Hydra Mafia (Day 4, I can't think of a clever title!)

[Chimaira]

Okay finally.

/Confirm.

Real post soon

[Chimaira]

1. Your hydra name/pair (If you so wish)
2. Lynch all Liars/Lynch all Lurkers?
3. Do you think meta will help in this game?
4. If you had to lynch one person right now who would it be, why?
5. Timezone/how active each of you expect to be.
6. Your favorite role?

~Tom

1. My hyrda partner was very much against claiming who we were in thread. Personally I don't care, I don't think it matters. I will respect their wishes for now though and stay quiet on that matter. Pretty sure it will come out in the end anyway.

2. I like a little combo of both. I'm not much of a policy lyncher, prefer to go in other directions. It would depend on how bad the lurking was (active or flake?) and how bad the lie was.

3. Not really. Being in a hydra is very different than playing by yourself. If anything meta might be a bit of a red herring. Hydra partners compensate in many different ways, I doubt I will be looking at meta in this one at all.

4. I'd say bv311 for being picking an annoying name and avatar, I'm easily confused by things like that. But by the time I read the rest of this thread I expect to have a better place and reason for my vote.

5. I'm in CST and I should be pretty active. I don't know about my partner. We haven't spoken for awhile. They might have forgotten the game is going on since it took forever to have our account validated.

6. Townie.

The rest of this game is just blagh for me. The thread never should have been opened before all accounts were active and now I feel like I need to make some epic statement just to get comfortable in here.

I will say Smith v Crab is just ridiculous. Do either of you think the other is scum? If not you are needlessly clogging up the thread for people like me who were late to the party.

I'm gonna go ahead and

Vote: TomandJerry

For posting questions and not actually answering themselves. The rest of the thread is a blur and I will probably try and read it again later.

[Chimaira]

Cut by Chimaira - why are you not voting who you would want to lynch right now? How useful do you deem the TAJ questions?

The bv thing is personal really. If I just voted for people who were being pricks I'd never get to the scum hunting.

As for the questions I'd say in this kind of game they are a reasonable way to get basic info on the hydra's. But why submit them and not answer them yourself? There seemed to be a slight disconnect there. Do they not think the questions are worth answering? If so, why ask them.

I couldn't get much of a read on anyone else so I figure this is a good place to start.

[Chimaira]

I am not going to nameclaim. For me the fun of the game is not knowing each other.
but there is absolutely no town reason I could see for fakeclaiming. the only times I have seen someone fakeclaim something (I'm not talking about roles here, of course) they were scum.

Chimaira is town.

what makes you think that?

I also think PP's "town-tells" in posts 172/173 are scummy. I see no reason town would go and call three people town like that, except in a sort of find-scum-by-elimination-thing.

VOTE: Professor Paradox

[Chimaira]

It is noted that TnJ decided to ignore our initial vote and wondering about their questions. I don't understand why they would do that. I second MasterSpy's questioning of them surrounding all that. I want an answer.

PP fake claiming does nothing but throw confusion into the town, if it was done for reactions the hydra needs to come in here and explain which reactions they got. Basically doing something for the lulz when serious discussion has started just looks like a distraction play to me. If you aren't going to follow it up with some scum hunting (saying so-and-so is town with no reasoning doesn't count) then I find it scummy.

Pineapple, can you not answer in quotes? It's annoying as all hell and makes the thread a hard read.

Happy to keep our vote on PP.

[Chimaira]

So one half of this hydra is Sotty. Hi. I have made all the posts so far bar one, (the initial vote on PP). I have being having a disagreement with my hydra head over coming out in thread and have reached a comprise, in that I just won't tell who my other half is. I prefer to just be as open as possible, they want to play it a different way, cool by me. This is another reason I haven't really settled into this game yet, but hopefully now we have reached a settlement I can just plow away.

Anticipating the next question, no Oj, I'm not scum. Cross my heart.

= = = = = = =

The last line of one of you're earlier posts where you said you had no reads or something, I'll go find it.
What's wrong with calling 3 people town?
Have you ever played with me (Ellibereth) before?

That's cause this post was made by my other head. We are having this discussion in our hydra QT (town reads)so I will highlight this to make sure they come and answer you.

I don't actually remember if I have played with you before Elli. I initially typed in yes but then I couldn't remember any specific games. I think I am just familiar with your meta because you have played a few games with my other half in real life (Zachrulez)

Fakenameclaim was for fun.
Reactions would have just been side effect.
I don't think there's anything anti-town about it, the few short moments of confusion is easily cleared up.
As for analyzing the reactions...other than T/J town I'll let other people do those for now... >.>

It was your gambit, you need to do the leg work. You're right about the confusion being easily cleared up but I don't see you building any reads off this. One, without explanation isn't quite cutting it.

= = = = = =

@Master Spy and Chimaira

Why is it so important for me to answer my questions? I thought it was fairly obvious now that it was a part of my trap to lull Prof into reacting. A combo of being lazy and not thinking it was that important at the time was a part of not answering the questions.

Wait, what? You posted those questions as a specific trap for PP to fake claim? Or as a general trap?

If it is the latter, how did you know that would be PP's reaction? If it is the former explain to me how those questions work as a trap. I also want to know the results of said trap.

= = = = =

From a scum perspective they know their own members and thus know what players out there are most likely to be dangerous to them. As an example – Sotty was able to more or less nail Zachrulez in /invitiational 8 simply because she knew his playstyle so well. Scum are going to know those players who can read them as scum the best, if those players exist in the game. So going for a full name-claim lays the information out there.

1) Scum have already probably figured out who everyone is based on slips at this point. They had much less of the player list to figure out from the start, so leveling the playing field is a good thing. More information for town is a good thing. 2) The situation of Sotty figuring out Zach is essentially irrelevant since they are MARRIED in real life and know each other better than almost any two other scummers on this board could. I'm sure if I lived with someone I could tell if they were lying right away too. Plus Zach has a fairly distinctive scum style.

I agree with Crab here.

I mean, there are only one player on this board I am extremely comfortable to vote for on meta alone, that's Zach. With anyone else, meta will play a role, but not a huge one. I don't think many players could claim knowledge of meta about another that I can claim with Zach. I don't try and pass that off on other players either.

= = = = = =

Okay so I have a situation.

I see a few people questioning my partner calling people town is a scum tell. I didn't agree with his post and told him so but I'm not going to come in here and scream blue bloody murder about it simply because I hate it when hydra heads disagree. As a player I throw out town and scum reads a lot so this is an awkward place for me to be in.

I will say my QT buddy said that this is his experience of people doing it. So I assume he has meta to back it up. I can't really say much more in defense of them just that I don't think they have a ton of experience, especially with some of the players on this list.

So yeah, my buddy will have to come in here and explain himself. We're not ignoring this, but this is why I can't answer these questions. I will bug them until they do however.

[Chimaira]

Ok, I am Sotty's other hydra head.
Unluckily, we are currently not agreeing on our reads.

The last line of one of you're earlier posts where you said you had no reads or something, I'll go find it.

What about that line made you think we are town?

What's wrong with calling 3 people town?

1. yes, I have played with Ellibereth before.
2. as to the call-people-town-thing:
a) there is no pro-town reason to do so:
-> If said players are not being attacked in that moment, you throwing out a town read is not going to do anything
-> If those players are being attacked in that moment, if you do not explain why you think they are town, you are not helping either
-> it does not help scumhunt, since there are too many players left and you are not going to find scum by elimination
-> It tells scum who you think town is, which is usually not good, as they can pick NK-targets better
b) there are scum-reasons to do so:
-> you buddy up to players, hoping they won't attack you
-> you post "reads", while actually not posting nothing of content. Therefore, you

look

pro-town, or at least attempt to do so.

==================

Second it's obvious that despite how much FourTigers thinks meta is useful, I'm fairly certain he has not checked Lateralus's meta to verify his identity after my accusation. If he did he would see these after a quick look at a few of my games he would know I generally spend my time commenting on more stuff, in contrast to how Prof's post contained little info. (Note: I recall lurking in one game early on due to rl problems but I'm generally commenting on multiple things, this game was a exception due to what I wanted to try) Ok, maybe I'm being too harsh on the meta thing but then again he has constantly praised and advocated how important it would be to name claim and because of the meta info that'll be available. You would think he would investigate further if there had been an accusation of someone lying about their identity instead of rationalizing

This is total bullshit. You are seriously attacking someone becaue they failed to check by meta whether someone is who he naimclaims? Tell me one good reason why someone would doubt a nameclaim at the start of the game!
I think you are trying to throw around stupid accusations. I really can't believe you actually

believe

what you are saying there.

6. Well, I can tell you it's not Mason. It's VT atm, being town's more fun because of the investigative aspect of it. I think being a cop would be pretty fun if I got the chance though. - This was the most important question for me to ask as it would expose Prof's lie. I tried to not be so obvious so I snuck in those other questions, which really are nice to know to I guess but not terribly important since this game did have some action earlier. I was worried that he might actually research my slot so I probably would have asked him some personal questions later or asked about his tone of posting if he had responded. I actually didn't expect to get backlash for my lying attack since it was obvious to me.

You are trying to sell me that the point of your questions was to expose that PP is lying about his name? I really cannot believe that.

[Chimaira]

VP here. Kind of perturbed that it took you so long and you're only seemingly doing it now because it's inevitable that everyone will find out. I honestly expected you to be one of the people to back me up on the pro-town nature of name claiming. Oj called this post "quite apologetic" from you...though I don't know if that means she believes you or not. I can say I have a certain skepticism, but she and I will talk it over and come to an official position soon.

The fact is this game hasn't turned out the way I was hoping it. Seeing as I would be sharing a QT with my buddy for hopefully a big chunk of time I didn't want to just come out and go against him. He was heavily against revealing names, passionate about it and we just didn't agree. We argued for several days about it.

Finally managed to work a comprise, but we still seem to be worlds apart in how the game is played. It's going to be a struggle for me I think. Not enjoying it.

But blegh, I will try and get back to actually scum hunting later today. But this is my reasoning for not claiming for so long. I did think you might figure out who I was from how I posted, but I suppose there wasn't a lot of posts for you to do that. Most of my energy has been spent in the QT lately. Gonna change that.

[Chimaira]

Good day.

This is Zorblag replacing Tasky as the non-Sotty7 head of Chimaira. Apparently Tasky decided that the difference in playstyles for the two of them was going to be great enough that it was in the interest of both parties in terms of enjoyment of the game for him to replace out.

I need to look over what's been said in the game thread thus far but I can tell you what to expect from me in terms of hydra play (which seems important in this game.) If Sotty7 and I have slight differences in our reads you'll hear about it. If we have major differences in our reads we'll sort it out in our quicktopic rather than putting the thread through our discussion process. Sotty7 controls our vote. Unless she's not about to change it at an important time or I've already confirmed with her that it's a move she's fine with she'll be the one casting it. What you're getting from us as a hydra is Sotty7 (who happens to be a fairly strong player) working with a confirmed town Zorblag giving advice for her reads as well as my take on the game situation in general and what's worth paying attention to in particular.

If you'd like to see examples of any of my play on it's own you're welcome to take a look at my wiki: Zorblag. If you're interested in seeing what to expect from me in terms of play in a hydra you're welcome to check out Mighty Orbots's three games (where I was hydra'd with Papa Zito.) Those include 2 scum games, California Trilogy III (On Camera and Off Stage) and Mafia Reverberation as well as one town game, Of Gods and Men.

If there's anything you'd like me to focus on when I read through the thread feel free to let me know. I expect to have a post with some thoughts up later today.

Also, one thing that I found helpful the last game I played with Papa Zito (and the first one where we were town and it mattered more) was to start a shared google doc for the hydra account where we could easily keep and edit shared notes on the players in the game. It was very helpful for keeping track of roles in a complicated game and just knowing what someone else I knew I could trust thought of players at a quick glance. For those of you who haven't figured out how to manage a hydra in terms of shared opinions I'd recommend it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

A Troll Vote count just to help me with where people stand (the numbers by the votes indicate the order in which the vote was cast). If I've got any votes wrong please do correct me:

Bowser: 4: Mr Smith (1), Professor Paradox (9), bv311 (10), TomAndJerry (12)
Pineapple: 3: FourTigers (3), MasterSpy (7), Faranor (11)
Professor Paradox: 2: Pineapple (6), Chimaira (8)
IceCream: 1: Crab Canon (4)

Not Voting: Bowser, IceCream

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

So here are my thought after a read through:

Claiming heads should in the long run be pro-town but I don't think that that's obvious. I could argue why if you wanted but I think it's been done to some degree. In any case, I said in the sign up thread that it would be interesting to have the option available to see who would choose to stay semi-anonymous. Part of what I thought would be interesting would be the distribution of players who chose to hide their identity and those who didn't. I'm guessing that the scum chose to split their responses between pro-claiming and pro-hiding (that's what I would have recommended scum do if I were among them during pre-game.)

Bowser needs to post more; they've disappeared since the game started. In general we should be putting pressure on hydras that don't participate; excuses for lurking are reduced in potency given the nature of hydras but the anti-town nature of lurking is a strong as normal. I support the votes there at this time.

Having said that bv311's only significant contribution thus far seems to be to attack Bowser (and in a way that seems like it could be trying to get in on a hot wagon.) There's been more of note than that in the game. This is an issue.

Sotty7 and I are going to talk about Professor Paradox some but I'm completely unsurprised by Ellibereth's behavior. This is how I expect him to act (both the fake claim and the town proclamations) as town. I know he could act that way as scum but I don't think that I expect him to. On a related note, the fake name-claim does make me like TomAndJerry a bit more than I would have otherwise (others have brought it up but the masons as a favorite bit was an issue until the counter-Lateralus22 claim came up for me.)

I have no interest in lynching Mr Smith or Crab Canon at this time. I don't think that it benefits the town to explain why. I also like the pressure that FourTigers is applying and would be interested in keeping them about at this point for the purposes of reads regardless of alignment.

I've not seen anything that I like in terms of pro-town play from Pineapple but there are a couple things I don't care for (excusing lurking, the idea that heads should be revealed under pessure.)

At this point I (Zorblag) would support any of the following lynches: Bowser; bv311; Pineapple.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

@Mr Smith looking at your posts I see the vote for Bowser in Post 150 as your most recent (if I'm missing something feel free to correct me.) Fortunately for your intentions Bowser also comes up as the most popular wagon on my vote count (though if you were voting for Professor Paragon it would be a three way tie for first.)

I'm not saying that Professor Paragon needs to be town because Ellibereth made his fake claim. He could still be scum (though as I've indicated, if I had to guess I'd guess town from what I know of him.) I disagree that having some expectations based on observed play (and I've seen Ellibereth as both scum and town) employs really bad logic. Meta isn't a means to a perfect read but it does give a basis for expectations (both based on competence and behavior patterns.) At this point I'm not asking you to be convinced that Professor Paradox is town (I'm certainly not myself) but I will ask that you accept that I have a town read based on what I expect from his actions.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

@Mr Smith, ah, I see your vote now that I'm sober this morning. It's tucked away on the right side of a line. It's probably worth putting it at the start of a line like the rules dictate to make sure that it doesn't get missed.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

It's not a mod vote count (which would be nice) but here's a Troll Vote Count (with correction to Mr Smith's vote):

Professor Paradox: 3: Mr Smith (3), Pineapple (7), Chimaira (9)
Pineapple: 3: FourTigers (4), MasterSpy (8), Faranor (12)
Bowser: 3: Professor Paradox (10), bv311 (11), TomAndJerry (13)
IceCream: 1: Crab Canon (5)

Not Voting: Bowser, IceCream

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

With that correction that Mr Smith wasn't on the Bowser wagon at the time I dislike bv311's Bowser vote less in terms of opportunism. I still want to see much more interaction with the game.

Also, we're using a fairly quick set of deadlines for MS in this game with no reduced numbers needed to lynch at the end of the day. I suspect that the nature of hydras will naturally slow down the voting and consensus process to some degree and we probably need to make sure we fight that. Hydras shouldn't have major spats in thread but for the sake of pace of game and information individual threads certainly shouldn't be afraid to do most of the analysis they would normally do in the thread as they normally would without consulting their partner. Time-wise we can't afford to let the hydras make sure they're completely consistent before posting any thoughts of value.

I also did a bit of looking and it seems that I do expect Ellibereth to list town suspects when he's scum as well. It's not a scum tell for him but it's not a town tell either like I was thinking it might be. I'd still guess town for Professor Paradox but now it's more of an expected value with no particular reason to think scum thing that it used to be. I haven't had a chance to talk with Sotty7 about him yet.

@bv311, other than Bowser who in the thread is doing things that you don't care for?

@Faranor, do you still think that bv311 is likely to be town?

@Bowser, when should we expect more content from you? Are you aware of the deadline structure in this game?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

@bv311, those aren't surprising people to suspect. I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate on the reasons why? And for the head that wasn't caught up yesterday how's that read coming?

@Crab Cannon, *titters like a schoolgirl* but what would our other heads say, Mister Vice President? The sad thing is that the impossiblity of my being town while you're also town means that you're probably not town this game but I'll go along with the hope that universal rules have been broken as it would be nice to work together and I like what you're doing so far.

Actually, based on those eyelashes you're batting I'd say that the bv311 is a real horrorshow idea. They're on my short list and Sotty7 is fine with it in the QT.

UNVOTE: Professor Paradox
VOTE: bv311

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

Okay so TnJ(Lat) post 240 explains the questions thing a lot better to me. I hadn't put the fake name + questions coming after together as a logical time line. Being out of touch in the game it didn't register, but the explanation works for me.

I don't understand why Mastespy/Chimaira considered TnJ's "not answering own questions" as a (even if weak) scumtell.

It's the whole thing about looking like your doing something when you're not. If someone doesn't appear to follow up on a question or a thought it always makes me wonder why they put it out there in the first place. However, in the case of TnJ, I made a mistake, not processing the fake name claim+questions combo. So there was a reasoning behind the thought process and I withdraw my previous complaint.

I'm happy enough to move onto bv311 and spoke with Troll briefly about it in the QT like he said. Weekends can be a bitch for me, so sorry for the short post. I'm still chewing though the thread and should be back in the land of the living come Monday.

-Sotty.

[Chimaira]

Mod: Could we get a prod on Pineapple please?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

Good work Mr Smith and Professor Paradox! You've managed to pull each other off (and thus to an extent undermine) legitimate wagons (Bowswer and bv311) for an exchange that doesn't do anything to show that either of you are the least bit scummy (and if it did then you'd be guilty of being just as scummy as the one you've just voted for.) Time is likely to be something of an issue in this game and it would be nice if we could cut out this sort of shenanigans.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

@IceCream, lack of a vote count here isn't a particularly good reason not to be voting. We did have an official one as recently as yesterday (Post 252) but here's another Troll Vote Count (again, if anyone sees something I've missed do correct me):

Pineapple: 3: FourTigers (4), MasterSpy (8), Faranor (12)
Bowser: 2: bv311 (11), TomAndJerry (13)
Professor Paradox: 2: Pineapple (7), Mr Smith (18)
bv311: 2: Crab Cannon (14), Chimaira (16)
Mr Smith: 1: Professor Paradox (17)

Not Voting: Bowser, IceCream

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

We're working on a timer here your experiences with the hydra exemplify one of the big reasons it's probably going to sneak up on us; there's more coordination to get done than in most games. Getting those votes in is important this game.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

@IceCream, remind me what you think Bowser's done that's scummy as opposed to anti-town if you will. We've got a case for active lurking for him but it seems like we've got one of those for bv311. We've got some potential connections with Bowser's early posting but mostly it just looks unimpressive rather than super-scummy to me. With bv311 we've got lack of a presence early in the game (other than the avatar hi jinx) but lack of a presence isn't something that should help someone. Bowser's a fine wagon but I'm not sure why you think it's markedly better than bv311 and perhaps you can clear that up for me.

@bv311, this isn't a huge game but I'd like your thoughts on whatever you're up to now followed by the rest of them when you're done with them. There's no reason to have to choose between those two. We also need to be moving things along here; you should be providing cases without giving us silly choices like that.

Mod: Can we please prod Bowser?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

Mod: What time zone is the deadline in?

At this point I'm not really sure why someone, namely Icecream, can argue the Bowser wagon is better than the bv one. Boswer has flaked and is being replaced. bv on the other hand has shown they are watching the thread enough to respond to the wagon that built on them. But still refuse to actively participate. With the deadline getting ready to steam roll us in a few days this isn't acceptable behavior at all.

I have been speaking with Troll and for now I am willing to agree with him and put the fake name claiming deal down to it being Eli's playstyle. I hate the Smith vote that hydra has active currently though and they don't seem to be doing much of anything else ether. That really needs to change.

~Sotty

[Chimaira]

And I believe that that puts bv311 at L-1. No one should hammer without asking for a claim first. No one should ask for a claim if they're not ready to hammer. If anyone on the wagon doesn't want to lynch bv311 at this time now's the time to get off the wagon. Here's the unofficial Troll Vote Count I'm using. If you see anything wrong do let me know:

bv311: 6: Crab Canon (14), Chimaira (16), FourTigers (20), MasterSpy (21), Mr Smith (22), IceCream (23)
Bowser: 2: bv311 (11), TomAndJerry (13)
Professor Paradox: 1: Pineapple (7)
Pineapple: 1: Faranor (12)
Mr Smith: 1: Professor Paradox (17)

Not Voting: Bowser

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

@IceCream, remind me what you think Bowser's done that's scummy as opposed to anti-town if you will. We've got a case for active lurking for him but it seems like we've got one of those for bv311. We've got some potential connections with Bowser's early posting but mostly it just looks unimpressive rather than super-scummy to me. With bv311 we've got lack of a presence early in the game (other than the avatar hi jinx) but lack of a presence isn't something that should help someone. Bowser's a fine wagon but I'm not sure why you think it's markedly better than bv311 and perhaps you can clear that up for me.

My other head made a pretty succinct case against bowser earlier iirc.

There is something seriously wrong with this game if you think actions that occurred during pregame are still the scummiest thing in the thread so far. I do appreciate the move over to bv after this though. But seriously, we're 14 pages in. Bowser should probably be replaced.

@TnJ: Bowser only posts after getting prodded were as bv is actively following the thread as demonstrated by his pop up the minute a wagon started on him. I'm not sure I buy his “I might need to replace out” while still pointing the finger at Fourtigers as scummy. He's following along enough to know what is going on but doesn't actually do anything.

Let me ask you the same question, why would you rather have a Bowser lynch than a bv one?

~Sotty

[Chimaira]

@TomAndJerry and Pineapple, everyone should be willing to hammer to prevent a no lynch. If you're actually ready to make that happen it'll be time to ask for a claim. There's every reason to make intent clear here as we don't want unnecessary claims.

@Faranor, the numbers by the players indicate the order in which the votes were cast. Faranor (12) means that the vote showing up on the vote count was the 12th vote cast today. I use it for breaking deadline ties when I'm modding (and if I put the information in the vote counts there can't be any objections that people didn't know who was going to be the tie breaker.) In this game that doesn't matter but it still gives me a feel for how the votes are spaced out. As I'm just copying the vote count from the notes I'm keeping (so that I don't have to rely on mod vote counts to know the state of the game) so the rest of you get to see it as well.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

@Pineapple, saying that you're willing to hammer if needed but only after a claim doesn't give the same impression as saying that you're ready to hammer and want a claim. Thank you for clearing up your intentions there.

@bv311, you should claim at this point.

@IceCream, important things can happen in pregames. This time, as far as I can tell, you're saying that someone having silly opinions about what's reasonable for a pregame vote vs. a pregame FoS when neither actually get anyone closer to a lynch is the scummiest thing that's happened all game. I'm fine if you think that it's scummy (though personally I think that it's awkward phrasing and not well thought out policy which is what I end up thinking of most of the cases that get made very early in games.) The issue here as far as I'm concerned is that you think it's a big enough deal that nothing that's happened after that is going to give you a better indication that someone's scum.

@Mr Smith, I suppose it's possible that you believe that the first few pages of the game are always the most important. It's a pretty absurd position in my opinion. Parama's seen me hunt for scum recently in a large, complicated game (Of Gods and Men) and if that was him posting I hope that he realizes that the first few pages in that game weren't particularly vital. It's the overall shape of play that's important; as often as not (and this is what was useful in Of Gods and Men) is what people aren't saying and the gaps between posts that are useful for finding scum. Unless you think that town start the game entirely settled themselves looking for the unsettled play at the start of the game isn't really a good way to pick out scum so much as it's a good way to pick out players who are unprepared.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

So I guess that based on a process of elimination we can probably decide that Robocopter87 should be the other head of TomAndJerry at this point. He's still posting so he wasn't in bv311 and Sotty7 seems to think that the active head of MasterSpy from yesterday was probably someone else. That only leaves TomAndJerry's second head as an option.

@Bowser, if you're still playing this game we need some input from you now. I know that you've been busy/sick or whatever but if you're here to play it's time to play.

@Crab Canon, there were probably scum on that bv311 wagon but at this point, even with FourTigers getting killed, it still comprises more than half the remaining players and it's probably safe to assume that scum were split between those on the wagon and those off it. At this point I don't think that it's a great means to separate out likely town from likely scum based on itself alone. I suppose you're welcome to take the route you want to finding scum but for now I'm more interested in overall play.

@MasterSpy, welcome to the game, new white spy head. I guess I'll ask you to keep in mind that the deadlines here move quickly so if you've got some reads it'd be great to share them with us (even if it's through your other head) sooner rather than later so that there's more time to digest what you've picked up on.

@Pineapple, your hammer post seems to be awfully concerned about how people will perceive you to me. Would you say that's a fair observation? I'm also curious how you justify the sentiment that you shouldn't have to share your thoughts on who's scummy just because your other head was asked about it (from Post 326.)

@TomAndJerry, assuming that I'm right about Robocopter87 your three posts today have consisted of two filler posts and one no time for content now post. I'd like something relevant with your next post if you don't mind.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

third, @ CC: why the start of the bv311 bandwagon? i agree with it in the sense that i dont like his play so far this game either, and i'm not against lynching him, but to me it seemed to come almost out of the blue and/or in response to Zorblag putting him on his shortlist.

fourth, @ FourTigers: you expressed a desire to lynch bv311 earlier, and have again mentioned that you will vote him closer to deadline. so what is preventing you from voting him/joining the bandwagon now?

This quote here looks very much like you are speaking out both sides of your mouth. First off, you question the bv wagon saying it came up out of the blue, never really commenting if he was scummy or not. Then you link the wagon to troll's post even though you didn't really believe that was the case. What was the point of asking this then?

It sounds like you were against this wagon for it's suddenness. But then you go on to ask FourTigers when they hadn't joined the supposed “questionable” bv wagon. The tone of this question feels like you are trying to pressure FourTigers into joining, why?

I don't like you sitting so firmly on the fence with this post at all.

Your next mention of bv is here, where you state willingness to hammer. Wait, what? You had only given very vague feelings surrounding the bv wagon but now you are ready to drop the hammer. Why?

I agree with Troll that your hammer post is very concerned in how people would perceive you instead of focusing on what was important; if bv was likely scum or not. However, I don't agree with your assement in that post that Crab Cannon was frocing you into a dammed if you do dammed if you don't situation. They said if bv flipped scum they were looking your way for a buddy. That seems pretty clear cut to me. You seem

way

too willing to dump the blame for your hammer right into their lap. Scummy.

You were very tentative around the bv wagon, seemingly preferring PP but making no effort to push that hydra in any way. There was no real drive to your posts as I look them over again and it looks like you were just happy to settle for a lynch. You really need to swing.

Vote: Pineapple

@TnJ: Since Troll made both those posts, I'll let him answer you.

~Sotty.

[Chimaira]

@TomAndJerry, in a game where multiple people are asking for vote counts I think that a warning that someone is at L-1 along with a vote count should be counted as fluff. You're not just asking that because I pointed out that the first three posts you made today didn't add anything to the game are you? Because that seems like an awfully odd question to ask out of the blue.

Mr Smith made a ridiculous statement about the first couple pages of a game always being the most important in every game in response to something I said. I was pointing out why he shouldn't believe that. If you want to think it was a reprimand or a theory less I suppose you can; mostly I was responding to a comment someone made to me much like I'm doing now with you.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

@Mr Smith, I was reacting to (and have now been talking about as TomAndJerry is bringing it up) what you said in Post 336.

Nope, that is the way mafia games work. When things settle, scum do too. The first few pages are always the most important.

Do you think that I'm misrepresenting what you said there?

I'm not saying that important things can't happen in the first couple pages of the game or that scum can't be caught then. I'm saying that it's not always going to be the case that the first couple pages are where the most important action happens. In this game in particular I think that it's not the case, for example, but I think that in most games more important things happen later in the game.

@TomAndJerry, you're presenting me with a false dichotomy here. As I said in my answer I wasn't particularly trying to reprimand Mr Smith or give him a lesson about theory. I was trying to respond to a comment that he made to me. Do you think that I'm trying to reprimand you or give you a lesson in theory now? I'm not and I think it would be silly to assume that those were my only options when responding to players in games of mafia in general.

As I said to Mr Smith just now I don't think that the first couple pages of this game were particularly rich with information that's going to help us win the game. They're not worthless but they're probably being overrated by those who think that they've caught scum using just them. It's possible that we'll be able to go back and use them for connection purposes later but I think that cases based primarily on those first interactions are going to be far weaker than cases based on overall play.

@Bowser, you don't need your other heads permission to post your thoughts. No one should (though everyone should be working with their partners to process information) and we're going to hit the deadline real quick if people spend too much time at it. For you in particular we're essentially lacking any play of use since day one started so I'd much rather see what you're thinking now than see a filtered version later.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

A Troll Vote Count for easy access purposes. Numbers by the names indicate the order in which the vote was cast:

Pineapple: 3: Faranor (2), Chimaira (3), IceCream (4)

Not Voting: Bowser, Crab Canon, MasterSpy, Mr Smith, Pineapple, Professor Paradox, TomAndJerry

With 10 voting it takes 6 to lynch.

Remember that this isn't official and do correct any mistakes that I've made.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

i wasn't questioning the wagon so much as i was questioning CC's motives for the wagon or FT's motives for not joining a wagon that he expressed desire to join. i had nothing against the wagon itself.

You went out of your way not to comment on it but were willing to hammer, why? It doesn't add up

as for not pushing PP harder...it's a bit hard to do that when almost everyone is giving him a free pass for his actions.

Why do you care so much what other players think? If you think PP is scum

push

them! Make cases on them, ask them questions... You know, scum hunt. I didn't see any of that from you yesterday and that's a big part of the reason why our vote is on you today.

What do you think of PP today? Who's scum?

~Sotty

[Chimaira]

OK, we're now halfway to deadline for today. Thus far 5 of 10 hydras have yet to cast any votes today. That's not acceptable. We've got a decision that needs to be made by midnight Monday and we need to get down to business. Needing to check with your other head before voting can't take this long. You've all played games of mafia on your own. You can all make these decisions if you need to. If your hydra partner isn't about then you need to start doing that. I'm talking to Bowser, Crab Canon, MasterSpy, Professor Paradox and TomAndJerry here.

@Faranor, hydra heads don't have to come to perfect agreement on suspicions, that's one of the advantages of working with a partner. You're apparently claiming that one of your heads is sure that MasterSpy is scum and the other thinks that he's town. That's a perfect issue to work out behind the scenes. Right now it looks like you're making sure you can fall down on whichever side of the issue will help you down the line because you've certainly got both sides publicly covered. I don't care for that at all.

@Pineapple, if you're now getting VI reads on your other scum suspects who's at the top of your list other than Faranor?

@Bowser, have you even looked at anyone other than Pineapple at this point?

@TomAndJerry, I'm perplexed as to what you're having trouble understanding here. This exchange that we're having is me responding to things that you're posting. Unless you think that it's just fluff (in which case I question your motive for continuing it) I'm not sure why you'd think my doing the same thing with Mr Smith would be just fluff. When people make comments to me that I think are wrong I'll disagree. When people ask me questions I'll respond. When I see something that I think is note worth I'll note it. It's a part of playing an interactive game like mafia. In the case you're hung up on Mr Smith said something to me that I disagreed with so I told him why I thought he was wrong. How is that at all unexpected in a game of mafia? You seem to be treating it as though it's some bizarre thing that happened when it's really not. Do you think that Mr Smith's first comment to me was incomprehensible in some way or that he was posting just fluff?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

Apologies for not posting much recently, I haven't been feeling very well.

maybe because i didnt go out of my way not to comment on it.

Really now?

third, @ CC: why the start of the bv311 bandwagon? i agree with it in the sense that i dont like his play so far this game either, and i'm not against lynching him, but to me it seemed to come almost out of the blue and/or in response to Zorblag putting him on his shortlist.

fourth, @ FourTigers: you expressed a desire to lynch bv311 earlier, and have again mentioned that you will vote him closer to deadline. so what is preventing you from voting him/joining the bandwagon now?

I just commented on random stuff I saw while catching up. If you want me to comment on anything specific, just tell me.
@bv310: Please post a vote count. —Apple

Who do you think is scum? Do you have any opinion other than just defending yourself?

This has yet to be answered. I am disappoint.

that question was directed towards my partner who is replacing out at the moment. so it likely will go unanswered.

i am also willing to hammer bv311 if needed, but only after a claim.

@Troll: i believe i did ask for him to claim...although perhaps a bit indirectly. and yes i have every intent to hammer him at this point in time.

third, @ CC: why the start of the bv311 bandwagon? i agree with it in the sense that i dont like his play so far this game either, and i'm not against lynching him, but to me it seemed to come almost out of the blue and/or in response to Zorblag putting him on his shortlist.

lol, you seriously think it's related to troll. This post to me looks like Pineapple hedging his bets on his buddy getting run up out of nowhere. The reason I voted bv311 was because he was doing nothing and I wanted a read on him. His intent to continue to do nothing shows me that he stands at least a decent chance of being scum and would be a great lynch today. You saying 'oh well, I'd vote him but I'm not going to' screams scum buddy. If he flips scum, you may as well kill us tonight because I'm going to want you dead tomorrow.

no i didnt seriously think it was related to troll. but thought i'd ask anyway.

also interesting to note that this post looks like you planning on running me up to a lynch tomorrow regardless of what i do. good ol' damned if i do; damned if i dont.

also i never said that i'd vote him but i'm not going to. i said i'd vote him but wanted a claim from him first.

and he just claimed. VT.

good ol' damned if i do; damned if i dont in your eyes. if i hammer him here and he flips VT, then you are all over me for being an obvscum hammer. if i hammer here and he flips scum, then you are all over me for bussing my partner that is an inevitable lynch. if i dont hammer and someone else does and he flips scum, i look like i was trying to avoid hammering my partner. if i dont hammer and someone else does and he flips town, i look like i was scum trying to avoid a townie lynch.


but anyway a VT claim isn't reason enough to not hammer him. he hasn't been contributing and has been actively lurking.

Unvote

VOTE: bv311

These four quotes are your only comments on the bv wagon. You take no firm stance on him, slightly defending him while pushing his wagon in the first. A statement to hammer in the second, asking for a claim in the third and then of course the ridiculous hammer post.

I want to know why you were willing to hammer, I want to know why you gave up pushing your supposed scum reads to turn on bv. You clearly avoided taking any position on bv all the while setting yourself up to pass the buck when you hammered him. Your deflections of this point make me more and more convinced you are scum.

~Sotty

[Chimaira]

Huh, that's crazy. I could have sworn we were working with 7 day deadlines rather than 14. Some of the urgency that I was expressing earlier is now gone (though we should still be working as though we wanted to make progress.) We shouldn't be thinking of it as almost two weeks away (we've used much of the first week and don't have nearly enough to show for it) but we're in better shape than the just over two days I thought we had left.

I agree with MasterSpy that we should have someone who's ready to hammer before Pineapple (or anyone) claims. At this point there is plenty of time to get that claim and think about it before a hammer.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

@Mr Smith, if you don't want Pineapple to be our lynch today then you shouldn't want them to claim. I assume that you think they're town (or you wouldn't oppose the lynch) which means that you'd expect a claim to either out a power role unnecessarily or give scum more information for finding power roles elsewhere. If Pineapple is going to get lynched then a claim is good as it gives them a chance to share whatever information they might have; otherwise they should keep their role to themselves unless there's a reason that revealing it would help the town.

So if you think that Pineapple is town I assume you think that there's scum on the wagon. Clearly you think that Bowser is among them; do you think that there are any others? If it turns out that you're wrong and Pineapple is scum who if anyone on the wagon would be likely to be scum with them?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

I'm still here and I still think Pineapple should be lynched. They still haven't provided anything in the way of scum hunting today, plus their defense has been awful so far.

~Sotty

[Chimaira]

OK, most of you appear to have sent a PM to bv310 that you're still in the game. If you're town, now it's time to show that you're still in the game. By not posting we're all giving scum a chance to lurk their way to victory completely masked by inactive townies. We've got a deadline coming up and by my count we've got four players who aren't voting (of which two have never voted.) Let's start with them.

@Bowser, if you think that Mr Smith is scum going with an angry townie routine at this point you should be voting for them. If you've changed your mind and think that Pineapple is still a great lynch then I certainly hope that you still think they're scum (at this point information from a flip shouldn't be our main goal for the game.) If you think that someone else is worth voting (and it would be nice to think that you'd actually read the game and had opinions though I've got what feel like justified doubts) then someone else should be getting that vote. In any case, your unvote isn't doing us any good at all; we need scum hunting, pressure, and firmer stances. Voting is how you can help with those.

@Pineapple, I'm not sure which of you just replaced into the game but we've gone well beyond whatever limits commenting shortly might entail. With the unvote for Faranor I guess we're supposed to think that your top suspects were IceCream and MasterSpy. It'd be much better if I weren't trying to guess that but, instead, actually knew what you were thinking suspect-wise because you had a vote down. Let's change that, shall we?

@Professor Paradox, what you're doing now is active lurking. What's worse is you're active lurking with two players. The nothing we've got from you today is completely unacceptable. As far as I can tell all that you've done today is Bowser is feeling more town. Justify your presense in the game. Cast a vote. Hell, you're a hydra with Ellibereth, tell us who's town and who's scum.

@TomAndJerry, you had some opinions earlier in the game but then you disappeared. If you were deciding between Bowser and Pineapple that decisions should have been made by now so back it up with a vote. If you suspect Mr Smith or IceCream then do something that's going to help you figure out whether or not they're scum. If you suspect someone else now then get in here and let us know who it is. Really though, it's inexcusable that you've not cast a vote yet when we're three days away from deadline.

For what it's worth, those four might as well be my top four suspects at this point (though it's not like there isn't some stiff competition for a number of other spots; there's so much more to dislike than to like in this game.) They'd be there somewhat naturally anyhow and the not voting (even in a game with low participation) pushes them to the top. Mind you, it's not just those who aren't voting now who should be doing something. We need to start figuring out what sort of shifting needs to be done to get a lynch in before deadline; we're not short on reasonable choices but we lack discussion and the effort to get a cohesive process going.

@IceCream and Mr Smith, I'm not seeing the Crab Canon case. There is perhaps less posting from VP Baltar than ideal but that's true of the entire game. They're actively pursuing cases and I just don't see this ignoring the issue that you think they're doing. If you want the wagon to get serious consideration perhaps a bit more on why the rest of us should consider it would be good to present?

@MasterSpy, it looks like you're struggling with how to present different opinions. Offhand I'd seriously recommend just picking one player to be the decision maker and have the other play support. In Chimaira I'm the support role; I'm sharing all my thoughts with Sotty7 in our QT so that she's got access to a point of view she knows she can trust to be town but she makes the calls. If I were ever to disagree with a direction she was heading I'd let her know but I trust her judgment enough to let her run with it. In the game thread I'm here to make some observations and ask the questions I think will help me get reads. We suspect that your first head is MagnaofIllusion (who I don't have any experience with but who Sotty7 seems to think is pretty sharp) and we know your second head is Mina who I've worked with in a QT in the past and have seen push good cases (as well as some more like Fate, but that's fine.) I believe that either of you should be capable of making decent decisions so mostly it would be a matter of figuring out who's willing to trust the other's judgment. Personally I'd be willing to play support head to either of you.

I like your Professor Paradox push now given the complete lack of contribution for that spot today. I do wonder how likely you think you are to get the support to make it a viable wagon to consider though.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

@TomAndJerry, actually we're down to about three days till deadline. Your hydra has yet to cast a vote today. There is some urgency in getting your opinions on the game out here and getting a vote in. Also, apparently welcome to the game, Charlie.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

The Crab case feels pretty weak really. I have also found it hard to post in this game sometimes so I can't hold VP's lower activity against him. Also I know OJ is having a busy time right now because I am in currently hydra'ing with her in another game and she is barely around. So yeah, I'm gonna need more than lurking + gut to reconsider my read of that hydra.

Good to see a little activity coming with replacements. PP needs to explain the vote on Icecream, that hydra is lacking serious content.

I also want to know why Pineapple is voting for Farnor. The lack of effort I am seeing from this slot to actually get scum reads out is getting insane. Scum reads+reasons asap please! Your other head replaced in a while ago now, this slacking isn't acceptable. It's like you are trying to ride out the deadline.

~Sotty

[Chimaira]

I personally think that Pineapple's overthinking how the hammer would come across depending on the flip looked sincere, and was the kind of thing that looks scummy on paper but no scum would

actually

do. But Black Spy and I haven't discussed Pineapple yet.

Why not? They are one of the top wagons of the day, I would have thought you would have discussed

something

about them. You should probably do that soon.

Could I have each slot's top two scum suspects?

Pineapple and you.

Why is it you haven't voted today? Asking for top two scum suspects reeks of you looking for an easy place to stick your vote (AKA you not scum hunting). You have only voted for Bowser all game and that vote came well into day one. Why are you trying so hard to fly under the radar?

Icecream

, I don't think the juicy player lists equates into a good games all the time. You might have had a semi good argument if hydras were hand picked, they weren't. The fact that everyone in the game has been lurking to some degree at some point pokes holes in your theory. In other words, just saying someone is a good player isn't enough for me to be suspicious of them. I'd say a very high percentage of this game is filled with good players. I'm not about to start suspecting them all.

Basically make a case that is based in game. Good players aren't impossible to read. I don't see anything resembling a Crab case from you. If you want me to take you seriously, you are going to have to change that.

~Sotty

[Chimaira]

My last post was essentially a vote as I named my top suspect, but hey this time around I got a partner who posts in the game so I figured I'd wait around until then. How am I exactly flying under the radar, you know voting isn't the only scum hunting method >.>

Please. This isn't a newbie game, you should know by now how important voting is. Your list of excuses is less than impressive. But hey, at least you got a vote out there right?

And as far as your point on Troll doing vote counts on day one that was simply because the Mod wasn't doing them at all. I can understand being a replacement and not feeling the real time wait we had between counts, but I think you are pushing a null tell at best there.

Still extremely happy with a Pineapple lynch. I think we're looking at a scum flip here, the lazy town claim doesn't inspire me away from that thinking.

The back and forth between Crab and Mr Smith is actually a good thing as it is getting everything out in the open between them. I still leaning town on both of these slots though.

~Sotty

[Chimaira]

We're at eight hydras at this point which is probably MyLo (though it looks like IceCream figured that out.) We almost certainly want to either claim and play the day or no lynch with minimal conversation. If we no lynch then everyone should be very clear that a missed vig shot along with a scum kill almost certainly loses for us.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

Vote: No lynch

[Chimaira]

Chimaira is a roleblocker.

Night one we blocked Bowser.
Night two we blocked TomAndJerry
Night three we blocked Professor Paradox.

TomAndJerry should claim next.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

@Mr Smith, I'll be happy to talk about our reasons after the mass claim is done. For now (as always) mass claim should be done with as little other conversation as possible as that simply helps the scum figure out what they want to claim.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

@Mr Smith, holding off discussion until after the mass claim is over isn't stalling, it's the appropriate play. Fortunately I'm less interested in what pleases you than I am in finding scum but it would still have been better if you'd waited. I also don't particularly like your vote coming this early in LyLo (especially not with that justification); if you're aware that you're likely to tunnel then it's something you can do something about especially as you're part of a hydra. If you're convinced with your case I can live with it (as I don't have much choice) but that sort of play loses games when it comes from town.

As for whether or not you think that it's reasonable to put a town roleblocker in a mini I guess all that I can say is that I didn't make the setup but I am aware that people think that roeblockers are an inherently scum role; if I was a scum roleblocker I'd probably claim something like jailkeeper which people seem to find more likely to come from town. As I'm town and not interested in making gambitty fake claims I'm just going with the role I've got.

Night one we blocked Bowser because they'd been largely a non-entity; they would have been a decent choice for a cop investigation or a track if we had one. The other player we gave serious consideration was Pineapple; when our block didn't seem to stop the kill Bowser's chances of being scum were reduced slightly so Pineapple was where we started day two.

Bowser is almost certainly a power role (they knew they were blocked) and tracker is pretty believable. It's possible that they're a scum PR and we do seem to have more than I'd expect but in any case blocking them hadn't stopped the kill (unless there was a vig or SK or some such, in which case the extra kill the next night should have given that away) so they weren't a good target for night two.

Night two we went with our best bet for scum, TomAndJerry. The other options we considered were IceCream and Professor Paradox (Sotty7's first choice was still Professor Paradox but I talked her into TomAndJerry.) When that probably didn't stop the kill (or on the off chance that it had and scum would probably switch killers anyhow) we went with Professor Paradox on night three. There was some chance that Mr Smith really did try to vig Bowser night two and that FourTigers stopped it as the bodyguard but I very much hoped that if that was true he'd listen when I warned that a missed vig shot could end the game for town.

@Professor Paradox, I'd also like to know why you chose to watch TomAndJerry night two. Were you expecting them to get killed for some reason? I'd have thought that either Bowser or Mr Smith (both of whom would seem to be somewhat likely to draw kills or roleblocks) would have been much better choices for a watch (or a stronger player overall if you thought that scum were going to ignore the twilight claims.)

Re: IceCream and the double role blocking business to start the day. Unless scum also have a roleblocker (which I don't think is all that likely though I suppose it's possible) there's really no way that comment could have revealed knowledge that they wouldn't have; that should be a null tell.

Prior to the claims our best two guesses for scum were TomAndJerry and Professor Paradox (with IceCream coming in at third.) Sotty7 and I haven't had a chance to connect and talk about the claims yet but hopefully we'll do that today. I know that the vanilla claims won't do anything to reduce her suspicion and I need to see what she thinks about the watcher claim.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

Now the holiday weekend is over I've managed to catch up with Troll and talk the mass claim over. I think PP is a scum watcher, I see no other reason for them to have watched TnJ on night two. We had a claimed vig and tracker in thread, who as targets, were infinitely better choices than scummy looking TnJ. I really want an explanation on that. This probably leans more towards Bowser being town the more I think about it. Mostly because I don't see a scum team of a tracker AND watcher.

I'm still finding TnJ pretty scummy, their reluctance to give the town much of a voting record is very suspect. Combine that with the fact PP watched them on night two and I think we have a scum pairing here.

Icecream's double blocking post is bad, but what's worse is the hydra distancing they are playing in thread now. The whole “I dunno the other guy said it” is pretty weak.

Also the lack of comment by Faranor on Mr Smith's vote on them is looking very bad when this is more than likely a LYLO situation. I would think a townie being voted in that situation would be much more anxious to engage the vote. Even if just a little. Ignoring it doesn't feel like a natrual townie reaction.

Right now I am liking PP, TnJ and one of Ice/Faranor as the scum.

~Sotty

[Chimaira]

Vote: Professor Paradox

I just can't buy the missing of the claims. Tal is right in saying that was the most exiting thing that happened in the game. PP is trying to say that they sent in their action without checking the thread because Boswer's claim is right before the lynch scene. It's complete BS if you ask me.

Now the hop on the Faranor wagon with no support reasoning at all? Yeah. Busted scum.

~Sotty

[Chimaira]

Yeah, at this point I'd be shocked if Professor Paradox flipped town based on the night actions and the claims we've got here. Both players missing the twilight claims is a huge stretch but, fine, for the sake of argument let's allow that. There's no reason to have switched the watch from Crab Canon (unless there'd be some reason to think that scum would target the same people multiple nights in a row with a kill or some power role it makes at least as much sense to watch the same player you did previously provided you still think they're town.) Unless there's some thought that TomAndJerry was particularly pro-town and likely to be a threat to scum there's no great reason to think that's where a scum action would wind up. As Sotty7 said earlier it makes so much more sense for a scum watcher to have been watching a buddy with that action.

Past that at this point it should be clear that at least one of Mr Smith and Faranor is scum. Unless we're not really in LyLo (in which case we're worrying about this more than we need to) Faranor really should have been quick-hammered by scum by now if both were town. Of the two the safe money's certainly on Faranor but it's still a bigger gamble than Professor Paradox.

At this point we lynch Professor Paradox today, Chimaira will block one of TomAndJerry or Faranor (with the appropriate weighting of chances based on who's likely to be scum) and Bowser should track whichever of them (or Mr Smith just in case) they think is best (I trust Talitha's ability to make a good decision here) and we should be able to shut down or catch the kill and finish the game strong.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Chimaira]

Mod: Could we please prod TomAndJerry

-Zorblag R`Lyeh