Zachtown in the mountains (Game over TOWN WINS!)

[RedCoyote]

Man, I was really hoping to be scum this game

Ditto. This is going to be a long game.

It should be fun though.

[RedCoyote]

ITT: Scum explain how happy they are that they're not scum.

How much you willing to stake? (For my self, no nothing of the copycat)

Shoot.

Well, no use playing dumb, Ben. We're no match for Percy's acute intuition.

[RedCoyote]

I don't think IAI's numbers are IIoA, because he clearly states after giving us the information that he doesn't like the plan. Additionally, he isn't saying that Benmage is scummy for suggesting it, he's just crunching the numbers for the town's benefit. Benmage getting defensive looks significantly worse than anything else here.

---

IAM, if Benmage's plan was scummy, why aren't you voting him?

Vote: Sotty7

I agree with Percy's vote here. I'm thinking we have a similar problem with Sotty's comment. I don't recall IAI ever saying pointedly that Benmage's plan is scummy, yet she presumes that and gives him a question from that presumption.

Vote: Sotty7

[RedCoyote]

Whoops. Good catch, Oso. I missed that post entirely.

Unvote

;

Vote: Nikanor

for not catching that before Oso did.

[RedCoyote]

IAM had indicated the plan by Benmage was scummy, Sotty rightly questioned himn over why he wasnt voting if he thought the plan was scummy. I would have done the same

Yeah, we covered that.

Goodness, I think everyone here would probably benefit from slowing down and reading a little more carefully. XD

---

It's filler posting. Thats why its scummy.

No, it's not. For the same reason it can't be written off as IIoA. If he would've just posted the statistics, then you may have something. As it stands, he made it a point to give analysis.

---

I have never played with him so am curious to know what you mean.

You don't remember me, jason?

---

I mean that Red is a very capable player so him making a mistake that was so obvious was out of character. The more I think about it, the more it is probably null. Nobody is perfect after all. But I'm not discounting the possibility of scum Red screwing with my mind.

No worries, it was a genuine mistake. I think I saw IAI's post, but then I saw your vote and immediately I went back to the earlier IAI post (40) because I didn't remember him saying that the plan was scummy. When I confirmed it, I just moved on from that point and onto the next page to write my own post.

---

Do you know what else is a scum tell...voting for yourself.

This is a null tell. That's about the earliest I've ever seen anyone "give up" though. IAI, I think you should take a step back from this game a lurk for a day or two. Just read what other people say and come back to it after a while. You don't need to make a post every few hours, and you certainly don't have to beat yourself up over three votes. The people most unimpressed with you are among the most vocal, but that doesn't mean they make up the majority. This game has many weeks to go yet. Just calm down and roll with the punches, bud.

In other news, I don't have much to bring to the plate offensively at the moment. Elmo, Percy, Sotty, Oso... all making valid points and good posts. benmage is a little sloppy but, like IAI, I don't really see anything sinister about him.

[RedCoyote]

I don't particularly have a problem with it; Oso made a valid argument, even if it was wrong. I also see your point against it though, Elmo.

I don't agree with either of y'all though.

[RedCoyote]

My point against it being (partially) that it wasn't valid?

Look, I'm saying you have a fair argument against Oso. I could easily see Oso trying to make a big stink over something minor in anticipation of me having to admit missing a crucial piece of information. On the same token, Oso had a point to call me out, and he has since tapered down his sense of grandiosity, as you labeled it.

It's a wash.

---

I see some people are not on the wagons with multiple votes, yet lynching is good for town D1 as it gives the uninformed side of things we're on information.

How do you suppose we remedy that? With discussion, with cases, with responses... all of which everyone should be taking a part of. There's no reason to lecture about the importance of bandwagons 5 pages into a game. How contrived sounding.

I know the setup is open, too, does anyone have any idea as to the most likely setup(s)?

What? Explain what you mean.

---

What in particular about Benmage's reaction was suspicious? How do you think Town Benmage should have reacted?

It's completely over-the-top and flat out incorrect. He's jumping on IAI for IIoA when IAI was clearly analyzing the game. Benmage, as town, should've either recognized that or went in a different direction with his accusations. There's no reason to continue to press on a point like that unless you're just hard up to get into a shouting match.

This is the lamest vote ever, and feels like deflection. If you can't keep track of your own posts, why do you expect Nikanor to do it for you?

When you say, "can't keep track of your own posts", I'm assuming you mean, "can't keep track of other's posts". If this is wrong then let me know.

Nikanor's first post in the game is a dud, and it wasn't just an expectation of him analyzing all the posts prior to his. I was more concerned with the fact that Nikanor didn't really address

anything

of value. In other words, my vote could've just as easily came with the tagline, "for completely dodging everything important going on".

This feels like sucking up.

Aren't you just jealous that your name isn't on that list?

Seriously though, what do you want me to say? I made an early attack and was rightfully swatted back for not doing all my homework. That necessarily kicks my impression down a notch or two on the game as a whole. Now I'm going to have to think twice before I throw my weight at someone of more consequence, so to speak.

Rest assured, however, if I see something flagrant, be it in that group or not, I won't hesitate.

I was going to ask Zach to prod Furc, but apparently he's posted...and is probably scum. Goody. I may just change my vote to him tomorrow.

You're definitely going to have to elaborate on this one. I'd also like you to talk a little bit more about Oso in your next post (especially if you're taking a liking to Elmo's arguments).

Also, I like you pushing mongoose and imkingdavid, and I'm anxious to get more of a reaction out of them.

---

And if it was an "easy dig", is it any easier than saying "I'm so sad I'm not scum, SO SAD. SRSLY guys SO SAD, **SO SAD**, I'm town and SO SO SAD"?

I'm this close to saying that you sould lighten up a bit. This close.

---

The jasonwagonofone needs more love.

Is it a coincidence that you're already voting him or not?

[RedCoyote]

I'm serious, Nikanor. Your original vote could easily be mistaken for an RVS vote.

[RedCoyote]

also, the town seems really really split on benmage

I noticed this as well. This IAI/Benmage thing is pretty divisive.

---

My first vote was random. Now it is serious business. Why does it matter?

Hm. It's a pretty big coincidence I guess, given that there are 16 players in the game.

---

ok,

i see above he is lying

.... Im happy with my vote. A claim like that could have outted a real cop.

Shouldn't you already know he was lying? What did you see?

Unvote

;

vote:jasonT1981

And how could a real Cop be outed in a mountainous game?

This is quite telling if you ask me.

---

my vote was based on your rolecop claim, claiming me as scum.. at the time I thought you were being serious and I had not realized it was all vanilla.

I don't buy this. jason sounds like he's scrambling here. He slipped up.

[RedCoyote]

uhm... so when kingdavid says he forgot it means nothing, but when jason says he forgot it's a scumtell? Seriously?

I'm still happy with my vote.

kingdavid and Furcolow didn't use it as an excuse to get defensive and lose their cool. jason clearly overreacted. Everyone knew Nikanor was lying. Hell, I even told Nikanor immediately after he "claimed" that I wanted him to be serious.

[RedCoyote]

Sotty said, let's try something else. Could have been a message to me, could have been a message to a partner on the wagon with her.

The first time I read this I kind of discounted that, but it is a bit of a weird transition from you to Nikanor. Eh, it's still a bit of a stretch though. Hold onto this to look back at it in D3 or D4.

---

I see your follow up to Jason in post 169 but you should know that being defensive isn't a scum tell.... So what?

Let me put it this way. jason was being voted by just Nikanor at that point if I remember correctly. That would mean he was at, what, L-7? The game just started. Even if he didn't think the setup was Mountainous, why did he feel compelled to immediately vote him in response? Why did he skip my post? Why the "you are lying!", then, "oh, I see now you are lying". It doesn't sound right. There's too much going on here to sound real.

The fact you threw in a dig on a player who you later state is probably a townie doesn't make you look good. I stated that I felt your direct question to benmage was more than a little bitter sounding

Wait, IAI said you were townie? Do you have this post? I don't remember this.

---

Dry-Fit is a good lynch. I wouldn't mind us quicklynching him.

You're very difficult to follow. So you think both Oso and Dry-fit are scummy, correct?

---

Cause I'm a day cop.

Heh.

I actually like you IAI. I think Sotty is being too harsh on you for what I see as a fairly common argument between you and Benmage (although it's a little shorter than normal perhaps). Two townies go crazy on each other but eventually back off with both of them conceding that the other is likely town.

---

Can people tell me if this is normal with RedCoyote?

Of course.

No, I meant "can't keep track of other's posts." I meant "can't keep track of your own posts." Because I think it's ridiculous that you voted Nikanor for not commenting on a mistake you yourself made.

Well, the whole reason I voted Sotty to begin with was because I missed IAI's post, not my own. I see what you're getting at though, you're talking about my Nikanor vote. There's not much to say that I didn't already say. If you don't buy that explanation you just quoted here, then you don't buy it. I don't think it's as simple as a "generic 'stop posting fluff'" vote. It was a little tongue in cheek too, you realize.

You're hanging this vote around my neck pretty hard. I mean, I'm not arguing that I had some sort of major beef with Nikanor or anything. It was just an early D1 vote. I don't know what more you want from that.

...But wait a minute. Why did you ask me this question? Because you didn't agree with my Furcolow read, or because of something else? (There is a very specific reason I'm asking this.)

Because I don't particularly care for Furcolow's posts either. The post you quoted was a good example, and it's what turned me off initially as well.

---

Jason thought (or so he says) there was a day cop claiming a guilty on him. I'd be defensive and react strongly too...

Then we clearly have different approaches to the game. Since your side is seemingly winning out, it's probably good that your reaction is in line with the majority.

This is odd. If he really was a say cop and got a guilty, then of course he should claim. That's a cop's job.

Huh? On D1? That early in the game? With no clear lynch candidate? A Cop isn't intended to be a 1-to-1 cancel out of a scum role in any mafia game I've ever played, but certainly not in a game this size.

Jason's stumbling is now providing some justification, but I fail to understand how jason's reaction is scummy, rather than just a reaction from someone who is busy and didn't read the setup. Just like Benmage who didn't know about the instaflips.

Look at the situation again:

Cliffnotes version

Nik: I'm a cop; jason is maf.
RC: Be serious.
king: Why did you claim?
Fur: wtf?
Nik: No, of course I'm not cop.
jason: LIE! He's not a daycop or he would know my role... vote: nikanor
jason: Okay, he admits to lying but I am still going to vote him because that was reckless! You don't even have a case against me! Why did you fake a claim, scum?
Elmo: ...didn't you already know he was lying?
jason: ...uh, yeah, but he admited to it. That's all I was saying.
Nik: Yeah, I do have a case.
jason: Oh... maybe you do have a case but it's not much of one! Also we know you lied about your role... but I didn't know it was all vanilla. I knew you were wrong with your claim though, that's why I was voting. Oh well, nothing to see here, back to Elmo.
Elmo: jason, do you see how your language was awkward?
jason: Yes, but I knew he was lying the whole time... other people said they didn't.

If jason would've just said that Nikanor's not a Cop or that he's lying and then voted him, that would've been understandable. The problem is him trying to clarify his statements after the fact with stuff like, "Okay he admits to lying but he doesn't even have a case!" All Nikanor had talked about up to that point had been why he was voting jason. He has to clarify his language three different times. In my opinion, a townie would've said something like, "Whoops. Good catch, Nikanor. I missed that this setup was all vanilla."

On a similar note, I notice mongoose completely ignored Nikanor's claim. mongoose later admitted that he "didn't know the setup", so,

mongoose

, did you miss Nikanor's claim?

---

I have been thinknig this overnight.. If Nik was seriously down to business like he says he was... why would he have to fake claim a daycop to try and justify keeping his vote on me which was random at the start but now 'serious' business.

You do realize he was probably joking before you freaked out?

---

It's not. That's the problem.

I'm just being lovable ol' me. I can't help it that Mina can't get me off her mind. It's a curse.

---

Pecy’s 1 post of content is all good?

It was, what's the problem?

Does anyone at this point not think IAI is a huge, wasted slot,

TOWN

-noob?

Yeah, I don't think that. I think he's an okay guy. I think you're the one who's wasting time tunnelling on a slot you supposedly see as town.

---

town-reads:
percy
oso
myself

I thought you told Percy I was one of your town reads. You seem to be all over the place, Furcolow.

[RedCoyote]

Sotty is right on the above post.

I'll make a better post later. I'm a bit tired at the moment. I only came back because I forgot a vote count in another game.

[RedCoyote]

What would you expect him to do then for it to seem real?

You fess up (that you don't know the setup) and then you drop it. I don't get why he had to beleaguer the point. He wasn't in any sort of threatening situation. It's paranoid looking. The worst possible damage that could've been done had he not started flailing his arms was that he'd have been lynched as a VT and then the town would've been all over Nikanor.

In my opinion, jason's freaking out is more in line with what he'd do as a Goon if he felt like he was being threatened. He immediately threw a post up saying that Nikanor didn't know his "proper role" and voted as opposed to calmly reading all the posts after the claim. Then, almost anticipating being called out for making such a hasty vote, he feels the need to correct himself and reinforce his vote with complete bs (that Nikanor had never made a case on him).

It doesn't fit for me, Sotty.

What happened to the Nikanor wagon?

Like I told Mina, it wasn't anything major. He seemed to be tunnelling, but it's nothing to rest a case on, in my opinion.

---

Jason just comes across to me as a bit clueless and lost. His votes and accusations thus far seem like someone who hasn't got a handle on the game at all.

You know why this is, right? Because he's scum. He has completely knowledge of the game, and it's throwing him off exactly what he's "supposed" to say as a VT.

---

Neither looks particularly good to me. IaI for his meltdown (which I hate to admit does point to a townie coming unhinged under pressure from my experience

This is getting on my nerves a bit. "IAI doesn't look town because of his meltdown. The meltdown makes him look town, though."

Pick a side.

I'd bet money right now that if Zach opened the mafia quick-topic for pre-Day 1 discussion, the fact that this is a vanilla game came up. In my mind there is a decent chance none of the jason/IKD/Furcolow trio is scum.

That's a pretty good point. I hadn't considered this. Still, it's a pretty big assumption to write three people off for. You'd also be writing off mongoose for this, right Oso? He admitted to the same thing.

I can more easily agree to the "if one flips scum, the others look more townie" idea though.

---

We have about 2 weeks still to lynch, so this isn't damning, but JasonT should have his vote out somewhere by now.

Agreed.

---

My side? What side is that, exactly?

That jason was acting like a normal VT.

Also, of course a daycop with a guilty should claim. What if (s)he's the first NK? Sure there's an argument for waiting for a little while to observe them, but I don't see why it's a bad idea.
And anyway, aren't you saying that Jason is the bad guy here? He's the one that said it was scummy to claim so early, iirc.

The entire argument is moot given the setup, so it has no bearing on anything relating to jason or this game as a whole.

How is this different to Benmage vs. IAI? Especially with the "forgot" comment.

I don't see the connection. I don't care for Benmage and his over-the-top anatagonism towards you, but I don't know if that makes him scum or not. IAI seems townie to me.

---

as I said, I am the popular wagon.. this all feels like a easy jump on to me.

Poor you.

---

There is alot of irrelevant and silly stuff, along with some questionable points (like his votes on sotty and nikanor, I didn't quite catch the reason for those). However there has been alot of stuff I think is townie behavior as well.

Talk about fencesitting. This sounds like you're laying the groundwork to get onboard the RC wagon. I have no idea what "irrelevant and silly stuff" you're talking about. The so-called "questionable points" is just a buzz word for you meaning, "Hey, I don't feel like reading this player thoroughly, but I know someone else brought this point up at one time or another, so, yeah, just consider me seconding it".

---

Mina, I have a town read on Locke because I have agreed with everything he has posted so far. Simple really.

...but he said he didn't understand the wagon on me. Explain, please.

---

oh
well, if you know him on a personal level, what do you find his role to be?

She just said she thought he was town based on meta. Fur, this is the third or fourth time I've been unimpressed with you.

---

Question for the group, did the following strike a nerve with anyone?

I

almost

made a comment about it. I stopped because I understood what she was saying. It was kind of out of the blue though.

---

The RC wagon is meh, as I don't really find him suspicious. As far as I can tell the whole wagon is just based on gut and meta.

This is the comment I was looking for. This is the best summary of my wagon yet. Bear in mind that Mina and Mime (Kscope) have never even played with me before.

---

What do both of you think of IAI and myself. Please repeat if you've previously stated...i just wanna keep everything fresh.

Scroll up to my last comment for Percy in this post.

What is quite telling?

jason said that Nikanor was lying about him because he's not scum and votes him. A couple of minutes later he says, "i see above he is lying" refering to Nikanor admitting the obvious fact that there is no Cop in the game. As Elmo pointed out, there was no need for the second post. The second post shows jason's first post to be a complete sham. The first post is just a forced reaction.

In other words, it's like the second Nikanor says he's a Cop with a guilty on jason, jason reacts with a revote and a protest without so much as thinking about it. He has to because he's scum. If he would've taken two seconds to think about it, as I think a townjason would have, he would've realized it was just a dumb joke.

dry-fit and RC are both good lynches.

7. RedCoyote -null
9. Mina -null
10. Furcolow –worth policying
15. KaleiÐoscøpe –null
12. Imkingdavid – null to scummy
5. Percy-100% scum
8. Locke Lamora-scum
14. Dry-fit - scum

These contradict. Explain.

---

***********I want everyone to weigh in on their view of Dry-fit in their next post.

Not a fan. I wouldn't be upset if he was lynched.

---

Furcolow seems to like any lynch that either is generally agreed upon by the majority, or that threatens him.

Agreed.

---

He's just so totally unoffensive and middle-of-the-road though. Literally almost everyone who's been posting regularly has found something to take issue with or press or do something somehow.

I don't like jason or Furcolow. Something doesn't sit right with me about Sotty still. I don't care for Dry-fit much. mongoose just tickled my fancy a little bit a possible scum member. I boldly claimed that IAI is townie looking. I think Oso, Percy, and you have all done well enough for now (at least until this post that is).

I can see why you feel the way you do, but given that this is the first time I've heard this argument, you can imagine my skepticism. Nikanor has been the only player who has been able to adequately describe my wagon so far, and this post absolutely solidifies his point.

---

I don't think furc is a viable lynch. Not enough interested...Not for the first lynch at least.

Why are you trying to cut a potential Furcolow lynch off at the knees? I'd love to see his wagon move up to the top. Him being ignored by some of the more active players has been criminal. I think a lot of players here are currently phoning this game in.

---

I still like the RC wagon because RC has not convinced me otherwise to not keep my vote on him.

Huh? How am I supposed to convince you of anything if you don't ask me anything? I was ambivalent about your vote until here. I'm not a mind reader. I assumed you were actively reading my posts and eventually going to start making points against me. I also assumed that someone would actually force you to back up your positions, but so far everyone has been content to pile on against me given that it's the easiest thing to do (read: Sotty, Benmage, Furcolow, mongoose, and to an extent Elmo and Percy). At least Mina has been upfront about voting me on the basis of gut. You've just been, and continue to be, an enigma.

[RedCoyote]

Then in post #169, he even throws a half ass defense for dry-fit for no reason whatsoever.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. No, I may not have been as verbal about Dry-fit (mostly because I've been working my ass off to both sell this jason lynch and defend myself in the process), but in no way can you stretch that post to his defense. I've not been particularly satisfied with Dry-fit, and I won't cry if he gets lynched either. Then again, I can think of at least 7 people who I'd be happy to have strung up. That's just how I roll.

You should really try to call me KScope, because I doubt many people know who you mean if use my other name

I know... it makes me nostalgic though. <3

[RedCoyote]

Unvote

;

vote: Furcolow

The jason wagon has become too controversial to continue. If you aren't convinced by now, you probably won't be. This doesn't change the fact that an alternative to the Dry-fit wagon, regardless how you feel about Dry-fit, is beneficial to the long-term game. Furcolow is a great alternative. He's arguably the most opportunistic player here (arguably because he's competing with Benmage for the title), is throwing up senseless, unexplained scum lists and positions that contradict one another, and is, in general, manufacturing activity to look as though he's paying closer attention than he actually is (by this I mean he's missing obvious things and shrugging them off, pretending like it's no big deal).

All this said, I'm fairly content with the voting activity we have from everyone today.

[RedCoyote]

I wasnt sure why people would say RC was scum, but I dislike his vote on me and can see why he would as scum.

"I don't know why people say RC is scum, but he's voting me so I can see it now."

[RedCoyote]

italicized: he's not SATISFIED with dry-fit... on his scumteam?
underlined: him not crying... over a player lynched? why would he want to cry at all? i dont get the thought process of even having to say that.

They're turns of phrases. Obviously they aren't meant to be taken literally.

---

Furcolow is absolutely all over the place. Not just in the above post, but throughout this entire game. He's on full panic mode now and letting every emotion go that he can. He's a complete loose cannon. If you haven't paid as much attention to his posts throughout this game, you owe it to yourself to check him out in isolation. If he's town, he's too weak-willed and emotional. Every time I've looked the other way when someone has tried to appease everyone he could, I've regretted it. In general I've found that scum are more likely to placate in a manner similar to Fur.

We don't need several days to use our second lynch. Three or four should suffice. The mafia will get one kill regardless. I'd rather use one lynch properly then have posts like IAI just made where he said that he thinks Dry-fit is town but he's content lynching a town read just for the opportunity to use the second lynch (this was a big red flag to me, by the way).

[RedCoyote]

Scumreads

RedCoyote
Sotty7
Dry-fit
imkingdavid

Percy, what changed (referring to your Dry-fit read) since this?

[RedCoyote]

It's probably easier to look off the wagon than it is to look on it. Immediately I feel better about jason now, rightly or wrongly. Dry-fit may have been inevitable, but it still needed a hammer. I feel worse about Percy. On the wagon, I feel pretty good about Oso (fitz) and Kscope. Locke is unchanged (this is good). The opportunists on Dry-fit's wagon (be them town opportunists looking to help themselves or scum opportunists looking to score points on an inevitable lynch) are Fur, IAI (even he admits to this), and, I'd argue, Sotty. Sotty and IAI are particularly interesting, because they both practiced a in a bit of a slap fight throughout the game.

I wonder if Dry-fit was thrown under the bus as a cruel, calculating strategy, because it sure as heck didn't seem like the scum were falling over themselves to rescue their downtrodden comrade. They'd have wanted to stamp this fire out before it got started. If I was scum and I was trying to stop a Dry-fit wagon from gaining momentum, what would I do? Let's go back to the beginning...

Spoiler: Dry-fit notes

Dry-fit wagon starts with

Oso

. It looks very genuine.

IAI is one of the players I suspect the most

[...]

Furculow's posts up to this point have been terrible. He asks people to tell him which wagon is best, jumps on one of the biggest wagons, and then suggests we name all the scum and set up chain lynches.

However, that does look like a slip by jason.

Unvote. Vote: jasonT1981

Dry-fit

calls out Fur, IAI, and jason here. Of these, I suspect that there might be a partner here. My pick is Fur. This is a good post to remember.

Fur

votes Dry-fit in response. Doesn't feel genuine whatsoever.

Locke

and

Kscope

both make their anti-Dry-fit opinions known on this page, both of them seem genuine. Locke's vote in particular is good given that it wouldn't change.

Sotty

comes up not too long after, and interestingly she mentions that Dry-fit is her second biggest suspect and that Locke and Kscope are her best town reads. This is almost too coincidental. She was alone on the Nikanor wagon. She was backing up the Dry-fit wagon, and she thought the two most recent proponents of the wagon were her biggest town reads. I think I took issue with this at the time, but I never followed up on it. Locke and Kscope had given very few posts and opinions up to this point. Kscope in particular had been tight-lipped. For Sotty to claim them both as her biggest town reads is suspect just due to the fact that they weren't very active (nevermind that they both happened to be right in their Dry-fit suspicions).

Next couple of posts by

Fur

are pushing Dry-fit too hard to feel genuine. Given that anyone who has suspected Fur has had to face his wrath, he doesn't really get points for going after Dry-fit. It feels too much like a player who has trouble focusing when others bring heat on him.

Also need to mention that

IAI

,

Mina

, and

Elmo

are all ignoring the early stretches of the Dry-fit wagon. I'm not going to speak as to whether they are actively ignoring them or not, just that they miss out on any early town points for acknowledging this wagon.

The next post I want to bring up is

Percy's

195. The most important thing here is what's not said. Again we have Dry-fit being largely ignored... but here's the kicker. Dry-fit is on Percy's short scumlist. Who is on his townlist? Oso, Kscope, and Locke. Percy hadn't mentioned Dry-fit at all since his wagon started, and we know that both Kscope and Locke are still very inactive at this point. This is the same issue I had with Sotty. This is Percy trying to get points for supporting the Dry-fit wagon without really making it known. Could one or both of them be trying to keep the Dry-fit wagon from succceeding by throwing a bunch of other arguments on the tracks?

A lot of nothing for a while after this.

Oso

makes another post against Dry-fit, further cementing the fact that he's town in my eyes. Percy and Sotty both make new posts, neither of them really address Dry-fit significantly despite him being their second biggest suspect. Dry-fit makes a post asking Elmo about me. Null.

Fur

and

Benmage

both jump on Dry-fit. Neither of them look particularly good or bad. I have to just say null again. Fur moves his vote far too often to be acknowledged as though he has an honest opinion on something. Benmage looks better in comparison. The one thing I will give Benmage though (I think this is why Benmage and Kscope have both just posted recently that Benmage is very town with Dry-fit's flip) is that, while Oso may have started the Dry-fit wagon, Benmage was the one to bring it to the forefront.

Elmo

just echoes Kscope in 279 and 286.

For some reason

Sotty

acts surprised that the Nikanor wagon wasn't going anywhere despite her not pushing it and Nikanor not looking very scummy.

IAI

is seemingly almost too absentminded to be scum. I don't mean this in a bad way; I'm sure he's a very bright person. I just mean within the context of this game he's stumbling far too much to seem as though he's concocting his posts. Even though he defends me and Dry-fit a lot, he's bring Dry-fit to the forefront of the game rather than adding more noise (Percy, Sotty).

And then... Bingo.

I haven't had a chance to read the RC or Dry-fit wagons close enough to commit.

Scumreads

RedCoyote
Sotty7
Dry-fit
imkingdavid

Can you say smoking gun?

I knew that scumlist felt very strange to me. I even mentioned it before Dry-fit was lynched. Juxtaposing these two posts, one can clearly see that

Percy

is caught lying at worst or fabricating posts at best. His list was completely out of the blue to begin with, but there was no need for him to call both me and Dry-fit as persons of interest on his scumlist if he "hadn't had a chance to read our wagons close enough". Percy will likely argue that his list was based on gut reads or that he was more focused on Benmage, but the truth is that Percy talked with me a great deal. He said that he though Locke and Kscope were both very town looking (and the only things these two players had effectively done was criticize me and Dry-fit).

The rest is just the tail end of a for sure wagon at this point. Fur and me are beating our chests.

Baby Spice

and

Lrdwhyt

both replace in okay. You can't really read them because they're focusing on the beginning of the game. I don't propose to read either of them very closely in the context of the Dry-fit lynch. I like Lrdwhyt slightly more than Baby Spice mostly because I liked kingdavid more than mongoose.

Mina, Elmo, and Nikanor are wild cards. I didn't really address them in the above overview because I cannot really draw any conclusions. Of this group I'd only say I have a gut town read on Nikanor. Mina and Elmo could honestly go either way. Mina has made decent posts, but she has been far too absent from the major events in this game (namely the Dry-fit lynch). Elmo feels like Kscope (which is good) except that he's consistently arriving late to the party. He doesn't really have a significant voice of his own.

tl;dr = Percy is horrible. Sotty looks bad. Fur looks bad. Kscope, fitz, Locke, jason, IAI, and Benmage all look better. Everyone else is pretty much unchanged with this lynch.

[

Town

]-fitz-Benmage-IAI---Locke--Kscope-jason--Nikanor--Lrdwhyt-Mina-[

∙

]-Elmo-Baby-----Furcolow----Sotty--Percy--[

Scum

]

---

In regards to myself, I'm a very realistic person, and I'm not in a good position. I put myself in this position by being too headstrong on jason and not open enough to what was going on around me. I'm an acceptable lynch, frankly, and I can't really blame the town if I'm chosen here. I created this post to make it up to y'all for my lack of objectivity in the middle of this game. All that I ask is, if you do lynch me, to go back and comb through this post. These are honest assessments from an honest, dead townie. If you don't lynch me, then I strongly recommend that we go after Percy, Sotty, or Fur, in that order.

Vote: Percy

[RedCoyote]

Goddamn, you sound town here.

I wish I could say the same of you.

I know we were kind of in the same boat in regards to Dry-fit, but I just see you as significantly more contrived in your positions. I never said that Locke and Kscope were huge town reads for me. I admit I was guilty of playing pattycake with the Dry-fit wagon by supporting it without really analyzing it, but I never claimed that Locke and Kscope were on my town list. I felt pretty good about Locke, but Kscope had always been rather null. Further, I never went out on a limb to say that I needed to re-read Dry-fit when I already put him on a short scum list. That's just so fake sounding. Despite my lack of getting involved with the Dry-fit wagon, I always kept tabs on it and him. I just always thought it was an inferior wagon to jason and, later, Fur. You, on the other hand, I don't buy the idea that you were so wrapped up with Benmage or Sotty that you didn't know what was going on with me or Dry-fit, especially not when you had already called both of us out and had had multiple posts arguing with me.

[RedCoyote]

Vote Benmage

Benmage and Jason are the lynch. Not Percy, not obv town. Just those two scum.

Ugh, you know, Baby might not be a bad lynch. Benmage and jason would be pretty bad follow-up lynches, and Percy is far from obvtown. This is such an awkward read on the game though... so awkward that it may just have to be coming from a VT.

---

Reread the thread:

My Top 2
Percy & Nikanor

Runner Ups: Red, Baby Spice, and to a lesser degree, Furcalow, Mina, and Lrdwhyt

Wait, wait, wait. What happened to Sotty? She's a town read for you now?

---

RedCoyote's voting Nikanor for not pointing out his own error was a dumb vote.

You and Mina have been the only two players to make a big deal over something so trivial. I want to say it's indiciative of a sloppy skim through the game, but I actually think Mina is putting forth an honest effort into her analysis. I mean, you could've very easily put a little trollface at the end of that post. Although I genuinely didn't like Nikanor's start, it wasn't some big thing.

---

Considering how haaaaard it was to lynch Dry Fit I am weary of the Percy wagon because of it's speed. Yeah deadline is somewhat near, but I dunno it feels off to me.

Fair enough, but given that it's loaded with most of your "biggest town reads", shouldn't that console you?

---

For example, saying how "Mina is so focused on me" when I hadn't really attacked him that hard. Repeatedly making forced jokes and talking to people like they're naughty little children. I can give a list of quotes, but it's so many little things.

Did you vote anyone besides me during the first part of the day? If you did, it wasn't for long. This goes back to your absence though, because, regardless of whether you intended to focus a lot of your energy on me or not, it looks that way due to long stretches of inactivity.

Also, I don't know what to say about the "naughty little children" comment except that I'm assuming this is derived from an intense infatuation coupled with some sort of father complex. XD
---

fitz's post 473 is well written. I'm glad he took the time to make this post today. There are parts that I disagree with (obviously the vote), but he's jumped into Oso's slot as a heavy town read very well.

There's a big omission though, and that's how exactly he has arrived at the position that Percy is town. I don't think this is a scummy omission though. I would just like him to address Percy with more depth given that Percy is still the biggest wagon.

---

Slap fight? This sounds like you are playing down the opening exchange I had with IAI in an effort to make it look scummy. Just come out and break down what you find scummy about it, these kind of subtle jabs don't look good.

After reading over the thread a little more closely, I kind of want to back away from this position. I tried to make it clear in my summary as well as the body of text, but I probably should've just went back and deleted this sentence altogether. I've been erratic on my IAI read, so I kind of deserve this hit. I am still curious as to why IAI has seemingly dropped you from his radar, but all in all I don't really think there's anything sinister between you and him anymore.

I explained both my town reads on KScope and Locke, do you have an actual issue with what I stated?

I did as you asked. I went back and read over your posts. I found that you talked with Locke about IAI and realized that y'all both have similar opinions toward him. You also answered a question he asked about Nikanor, and... that's it. No mention of Kscope whatsoever. I think you're being dishonest here, Sotty. Either you're being dishonest in saying that you actually had explained why Kscope and Locke were your town reads, or you're being dishonest on account of the original accusation I made.

You ask why this is scummy. The original premise of my post was to put myself in the shoes of a teammate of Dry-fit, remember? I propose that a teammate would've wanted to attempt at destroying the Dry-fit wagon before it got started. Despite how bad this makes me look, I think that you, Percy, and, to an extent, Fur, all look worse. What better way to destroy the Dry-fit wagon and keep yourself clean than to say that Locke and Kscope are your biggest townies reads (despite saying very little about one player and

nothing

about the other at that point), and claiming that Dry-fit is your second biggest scum read (but without going into depth about why and instead favoring to push Nikanor). Worse still, I don't think Nikanor is even a very great suspect.

---

Red. Again, seriously - you're playing different; why?

I don't know, Elmo. Do you mean different in the course of this game or different from Hoopla's game?

In particular this needs an explanation because all of those are pretty horrible reasons.

I'm sorry they're not as well thought out as "he sounds like an old man". Is there anything about Fur that strikes you as particularly town? It's hard for me to explain why exactly those things are scummy if we have such a fundamental difference of opinion.

I think we should be lynching someone off the wagon, but I'm not sure precisely how we narrowed it down to these two. Like, no-one has brought up Mina or Nikanor yet, and I don't know why.

These are almost as bad as Baby's suggestions. They seem completely arbitrary in light of Dry-fit's flip given that both of them were virtually removed from the discussion. Perhaps this is exactly why they speak to you, but I couldn't disagree more.

[RedCoyote]

The only thing scummy regarding percy IMO was his absence from the Dry-fit wagon. But that doesn't really mean anything as not everyone off the DF wagon can be scum and I would be surprised if there was scum on the DF wagon as well. The "big omission" is due to an absence of suspcion.

All due respect, fitz, but that doesn't really answer the question. Although I like you going after Sotty, it just doesn't seem like the most opportune time to do so. Further, when there have been allegations issued against Percy, you should address to some degree with either agreement, disagreement, or what have you. If Percy hasn't done anything scummy, why are we wrong for thinking so?

---

See, this makes no sense to me. How does calling out my two biggest town reads hurt the Dry-Fit wagon? I also voted Dry Fit in the end which is more than you did, so your stance that it makes me look worse is pretty ridiculous.

You did sneak a Kscope comment in there, my mistake. I retract that.

The bigger point is still that, like Percy, you throw Dry-fit in your post with as little involvement as possible. It's an out for you. It's a way for you to say, "surely I can't be scum, look at how quickly I was suspicious of Dry-fit". In reality, you didn't commit to the case, you, instead, committed to Nikanor. It's my opinion that Dry-fit's partners, not looking to outright stonewall this wagon, must've tried to dismantle it using subtly. There's nothing quite as subtle in this regard than acknowledging the Dry-fit wagon as great and then throwing everything you got at a player like Nikanor, who, as best as I can tell, is playing like typical Nikanor.

So Nikanor is tunnelling on jason with arguments that you don't consider to be very valid. I mean, come on, Sotty. Give me any game in the history of this website and you're bound to see at least one example of that. I just think it's a bit elementary for a case. Further, I think it's worse that you're still trying to rally others to the cause after Dry-fit's flip. It's too much of a shot in the dark. There are few connections between Nikanor and Dry-fit and the town's number one asset at this point is unquestionably playing off that flip. Further again, the fact that no one else has shown major interest in Nikanor at least for the time being should clue you in that it would probably be best to table the idea today.

And I'm hardly going to make a case against myself, Sotty. I recognize I don't look good in light of Dry-fit's flip. This is why I'm upping my viciousness a bit. There's a good chance I won't be around later, and it would be helpful for the town to get as much input from me as possible if that's to be the case.

---

Different from Hoopla's game.

One's a small, closed, mostly hand-picked game with quite a few power roles, and the other is a large, mountainous, mostly open sign ups game. I don't think I'm being different. I think the environments are probably as different as two games could be.

I don't see why at all. Your reasoning is completely independent from my opinions, which you still haven't given. You have just stated "Fur did X" and implied it's scummy without explaining why. Very probably we have different premises, which is best dealt with by stating yours.

I dispute that. He's being far too emotional, contrived, and flighty.

Furcolow is absolutely all over the place. Not just in the above post, but throughout this entire game. He's on full panic mode now and letting every emotion go that he can. He's a complete loose cannon. If you haven't paid as much attention to his posts throughout this game, you owe it to yourself to check him out in isolation. If he's town, he's too weak-willed and emotional. Every time I've looked the other way when someone has tried to appease everyone he could, I've regretted it. In general I've found that scum are more likely to placate in a manner similar to Fur.

When someone is as unprincipled as Fur is, I've found it to be a potential indicator of scum. I'm not just implying here, and I backed my rhetoric up with a vote.

---

RedCoyote, what makes you so sure of percy, yet you wouldn't vote dry-fit?

Unlike some people, I don't know how players will flip. I was very clear that I didn't want Dry-fit to be lynched before we had an alternative wagon. Since that advice wasn't heeded (which turned out to be a good call given Dry-fit's alignment), the best thing for the town to do is see who was trying to underhandedly sabotage the Dry-fit wagon, regardless of their votes. If you ask me, those three people are you, Sotty, and Percy.

[RedCoyote]

One in which you were a vanilla townie, attacked a bunch of people and then locked onto me for the rest of the game, the other in which you vaguely mumbled you kinda sorta didn't like some people, made a few ingratiating comments, and basically sat back waiting for a wagon to be provided. None of that is explained by a difference in setup, not least because you couldn't have known how many power roles were in the first game.

I thought I saw an early Sotty slip, but I had missed a post. Percy voted without giving a reason, but I ultimately had a different reason anyway. Regardless, that wasn't "provided". Then the jason wagon wasn't "provided". Nikanor was voting jason for completely unrelated reasons, and you pointed out something that I had also noticed. You didn't pursue, so I effectively led that attack. Later, jason wasn't trying very hard to push Fur. He made a few comments in his original vote, then left it there for several pages without mentioning it. I never referenced jason in my Fur vote either, so that was hardly "provided". Benmage's Percy vote here in the second phase was, again, a vote without reason. If anything Benmage's vote was just an extension of his bias attitude toward Percy throughout the game. I easily took ownership of this wagon, far from having it "provided" for me. If your underlying point here is that I'm not being aggressive enough, then I think you need to look over the evidence again. If your point is that I'm not the first official vote on these wagons, then you're being unreasonable.

If your hesitation on my case against Fur is simply because I didn't lay out quotes for you, then that's just a breakdown in communication. One needs only look at Fur's voting record, contradicting scumlists, and petulant behavior. I obviously have no inclination to do this for you or the game as a whole at the moment, but I'll keep it in mind tomorrow. I'd probably go as far as to say that you'd be the only player here that hasn't picked up on it (if someone else in the game has said they value Fur's play and/or they have trouble understanding why someone would be put off by his play, then I'll stand corrected). Either that or you're just deliberately giving me a hard time about it. It could very well be the latter though, because I do not think our playstyles or personalities mesh together very well at all.

[RedCoyote]

Welcome, Thor. Here's a sum up to the Dry-fit lynch from my perspective. I break it down by who I think had sincere interests in lynching Dry-fit and who did not. I touch on everyone at some point. The past few pages have mostly been arguments between the idea of lynching me, Percy, or Baby Spice.

---

fitz, Mina, Sotty, Fur ... they're all effectively saying, in one way or another, that Percy is town because they feel it in their gut. fitz, when pressed, is unable to tell us why he feels that Percy is town. Mina has admitted to as much. Elmo is blatantly ignoring Percy in favor of his narrow focus on me over some technical issue with my play.

why isn't Percy pushing a Red Coyote lynch, the most viable counterwagon to him and easiest target of all? He's set himself up for ages to vote RC. Instead, Percy suddenly backing away from the only viable wagon other than himself, and is

criticizing

the Red Coyote wagon.

Seriously, to anyone voting Percy, explain to me what his scum motivation would be for that.

He doesn't think he'll be lynched? I would imagine, regardless of his alignment, he'd feel the pressure to switch his vote, but the later he does it, the more sincere it looks.

[RedCoyote]

Red, who do you think are the 2 scum? At L-1 and scum like Percy not on your wagon, I'd like to hear this first.

Just go back to here for my final reads. Not much has changed except I would bring Thor and LrdWhyt down some and bring Mina up.

Based on Dry-fit I'd say Percy or Sotty.
Good all-around lynches would be Fur, Baby, and possibly Lrdwhyt.
On my wagon it didn't seem like Elmo or Thor put much effort into analyzing Percy, but I don't think either of these slots can be connected very well to the Dry-fit lynch. They're both wild cards.

But my best, honest read is that Percy slipped up in appeasing the Dry-fit wagon while trying his hardest to get it out of the spotlight. I mean, losing a teammate that early is the worst thing to happen to scum. It seems very likely to me that at least one of the scum was trying to cool the Dry-fit wagon off (Percy). The other was likely bussing (Sotty, Fur) or uninvolved with it at all (Thor, Baby, Elmo, LrdWhyt, Mina).

Good luck, town!

[RedCoyote]

Awesome! Good work to IAI, Benmage, and Equinox on nabbing that last scum. We were really getting worried in the Dead QT. gg all, and thanks to the Mod for running it.