The Return to Liten (Game Over)

[AlmasterGM]

Yo I'm LA till Sunday.

there shall be posts, though.

ps hello to everyone i know.

[AlmasterGM]

actually i have no idea why.

Vote: Data

feel free to fill me in anytime.

[AlmasterGM]

Yeah, honestly I'm not getting the dana wagon.

On the plus side, Nikanor is posting, so he's probably town.

[AlmasterGM]

man I love Furry so much.

Fortunately I am already voting Data so NO VOTING REQUIRED, but now I actually feel good about myself.

[AlmasterGM]

Data, who is scum?

[AlmasterGM]

At the moment, however, I don't find Data particularly scummy, but that's probably because I haven't read him too much in-depth yet. I'll try to get on that this afternoon, but I have homework to do first.

If Data flips town this guy is obvscum.

[AlmasterGM]

Why does that make him not scum?

[AlmasterGM]

Why town? Are you saying that you know that Data will flip town.

No, that's why I said "if." The point is Data WAS being scummy and Square gave absolutely no reason for why Data was town, so it reeked of setup for a "oh hay guyz, I told u he was town, now gimme town credz lol kthx" tomorrow.

And oh look, Data's claimin Vig and Square is looking mighty scummy.

I highly dislike the tone of Dana's last post. Reads to me as a "hey guys I knew he was this PR all along gimme credit for it plz".

Don't you think Square Obscure is doing this more?

Unvote. Vote: Square Obscure

[AlmasterGM]

Hacker, you keep just disowning every single possible wagon that comes up as "not being that good." It's page 10, Day 1. What do you want, cop-confirmed scum?

Who do you think is scum? Where should our votes be? Are you still backing that vote on LynchMePls you got from "skimming" the thread?

[AlmasterGM]

inb4OhNoesIWuzBlockeded! from Data.

Even so, this is still one of those "deal with it later" problems.

[AlmasterGM]

Awesome. I say the post creeps me out, you ask me to explain why, and then when I do, you don't like that I took the post apart to explain it. Hilarity.

LMAO this is hilarious ... and so true.

[AlmasterGM]

Bluh. I still would like a Data lynch, but we only have three days left. This is probably the next best thing:
Unvote. Vote: Bowser.

I don't like this vote, there are two decent wagons (SO and Nero Cain) running off something other than lurking. Voting for the chronic-lurker instead of one of these two is "meh."

What I said he took as scummy. What AGM said I took as scummy. Why is my questioning of AGM scummy but Moi's questioning is a town tell?

What's scummy about what I said?

That said, I still like SO more than Nero Cain because I think everything Nero does that people are saying is "scummy" could just as easily be labeled as "stupidity," whereas SO is actually being scummy straight up.

[AlmasterGM]

Data replacing out is scumtastic.

[AlmasterGM]

@Almaster - yes, Data replacing out is scumtastic. But, seeing as how we're not lynching Data today no matter whats, why don't you weigh in on something exciting - like, I dunno, which wagon you think is best, thoughts on Nero Cain, compliments about my awesomely manly beard, something.

Good idea. In fact, it's so good I ALREADY DID IT.

That said, I still like SO more than Nero Cain because I think everything Nero does that people are saying is "scummy" could just as easily be labeled as "stupidity," whereas SO is actually being scummy straight up.

[AlmasterGM]

So I'm looking at the vote count. Specifically, the Bowser wagon.

I don't like the reason for the wagon.

I don't like the people on the wagon.

I don't like the order people are on the wagon.

And I two other extremely viable wagons sitting right below it.

Why are people still voting Bowser again?

[AlmasterGM]

So I missed the end of D1, but it looks like it went well.

I'm busy right now, but when I get a chance I will go read a bit. Whoever tried to destabilize the SO wagon is in for a punishing.

[AlmasterGM]

what the fuck

[AlmasterGM]

/prod received.

I was hit with a tsunami of things that require doing and cannot post anything until Saturday. If this means I shall be replaced, I'm am truly sorry (I have only replaced out of one game before in over 15 months on the site), but shit happens. Otherwise, you will hear from me Saturday.

I can fully relate. Hope you get stuff done!

[AlmasterGM]

Vote: Twomz

I am going with Twomz-scum. The arguments I think are strongest are:

1) ISO reads like lots of coasting on days 1/2. He doesn't pick it up until D3, where two of his buddies are dead.

Also, inb4omgurhypocritical: here's a difference between not posting and coasting.

2) He was late on the SO wagon.

3 I agree that 697 was overtly defensive.

I also get a gut scum read on him, which just reinforces the logical reasons why he would be scum.

With regards to TheAdmiral, I can understand one shitty shot (hell, I've made crappy Vig shots myself), but two in a row is unacceptable. If the shots don't start picking up in skill, he dies.

I also have this itching feeling that MoI is scum, but I can't put my finger on it. I will be investigating this more.

[AlmasterGM]

I also don't like the way Thor is interacting with Twomz. It's lots of vague but elaborate dancing - e.g., I COULD be on the lynch (but I'm not), that COULD be defensive (but we don't know), and now let me ask some irrelevant question so we stop talking about Twomz for a bit.

I could easily buy into these two being a scum pair.

[AlmasterGM]

Apathy should post more. Or get lynched.

OR SHOT.

[AlmasterGM]

Also holy shit ISO Cogito Ergo Sum, he's like 70% silence, 20% noise, 10% content, and 100% scummy.

[AlmasterGM]

@Almaster - so you think Twomz *was* being overdefensive towards MoI?

Yes.

Still we need to lynch CES, AGM apparently sees it now.

He'd also be a mighty fine target for a shootin. I think the other wagons are more interesting, atm.

I also like leaving him live because he's so obviously vigbait that if he or like one/two other people don't get shot, then TheAdmiral is absolutely positively SK.

[AlmasterGM]

CES is posting on the site, but not here.

Unvote. Vote: CES

[AlmasterGM]

TWOMZ SHOULD STILL DIE THOU

[AlmasterGM]

@CES - The first thing you should do is explain your coasting the

entire game.

@Slaxx - if neither Twomz nor CES is scum, who is?

[AlmasterGM]

It's stupid because it's an elaborate framework for making appeals to plausibility, mixing a priori and a posteriori reasoning and ignoring people's playstyles.

Wait...what?

1) Isn't all scumhunting an appeal to plausibility (e.g., scum are more or less likely to do this or that)?

2) How does it use a priori reasoning when all of the analysis involved is deduced from events that have occurred? Where does VC analysis claim anything to be objectively true independent of experiences?

3) Why does VC analysis intrinsically ignore playstyles? If somebody has a tendency to heavily bus/not bus as scum, then VC analysis could reveal that. Also, if scumhunting-by-playstyle is preferred, where are you doing any of that? Do you even know the playstyles of most of the people in this game? Show me the scum you have caught thus far in this game by doing meta analysis.

...I feel like you are just using big words that don't actually apply.

[AlmasterGM]

I have not. 22 posts over 15 pages (I replaced in on page 10, Day 3 started on page 25) is perfectly normal activity.

So we are going by number of posts and not content? That's convenient, seeing as most of your posts are one or two lines and don't even say anything.

[AlmasterGM]

Thanksgiving's around, gonna be a sloww time.

Anyway, I'm liking going back to Twomz.

Unvote. Vote: Twomz

There was never really any real reason to leave that wagon other than CES looked better, but now that's gone away, so.

[AlmasterGM]

Wait, what's this APC nonsense? Somebody explain, plz.

[AlmasterGM]

I don't like how Furry keeps making new wagons. They're not bad cases, but I'm not seeing anything from APC that's SOOO scumtastic that I need to vote for him RIGHT NAO. Twomz is still good.

[AlmasterGM]

Slaxx committing to a wagon. This is new and exciting.

It's also making me uneasy.

[AlmasterGM]

I feel like that was semi chainsaw semi dodging.

I could say the same about you with regards to Twomz --> APC.

How about you explain specifically why you don't like this wagon? Honestly, I think that feysal tie is pretty strong and a grounds for a lynch on its own. Not to mention general inactivity, sheeping the biggest bandwagons, teetering on the SO hammer, etc etc etc.

How about you explain how it is comparatively better than the Twomz wagon? Because right now my argument isn't, "APC is town," it's "why is APC scummy enough for me to ignore Twomz and go off in a totally new direction

again?

"

I am just echoing what Furry said though. Seriously.

So, if this wagon were to be bad, we would lynch him and not you. Nice coverage.

[AlmasterGM]

1. Exactly, you sat around and waited for something else to crop up that wasn't twomz and now suddenly you're all giddy. This is what makes me uneasy, if you had been meh-ing the whole game then I'd be like fine, but the fact that you only get case-happy when its on this rando out of nowhere that ISN'T this really scummy dude makes me think its a distraction.

MINIMALLY, saying I'm chainsawing is absurd.

2. Opposite is true - if he's scum he can't claim PR because CC means CERTAIN death (this round or next). VT is the better claim. Also, how is this even defense, "oh he claimed VT he must be town." wut? SINCE WHEN.

3. Of course I am. People are connected, and it makes sense to analyze and plan lynches around those connections (e.g., if this then that, and so on). you're not gonna be like, "well, this lynch could happen and we could get result x or y but LETS IGNORE ALL THAT BC WE CANT SET UP LYNCHES. START FROM SQUARE ONE, GO."

[AlmasterGM]

I am sticking with Twomz. I don't like the justifications for the APC wagon enough to move to it. I also don't like two of the people on it (Slaxx and ThAdmiral). Furry has good posts but I don't like all the wagon shifting nonsense. Twomz hasn't actually done anything to redeem himself other than claim VT (hurrrrrrrrr) and be supposedly out shadowed by these other people (APC who I don't want to vote for durrrrr).

There is also the benefit that if Twomz flips scum this game will basically be on cruise control post VC analysis, whereas the apc flip does pretty much nil.

[AlmasterGM]

ALSO regarding all the theory discussion, SK said in the queue thread that this was a mostly normal setup with a few twists thrown in. JUST FOR REFERENCE.

[AlmasterGM]

THAT'S RIGHT SLAXX YOU CAN STILL BUS YOUR BUDDY. YOU WON'T GET ANY TOWN CRED AT THIS POINT, BUT YOU WILL AT LEAST NOT BE AUTO-SCUM TOMORROW.

[AlmasterGM]

Bad reason to vote someone - i.e. the hope that they turn up scum so their is more information.
In another site I play at "information lynches" are frowned upon for good reason.

If you have two relatively close choices and one of them leads to data goldmine and the other leads to nowhere, you choose the former of course.

Not that APC is really even that close to Twomz in my mind, though. LMP's scum-o-meter is basically spot on, except for I am a lot more skeptical of Furry now than he is.

[AlmasterGM]

[quote="MOI"]So you are saying that a Null tell is making you doubt your read on Twomz? Because being all helpful regarding the deadline when faced with a lurker alternate wagon hardly qualifies as something other than Null.[quote]
Good posting. Slaxx needs a bullet. HEAR THAT ADMIRAL? SOMEBODY NEEDS A BULLET.

[AlmasterGM]

EBWOP:

So you are saying that a Null tell is making you doubt your read on Twomz? Because being all helpful regarding the deadline when faced with a lurker alternate wagon hardly qualifies as something other than Null.

Good posting. Slaxx needs a bullet. HEAR THAT ADMIRAL? SOMEBODY NEEDS A BULLET.

[AlmasterGM]

there is no way he is not shooting. there are so many delicious targets to shoot. slaxx, apc, you name it.

[AlmasterGM]

Guys, there's no way SaintKerrigan didn't give FULL fakeclaims in a game with this much flavor. Stop with the nonsense.

Don't worry, though, we can still lynch Twomz.

[AlmasterGM]

b) I am not catch-up reading right away. I wish I could, but I cant. I will read Spyrex's posts soon.. but that is all.

But you DID have time to read the comprehensive list of rules.

HMM.

[AlmasterGM]

It is more clear now that I actually read THIS page instead of just skimming it. But yeah, I usually don't read rules, so I admit I was surprised by the finding of daytalk. This means more headaches.

[AlmasterGM]

and by this page i mean last page

[AlmasterGM]

Public Service Announcement: The next person to use or suggest using flavor as evidence will be lynched immediately. Thank you for your understanding.

[AlmasterGM]

(3) apathyplusCUPCAKES: ThAdmiral, Furry, Slaxx

LOL.

Hammer on Twomz pl0x.

[AlmasterGM]

unvote

Vote Twomz

It was going to happen anyway. Do I get to gloat if he flips town or what?

Why would you gloat? Two of your partners are dead and you're next on the hitlist.

[AlmasterGM]

Also, why are we making anti-hit lists instead of just hit lists.

[AlmasterGM]

@camm - Normally, I would agree. But ThAdmiral has shown a very uncanny ability to pick crappy targets. So I think giving him too much leeway is a bad idea. Also, I don't see why all your potential problems (e.g., roleblock etc) can't be solved by giving a few targets.

@Slaxx - oh yes i'm totally tunneling OH WAIT IM NOT EVEN VOTING FOR YOU HERP DERP.

[AlmasterGM]

Yeah, but Slaxx needs to buddy, so let's give him some slack (LOL PUN).

[AlmasterGM]

I'll take it.

[AlmasterGM]

Vote: nopointinactingup

AKA SLAXX.

[AlmasterGM]

Ok I could've SWORN I made a case on Slaxx, but I went back and looked and it turns out I did not. I did, however, have many interactions with him and I kept thinking everrrry time, "wow this guy is scummy."

I'll think about it more after we get a replacement and see what he says.

[AlmasterGM]

Hey, just checking in to say I have finals until Tuesday. I can probably get one post in before then, and then activity will pick up dramatically afterwards. Sorry but that's just how it rolls.

[AlmasterGM]

Okay, V/LA (aka finals) over. Posting starts today.

I'll start with the claim, it's VT aka SOB operative aka combat operative. Flavor is that minus being an obnoxious badass I don't have any special powers.

Reading sometime today.

[AlmasterGM]

HMMMMMM.

I hate vote count analysis. It's wrong all the time, either because people are actively manipulating it, or passively just doing whatever the fuck they want without thinking about saving their buddies.

I also have this tingling gut sense Magna is scum. He just doesn't feel right.

So I'm not biting Hacker for now.

What I DOOOO buy, however, is chesskidscum.

1) Slaxx was scummy
2) Slaxx did the whole LOL IM SCUM AND IM REPLACIN OUT LOL move.
3) He hasn't even read most of the game, and why bother cause when you're scum you don't really have an incentive to hunt DOO YOU. And I don't buy "i'm busy" because if you're busy don't replace into a 35 page game.
4) when he does read, all he does is call people town left and right, which is 1) easy as shit to do 2) builds cred with those people for no reason
5) says he is okay with a bunch of random lynches for no reason
6) offers to sheep vote, aka give up responsibility

Now, MAYBE hacker is scum. But I'm not glossing over all that because of some VCA that I don't like.

Vote: chesskid

I WILL NOW TAKE YOUR CRITICISMS, TY.

[AlmasterGM]

Also, the more I go back and look at it, the more shiny and delicious a Slaxx (aka chesskid) plus Magna scumteam looks.

HMMMM. HMM. HM.

[AlmasterGM]

if by "looking at me" you mean going, "agm is scum LOL" ... then I'm sure you will be.

did you ever even say why you think camm and thor are scum?

cause I dont see anything.

[AlmasterGM]

how is the case "derpy," all the arguments are true. you're basically just saying, "he's acting too obviously stupid to be scum," which is a TERRIBLE conclusion.

[AlmasterGM]

chesskid please, just post for me in ONE POST WHY CAMM IS SCUM.

then, IN A DIFFERENT POST, say why Thor is scum.

I don't care if all you do is requote what you already said. JUST DO IT.

OR DONT YOU WANT TO BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT WILL LOOK LIKE A LAME ONE-LINER? HMMMMMM?

[AlmasterGM]

I don't disagree, but why does this matter?

[AlmasterGM]

O RLY?

How did we go from this:

It's all in that post I had.

to this:

I'll go justify my scumread on Camn tomorrow.

[AlmasterGM]

Also, explain to me how one bullshit vote = scum.

[AlmasterGM]

Fine. Why aren't you VOTING FOR HIM THEN?

[AlmasterGM]

Oh wait but the non-existant case on camm > one bullshit vote from thor.

WHAT IS THIS.

[AlmasterGM]

let's pretend I'm brand new to mafia and you need to explain, in layman's terms, why camm/NC is scummy.

go.

[AlmasterGM]

im not happy because there IS NO FUCKING CASE. It's just you saying, "blah blah is scummy" without explaining why it's scummy. Put a LITTLE effort into the game, would you?

[AlmasterGM]

Disagreed.

Obviously. But to each his own. If you were scum, do you think VCA would be a useful weapon against you, seeing as you are very familiar with it and thus know exactly how to manipulate it?

So you are willing to ignore the interactions that I showed?

No, I just think chesskid is acting scummier (and also stupider).

[AlmasterGM]

Where is Furry?

I'm still waiting on chesskid, also.

[AlmasterGM]

because they are already down two members and don't want to bus?

[AlmasterGM]

chesskid is clearly the optimal vig target.

[AlmasterGM]

NOOOO.

CHESSKID. NEEDS. VIGGING.

After that you can stop.

[AlmasterGM]

Also, the MoI-chesskid interaction seems fake as hell. I'm becoming incredibly convinced that these are a scum pair. MoI especially.

[AlmasterGM]

THERE IS TIME. GOGOGOGO.

[AlmasterGM]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to yet another exciting game of "Why is MagnaofIllusion still alive?!" We're excited to have you all as contestants today! Without further ado, here's how the game works:

Normally, MagnaofIllusion is dead very early in the game. This time, however, he's ... still alive.

Discuss and win a fabulous prize!

Also,

Vote: chesskid

.

[AlmasterGM]

I forgot about HH being a roleblocker!

Note to self: no actual DIRECTED vig of scum was possible this game. Only directed town-vigs.
Any discussion of directed vigging should be revisited with this in mind....

scum-motivation is fully solidified in re: directing vig kills.

Lets see if I can find any...

If this exists, it'll be solid GOLD.

I'm going to go comb MoI. I know he's clever enough to evade VCA, but maybe he slipped up in there.

[AlmasterGM]

...except I click on his iso and all the posts are a fuckin mile long. MAYBE I'll do it.

[AlmasterGM]

let's lynch chesskid.

[AlmasterGM]

magna, all your arguments reduce to, "your scumhunting is bad (you aren't doing it, you are doing it on the wrong people, yada yada)."

so, your metric for determining scumminess is very clealy: scumhunting.

NOWWWW explain to me how chesskid is NOT scummier than me in that respect. he doesn't scumhunt at all, he just chucks names around, and when you interrogate him on the issue he is totally non-responsive and just agrees to die. Explain. That. To. Me.

You're probably going to come back her and give me some meta bs about chesskid being a VI, but that's total crap in a game where we have THREE SCUM DOWN and plenty of wiggle room. this is VI/possible scum killin' time, not "wow somebody is questioning my towniness, they must be scum, let me powertrip on them" time.

Not to mention that even if you take the comparative issue out of the frame, your arguments are terrible. They are all based on superficial vacuum tells and don't analyze large-scale scum strategy or motivation at all.

I bus SO out of the blue but not my obv-gonna-die-partner HH ... what?
I'm "pushing" your lynch, but I've been voting chesskid for the past two days and have never even voted for you EVER... what?
I'm not scumhunting even though I have been grilling slaxx AKA CHESSID BEFORE IT WAS VI-CHESSKID for a while and have done plenty of other analysis ... what?
Weak appeal to VI-meta ... what?

BADCASE IS BAD. I want a chesskid scum flip sooo bad right now because if we are in 5-man scum team, those red little arrows are all gonna light up and point right at you.

[AlmasterGM]

This needs a separate post because it's what gets me the most:

Horrible push for the last two days against me based on gut? Check

PAR-A-NOID SCUM IS PARANOID. I never voted for you once. I've hardly even talked about you. I have been zoning the fuck in on chesskid's slot for 2 days now, but no, I'm not pushing for his lynch...I'm pushing for YOURS.

WUT.

This reeeeeeeeks of MoI-scum squirming that he might have ANY dirt on him whatsoever. And so he concocted the case on me as a giant OMGUS distractor.

I still want to lynch chesskid, though, because he is the correct lynch for today END OF STORY.

[AlmasterGM]

@AGM - how do you feel about the relative power levels of scum team PRs vs. Town PRs with MoI as scum and as claimed town role?

I don't think it matters. Commutor isn't that strong of the role. The town and the scum both have enough PRs that it's existance or non-existance would have neglible impact on setup balance.

also, did i misunderstand or was Almaster's defense that he has been tunneling on this slot for the last 3 days?

NO, you didn't misunderstand me. Your slot is the scummiest by a million billion miles. Nobody else even comes remotely close. It is the correct lynch no matter what game theory angle you look at it with. I will not rest until it burns in a giant fire. And THEN we can look at everything else.

[AlmasterGM]

AGM claimed commuter, dur.

That was MoI. I'm VT.

[AlmasterGM]

soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. chesskid.

[AlmasterGM]

soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. chesskid.

Double post deleted in spirt (because Mafiascum won't let me do it in actuality).

[AlmasterGM]

see this is why we are lynching chesskid.

[AlmasterGM]

chesskid what mechanism do you use to determine whether someone is scum or not?

[AlmasterGM]

yeah. die.

[AlmasterGM]

Magna if you lynch me and I flip town who do you lynch next?

[AlmasterGM]

Also, if I flip scum and the game isn't over who do you lynch?

[AlmasterGM]

yeah but I also want to hear from MoI.

[AlmasterGM]

I just went back and iso'd myself. Here's all the times when I even come CLOSE to calling you scum:

I also have this tingling gut sense Magna is scum. He just doesn't feel right.

Also, the MoI-chesskid interaction seems fake as hell. I'm becoming incredibly convinced that these are a scum pair. MoI especially.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to yet another exciting game of "Why is MagnaofIllusion still alive?!" We're excited to have you all as contestants today! Without further ado, here's how the game works:

Normally, MagnaofIllusion is dead very early in the game. This time, however, he's ... still alive.

Discuss and win a fabulous prize!

Also, Vote: chesskid.

THREE. POSTS. That's it. I ADMIT that it's mostly gut right now and not based on evidence, I say that I think there's a link between you and chesskid (and thus lynching chesskid would confirm or deny that suspicion), and then I throw out some LOLOBV-WIFOM and vote for somebody else.

And the right after them you say that I'm "pushing your lynch."

Calling it an overstatement doesn't even describe how far you are blowing this out of proportion. So when you come back and say, "wheres ur evidence scum ur accusing me" it's not even a fair question because there was no real accusation or attack in the first place, just a THOUGHT thrown out there.

[AlmasterGM]

Oh yeah, for some context the first quote, the entire rest of the post is me casing chesskid. The MoI-thing was a one liner where I say "I have this gut read on MoI BUT A BETTER, LEGIT READ ON CHESSKID."

And of course, all of this just makes me want to see a chesskid flip more, because if chesskid flips scum then we have MoI sitting here 1) defending the scum and 2) forming a massive wall-of-text counterwagon on someone who he used to think was town because the guy had a microscopic gut read on him and didn't think he was obvtown like everyone else.

[AlmasterGM]

I just DID answer the question. I said, YES, my suspicion is merely gut, WIFOM, and your potential connection to chesskid.

That's all it IS and all it's EVER BEEN. You are the one who overreacted and exploded it into a giant ordeal by saying I was "pushing your lynch."

[AlmasterGM]

Also, I find it INCREDIBLY ironic that you continually demand I "Put out or shut up" and produce evidence of your scuminess ... and then you proceed to post this:

Um … why exactly again should I justify my vote to you? I’m not trying to convince you that you are scum. I'm trying to convince everyone else.

Sup double standard.

[AlmasterGM]

There is really nothing I can say to not being on the HackerHuck wagon other than 1) thiis attack makes NO SENSE because if I was scum and willing to bus-park my vote on SquareObscure ALL DAY LONG D1, then why would I hesitate to bus HH as scum? I would NOT have waffled on that, and 2) SORRY, I SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE BUT I WASN'T.

This "AGM scum" is all little tells. This isn't D1 of a mini. We are on D5 of a large game. You need to look at the WHOLE BIG PICTURE. Like the fact that the thrust of this attack is just a giant OMGUS from the guy who I vaguely accused because he is paranoid 'cause he usually doesn't live this long. Like the fact that me bussing SO but not HH makes no sense. Like the fact that, comparatively, chesskid is a WAAAAAY better lynch because it gives us a metric ton of information, whereas a me-lynch tells us nothing because chesskid will still be the VI tomorrow and knowing I was town won't make him look worse because he already looks AS BAD AS POSSIBLE.

And then MoI is just going to dissapear into a giant text wall because that's what he does, and there will probably be some mislynch engineered on Thor or something and it'll be game over.

W/E it's been fun.

[AlmasterGM]

Well, RIGHT NOW I am so caught up the fact that MoI went from being very rational to completely irrational just because I suggested the possibility of him and chesskid being the scumteam that yes, I think Thor is town and those two scumbags are scum.

however, if chesskid were town, Thor would no longer be town.

Also, I don't get how CES got a totally free pass. From what I've seen, he lurked until he got called out, dumped a ton of crap, and pretty much went back to lurking.

[AlmasterGM]

MoI town would also make me suspect thor more...leaving MoI alive instead of nking him N1 as a challenge.

wtf is this bullshit

[AlmasterGM]

Ohhhhhh yeah, I forgot about that. x_x

AND you're not voting for me?

Sir, you win.

Everybody else can sheep MoI to their deaths.

[AlmasterGM]

You know, I could actually get on board with that.

Because it still leaves us enough time to determine your AND MoI's alignment.

[AlmasterGM]

And if Furry or camm is scum we lost anyway, so.

[AlmasterGM]

Unvote, vote: Thor

[AlmasterGM]

Since you finally got around to answering

If you are lynched and turn out Town I’d be looking at those who didn’t have a good reason for being on your wagon or those who campaigned hard against your lynch. Chess is so far the only player I see in that pool.

If you are lynched and turn out Scum and the game didn’t end I’d be poring through your ISO for those players who

A. Were under some pressure and you pulled a Hacker fence-sitting on.
B. Players under zero pressure you more or less completely ignored.

Of course I’d go through the VC analysis again to see where people stand. Especially Day 1.

This is really all I feel the need to respond to, because it shows that you have a fundamentally flawed approach to catching scum in this game.

Your "if I flip town" argument is bad because nobody except yourself has any reason for being on my wagon. chess is on because he's chess, Furry is on because of a "sneaking suspicion," and camm is on because of this arbitrary "40% chance" number she threw out there. So this analysis gets you nowhere. It's also bad because the only person to refuse to vote for me has been CES, who you just said has a 90% chance of being town. Lastly, it's bad because it presumes that you are always right (e.g., why the hell wouldn't we look at the person who campaigned for the mislynch, aka you) and can never be wrong, which shows you are not being objective.

Your I flip scum argument is are problematic because they pick-and-choose based on YOUR concept of how scum should play and not the meta of how I ACTUALLY play as scum. I've been mafia three times, and I bussed hardcore every single time. If I was scum in this game, I would have been continuing that thread by out-of-the-blue bussing SO. Your suggestion that we then look at "the people I ignored" despite alllll the evidence pointing the other way shows that you have zero grasp on what is actually going on and want to apply a generic "one size fits all" lens to every scumhunting situation.

I think there was a thread in MD a while back about how you have to read people, not tells, because tells are unreliable and can be manipulated, whereas human behavior is ingrained and difficult to change. You completely fail to grasp this concept, and it is why all your arguments are false and I am not scum.

[AlmasterGM]

@AGM - sorta same question, you called me town with MoI and Chess as scumbags - and then when ChessScum was like 'hey, let's lynch Thor' you voted right away. Whassup?

Because it's me versus you and I know I'm town, so I'm going to vote you. Even though I would vastly prefer a chesskid lynch.

Besides, if you look at the full context of me calling you town, I didn't say, "I have a towntell on Thor," I said, "I think MoI and chesskid are scum so Thor isn't by PoE." Buuuuut chesskid lynch isn't happening so I never get access to that juicy data.

[AlmasterGM]

@Almaster - besides self-preservation I made it to your top three, what's your logic? State the case on one of your top 3 please.

We don't need cases. Cases at this point in the game are bad. What we need is big-picture process of elimination.

CES is town.

For the moment, Furry and camn are also town. I think we can all agree on this.

I know I am town. If anybody other than Magna (who is stuck in la la land) thinks I am not town, they can explain why and I will reply. And, in any case, my vote is coming from MY perspective, so.

Magna's interactions with chesskid mean chess-scum --> magna scum. chess-town --> magna probtown.

You are an unknown wildcard.

Therefore, the BEST plan is to lynch chesskid. However, if we cannot lynch chesskid, you will suffice as an alternative.

Also, your Magna vote is cute, but suboptimal. If you want to determine if Magna is scum or not, lynching chesskid is the proper route.

[AlmasterGM]

game probalby ends when thor dies so

ummmm for town or scum?

[AlmasterGM]

wait.

so lynching thor --> scum victory?

[AlmasterGM]

i just didn't get what you meant by GAME OVER FOR TOWN, which is why i was like WTF, because to me that sounded like town loss.

BUT THATS CLEARED UP NOW SO ITS OK

[AlmasterGM]

I DONT KNOW WHICH IS WHY I ASKED.

[AlmasterGM]

How does a chess lynch help define MoI's alignment? I am interested in your publication and may wish to subscribe.

Because he has 1) been defending chesskid, despite the fact that chesskid is scummier than I am and the optimal lynch for today and 2) went absolutely insane when I suggested the remote possibility of him being scum (go see the whole back and forth where I was like, "I have a gut feeling MoI could be scum, vote chesskid," and he responded with, "OMG YOU ARE PUSHING MY LYNCH, DIE SCUM DIE." This was magnified even more when the possibility of a MoI/chesskid team was suggested. He is being excessively paranoid, especially surrounding the whole chesskid debacle.

Now...why would MoI care about keeping chesskid alive? Because if MoI and chesskid are the team, if chesskid dies, MoI will run out of NK targets. His options will be either 1) the obvtown players who think he's town, which leaves him alive with people like you and me who think he is scum, or 2) the scummier looking players (you and me), which will leave him alive with Furry and camn and they will be like "wtf is this nonsense, I guess MoI was scum after all." MoI HAS TO WIN at the critical mass of 2 town, 2 scum. He cannot go into 3 player lylo.

That's all just a theory ... but if chesskid flips scum, the key to the theory is unlocked. And, to top it off, chesskid is a really nice lynch anyway, so there's no reason not to go that route and reap the benefits of the extra data.

[AlmasterGM]

And if chesskid flips town, then MoI hasn't really done anything that suspicious after all, and we can just go back to reading him as probtown ... because minus the whole recent debacle, he's been pretty town.

[AlmasterGM]

you're right that it's not INSICALLY tied, but I feel like if chess is town, then MoI would have less of a reason to make a bid scene and oppose the chess lynch.

and yeah, chess is hard to read. That's what makes him a good lynch at this juncture.

[AlmasterGM]

btw congrats to SK on his hawt new title.

Thanks!

[AlmasterGM]

I'm heading back up to school this weekend, so

V/LA until Monday.

I can probably get some posts off, but not many.

Anyway, everybody knows who I suspect anyway.

[AlmasterGM]

Vote: chesskid

Self vote, pl0x.

[AlmasterGM]

lol sup scum

[AlmasterGM]

Is the line, "in 3 player lylo, the townier player is scum?"

Because that's definitely true here. I realize the scum have me sitting here as the intended mislynch. It's a fair move - I was wrong about chesskid and HackerHuck, and Magna and Furry have both expressed suspicion of me. However, I maintain my towniness, and I will answer any questions anybody has.

I'm pretty sold on Magna, BUUUT in the interest of me being wrong the past two times and said quote above, I am going to investigate Furry and the conspiracy theories that cropped up about him the past few days.

[AlmasterGM]

This game is stalling.

Magna, has your read produced anything new or are you going to continue in AGMSCUMMODE?

[AlmasterGM]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Hmmm.

Hm.

I'm going to give this another 2-3 days and then vote MoI.

[AlmasterGM]

Ahahahahahahaha.

That's EXACTLY what I expected to see from you, MoI.

E.X.A.C.T.L.Y.

You've been sitting here going through this incredibly fake back-and-forth "investigation" of Furry, but I know you have no plans of voting for him today. 1) You've rallied against me too hard for you to do that and 2) You know I will never vote for Furry. No, you need to buddy up with Furry; make him see that you've considered all the options. Make him warm up to you being a nice, logical player - which will make him want to vote for you.

And that was all fine and dandy. But then, the minute you thought the clock was going to run out out, you slam down the vote. The vote you've wanted two days ago, ever since I expressed a gut suspicion of you as scum. Because you wanted a perfect win, and you couldn't have someone with a gut scum read running freely in lylo.

So you know what? I'm not even going to cross vote - yet. I'm just going to sit here and wait for Furry to show up. Where he will either 1) quickhammer me, and I will feel very smug and self-righteous despite the loss OR 2) he will not quickhammer, I will feel very smug and self-righteous because I will know you are confirmedscum, and then FUrry and I will have a nice discussion about why you are scum and then you will (hopefully) lose.

This game may be a loss on my record, but I'm marking it down as AGM 1, MoI 0 in my personal book.

[AlmasterGM]

He.

Heheh.

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAA.

I KNEW IT.

I KNEWWWWWW IT.

VOTE: MAGNAOFILLUSION

You played a good game Magna.

Too good. Which is why you became nervous and went into KILL-THE-THREAT mode 2 days ago when I mentioned a suspicion of you. And that was your undoing. If you had just LET IT GO, you would have a nice, crisp win right now.

ATTN: FURRY

- Do you actually want me to argue with Magna and/or say stuff or are you just going to make up your mind on your own? Because I can argue, but it seems like a waste to do for nothing.

DO THE RIGHT THING.

[AlmasterGM]

P.S. YOU DON'T KNOW HOW SELF-RIGHTEOUS I FEEL RIGHT NOW.

SOOOO. MUCH.

Even if we lose I am still counting this as a personal win.

[AlmasterGM]

It does speak for itself, actually.

It speaks to the fact that you are scum because you only look at generic "tells" that half of MD dismisses as being unreliable. It only makes sense in a vacuum and not in any sort of real context. It speaks to the fact that you are scum and are trying to "game" the game - something you HAVE to do, because if you look at this game like a human being and not a scumtellrobot, I make no sense as scum and you make 100% sense as scum.

Anyway, Furry, the #1 recent thing I would say to focus on when re-reading is Magna's panic attack on me. He blew a molehill into a mountain. This is the

best tell in the game

because, psychologically, it reveals the #1 thing scum have that town don't: fear. Any scum can choose to bus or not, commit or not, answer questions or not - whatever. Look at Magna's "tells" on me ... if I was scum, do you really think I would be like, "derp I'm going to not answer Magna's questions" or "herp I'm going to call my buddy who is clearly getting lynched town"? No. Those are controllable things you DON'T DO. Which is why they are shitty tells that don't apply anywhere outside of the Newbie Queue.

Fear, on the other hand, is different.

Fear is something all scum have. It isn't a tactical choice - they HAVE to deal with it. It's a psychological reflex. It's tough to control. And what does fear lead to?

Panic.

Which is what Magna did.

[AlmasterGM]

I'll return the compliment AGM. You played a good game. You looked town enough that I didn't give you a second look until you started your running streak of pushing lynches against Town players and avoiding voting your partner at all cost.

This statement is contradictory because good scum do not do either of those things.

You gave me a second look because I became a threat to you. I am POSITIVE if I had not mentioned your name, you would have said nothing.

Also, as a side note, I went back and looked at all your raw VCA's. It was very clever of you and Hacker both bussing SO at the same midpoint of D1. I'm using this game as a weapon against VCA in the future.

[AlmasterGM]

/le prod picked up.

Nothing more to say here except MoI is teh scumz here.

[AlmasterGM]

Don't you LULZ at me, YOU KNOW I'M RIGHT.

[AlmasterGM]

Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.

Good game, everyone.

I want to nominate this game for the flavor text scummy but it seems kinda trivial. It would be like entering a Rembrandt into a middle school art contest.