statement about towniness, then it's a potential source of brownie points.

Also I find Deke's point about defence poor due to the buddy argument. It's often done with Ythill if you ever played with him. Um, invitational 7 with has-cow had Faraday buddy with Ythill all game who was my scum bud. I did a scum read-bus on Faraday in that game pointing this out and Ythill was getting hints of that and counted Faraday as potential scum. Linking LL and Cupcake is too much of a stretch.

4. Untrod.... omg he's trying to incite the cupcake debate again. Kill him now. Noise alert.

5. Substrike. You hadn't had anything to say except you think Cupcake is scummy in your own reasonings outside the flavour analysis. Your contradiction between flavour noise and scum arguments is weird here since the majority of the posts have been this "noise you've been reading". Post here. You also talk about play style not being an indicator of alignment... which is nice except it support's Rayfrost's argument:

So what? What's the point? What are these scum arguments?

6. Ok... so you agree with the GIS case but you keep your cupcake vote because you're not done your reread? Why are you complaining about the pressure when you're not making use of your vote? I don't mind this wagon I think it needs to take off.

If any of you are unfamilliar with my lists, my reads go as this:
Lynch
Mothrax/Chrono

Kill
Zwet, Gandalf, Untrod

Investigate
Ythan

These are the actions I would do if I were Vig/Cop. They are not directing said roles as: Lynch = scum reads. Kill = anti-town read and include my lynch list. Investigate = gut reads. Any real vigs/cops should follow their own reads. This is how I roll and you can look that up if you don't believe me.

Unvote Vote Substrike

. My brain is here. I'm going to stop since I'm still sick. I'll read more (last page) and do my self note above.

[DTMaster]

K catch up game.

1. kdub: That statement about Rayfrost seems contradictory. I recall Rayfrost played to your "town meta" as scum in both his normal and hydra account as Ed Frost. Can you back that up with meta links?

I believe mine are: Linked Role Mafia restarted after Kaiyruu found an imbalanced game in the original setup and Disgaea Mafia 1 (found in my wiki and can be linked if not)

2. Exlion, a thing that bothers me is: what's the difference between Ythan and LLD's flavour aguments. From what I understand LLD's stance was: there wasn't anything contradictory to the Nayru claim but it is possible that Cupcake-scum exists via fake claim. The rest of the argument: that you find her scummy is fine (ihmo the connections argument though seems lazy witnessed by Brr mafia where laziness of connection argument was a reason the game was lost but that's from personal meta)

3. Substrike: There isn't a contradiction in your post which is not the problem when you read it over. What the problem is your explanation on why you kept your vote on cupcake:

a. You mentioned that you voted cupcake originally for lurking which is fine. But you did not do any follow up from the lurker vote (i.e pressure/attack/etc). You commented on the arguments in the claiming situation and stated that it was not useful. But this didn't change your vote.

b. Now the transition from: You voted him for lurking -> flavour arguments weren't informative -> keeping your vote doesn't logically flow. It doesn't read like a townie actively trying to scum hunt and get activity out of the lurkers.

You tack on the fact that Cupcake is still scummy (some how) but Ythan's agressiveness is making you mad. But you don't elaborate on why Cupcake is scummy. This doesn't read as actual scum hunting, rather it reads as someone tacking on a reason to their vote.

If you condense your reasoning for why you voted cupcake it was:

a. You voted Cupcake because she was lurking at the beginning.
b. She is scummy.

But if you read the post you also have the following statements:
a. Flavour arguments weren't useful.
b. Ythan is being overly aggressive which is causing poor play due to it.
c. Fate is doing the same
d. You agree with the statements about Gandalf.

What's missing is
a. What you think of Cupcake now that she's posted a ton of content because your argument for a is invalid now.
b. Why after all the debate she is scummy because you don't connect the arguments that were done to a scum case.

Hence noise done with observations of playstyle and agreeing with other people's cases when you don't advance your own.

Posting this now so Substrike can comment. Follow up continues.

[DTMaster]

1. @Gandalf
I've been over this. The cases that chess is town I won't go over since it's self explainatory. The case where chess is scum

works in our favour on who he vanillizes

. Think of it like this:

Chess-scum-team is trading in removing power roles by

confirming their targets as not as the same faction as chess which works towards clearing townies

. If there are multiple factions, chess can hit opposing scum. If it's a single faction

we are having cleared townies on the run simply through claiming

Run blocks/redirect scenarios in your head. If that happens we know who's telling the truth and we can use wagon analysis for that. Chess' role works on so many levels to clear/discredit people based on if he is successful or not that night action analysis can crack the game open. The key words lie in:

The vanilliazing effect and suicide clause.

2. I don't understand where this boss term keeps popping up. Since when was a race a boss? I thought it was like Fairy or Hylain, or Zora.

@Substrike
1. Except that Cupcake has been responsive to Ythan's flavour attacks. If you consider the arguments: it's natural to combat flavour with flavour if you were attacked solely based on flavour arguments -> hence the whole spammage.

If you found the whole flavour thing to be garbage to read through, why are you picking Cupcake out of the mess specifically?

I'm tired and I have a few self notes left to do. I'm ending it here for now.

[DTMaster]

Also self note I haven't come across many posts by these people. Do an Iso read. DTM out:
1. Untrod Tripod
6. Kairyuu
14. diddin ZONEACE replaced D1
16. Dekes
18. mothrax
27. bunnylover
28. Aikage

[DTMaster]

Recent points: will finish the reread later.

@Chess
I know I meant the psychology behind why scum-chess would choose his vanillizing targets. You can understand someone based on night action analysis which would be applied to you in the point I make with Gandalf.

@Dekes
1. I checked Cupcake and Katsuki. Cupcake hasn't posted since Tuesday which appears to be just inactivty. Katsuki has I think about ~4 games worth of activity (it appears Mayo clinic mafia just ended link here have a read over Katsuki) http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 51&t=15164

Therefore I verify that Katsuki has been ignoring this game since Monday of the last post.

2. However I find your Substrike wagoning to be sloppy (as much as I like this wagon). If you are voting Substrike for voting for the "wrong reasons", then do you see Cupcake as town? Which would be weird since you outlined an active lurking argument on Cupcake.

I get bad vibes when I read the transition from Substrike attack/vote with a Cupcake side dish. It doesn't logically flow.

[DTMaster]

@Vote Count.

Counting Zwet, and Substrike being Cuccoed ... (wait. Substrike was Cuccooed. Paranoid idea set on very high about that. )
There is an extra vote on LL (I think Kai mentioned this?)
There is also an extra non-voter between Fluffy and Aikage... (which begs the question "Who is Fluffy")

Otherwise this is normal.

[DTMaster]

Oh crap I didn't finish my post! Posting my working draft.

@Gandalf
1. Gandalf I was explaining the chess point in response to your attack on my original attack on your Chess stance post claim. I think it was here

2. :S. I dislike this panic about end day lynching. It's like golden fodder material to burn people with panic. Ideally I'd rather have people lynch their scum reads rather then lynch for the sake of lynching (motivewise). Game theory wise I understand, motive wise it's sending me mixed signals:

Note to self: Higurashi would be a person to read over simply due to paranoid delusions of his argument about: "who's a worse lurker". It rings off in my head since it should be a question of "who's scummier", rather then "lurkier".

@Beefstier
1. I've gone over why Jaloc was being defensive because the cycle of attack and defence (Ihmo early game he was the only one being attacked which leads to skewed reads over what's being over defensive). I suggest reading that and putting your thoughts in as well.

2. As well the defense to the voting argument was already posted a long time ago. :S

Can you go into more specifics on these slight scum reads or are you agreeing with all the attacks made on these players since that's about half the list of people who were attacked (at least)

@Nik
1. Two scum is common for a game of this size. Mixed in with 3rd parties. "shrugs and points to my theme game meta in wiki"

2. Depends on the situation of the non-voter. I would agree, but Dram introduced an evolving SK role in CEBM. Reck did have a vote in that game, but he needed to develop his night kill via harvesting souls first. It's simillar situation to day-vig claims. While it's a very public role, it can still be scum. I was a scum day-vig in KMD's Krazy Mafia.

(Aside: Though public roles like Dram's modified Jailer role in Gods of Men suggest else where; which is also countered by the ressurected modified cult role of Faraday :S. But these roles are much different to non-voters but the idea of public roles like this still stands)

Tl:dr; as a theme game I wouldn't apply general mafia role meta in this game.

@Cupcake
Thanks for pointing that out. I remembered since I responded to that question due to this post by Reck/Dram

We're not going to directly lie to you in the role PMs, a la Reck's Mad Mad Mad Mind.
That's all we're promising.

Since you three claimed mason-goddesses to each other: It makes this into a triangle of confirmed basis. That means Chess is sane-cleared to be town (baring craziness, etc, etc, etc but assume accurate assumptions) = 4 players cleared out of 28. It's a start.

@Chrono
Herp derppped unvote. :S I dislike it. You unvote because you don't see your case progressing (which I would rather see you vote and keep on attacking rather then give up like this) and then do absolutely nothing.

@Le
1. :S, even with timezone difference I thought hydras get a QT for communication or something. Maybe if Dram oks it it'll help the communication error.

2. The Katsuki head is active enough for ~4 games, and I posted a direct link to one that finished and Katsuki head did post in the end game talk. Since Monday of the Cupcake's last post:

Katsuki head posted Starting Tuesday:
Attacks TBM (a single liner)
Attack Cooldog
An attack to Spyrex
Asked Kathy a quesiton
Attacked a point that Exe made
Thought about inning in Super Mario Bros
Posted in Mayo Clinic end game

Wednesday:
Mayo clinic end game
Wanted to catch up in a game. Talked to Spy/Elle and wanted to lynch Shotty.

Thursday:
Then attacks RC for the same point Dekes made in this game (activity in other games =/= playing when Katsuki is "catching up in all his games").
You are perplexed by "anti-scum"
Mad at Eli
Outed in Mario

Friday
This game! Woot.

Deke's active lurking statement sticks due to the above activity (which I assume you were questioned by him during this time but you didn't respond). Dekes 2/3 is meh and super weak, especially 3. 2 was negated by 1. The only thing that is legitimately used against you is "active lurking". The rest is meh and 3 looks like Deke is sticking on something for the heck of it.

@BL
Or we could, you know just lynch/kill the man and be done with it. There's a reason for my lynch/kill list. I don't see why you'd wait around for Aikage should post to make a read off him. You could take a pro-active approach. Which actually raises a few questions from that slot so

Selfnote: Read Aikage (if I didn't include him in my self notes earlier)

@Dekes

On Cupcake
1. Post-claim, well mason-link durhhh.
2. Pre-claim I agree with Nikanor's analysis about the BP claim and how Cupcake handled it. As well the shear amount of people questioning how Cupcake's role worked.
3. The only good argument presented against Cupcake was the active lurking statement because that was an actual scummy reason. Hence I outlined that I agree and hinting to at least 1/2 of the heads to respond to me about that. The flavour argument that Ythan used was ugh wtf bbq.
4. I don't mind that LL has been defending him (IHMO post-mason claim explains a lot). I do see how you interpret he's coasting -> see active lurking which is bad. Since I spoiled myself already via reading the mason link:

After-claim, it makes sense now. Pre claim: I agree hence why I brought up the meta link for some pressure. Now the reason is out for the link, I don't mind as much.

Both pre-claim/post-claim: not today's lynch. Pre-claim = person of interest but more importantly person of interest with lots of attackers. It's worth investigating the attackers. Post-claim = even more reason not to lynch him: Mason claim = godly.

Last issue: This breaks if one of the 3 goddesss flip scum (since all flips scum due to mason lying).

On your vote
1. Substrike didn't vote for the wrong reasons? Then explain the following statement:

However, while his [Substrike] vote for Cupcake is for the wrong reasons,

that doesn't change the fact, that Cupcake is again avoiding this thread now that they're not in any danger of being lynched.

You stated that you didn't vote Substrike because of his voting reasons, but because of your original stance. But in the above quote you clearly stated in your vote switch after you stated Substrike only defended his vote on Cupcake. This implies that the biggest reason for the change was the poor voting: which is what was see when you observed Substrike's vote.

What's weird is that you didn't imply any two scum theory/cross-bussing here until I pressured you.

I went back and reread your stances over Cupcake and Substrike.

I read the transition of your Cupcake case as this:
Questioning of Cupcake's scum list and Katsuki head of his partner -> Saying cupcake hasn't given a clear read -> Agreeing that Ythan's flavour analysis is correct with the Naryu fake claim -> Questions both LL and Cupcake -> In Iso 17 drops the flavour arguement but maintains the linkage between LL and Cupcake due to the defensive nature. Kinda ok. Read on and you see this transition into a GIS case -> BL (which includes rolefishing of Zwet and Chess both players who claimed and also were read as anti-town.. odd juxtaposition from earlier Isos to iso 21) -> Substrike for not scum hunting.

It's funny to see this argument (the lack of scum hunting argument is a scum sign) over and over when I also notice a lack of scum reads from Dekes in ISO #2. I see lots of passive scum hunting in regards to commenting on people's scum lists while he "questions" cupcake. Dekes Iso #6 is odd because when you reread the vote on diddin in Iso 3 and compare it to his stances: You see stronger questioning of Cupcake over Diddin. The vote on Diddin seems extremely odd since there was no mention on Deke's stance on him untill questioned.

There are subtle breaks in logic flow that doesn't mesh well. It reads as responsive over case building. What gets me is that Dekes pulled a GIS case in the middle of this read that confounds that. This should be expanded upon:

via self-note: Determine the context in which the case was pulled.

Gut logic says: there is something afoot there.

[DTMaster]

I just read the claim as well: This reminds me of Legacy of Ancients Council mafia where members of the high council consisted of town/scum members. With a neighbor hood that large (which Fate claimed 7-8 ??? I think) this reads as it.

[DTMaster]

Some thoughts while I mull over this claim.
a. What substrike said about members not claiming unless is necessary is pinging on the towndar for me. (Seems odd to say that now from a scum perspective)
b. Also I have a thought for the sages to think about (do not answer these questions in thread) since it's a crazy idea I thought of that confirms though we shouldn't trust flavour analysis (Aside from Harry Potter Mafia and Nik and I's KOL mafia being good examples of not trusting flavour) but people seem to still want to do flavour analysis.

If a few of you are sleeper roles (as in you need to kill a specific target to gain your powers) it's possible to see that:

a. Dram is accurate to the flavour and it's likely that your targets if they are "villians" like Ganandorf would be scum.
b. If your targets are town aligned players, then simillar logic applies.
c. This validates any flavour analysis since Dram is known to be accurate (see his other Theme games) and any flavour based roles (like a flavour cop).

If there is a larger number of you to fall under this catagory.
a. In terms of villians, accurate flavours cause diminishing returns from scum lost to "town power". Scum would either have to be extremely powerful individually. (If you think about it in terms of game role balancing if all the targets were scum: scum would have diminishing power in exchange for town gaining power). This seems off for balancing it.
b. If they are largely town targets that might balance out (exchange of PRs) but it seems like a huge hit on town (i.e. if you are considering it, it means 6-8/28 people, some who are town to consider town on town actions if flavour was accurate). That's off.
c. It's more likely you have a mix of a and b to equal out the numbers, and this especially works out if you have flavour being independent of roles.

An angle we could try, is to break the game via the neighbours (but we have to assume most of them are town) via the above principle in terms of balancing. I'm not sure if it's possible though.

[DTMaster]

How is that role supposed to be pro-town? I highly doubt there would ever be 3 adjacent scum players. (It's highly unlikely) To me it seems like it would end up doing more harm than good because it will most likely be targeting 3 town, possibly 1 scum, probably not any more than that. It's basically a mass (fail) roleblocker.

I found this post odd now. I read GIS' role and the above argument sounds like:

This role has anti-town, as most pro-town roles have anti-town elements (i.e. town RB, town doc, CPR doc, cops that are not sane, jailkeepers, vigs, etc) rather then this claim sucks and it's scummy. The purpose is to self direct kills to his bullet proofness (which is the second one claimed in this game lols). It can also direct actions. It doesn't stop cop investigations, nor role blocks, nor whatever.

This role actually makes more sense as a role that a townie could epiclly use to save the town or hurt the town (hence double edge sword). Much like Chess' claim. I don't see why this role = scummy when your arguments show how it fits in the town really well as a role that could do good or bad things depending on how you use it.

[DTMaster]

It works better if there is a few sleeper roles in the neighbourhood (if we can confirm either neighbours or targets) for game breaking strats. If there is a lot more, then there are a lot of holes and the Ythan debate shows that flavour shouldn't be trusted. I probably wasn't clear and I assume the sages have a better idea, but I would like then to weigh in the number of

"sleeper roles -> that require their targets to die" to their targets and see if true flavour accuracy works out.

If it doesn't that means we can screw flavour analysis (so kill half the size of this thread) and play normally.

[DTMaster]

Also Kai

wtf shift?

any more explainations? It might clear 3 more people if there is one or increase the likelyhood of them being town: the person Nik cleared but I think he claimed unshifted powers; the person who was trying to target player X but the cukoos hit Cupcake; and player Y when the Cukoos hit substrike.

[DTMaster]

Certainty, the idea should be entertained in the background while we go forward. :p

[DTMaster]

/activates Martyr powers! Nooooooo. /joke.

[DTMaster]

Guys sorry about this ( I msned Dram earlier) I'm going to be V/LA till Sunday due to work and school. I'll post my thoughts then. Busy stuff came up.

[DTMaster]

I have a few points before I sign off.

1. Chronopie I think the Twinrova role may still be in the game. in CEBM Reck lived in two player slots as the dark Baku. Even though he died The light Baku didn't win because he needed to kill the slot that was the new vassal.

2. If scum is in the neighbourhood they know who's sealed/not and who's in the group. In response to Niks theory this makes sense except scum would be likely to attack fellow neighbours just due to their sleeper role (as in they would reason it out due to PRs). Therfore i don't think having the condition that Chrono/Substrike must suspect a neighbour is right.

Heck Hascow warned us in invite 7 that he wanted to break from the scum in the neighbourhood group. It's still possible (but getting unplausable) that all of them are town aligned. (recall my earlier question to that sage group that I wanted them to discuss amongst themselves).

Also

Vote Dekes

since this is where my attacks left off. I wanted explore this case
a bit more right now so I await Dekes response.

Chrono seems more townie withthe claim to me. I don't see the scum
motivation to claim neighbour to a scummy person.

Also substrike did you ever answer my case on you? I don't recall it. Do answer it.

[DTMaster]

Guys Twinrova might come back (ie ressurection mechanic like the Baku in CEBM) I would find it odd that chrono would claim a contradiction as scum.

[DTMaster]

Wait why is Exilon alive? Isn't LL a PGO? Also HOLD YOUR EXILON VOTES. Yesterday Kai mentioned an ability shift . That has to be explained first because Exilion could have a real guilty on someone else.

[DTMaster]

Nikanor can you confirm the ability shift last night? This is important.

[DTMaster]

I would ask Exilon to confirm his sanity against the claimed millers. This could be a ase of insane cop.

[DTMaster]

Because if Nik lies then he condemns town Exilon. Thus all 3 masons are scum. If he is telling the truth then both groups can exist as town. As town Nik wouldn't lie about this. As scum he's backed into a corner.

[DTMaster]

Dude we have reason why this is possible. Kai said a shift is occuring but never said what. Of this is true then both sides can be town with the right results.

[DTMaster]

Um I said that why is Exilion is alive. Did you remember that we have possiblity of abilities shifting? Kai mentioned this earlier.

[DTMaster]

That if exlion targeted you but it investigated down or up the player list on page 1 like in Gods and Men or Mindscrew 4. Thus he migh have a result up/down from your slot.

[DTMaster]

Thus Exlion might have investigated Zwet or Moth in. Shift. Zwet claimed miller so DUH.

[DTMaster]

In cases of these claims of Chrono to Exilon, it reads more of antitown but earnst play when they claimed. Also nikanor I'll get to your post when I get home and not on my phone

[DTMaster]

1. No, because Exilon might have a real guilty (i.e. the shift is up and he has a guilty on mothrax). Thus Exlion's ambition = scum land mine. If there is a shift occurring, we need to

verify what direction it is going which will help pull information from yesterday's investigation from both Exilon and Nikanor's cop on Chess and verify Exilon's next action for today since he is a day cop

Also your day-protect would have been submitted for the day-action for your PGO to work in that case, which is seriously stretching it (but not implausible)

2. What I also note is that

Bosses = scum in terms of faction,

which makes sense due to the two miller claims. If this the case I want to point out the previous questions I asked the sages to think about in terms of who they are targeted for with their seals with this new information that

boss = scum

. Which brings the question: someone mentioned bosses out of the blue before in my notes (which bugs me).

3. PGO = paranoid gun owner. Anyone who targets a PGO is shot and killed, therefore it's a reflex killing role. Hence the claim yesterday.

4. Nikanor: Finally your point. Wouldn't they just be operating under the assumption then on who they think is scummy in general? Ihmo I slightly see your point on how scum neighbors are more likely to be biased in their natures of their suspects but we are falling into the meta trap surrounding neighbors (which again was one of many reasons that invite 7 fell through at the wagons). I would rather observe their overall scum hunting portfolio that they present rather then focus on this insight in terms of the neighbourhood.

I see it, but only as a part of the solution. Ihmo in the case of substrike, he has other reasons besides neighbourhood analysis to be seen as scummy. Plus you know with players like Chronopie we are not dealing with ideal situations and there are other stronger tells that define a person's scuminess versus their anti-town play style. (Case and point GIS hydra).

[DTMaster]

Nikanor can you confirm the shiftness due to your soft claim on Untrod/Exilon from N1 and D1 respectively? You can say you can confirm a shift and claim the shift after Exlion claims if you'd like.

[DTMaster]

Also my point is still valid if the two players are still bad regardless of if they fallen into the neighborhood trap. So no you didn't refute that. That logic applies to both players. If we take the neighborhood issue aside there are other, much more stronger reasons for their cases. However Chrono's claim appears to come from a townie side so I disagree on that end.

[DTMaster]

There is a way to confirm this shift. Cupcake, D1 did you self target that day?

[DTMaster]

It was claimed that you activated your ability at the start of the day. Logically that means you activated during a day shift (according to Nikanor)

[DTMaster]

Any mason can answer this obv.

[DTMaster]

Hmm based on that:

We activated Nayru’s Love to protect ourselves. This resulted in the cuccos being disintegrated into little blue particles. LLD points out that this is likely the blue force field known as Nayru’s Love because it is logical that when things collide into a force field, they disintegrate. Ythan’s refute?

You'd think people arguing in the great plains of Hyrule would attract monsters...
Anyways, you argue loudly about how obviously the one going under the pseudonym of "Chesskid" is horribly suspicious.
As representative of all races bicker frantically, one of you turn and see...

"Hey... what's that big cloud?"
"I... don't think that's a cloud..."
"Oh my god... HYSTERIC CUCCO FLOCK, RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"

As all of you scatter in order to avoid the threat of CHICKENS, Le Cupcake trips.
Upon seconds, the Cuccos are upon him, doing what Cuccos do best:
...Vanish in flashy blue particles?

Hmmm.... I'm going to mull things over. It's late and I need to process this new info. There is a contradiction in actions somewhere here between Cupcake/Mason Trio, Exilon, and Kai's claim of the shift.

[DTMaster]

Also applied shifting is odd and reeks more like busing/redirection rather then that.

[DTMaster]

1. With Nikanors explaination I actually think we don't need to test aanties anymore. It makes sense to Kai/Beefster. What we need to do is verify if this shift fluxuates or is actuated yet so Exilon can pull another result.

2. Ythan I'd assume you read my point which is much father down in terms of the witches. It makes more logical sense that the role has not been defeated yet (reread CEBM with the Baku) in terms of motivations of Chrono's claim. I don't recall seeing "other witches" earlier (self note).

3. Also my VLA is gone so I can post :S. It's weird don't ask.

4. It's been only ~2 days. I'd wait or do a post search before I call lurking charges. Selfnote I have to do that as well.

5. Beefster can you use your ability claimed by Kai to verify today's shift?

[DTMaster]

Ebwop Sanities*

On my iPhone so typos ensue.

[DTMaster]

Activated* typos

[DTMaster]

I have an idea. If each player self votes and Beefster uses the Roll out attack. We can determine who loses their vote and thus the shift. For who Beefster can target we can just hypothesize -13 and just test it.

[DTMaster]

@Moth
Since when are neighbours all town exclusive Mothrax? With a mason and a larger neighbour group, odds are there is scum in the neighbour group. It's implausable to have a high town ratio across the two groups (however not impossible since it's been known that neighbourhoods are a good source of meta breakage)

I know that I argued that both neighbour-scum are just as likely to attack other neighbours, and that bad neighbour Chrono/Substrike might not suspect their neighbours due to just bad play. But I'm only refering it in the specific case of Chronopie/Substrike:

a. Since a Chronopie claimed his role in a pro-town fashion therefore this reason outweighs Nikanor's theory. Chronopie has a meta of non-idealized mafia play, therefore we need to take into account this.
b. Substrike voting on Cupcake is a stronger indication of scuminess rather then the neighbourhood case.
c. I outlined that attacks on neighbors can be due to to PR status over bloc.
d. I also outlined that it's more efficient to focus in on scummy players when scum hunting. Generally neighborhood hunting on it's own (as in if you are the sage and you suspect a scum sage player, this would naturally show already) is not indicative of alignment. I don't think it's an absolute requirement but it should always be something to think about.

But that doesn't mean the theory is full of shite.

a. The bias is true from a scum POV.

b. Site meta has it against neighbors. Oddly enough if there are scum neighbours they rather have the confusion of the full group. As more town neighbours die, it becomes exponentially harder on the surviving neighbours to stay alive just simply due to the argument: It's in the role. Invitational 7 is a good case where

it was believe that a scum neighbor was a requirement

and both town neighbors were lynched. Battle Mage Mafia in my wiki had scum-neighbours. Legacy of Ancients too.

On the other side, site meta is useful in that scum neighbour flips bring more credit to the neighbours left. (As an aside: I would totally make an all scum neighbour group (appears in their role) have in their role scum neighbours, and have some of them be antimillers in a super bastard game to screw with everyone)

c. Also scum-neighbours might have a sleeper role as a fake claim. So lololololololz. They might have an actual, you know normal role. So any form of scum hunting is good.

d. Finally I don't like the way you talked about scum with the sleeper PRs. It feels like you're hunting PR threats, not scum. The sentence where you talk about "bigger scum to fry" feels odd. "What's these bigger scum"?

e. Exilion investigated

before the PGO claim was complete

and we already explained that there is a shift. Had you not read the last 3 pages or something? We would know if LL is a PGO if he was dead (durh). But he didn't hence why I wanted to clear the shift up. It's likely Exlion is sane (or paranoid/random but I'm going to assume sane for now just because his investigate matches Kai and shift) and we can go from there.

[DTMaster]

If the shift changed then that's how we know. The point of this is to determine

what the shift is so Exlion can get a sane investigation

. Druhhh.

[DTMaster]

1. @Beef A bit late. I'm keeping my vote on Dekes for now since you did your second rollout. If it fails again I'll self vote for the shift analysis.

2. Based on experience of Ozimadar shifts

a. The shift can change, but it only changes per day cycle. (Therefore it is constant for the day/night cycle that we observe. So it should be the same for what Beefster observes today) Since we have a failed result, Beefster is our only reliable way to find what the shift is.
b. The shift is passive and is either a random function or inputted by the player. Usually. But since we have Cupcake being successful it's possible that we have an active ability (or his resolves first, or something else is in play).

3. I just got weird tinglings between NL's defence of BE. The defense is out of place since LL points out an interesting point. BE's reaction to the double vote weirdness supports NL's idea though. Plus his role's penalty system doesn't make sense as a scum role (just simply put it works best as an anti-town town aligned or maybe neutral role due to the self votes that pile on).

4. I "headfacedesked" at the SK speculation. We had 2 yellow flips. Both are witches/bosses that make Twinrova. We have a claimed boss-cop. Logic says boss-scum = mafias.

Only mafia could determine these two as SK since they would be not of their factions,

and would know that a pair of non-town players just flipped as a non-mafia faction.

Herper derpa. I would attack hard on LL and Chess but: LL is a mason >>;;. Chess is confirmable via suicidal role.

5. Substrike: Iso post 20/21 should be sufficent.

6. Substrike: We've discussed the possibility of the shift already. Hence Beefster is the most accurate way of determining the shift for Exlion because his role is a public action that shows who loses their vote. Exlion's action is just a guilty/not guilty and from his claim: Reckamonic won't tell him who he actually investigated.

You are eons behind in the discussion since we are at the testing phase. Beefster's result now determines if Exlion is lying or not.

7. Substrike: Ihmo here is a summary of the people who've you said you disliked: Cupcake, Nikanor, Rayfrost, GIS, Exlion/LLD, Chess. As someone who claims to be publically scumhunting multiple people (i.e. advancing your case on your scum list and weeding out potential neighbour scum), you're missing half of the equation in that you're mainly focusing on the mason group, GIS, Ray (based on his reaction I assume he's not a neighbour since he's asking them to claim. That and your attack appears to support this.) are all people who appear to be outside the neighbour group.

Chronopie can you confirm that Substrike is attempting to add pressure on the sages in the QT? I find it odd in his claim that he says they are scum hunting on both public and QT fronts when I don't see Substrike doing it publically since his scum list are all non-neighbours (or at least appear to be. Rayfrost's status is not determined.) If substrike isn't doing that effectively in QT I'd suspect he's one.

8. I'm reading Aikage and I'm getting a headache. It's like pure shottyism here. I have a conflicted read on him since

we should do meta research on the player based on his super poor game play so far.

I suspect we have a second shotty here. Particularity in how Aikage demonstrated his non-voting status and his soft claim, it gives good VI vibes. But if someone shot the man I wouldn't mind. I would mind if someone wanted to lynch the person though.

[DTMaster]

Addition: His point on GIS was also revealing since it pointed out both Fate-scum and GIS town reads. Aka Aikage was right. We should take some of his stuff srzly. I mean for real.

[DTMaster]

Oh wat...... Aikage is a newbie?

[DTMaster]

@Moth
I missed your post lolz. Oopsies. Anyways:

a. Yes there is scum but just because you say it's a "better probability" isn't accurate. Assuming 1-2 scum in the neighbor group in the pool of 6, there would be 2-4 outside the pool which if this was a full pool: 2-4/22 players. This is assuming 1 scum team, average number of scum in a large theme. Technically it's easier to find scum in 1/3 chance (under the condition of there is 2 scum in the neighbours) then 2/11 (in a pool of non neighbours).

It's probably not exactly like that but I believe these are the chances if you shoot in the dark.

b. We still need to deal with the neighbours. Whether now, or later, ignoring potential scum is bad. We should multi attack/pressure so we catch them. That involves some time dealing with the neighbours.

c. Either way, both A and B which you are worried about in tunneling into your group is solved by scum hunting normally. Your fussiness is odd since there are far stronger cases on Substrike (neighbour) without the neighbour argument.

d. As well how can you judge which scum is more dangerous then the other? Especially since there is a high chance of fake claims. Why should we believe that a neighbour scum is actually a sleeper role. That seems odd that you can judge scum's role power based on what group they belong in, rather then simply attacking players since they are scum. All scum, regardless of what role needs to die. We judge scum roles when the situation arises (i.e. multi factions where we leash one person to be our night vig. This has been done with SKs many a time, or in Jungle Mafia the Werewolf helped the town take down the mafia group and got lynched) but not when we're hunting for them

[DTMaster]

1. Kdub: ? Just ? since I'm waiting for your case.

2. Chrono: Supersaint usually kills the person who lynches them. Thus Fate/Jalboc/that group shot someone. Nikanor claimed the Untrod kill. The only question arises from the fact that:

a. Did Fate-scum group failed their kill? Therefore where did the 3rd kill come from that took out Fate/Jalboc.
b. Did Fate-scum group get their group kill redirected back on them.

3. Chrono, I already gave a theory supported with meta evidence that Twinrova role might still exist (reference CEBM with the bakus).

[DTMaster]

I should clarify: Superstaint kills based on hammer. It doesn't activate on kills.

[DTMaster]

Huh where did the shift go

Mod is the VC correct?

[DTMaster]

The ability Rolling Attack - At any point during any day, you may target a current wagon. You will roll into a ball and charge everyone on that wagon, removing their vote for the day and blocking all of their actions until the start of the following day.

This means: what exactly? I don't count any missing votes other then LL's note that there is a double voter in play. Which means it hit an invisible voter?

[DTMaster]

1. Is it possible that the shift went to Nameloc? Considering that his votes aren't removable based on his role (what Fluffy claimed).

2. Also Aikage's vote counts in the no voter status. It's possible that you hit no vote (which would be ???????) we need more people to vote to see where it landed. Otherwise this analysis is shot.

Beefster clarify: were you sucessful?

[DTMaster]

It is possible that the 2nd mystery vote is obscuring things. If we shift the votes around it might work as well. This requires an active mod and player list though.

[DTMaster]

nameloc1986 (3): "Fluffy", "Bridget", A Flying Pot
Substrike22 (2): ABR, Hinduragi
Blooderection (1): Le Cupcake
Dekes (1): DTMaster
Exilon (1): Lady Lambdadelta
Lady Lambdadelta (1): Blooderection
Mothrax (1): Nikanor

The above is the accurate vote count before Beefster announced his roll out attack. Therefore one of these wagons should have - votes. But it doesn't.

[DTMaster]

Sorry guys I had a midterm, 2 quizzes and an Essay. My resposnes will come soon but while I was reading I had to post this:

1. Rayfrost.

Stop being an idiot for a moment in regards to the shift

. If there was no Shift that means Beefster or Lady LL was lying because when Beefster targeted LL

He did not die

. Also you are not Beefster. He could have missed.

You are putting a massive loop hole between Exlion/LL/Beefster if there was no shift.

It means that we have two players that should have died but didn't

. The 3rd rollout occured after the selfvotes did not reveal anything and showed no vote loss.

This analysis should continue since we know there is a shift already. However, that doesn't mean we stop scum hunting while Beefster analyzes the shift. (I'll post mine when I get to it). There is a distrubing trend in people's posting style recently where a large number of people

are not multi tasking scumhunting and shift analysis via votes

. "points to Substrike as an example".

2. Exlion, considering that you claimed

day cop and you now have a frog that is acting like a snitch reads as super pro-town

. It confirms your day-action, therefore AWESOMESAUCE. Frog-snitch person is very pro-town because there would be no scum motivation to

make your actions confirmable publically

.

[DTMaster]

1. To everyone complaining about the shift analysis: The shift though is vital to figure out unlike the flavour debate. This affects all day roles. Role information is vital as scum hunting is. But I haven't given up on actual scum hunting. People who call out that the shift analysis is distracting without actually doing anything (you lead by example people) should shoot themselves in the foot for saying those things.

People who complain about the shift and don't scum hunt while the analysis read as scum trying to stall rather then town making use of the day. I'm tired of reading complaints. (I'm going to analyze you people so rawr.)

@Mothrax
Here

You ignored my counter to your argument from earlier in your post. Here it is.

@Moth
I missed your post lolz. Oopsies. Anyways:

a. Yes there is scum but just because you say it's a "better probability" isn't accurate. Assuming 1-2 scum in the neighbor group in the pool of 6, there would be 2-4 outside the pool which if this was a full pool: 2-4/22 players. This is assuming 1 scum team, average number of scum in a large theme. Technically it's easier to find scum in 1/3 chance (under the condition of there is 2 scum in the neighbours) then 2/11 (in a pool of non neighbours).

It's probably not exactly like that but I believe these are the chances if you shoot in the dark.

b. We still need to deal with the neighbours. Whether now, or later, ignoring potential scum is bad. We should multi attack/pressure so we catch them. That involves some time dealing with the neighbours.

c. Either way, both A and B which you are worried about in tunneling into your group is solved by scum hunting normally. Your fussiness is odd since there are far stronger cases on Substrike (neighbour) without the neighbour argument.

d. As well how can you judge which scum is more dangerous then the other? Especially since there is a high chance of fake claims. Why should we believe that a neighbour scum is actually a sleeper role. That seems odd that you can judge scum's role power based on what group they belong in, rather then simply attacking players since they are scum. All scum, regardless of what role needs to die. We judge scum roles when the situation arises (i.e. multi factions where we leash one person to be our night vig. This has been done with SKs many a time, or in Jungle Mafia the Werewolf helped the town take down the mafia group and got lynched) but not when we're hunting for them

You attack Nikanor for his neighbourhood argument: except

you don't address how one person determines the pro-town neighbour to the fake scum player

, except to say that I was wrong to attack you since you assumed there is a large block of "protown" players here and Nikanor's absoluteness is wrong. You don't explain why (I did since the element of PRs come to play, hence why your comment of "bigger scum" still reads as a slip in the mindset and my argument that you're juding people based on PR levels here, rather then scumminess. Hence scum mindset)

The mindset that you assume the towniness, and that you don't attack them outside does not mean you tunnel within the group. You scum hunt multiple people, you don't stop. Nor do you ignore people who could be scum. You're missing the main point of Chrono/Substrike that Nikanor is pointing out. By analyzing why they are attacking X person you are using normal scum hunting to read motives behind it. Thus you can determine if they are town/scum based on their reasoning. That element remains, but the motives for why X wants Y dead is left to be interpeted.

Thus when you complain about Nikanor's argument and tunnel on him brings suspicion on you because it reads as a defensive red flag.

There's a lot of assumptions you're making, none of which can be proven true unless you are scum.

If you consider what the shift analysis does:

It brings credit to Exlion's claim which normally would have devolved into an LL vs Exlion fight due to conflicting role claims. Now both scenerios of PGO LL and Day cop Exlion is proven to be possible.

2. ABR: I don't understand what claiming targets would do in scum hunting. The targets could be both town/scum players (hence my original analysis that I asked the sages to think about). It's more balanced to have a mix link that hurts town in exchange for powers with a dash of target scum with increasing town powers.

3. Rayfrost: If you consider that Fate/JaLBoC flipped two RBing type roles, they had a high disabling team (at least between the two players themselves) which is super powerful in night actions. (comment about PRs)

4. Deke's: the rolling attack was claimed by Beefster when he full claimed. Do an Iso search and you'll find it.

5.Ythan: There is a cavat though in regards to assuming Chess town vs scum. It's called risk management. In a game, I believe one of the strongest role in the game is the Vanillia townie because the person relies on scumhunting over role abilities. Thus this person is the most useful player because there is more motivation to keep up in cases/etc, and can easily over power any scum PR team. In a pure statistical gain, it's more benifical to town that scum hunt to have Chess use his ability over lynching him outright.

6. Chrono I would like you to address my comment about Substrike to confirm he is scumhunting both in QT that I don't see out here.

7. Rayfrost: Um.. I want to answer for Dekes because it reads as you're missing a line or something but I'll let him answer. But your argument is poor since why aren't you attacking me for attacking multiple people? So far I called out Moth/Dekes/Substrike/etc.

Edit: Nevermind: Dekes provided a poor answer since he's not taking a strong enough scum-hunting stance on Jmj. When I read it originally I read it as: Jmj reads as scum and Dekes agreed with chess. Now that Dekes judges that Jmj isn't the correct lynch atm, this reads as poor scum hunting. Using the neighbour hood excuse is poor since you lead by example and fix the problem by doing something that takes people away from it. Hence I didn't originally read it as providing chess a case, (even though Dekes stated it), but Dekes scumhunting on his own. The intent was there, the value of one player over another in terms of scumhunting throws it off.

8. Rayfrost: I'm doing something about it. It's called both shift vote and scumhunting. Isn't that enough for you or do I need to be abrasive and tell you that we can still scum hunt without a vote. I don't see why we can't wait for Beefster's analysis (since this impacts Exlion's play directly) and scum hunt people at the same time. There are people actively trying to do something right now. Also speaking of which

9.

Aikage please vote. Your vote appears to count in the not-voting section.

If you are using your non-voting status to not vote anyone, you're being ridiclious here.

I'm off to class so Dekes my post on you (among other people) will be later today.

[DTMaster]

DUDE PEOPLE

MISS. I get to try again!

Maybe there

is

no shift.

Rolling Attack: Lady Lambdadelta's Wagon

Nope. Never mind that.

There is, in fact, a shift. Good to know.

Are people RETARDED AND DON'T READ. BEEFSTER TARGETED THE CLAIMED PGO AND DID NOT DIE. IF YOU GO BACK TO MY ORIGINAL POST

nameloc1986 (3): "Fluffy", "Bridget", A Flying Pot
Substrike22 (2): ABR, Hinduragi
Blooderection (1): Le Cupcake
Dekes (1): DTMaster
Exilon (1): Lady Lambdadelta
Lady Lambdadelta (1): Blooderection
Mothrax (1): Nikanor

The above is the accurate vote count before Beefster announced his roll out attack. Therefore one of these wagons should have - votes. But it doesn't.

BUT BLOODERECTION DID NOT LOSE HIS VOTE. STOP BEING RETARDED PEOPLE.

[DTMaster]

If there was no shift and Beefster's power doesn't count towards PGO requirements even, BE HAS HIS VOTE. STOP THIS NONSENSE PEOPLE AND START USING YOUR BRAIN.

[DTMaster]

Sorry I got a prod. Will post sometime Tuesday complete with answers. Had to finish some labwork. :S\

[DTMaster]

Oh I'm going to catch up now with DTManalysis. Also I left unanswered questions to Dekes/Mothrax (I believe, I'll review in my self notes). Day off tomorrow = time to mafias now.

[DTMaster]

1. Ythan this post. Yes I responded to the point you made about my view on Chess' role and information gained from his lynch versus letting him activate his ability. I apologize though since I trailed off but tl:dr version is: Letting Chess use his role is more beneficial to town in terms of risk management and information.

This means that Chess must use his ability at the latest 2 cycles before the predictable lylo situation to assess how valid his claim his due to the suicide clause in his role. This gives us time to lynch him if he is lying, etc, etc you know the rest

. If we do not trust Chess we direct Chess. If Chess doesn't do as directed and is alive, we caught the scum-chess he is.

2. This post here by Ythan. If Exlion is telling the truth he said specifically that this frog is a snitch (public displays seen here in this quote)

What is up with me having an EyeballFrog staring at me? My PM said it might snitch at me publically if I tried to do something today. It also said I could choose to kill it during the day phase instead of invesrtigating someone. That is obv not happening, but could this be related to the Cuccoos from D1?

If you consider what the

frog does based on Exlion's claim the action is very pro-town. There is no scum-reason to publicly have Exlion's result shown in a public form after his cop-claim. The action reads as pro-town.

It's called inferring the intentions on the person's actions. At face value this frog = good. If the frog was something to kill Exlion, then it's an anti-town action and the interpretation is anti-town.

Since when is inferring what is claimed off to you?

Also Exlion

Use your brain. Why would scum want to know who you'd target? If you are the town cop scum wants you dead, not alive to confirm your targets via "snitching". Only TOWN PLAYERS WOULD WANT TO KNOW YOUR TARGET LIKE A BACKUP COP

. Brain sez: this is what happening.

I seriously challenge anyone to find the scum motivation in a "snitching frog" on the day cop. Why would scum

confirm the day-cop with a snitching frog that records public actions

. This was outlined in Exlion's frog claim, and I don't see it.

3. Flavour soft claim is null. I thought we been over this is the history of Dram and fake claims. Subsequent discussion is noisy.

4. I find Chess' stance on Gandalf disturbing on many levels. I'm reviewing over page 6-8 on his iso reads and See the following changes on Chess' view on Gandalf Hydra

Ok well this will probably be my last content post, based on current progression.

I'm a slow starter in games, especially online. I take awhile to get reads, and until I do I am usually just noise (see Lost S1 if you want). That doesn't mean I am a VI - in fact I chose scum on D1 and he got vigged n1 as a result, and I found scum on D2 as well, though failtown lynched the Beloved Princess's guard.

For me, mafia is a game of deceit and cunning, where you have to analyze arguments to figure out who is only faking suspects because they actually already know who the scum are, and how pairs of players interact.

That's mafia for me. When I end up playing with people like Ythan who turn it into a constant series of ad hominum attacks, it ceases to be enjoyable. And yes, I do sink to that level, but that doesn't mean that's the only level I can play at.

Scummy vibes from all the people on this list. IMO most of the scum will be here.
Chronopie
Dekes
Gandalf
jmj3000
Untod
mothrax

I'd explain, but I'd just get buried under piles of attacks from anyone I just FoSed, along with other random people for OMGUSing everyone who is voting for me. This is not true at all. Some of the votes on me I read as town/can't read at all because posting in ALLCAPS NOCONTENT is not my specialty.

So, there's my FOSes. Peace.
I will respond to civil inquiries.

Gandalf is schizo

^Gandalf is a Hydra. With problems between the heads obv.

I know, and it's hilarious.

Still D1?


lulz

QFT
By the way, I BEG Chess not to suicide tonight. Like, please don't. BTW, what if I told you guys I could make it to where I was the only one vanillarized? Should I? I would say I'm a reasonably important PR, BTW.

haha one head wants a policy lynch on me, the other wants me to not sui tonite.

No worries, I'm not suiing.

I will join the GIS wagon, but if GIS flips town, Dekes is confscum.
Read his post about joining the GIS wagon if you don't believe me. (Also read a few of his other posts, he's scum skirting under the radar).

Unvote

Vote: GIS

I don't mind the transition because it does read like Chess is feeling the VI influence after the fact. It's consistence with his stance that he felt that there was scummier people. But Chess just lied that he was fully opposed since he did call Gandalf scummy earlier on and he herpa derped onto the wagon. This is pretty bad in reflection of Chess' posts on page 96. I believe I was one of few people who raised concerns over this (abet late in terms of role but I raised meta concerns over Shotty's play) in regards to Gandalf. It's after the fact, I wouldn't have cried if he was vig killed (Ihmo I believe that I raised concerns on Beefster over this)

This quote:

How is that role supposed to be pro-town? I highly doubt there would ever be 3 adjacent scum players. (It's highly unlikely) To me it seems like it would end up doing more harm than good because it will most likely be targeting 3 town, possibly 1 scum, probably not any more than that. It's basically a mass (fail) roleblocker.

I found this post odd now. I read GIS' role and the above argument sounds like:

This role has anti-town, as most pro-town roles have anti-town elements (i.e. town RB, town doc, CPR doc, cops that are not sane, jailkeepers, vigs, etc) rather then this claim sucks and it's scummy. The purpose is to self direct kills to his bullet proofness (which is the second one claimed in this game lols). It can also direct actions. It doesn't stop cop investigations, nor role blocks, nor whatever.

This role actually makes more sense as a role that a townie could epiclly use to save the town or hurt the town (hence double edge sword). Much like Chess' claim. I don't see why this role = scummy when your arguments show how it fits in the town really well as a role that could do good or bad things depending on how you use it.

Here validates my original point on Beefster with a confirmed town flip on GIS based on his role argument alone. Selfnote reread Beefster.

Break time. Fewd!

[DTMaster]

1. Bunny I find this odd. Here in terms of what you are saying. I've shown that I've been drumming up questions AND participating in the shift (by starting it and bringining up the fact that there was one noted yesterday and stopping the LL/Exlion debate. Why can't you do both?

2. Exlion makes a good point about Boss-Cop. The only useful results should be guilities (since it's likely that he's sane based on the -13 shift Nikanor pointed out earlier)

3. Beefster's post here reads somewhat scummy for one reason alone.

a. Double voting status is not a scummy argument. This is role speculation either on BE or another person that could cause an extra vote. Therefore this argument reminds me of the role argument that Beefster used on GIS

where he's arguing that the role is a valid argument for one's scumminess, but it's not. It's just a role and those are independent of alignment at face value

b. I'd like examples of Fence sitting plz. Your lack of motivation to put effort in your own case is hurting the case in itself. The vote on LL is a valid point though, but the noise of point a = bad. It gives me mixed signals.

4. Rayfrost had a brain fart. I believe page 97 he said that the shift was confirmed to be changing per day. Page 98 = -10 on Day 1. This is weird.

5. Deke's point on Substrike is weird. I don't like the more information stance (but I've seen VIs use it in Brr mafia which made me a day 1 lynch just because a VI townie decided that more information was better then scummy read >>;;). I'd expect Deke to say that he finds Substrike the scummiest, not the most useful in terms of information. This bugs me.

6. Chrono: The shift is a variable amount. This was proven today since it differs from yesterday. Using knowledge of Ozmodar as our base hypothesis is still more useful then saying: Screw day action analysis

7. I just realized something: The frog is likely a day action therefore my original points are null unless X person knows what the shift is/is unaffected by the shift. :S. They were aiming elsewhere, the premise that they were aiming Exlion is slightly flawed. This is my paranoia getting to me now.

Stopping again. Whew.

[DTMaster]

1. Oh the mods removed the not voting status. I remember since I asked Aikage to vote since he appeared in the not-voting status as a valid vote.

2. Bunnylover

read my theory on Twinrova where I linked to a game where Dramonic made a person become a revivable SK that is triggered by the death of the original SK player slot. Therefore this SK took 2 player slots rather then 1 to kill. This was the Dark Baku role in CEBM. I believe the same mechanic based on experience with Dram-roles may apply here.

This fits with my Chrono-town read better then your ideas.

If Fate/JaLboC were revivable: they wouldn't have a true flip shown or they would revive immediately since if they came back now they are dead via instant lynch of mod-confirmed scum. If it's scum who can revive them then we wouldn't have TRUE FLIPS SHOWING UP RIGHT NOW and they would adopt a graveyard mechanic to stop the brokenness of that (via instant lynch of their revival).

Your first theory is more plausable. It's a good bastardly way to say: Hey your target isn't even in the game therefore we made a modified vanillia town role of Chronopie. Therefore it's possible that the role doesn't exist and Chronopie is doomed to be powerless all game. Your second one is dumb simply because we wouldn't have role/alignment flips involved to balance out reviving scum.

3. The inference of multiple scum comes from the fact that Dram named a faction "Boss Scum" within Exlion's cop role posted. You don't give a faction a specific name like that unless you're trying to maintain a distinction between multiple faction. Had the wording been just bosses or just scum it would imply singular. But I'd also be aware that in a game this large multiple scum is common therefore I wouldn't leave it out as an impossibility.

[DTMaster]

Sorry guys I'll finish my post in a little bit. Mulling over some thoughts/edits while I post. I just read this and um. Substrike. The shift is a confirmed phenomenon. We also confirmed that it's most likely a -13 shift and Exlion investigated Zwet miller because it matches the -13 shift that Kai did when he knocked out the wagon on Reckamonic, which made Zwet lose his vote yesterday. Therefore Exlion did not get a guilty on a mason, he confirmed his sanity yesterday on Zwet when he targeted LL.

[DTMaster]

I'm going to pull all of these into areas per player since I'm going to wall this final catchup. Sorry about the read but I've been busy and now have time.

General

1. Ok guys. Page 99 is reading like the Cupcake debate all over again.

Stop analyzing flavour claims before people claimed them and start scum hunting now.

. Saying X claim is scum because they are a boss/miniboss/etc doesn't mean anything because:

a. Fake claims
b. Alignments are independent of roles and we should stick to that mentality.

In KINGDOM OF LOATHING MAFIA the GUILD LEADERS THAT ARE TOWN HEROS IN THE FLAVOUR WERE SCUM.

. I'm going to pound it into all your thick heads. Stop this nonsense because speculating on who's scum based on flavour before the claims is retarded. It's broken by fake claiming. We don't confirm it until after we lynch/kill them and

knowing that your flavour analysis is correct after scum is dead is counter productive

.

Since people are insisting on this

analyze flavour once people claim. Don't feed scum flavour knowledge before claiming.

. At this point they don't even need the LoZ OoT wiki article since half the player list is spouting out flavour talk rather then playing Mafiascum.

/Rant

Aside: Finally Aikage is a effing voice of reason with the flavour analysis. This bothers me because typos + lack of participation + cases without backing them up with force = poor posts. Typos = annoying. The lack of participation and presenting attacks without sticking to his guns = scummy.

But Aikage is consistent. I'm going to reread his mess again because at the moment the VI status (i.e. Viggage of him) seems off to my gut.

Vezok

1. Lol wut. Did you just claim scum with Fate? This is some serious brain fart action here asking someone to revive dead scum. I'd shoot you for that post alone. If you go: "Ooohhh fate was scum oopz" I'd lower you to investigative level.

2. Lolololol ok if I had to guess Vezok is the vessel that would turn into Twinrova (or is that role). Lolololololo this post says it all The motives fit and makes sense.

3. Lolololol. Omg did Vezok not read the flips at all? How JaLBoC was in the same faction as him? Terrible (and a bad case of Fatebuddyism).

mothrax

1.Loolololol. Ok this post is super bad Moth. Lynch this mofo he's scummy. He just said quote:

which is that just because a person has not outright attacked another player does not mean they are not scumhunting/ have a scum read on one of these people.

This is a scum mindset.

Townies would scum hunt their scum reads regardless of neighbourhood status.

. I agree with one thing about Nikanor: If a neighbour is town, he is likely to publically show his suspicions throughout the game. This includes scumhunting in the neighbourhood (even if this is a minor read he'd scum hunt multiple people at once). Townies

do not, absolutely do not withhold scum-reads and do nothing about it

. They attack, make use of the thread, and if they have a role make use of that.

It's a scum mindset to retain "scum reads" because it's the easiest to follow the crowd willy nilly. Its the town mindset to take charge and scumhunt. What you expressed is something only scum would have incentive to do.

The key difference between Nikanor's and my points are:
a. A person in the neighborhood who's scum is still favorable to lynch the neighbors (i.e. attack them) since they are hidden power roles.
b. A person in the neighborhood who is town that finds everyone else town = plausible.

The key similarity that I stress that both our ideas meet is:
a. The answer lies in the person's motives, which is why Nikanor wanted a read off Chrono/Substrike's scum list. It's the why that's important, not who.

2. Also answer these points Mothrax: I'll condense them from this quote:

a. Yes there is scum but just because you say it's a "better probability" isn't accurate. Assuming 1-2 scum in the neighbor group in the pool of 6, there would be 2-4 outside the pool which if this was a full pool: 2-4/22 players. This is assuming 1 scum team, average number of scum in a large theme. Technically it's easier to find scum in 1/3 chance (under the condition of there is 2 scum in the neighbours) then 2/11 (in a pool of non neighbours).

It's probably not exactly like that but I believe these are the chances if you shoot in the dark.

b. We still need to deal with the neighbours. Whether now, or later, ignoring potential scum is bad. We should multi attack/pressure so we catch them. That involves some time dealing with the neighbours.

c. Either way, both A and B which you are worried about in tunneling into your group is solved by scum hunting normally. Your fussiness is odd since there are far stronger cases on Substrike (neighbour) without the neighbour argument.

d. As well how can you judge which scum is more dangerous then the other? Especially since there is a high chance of fake claims. Why should we believe that a neighbour scum is actually a sleeper role. That seems odd that you can judge scum's role power based on what group they belong in, rather then simply attacking players since they are scum. All scum, regardless of what role needs to die. We judge scum roles when the situation arises (i.e. multi factions where we leash one person to be our night vig. This has been done with SKs many a time, or in Jungle Mafia the Werewolf helped the town take down the mafia group and got lynched) but not when we're hunting for them

to

a. It's not a better probability to address outside the neighborhood. Thus you are wrong.
b. The issue still stands within the neighborhood regardless of numbers pointed in a. Why should we ignore this?
c. Why can't we do both and scumhunt within and outside the group? I've done both when I attacked Substrike, defended Chrono, and attacked people outside of the two claimed neighbours (i.e. you, Dekes, Chess, Nikanor, etc)
d. You stated that your point about neighbor scum = not as dangerous due to the numbers. Answer a,b which addresses your counter (since this is a redundant question that was answered by you)

Chess Stuff

1. Guys the suicide clause means we let him vanilla before lylo (preferably 2 cycles before at the latest). Killing/lynching Chess defeats the purpose of that plan. Wtf people. What happened to testing his role in a super verifiable way that was claimed in game. Vigs shoot elsewhere where it's useful. Chess is verifiable in means that don't require cops/vigs/lynching at this stage. If he is determined to be scum we shoot/lynch the man after VERIFYING HIM.

Rayfrost

1. Dude. You got retardly more scummier just by this statement here. It reads as a massive slip. Remember day 1 when Cupcake and I volunteered to be vanilizing targets

if you don't trust Chess have him vanillize us

. Don't shoot/kill the man when HE HAS A FUCKING SUICIDE CLAUSE IN HIS ROLE. SUICIDE CLAUSE MEANS YOU CAN GET 3 TOWN DIRECTED FLIPS IF WE INCLUDE A VIG IN THE ASSUMPTIONS, 2 IF YOU DON'T. YOU SIR DESERVE TO BE INVESTIGATED.

The subtext of self preservation is noted.

2. Ohmai you have a brain again! You are very schizo seen here in this post

RAY FROST

WHY ARE YOU FLIP FLOPPING OVER CHESS HERE EVIDENT BY POINTS 1 and 2 CONTRASTING THE GENERAL MOOD THAT BEEFSTER's KILL CHESS STANCE SEEN IN THE POSTS PRECEDING IN 1 to follow up WITH THE CORRECT STANCE FOUND IN 2

. Why the sudden change?

Masons

1.LL: Speculating on Aikage role =/= advancement to finding scum. You're pulling things from thin air at this point. Stop. Like right now. Stop typing. Think about your theories. Ask yourself this: Is this idea useful in anyway? Because even if any of your voteless/vote condition theories are true the role =/= alignment. You stated this yourself later on with BE double voting speculation.

Save yourself some trouble and let the man claim when it's his time to claim.

Selfnotes

1. Reread Aikage again.

Break time.

[DTMaster]

It comes from the fact you want Chess vigged without using his Vanillizing powers. Reads as scum jumping onto the chess wagon. Remember my post about risk management in dealing with Chess in both town/scum scenerios? It reads as you-scum eliminating Chess-town to eliminate the risk of Town-chess scenarios.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: Wanted. Past tense now.

[DTMaster]

If people are dense, letting Chess prove if he's town would simply be magical. Chess-town = epic sauce and he could be shotty for all I care. Hence I'm betting on Chess' suicide to be a key piece later on in scumanalysis. People with brains know why.

[DTMaster]

You choose when. It doesn't have to be tonight since there is time. Based on an 8 scum number system and if we mislynch everyday till the end (Which I hope not) lylo is at 5:4 (Total = 9) We want to have a person threshold per night/day cycle (based on night 1) so 8:4, 12:4 at 16 people. Give us 17 people in case you do die (there would be 4 deaths equalizing to the 8:4 if Chess is town, 9:4 if he is scum, giving us a cycle to lynch him). So when we get to 17 people its a requirement.

Don't announce when you are going to in thread since this will prevent scum knowing when to redirect you in town-Chess scenerio.

[DTMaster]

There was 2 yellow coloured flips

. Didn't that bother you at all?

[DTMaster]

K finishing off the catchup. I'll feel like I'm missing a few points so do point it out if I missed something. I have to reread later to see who I missed and which cases got lost in my catchup.

1. The frog action is confirmed. Since it was bothering me I double checked the timing.

This is when the vote count where we confirmed the new number in the shift (I believe -10/+15 correct me if I am wrong). What bothers me is that this "frog action" was completed before the VC analysis (so even if frog person did his own research into the shift before the town), I have the following questions:

How did the frog person determine the shift before Beefster's public activity?

, or

Did the frog person even intend to target Exlion?

There are some caveats here and when claims arise I want these questions asked. I'm putting this down, but I do not want the frog person to claim right now.

I am however refuting my original analysis of the frog action simply because: he couldn't know what the shift was therefore as a town player could not intend to confirm Exlion.

2. Bunnylove: Here is the original post with like to my theory referencing the Dark/Light Baku mechanic.

Chronopie I think the Twinrova role may still be in the game. in CEBM Reck lived in two player slots as the dark Baku. Even though he died The light Baku didn't win because he needed to kill the slot that was the new vassal.

Guys Twinrova might come back (ie ressurection mechanic like the Baku in CEBM) I would find it odd that chrono would claim a contradiction as scum.

Link to the game is here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=14592
If you are too lazy to go to the end here are the important roles where I draw parallels between Chrono's situation and the Light Baku/Dark Baku

Please, hold on a little longer...

Welcome to Cross Edge Bastard Hell,

InhimshallIbe

. You are

Miko Aiba, Light Baku

. You wish to preserve the worlds in their respective dimensions and let life follow its course, and for that it is primordial that you defeat the Dark Baku.

Race:

Baku

Faction:

Salvation

You are a

Baku Lyncher

. You have the following special abilities:

Passive Abilities:

Soulless

- Being a Baku, you do not possess a soul per se. As such, if you are ever faced with a situation that would put you in the "defeated", you are destroyed instead.

Mind Altered Guardians

- You know Troy (Kairyuu) and York (Fate) are Order-Aligned Humans. They do not know each other, but you are confirmed as "Miko Aiba, Order-Aligned Human" to them.

Active Abilities:

Soul Release

- Each day Phase, you may break the binds between a soul (defeated players or Soul race players) and this world. Doing so will return a player to his own world (remove them from the game). Each successful Soul Release grants you one Judgement counter.

Ultimate:

Ultimate: Arcane Sakura Dance (Active)

- By using 2 Judgement counter, you may perform a single strongman kill that cannot be blocked, redirected, protected against or otherwise altered.

Cost:

- None.

Please remember that you can use only one active ability per day.

Win Condition (Salvation):

You win when the Dark Baku is gone and you are responsible for it (hammering or ASDing).

Please confirm via return PM.

The topic is here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 92&start=0

At this point you get it, but if Vivi was alive when The Dark Baku died, Miko had to kill Vivi too in order to win in the game. She came close to being able to win on Night 2, but Gandalf prevented that.
Also, I don't understand how Inhim managed to pass off as a human for so long after I flipped human. Seriously...

The light Baku was responsible for the original kill on Reck Dark Baku N2. The explanation why the Light Baku didn't win even though she was directly responsible for the the kill is shown above. Read the Vessel role below.

Thrive... thrive and consume...

Welcome to Cross Edge Bastard Hell,

xRECKONERx

. You are

The Dark Baku

. You wish to absorb all worlds into your own and consume the souls of all beings. You've absorbed a few souls and powered up.

Race:

Baku

Faction:

Destruction

You are an

Baku Evolving Serial Killer

. You have the following special abilities:

Passive Abilities:

Soulless

- Being a Baku, you do not possess a soul per se. As such, if you are ever faced with a situation that would put you in the "defeated", you are destroyed instead.

Mind Altered Guardian

- You know Vivi (Faraday) is an Order-Aligned Soul.

Vessel

- You are in a neighborhood with Vivi (Faraday).

Active Abilities:

Soul Absorb

- Each day Phase, you may engulf a soul (defeated players or Soul race players). Doing so will destroy the player and may grant you additional abilities.

Avis Fear

- Each night Phase, you may utterly destroy a player, killing them AND absorbing their soul in the process. Note that even though it's "utterly destroy", it doesn't bust protections

Ultimate:

Ultimate: Vessel Escape (Passive)

- Upon death you will become one with Vivi. After 4 phases in such a state you will resurrect as a different entity.

Cost:

- None

Please remember that you can use only one active ability per day.

Vessel:

Win Condition (Destruction):

You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm via return PM.

The topic is here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 92&start=0

Power gained were a kill after 2 absorbed, doublevote after 4 (explaining the last votecount) and bulletproof at 6. Also the Ultimate would make him possess Vivi after 4 phases, which explain to those corpses why Reck never arrived in the graveyard.
Also by now, you guys know Reck = Stemata.
I really loved this role, makes me sad it got caught on a pseudo-technicality (but then again, that's exactly what I expected to happen, that or a SK victory)

This was the SK. Read below for the full information.

I-I'm sorry...

Welcome to Cross Edge Bastard Hell,

Faraday

. You are

Vivi, Empyreal Vessel

. You are the eldest kid and the most shy of the trio. You are also the only one capable of communicating with the Empyreal One.

Race:

Soul

Faction:

Order

You are a

Soul Bodyguard Neighbor

. You have the following special abilities:

Passive Abilities:

Pure Soul

- Being born from this world, you do not possess a real body. As such, actions that would only affected defeated players will work on you even while you are alive.

Family Affairs

- You are in a neighborhood with Mimi (Kise) and Cece (Benmage).

Confidante

- You are in a neighborhood with Judas (Chronopie).

Vessel

- You are in a neighborhood with the Empyreal One (xRECKONERx).

Active Abilities:

Sacrifice

- Each night, you may protect someone from harm. If they would be killed/destroyed, you will be destroyed instead.

Ultimate:

Ultimate: ??? (Passive)

- Your ultimate will trigger if you die while protecting one of your siblings.

Cost:

Your death is irremediable.

Please remember that you can use only one active ability per day.

Family Affairs:
Confidante:
Vessel:

Win Condition (Order):

You win when all threats have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm via return PM.

The topic is here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 92&start=0

Ultimate: Desillusion - Both Judas and Empyreal One will be revealed to Mimi and Cece for who the really are.

A fairly bland bodyguard, if not for the 4 neighbours, the ultimate telling him to protect his family and his getting possessed by the end of the game. I was really happy when he got resurrected by Gandalf, because his being death was really crippling to the Dark Baku.

The vessel was a town role that got replaced by Reck's Alt. Both Stemata and Reck were the same character/player/had the same slot. Therefore when Reck died the second night he could still win by possessing/resurrecting inside Faraday's player slot with a force replace.

3. SUBSTRIKE. WHY THE EFF HAVEN'T YOU CONTRIBUTED TO THE NEIGHBOUR QT. YOU ADMITTED TO A SUPREMELY ANTI-TOWN ACTION. WHEN YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE PUBLICALLY ATTACKING NEIGHBOURS in QT OR THREAD to get reads off people I EXPECTED YOU TO TAKE ON LEADERSHIP IN THE THREAD or QT. / Rage

4. Substrike: You do realize the irony of the statement:

"You're lynching me because I haven't been around alot" go and "Lynch Dekes, or Aikage who do the same thing". Why me over them? Why you over them?

I've been pursuing a Dekes case for a bit (which I think got lost in my catchup post so I'm going to revisit it later). I've done reads on Aikage. So stop this BS and start showing me why you shouldn't be a lynch. Right now in your post you just equated yourself to Dekes/Aikage whom you said are very scummy players according to your criteria. Thus you are saying you're scummy, but don't lynch you. The whining is stupid. Your defense is full of holes. Take your own advice and do something about it.

5. BL: The combination idea is a bit too public (but works in such a way that it reads as a pro-town thing) since it publically reduces the player count by 1 for no reason. It can be coordinated with a hydra supplied by the Mods, and go from there. But based on what Chrono's PM states and my Baku theory, it makes more sense to have Twinrova being incorperated a more subtle mechanic.

6. Kdub: The idea is "scum in neighbourhood" is important. Not the idea that what scum is. Heck there could be "boss scum"/"notbossscum" neighbor pair (I'd assume if there was two factions, 2 infiltrates is the magic number just due to mirroring). I don't see how speculating on this helps in any way. Now if you were adressing the players and calling them scum, that's more important. But according to Chrono few of the neighbours are doing so.

7. Nikanor: Scum targetting Exlion-town makes no sense. Scum-targeting Exlion-scum makes sense. But the latter theory is suppppper streching it. I think there is another possibility but I'll save that till the person claims. It makes more sense to think the Frog and Exlion target might not be that connected as we think (as addressed by the shifting).

If I was the frog person, and based on what the frog does with Exlion's claim: I'd still be able to get information using it before the shift was determined. Since the analysis was dragging on for a while, my 3rd idea makes more sense. I have a bunch of questions for the person if he lives to the claim state/if I live to the claim state.

Break time. I realize that my Dekes vote is doing nothing. I'm planning to revisit this case ASAP because I feel something is there. Also Nikanor's analysis on Kdub (well point) is triggering some flags on Kdub. I need to reread him as well since I remember getting a vibe of "Active lurking". It's in my notes.

Unvote, Vote Mothrax

My second wall leads me here. I'm open to substrike to end the day, but I want to get all my notes down before night hits.

[DTMaster]

Sorry posting soon. But to answer the night shift question read the following posts by Nikanor.

I may have had something to do with UT's death.
@Chronopie & Substrike: Do you suspect any of your neighbors? If so, who are they? Don't worry about revealing roles; Neighbor Sleeper is ridiculously weak so you're not giving anything away.

That said, unless you think that Kairyuu was lying about a shift (and I don't see any reason for why he would), I think there is a Day Ozmodiar. There are four day actions confirmed or claimed (cucco daykill, cucco voteblock, Kai's rollout, Exilon's inspection), so I don't see why there wouldn't be an ozmodiar that only works in the day. There is most likely no ozmodiar that works during the night, at least.

If you believe in the masons,

night had no shift last night.

.

I discussed this with Nikanor at the start of the day due to conflicting soft claims to night actions.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: conflicting soft claims of night actions with shift. Nikanor says it wasn't shifted last night since UT's death was claimed by Nikanor.

[DTMaster]

1. Ythan: I believe that if someone is a boss-miller, it stands to say that boss = scum. Also we have a boss-cop claim that looks for boss-scum.

2. Nameloc: This question is scummy. What's the issue with advancing a scum case? A few people (myself included) are not voting on the main wagons, but you don't call us out on it.

The question is scummy in itself since it doesn't seem genuine in asking what AKR thinks in terms on who's scum. Rather it just wants to accelerate the wagon.

3. Beefster this post is weird. Are you calling Rayfrost scummy? When you say that Rayfrost is calling the shots, that doesn't mean anything. If Rayfrost is making good points and you agree with him and is actively scum hunting, that's a good thing. When you just say: Rayfrost is calling the shots and people are following him that's a scum thought of process.

Scum are more interested in who the town leaders are, town would go to the next level and think is this scummy

. But I don't see it. All you do is point fingers at Ray/Chess and hint at something manipulative there. If you look again I caught many instances of flip-flopping of Rayfrost. I'm keeping my eye on him since the issue dealing with Chess is strange enough for me to do so. This flop-flopping is scummy. Being a vocal person is not.

4. AKR + Ythan just became a little more pro-townie. AKR for explaining his thought process. Ythan making that distinction. As much as I disliked Ythan's flavour analysis (durhhhh), this through process is full of goodies. I feel it in the effort that AKR is putting in his case (linking jmj, and my post against Ythan).

5. Nameloc: The suicidal plan is pro-townie (even though the results are anti-town because it involves a PR playing suboptimal and him having to suicide to prove innocence rather then using his PR to find scum). It's more townie to suggest these types of plan rather then scum since you're willing to kill yourself in order for the greater townie to win (scum has less incentive to do that since they have less numbers). It's also verifiable based on your living status (like with Chess). I have a conflicted read. I'm leaning townie since you offered to off yourself. This is a stronger sign then your question.

I'd rather you use your PR as you see fit though.

6.: The question here: by nameloc. Technically, technically, if chess was scum, it would only confirm non-chessscumates. This is assuming that Chess claimed vanillizer as scum and still lives. People would claim to be vanillized and chess broke conditions of his PR that was stated.

Chess-scum would target the dangerous elements to the scum group hence the conclusion they're more likely town. But not cleared. If there are 2 scum teams, this wouldn't clear many people but I'd add townie points just because Chess targeted them. If there is 1 scum team, then well Chess cleared some townies. Or he could fake a result.

Chess-being alive after vanillizing = lots of confusion. Hence why the suicide clause verifies chess easier.

7. BL: For now I'd keep the questions for the frogger guy to claim.

8. Beefster: What's the difference between a scum sheep and a scum leader? (i.e. how do you know it's not sheeping scum in say chess versus Ray-scum leader in your case)

Break time. Fewds :3

[DTMaster]

Note to self: why did most of the people who I presented attacks to, ie. Moth and Dekes disappear right now? It's kind of hard when I have so many cases pending from responses.

[DTMaster]

Recent posts before I finish my catchup.

1. Chess I know. But you'd think about

why'd you target XXX as scum rather then the results.

. That's the more interesting question

2. Ythan, they've been largely inactive all day. Doesn't help that a large number of people are inactive. This presents lots of noise where there shouldn't be since lurker-scum blends with anti-town lurkers.

3. I want to answer for LL since I know why scum would buddy pubically. I'll let her do it but I'll add on my own meta references to why they would do it after her response. This of course means that LL's argument invalidates Chess' thoughts of SK and Scum because her stance says: Fate's flip was boss scum.

Also Ythan you know why scum would buddy you (just like other people might buddy Fate if he was town). The 3rd point in LL's case doesn't read as BE buddying Fate. It reads as BE and Fate both joining in on the same wagon.

[DTMaster]

SUBSTRIKE YOU MISSED MY QUESTION THAT WAS IN CAPSLOCK. HERE I WILL QUOTE MYSELF.

3. SUBSTRIKE. WHY THE EFF HAVEN'T YOU CONTRIBUTED TO THE NEIGHBOUR QT. YOU ADMITTED TO A SUPREMELY ANTI-TOWN ACTION. WHEN YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE PUBLICALLY ATTACKING NEIGHBOURS in QT OR THREAD to get reads off people I EXPECTED YOU TO TAKE ON LEADERSHIP IN THE THREAD or QT. / Rage

4. Substrike: You do realize the irony of the statement:

"You're lynching me because I haven't been around alot" go and "Lynch Dekes, or Aikage who do the same thing". Why me over them? Why you over them?

I've been pursuing a Dekes case for a bit (which I think got lost in my catchup post so I'm going to revisit it later). I've done reads on Aikage. So stop this BS and start showing me why you shouldn't be a lynch. Right now in your post you just equated yourself to Dekes/Aikage whom you said are very scummy players according to your criteria. Thus you are saying you're scummy, but don't lynch you. The whining is stupid. Your defense is full of holes. Take your own advice and do something about it.

[DTMaster]

1. Loc, your case on Ray makes more sense in reverse. Since Ray stepped down from the leading wagon it doesn't read as opportunistic. However I'm missing maybe a few posts between Substrike and BE since I did reread again and Ray did suspect BE earlier:

As a matter of following through with my own idea, here is my list:

1. blooderection - overall, hasn't really put any case forth for anybody, generic noise reaction to being questioned and a lot of RAEG and NOU without a lot of HERESWHY.
2. bunnylover - early day posting was so light and empty that I read it and felt hungry while late day posting had light stuff when actually talking about things outside of defense, seems as if bunnylover's only posting a lot when he's defending his actins. This isn't one of those quantity vs quality things, since the posts aren't exactly quality.
3. exilon - mixture of gut as well as end of the day push at LL based off of something rather flimsy and then suddenswitch to GIS. It doesn't sit as opportunism, but I'd hardly call it townish. At a loss for words to express the reason there.

I'd probably like a few more multi attacks but the day was filled with shift analysis which explains the lack of posts attacking BE. There were too many people posting about that rather then doing both :<. It's a high noise ratio.

2. Dawww ABR. <3s

3. Exlion. No "technically does not". But it makes you very, very, very, very credible. As a day actioner. And since your target didn't claim an anti-town action to discredit you it makes sense. Plus your claim and actions says a lot about you so I believe in you.

4. Wait

We have two night vig claims? One from Nikanor and Aikage?

Assuming that a 4th kill didn't occur on JaLBoC, aren't we missing a kill from a scum faction if there were 2 scum teams? (Highly plausable but something to consider for now in a high PR game. I'd expect kills to go missing, but I didn't expect two night kill claims.) This is new development. Going to mull it over.

[DTMaster]

1. Loc doh I forgot you were Furry's replacement. 5 Unremovable votes on you is ok (it's pretty early still). I don't want that near lylo though due to quick hammers and such but it'll only be day 3. This makes my read heavily conflicted:

Role says town just because it's super anti-town and works best as a town player or maybe neutral. My questions say otherwise.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: question. Sorry I confused you with Beefster. My analysis also with the suicide plan tips it in the town scale.

Beefster is conflicted. Nameloc = townie.

[DTMaster]

"face palm" Nikanor claimed he is involved in Untrod's death (i.e. Nikanor as the voice soft claimed for the mason group) please before you do any more, just say that you can confirm 2 NKs were claimed in thread that are accurate to your knowledge (i,e. assuming Aikage is telling the truth). That's all I need to know.

It may or may not influence the outcome depending on what other people's night actions were but it's something to consider while we scum hunt (that we might have a missing kill that is)

[DTMaster]

It's because I am attacking them. For example: Mothrax ignored much of my points as I quoted against him. Thus I quoted them again for him to read and respond to. Considering they reached the prod limit again, I'd say sufficient time has passed between their last post and now that there should have been more.

Please, let's argue with the mod confirmed people who hadn't posted recently:

Prodding Chronopie, Aikage, mothrax, Blooderection, and Dekes. Still looking for a replacement for jenniwren.
CAN YOU GUYS PLEASE TELL YOUR FRIENDS WE NEED A REPLACEMENT I MEAN SERIOUSLY.

[DTMaster]

I should really include sarcasm tags. Anyways. Time to go over Aikage, and Dekes like I said a billion times but only did a few :<.

[DTMaster]

Also it's almost a week since the last post between Dekes and Moth. I want to see more since my reiteration on Friday (so I concede that there hasn't been a lot of time between my post and for them to respond to, only like 3 DAYS). A lot happened in a week and they haven't done much in it.

[DTMaster]

Do I need to quote time stamps for Mothrax in regards to my post? If you go back I repeated my arguments again for him to post on. V.V. I'm giving them a chance to post. Their flakiness is compounding frustration on the issue.

The argument applies to Mothrax more then Dekes since Mothrax missed my post in the time frame while my Dekes case got buried in my catchup.

[DTMaster]

Except you ignored these parts in regards to the neighbor issue when you stated that it's statistically better to focus outside the neighbourhood.

a. It's not a better probability to address outside the neighborhood. Thus you are wrong.
b. The issue still stands within the neighborhood regardless of numbers pointed in a. Why should we ignore this?
c. Why can't we do both and scumhunt within and outside the group? I've done both when I attacked Substrike, defended Chrono, and attacked people outside of the two claimed neighbours (i.e. you, Dekes, Chess, Nikanor, etc)

And I also counted that statement with:

Townies would scum hunt their scum reads regardless of neighbourhood status. . I agree with one thing about Nikanor: If a neighbour is town, he is likely to publically show his suspicions throughout the game. This includes scumhunting in the neighbourhood (even if this is a minor read he'd scum hunt multiple people at once). Townies do not, absolutely do not withhold scum-reads and do nothing about it . They attack, make use of the thread, and if they have a role make use of that.

Why would a townie not publically scum hunt their reads?

. It's counter intuitive to hide reads.

I read your post. I responded. Where is mine good sir.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: Technically you didn't say it was statistically better, but that it was just better to focus outside. This quote from you:

As for bigger scum to fry, I meant that there seems to be a focus on solely the neighbors when there is a high probability that there is other scum out there and in a vanillaless game the probability that they are more powerful than the neighbors is also high.

Though that last statement is kind of weird now that I think about it since if scum were PRs, it would be true that they are more powerful then sleeper roles which is true.

I also wasn't clear on a point. If you don't get replaced by then, can you clarify how it's townie to withhold your reads?

[DTMaster]

Urk, if you don't get replaced by then :<.

[DTMaster]

Bahhhhhh deadline?!!? I'll post my quick responses first then reply to Mothrax's post in more detail after (it was going to be my 1)

2. Beefster. Um if someone is overly assertive and you don't like that

be critical man

. If you think that someone is scum trying to take on a leader ship role it'll help that you'd point out "how XXX is scummy" and be pro-active about it yourself. Otherwise when you call out someone's aggressiveness, it's can easily be attributed to play-style. It's not really a strong enough argument.

A good case study is Incognito in newbie games (read how I caught scum day 1 here http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 50&t=14127). As an IC he posts "good posts" but there are subtle things that I used to narrow down the scum team in my list.

What is it about Rayfrost that gets your nickers in a twist? Try and narrow down the specifics.

3. Nikanor claimed a cop result on Chess and lied about it, not on Cupcake. Nikanor also claimed on behalf of the mason group. These are different points. Beefster. Get the facts straight as well

4. Nikanor: Please, just confirm that

you can confirm Untrod's death

. I don't need to know you're not a vig.

Aikage claimed the kill on Fate

. Can you still support you simply have knowledge of the second kill. Potential unaccounted kills are sources of information (regardless of the high skew of PRs there would be in this game) and might be critical later on with full claims.

5.

I agree with Ray's nod for an extension Mods?

. Sorry guys (had a 4 hour lab boo). I sent the mods an MSN message to reply ASAP.

6. If BE flips town, I'd consider thinking that Substrike-town is possible actually. His emphasis on BE's wagon is ringing town vibes for me since it's asking people to be critical over the wagons rather then herp derp voting. I empathize since this argument has been used by me before in BRR! Mafia (my meta is in the wiki.).

I still got lynched but I did get a few solid town reads on people. Also people thought I was town but still lynched me since I lied about my claim lol (gambit failed) to drum up reactions. Oh well.

If I get a no I'll hammer if Frost doesn't first but I'll work on my case for now.

[DTMaster]

I may have had something to do with UT's death.
@Chronopie & Substrike: Do you suspect any of your neighbors? If so, who are they? Don't worry about revealing roles; Neighbor Sleeper is ridiculously weak so you're not giving anything away.

Post 45 in Isolation by Nikanor. First line. Aikage claimed here

i still think its only good for scum to findd out my role but i will claim if it will stop the death of an inosent guy

i am medigoron, im a hero and i think i killed fate last night, thats what i was hopeing

i like the votes on the blood wagon, he is scum! can we get ythan tomorrow plz plz??

dram maybe i can get my brother to play for jeniwren, but this game is so long to read i dont know if hed like it

Iso 12 Aikage. Hence why I said 2 vig claims?

[DTMaster]

Nikanor claimed non-vig. But if he's simply information claiming then that still stands as: 2 night vigs? If we have at least 2 scum factions there is a missing kill. This information isn't important now, but may be later when people claim their actions. Hence I want this information verified.

[DTMaster]

No, because Nikanor confirmed that the shift was day only because he targetted Untrod sucessfully. You can't use that argument without calling Nikanor scum at the same time.

[DTMaster]

I should say that the target on Untrod was completed sucessfully, since Nikanor claimed he also didn't target him.

[DTMaster]

After speculating about the shift this was posted by Nikanor to verify that it was day only.

I really truly doubt that there is a shift at night.

[DTMaster]

FYI: People if Nikanor verifies this information it should be a cue for blockers to pressure their targets if they don't already have scum reads on them to see if it's accurate. Also it's a cue for protectors for people to weigh in on their town reads. Since this proves that night actions are accurate (also good for informational roles later on).

This is the point I'm trying to make if people don't get why.

PEdit: Nikanor or Mason team doesn't need to specify how UT died. What's key is that they can say that UT died accurately as stated by Nikanor, confirming the above FYI conditions.

[DTMaster]

Also confirms Aikage's claimed kill as well.

[DTMaster]

Actually Substrike killing Nikanor explains the extra kill. Awesome gambit Nikanor, you caught scumz with your PGO powers. LL and Cupcake are officially cleared from the all for one/ one for all scum theory.

Thus I suggest we do the following things:
a. Reread the people who died ie. Nikanor/Ray
b. Have Chrono explain if the Neighbourhood had come to any conclusions during the night (since Ray flipped sage I believe an earlier argument I made about this needs to be reassessed)
c. VC analysis since we have a purple person flip, this might be other scum?
d.

Masons if what ever Nikanor was saying was true in relation to UT, please assess that on your own terms. I have and Idea and this should be discussed between the Masons

If Nikanor was telling the truth, that means that we have 2 missing kills last night (counting that Orange scum and Purple scum failed to kill since both kills on UT was "psudoclaimed" and can be explained by the Masons still and Aikage claimed he was responsible for Fate's death.
e. Aikage: Can you explain if a death tonight was a result from you.
f. Resume my case from before.

[DTMaster]

From the VC analysis, the best thing we can do is catch purple scum in the competing wagon. If this was a 4 man team, I'd predict 2-3 on BE while 1-2 bussing substrike. In terms of Yellow scum, we can't determine it from either wagon analysis since both wagons were non-yellow attributed.

I suggest that we look at both:

a. the scummiest votes
b. the most likely purple scum votes.

with the focus on a.

By doing both we should be able to pull more information out of the wagons since purple scum would have a stronger inclination to force a BE lynch. With a cheater/even-day Strongman killer, Substrike's role in itself is very vital. Something to consider in the VC analysis to pull more suspects.

[DTMaster]

Also notes:

BE explains both cukoo events D1. Makes sense. Also with JMJ we know flavourwise the shifts are at least determined by sight (which is weird) since jmj targeted Exlion (do correct me if I'm wrong). Compulsive vig + inactivity = horrible luck.

Mulling it over, it makes sense now. A bit too late though.

[DTMaster]

Quick skim reads of the following people leads me to go here:

Nikanor: Heavily suspects Kdub. Dislikes: Beefster, AKR, mothrax.

Notes: Should check out JalboC wagon.

Rayfrost: Dislike: Vezok, BL and ABR (Vezok and BL are additional bad wagoners). Attacking Kdub.

Notes: Summarizes bad wagoners on Substrike (potential yellow scum) as Dekes, ABR

Exlion: I suspect that his role was the main reason for his death but it's still worth checking out who he thinks is scum.

Um. Substrike and Nikanor/Cup/LLD ><;; were his main scum reasons.

[DTMaster]

SK and scum would not know each other were scum sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh

Not necessarily-

Yellow could be a second scum faction.

Nothing is proven by the flip color.

Something strikes me as odd here. The bolded part reads like a scum slip. Now that we have 3 colours flip (2 scumcolours from my understanding since a strong man is not a town role) the connotation that yellow was the second scum faction rather then the first when it was blue and yellow on day 1 doesn't sit well with me psychologically. It reads as: someone who knows a little too much. I'll try and do a search to see if the words "second scum" was used a lot. The person who used it first should be suspect for this.

Beefster I had a post that I wanted you to reply to here in regards to Rayfrost. He's dead but take me through your thought processes to why you thought his leadership was scummy. We know the punchline was wrong, but I want to see your logic.

[DTMaster]

Wait... if Exlion or/and Chess targeted Nikanor, it explains any missing kills. Mayyybe depends on the resolution of Chess though.

[DTMaster]

With 17 people and 2 confirmed we drop down to 15. In a 8 person scum number and 4 person scum team, that leaves 2:3:10 ratio (or in terms of pure numbers 5:10). This doesn't include neutral roles/etc.

If we could work the neighbors in a block it'll become either a 5:6 (or 5/11 block assuming we confirm 4 without scum deaths; 5/5 or 1/2 if we can call all 5 neighbors town) or (4/11 eliminating the 5th neighbour as scum without NKs).

I'm not including NKs since we don't have a consistent number, and relying on cross kills is unreliable. But in a traditional sense if we fail to mislynch scum it'll drop to 5/7 which is precarious for town. 5/4 comes after.

So I'd guestimate that we should treat this like 1 cycle before potential lylo.

I have to respond to Moth's response soon, but as I left off with my case there and Dekes. My brain is on Beefster

Vote: Beefster

. I'll start here and work my way around eventually.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: I'm assuming 2 NKs and 1 lynch for a decreasing pattern of 3. Since both the vig and PGO died, I'm assuming no other shenanigans at the moment.

Edit: Because he's probably was the closest to scum. With Cupcake's lack of a presence and the berating LL got from Nikanor end of Day-1, it ruins their credibility (that and Exlion got a guilty on her which added lots of noise) Outing the masons is a statistical disadvantage to scum since it clears 2 other people at once.

Rereading is tech Ythan. He's dead, but he posted his scum reads.

[DTMaster]

I'm at school so I'll reply to the most recent questions/comments.

1. Cupcake/ABR: If you guys are really stressing multiple scum factions (as in 3) the purple scum-fits that bill better then yellow (or we did not uncover the SK yet). Aside from flavour arguments the reason why I think yellow is mafia rather then a team of SKs is:

a. There were two of them. A team of SKs should be treated as a team of scum, therefore the difference between mafia and SK is redundant. Speculating on SK factions is something only Mafia could do. Thus it's best to treat them as scum.

b. One of them flipped

Cop blocker

which in a mechanics sense is the counter

to the effing day- BOSS - cop

. However, I won't discount the possibility of the 3rd faction because a second factional cop may exist. I believe that this second factional cop will mirror some elements of Exlion but these are personal notes and I'll only apply them when/if the cop chooses to claim.

c. This is for ABR: This is a better theory

to having 6 kill turn over per day: 2 from your "mafia", 2 from the yellow SKs, 1 from BE who flipped compulsive vig, and 1 claimed by Aikage as a kill

. Is that the yellow faction "elemental kills" is a factional ability rather then an individual kill.

Reread Nikanor's PGO role where it specifies "non water". Also Cupcake and Chess both claimed "Water" as their attributes. Elements are mentioned explicitly in a few roles, therefore it makes sense that these killers are only effective for their elements or has something to do with their elements (As a restrictive SK lover makes no sense in a balanced mechanic for SKs since the roles flipped in the game so far are highly insane and powerful). It makes more sense mechanically that they'd be balanced in a team.

Sks that block are unconventional because they don't have survivability as a solo faction. SKs with super bullet proof powers are more conventional. I'd expect the SK(s) in this game to be more powerful then a lover/blocker duo.

However, I do agree that 2+ scum factions are possible. Since we had an AOE bullet proof magnet and a PGO, there'd still be a high kill count since town had the means to counter that. We also had 2 lynch modifying roles flip as a counter to scum hammers. In my original assumption of 5:10 ratio, if this remains constant and we actually have 3 killing scum factions this drops to 5:6 if we mislynch and all the kills are town directed. Thus we are still 1 stage before lylo, but we are decreasing faster then expected.

2. I speculated that Twinrova is different from the witches back on Day 2 at the start of the game. Though as a separate role is different to what I thought of. We should

3. A scum ninja wouldn't claim being vanillized >>;; in a fake claim gambit. The only way they would if a. they knew their scum buddy got vanillized, b. had some way to track and verify chess' ability worked, and c. them claiming vanillized is a bad thing because Chess strongly said that he vanillized those that he thought were scum.

So claiming being vanillized doesn't affect alignment reads. >>;;. Giving scum a kill list based on PRs maybe, but regardless of PR status if the vanillized town were really good in their analysis (if they are town), they'd still be considered to be offed.

4. Instant confirming the sages should only come after we analyze them since the possibility of scum-sage is still there. At least 1 for mirroring purposes in a 2 team game. If we treat the sages like normal people, then the block of town reads will come naturally.

Also ABR: In this theory this means a 5-6:2:(4? or less):16 or 11:16 in a 5-6 potential kill turn over in scum? Assuming that all the targets are scum (-1 for sub strike). If everything affected town in 1 day scum would take over the town if there were no kills on them in an 11:11-11:10 scum to town ratio >>;;. That's a high number of scum to assume ABR. That's about half or more of the players currently alive would have to be scum for your theory to work.

5. Beefster: Are you saying that Aikage is scum then? A cross kill would imply that Aikage-scum claimed the kill on yellow. Nikanor's soft claim on UT makes sense to how UT died (it was a soft claim that UT targeted Nikanor). Both kills are accounted for

and those aren't the important ones

. We are missing a few kills

and that's what's important

.

Also class is starting soon for me so I'll finish my thoughts later.

[DTMaster]

@Work
DGB, you're missing that Gandalf flipped town. That should narrow things down in the second wagon analysis.

Also for more information the votes on Mafyuu/Nameloc are all self votes (they are generated by his role). It was claimed that his role causes these self votes (I think by breaking some condition or what ever).

The wagon analysis looks at the largest bandwagons and looks at the ratio of known scum and known town to likely suspects. For example like I said earlier in the late BE vs Substrike wagon. Orange scum would be scattered throughout both wagons. But there should be a skew of purples on BE voting to allow Substrike to get a strongarm kill in and maybe 1-2 on Substrike to bus. I'd expect from usual mafia trend a 3:1 ratio of Purple on BE to Purple on Substrike.

When you play a lot of games you'll see trends in scum voting patterns. The people that appear on this list should be reread and then go from there.

So example in total: Kai/Beefster, Mothrax, ABR are a few that fit this trend of continious scummy voting.

PEdit: Oth of the ones there I find Mothrax scummy. I find ABR lurking (possible lurking scum), though I'd prefer that he get vig'd. (But the vig died) I find Nameloc townie because of his claimed role

and he wanted to do a suicide PR plan that involves himself

. Vezok I find mildly scummy enough to keep tabs on. AKR I need to reread. Ythan I also need to reread.

[DTMaster]

Sorry. I've been away (can't post fully till friday), except Beefster now is scum. Read the following posts starting on page 73: Link Here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1800

Ok we are at L-2 here is our role PM

Friends are a nice thing to have... Heh, heh. Could you be my friend, too? Eh-hee-hee... You have the same smell as the fairy kid who taught me that song in the woods...

Welcome to Ocarina of Time Mafia,

GandalfIzSik

. You are

Skull Kid

. You’re an odd little creature, and you’re terrified of adults. In fact, you’d rather just spend your days playing in the forest...but with the evil that now threatens to overtake Hyrule getting to be more of a problem, you figured it’s time to stop pussyfooting around and take a stand to save your land!

Race:

Verdant Skull Kid

Faction:

Hero

You are a

Bulletproof Area of Effect Magnet

. You have the following special abilities:

Passive Abilities:

Child of the Lost Woods

- After spending so much time in the Lost Woods, you’ve learned to melt into the shadows. You are unaffected by normal kills.

Active Abilities:

Mind-Altering Melody

- At night, you may target three players that are next to each other on the player list in the opening post. All actions these players use will be redirected to you for the night.

Please remember that you can use only one active ability per phase.

Win Condition (Hero):

You win when all threats have been eliminated and the land of Hyrule is safe once again.

Please confirm via return PM.

The topic is here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 53&start=0

I meant to post this earlier, but I sent it to reckanomic instead >.<

How is that role supposed to be pro-town? I highly doubt there would ever be 3 adjacent scum players. (It's highly unlikely) To me it seems like it would end up doing more harm than good because it will most likely be targeting 3 town, possibly 1 scum, probably not any more than that. It's basically a mass (fail) roleblocker.

Ythan you are the antitown one, it is bad to be so rude to people. but im thinking your town still even tho your bein an ashole

Ythan is being Ythan. Rudeness is a nulltell. You have to look at other stuff to get the big picture.

Drippingolfball, i dun get what you mean by all the points and the colors. can you explain it more for me plz? Im happy i have a vote so i can help lynch scum now, its akr and probly mothrax, i think dtmaster is right about him

I don't really get it either. But it looks pretty legit. Vote analysis is a great tool.

i still think its bad to claim so early, i thought you were supposed to claim at l-1, why do yuo guys think i should claim so early?

Remember what happened day 1? We HAD to go with a policy lynch because there was NO time to shift over to a better lynch candidate. If Gandalf/Shotty would have claimed earlier, we would have avoided that.

Why harro there: beefster thought Gandalf was scummy because of his role. I addressed this earlier Here

How is that role supposed to be pro-town? I highly doubt there would ever be 3 adjacent scum players. (It's highly unlikely) To me it seems like it would end up doing more harm than good because it will most likely be targeting 3 town, possibly 1 scum, probably not any more than that. It's basically a mass (fail) roleblocker.

I found this post odd now. I read GIS' role and the above argument sounds like:

This role has anti-town, as most pro-town roles have anti-town elements (i.e. town RB, town doc, CPR doc, cops that are not sane, jailkeepers, vigs, etc) rather then this claim sucks and it's scummy. The purpose is to self direct kills to his bullet proofness (which is the second one claimed in this game lols). It can also direct actions. It doesn't stop cop investigations, nor role blocks, nor whatever.

This role actually makes more sense as a role that a townie could epiclly use to save the town or hurt the town (hence double edge sword). Much like Chess' claim. I don't see why this role = scummy when your arguments show how it fits in the town really well as a role that could do good or bad things depending on how you use it.

Did you see how Beefster just distanced himself from the Gandalf wagon because he said it was policy? Complete lies

He called Ganadlf scummy. He said that based on Gandalf's role

it was a legitimate reason for Gandalf's scumminess

. This wasn't a policy lynch, Beefster said Gandalf was scum.

We caught scum people. Case. Point. Match.

Lynch this man now.

Vote Beefster

[DTMaster]

Ah. Sorry about that ck3 vote earlier. I was like 4 pages before the cop claim/check in my reading.

I also just saw some of my predecessors arguments against GIS, namely this one:

GIS is REEEEEEACHING to try to revive the Chesskid wagon after it's finally died. Probably scum.

So I'm on page 21 and wondering why there's a page 22.
Here are the possibilities, in order of likelihood:
1. Chess is scum, telling the truth about his role. He knows he'll be lynched tomorrow if he's not today, so he'll use his ability tonight, no question. Not to mention, he's scum, so. INSTALYNCH MATERIAL.
2. Chess is scum, lying about his role. He's scum. So. Also, don't rule this one out because chess couldn't come up with that fakeclaim. Dram always has QTs open during daytime, so a scumbuddy could have done it, no problem. INSTALYNCH MATERIAL
3. Chess is town, telling the truth about his role. He needs to die, or he'll OMGUS with his role. INSTALYNCH MATERIAL
4. Chess is town, lying about his role. He's retarded. INSTALYNCH MATERIAL.

So useless! Scum.

Why me? on post 885

Cases are scummy

General Active Lurking

----

JABOC attacks only active lurkers around post 889

----

Now on page 42.

To reinforce the idea, the above quote shows that Beefster thought Chess was scum. Beefster is trying to get Aikage to claim.

It's not townie to distance yourself from your original arguments, nor entirely

lie about your stance against Gandalf

. Beefster stated he felt that Gandalf is scum, now he's twisting the Town flip from Gandalf for an Aikage claim.

Classic scum-rolefishing to find out Aikage's role.

If Beefster does flip scum, Aikage is probably not of the same faction. Considering that Beefster is trying so hard to find out about Aikage's claimed kill, it makes Aikage look good (a bit terrible game play for mafia).

If you read between the lines: It totally reads as Beefster seeing Aikage as a threat with the great amount of twisting he did on his Gandalf stance from Day 1 to now in his most recent post.

[DTMaster]

Also if you compare the dates. Gandalf claimed on the 22nd. The deadline was the 24th. Moving 13 votes over 2 days while improbable, isn't impossible.

[DTMaster]

Beefster said that Gandalf's lynch was a result of policy lynching. But Beefster clearly stated originally that he thought Gandalf was scummy. Beefster is showing a disconnect by saying it was a policy lynch over a scum lynch. Thus the jist of the case is:

Because Beefster says that Gandalf's lynch was based on policy, this is not a town mind set since he is distancing himself from the wagon. The majority of the people thought Gandalf was scummy. As a towns person, even though the lynched a useful PR, the player himself was scummy and it was a town derived kill on a scum-suspect (which narrows down who they think is scum).

When Beefster mentions that it's policy and Aikage should claim because Gandalf didn't claim on time, this isn't a town mindset to scum hunt. It reads as role fishing because when a person doesn't claim, it's another nail against their target (for their case). Also when Beefster said that claiming would have avoided a Gandalf lynch, that's completely a lie because Beefster said that the claim was scummy in it self based on it's role.

So Beefster showed 2 cases of lying (on why gandalf was lynched, and that the lynch could be avoided), 1 case of poor argument (which reads as role fishing), and shows signs that his actions are more scum derived and townie derived when you question his posts with: What's the purpose of the question he's asking/What's the purpose of the statement he posted.

[DTMaster]

If you look at the post alone with the Aikage point, the whole thing is invalidated with the posts I quoted.

If you consider that Gandalf flipped town, its "psychologically" bad to be associated with that since scum would know this and would be eager to jump on the wagon. Obviously though, there were legitimate reasons and the wagon went through. But Beefster doesn't mention any of those.

Cross checking Beefster's behaviour back on Day 1 clashes with the statement he posted on Aikage.

[DTMaster]

Afiak: If I'm not clear here's it simplified:

If Beefster thought the wagon was policy based

he wouldn't call Gandalf scummy

. He would say that this wagon was a policy based wagon and he had other scum reads that were stronger.

[DTMaster]

Immediate responses:

@ABR
1. Lovers scum is still possible. The fact that there is an entire setup called Lovers Mafia should be a hint, and it's a mini normal game. You haven't had any proof to show that these two are SKs.

Only scum could determine that because they would know more about the factions

then the town.

2. I still don't understand why there couldn't be "boss scum" within the neighborhood. This assumption assumes an uneven distribution of scum to neighbors (which is possible) which lacks any mirroring. Based on Chrono's statement Substrike provided an identical claim to the rest of the sages showing that scum would be given fake claims. Heck, as a mod I'd put the person's real role as their target, and make their fake claim be the lyncher to their target for lols and giggles for situational irony.

It's sloppy to auto clear the unconfirmed block. Scum hunting within the neighborhood should still be done while we focus on our main cases.

@JMJ's claim
Jmj did not claim frog. However he did claim some important information. When we mass claim, I want people to reread my earliest statement about the frog user since a few criteria make sense from a motives POV that could clear X person. Unfortunately, this frog won't catch scum (as I think the frogger suspects chrono) since the frog actually deters scum from actions since it's a public ability. (Shame, it's not sneaky). Oh wellz, information is still good and the motives are there to pretty much clear the frog player.

@DGB
Here's the post to reinforce my read on Nameloc.

Whew, I'm not doing another mass read through again, that's for sure!

I don't like Ray's being dedicated to the substrike lynch and then jumps to the BE lynch. I wouldn't mind having Ray be vigbait especially if substrike is town.

I wondering if BE is a LLD lyncher...BE can you provide a "up-to-date" case on LLD? You're insistence on her lynch is very disturbing.

Question for DTM: How does CK's targets make them "autotown"? Explain.

Jmj, are you claiming responsibility for the frog-snitch?

Hey y'all just want to add: if anyone is worried about my "extra" votes going into a later round, I know a way to fix this without wasting a lynch or vigshot on me. Granted this may be looking to far into the future, but as long as LLD is around later, I can use my night ability on her and suicide. Keep this in mind for future reference, so I can use my ability and get rid of myself at the most opportune time.

I'll do more analysis later.

Hey guys, anybody think that my five unremovable votes would be a danger tomorrow? Or could I wade it out for now? As soon as I need to, I'll target LLD with my nightability so as to suicide.

Ray, the opportunism I saw is that you jumped from the leading bandwagon after being almost CONVINCED he was scum. If you happen to be substrike's scumbuddy, then you just attempted to distance yourself without committing to the lynch. It just didn't appear to be a natural jump from one bandwagon to the other. I just doubt ONE post by substrike would make you change your mind about him. That's all.

I'll try to squeeze in an analysis post on BE and Rayfrost before deadline.

@Nameloc
As much as I dislike the perm-self votes, your situation causes a sticky mess as we approach the endgame. I rather keep you for the town-read, but game play wise I kind of want you dead since Nikanor was the PGO, not LL. Your insistence on dying makes it tough, but for now

do not obtain more votes on yourself

.

These next couple of days become critical since Aikage is voteless and you have selfvotes, thus I realize that town is in more dire straits if a faction controls a good amount of votes. If both you and Aikage are town, then we have 1 less vote to use and we have essentially a public weak townie.

[DTMaster]

Bunny, there is a big difference between lurking and active lurking. Lurking for example is what I did through the first two days and is a null tell.

Active lurking is posting contentless fluff

in excess

which is a scumtell. Also thanks for playing the newbcard. Newb scum don't buss and your avoidance of the sub wagon reeks of newbscum.

Vote:bunnylover

Also found it ~<3 Read the parts in red above. Someone just admitted to lurking for the first two days. Totally lots of scum points here.

[DTMaster]

@LL
Um, exactly, because Nikanor is dead Nameloc can't suicide. Thus: Nameloc's plan is down the drain and his status as weak townie is a danger to us. However his response to your claim makes him townie because he wanted to do a suicide plan.

I want my town read to live, I don't want the weak townie role to stay. Thus I don't want more self votes being inflicted on Nameloc as a compromise between the two to minimize the danger of scum quick hammers in the endgame. Nameloc will live because of his role as a weak townie. Thus we approach lylo with the danger of a quick hammer.

[DTMaster]

Guys: assuming that Nameloc is town, and if there is a full faction of scum left, scum can start as of now quick hammering. If there is 4 aligned scum, and 9 votes is the threshold, that means that scum can end the day at any time.

ABR: Do you still think there is a full 3rd faction of scum left?

[DTMaster]

Tomorrow if 3 townies all die, then we only need 3 scum to quick hammer, then 2 as the lynch threshold reaches 0. I just realized we have a serious dilemma actually since Nameloc has 5 self votes now.

[DTMaster]

Fuuuuuccckkkkkkkkkk... ><;; I don't think it's viable to keep Nameloc around. FUUUUCK this puts a wrench into things.

[DTMaster]

Chrono scum doesn't make sense as he's the spokesperson for the neighbours and preemptively claimed some contradictory information and supported Substrike's neighbour claim. As I said earlier, the reasons to do all of this doesn't have any scum motivation. It puts forward a ton of risk on Chrono for relatively small gain, even if he becomes associated with Sub. Chronopie also expressed that the other sages are disinterested with the neighborhood to participate in the QT.

LL to my points, what do you think about that?

[DTMaster]

@BL
1. I'd rather, rather not leave this up to prisoners dilemma. At that point in time if we do get there, the fate of the town doesn't lie with the town anymore, it's with the scum.

2. It's possible that the frog is automatic. Since Blood was a compulsive vig (meaning that he has to kill people) this is possible. But I rather wait till the claim stage. If anything my point about it being a scum deterrent (ie. stops scum from actioning) is still useful in reducing night actions from that side. Plus since you're given the option of killing the frog, we'd know who did it since the frog is public. Thinking about it, the frog is still useful in action analysis.

3. I had beef (lol pun) with Beefster earlier because of his argument against Gandalf just based on his role claim. This parallels his thought process with Aikage. Using role as an argument strikes as off to me.

@Beefster

Except we lynched the vig yesterday

. Um.... how does that work again? Also you think the other possible vig is scum (see Aikage).

BE's cukoo's explain both the attack on Cupcake and JmJ's death (read the flavour again) who was our day vig (since the cukoos attacked and resolved during the day). Aikage is the closest thing to our claimed night vig.

You missed my arguments on you in regards to what you stated about Gandalf. You just brushed it under the rug?

Did you or not think Gandalf was scummy?

. Calling it the only choice is bull shit if you were actually scum hunting. You fight tooth and nail for your scum reads, you state who you prefer over the leading wagon. Where did you do this again? Who were your preferred scum reads over Gandalf and why? Show me where you did this.

Also

defined to me what makes Aikage scummy?

Tell me why Aikage's refusal to full claim is scummy, since you called it scummy? There is no reason for Aikage to claim since he chose to claim his targets/results. He pre-emptively chose to do this, drawing in attention onto himself. Just like my point about Nameloc/Chrono, this has no scum motivation to put your neck out for something flimsy. Aikage was flying under the radar earlier, and was under no pressure to claim information.

Is that the main reason for your case?

@Mothrax
Ohhhhh gawd I felt a vein pop because I'm reliving my Haylen and SGM fights ><;;; . I'm sorry about your mother but it's more reason to cross check you to your other games. I'm going to be blunt, but getting burned by Haylen one to many times made me jaded to these kinds V/LAs.

I don't mind that lurking is a null tell argument, because it's true when you can support it with complete inactivity on the site. I'll be sifting through that.

@ABR
1. Since when does the Fire/Ice witch has to be lovers ><;;. I mean why are you extrapolating that all the orange scum are lovers, it could just be the two that were flipped were lovers.

1 of the sages = substrike was fake

This proves that the statement:

because there are sages there targets must be alive doesn't have to be true.

If substrike was poe scum, it's just as likely that his target doesn't exist in the game. This eliminates your dilemma of too many scum because you don't need to have targets being there. Just like with Chrono, we haven't disproved the possiblity that

his target doesn't even exist in the game which is just as likely to happen as a separate Twinrova role

This also applies to "boss faction sage infiltrate" >>;;. If you really wanted to be crazy Usurper roles also exist. I have an answer to the boss-sage with a boss target that's both alive scenario too.

This is going to be very circular. This isn't helping anyways so I recommend we stop these "What ifs" arguments "and setup speculation" and get on with just regular old scum hunting.

It's sloppy to auto clear all the neighbours. We can pressure them and this doesn't mean we can't scum hunt. In a numbers game you are right, if we just do an isolated group of neighbours/non-neighbour and possible scum ratio to that. But in the end we still need to deal with it, and the more we stay on top of that, the more time we have to narrow down possible neighbour scum. Like with my personal list of Beef,Moth,Kdub, Dekes (?) I'll do my thing.

But the lack of your scum hunting is a nail against you good sir. Why aren't you doing anything today? Are you just waiting for a neighbourhood claim so you can start hunting non neighbours? >>;;

@KoC/Vezok
The town flips have been super powerful so far (PGO/Vig/Magnet BP). We had lover's scum. If we assume WCS numbers, there'd be counters to that. For now assume close to lylo conditions before you go off the rocker.

@KoC
Any particular persons you dislike? You know with specifics, this leads into rereads and scum hunting.

[DTMaster]

@Work
1. DGB replaced Dekes.
2. Discouragine players from posting is increasing the noise ratio Ythan. Putting people as the same level as Zwet doesn't help scum hunting.
3. Of course Moth. Be aware I have bias based on playing with Haylen and SFG so.... if I'm unecessarily insensitive it has nothing to do with the cancer situation.

[DTMaster]

@Beef
1.

Hoorah.

Now post a catchup post, and vote GIS.

Arigatou Gozaimasu. <3

I've already voted GIS and I've already made a case on him.
I am a little uneasy with my vote, as I feel like I'm only voting against the shotty head. From what I can tell, the gandalf head seems rational, and thus disappointed in the shotty head. It's too late to change... Unless most of you are willing to switch over to substrike.

Either way, it's better than no-lynch.

Um... this is consistent except the fact that you felt that the slot was still scummy. You made a case, you feel like Gandalf was the better of the two heads, but you agree with the wagon. I see it, except the "oh crap he's probably innocent part". I see conflicted read over the hydra, but not really an innocent call here. You didn't argue against the lynch in the "oh crap he's innocent manner" as you stated.

Then why did you call your scum-read lynch a policy lynch?

. I find that disturbing. You admitted that GIS was a scum read for you at the time, but you called this lynch a policy based on time. I find it hard to believe that as town you'd distance yourself over a misread so easily and misrepresent the circumstances of the wagon.

Since you admitted that it wasn't a policy wagon

why are you pushing this argument in order for Aikage to claim when it's clearly false?

. The use of your original stance of the GIS wagon and stating an incorrect fact in a high replacement game is extremely troubling to me.

2. I explained why I thought Aikage is a good person to be a vig based on how he claimed (however this isn't true since he claimed a target that didn't die and claimed non vig). If you consider his actions, it makes no sense as scum to do that. It does make sense as confused town to claim actions or someone who wants to correct the information.

BE flipped vig, I'm going to assume the worst case scenerio and that there isn't a vig left.

3. The inconsistency in the manner of how he claimed? He's been consistent on who he think is scum. Did you actually read his fluff? the only argument that applies is lurking. Look when I iso read the man here's what happened in this so called "fluff":

A summary read of Aikage reveals:
a. He was voteless. This was proven in the vote count earlier. Now Aikage claimed he gained his vote.
b. He claims that he targeted Fate N1 and most likely responsible for his death, and a target on Ythan N2 but explained that he couldn't kill bad people. The fact that

Aikage is speculating on what his role does should be a signal for you to what Aikage is soft claiming here. It's simple. Ask yourself: Why is the guy who's claiming night action speculating on his action does.

c. Aikage claimed Medigorin of the hero faction
d. His original scum list included Ythan and BE (since they were linked), but based on flip and role information he now suspects AKR and Moth. He thinks that Ythan's actions are only aggressive and anti-town, but Ythan is cleared based on his night action.

He feels that AKR is scum because of his opportunistic vote on him yesterday since AKR apparently didn't offer a clear transition from suspicion to vote on Aikage. (should check it out)

He agrees that DGB's VC analysis points to Moth and agrees on my attacks on Moth.

e. He doesn't think that you're scum for attacking him because you don't understand his role. He's not being defensive, and he's placing himself in your shoes in what he thinks you know of himself. This is a big thing motive wise.

So this "fluff" if you sit down and read it has a lot of information about Aikage. Did you read the man again?

[DTMaster]

Fluff =/= Person of suspect + reason man. Even if his reasons are getting refuted by the attackers.

[DTMaster]

@AKR
I'm rereading and there's only a few times you did refrence Beef as scummy. This supports your original counter argument except you didn't vote Beef.

(just a note, these posts are for my sanity)

I'm calling page 72 the game's turning point, ie when stuff goes from useless to usefull. It's the page where the nik/cupcake/LL (I think that's who it is...) mason claim happens.

Beefster's vote here is scummy as hell. How has no one picked up on his random hop onto the leading wagon? I'll be reading him in the context of scum from now on.

Then Nikanor mistyped and cleared him as mason when it wasn't true, therefore after Nikanor clarified this detail there should have been more agression on Beef. This is the only time you addressed Beefster, but there was no vote.

You moved onto Substrike then talked about the bosses mentioned by Ythan/etc/etc/etc. Then you question about Nik's involvement with Untrod's death. Then you vote Aikage because the shift (which was claimed at the time to be not-shifting at night, but that's what Nikanor claimed). Then you called bunny scum.

You do realize that Aikage's argument holds water and you don't seem to be sticking to your guns with your scum reads? Where's the Bunny attacks? Why did you drop your Beefster attacks? You really only mentioned him once, even if you did call him scum. You showed suspicion only once.

Aikage has the upper hand in the court man.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: Twice with the recent question. But at the time when you responded to Aikage's attack it was once.

[DTMaster]

Just posting to say I won't be able to do more analysis till Tuesday. Busy schedule etc etc. Stay tuned to DTManalysis then.

[DTMaster]

Only have time of immediate responses.
@ABR.
Remember what I said earlier to the sages that I wanted to consider?

See this post in reference to Sage's targets being scum.

Some thoughts while I mull over this claim.
a. What substrike said about members not claiming unless is necessary is pinging on the towndar for me. (Seems odd to say that now from a scum perspective)
b. Also I have a thought for the sages to think about (do not answer these questions in thread) since it's a crazy idea I thought of that confirms though we shouldn't trust flavour analysis (Aside from Harry Potter Mafia and Nik and I's KOL mafia being good examples of not trusting flavour) but people seem to still want to do flavour analysis.

If a few of you are sleeper roles (as in you need to kill a specific target to gain your powers) it's possible to see that:

a. Dram is accurate to the flavour and it's likely that your targets if they are "villians" like Ganandorf would be scum.
b. If your targets are town aligned players, then simillar logic applies.
c. This validates any flavour analysis since Dram is known to be accurate (see his other Theme games) and any flavour based roles (like a flavour cop).

If there is a larger number of you to fall under this catagory.
a. In terms of villians, accurate flavours cause diminishing returns from scum lost to "town power". Scum would either have to be extremely powerful individually. (If you think about it in terms of game role balancing if all the targets were scum: scum would have diminishing power in exchange for town gaining power). This seems off for balancing it.
b. If they are largely town targets that might balance out (exchange of PRs) but it seems like a huge hit on town (i.e. if you are considering it, it means 6-8/28 people, some who are town to consider town on town actions if flavour was accurate). That's off.
c. It's more likely you have a mix of a and b to equal out the numbers, and this especially works out if you have flavour being independent of roles.

An angle we could try, is to break the game via the neighbours (but we have to assume most of them are town) via the above principle in terms of balancing. I'm not sure if it's possible though.

An addition would be not all the targets are in this game rendering some sages pretty much vanillia (except that they are neighbours). This is supported with Saria (sp)'s claim in regards to possible town:town killing where we have

Town-Sages having Targets to Town-Characters

. It's not that far fetched

and from a modding point of view acts as a balance against having all sages having targets of all scum

.

I'm inclined to believe Saria in this case to be a town neighbour because

her role would be anti-town if it matches with who I think it does

. Having anti-town elements would be a distraction, (eg. see my point on Beefster in his argument against Gandalf's role) rather then something scum would have.

@Town

I don't understand the need for Aikage to claim when Aikage claimed his night action and his results

. Ihmo from a motivation point of view,

it makes no sense for scum to do this

. It makes more sense for scum to be pushing for this claim because Aikage claimed a potential killing power.

What is with people and their obsession with his claim? Aikage claimed information, he claimed his town and scum targets and who would be town resulting from his actions. I face palm at this wagon.

@AKR
If you didn't suspect beef, why did you drop the case outlined in my post? If you were suspect with Beef and continue to be suspect with him:

why do you agree with Beefster?

.

Why are you pushing so hard on this Aikage case, and not doing anything to advance your Beefcase? I don't see how your actions corelate with your stances. When you work so hard on all these other cases like BE, etc and drop your Beefster case all of a sudden, this is suspicious. It's like a distancing ploy.

Ihmo this reads as Beef/AKR team. If either of them flips scum

it's very likely the other is the scum buddy

.

@Mothrax
You sir are scummy:

On top of that your posts are difficult to read.

This is not a reason why someone is scum. If you were town you would ask Aikage to clarify. You don't use someones' lack of clarity to be part of your argument to vote them. This alone is scummy.

@Beefster
1. Why haven't you replied to my Aikage defence? My points are valid in regards to Aikage's posts from what I read.

2. It's not OMGUS since Aikage provided a reason for his vote, which was my case where you contradicted yourself today from your day 1 play. Since you changed your reason for voting Gandalf from "he is scum" to "not enough time, it was all policy and that was the best vote", it's still a valid argument.

This trend is typical of scum, and in the words of DGB kamikaze, those who do this are typically scum (though you didn't hammer Gandalf, but the nature to vote in such a manner is the lesson that can be extrapolated here)

3. You don't read: Aikage was voteless and he GAINED HIS VOTE BACK TODAY CLAIMED TODAY AT THE START OF THE DAY. Want proof?
This is a vote count day 1:

Le Cupcake (1): Untrod Tripod
Lady Lambdadelta (2): Blooderection

nameloc1986 (2): "Fluffy", "Bridget", Aikage

Blooderection (1): mothrax
GandalfIzSik (14): KDub, zwetschenwasser, RayFrost, Fate, ABR, Le Cupcake, Lady Lambdadelta, Exilon, Bunnylover, jenniwren, Nikanor, Beefster, Chronopie, Substrike22, Ythan, jmj3000
Substrike22 (5): Hinduragi, chesskid3, DTMaster, JaBOC, Dekes, GandalfIzSik

Not voting: ZONEACE, nameloc1986

This was Aikage's first post today.

wow i have some good news and bad news, but probably good news!

1. i have my vote now!!!!!!!!!1

2. ythan might not be scum, if my theory about my role is right
3. akr is scum!!

now that we know BE was town, akr's vote onto me at the end of the day is really really scummy. he wanted to get off the mislynch and vote another one! and look today he doesn't even mention me! he says he remembers suspecting beefsteR??? but he had his vote on me yesterday! he doesnt really suspect me, he was just fakin it

Vote: AKR

feels good to do that! now i can finally contribute more.

last night i targeted ythan, since he didn't die my theory is maybe i can only kill bad people and when i target good people good things happen to them. did you get anything psecial last night ythan?

You are streching for arguments to stick on Aikage at this point and that's scummy.

You're not bothering to research your arguments through rereads, and that doesn't reflect well as the person leading this case. A townie would cross check is work. A scum player just looks to insight arguments/fires.

Why aren't you doing this sir?

@BL
1. Aikage explained what he thought his role does, and why he targeted X and Y. He thought Fate and Ythan were scum so he targeted them. He believes that since he targeted Fate he killed him. He believes that his kill is based on hero/not hero. Now ask me something here: Why would Aikage blatantly say that his role must only kill bad guys?

There is only one reason: and I believe that Aikage did target Fate but his role isn't exactly what we think it is.

I bet you that Fate's death and Aikage targetting him was a coincidence and you know what, from Aikage's POV he really think his "kill" is only based on alignment of his target.

Why do I think this? Because he's openly speculating on what his role is. There's no reason for someone to post tidbits of their role and speculate on that.

Now if you look at Aikage's join date and first post (assuming no Alt craziness) he just joined as a newb. What would a newb do with a crazy role? How would this "newb behave"? What if the newb targeted someone and they died, what would they think?

2. The difference between your self meta and Beefster is

he changed his stance entirely from Day 1 to what it was now

. Intimidation is a tactic, but he's using it to force a claim out of someone. That person claimed enough information for the town to go off if he didn't want to full claim in any one's hands (ie. Aikage targeted Fate N1 and Ythan N2, and his action appears to be a kill and maybe only reflects on one's alignment since Ythan didn't die, therefore Ythan is town. Aikage targeted Fate and Ythan because he thought they were scum (therefore his actions are an anti-scum action) and he wants to target AKR).

Everything that you want to know, is there. Aikage

SAID IT

. What more is it that you need to know?

We have list of players, his action, the results, and why. We don't know the specific action, but we know his motives. His motives match with his play all game. It matches with his scum list. That correlation makes Aikage look obv town to me. Aside from his lack luster posting, what he posted has all the information we need on what Aikage thinks of the game.

This is more then half the people in this game. ABR for example has concentrated more energy on proving there is a 3rd scum faction rather then scum hunting and pointing out who's scum in this game.

Aikage looks like gold in comparison to ABR since Aikage gave reads, while ABR actually contributed nothing to this game other then theory discussion

. Remember what KoC said about smokes and mirrors, ABR looks like a culprit of smoke and mirrors in this game, not Aikage's poor posting.

This wagon is silly, and a full role PM claim is retarded since we already have the above information.

If you are seriously thinking someone is scum for claiming he cleared Ythan you are heavily misguided. A scum player doesn't draw attention with unnecessary claims like this. Clearing Ythan is something we take from Aikage's partial claim. Voting him because he "cleared someone" is a kin to voting Nikanor when he "cleared Chess" because he wanted to stop the wagon. You can't do one thing and say another

If anyone voting for Aikage uses the role argument and didn't vote Nikanor for the same thing

deserves serious scum points

[DTMaster]

kso aikage is at L-1 if I counted correctly.

/inb4 quickhammer

Also this post reads like a scum admission. Like srzly, why would you be worried about quick hammers if you believe Aikage is scum?

[DTMaster]

Um no. Nikanor claimed

sane role information

.

Town:
JABOC
Mafuyu
Chesskid
Lambda
DTM

Scum:
mothrax
evilpacman
Ythan
Fate?

I'd like to point out that Ythan has gone from saying, "Flavour is unimportant, so we shouldn't believe claims based on roles," to "His flavour is sub-par," with nobody but me noticing.

I DO IN FACT HAVE SANE ROLE INFORMATION THAT CHESSKID IS TOWN.

Let's lynch Ythan or mothrax instead.

I'm keeping my vote on Ythan, but if people start to pile onto mothrax I'll be glad to switch.

chesskid: Please don't suicide tonight. Your ability will be much more useful post-MC. If you absolutely must suicide tonight, then do so on Cupcake and DTM.

Everyone else filled in the blanks for Nikanor and thought he was a Day cop LL, including you. He took that and included how his day action was not affected by the shift, and he got his pm during the day indicating that Chess is Town.

[DTMaster]

Ihmo if you do a search you won't find a cop claim with Nikanor.

[DTMaster]

LL, please as a cleared Mason

do an actual reread. Don't go based on your assumptions please k thanks

[DTMaster]

I'm not tunneling on AKR. I'm attacking Beefster. I'm also Attacking Mothrax. Oh right I had a case on Dekes that I said I should investigate. Oh and I attacked ABR. And wait a minute I equated that ABR was scummier then Aikage.

Also I'm Defending Aikage and was defending Chrono.

I'm also Arguing with ABR over theory.

What are these tunneling walls of AKR are you so focused on?

[DTMaster]

Just because I mentioned a few posts on AKR recently

doesn't mean I'm tunneling on AKR.

. I'm attacking Beefster. The main focus was on Beefster.

You'd be more politically correct in that I was tunneling on Beefster because I've been ranting about this for the last week. I'm getting ticked off with you LL.

You think my points are valid

. Don't tell me to shutup unless you think I'm a crazy lunatic about this. If you think my points are valid

weigh in on it

. If you noticed by my ratio scum almost has a majority of the town.

This IS NOT THE TIME TO FOLLOW THE TOWN MAJORITY WHEN SCUM ALMOST MAKES UP THAT MAJORITY

. This is the time to think for yourself and HUNT SCUM.

/ rant.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: Refer back to the ratio of town to potential scum I outlined earlier. I mistyped and put ratio scum. Bad Engrish.

[DTMaster]

@AKR
1. If you think Beefster is scum, then you'd think that he's jumping for easy wagons or wagons that are beneficial to scum. Except if you think that Beefster and Aikage are scum

then you should be applying pressure on both fronts because you have conflicted reads

. Why aren't you doing that again?

I could do an ISO read to show how you drop one case for another, but you don't actually analyze conflicted reads. You don't directly say that you see both players as scum. When you validate Beefster, you are indirectly calling him town. You are agreeing with him. When you are against him you criticize his read.

When you think Beefster is scum, but you know his arguments are valid, you attack to find out which read is more accurate (ie if your town read or scum read is stronger). You have not taken any steps to get rid of your conflicted reads other then say: Beefster is scum and now say he's a hard read. This is not a town stance to take on this case. At least it's lazy anti-town of you to not do this, but it can easily tip into scummy mc scumvile.

2. Hey AKR: Remember the initial response to Aikage's claim that was driven by Beefster?

LL, Beef effing READ THIS TOO.

Aikage starts by complaining about his role.
He invokes so much WIFOM.
He appears to be pulling a scum gambit in his most recent post:

i didn claim vig, ebcause im not a vig. im pretty sure i klled fate last night. i targeted him with my action and he died so im guessing my action was a kil last night and there i sno shift. i dont want to say much more beacuse i know claiming is bad for town bc it gievs scum info on what to do it at night. i only claimed this much because people kept saying a vig should kil me!

as for scum be has still not shown up. i think he is lurking so he deosnt have to make posts anymore which might lead us to his buddies. or that he hopes the lynch will not happen bc he is not here and cant claim.

i think Akr voting me is really scummy! i killed scum last nighthow could you vote me? he unvotes be too sohe thinks he can get be saved y trying to get bandwagon on me for twisting my post!

This makes no sense whatsoever.

And BTW DTM: my comment on crosskills was with regards to night 1,

but thanks for bringing Aikage to my attention. I would have missed him otherwise. (due to his lurkiness)

Remember how I reminded people that Aikage claimed the N1 kill, oh right, he claimed it unprovoked here when BE was at L-1 Oh hey gais. Guess what. When we were lynching Gandalf he claimed this in front of Fate's attack with no votes: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1800

This page this post

My apologizes, you weren't on a BE case and you did maintain an Aikage case (which got clarified that night actions did work which was claimed by Nikanor). However, read these claims and the situation surrounding them

Stop and think for a second

WE HAVE AN UN PROVOKED CLAIM AND YOU PEOPLE ARE ATTACKING THE MAN FOR NOT CLAIMING EVERYTHING WHEN HE ORIGINALLY WAS THE PERSON WHO CLAIMED THE INFORMATION IN THE FIRST PLACE. EVERYONE HERE IS CIRCULARIZING THEIR ARGUMENTS WHICH ORIGINATED FROM THE ORIGINAL, UNPROVOKED CLAIM WHICH LEADS INTO THE GUY NOT FULL CLAIMING (FYI LIKE NIKANOR).

So AKR remember that stance with Nikanor, oh yeah, NO ONE SUSPECTED AIKAGE WHEN HE CLAIMED HIS INFORMATION. You know what else? Your suspicion came after the 3rd set of information released when Aikage mentioned his role name. You know what's funny: It wasn't until I mentioned Aikage claimed he might have caused the N1 kill was when Beefster when high strung on the man.

He went and did his tunneling routine when I quoted the claim. This reflects the role argument I mentioned back when Beefster was attacking GIS for being scummy. Specifically when he called out GIS based on his role rather then his gameplay.

See these parallels? I've been nagging over them for a while. Beefster still hasn't given a clear answer to

WHY DID HE CHANGE HIS ORIGINAL STATEMENT OF CALLING GIS SCUMMY TO GIS WAGON WAS A POLICY LYNCH AND IT COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED IF HE CLAIMED EARLIER

.

So this answered the point about Nikanor versus Aikage

because there is no reason in hell a scum-Aikage would choose to draw attention to himself by claiming this "I might have cleared Ythan business"

from what I can read from him. Refer back to his join date, and his multi-part claim where he's very randomly claims information when he's not being attacked.

Heck based on the track record he'd be better off like Zwet since Zwet does nothing and no one talks about him. It makes no sense for Aikage to be scum. It makes more sense to have Newb-Aikage-Ub3r PR being excited about this.

@LL
1. I don't have a BL case because I've been focused on my other cases. If you think BL is scummy shouldn't you bring up a case? I'll give her a reread if that's what you're implying but at the moment BL is sitting in my Null section.

2. A ":monstrous role" at least is confirmed by Exlion since his investigated Kai by targetting you. Exlion got a guilty on Beefster. Then it's a dilemma of: if you believe in Kai/Beef's claim or you don't.

Aside: I'm more inclined to believe Zwet is lying since Kai outright claimed it first and Zwet said yeah that's what he is. He also claimed reflex CPR doc, which would scare away any people with targeting roles to stop him (or draw them in if X person was going to die which would be weird ><).

3. Gohma doesn't have to be scum: You can have a town target which would make Saria a balance for the neighbours for town PR exchange (this would be an inherit balancing since if all the targets are scum you would have diminishing scum PR to increasing town PR which would be terribly skewed for the town) Think about it, assuming all sages are town. You then balance it with town targets and/or scum neighbors who are fake sages.

From a modding POV this is how I would see it.

@Kdub
1. I don't like you answering questions for me. It gives me buddy buddy vibes, like Ythill gets a lot. Also offering a random case is odd, and if I don't find any references to BL in your other posts you totally turned up the scum-dial since you don't make cases on people without believing they are scum.

@BL
1. If you seriously think that Aikage is town

then why are you helping with this wagon?

. Claim or no claim read my point about Aikage above in my AKR stance. If you have conflicted reads don't stand around doing nothing and call people on it. Pressure or not, if you feel stronger about Aikage-town then scum then there is absolutely no reason for him to full claim (ie. You don't draw attention to the person trying to keep part of their role hidden if it's on purpose if they are town).

2. Since scum has a fake role

there wouldn't be a reason for scum to withhold from claiming would there

. With this kind of heat, it'll be just easy for Aikage to claim as scum and carry on. You can see it in reverse. If someone was town and really wanted to hide their role they wouldn't claim because they would want what ever critical part of their role hidden. Since we know that scum do have fake claims,

there's no reason for Aikage to not claim

.

There's more reason for town-Aikage if he's telling the truth to hide his role if he felt it was that important.

Add on with what I said about Aikage and how I feel about the attack gives me a town-newb-read.

Scum dislike the heat. Town don't care because they'd rather take it in the risk vs reward game (ie depending on what it is, it might be more worth it to hide it in their POV).

[DTMaster]

Afiak: I feel like yesterday when I had to fight to derail the LL vs Exlion debate ><;;.

[DTMaster]

On the bus with my phone.

1. BL: I share your sentiments. Ideally I feel that Kdubs analysis on the wagon(as conflicted as my read is on Kdub so I do need to do a reread) is showing that Aikage's partial claim is a hyperinflated issue. There are people (eg Zwet slipping) through the cracks that I would like questioned.

2. In terms of the Shift Analysis that I started by derailing Exlion off LL, it's would be weird for any faction to not agree. I mean if you were scum there is no protown reason to not agree. Ihmo day shift analysis in a way helps scum with day actions so if scum has a day action they would agree so their actions would be used properly.

I commend Beefster for helping.

3. You know, I'm normally not a stickler for self meta but something about Beefs last post reads as someone really trying. Gut reads are tingling hmmm... I agree though a wagon analysis is necessary for the current leaders. Something is off with the voted.

4. As an aside I find it odd that Beef with the voting argument didn't apply it to Aikage since it went up by like 4 votes after the prod.

5. The issue of the Saria slot becomes the neighbourhood's responsibility to address without a claim. We aren't that role so we can only speculate. If our scum list includes that person then we would be helping on the scum hunting front but at the moments the neighbours are the only one who know who that player is to scum hunt. I really hope they are talking in the QT now about this.

I already gave my modding perspective with balance. Ythan couldn suppliment with flavour (did you need to kill an adult boss to unseal Saria I remember reading she was a childhood friend)

6. I believe that Aikage's play is anti town. But overall is not scummy. You can interprete it to be scummy but overall reads as newb play. So my conclusion is you can make your arguments but my town read is strong in that slot. Simillar to my read on Nameloc.

[DTMaster]

Something is off with the votes.

[DTMaster]

Oh god are we just going to systematically attack people who

preemptively partial claimed

because they didn't full claim now ><;;. AKR: Considering

this was from a Day 1 Claim

I'm pretty sure that you can't use the Aikage case and place it on Zwet.

Questioning the claim in this case is ridiculous. Zwet ability claimed, it was not necessary for him to full claim.

Else you are also now going to call Cupcake scummy for not full claiming now and only claimed his shield was an active ability. Or lets attack LL for lying about being Din. Oh wait, they are confirmed masons and what Nikanor did with his gambit was pro-town to get scum to kill themselves ><;;.

Zwet's role isn't suspicious, nor how he handled the initial claim. Those aren't grounds to call him scummy since they're not. His lurking/play style is anti-town, and his lack of posting makes it hard to determine if it's Zwet being Zwet or if he's actually scum. Remember what Rayfrost's assessment on Zwet was? Anti-town element.

AKR gains scum points.

[DTMaster]

Oh right, remember what Nikanor did with PGOs, oh yeah Zwet did what LL didn't and claimed PGO status (as reflexive CPR doc to non-verdant races). V.V. I face palm at this direction AKR is trying to go towards.

[DTMaster]

@Beefster
1. I'm assuming you are referring to the fact that Aikage claimed: "I have an important role, here is my results" but "I didn't to full claim" contradiction you are point at. Did I not mention it earlier?

This is the post you're quoting yourself (correct me if I am wrong)

To explain my position, Aikage claimed "Medigoron" earlier. He says that knowing his role would help the town in understanding his play, but he refuses to claim fully. I'm seeing some scummy inconsistency here.

This was my counter that I addressed to BL. You do know you should read everything in my posts:

2. Since scum has a fake role there wouldn't be a reason for scum to withhold from claiming would there . With this kind of heat, it'll be just easy for Aikage to claim as scum and carry on. You can see it in reverse. If someone was town and really wanted to hide their role they wouldn't claim because they would want what ever critical part of their role hidden. Since we know that scum do have fake claims, there's no reason for Aikage to not claim .

There's more reason for town-Aikage if he's telling the truth to hide his role if he felt it was that important.

This is the pro-town reason because the instinct of survival isn't there.

2. Um my role has a subtle reference that Reck is a big fat fairy (ie slang for being gay). I don't see the issue in that.

Arguing that the mods predetermined the roles is not I repeat not a scum argument. You are speculating on flavour

. This is super off topic and no reason why mods add their own personal jokes into the roles about themselves.

@Moth
1. Aikage wasn't UNDER VOTING PRESSURE. Yes MANY PEOPLE KEPT ON ASKING FOR HIS FULL CLAIM and MANY PEOPLE LIKE ME/NIKANOR/ETC ARE PERPLEXED TO WHY THIS IS SUCH AN ISSUE.

He was under ATTACK FOR NOT CLAIMING AT THE END OF DAY 2 and NOW for not claiming. THIS WAGON IS THE MOST RECENT WAGON to form VOTING PRESSURE. Ihmo if he ever claims.

2. Hell Aikage probably needs to be replaced due to his disappearance. Why is ABR the VOICE OF REASON when I DON'T TRUST THAT MAN TO KEEP A COOKIE SAFE.

If you read my argument that I quoted BL: There is sometimes a reason someone withholds information.

People: If you think the man scum then you're on the right wagon. If you don't think so and ANYONE VOTING SIMPLY BECAUSE HE HAS INFO AND DOESN'T WANT TO SHARE should be shot.

Cupcake/DGB
1. Except Substrike had a fake claim that matched the others according to Chrono. Fake claims would have been provided by the mod in this case, negating any possible side effects from the players. There's no reason for scum to

not claim

. There's more reason for town to

not claim

.

Case: Nikanor. Reward: Dead Scum.

[DTMaster]

@Moth
1. I wonder if Aikage is an alt atm since the only posts he's done are the 19 posts he's done in this game and the last one was on the 29th of November.

Mod: Prod/force replace Aikage

.

2. As an aside if you are going to use the "lurking is a null tell argument is null" you would apply that to Aikage

because there is no evidence for him being on the website since the time of his last post

. Mothrax if you wish me to excuse your earlier play for being "busy" then you also must apply that to Aikage. Even in mid attack.

Doing so is hypocritical of you.

@Beef
3. Except it's not Aikage being "pro-survival". He's doing the opposite. In this case for scum-Aikage he's more inclined to claim to survive. In town Aikage, he's risking lynch which is death) at the moment with his reluctance to claim. I'm not debating on why Aikage should claim to survive, I'm showing you that it's how Aikage handled this claim that makes me read it as a newb risk all situation.

A good case (if I can pull it out I'll find it in Nikanor's wiki) was MrSuave in one of Nikanor's game. He claimed a role that would would get him killed N1 if he chose to claim. As a newb player, he got himself lynched because he was anti-town all game. He flipped

Doctor

. He was at L-1 and claimed that he would die if he claimed (or close to it). If you do that in hindsight you see that MrSuave was hinting at that all game, even though he's being anti-town. He deserved the lynch, but at the same time if you ask yourself the question:

What's the motive in claiming that? It's just easier to claim Doc as scum/town so why be that round about it?

I believe the direction could have become more constructive.

If I apply the newb argument to Aikage (seen by his date of joining the website) it parallels a newb player with an awesome role being anti-town. I'm not missing the point.

You want to know Why Aikage came to the conclusion that Ythan is town and Why Aikage thinks he kills someone. It's not good enough for you to know that Aikage claimed these things. I'm arguing that we don't need to know why because Aikage's claim of the results do not have scum motivation. It would be easier as Aikage-scum to avoid all this drama to act like Zwet.

It's in my gut feeling that this hyper tunneling on the claim is giving multiple people on the wagon easy access to just coast. Aikage is at fault for not doing anything, but I see there are people who are flying under the radar.

3. Chrono claimed that Substrike claimed before most of the Sages. This means that Substrike must have had the claim prepared in advanced to be one of the first people to claim. Conclusion: Fake claim. Otherwise you're calling Chrono a liar then.

[DTMaster]

Also Ythan who's taken a large backseat recently is different from his day 1 play. I dislike this change in Ythan. I can't tell if it's disinterest or simply he's lolozing at the stalling.

[DTMaster]

Since we are stalling I'm going to do a reread of people that I made note of in my other posts. It's something productive to do. I dislike the notion that people must wait on the claim before making decisions. Going to check out the people who're doing that as well.

[DTMaster]

Also Mothrax, do make a judgement call. If Aikage is town then what is your read on me? If Aikage is scum what is your read on me? Don't be vauge about it. I can take the criticism. I'm calling Aikage town, thus I'm defending him. I don't care what you think, if I was playing optimally I would try and get my scum suspects lynched and keep my town reads alive.

[DTMaster]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh... well this did fit with my theory that Aikage didn't actually kill Fate, and that him Targeting Fate was a coincidence.

a. We verify that Aikage's Grudges is somewhat true.
b. Ythan isn't verified to be townie.

Ythan can you verify that Aikage gave you an invention?

I feel like this was a wall of stupid V.V.

[DTMaster]

BL: Aikage gives inventions as claimed. They'd be unknown inventions to what I read.

[DTMaster]

My original working theory was Aikage was going to claim mystery role. >>;; (ie a role where he didn't know his action (s) hence why he thought he could kill people and was speculating in thread).

Aikage: why did you think one of your inventions could kill people?

[DTMaster]

BL: Yeah, that's what I think happened. Ihmo this wasn't what I was expecting ><;;l.

Ythan can confirm if Aikage is an inventor pretty much.

[DTMaster]

I did a quick post check on Ythan. His story checks out.

[DTMaster]

Mannn Beefster are you happy now. Remember what these "contradictions were" when he didn't full claim. Well the reasons for why Aikage thought he could kill and why Aikage targeted Fate/Ythan was obvious pre-claim. /rant.

This doesn't change anything that I've been stressing out all day. >>;;

[DTMaster]

AKR:
1. I find it odd that now that you have Aikage's claim you're not weighing in to his alignment. You were so strongly for this full claim and was ready to do your scum hunting arguments that your "herp derp" stances are really dumb. It's kind of scummy that you're not making town/scum calls based on what you got.

2. I'm curious to what you think of BL. I remember that you called her scummy before

Along comes bunny reeking of scum. Now I've got another person to read.

Oh and read DTM's posts today, those will give you a good summary of the main wagon yesterday. Also, good luck reading a 120 page game. Tip: skip everything before page 60. None of that really matters.

You kind of make these judgement calls without doing anything when BL was being attacked. Where did your case go?

[DTMaster]

FYI: My personal read on BL is that she's trying very hard to understand this game. To me this is giving me town vibes (ie the recent responses are indicators of someone trying hard).

[DTMaster]

Night 2. Aikage claimed he actioned you N2. He actioned Fate N1.

Wait. Why is there conflicting claims here. Aikage claimed that he actioned Ythan (ie. gave an invention) and Ythan didn't receive it. I know where and why the original arguments were flawed. However, Aikage-newb still was adamant about who he targeted. V.V;; It's something to ponder, and multiple explanations to why Ythan said he didn't get an invention.

@AKR
It's not 5 minutes. It's something that has been on your plate since the start of your day when you attacked BL. That's not an excusable reason to brush my attack under the rug because you've "suddenly" got time to post now.

Give me reasons on why you are making these points. Show me how Aikage is town/scum (just like what you did). I shouldn't need to ask you what your reads are based on the claim when you were calling Aikage scum all day. Stating information for the sake of information is scummy since you're blowing hot air. You're demonstrating how uncommitted you are to your cases. Town show more care in their scum hunting. Scum generally don't.

[DTMaster]

Hmm.. I wonder if the shift occurs at night. Nikanor claimed in game that the shift was day-only. Masons can you verify thisÉ

[DTMaster]

Oh you know what I think. It's going to make us face palm. Aikage actioned at night and invalidated everything ><;;;

[DTMaster]

If you think about it, if Aikage tried actioning at night with a day ability... then lols....... oh gawd..... ><;;;.

[DTMaster]

Umm... Beefster like I said

what is new that we learned that I haven't outlined other then Aikage is reading like a 100% idiot for doing a night action with his day action

. There isn't. I was basing my assumption on AIKAGE'S PLAY not his ROLE. His PLAY reads as NEWB. I'M INCORPORATING HIS PR STATUS as a NEWB PLAYER with a PR.

Beefster

why aren't you commenting on Aikage

? Why the fuck aren't you making a judgement call? You sir WON AND GOT AIKAGE TO CLAIM. You sir were pushing for A SCUM CASE on AIKAGE. This is what I'm ANGRY ABOUT. You sir WHO PUSHES FOR A CLAIM DIDN'T BOTHER EVEN READING AND ANALYZING YOUR HARD EARNED RESULTS THAT I ALREADY POSTED IN THREAD 2 WEEKS AGO.

YOU SIR ARE SO WORRIED ABOUT WHAT AIKAGE'S ROLE IS THAT YOU IGNORE THE IMPLICATIONS ON WHY AIKAGE DID HIS ACTIONS. YOU SIR IGNORED THE KEY POINTS IN MY DEFENSE THAT SHOWED AIKAGE WAS BEHAVING IDIOTICALLY ALL GAME.

Oh wait, YOU NEEDED A FULL CLAIM TO DO THAT. You IGNORED MY ANALYSIS ABOUT HIS MOTIVES BECAUSE HE BEHAVED LIKE A NEWB. YOU SAID MY POINTS WERE INVALIDATED BECAUSE AIKAGE CHOSE NOT TO CLAIM AND THIS INFORMATION WAS REQUIRED. RIGHT NOW YOU LOOK LIKE SCUM PUSHING FOR A CLAIM. MAKE YOUR FINAL JUDGEMENT CALL.

I FUCKING DID NOT JUDGE THE QUESTION. I ANSWERED IT. I SAID THAT AIKAGE NEWB PR TOWN WOULD NOT CLAIM BECAUSE HE FELT THAT IT WAS MORE IMPORTANT FOR TOWN TO NOT KNOW. LIKE WITH MR SUAVE HE FELT THAT HIS PARTIAL CLAIM WAS OBVIOUS ENOUGH TO SHOW HE WAS A DOC. HE FELT THAT IF HE REVEALED HE WAS A DOC IT WOULD BE DETRIMENTAL TO THE TOWN. AS SCUM YOU WOULD NOT BEAT AROUND A DEAD BUSH WITH FAKE CLAIMS. IF YOU HAVE A FAKE CLAIM YOU WOULD CLAIM AND IN A WORST CASE SCENARIO CLAIM TO GET PRS TO COUNTER CLAIM YOU SO THAT YOU CAN KILL THEM.

AIKAGE CLAIMED ALL NECESSARY INFORMATION. HE DOES NOT NEED TO FULL CLAIM. YOU CAN READ THE MOTIVES ON WHY HE ACTIONED THESE PEOPLE. IF YOU COMBINE THE TWO IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR THE FULL CLAIM BECAUSE WE ALREADY UNDERSTAND THESE FUCKING MOTIVES.

YOU KNOW WHY AIKAGE TARGETED FATE.
YOU KNOW WHY AIKAGE TARGETED YTHAN.
YOU KNOW WHY AIKAGE THOUGHT HE KILLED FATE.
YOU KNOW WHAT AIKAGE DID.
YOU KNOW WHO AIKAGE THINKS IS SCUM.

THIS IS BEFORE THE CLAIM. WHAT CAME AFTER?

WE KNOW AIKAGE'S ACTIONS don't have the CONCLUSIONS WE WANTED
WE KNOW AIKAGE NIGHT ACTIONED WITH A DAY ACTION
WE KNOW THAT THERE IS A HIGH LEVEL OF STUPIDITY THAT WENT ON EITHER IN THIS CLAIM OR WITH THE PLAYER.

WHAT THE FUCK. WHAT MOTIVE WAS SO IMPORTANT THAT YOU COULDN'T READ?

[DTMaster]

OMG REAG. I'm going to cool off. Beefster in all that work and with the claim and you fucking didn't analyze Aikage your scum target you are digging your own hole in priorties. YOU GOT THE CLAIM YOU WANTED, NOW DO SOMETHING OR DIE. I already gave my reads all day. Way to scum hunt. Wagon this man.

AKR needs to die for the same crime. I can go either way.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: You know why Aikage claimed Ythan. I can pull quotes. I can show you what Aikage concluded.

The claim filled in what we know:

Preclaim: Aikage believed his action killed Fate thus he kills anti town. Aikage used this action on Ythan and he lived, thus he is town.
Post claim: Aikage used an invention that he thinks kills someone. He thought he killed fate, thus he thinks this invention kills anti-town players. He targeted Ythan with the invention and he lived. Thus Ythan is town.

What we now know: Aikage's actions are day actions. If Aikage was ub3r newb it would explain everything he did AND, I repeat AND that he did believe he targeted at night when he didn't do anything.

[DTMaster]

Preclaim: Aikage believes that Fate is scum which is why he used an action on him. Since he found that this action "could kill" since Fate died, thus he tried to kill Ythan who he thought was scum.

Post claim: Replace action with invention.

What we know: The kill on Fate was done by someone else. It's possibly be a result of a cross kill, etc, etc, etc <insert your idea here>. Aikage didn't actually action.

[DTMaster]

Ewww....... this AKR joining in this thought wagon makes me very sullied. Why haven't you completed your reads on the players that I requested AKR? Do you see them as scum? Town? etc?

[DTMaster]

What changed your original scum read to just "middle of the road" huh?

[DTMaster]

Sorry been busy. Recent comments.

1. I dislike the KoC votes because KoC is acting like the devil's advocate. Ihmo he's doing a ton better then half the player list (eg. Beef/AKR/ABR) in regards to talking about Aikage. If I didn't suspect highly fowl noob play: The guy claiming a day action that he tried to use at night wouldn't sit well with me since

a. It's true you'd expect weird mod warnings the first time he tried actioning at night.
b. You don't usually associate an invention with a killing action.
c. You don't usually associate the killing action to be based on faction.

Ihmo KoC is using normal logic and being critical. I think he's wrong, but I don't think he's scum because of it.

2. As much as I HATE BEEF for the lack of Aikage comments, and I had to do all the bloody work pre/post claim in regards to the Aikage case, the nameloc thing reads as town brownie points.

It bothers me that Beef didn't try this earlier today when I mentioned Nameloc/Senfans would be a danger to the town

. The timing of my attack to the sudden shift to "lets try and get rid of Nameloc votes" is terrible in my opinion. It's like a giant smoke screen.

However I do dislike some members of the wagon on Beef and find them increasingly more scummy then Beef "cough" AKR "cough".

You're not off the hook Beef. You were adamant about this claim that you didn't finish the job in finalizing your case analysis.

You are using my work and saying: Everything is done. I had to ask you what your view was to get the: everything is said quote and even then you don't even weigh in on Aikage's alignment.

.

How you handled the case, and the transition to "stop the Nameloc votes" is terrible. Awful. You didn't show a care in the world for 3 whole days, nor did you show a care about Nameloc/Senfans till now.

All I read is someone who's fishing for townie points now.

3. Cupcake: Explain this BL case because I just don't get it.

4. AKR explain your other cases. Or die in a fire. You're following popular trend again and I dislike this.

Ihmo AKR is the superior wagon. My mind is set and at least I got something out of Beef. Superior AKR wagon is a go.

Unvote, Vote: AKR

[DTMaster]

In fact, the half of people who dispersed from Aikage's wagon that are now using my arguments I dislike so terribly much. There's hardly any original thinkesr in this crowd. i.e. Too many sheeps and scum hiding under this guise.

[DTMaster]

Akr your excuse that you're too busy holds no water if you are able to keep up with current scum hunting/voting trends. At this point you're just being scummy. Implore everyone to reread AKR in iso and in context to see the huge trend where he deflects my question but is still able to form opinions on the bandwagon.

Edit. Errr um. There is quite a lot wrong from the transition of Akr scum to Akr town to Akr scum Aikage. I need to reread but arrrrg that post was weird.

Also while I believe AKR and Beef are scum, I don't believe one player clears the other. Each person has been individually scummy. I think we have a case of scum on scum action here from the diffrent factions.

Beefster is a more complicated read. Akr is just reading as scummy.

[DTMaster]

1. ABR: Putting KoC at L-1 is just as bad as 80% of the votes on Aikage. However since the majority of players have decided the wagon isn't viable, it's sub-optimal to put yourself on the spot light to attack Aikage.

So I dislike the vote, but I see the push in this direction. Besides, KoC provided

legitimate reasons for his concern

and they are just as valid as my hypo-newb theory. Unlike Mothrax who's pulling claim quotes to show scum slips (Ihmo which is weird in itself), he's doing the Kdub method and analyzing the method and general logistics of Aikage failing to submit correct actions.

The sudden drop out and shift to KoC/Beef also gives me the willys (but we are dealing with multiple factions).

Ihmo KoC is actually doing something by being agressive with his questioning. Mothrax is in la la land with the PM quoting (which I find it odd he's able to pull out what he know is a scum PM since none of the neighbours could figure out what was wrong with Substrike's PM. Only scum should find out what's in a scum PM at this point. I'm unaware that we discussed in thread about how Substrike's claim was debunked in hindsight) Kdub is passively doing something.

KoC is ranking above the current anti-Aikage wagon based on play alone.

2.Beef: BE explains the Cukoo kill on JMJ and attempted kill on Cupcake. Also he stole the vote from Substrike. Unless you're telling me we have a screw ball, I don't understand what purpose it would be to not:

a. They could frame the masons by making Nikanor scum. Unless you think it's in reverse. ><;;
b. They coordinated a vote steal, and 2 kills with cukoo flavour just cause and put it all on BE.

And finally: Since when did the flips show that we got rid of the shifting player ><;;;. None of the flips show a role that could be involved with the flip. So it stands to reason that we still have the day shift. DURHHHH.

BE was our day vig. Not our shifter. He was a REDIRECTOR which is an entirely different role to OZMODAR SHIFTER.

[DTMaster]

1. Beefster. I'm going to go very, very, very, very slowly for you to comprehend how I know the shift was in the game and how your theory is full of crap because it's unlikely.

a. BE was the Cukoo killer because of the following posts made by Dramonic. THIS IS MOD CONFIRMED INFORMATION DONE THROUGH FLAVOUR YOU IDIOT.

Again, the moon begins to rise before the citizen of Hyrule can make a decision. After countless hours of deliberation, a verdict finally falls.

The townpeople slowly form a circle around the one you've agreed as a group is the most likely to be behind the trouble brewing in Hyrule.

His dark, black eyes, his red crest, his blue feathers...

Yes, together, they've establish that of all the evil forces that could remain in this land, the most dangerous one is quite obviously Cojiro the blue Cucco.

He doesn't put up any defense as a gigantic hand tightens around his neck. The second before his spine is snapped in half, he shoots a final "Cucco".

In the giant's other hand, an egg hatches in response to the call. The small cucco inside responds with a shrieking cluck. Instantly, the white fowls are upon Biggoron, attacking every inch of rocky flesh, plucking at his eyes, sinking their talons in whatever they can grab. Before anyone can do anything, the giant falls to his knees, his body covered in coutless wounds.

Of course, the chicken was a mostly innocent bystander in this complete mess. The same can be said for the gentle Giant. All he wanted to do was help everybody by giving them strange and special items.

Blooderection [COJIRO],

Secret Cucco Caller AKA Post-Powered Redirector Compulsive Vigilante Vote-stealer

, lynched day 2
JMJ3000 [BIGGORON],

One-Shot Unlynchable Blind Inventor

, mauled to death day 2

It is now night 2. Deadline is 72 hours from this post

Compare it to the vote steal

You'd think people would learn from previous experiences...
Anyways, you continue to toss around ideas about who could be the villains in Hyrule so that you can finally get a night of rest, even though it isn't even 9 AM yet. The bickering is incessant, but suddenly everyone stops talking.

There's a Cucco just staring at everyone.

"Hey guys, I think one of the Cuccos got lost!"
"Isn't it cute, here chicky chicky!"
"Don't taunt the chicken, it's dangerous!"

And that last person is kinda right. After staring intensely at each of you, the Cucco spread its wings and jumps on

Substrike22

.
He tries to defend himself, but it's no use and the Cucco decides to firmly attach itself to his head.
...With a Cucco on the head, let's just say he's not very credible...

Substrike has a Cucco on his head!
Back to the game!

And the attack on Cupcake

You'd think people arguing in the great plains of Hyrule would attract monsters...
Anyways, you argue loudly about how obviously the one going under the pseudonym of "Chesskid" is horribly suspicious.
As representative of all races bicker frantically, one of you turn and see...

"Hey... what's that big cloud?"
"I... don't think that's a cloud..."
"Oh my god... HYSTERIC CUCCO FLOCK, RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"

As all of you scatter in order to avoid the threat of CHICKENS,

Le Cupcake

trips.
Upon seconds, the Cuccos are upon him, doing what Cuccos do best:
...Vanish in flashy blue particles?

Nothing Happens!
Back to the game!

Ihmo Read the words where DRAMONIC says BE calls out the "final word as Cucoo". I bolded it for you person who refuses to read to make his arguments.

b. None of the roles shows something involved with a shifting role (ie like Ozmador which was the role in MIND SCREW 4). Therefore the shift would be in the game. I don't understand why you are suprized.

c. The reason why I didn't bring up that the shift was still on because I assumed it was common knowledge. Do you understand what a redirector is? No apparently not.

Read this link http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Redirector

Read this quote from the Wiki itself. Go back to basics and relearn your roles.

The Redirector is a role that changes the target of another player's night action to a player of the redirector's choice.

Read what BE was. Now add in the post-based in front to add on some condition to his redirection power.

Therefore logically: BE also had a power to redirect based on posts and/or post numbers. DURP. I GOT THAT BY READING THIS LINE:

Post-Powered Redirector Compulsive Vigilante Vote-Stealer

and understanding what the REDIRECTOR ROLE does from experience.

Herp derp more please I'm tired of this "you know too much nonsense" when everything is within reach inside the fucking thread when you read it.

Plus you're ignoring my points on you Beefster. Why?

[DTMaster]

1. Mothrax. I'm confused to how you saw the PM to be doctored. Do a PM comparison with one claimed in town or pull apart specific lines. You said that if you removed the last line it wouldn't be a town PM and I don't see it.

If the line was there and makes it a valid PM then why were you pushing this doctored argument?

PS: The logic leap isn't that huge. You said the PM looks fake. Ihmo therefore you think Aikage slipped by showing us a doctored PM but you know where it was. Also I was saying that only scum would know what a "scum PM is". What we would know is what doesn't look like town which is pretty different. You clearly stated as quoted:

This flavor doesn't sit right with me. Take away the last sentence and it is a scum role pm....

How do you know it's a scum PM mothrax? Why can you compare this claim to something representative as scum to call it close to a scum PM? Only scum can do a direct comparison like this to call out: "This is a scum PM".

Town would say: "This doesn't look like a town PM and this looks fake".

Thus this reads like a slip from you since only scum could compare their PMs and say: Oh look this looks like a scum PM. Town would go: Oh look, this doesn't match with my PM so this must be scum!.

If you're saying that Aikage didn't scum-slip in his PM then your argument has no water. Then why make it in the first place?

[DTMaster]

Oh missed that to ignore response to bolded. Derped I didn't read in the ultimate irony lol. :p

[DTMaster]

Also in this themed game every single role has been multi roles.

11. GandalfIzSik [SKULL KID], Bulletproof Area of Effect Magnet, lynched D1
1. Untrod Tripod [GREAT DEKU TREE], Tunnel-Visioned Devolving-Cop Modified Supersaint, killed N1
3. Fate [KOUME], Fire Witch Lover Copblocker Plant-Killer, killed N1
8. Just A Bit Off-Center [KOTAKE], Ice Witch Lover Jailkeeper Water-Killer, committed suicide N1
10. Blooderection [COJIRO], Secret Cucco Caller aka Post-Powered Redirector Compulsive Vigilante Vote-Stealer, lynched D2
5. JMJ3000 [BIGGORON], One-Shot Unlynchable Blind Inventor, mauled to death D2
7. Exilon [ZELDA/SHEIK], Night Stalking Boss Daycop, killed N2
17. RayFrost [RUTO], Sealed Water Sage aka Super Commuter Temporary Lovestriking Sage, killed N2
22. Substrike22 [BETH], Poe Cheating Even-Night Strongman, killed N2
4. Nikanor [DIN], Goddess Mason Non-Water Paranoid Gun Owner, killed N2
24. chesskid3 [KING ZORA], Double Suicide-Bombing Vanillaizer, sacrificed himself N2

I don't understand why BE's super long role such a stretch when we had all of these multi roles. Nikanor's role is true IHMO being a Mason and a PGO. Why can't BE's role be true to all three when we know they are all Cucoo derived and Dram posted public flavour for that.

[DTMaster]

I'm confused. Where exactly? I mean the flavour fits perfectly with the whole idea of: Anti-town town PR role with his Grudges and Walls ability that it reads fine to me.

[DTMaster]

Even if you removed the last sentence the whole comparison to your brother works in that context. CEBM had that with the souls

Please keep silent, big brother.

Welcome to Cross Edge Bastard Hell, Benmage. You are Cece, Mature Child. You are the middle child and the most collected of the trio. Politics and diplomacy are your forte, and you'd rather this resolve with no conflicts.

Race: Soul
Faction: Order

You are a Soul Empowerer Neighbor. You have the following special abilities:

Passive Abilities:
Pure Soul - Being born from this world, you do not possess a real body. As such, actions that would only affected defeated players will work on you even while you are alive.
Family Affairs - You are in a neighborhood with Vivi (Faraday) and Mimi (Kise).


Active Abilities:
Registration - Each day, you may choose a target. Anything messing with your target's actions will be nulled for 2 phases.

Ultimate:
Ultimate: Catastrophe (Passive) - If both your siblings are dead, you gain a daykill ability
Cost: None, losing your family is already sad enough!

Please remember that you can use only one active ability per day.

Family Affairs:

Win Condition (Order): You win when all threats have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm via return PM.

The topic is here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14592&start=0

Is that it? You really ARE pathetic!

Welcome to Cross Edge Bastard Hell, Kise. You are Mimi, Sadistic Child. You are the youngest kid and the most impulsive of the trio. Politics and diplomacy are boring, let's just fight some people and get it over with!

Race: Soul
Faction: Order

You are a Soul Lightning Neighbor. You have the following special abilities:

Passive Abilities:
Pure Soul - Being born from this world, you do not possess a real body. As such, actions that would only affected defeated players will work on you even while you are alive.
Family Affairs - You are in a neighborhood with Vivi (Faraday) and Cece (Benmage).
Sadism - If you are not part of a lynching wagon, you will grow bored.

Active Abilities:
Provoke - Each night, you may taunt someone. Their action will be redirected to you.

Ultimate:
Ultimate: ??? (One-Shot) - The more bored you are...
Cost: If Vivi is alive, he is destroyed. If Cece is alive, you are destroyed. Those are mutually inclusive.

Please remember that you can use only one active ability per day.

Family Affairs:

Win Condition (Order): You win when all threats have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm via return PM.

The topic is here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14592&start=0

-I'm sorry...

Welcome to Cross Edge Bastard Hell, Faraday. You are Vivi, Empyreal Vessel. You are the eldest kid and the most shy of the trio. You are also the only one capable of communicating with the Empyreal One.

Race: Soul
Faction: Order

You are a Soul Bodyguard Neighbor. You have the following special abilities:

Passive Abilities:
Pure Soul - Being born from this world, you do not possess a real body. As such, actions that would only affected defeated players will work on you even while you are alive.
Family Affairs - You are in a neighborhood with Mimi (Kise) and Cece (Benmage).
Confidante - You are in a neighborhood with Judas (Chronopie).
Vessel - You are in a neighborhood with the Empyreal One (xRECKONERx).

Active Abilities:
Sacrifice - Each night, you may protect someone from harm. If they would be killed/destroyed, you will be destroyed instead.

Ultimate:
Ultimate: ??? (Passive) - Your ultimate will trigger if you die while protecting one of your siblings.
Cost: Your death is irremediable.

Please remember that you can use only one active ability per day.

Family Affairs:
Confidante:
Vessel:

Win Condition (Order): You win when all threats have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm via return PM.

The topic is here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14592&start=0

Aside from Faraday turning his alignment to SK, Kise's could die based on which of his siblings were alive. And Benmage gained a Day kill when his siblings died. So this role parallels elements from CEBM.

[DTMaster]

Ihmo the flavour works best as a lyncher if you seriously are arguing for that. But even then lynchers become town if their target isn't killed due to them. (My role in Gods and Men since someone else killed my target. As a lyncher I become confirmed town).

[DTMaster]

1. Riiight. Because not understanding what your role should be giving off bad vibes VP. /sarcasm.

In this situation the best thing to do is ask the mod for a force replacement, but from a games perspective, even though Aikage is newb, it's not fair to the player. The town decides. I wouldn't mind a force replacement and would rather set Aikage with a newbie game so he can understand what's happening better.

Aikage next time: join a newbie thread game to get used to it. Theme games are at the other end where players are expected to have experience.

Newb reads shouldn't give off bad reads VP. That's just scummy man.

I'd rather take this obv read and put it in my town reads list and do something about who I think is scum.

[DTMaster]

1. DGB: Hun, you're not the DGB that I know. WHERE IS THE PASSION to TRAP SCUM IN EPIC GAMBITS :V.

2. Beefster:

a. Here's a thought

since when did BE had to use redirection?

. Do you know what a compulsive vig is? It means that BE had to use his vig powers or it'll be done automatically. Basically unless he uses it, it does an auto kill.

Do you know what else? That means that his vote steal and redirection probably aren't auto actions so beefster would have to input it manually. They don't have the compulsive tag attached to them.
Do you know what else? Beefster might have used his redirection powers and we don't know it because we don't have a full action claim. You know what else in a game of non-vanillias, Beefster could gave redirected people for the first night (or days) and we wouldn't know it unless we claimed it.

I'll believe you if, I mean IF WE HAVE A MAFIA SCREW BALL FLIP (that's the role that changes the flips) or some derivative of that.

In this non-bastard game. That Dram/Reck said it was. Lolz.

b. It also works as a vote shifter (and can be applied to it - Ozmodar shifter). Also I got mod confirmed information about it in thread when Dram/Reck said that role wouldn't be explicit when flipped (at least in the role: Ozmodar shifter).

c. Beefster

you fucking agree with me after Aikage claimed

. Oh wait you know why? I did a Post by Post analysis on Aikage to determine his motive. You when: NO U I NEED A CLAIM. When the claim came around you shut up and when pressed on it you went: I AGREE WITH U K!

You see why I have an issue with you? You're not scum hunting. Right now you freaked out there's a shift still because I pointed out a redirector redirects A TARGET'S ACTIONs and not on a WHOLE WIDE PLAYER LIST.

Beefster why aren't you doing the things: Scum read. Case. Vote. Beefster is still a superior wagon.

d. This point you missed:

2. As much as I HATE BEEF for the lack of Aikage comments, and I had to do all the bloody work pre/post claim in regards to the Aikage case, the nameloc thing reads as town brownie points.

It bothers me that Beef didn't try this earlier today when I mentioned Nameloc/Senfans would be a danger to the town . The timing of my attack to the sudden shift to "lets try and get rid of Nameloc votes" is terrible in my opinion. It's like a giant smoke screen.

However I do dislike some members of the wagon on Beef and find them increasingly more scummy then Beef "cough" AKR "cough".

You're not off the hook Beef. You were adamant about this claim that you didn't finish the job in finalizing your case analysis. You are using my work and saying: Everything is done. I had to ask you what your view was to get the: everything is said quote and even then you don't even weigh in on Aikage's alignment. .

How you handled the case, and the transition to "stop the Nameloc votes" is terrible. Awful. You didn't show a care in the world for 3 whole days, nor did you show a care about Nameloc/Senfans till now.

All I read is someone who's fishing for townie points now.

[DTMaster]

Ihmo Kdub: Aikage's invention will go haywire and be shifted. I'd rather have Aikage give an invention and then the person who received claim it if you really, really want to role confirm him

Then Beefster can try and get rid of Senfan's self votes since we know the shift on the first try.

Then lynch a scum case.

"glares at AKR"

[DTMaster]

Also a DGB sheep is scary. A DGB rabid wolf pack leader is what I expect.

[DTMaster]

1. Beef: No I think your case is still valid. You are a scum read / conflicted scum read to me. However you are ability proven. Think of it like this:

If an SK was caught I would advocate to keep an SK alive and direct his kills. If he fails to follow the town, instant lynch. It's not the exact case with you. If you are town you would agree since having 5 self votes is bad. If you are scum and refuse or do anything to disrupt it, then you'll be caught and be instantly hung. FYI: You're ability proven, that much is true.

You were saying that you would remove the self votes. But after you found the shift you stopped your rolling attacks in addition to the points I drew earlier. You could try and do blind luck, even just find the shift.

See how you teeter-toter like you're trying to help the town, but you don't do anything? Yeah, hardly town. AKR is a stronger scum read at the moment. You're still scummy.

I'd lynch both of you.

2. Beef: You can respond as a defense. If you agree with what I post, then you understand why I find you scummy. If you understand why I find you scummy. Then you know that your case is valid. Or you know, could do what I said and post a scum case. You haven't been scum hunting. All you've been doing is "AIKAGE CLAIM. URP DERP DTM SAID EVERYTHING POST CLAIM. ROLL ATTACK TO STOP THE SELF VOTES. UP DERP SHIFT. ATTACK DTM SINCE HE LOOKS LIKE HE KNOWS TOO MUCH. HERP DERP. I AGREE WITH HIM."

I've been pressuring you to see if you would grow a pair and scum hunt. But you haven't. I could care less on who you moved on since I was looking for some effort in scum hunting. If you're not willing to do that, then you can't be town. Scum coasts. Town when they reach a road block look over their notes/do rereads.

3. Kdub: Actually that means Beefster is the only real time solution to determine the shift. Either way, Aikage should try to give someone an invention.

4. Town: Decide nao. AKR is my choice. I'd swing to a Beef wagon (ihmo since I started it), but AKR is actively ignoring me. Beefster actually responded to me. I'm willing to look further on the Beef case tomorrow. AKR needs to hang. Beef needs to hang.

They both need to hang. This will set off weirdness in the VC analysis (since AKR finds Beefster scum) since both players to me are scum. Classic case of one scum sheeping the leading wagon, and it happens to be another scum.

5. I would really like a deadline extension :<. Our votes are all over the place. If it looks like the AKR wagon doesn't take off later tonight I'll go back to my original case.

I have doubts and require time for my paranoia to settle down.

[DTMaster]

Vla till Saturday. That means I'll miss the deadline due to finals. I'll maintain my AKR vote. Also I like KoC in the KoC/BL debate.

[DTMaster]

My apologies. I won't be able to post later tonight. However based on the flips this makes me go D:. I gave the newb card to the SK. But I don't regret it since I really thought he was a newb.

However this brings light to a few things assuming Aikage was telling the truth that I rather not go into (aka - Inference with roles).

Aside from the cross kills, with 2 sages being confirmed unsealed and 2 masons being alive, we have 4 people to do Point of Order. Ideally I would prefer 5 people confirmed (ie masons and unsealed sages) but as an idea we can do is have the unsealed sages and Masons be voting bloc and we systematically lynch outside of that bloc due to Point of Order.

This confirms that orange is the serial killer. Based on that

and the main assumption that they were bosses, I would acutally next suspect the people who said that the orange players were the serial killer based on the fact that the actual boss faction was jsut unearthed and they are the best people who could make the distinction against yellow/purple scum

Self note to reread for this.

Finally I want AKR dead. I have to go a back to work so I'll respond to his response when I'm at home but I have meaningful questions for AKR.

Vote AKR

. This is the superior wagon.

[DTMaster]

As of now I declare Chrono/LL/Cupcake to be the trio of super triforce powarz.

[DTMaster]

Oh.. V.V. Beef can you pull out a case other then what you agree with me and that you think I know too much

despite me posting quotes and links to where I supported my arguments

. I don't quite understand the case.

Plus you're not scum hunting when you're not questioning me. Question plz k thnks.

[DTMaster]

Also I assume Kdub cooould be the shifter. Beef could test it via rolling attack. A redirector is what I've shown so I don't think so (based on what the roles that cause global shift did flip in Mindscrew 4),