Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)

[ooba]

To answer ABR, 2 scum groups of four each + 1 SK.

As long as its just town coordination with worships, I do not have a problem with that (for now).

CMAR is scum.
SK is scum.

raj is possible scum - not in the same group as SK.

Vote:Kairyuu

[ooba]

When we're ready to lynch or a week from deadline, whichever comes first, I will announce which players are eligible for worship from among a pool of at least 15 players, so you will maintain a good margin of choice and the scum won't be able to predict exactly which group gets worshiped.

<4> The following groups can be the target of worship Day 1:

Norse Gods
Egyptian Gods
The Old Ones
Judea-Christian Angels

We worship groups, not players...

[ooba]

Sandman

[ooba]

Town
SpyreX
Fate

Most probably town - ABR

Scum
CMAR - I've just played three games where he was town. His initial posts in this game are forced.
SK

Mighty Orbots
Mina - why the fascination with ortlan?
Ortlan
rajrhcpfreack

I cannot read DTMaster.

I find Iecerint's play different from both the most recent scum and town game I've played with him. Iece, are you a third party role here?

[ooba]

If scum belong to one of the god factions, they get benefits from being part of the majority-worshiped god factions. They may be able to influence where worship votes go, whether through persuasion, role-related ability, or otherwise. The point is, we have no idea yet how scum can influence worship votes, and making it easier for them to know where worship votes are going just sounds like a recipe for disaster.

How about this - we get the scummiest people (say 4-5) to declare their worship votes beforehand in the thread .. I say we should lynch them if we find out they've deviated from it.

Locking scum into claims now is also a good idea wrt the worship mechanic.

I guess this is what percy meant when he said this?

@ Ooba: Why am I scum?

Just the vibe I had when I was reading.

If you're asking why I suspect ortolan in general...again, why not ortolan? He's one of a pool of low posters who've only posted once or twice with safe filler (a category you belong to as well). To top it off, there's the conflict between his response to my "role-fishing" and DTM's--if the secret information was that he was recruited, then I don't see the reason for coyness.

There's no conflict there; DTM's and ortolan's causes for coming into the game might have been different.
Regarding the lower-profile players comment, I am surprised for two reasons:
a) You call our posts safe filler. Why not consider someone like elscouta - who till date had made only four random posts and one setup speculation post. We have at least taken a stand on who we think are scum.
b)
In ISO post 10: you ask Nikanor about "
What do you think of, say, Iecerint? Ooba? Ortolan?" - which I can only take as you asking one player who you think is scummy about other scummy players.
In ISO post 11: " I dislike lower-profile players like ortolan, Chronopie, ooba and Parama more.". This was three hours after that post. Note, none of Chronopie or Parama had made any post at that time. Why didn't ask Nik what he thought about Chronopie or Parama since you thought they were worse than Iece?

[ooba]

Town
Fate, DTM, SpyreX

ABR moves back to the neutral list

Scum

Iece

– He’s just off this game. His accusations have been wild. His case on Fate was a stretch.

Mina

- Cognitive dissonance as SpyreX pointed out
- Contradictions in people she called out as I pointed out in my previous post
- Subtle scummy painting of SpyreX - “Like everyone else in this game, I thought you were town since your role reveal, but your behaviour since you came back from the anaesthetics is not making sense to me now. “

I can also see strong

Iecerint-Mina connections

- Iece's initial Mina rolefishing case is much stronger than Fates - but votes Fate. Someone asks him about it and he tries to hype up the Fate case (ISO:18) just to downplay why he is not voting Mina.
- Iecerint wants to sleep on the Mina case – no posts on that afterwards
- 353 - Mina feels Iece deserves a big post but doesn’t follow up
- 463 - “That's the only reasons you ever gave for suspecting Iec.”
- Iece setting up lynches on Mina flip: "I suppose a scumMina flip would give us scumO scumDTM"

SK

- This is all you get about the worship benefits in the OP : “Generally more worship is a good thing for the group receiving it. “
- SK has twice talked about the worship wincon - 104, 271. IMO it’s a slip.
- DarkStalker also guilty of this and far more specific – “3rd party with a win con of being worshipped X # of times”

CMAR

- Meta read: Initial posts look forced
- Activity in this game pales in comparison to other games on site. Has made thirty posts after his post in this one.

Other possibilities:

Mighty Orbots, Parama for Posts + Reactions to Iece, Mina. ortolan also guilty of not commenting on Mina, Iece but he has just three posts so I'd put him below MO, parama in the list.

Suggested Plan

- Lynch one of Mina, Iece
- (Mina\Iece), SK, CMAR, MO, Parama, ortolan declare their worship targets in the thread. Lynch them if they've deviated from it.

[ooba]

Add Katy to the list of probables.
- Calls Iece wagon as scum driven since "scum always like a Iece mislynch"
- Both Iece and Mina are town (last post)

Also forgot to vote

Unvote. Vote: Snow bunny (Mina)

Would be willing to switch to Iece.

[ooba]

@ Iece
- You did follow up on Mina.
- Disagree on the scumMina implies scumO or scumDTM. Do not think a scumMina would even mention this if she knew they were recruited.
- 601 - “He asked which of the players in the QT had a specific rolename, and he told us that we shouldn't worship ABR.” – Did he say you shouldn’t worship as per ABR’s plan or worship ABR as such?
- 666 - “Ooba's switch to voting me when I basically posted an expanded version of his case on CMAR did make me O.o a little.” - I thought I voted only CMAR and Mina the entire game.

@Percy: 527 - I think rule infractions in terms of PR breaking would be sent privately to the player. Why would a mod want to confirm a PR in thread by posting an infraction?

@SK
- SK is right when he says he was only responding to Fate. I retract my wincon slip case on SK.Fate, where’d you get the idea of worship related wincons?

@ Katy
- Lol – everyone who disagrees with my reads are not scummy. Based on my case that Iece\Mina are scum, I looked at other people’s reactions to them. Both posts of yours stood out.
- 623 - “/random gives me 1 so it's Egyptian gods for me.“ – Why not do this in thread?

@Mina – 638 - “Right now, people have accused you of being my partner. You could have made yourself look good by pretending to be swayed by the case on me (you'd left yourself open to it) and voting me to prove we weren't linked, but instead you're keeping your vote on CMAR. Since I know I'm town, this makes you look better. “
Two problems:
- The case linking the both of you happened later. Unless he is a time traveling role, he could not have known this.
- Phrasing: I would have said “accused us of being scumbuddies”. “you being my partner” is a subconscious slip.
I still have a question for you that you never answered.

@CMAR – 681 – Are you softclaiming to try and match your town meta in recent games? .

I move SK back to the neutral list. I am not sure of what to make about Iece's info dump. I can see ABR-Iece as people with opposing wincons or something. Not sure where the "Mina is town" vibe is coming from - she's defended against possibly the weakest part (i.e Iece\Mina connections). No reply on the question I asked. And accepting a cognitive dissonance case doesn't make the action less scummy.

[ooba]

I agree with Iece that CMAR's play is different this game. My reads are from the following games:
1. Victorian Vampire
2. Greek Mythology
3. One more game which is ongoing but where he's already flipped.

I cannot describe it in words. While I wouldn't attribute that evil joker picture to his play, it certainly is off. Not my primary candidate for a lynch, but CMAR is someone to keep an eye on.

While I am surprised at Iece choosing to pursue this case and voting CMAR over other people he finds suspicious, his case exactly isn't out of thin air.

[ooba]

First: I'm going to go ahead and claim most (I'd rather keep one or two parts of my role under wraps for the time being) of my role. See, I'm technically not town - I'm a Mafia Godfather lyncher. If I personally eliminate the Mafia Godfather (either by helping lynch him or by killing him personally), I win. If somebody else gets rid of the Mafia Godfather within three days, I become town. Otherwise, I die and lose. Of course, this means that I'm not going to be relevant to any win condition after Night 3 (except possibly the Town win condition, but I won't be alive regardless) unless I'm lying - and that would be stupid, because I would be the automatic Day 4 lynch - so I see no reason to waste any kills/lynches on me beforehand.

Not sure if DTM shares the same wincon and conditions as tar; but I am guessing that's the case. Just realized that our best play is to not allow Tar and DTM anywhere near a lynch. If we lynch the GF without them, then its two extra town -> might give us that extra mislynch.

Con: You'll have the lingering doubt if they were scum gambiting in the first place - which I think is unlikely IMO.

---

What about this part of your case?

That's what I was saying - "OP says worship is good for that particular group getting it". SpyreX's claim that worship=delight=great things does not contrast with that info. We can assume that other endless and other deities in GOO (scum or town) will get similar powerups.
My point was you cannot derive worship wincons from the OP; Hence, that is a sign of inside info.

@Fate

, where'd you get the idea of worship wincons?

---

Since a Mina wagon looks like its never happening. And I don't buy the ort wagon.

Unvote.Vote:Albatross

[ooba]

Fuck.

@Ooba.
I told you. Lynchers in this game = double edged sword. If we lynch the GF, scum lose their

generally known as a kill immune and investigation immune person

and lynchers leave the game.

If we have only scum killing, thats a 4 person turn over (1 from GF, 2 leave with lynchers, 1 from NK if it goes through).

5 if we have more then one killing role (highly likely) and it increases by 1 per extra killer.

Finally:

Not sure if DTM shares the same wincon and conditions as tar; but I am guessing that's the case. Just realized that our best play is to not allow Tar and DTM anywhere near a lynch. If we lynch the GF without them, then its two extra town -> might give us that extra mislynch.

I don't like this. If we are true claiming lynchers, and the GF dies without us. If one of us flips you gained

confirmed town

why would you want that as an extra mislynch? You'd gain a meat shield because:

a lyncher who fails to lynch correctly becomes confirmed town instead.

It's better play to deal with lyncher issue early, and kill the GF early, rather then leave the lynchers late in the game to have the 4+ player turn over for scum.

Hence Tar's time limit.

Scum hunting, then trying to avoid lynchers voting is just a waste of time and makes your scum hunting totally ineffective. If you are going to force the lyncher issue by lynching us, well you've become all sorts of scummy.

That gives the same result as a 4 person turn over as if you killed the GF normally, but wastes two lynches. So deal: we'll be scum hunting, and we'll be voting.

I understand your 4+ turnover enforced early by time limit is a good setup mechanic thing. My argument:

- Assume 1 GF + 8 Mafia. That leaves 2 lynchers and 17 town. (Assume no third party - reduces number of variables to consider)
- We lynch CMAR today who happens to be the GF
Case i: If you and tar were on the lynch, end of D1 we have:
8 Mafia, 17 town. (Since you leave the game)
Case ii: If you and tar were not on the lynch, end of D1 we have:
8 Mafia, 17 town, 2 mostly confirmed town. (Since you convert to town because somebody else took care of the GF for you)

I am not proposing to force this issue by threatening to lynch you since that's stupid. (Waste's 2 lynches and gives scum 2 nights to play with).

I just ask you this - "If CMAR is indeed the GF, would you like to leave the game after fulfilling your wincon. Or would you like to continue in the game (after already having secured a moral victory) - after all I'm sure you signed up due to one or both of these factors:
a) It's a kinetic game. Lets have fun trying to guess\derive the setup.
b) Great player list. Lets have fun trying to spot scum slipping up (or) fool good players.
I would have chosen the later since I don't want to miss out on more fun.

So my proposal: Scum hunt. Don't vote. Continue in the game for longer and have more fun.

[ooba]

Why all vigs in my recent games are making lousy kills is beyond me ..

@ ABR, your census taking is a daybreak ability? I thought it would make more sense as a twilight ability. Find it strange that it adds up to 25 instead of 28.

---

Anyway re-read the game and ISO'd people in the night. I started with the town list. Then ISO's others and then classified them based on who they talked about (and more importantly who they chose not to talk about)

Town
Tarhalindur
DTMaster
SpyreX
Mighty Orbots
Mina
Iecerint
Katy
Fate (Maybe third party)
CryMeARiver
Snow_Bunny
SaintKerrigan
manho
chronopie

Scum
Dark Stalker
dramonic
Parama
Faraday
Percy
Plum (Not sure - due to Greek Mythology history)

Nikanor

rajrhcpfreak

Unknowns\Unread for now:
Otrolan
Kairyuu
Starbuck
ABR
totallynotmafia
Elscouta

Unvote. Vote:DarkStalker

[ooba]

Nice list. What makes manho town? Also, are Niki and raj in their own tier?

Manho = Secret town tell.

I was less sure about Nik and raj so they are separated from the rest.

[ooba]

Nice list. What makes manho town? Also, are Niki and raj in their own tier?

That's nice ooba

Two people who've claimed my list is nice. Why is it "nice"?

---

Anything to back those reads?

I think Tar, DTM and SpyreX were obvious. I'd rather not go into my other town reads.

As for scum reads, mostly vibe based on the following factors
- Focusing exclusively on people in the town list
- Not commenting on each other
- Who they voted for and when
- What they chose to comment on and what they ignored
Also except for DS, noticed that it was very hard to narrow down who the other five were worshiping from ISOs.

---

Iece, does "75%" hold any relevance for you?

[ooba]

Also, why the hell does the Mafia burn a kill on a claimed neutral (with town-leaning win condition, but still) who dies at the end of Night 3 period?

Final note: Massclaim may be in order here.

Maybe they thought you'd be sympathetic to the town due to this Post.

I am working out the worship votes based on MO's numbers. A mass worship claim might be in order.

---

It's Daybreak. I assume that it only takes into account the 25 that are alive.

Hence, we would know the alignments of people who flipped during the night before the actual end of the day reveal. We still would have to match the alignments to players who died, but its powerful nonetheless.

[ooba]

Please claim your worship votes for N1. (or if you think they shouldn't be claimed, why not?)

I worshiped:

The Old Ones

[ooba]

and for the 44 worship vots, 12 immortals with 1 vote each and 16 mortals with 2 votes should be the case. but i have 1 more vote than usual, so you need someone to have 1 less vote.

I knew crunching the worship votes would pay off

Snow_Bunny
"Oh, btw, I would worship Judea-Christian Angels." - 437
"My worship vote is, as I said before, for the Judea-Christian Angels." - 783

rajrhcpfreak
"ok i guess ill worship Judea-Christian Angels" - 675

manho
"i'll be worshipping Judea-Christian Angels." 684

JCA got 3 votes - which could mean three people voting once or one double and one single. So which one of you went back on your word?

[ooba]

and for the 44 worship vots, 12 immortals with 1 vote each and 16 mortals with 2 votes should be the case. but i have 1 more vote than usual, so you need someone to have 1 less vote.

Fair enough about switching to Old ones.
Btw two questions for you
i) 1 more vote than usual or double the usual - there's a difference.
ii) While re-reading the game in the night, you focus on anyone in particular?

Btw believe the MO-Mina QT claim. Also MO - 44 fits the current theory of vote weightages I am going with - think its right.

Since Iece hasn't answered it,

@MO

- does the term "75%" hold any significance for you?

Parama, did you mean FlipScythe (who replaced Ortolan) instead of VV?

[ooba]

#2 VasudeVa, claim. Now.

wut

Since Iece hasn't answered it, @MO - does the term "75%" hold any significance for you?

Should it?

You seem to be asking this at random.

I thought it might. But with Iece saying no, I guess not. Just a little theory I had going - If needed I'll explain this bit when we massclaim or something.

[ooba]

V\LA for exactly 24 hours. You can expect a catch up post for this game within 36 hours.

[ooba]

Ooba day 1:
Scum
Mina, Katy, Iece, SK, CMAR, MO

Ooba day 2:
Town
MO, Mina, Iecerint, Katy, CMAR, SK

Ok. I did not want to explain my reads this early

i) MO\Mina

Reasoning: My scumhunting works on the principle of links. Whenever you see someone defending someone beyond the call of duty, it usually points to some kind of town neighbours\masons\lovers (or people who'd rather not see that person lynched); scum defense is more subtle and more chainsaw-ish in nature.
MO's defense of Mina late on day 1 fits this profile.

ii) Iece\Katy

Reasoning: Look above - Katy's defense of Iece is beyond the call of duty.
This is also the reason why MO\Mina and Iece\Katy appear next to each other
Note: I do not want MO\Iece\Katy responding to my reads right now.

iii) SK

Reasoning: Retracted my case on SK when he realized he didn't make the wincon slip. Other than that, I thought he was pretty town.

iv) SB

Reasoning: Went back to Greek Mythology - took out VV's meta analysis of SB and compared it to her play in this game. Fit the town profile.
Caveat: Given that this immediately follow's Greek Mythology - SB might be playing to that town meta - but I think its unlikely.

v) CMAR

Reasoning: Play towards the end of D1. I hint at this when I ask whether he's trying to play to his town meta.

---

VV's meta on me in pretty weak. Greek mythology isn't the best game for a town meta cause it involved the process of elimination to find scum and less of reads. Try tit for tat v.2 for a inconsistent town read and weeds mafia for a consistent scum read.

@Plum: 975
"I have info which suggests that DTM is not the Modified Survivor, actually."
I would like Plum to elaborate on this

@"75%"
The fact that I found two pairs of linked players led me to the theory where each pantheon might have a pair. So that would make 8 players (or) 4 pairs. One of these people would be scum. Hence everyone would be told that their partner is "75% confirmed" or "above 50% chances of being town". I later thought that having 7 confirmed players would be bad modding but just wanted to test it out on the thread by asking Iece\MO.

@MO
Paraphrasing your argument:
Claim 1: I as town, have no reason to worship one pantheon over another based on the information I have.
Claim 2: Scum have reasons to steer the worship votes to the most powerful amongst them.
Your plan: It is in town's best interests to have a divinity claim and pick\choose worship votes according to which powers serve us best.

People have already put up the "More info is good for scum" counter to this. I can put up an equally valid plan without having so much information outed. JCA received the least number of votes on N1 - which probably means there aren't JCA scum (or) scum there voted for another pantheon hoping to give their buddies a boost. Hence, we vote for JCA.

[ooba]

Changes to my list:

Town
Tarhalindur
DTMaster
SpyreX
Mighty Orbots
Mina
Iecerint
Katy
CryMeARiver
Snow_Bunny - Town vig
SaintKerrigan
chronopie

Neutral
Fate
manho

Scum
Dark Stalker
dramonic
Parama
Faraday
Percy

Plum - Modified Survivor

Nikanor

rajrhcpfreak

Unknowns\Unread for now:
Otrolan
Kairyuu
Starbuck\Blaze - Town result from MO
ABR
totallynotmafia
Elscouta

I will not be supporting the following wagons:
Chronopie
Blaze - Both investigation result + my recent experience in another game with him
Plum

I will now do ISOs again on my top 5 scum probables and post comprehensive points against them so we can move towards a lynch.

Questions
- Fate, why is DS town?
-

They say that checking out the ooba wagon based on that almost perfect flip should be happening.

. What flip? What wagon?
- Also, I am posting from my friends comp so I cannot list out who missed claiming their worship votes on N1. If you didn't do so already, please claim now.

[ooba]

Ooba, I just noticed something about your scumlists. Even though you clearly have a read on Kai's replacement, Albatross, -- you have voted him before -- you have him on your lists as "Kairyuu" and unread. What's up with that?

The vote on Kairyuu was my early vote on CMAR.

Nik, The secret towntell on Manho is no longer applicable.

I can see Parama-Nik-Fate links. Parama got a result on VV but apparently backed off after a VV NK immune claim? Weird.

[ooba]

Well that went by quickly.

I am going to worship JC angels.

I personally don't trust the Egyptians because the obviously town thing to do on D1 was to worship Old ones due to obv town SpyreX. The fact that egyptians still got a lot of the votes seems scum motivated to me.

Those who aren't doing so (i.e Voting JC Angels) should state it in the thread so that we can compare with tomorrow's results.

SB, please do not hit anybody on these lists:

Town
Tarhalindur
DTMaster
SpyreX
Mighty Orbots
Mina
Iecerint
Katy
CryMeARiver
Snow_Bunny - Town vig
SaintKerrigan
chronopie

Neutral
Fate
manho

Dramonic, Faraday and DarkStalker are excellent choices as vig targets.

[ooba]

Mina may be able to give us information about dram, though, come to think of it. So consider him off of my list for now.

Like "It was dark and lonely in Limbo, lets lynch dram"?

You've added these two to your scum list?
12. totallynotmafia -"I remember disliking the wagon on him. I think he's town purely because of the wagon. My gut puts him at the same level as Parama-manho, though."
24. rajrhcpfreak - "Scummy very early play, townier since then. Town."

Those who aren't doing so (i.e Voting JC Angels) should state it in the thread so that we can compare with tomorrow's results.

MO is voting JC - confirmed in thread.
Iece, Faraday, Manho, Fate - haven't explicitly denied voting for JC, so I guess thats the case.
Chronopie is voting egyptians.
It'll be good to see the vote distribution tomorrow.

[ooba]

@Ooba, I assume you're keeping track of everything in terms of vote numbers but it looks like for yesterday if we're working with 44 votes total we should have gotten probably one extra from each of Iecerint, Starbuck/BlazezRb and manho. Further, Mighty Orbots (not a God) did not vote. I don't recall hearing that anyone else didn't vote so if we're working with a 12 gods, 2 votes per mortal/1 vote per god (mostly) theory I think we're still at one over what we expect.

Well Katy did say her vote didn't count. I sort of left it towards the later half of the day - I'll go see who else has not replied about D1 worship, compile a list and put it here.

[ooba]

The following have not declared their N1 worship choices. If you see them posting in thread remind them about it

2. Faraday
3. ABR
21. Tarhalindur
22. InhimshallIbe (replaces Percy)
23. Albatross (replaces Kairyuu)
27. Xmite81 (replaces FlipScythe (replaces Ortolan))

1. BlazeRb (replacing Starbuck) - Thor, the Mighty - I am assuming Norse now. (I assumed egypt for SK and Old ones for SpyreX)

---

@Tar

Is the Godfather a god or a mortal? (I am guessing Frank D'Amico flavor wise)

@Parama

Okay, there is a 99% chance I will be worshipping the Egyptian Gods. Just putting this out there.

#3 I worshipped the Egyptians.

And JC Angel votes make me much more useful.

If JCA makes you more powerful, why in gods name did you not vote JCA in N1. I can understand you voting Old Ones for SpyreX, but not egyptians.

[ooba]

Xmite81 (replaces FlipScythe (replaces Ortolan))

Lawls. Assuming this is supposed to be me.
I said, my vote won't be going anywhere as I'm not sure what each one does for me. I'll vote when I have better information.
So, you don't have to worry either way because I won't be opposing your JC angels vote

Any idea about your predecessor's N1 choice? Can ya ask the mod and let us know?

Btw, sorry for getting your name wrong. (I copied it from the OP)

[ooba]

@Ooba, if Xite91 doesn't know how the night one worship vote was used I'd imagine that there's a pretty good chance that it didn't get used at all. ortolan didn't exactly get into this game and wouldn't have been about for the night phase to see the reminder that the mod sent out about getting them in.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

True. But I guess there's no harm in asking the mod and confirming this.

[ooba]

I was going to not bother worshipping but in the end decided to see what happened so worshipped the Norse gods (aka the old ones via the loop)

Aka the Norse gods because it is both a vote and an action. So it jumps twice.

Also, if you're like a Katy type role (i.e "my worship vote does not count"), let me know.

[ooba]

And now I'm a bit confused. I sort of didn't bother paying full attention to how the worship votes would be moved about yesterday as I wasn't voting but do we think that there was a shift and that people took it into account correctly with all those claimed GOO votes? Or do we think that it actually landed on the ones that were submitted? I guess I sort of thought the shift was a player thing rather than a Pantheon thing.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

It was a player thing but SpyreX got it clarified that as far as his role went, worshipping was a vote and an action so it went full cycle (since the size is four). Tried reading SpyreX in ISO, couldn't find it - but somebody did make sure the message was sent across to everyone at the end of D1. I think Faraday is an one off case.

(@All: If you've mis-declared your vote, please clarify. Your worship vote submitted was the pantheon you worshiped)

[ooba]

Since we're all claiming worshiping and stuff (ooba has secretz) my Worship counts for double a normal mortals.

You also the kind that focus's on particular people in the night?

Also, people should totally claim info like this.

[ooba]

No internet access (most probably) for the next five days.

[ooba]

Lottery: Scepter

(Let me know if one of you have guessed it before)

Vote: Albatross

because
- The only person not to have given me the N1 worship vote
- Lurking
- Has attacked: CMAR, Iece, ABR, Ort, Manho. I am unsure about Ort but have the rest pegged as town for now.

On my previous scum list.. Percy is apparently the GF (I had DS as possible GF)

Dark Stalker
- ABR hunting. I find ABR to be more or less confirmed town.

dramonic
- I think town because a scum dramonic would have locked up SpyreX on N1 (and other powerful pro-town roles on other nights) and just kept quiet about the ability.

Parama
- Claimed weak investigative role. Null.

Faraday
- Not sure if scum would have slipped in worship voting as he claimed on N1.
- Reg. TNM - I will ISO him but have to keep in mind that this is a complex large theme game

Need to re-read the game again. Also slap Nikanor because I am jealous. I still hate the Egyptians because they always seem to be getting a decent number of votes ..

Regarding mass claim, I am not in favor of it. It is apparent that scum kill was blocked on N2 so mass-claiming would only help em avoid such situations. Roles which block kills are always diminished when they claim. (i.e If VV is not scum, I do not see them ever targeting VV again).

[ooba]

@totallynotmafia, if I had my way we'd mass claim before doing anything else right now, yes.

MO, were you recruited or something by any chance? I think the modified cult can only recruit Men. (Doesn't make sense if it is Gods) - your god/mortal fishing of TNM gives me bad vibes.

@Nikanor - Yes.

@DS - It's one of the scummy points I have against you.

[ooba]

Okay then, that's what he sent, not my mod-confirmed real target(a guy can dream right?) meaning I have no idea if I was redirected/2 slots down etc.

Be clear. So your predecessor sent

Protect(or whatever it was your ability is called): Nikanor

on N1?

[ooba]

Day 1, Vote Count 14

The Crumbling Waste

Within the core of Sanctuary the remnants begin their struggle anew...

1 Starbuck ( 1 ) -
2 Faraday ( 0 ) -
3 Albert B. Rampage ( 0 ) -
4 manho ( 0 ) -
5 dramonic ( 0 ) - Ortolan, S_B
6 chronopie ( 0 ) -
7 Fate ( 2 ) -

Elscouta

8 ooba ( 0 ) -
9 Mighty Orbots ( 1 ) -
10 Parama ( 0 ) -
11 Plum ( 0 ) -
12 totallynotmafia ( 0 ) -
13 SaintKerrigan ( 0 ) -
14 Elscouta ( 0 ) -
15 DarkStalker ( 1 ) -
16 Snow_Bunny ( 1 ) - Starbuck
17 Nikanor ( 1 ) -
18 Mina ( 0 ) -
19 SpyreX ( 0 ) -
20 Katy ( 0 ) -
21 Tarhalindur ( 0 ) -
22 Percy ( 0 ) - Percy
23 Albatross ( 0 ) - Iece, DTM, Tar, ooba, manho
24 rajrhcpfreak ( 1 ) -
25 CryMeARiver ( 4 ) - Fate, Plum, SpyreX, totallynotmafia, Nikatar, Chroniepie, raj, Faraday, albatross, SaintKerrigan, CMAR, MO, ABR, Parama
26 Iecerint ( 0 ) -
27 Ortolan ( 15 ) - Dramonic
28 DTMaster ( 0 ) -

Votes Required to Lynch: 15
Not Voting: 3



Lynch Scene Incoming. Night has begun. Twilight Actions are locked out, please start sending Daybreak actions if you have not.

Facts:
1. You are clearly not immune to Delirium (as evidenced from the VC above)
2. SpyreX's Delirium was active in the night (as evidenced from someone getting a correct Rolecop on SK by targeting Plum)
3. You PM'd Nikanor as your focus target
4. (1,2,3) together mean that your actual target was SpyreX
4. "My night action makes me and my target death immune(except by lynch) provided that me and my target worshiped the same pantheon."
5. "Night 1, Els targeted Nikanor(don't know why he targetted him though) and I worshiped the Old Gods"
6. SpyreX died on Night.

Your thoughts?

[ooba]

From the post-game of Legend of Zelda: Ocarnia of Time:
"In my opinion, Town lost this game for one reason only: they decided to play "let's outguess Tarhalindur" and lost."

Reasons for the massclaim:
a) There is the danger of the cult recruiting players. Once recruited players have an incentive to lie, hence getting all the information out right now is good for us
b) QTs are dead due to the global roleblock. Hence mafia cannot co-ordinate mass claims.
c) We can catch scum in counterclaims based on what has transpired so far. Also it helps in catching scum later because they have to commit to role, ability right now.

I hope this turns out well.

---

@MO. I know it was a silly question to ask but it was a way of noting in thread that you *might* have different motivations for pushing towards a mass claim. Also, some of your play makes no sense. You push for a mass claim but reveal your watch targets with no real gain. I mean someone could have claimed another watch (one-shot Joat or whatever) on you and said they saw VV targeting you; By revealing that info and the redirect info, you've actually reduced the chances of catching scum in counterclaims.

@Mina, I believe you said cognitive dissonance somewhere on my D1-D2 play. Cognitive dissonance would be a post where I say "Mina is town" and vote Mina in the same post. Re-reading the game in the night and changing my read on you is not cognitive dissonance. Also, I never attacked Ort in the game. I attacked CMAR,Iece on day one - Albatross is scummy because everyone he has attacked is in my current town books - the list keeps changing so who I find scummy due to their attacks also changes.

Also would like to note that your choice of attacking ABR, Fate, CMAR and lurkers in general is pretty weak.

@Raj
I agree with your sentiment that there may be scum on CMAR's wagon. Disagree with your Tar attack though.

@VV
He is obviously town. Pretty clear that the role is to do with worship since els was the one who started the discussion about whether SpyreX's delirium affects worship votes. Personally, regarding the situation I think it might be that SpyreX never worshipped in the first place. The fact that he didn't even consider his delirium's effects on worship indicate to me that he might be a Katy type role i.e the worship vote not counting role.

Any since the doors of massclaim have been opened, I see no reason why it should stop.
Here's what you should claim:

Rolename:
God\Mortal:
Any Worship Modifiers:
Worship vote N1:
Worship vote N2:
Faction (if any):
Ability:
N1 target:
N2 target:
<repeat above for each ability>
Ability (if your faction gets worship votes):

In fact it'll be easy if you can just edit the above. Nik, you missed out worship votes. (although I have all your N1 worship votes sans one, I would still like to confirm in case of mistakes)

28. DTMaster
21. Tarhalindur
9. Mighty Orbots
14. VasudeVa (replaces Elscouta)
17. Nikanor -> CMAR

Next: 25. CryMeARiver

2. Faraday
3. Albert B. Rampage
5. dramonic
6. chronopie
7. Fate
8. ooba
10. Parama
11. Plum, returned to the game Day 3.
12. totallynotmafia
15. DarkStalker
16. Snow_Bunny
18. Mina, returned to the game Day 3.
20. Katy
23. Albatross (replaces Kairyuu)
24. rajrhcpfreak
26. Iecerint
27. Xmite81 (replaces FlipScythe (replaces Ortolan))

[ooba]

Left out chronopie..

Full claimed except probably D2 worship and possible worship modifiers:

28. DTMaster
21. Tarhalindur
9. Mighty Orbots
14. VasudeVa (replaces Elscouta)
17. Nikanor -> CMAR
6. chronopie

Next:

25. CryMeARiver

Left:

2. Faraday
3. Albert B. Rampage
5. dramonic
7. Fate
8. ooba
10. Parama
11. Plum, returned to the game Day 3.
12. totallynotmafia
15. DarkStalker
16. Snow_Bunny
18. Mina, returned to the game Day 3.
20. Katy
23. Albatross (replaces Kairyuu)
24. rajrhcpfreak
26. Iecerint
27. Xmite81 (replaces FlipScythe (replaces Ortolan))

[ooba]

- I would just like to point out that the top two candidates for lynches have not claimed yet - TNM, CMAR (who is being replaced).
- We've missed out on the popcorn fashion; although slight, it does give some info
- Mina has posted and not claimed

I would like to claim at the end because my role is one which can catch scum in lies. (Plus its pretty confirmable as all my actions in thread point to it). However, if you'd like me to claim right now, I'll do it.

[ooba]

Btw, Happy scumday Pom!

[ooba]

Pom, could you ask the mod and let us know your worship targets for both nights?

2. Double a mortal? It seems here that Mortals = 2 votes, Gods = 1 vote. So he has 4 votes? LoL.

EWwwww to say the least .. VV, you should also full claim - did you also claim a 4 voter?

[ooba]

I could if it makes you feel that much better, *shrug*

It would make me feel better if you could answer VV's question. Then we can all be one bif family again and start lynching scum.

So are all you JCA peeps (Alba\SB) - Gods or mortals?

[ooba]

Rolename:

High Prophet Truth (from Halo)

God\Mortal:

Mortal

Any Worship Modifiers:

Double that of a normal mortals - its called empowered worship as breadcrumbed in this post:

2. Double a mortal? It seems here that Mortals = 2 votes, Gods = 1 vote. So he has 4 votes? LoL.

EW

wwww to say the least .. VV, you should also full claim - did you also claim a 4 voter?

I also ask manho if his worship is +1 or double.

Faction (if any):

None

Ability (if your faction gets worship votes):

None

Ability:

Focus (I've asked manho and Fate this question too about "focusing" on a player in the night)
If I match worship with my target, anything which targets me that night will target my target instead.

Worship vote N1:

Old Ones

N1 target:

DS
- I did my re-read and tried to see who had claimed their Worship targets in thread. DS was the only one I could find saying he is voting GOO for sure. However, I screwed up here as I sent in my target as DS. By forgetting SpyreX's delirium, I actually ended up targeting Nikanor.

Worship vote N2:

JCA

N2 target:

rajrhcpfreak
- I really did not have much to go on in Night two since most scummy people never committed in thread to who they were going to vote. I went with raj since my N1 worship analysis made me think raj is a JCA God. (After all, only he and SB voted for JCA and he seemed pretty certain of his JCA choice in D1 and after that when confirming it too). It also meant sticking to the plan and voting JCA and not any other pantheon so went with it.

- I did get a QT with Iece on N2. Mod closed it on N2.
- Since raj also voted JCA and nobody else has claimed a redirect from Raj->Nikanor (since that's where the QT linking ended up), we know there is a scum redirector or a raj scum reflector role.

Anyway I haven't analyzed all claims thoroughly. Be right back with thoughts in an hour or so .

[ooba]

- I did get a QT with Iece on N2. Mod closed it on N2.
- Since raj also voted JCA and nobody else has claimed a redirect from Raj->Nikanor (since that's where the QT linking ended up), we know there is a scum redirector or a raj scum reflector role.

Got this wrong. Since mine is a daybreak action, I assumed it only affects night actions. Apparently it was my N1 screw up which linked Nikanor instead of me with Iecerint; his was a twilight action.
Realized this after Fate claimed his revivor skill works even in the day.

[ooba]

P.S: I have PM'd the mod because I think N1 worship is wrong. Norse cannot have 5 votes according to my analysis:
Faraday with 2 votes
DTM with 2 votes
Blaze (Too Human) with 2 votes

[ooba]

I am currently concentrating solely on worship claims.
- News: Mod has checked his notes. The percentages are correct - meaning either
a) Blaze is the only Norse god without the "Too Human" worship modification
b) Faraday is lying
c) Scum have some weird worship vote reducer power

Few Questions:
- @Pom, N2 worship target please. Was it Norse?
- @DTM, N2 worship target please. Was it Egyptian?
- @Raj, why did you vote JCA both nights? As in why the favoritism to JCA?
- @Faraday, your worship voting appears random. First Norse, than egyptian. Reasoning?
- @TNM, why egyptian worship on N1?
- @AD, Did SpryreX, SK tell you anything about their worship votes on N1?

Fate has claimed a QT of 6 with Nikanor - I was the one who indicated to Iece that it might be the egyptian pantheon. I would like QT people to claim why they have the QT too. (along with members)

[ooba]

WHICH, would appear to indicate that someone has lied and is actually a roleblocker, if ABR is town, since I don't think anyone claimed roleblocker per se (closest is dram, but his JK is via Limbo, so).

Chronopie

By the way, the VV case is wrong. I had my ability timing clarified with the mod - since it is a daybreak action, the worship votes gets activated only in the morning so it works for the next day/night cycle. Hence, VV protected spyreX for D2\N2 when he was already dead.

b) Faraday is lying

About being human/my worship target? Obviously if I didn't worship them then the % us more than it should be, correct?

Two explanations I could think of:
a) You are a god and claimed Mortal. (Which explains the 6-5 difference) - Prob with this theory is that N2 worship does not work out in that case
b) Or another situation which is explained below:

Worship N1
Egyptians
3. ABR 2
6. chronopie 1
7. Fate 4
10. Parama 1
12. totallynotmafia 1
25. CryMeARiver 1
26. Iecerint 2

Actual:

12

Deviation:

12

JCA
16. Snow_Bunny 1
24. rajrhcpfreak 2

Actual:

3

Deviation:

0

Norse
1. BlazeRb (replacing Starbuck) 2
2. Faraday 2
28. DTMaster 2

Actual:

5

Deviation:

+1 (6)

Old Ones
4. manho 3
5. dramonic 2
8. ooba 4
11. Plum 1
14. VasudeVa (replaces Elscouta) 4
15. DarkStalker 1
17. Nikanor 1
21. Tarhalindur 2
18. Mina 2
22. InhimshallIbe (replaces Percy) 2
23. Albatross (replaces Kairyuu) 1

Actual:

24

Deviation:

-1 (23)

Others
20. Katy 0 Nil
27. Xmite81 (replaces FlipScythe (replaces Ortolan)) 0 Nil
9. Mighty Orbots 2 None
13. SaintKerrigan 1 ?
19. SpyreX 1 ?

Reasoning to find the ?sw
- I am guessing SpyreX voted for Old Ones. (Look above - does not clash with VV's claim according to my understanding)
- Just read back Blaze in ISO, I guess he never claimed his worship vote. The only other explanation is that he (or Starbuck) never voted and SK actually voted Norse making it 5.

This also works out with N2 worship so there are no contradictions with respect to God\Mortal claims and worships.

[ooba]

N2 Worship:

egyptians
28. DTMaster 2
2. Faraday 2
6. chronopie 1
7. Fate 4
Total: 9

JCA
3. ABR 2
5. dramonic 2
8. ooba 4
9. Mighty Orbots 2
10. Parama 1
12. totallynotmafia 1
14. VasudeVa (replaces Elscouta) 4
15. DarkStalker 1
16. Snow_Bunny 1
24. rajrhcpfreak 2
26. Iecerint 2

Percy - 2
Manho - 3

Total: 27

Others
20. Katy 0 - Nil
27. Xmite81 (replaces FlipScythe (replaces Ortolan)) 0 - Nil
21. Tarhalindur 2 - None
23. Albatross (replaces Kairyuu) 1 - None

Old Ones
17. Nikanor 1
25. CryMeARiver 1
Total: 2

Norse

Plum

Total: 1

Well, apart from helping me find who the dead people voted on N1\N2 - that was more or less a wasted exercise. ;(

[ooba]

Back. Analyzing claims now. Will also comment on Nik's worship plan.

VV, nothing works tonight.

---

DTMaster has limited shots left, so we're dependent on Snow_Bunny not dying

Ability: I had a one shot kill.

---

Double fuck - if I'm reading the rules right, BlazeRB's idiocy has cost me my daykill.

Current role (received after choosing Mark Millar): Big Daddy (from Kick-Ass), Town (was Modified Lyncher* up until the beginning of Day 3). Abilities: Must bring a user from the replacement list into the game as Hit Girl (alignment mod confirmed, including mod confirmation that DTMaster's win condition also changed at the beginning of D3) before game start (used on DTMaster), Miller (note: wording on the ability suggests that Kinetic thought Big Daddy would be seen as scum by role name analysis), 1-shot bulletproof immunity (depleted N1), 1-shot nightkill (used on SaintKerrigan N1), death trigger (would kill me at the end of N3 except it's blocked by the global roleblock - I'm not sure if a N3 protection would have saved me or not), able to night talk with Hit Girl.

Why the inconsistency?

[ooba]

Faraday and S_B. There is also me suddenly appearing in your watch list. It's uncomfortable and I cannot make heads or tails of it.

If SB is Mafia, that means she shot her godfather.
If SB is SK, that means you should be ready to lynch ABR since his census did not have an SK alignment.

@MO, I think my other two posts give the worship calculations for both days. I no longer doubt Faraday regarding worship.

[ooba]

ebwop: I forgot the redirect claim which means SB is not cleared of being Mafia. But since Faraday did the redirect, he cannot be Mafia. Hence Faraday and SB cannot be mafia together.

[ooba]

Trying to analyze the setup.

Starting QTs:

Some QT (MO + Mina)
White Council QT (MO+Faraday+????)
Norse (ABR+Blaze+Sky+Percy)
Kick Ass (Tar+DTM)

Nik's QTs:
N1: Parama + Fate
N2: Plum + Mighty Orbots
N2: Iecerint + ooba

Let me know in case I missed some QT.

MO, please share
i) Flavor for your QT with Mina (if any)
ii) White council QT flavor (if any) with all members

[ooba]

ebwop: Iece instead of Sky

[ooba]

Given my ability timing, I will not be claiming my worship or target from here onwards except in the situation where I catch somebody in a lie. I think VV should not claim his target or worship too.

I have (finally) started with the claims to see who has not played in a consistent manner with that claim.

I start with VV and Fate because they are the closest to my role - I expect to see some sort of focus on worship here and attentiveness to any discussion on worship.

---

14. VasudeVa (replaces Elscouta)

Worship Focus
- Starts off with the entire "If you had to worship now, who would you focus on"

Great N1 choice - matches with my choice of who I would have protected with a role like that - If SB hadn't killed SpyreX, he would have been NK immune on N2.

It's pointless to have a 'target woships the same pantheon' subclause when you're scum.

What about in the situation where scum are split up and cannot talk to each other?

---

7. Fate

Points in Fate's favor:

Worship focus

Post 1: The first to start worship discussion
Post 5: "I see nothing wrong with claiming Worship targets in case of something screwy coming up later."
Post 15: "I'll get to Percy's post in a minute."
Post 37: "LYNCH PLEASE WORSHIP PLAN FIRST THEN LYNCH"
- General irritation at people jumping the gun and worship voting
Post 104: "I would be ALL DOWN for a mass deity claim so we can figure out who to worship."

Points against Fate

Percy

Sat May 29, 2010 4:58 pm
- Promises a follow up on Percy's post but never follows up on it
Post 44: "You can add Percy to that list of town now. "

N1 Choice

Worship vote N1: Egypt (Nikanor)
Worship vote N2: Egypt (Chronopie)
N1: Focus Nikanor because no one explicitly fuckin claimed IM WORHSIPPING GOO in thread so I was left with few options.
N2: Focus Chronopie cause I could count on him to worship Egypt lulz
The N1 egyptian choice was horrible. You already knew Nikanor was Old Ones. If nothing else, SpyreX was surely voting the Old Ones. N2 was acceptable since it was hard narrowing anybody down to their worship choices.

You passive for being a miller says: Scum of the universe?

Yours is different?

Can you PM the mod and ask who you focussed on during N1?

---

Also some setup news; breakdown of manho's role:

4. manho, died Night 2 by being shot (in the dick). Rolecop: Paul Atreides

manho is a role similar to Fate's; in the sense, that he does not affect his target. Reasons being his willingness to focus on anyone as long as he gets it right (he switches from VV to Iece on D2).

ii) you mean ... that thing? i focus on spyrex.

Since he got his focus right now on N1, his power should have been active on D2\N2.
The first thing manho does on D2 is to check his vote - apparently for delirium but

4 manho ( 2 ) [ 11 ] - manho

Therefore manho was an focus guy who became a double voter if he matched targets perfectly.

---

There is no way I am lynching Fate today (pending his explanation of the N1 choice).

I would say the same thing about VV but let me mull over the apparent redirection to VV.

[ooba]

ebwop: redirection to SB

[ooba]

10. Parama
11. Pomegranate (replaces Plum), returned to the game Day 3.
18. Mina, returned to the game Day 3.
23. Albatross (replaces Kairyuu)
24. rajrhcpfreak
25. AdumbroDeus (Replaces CryMeARiver)
26. Iecerint
28. DTMaster

Can the following just vote anybody? Just make sure nobody is accidentally lynched - a random vote will do.
Just to be clear - nobody has claimed Blaze's hammer right?

[ooba]

@ooba, the people who make sense to have received BlazezRb's hammer based on what he said have denied having it so far as I can tell. Further we probably wouldn't see it's effects showing up today with the universal roleblock going anyhow.

Forgot that! Ignore my last post.

24. rajrhcpfreak
I was reminded of this role:

Role Name: Zombie
Summary: BRAAAAAIIINNSSSS!!!!! (SK+ with 1 shot NK immunity)

Zombies typically don't fit in quite well in social scenarios, but this scenario is far from normal. Each night, you can send me the name of one other person you wish to zombify. Unfortunately, while you have retained your intelligence, they will not. The people you zombify will appear dead to the town, however, if you are still alive and the number of people you have zombified plus you is greater than or equal to the number of other remaining people, your undead minions will rise from the grave and kill them all. In addition, the first time anyone tries to kill you their attempt will fail due to their lack of head shots. Any subsequent kill attempts by anyone will be successful, as even a great zombie falls to enough physical damage.

You win when you plus the number of people you have killed is greater than or equal the number of other living players (if you are alive at this point).

The role screamed cult to me but I am beginning to doubt whether there is a cult in the game. I am leaning town for now.
Note: Please do not bring the Frankenstein monster into the game.

12. totallynotmafia
I actually believe his claim.

3. Albert B. Rampage
Now leaning a third party role which has to get rid of all the Norse gods. Guessing he gets powers if Norse are not worshiped for two consecutive days (perhaps a kill).
Given Iece's invulnerability, I think worshiping Norse might be a good idea today.

[ooba]

ABR are you "Too Human"? aka worship votes count as 2 i.e mortals vote ..?

[ooba]

This is my best estimate of the voting during N1/N2. If you come up for a theory for N1, make sure it satisfies N2 worship too.
I put percy in Old Ones N1 because Iece said he stated that in Norse QT (during our N2 QT session). It looks like percy was following town dictate.

Worship N1
Egyptians
3. ABR 2
6. chronopie 1
7. Fate 4
10. Parama 1
12. totallynotmafia 1
25. CryMeARiver 1
26. Iecerint 2

JCA
16. Snow_Bunny 1
24. rajrhcpfreak 2

Norse
2. Faraday 2
28. DTMaster 2
13. SaintKerrigan 1

Old Ones
4. manho 3
5. dramonic 2
8. ooba 4
11. Plum 1
14. VasudeVa (replaces Elscouta) 4
15. DarkStalker 1
17. Nikanor 1
21. Tarhalindur 2
18. Mina 2
22. InhimshallIbe (replaces Percy) 2
23. Albatross (replaces Kairyuu) 1
19. SpyreX 1 ?

Others
20. Katy 0 Nil
27. Xmite81 (replaces FlipScythe (replaces Ortolan)) 0 Nil
9. Mighty Orbots 2 None
1. BlazeRb (replacing Starbuck) 2 ? - None

N2 Worship:

egyptians
28. DTMaster 2
2. Faraday 2
6. chronopie 1
7. Fate 4
Total: 9

JCA
3. ABR 2
5. dramonic 2
8. ooba 4
9. Mighty Orbots 2
10. Parama 1
12. totallynotmafia 1
14. VasudeVa (replaces Elscouta) 4
15. DarkStalker 1
16. Snow_Bunny 1
24. rajrhcpfreak 2
26. Iecerint 2
Percy - 2
Manho - 3
Total: 27

Others
20. Katy 0 - Nil
27. Xmite81 (replaces FlipScythe (replaces Ortolan)) 0 - Nil
21. Tarhalindur 2 - None
23. Albatross (replaces Kairyuu) 1 - None

Old Ones
17. Nikanor 1
25. CryMeARiver 1

Norse
Plum -1

---

2341: Raj lists out all abilities of Thor
2343: Iece: Where's "Too Human"?
2344: DS: Just reads like raj defense because he missed out too human.

I think raj screwed up by missing out too human. If raj flips scum, DS is scum with raj.

[ooba]

@Mod: Is the last vote count right?

I am guessing its right. 18 people voting and 18 votes - so we have some strange vote redirection or vote stealing and usage by scum.

Well he says he has a different win condition than town and my census on Night 1 says otherwise.

When did raj say this?

Iece, stop being defensive. I just pointed out that DS said Blaze might be a single voter once you pointed out raj not adding too human.

Most of what raj said was already claimed by Blaze save these bits:
- Runed: he has full access to Yggdrasil in a QT thread
- The name "Collateral Damage" for the passive

To all norse folk - is the QT explanation and link part of the "Too Human" passive?

[ooba]

I cannot say for sure that Blaze was "Too Human" since my theory for N1 is that he never worshiped.
But he did die "Too Human"...

1. BlazeRb (replacing Starbuck) -

Thor, the Mighty (Too Human) - Survivor

, modkilled Day 2, removed from the game Night 2

[ooba]

@ooba, the too human bit we got from the mod about BlazezRb on his flip would have been his universe rather than the actual ability I think. That'd match the Stargate for SaintKerrigan and Sandman for SpyreX for example. Given what I can tell from the flavor of the game I could see Thor not having that passive ability (he was mostly cybernetic.) Your character in particular is the one that is too human in the game based on the description.

Percy was an "Intelligence Network". When he can be "Too human" and count for two votes, I do not see why Thor is an exception. (P.S you mean Iece's character).

[ooba]

Ok - I'll revisit the worship to see if any other explanation can be possible.

Pom - I am sure you would have received a reply from the mod. Who did you worship vote on N2?

[ooba]

Worship N1:

Egyptians

Confirmed\Declared: ABR (2) + chronopie (1) + Fate (4) + Parama (1) + totallynotmafia (1) + CryMeARiver (1) + Iecerint (2)
Total (Declared): 12
Actual: 12

JCA

Confirmed\Declared: Snow_Bunny (1) + rajrhcpfreak (2)
Total (Declared): 3
Actual: 3

Norse

Confirmed\Declared: Faraday (2) + DTMaster (2)
Total (Declared): 4
Actual: 5

Old Ones

Confirmed\Declared: manho (3) + dramonic (2) + ooba (4) + Plum (1) + VasudeVa (4) + DarkStalker (1) + Nikanor (1) + Tarhalindur (2) + Mina (2) + Albatross (1)
Total (Declared): 21
Actual: 24

Did not vote

Confirmed\Declared: Katy (0) + Xmite81 (0) + Mighty Orbots (2)

Unaccounted for

Votes: 3 for Old Ones + 1 for Norse
Players:
BlazeRb (?)
SaintKerrigan (1)
SpyreX (1)
InhimshallIbe (replaces Percy) (?)

Reasoning to fill the blanks

- SpyreX voted Old Ones - manho "focused" on Spyrex, worshiped Old Ones and became a Double voter - hence SpyreX voted Old Ones
- We get two cases after this:
Case i: All Norse are "Too Human"
- If both Percy and Blaze counted for two votes, then only SK could have voted Norse
- That leaves one of Percy\Blaze voting Old Ones and the other not voting. With both of them not being active, it is not too far fetched.

Case ii: All Norse need not be "Too Human"
- In this case, the most probable voting would be to attribute one vote to each of Blaze and Percy. One of the two voted Norse and the other the Old Ones (we can assume Percy went the Old ones since he had apparently voiced his intention in the Norse QT to vote the Old ones)

Obviously case ii seems more possible than case i since SK worshiping Old Ones makes more sense than SK worshiping Norse. But lets just check with respect to N2 worship.

N2 Worship:

Egyptians

Confirmed\Declared: DTMaster (2) + Faraday (2) + chronopie (1) + Fate (4)
Total (Declared): 9
Actual: 9

JCA

Confirmed\Declared: ABR (2) + dramonic (2) + ooba (4) + Mighty Orbots (2) + Parama (1) + totallynotmafia (1) + VasudeVa (4) + DarkStalker (1) + Snow_Bunny (1) + rajrhcpfreak (2) + Iecerint (2)
Total (Declared): 22
Actual: 27

Old Ones

Confirmed\Declared: Nikanor (1) + CryMeARiver (1)
Total (Declared): 2
Actual: 2

Norse

Confirmed\Declared:
Total (Declared): 0
Actual: 1

Did not vote

Confirmed\Declared: Katy (0) + Xmite81 (0) + Tarhalindur (2) + Albatross (1)

Unaccounted for

Votes: 5 for Old Ones + 1 for Norse
Players:
Plum (1)
Percy (?)
manho (3)

Reasoning to fill the blanks

- manho declared in thread that he meant to follow Iecerint on JCA
- Which leaves Plum on Norse and Percy on Old Ones. This also means Percy has to be 2 votes i.e "Too Human"
- Therefore case ii is invalidated and case i is right - Percy was "Too Human"

---

Of course the reasoning for N2 has four implicit assumptions:
a) Dead players cannot worship vote.
b) Lynched\Modkilled players worship vote does not count.
- Technically, Blaze could have sent in his worship vote before he was killed. If we assume Norse again for Blaze, Plum\Pom would have to be Old ones.
c) Worship votes per player cannot change
- Maybe the scum (cult or mafia; leaning towards the former) can steal worship votes from the dead
d) One of the "Did not vote" category is lying
- Katy, Xite could have abstained from voting N1 and still count
- Albatross could be lying about not voting N2

[ooba]

You considered SpyreX until he called you suspicious?

Any reason why you made two posts in between after TNM's post and then came back to it again?
Waiting to see how the town leans on raj?

[ooba]

Pom's vote added. Something fishy ..

Worship N1:

Egyptians

Confirmed\Declared: ABR (2) + chronopie (1) + Fate (4) + Parama (1) + totallynotmafia (1) + CryMeARiver (1) + Iecerint (2)
Total (Declared): 12
Actual: 12

JCA

Confirmed\Declared: Snow_Bunny (1) + rajrhcpfreak (2)
Total (Declared): 3
Actual: 3

Norse

Confirmed\Declared: Faraday (2) + DTMaster (2)
Total (Declared): 4
Actual: 5

Old Ones

Confirmed\Declared: manho (3) + dramonic (2) + ooba (4) + Pom (1) + VasudeVa (4) + DarkStalker (1) + Nikanor (1) + Tarhalindur (2) + Mina (2) + Albatross (1)
Total (Declared): 21
Actual: 24

Did not vote

Confirmed\Declared: Katy (0) + Xmite81 (0) + Mighty Orbots (2)

Unaccounted for

Votes: 3 for Old Ones + 1 for Norse
Players:
BlazeRb (?)
SaintKerrigan (1)
SpyreX (1)
InhimshallIbe (replaces Percy) (?)

Reasoning to fill the blanks

- SpyreX voted Old Ones - manho "focused" on Spyrex, worshiped Old Ones and became a Double voter - hence SpyreX voted Old Ones
- We get two cases after this:
Case i: All Norse are "Too Human"
- If both Percy and Blaze counted for two votes, then only SK could have voted Norse
- That leaves one of Percy\Blaze voting Old Ones and the other not voting. With both of them not being active, it is not too far fetched.

Case ii: All Norse need not be "Too Human"
- In this case, the most probable voting would be to attribute one vote to each of Blaze and Percy. One of the two voted Norse and the other the Old Ones (we can assume Percy went the Old ones since he had apparently voiced his intention in the Norse QT to vote the Old ones)

Obviously case ii seems more possible than case i since SK worshiping Old Ones makes more sense than SK worshiping Norse. But lets just check with respect to N2 worship.

N2 Worship:

Egyptians

Confirmed\Declared: DTMaster (2) + Faraday (2) + chronopie (1) + Fate (4)
Total (Declared): 9
Actual: 9

JCA

Confirmed\Declared: ABR (2) + dramonic (2) + ooba (4) + Mighty Orbots (2) + Parama (1) + totallynotmafia (1) + VasudeVa (4) + DarkStalker (1) + Snow_Bunny (1) + rajrhcpfreak (2) + Iecerint (2) + Pom(1)
Total (Declared): 23
Actual: 27

Old Ones

Confirmed\Declared: Nikanor (1) + CryMeARiver (1)
Total (Declared): 2
Actual: 2

Norse

Confirmed\Declared:
Total (Declared): 0
Actual: 1

Did not vote

Confirmed\Declared: Katy (0) + Xmite81 (0) + Tarhalindur (2) + Albatross (1)

Unaccounted for

Votes: 4 for JCA + 1 for Norse
Players:
Percy (?)
manho (3)

Reasoning to fill the blanks

- manho declared in thread that he meant to follow Iecerint on JCA
- Which leaves 2 unaccounted votes but only one player

---

Asked the mod about the second:
b) Lynched\Modkilled players worship vote does not count.
If a player is lynched\modkilled during day, their worship does not count. If killed during night, it does.

Blaze CANNOT have worshiped N2 i.e it does not count

Now it has to be one of the others:
a) Dead players cannot worship vote.
c) Worship votes per player cannot change
- Maybe the scum (cult or mafia; leaning towards the former) can steal worship votes from the dead
d) One of the "Did not vote" category is lying
- Katy, Xite could have abstained from voting N1 and still count
- Albatross could be lying about not voting N2

[ooba]

Worship N1:

Egyptians

Confirmed\Declared: ABR (2) + chronopie (1) + Fate (4) + Parama (1) + totallynotmafia (1) + CryMeARiver (1) + Iecerint (2)

JCA

Confirmed\Declared: Snow_Bunny (1) + rajrhcpfreak (2)

Norse

Confirmed\Declared: Faraday (2) + DTMaster (2)
Most Probable: Blaze (1)

Old Ones

Confirmed\Declared: manho (3) + dramonic (2) + ooba (4) + Pom (1) + VasudeVa (4) + DarkStalker (1) + Nikanor (1) + Tarhalindur (2) + Mina (2) + Albatross (1)
Most Probable: SpyreX (1) + SK(1) + Percy(1)

Did not vote

Confirmed\Declared: Katy (0) + Xmite81 (0) + Mighty Orbots (2)

N2 Worship:

Egyptians

Confirmed\Declared: DTMaster (2) + Faraday (2) + chronopie (1) + Fate (4)

JCA

Confirmed\Declared: ABR (2) + dramonic (2) + ooba (4) + Mighty Orbots (2) + Parama (1) + totallynotmafia (1) + VasudeVa (4) + DarkStalker (1) + Snow_Bunny (1) + rajrhcpfreak (2) + Iecerint (2) + Pom(1)
Most Probable: Percy(1) + manho(3)

Old Ones

Confirmed\Declared: Nikanor (1) + CryMeARiver (1)

Norse

Most Probable: Blaze (1)

Did not vote

Confirmed\Declared: Katy (0) + Xmite81 (0) + Tarhalindur (2) + Albatross (1)

Therefore, Percy\Blaze were Norse gods who were worth only one vote. But why is ABR "Too Human" - I've never played the game - wiki does not seem to implicitly say that he was mostly human.

Anyway back to claim\play analysis.

[ooba]

This game has ground to a halt.

Let's lynch raj and move on Y/y?

I'm actually waiting for DS's theory..

W.r.t raj, I am just trying to figure out that if he is scum and had a recruit ability, why didn't he use it by now? Its suboptimal to delay the recruitment (Unless Ort was his recruit)

[ooba]

DTMaster has limited shots left, so we're dependent on Snow_Bunny not dying

Ability: I had a one shot kill.

---

Double fuck - if I'm reading the rules right, BlazeRB's idiocy has cost me my daykill.

Current role (received after choosing Mark Millar): Big Daddy (from Kick-Ass), Town (was Modified Lyncher* up until the beginning of Day 3). Abilities: Must bring a user from the replacement list into the game as Hit Girl (alignment mod confirmed, including mod confirmation that DTMaster's win condition also changed at the beginning of D3) before game start (used on DTMaster), Miller (note: wording on the ability suggests that Kinetic thought Big Daddy would be seen as scum by role name analysis), 1-shot bulletproof immunity (depleted N1), 1-shot nightkill (used on SaintKerrigan N1), death trigger (would kill me at the end of N3 except it's blocked by the global roleblock - I'm not sure if a N3 protection would have saved me or not), able to night talk with Hit Girl.

Why the inconsistency?

[ooba]

ooba, what the hell.

If this is with reference to the worship voting analysis - I thought it was relevant and necessary as I thought it caught raj in a slip-up. It didn't contain much text anyway..

I. Lynches I would endorse today
15. DarkStalker
17. Nikanor
20. Katy
24. rajrhcpfreak
27. Xmite81 (replaces FlipScythe (replaces Ortolan))
10. Parama

II. Between I and III - still wouldn't like to lynch today
5. dramonic
3. Albert B. Rampage
26. Iecerint
6. chronopie
23. Albatross (replaces Kairyuu)
25. AdumbroDeus (Replaces CryMeARiver)

III. People who I wouldn't like to lynch today
11. Pomegranate (replaces Plum), returned to the game Day 3.
12. totallynotmafia
14. VasudeVa (replaces Elscouta)
16. Snow_Bunny
18. Mina, returned to the game Day 3.
7. Fate
9. Mighty Orbots
2. Faraday
21. Tarhalindur
28. DTMaster

Unvote. Vote: raj

[ooba]

I'll hammer when ordered. (I don't really understand the case yet.)

I already did.

[ooba]

Now since we have three scum flips - I'm re-reading the entire game again.

ooba's at the fringe of the list (pending a Random Mafia 3 reread, his questioning at end of day reads scum in light of raj - who tried to discredit me - flipping scum but I remember badly misreading him there) but he's mortal and can therefore wait.

While looking at the claims I spotted a difference between what you and DTM had claimed before; I thought it made sense clarifying that.
Regarding RM3, it's been over two and half years since that game and I've taken a two year break. I do think my game's changed a lot after my return. Here are a couple of my recent games in case you want to meta me:
Scum (loss) : Weeds Mafia
Scum (win) : Victorian Vampire
Town (loss) : Greek Mythology Mafia

Preview: @Fate - Mina is prob. town because MO says she is part of his good wizards group. (along with Faraday)

[ooba]

I don't give a fuck what neighborhood she's a part of.

She made connections to a hypothetical Rajr scum, defended him based of Percy's attack on him (???) and then voted CHRONO?

@ooba, the White Council quick topic is the one that Mina is in. The three of us are the only ones there. It's a council of wizards who were part of a larger council before the game started and were the only three to be sucked into the events happening here. The implications seems to me to be that we're all supposed to be good but there's nothing concrete. I'd classify us as unconfirmed masons rather than neighbors I think.

Since you proxied your vote to MO, I don't think you'll be voting Mina anytime soon

[ooba]

ISO'd chrono ..
- attacks Fate, MO, Iece, TNM, CMAR
- asks for a case on raj
Decent chance for scum

Before that, just remembered something while reading .. Can everyone vote somebody without lynching by mistake please?
Blaze's hammer should be working by now ..

Unvote. Vote: DS

[ooba]

Why DarkStalker over Chronopie for your vote? I don't necessarily hate that vote just now but I'm curious.

Makes sense to spread the votes out if we are testing - saw that two of you had already voted chrono. Plus DS has given me a bad vibe this entire game - I am now ISO'ing him to see if I can make a case on him and convince others.

P.S: You are probably right about the hammer.

[ooba]

Ok I was ISO'ing DS and spotted that he mentions cult before ABR posts his census results on the thread. Granted it was with reference to how ort recruitment could have been cult or mafia.

I thought this might be a good time to test out who else mention "cult" before ABR's post. I have a tell (it is an offshot of Jeep's "every player wants to subconsciously tell you their role") wherein the first few players to mention the SK or cult in a thread are most probably the SK or cult. (Unless they have a role connected to it like psychologist).

I went back to each page and did crtl-f to see who mentions the word "cult"

CryMeARiver -(22)
Mina (34) - in response to CMAR's comment. Uses 'recruit' too
Parama (405)
DarkStalker (561) - Talks about how ort could be a cult recruit
Fate (573)
Nikanor (845) - in response to Parama calling him cult (misses out SK here?)
ABR states that there is a cult in the game @ 965

I would expect the cult leader to be in one of the category to have mentioned cult before ABR did. Therefore you have your cult leader in (CMAR, Mina, Parama, DS, Fate, Nikanor).

Post ABR's reveals one would expect cult mentions to go up. Number of mentions post that:
Iece - 14
DS - 10
MO - 9
Fate - 5
ooba - 5
Nikanor - 4
Parama - 3
Plum - 3 (A few on how cult\mafia are a threat to town while she isnt)
Katy - 3
Chrono - 2 (in response to people calling his revivor ability cult)
TNM - 2
Dram - 1 (Why limbo is not cult)
SB - 1
Albatross - 1

I am ignoring ABR\Tar\DTM cult mentions

DS is the cult leader

1. Abnormal number of cult mentions
2. I think this line is pretty telling : "Asuming ABR is telling the truth we do have a cult but given that spyreX claimed endless and didn't seem to be acting cultish

I rather doubt all endless are cult.

" - this is a slip.

Oh and probable role: Cthulhu - Great old ones. If you think Kinetic wouldn't put the cult leader in GOO, ever heard of a double bluff?
I know cult hunting is Mafia 101 but w\e.

[ooba]

More reasons:
1) Play gives me the vibe of not wanting to step on anybody's toes.
2) "Last thing we discussed was possibility of cults in the game and I didn't really go in depth there as how they could work is currently unknown" - Why would anybody discuss cults before ABR's reveal??
3) ani's weird reaction "limbo = cult. Lets vote Mina"
4) Plus DS did not use his claimed abilities when worshiped. (For those of you who think cult recruiter wont be able to perform an ability at night and recruit at same time)

[ooba]

I was going to say Tar acts like he's been recruited but then realized he would have been a bad choice on N1\N2 (before we knew that the godfather was dead). Global roleblock clears D3\N3 so unless it was a rapid day action on D4, I do not think he's cult. But I think he's suffering from confirmation bias - you see what you want to see.

Regarding selective scumhunting from my side, maybe you should do one of those ISOs on me.

---

Fate, that list was for completeness.. I think I've already made my views clear that DS is the most prob. cult leader in that.

---

TNM, can you give me the item?

---

Xite, MO seems to think its good enough and it has been good for me since.

Nobody commented on my DS case..

[ooba]

Ah...I was wondering why the hell a doc protect would be called possession...

Rolename: Minnie Montgomery
God\Mortal: Mortal, my spirit companion is Gabriel.
Any Worship Modifiers: None
Worship vote N1: Egyptian
Worship vote N2: JC Angels
Faction (if any): Ex-Laws (JC angels)
Ability: Doc protect (possession)
N1 target: Katy, with the intention to protect Percy
N2 target: Parama
Ability (if your faction gets worship votes): Jailkeep ability (oversoul)

Confirming the item corresponding to the possession and oversoul ability. Doc, JK.
Let me know if anybody else wants to take a look.
I think MO's plan of distributing the JCA items amongst those we think are pro-town makes a lot of sense.

Also I can prove I am not Cthulhu

Surprisingly you said "I am not Cthulhu" instead of "I am not cult".

Preview: You sure we cant pass the item again? Somebody confirm with the mod.

[ooba]

I think I was the first person to mention Cthulhu = cult in the thread. (At least over the last few pages .. There was a discussion on lovecraft at the beginning of the game - someone could have mentioned the name there)

Regarding worship,
a) If DS is today's lynch, I will advocate a Great Old Ones worship. (Tar also proposes this)
b) If not we stay away from GOO. My dislike for the egyptians has already been mentioned. I think a JCA worship should do nicely today.
Of course, many still have misgivings about SB and do not want to give her a unstoppable kill. So I propose she gives it to one of Tar\DTM (Tar seems to be paying more attention to the thread so he may be a better choice; And no tar, I am not proposing this so that it makes you double think your oobascum theories and not vig me).
And we worship JCA today. This also frees up Faraday to try and redirect scum to scum or catch someone in a lie.

JCA (24/36) = 66.6%

Iec - 2
Mina - 2
Nikanor - 1
DarkStalker - 1
AdumbroDeus - 1
Albatross - 1
Chronopie - 1
VV - 4
Katy - 0
MO - 2
Parama - 1
Snow - 1
Xite - 0
ooba - 4
dram - 2
Pom - 1

GOO (12/36) = 33.3%

Fate - 4
Tar - 2
DTM - 2
ABR - 2
Faraday - 2

If we lynch DS, just switch the label order. A third votes for JCA and rest vote for GOO.

[ooba]

DS I did have a flavor reason - (GOO) - Post 2489.

Also DS, you've explained your preliminary cult reference. Why does nearly every single post of yours have a "cult" in it?

---

Shared dream ability hardly clears DS. From "Cthulhu" wiki (Cult part):

The cult is noted for chanting the phrase "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn", which translates as "In his house at R'lyeh, dead Cthulhu waits dreaming."[13] This is often shortened to "Cthulhu fhtagn", which might possibly mean "Cthulhu waits", "Cthulhu dreams",[14] or "Cthulhu waits dreaming."

The character goes on to report that the Great Old Ones are telepathic and "knew all that was occurring in the universe".

They were able to communicate with the first humans by "moulding their dreams".

---

Belated Happy Birthday Katy.

That assumes that mafia would know there was someone specifically gunning for the GF. If GF had investigation immunity, and if Tar had not claimed his role then mafia very well could have saved the doctor protect for whoever was ripest for a vig. It also depends on how the mod wanted to balance Tar/DTM's chances of success. With such a power-heavy game, the mod may have wanted it to be more difficult for the lynchers to succeed if he felt that would give town an advantage. I mean so far it seems like we're doing pretty well, so maybe it was meant to be difficult for them to succeed.

This post has so much of fluff in it. (In fact all of it is non-committal ambiguous statements - even the Tar is town has an "almost" in it).
i) "If the mafia knew that someone was gunning for the GF" and "if Tar had not claimed his role" is irrelevant because he did it in the very first post of the game.
ii) I do not see how balanced it would be with a doc protecting the GF. (Unless their kill was "unstoppable" - umm, Tar\DTM can you confirm this please - would go some way in reaffirming my tnm read). If not, they are basically lynchers who do not know who their target is and whose kills are useless.

Congratulations by committing the "I-dont-want-to-semi-clear-townies-because-that-makes-my-life-tougher" tell, you have just risen to my number one candidate for mafia. Now I'll have to think if your buddying up to Iece was scum on scum or scum on town.

[ooba]

HE DID IT AGAIN.

IM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO SAW THAT RIGHT?

I saw it too! Wow, I never knew someone could do that ..

New ability in the new forums. I'm abusing the hell out of it with my new position .

[ooba]

First of all, everyone is concentrating on what I added as an afterthought to the main argument about why DS is cult.

a) Do you agree that ABR's census was true and there is a cult in this game? If your answer is "yes" or "probably leaning towards yes", move forward.
b) My case is based on the modification of the jeep tell - "People want to tell you their roles". You can call it the ooba tell if you want - "An SK or cult will display a tendency to mention these terms in the post"

c) I never started out hunting for a cult at the start of the day. While ISO'ing DS, I noticed his post about ort mentioned the word "cults" before ABR's reveal. I saw the tell worked in another large game for an SK (ongoing - cant link) and was curious to see
- Who else had mentioned cults before ABR did?
Ans: (CMAR, Mina, Parama, DS, Fate, Nikanor)
- Who else had an abnormal cults:posts ratio?
Ans:
DS - 10 out of 32 posts.
Compare to: Iece - 14 out of 400+ posts. MO - 9 out of 200+ posts.

Source: DS=Cult post.

---

So that's my case. While I would be extremely disappointed in a non-DS (since I think he's cult) lynch today, I realize there are other scum out there - will proceed with my ISOs again.

Everyone seems to be saying that I was pretty useless apart from Worship voting this game and haven't scum hunted much.
a) First off, although I expected worship analysis to be more useful like catching someone in a direct lie. (Like this post did nearly). However its not a total waste of time - I anticipate its use to increase during endgame.
b) Regarding my scum hunting, this is my first post after my N1 re-read:

Scum
Dark Stalker
dramonic
Parama
Faraday
Percy
Plum (Not sure - due to Greek Mythology history)

Nikanor

rajrhcpfreak

It has two flipped scum and one survivor in it and none of the others have flipped town yet.

P.S: Just now remembered that both dram and Iece apparently found the list "nice"...

[ooba]

DS Vote Status

- ooba, totallynotmafia, Mighty Orbots, Iecerint, Albatross, Fate, Parama, Chronopie, DTM

I honestly don't care about that. If i can take the cult out with me I think it would be justified. I reviewed my math and I was wrong thinking we caused the targeting issues. Vasu definatly did it.

But I suppose we can do it your way. Here is the alternative post I am planning to make tonight. A post likly to be the final post we make.

We are supposed to believe this is a honest mistake right? You just happen to not remove the two paras where you talk to ani in your QT ... I mean you can copy paste from the QT - format it properly (multiple quotes and bolds) - but apparently forget to even notice this in any of your previews?? (and the last line)

Anyway I'll bite - "what does we caused the targeting issues" mean?

Why didn't you claim there was the possibility of a cult way back in D1 - you never had to claim that you were not recruitable if that was the case; A simple "Guys, I have some bad news. I have info which tells me there could be a cult in this game" would have been good enough.

I am self-redirector - somebody could have claimed to use an ability on me and got a result. (Please read Greek Mythology where I was a redirector and caught scum - thnx).

[ooba]

Okay, I had it clarified with the mod the other day, but a stupid typhoon had to goddamn hit my country and kill of the electricity for a day. Fuuu.

Anyway.
It's. N1 = I target Person A.
D2 = If A worshipped X too, it kicks in, Person A is now protected.
N2 = Person A is still protected. I pick person B.
D3 = If B worshipped X too, it kicks in, Person B is now protected,

etc.

Actually, this could be a new angle for those with Focus claims seeing as I think this is the relationship between Focus and Worships.

How is this a new angle? I think I cleared this up when I discussed my redirection of Nik's QT.
Anyway, wats your take on everything that has happened in between? You've pretty much been commenting on your redirection(?) and focus since the time MO claimed.
b) What do you think of this line in DS's post - "I reviewed my math and I was wrong thinking we caused the targeting issues. Vasu definatly did it." (context: part of his conversation to ani in their QT which he *forgot* to remove before posting here)
a) What would you say if I told you my current read on you is someone who got caught in a lie and is trying to overcompensate with the SB hate; who's also trying to active lurk around just so that he can survive?

TNM, I think Nik has already chosen to QT Tar and MO. I wouldn't have minded a QT since this would be the only time I can get one (assuming I match worships going forward) but its not a biggie.

[ooba]

I never voted for ani seperately nor PF seperately, I am voting for a scummy DS who cannot stop mentioning cults. (The only point where I had to single you out was when you advocated a mina lynch, which was odd)

If i can take the cult out with me I think it would be justified. I reviewed my math and I was wrong thinking we caused the targeting issues. Vasu definatly did it.

Anyway, technically, PF is *supposed* to have said this to you but you can take a jab at it too. What does he mean by "we caused the targeting issues"?

[ooba]

If we can put the Pst behind us, I;l lgladly stop talking about cults. I'm done with it anyways, and I'm sure PF is to.

I'll stop pursuing you if you have one of these handy ..

I am unsure now about whether you're cult or mafia but seriously cannot understand the unvotes and "Oh! DS is town" statements. Maybe I am suffering from confirmation bias but over the last few posts
i) DS has claimed a role addition which states he knew about cults and cults being able to recruit gods. It was in town's best interests for him to claim partially or let that info out
ii) He has apparently discussed with ani about whether they were responsible for the VV redirection when he his claimed role HAS NOTHING even remotely close to do with redirection.

Help me out ...

[ooba]

Since IIRC there's only three claimed Focus actions (and four players with Focus seems like a safe bet given the god factions), either manho had a focus action (highly likely, IIRC) or a mortal didn't claim their focus action (say, a cult recruit).

You really should do that ISO of me ..

Also some setup news; breakdown of manho's role:

4. manho, died Night 2 by being shot (in the dick). Rolecop: Paul Atreides

manho is a role similar to Fate's; in the sense, that he does not affect his target. Reasons being his willingness to focus on anyone as long as he gets it right (he switches from VV to Iece on D2).

ii) you mean ... that thing? i focus on spyrex.

Since he got his focus right now on N1, his power should have been active on D2\N2.
The first thing manho does on D2 is to check his vote - apparently for delirium but

4 manho ( 2 ) [ 11 ] - manho

Therefore manho was an focus guy who became a double voter if he matched targets perfectly.

---

A worship plan needs to satisfy these two conditions:
a) JCA gets the maximum (since all weapons are now with others)
b) GOO has to get 20% or above
c) Have buffer enough so that "a" and "b" does not get violated

A probabilistic vote for each townie method does not satisfy this criteria.

[ooba]

DS is doing everything he can to stay alive as a fuckin cult leader. No shit.

Well, I am now unsure if he'll flip cult. I'll be glad if he did since that would be a win for the ooba tell. I'd be even be more happy if he flipped Cthulhu since I can then gloat. Right now read is that he's scum but could be mafia too.

Btw in case DS flips mafia, there's an above average chance that VV is the cult leader. A cult role which recruits if worship match could be the punisher role which Tar anticipates. I think he tried to recruit SB on N2 and was caught by the watch. To MO's argument of "But why would he try and lynch SB when an SB cult recruit flip would damn him" - a cult role like the Hypnotist where the person retains the original wincon wont flip cult but town on death (I think - Tar can correct me if I am wrong).

A few shifts to the worship plan since I really do not feel good about clubbing MO with VV.. (Flip side is that VV if town cannot use his ability on one of the prob. townies)

JCA (24/33) = 69.7%

Iec - 2
Mina - 2
Nikanor - 1
AdumbroDeus - 1
Albatross - 1
Chronopie - 1
VV - 4
Katy - 0
Parama - 1
Snow - 1
Xite - 0
ooba - 4
dram - 2
Fate - 4

GOO (10/33) = 30.3%

MO - 2
Tar - 2
DTM - 2
ABR - 2
Faraday - 2

Pom - 1 - Limbo

[ooba]

Addn: That is the worship plan with the change that VV can vote GOO (and protect one of the five for the next night) if DS flips CULT.
DS town or DS mafia flip means VV votes JCA.

[ooba]

I suppose I appreciate your trying to keep me from being recruited by cult but if he's cult then he's almost got to be recruiting people he then has to lynch or some such thing and I don't think that I'm in that much danger of getting lynched.

You're basing this recruit-and-lynch assumption based on his SB play? It *could* be an overreaction to you spotting him targeting SB. "If I get lynched as cult leader, its curtains for cult recruit SB. But if SB cult recruit dies and flips town, that at least does not incriminate me and I get to survive and recruit another night".

Preview: VV, I never quite got why scum would redirect you. (Since even SBscum was in no danger because Tar\DTM didn't actually state they disbelieved her vig status). Therefore, you targeted SB and she didn't die. Decent case. (In the event DS does not flip cult)

I think the VV voting GOO if DS flipped cult is a good plan. You already have protection roles in the form of TNM's item, Mina's ability (?). There's an above average prob. that VV might be cult and I do not want any of the almost confirmed townies to be anyway near him. In fact, if DS flips anything but cult, I'd advocate vigging VV.

[ooba]

@ooba, but why would VasudeVa bother claiming he targeted me in that case. Snow_Bunny was in no danger of getting killed particularly whether she'd flip town as a recruit or not. He'd have a great reason to want to protect her (as she was established as likely to be a town vigilante.) I just don't see why he'd bother falsely claiming that he targeted me. Perhaps you see a motive I don't?
-Zorblag R`Lyeh

He committed to targeting you in this post:

I worshiped JCA and protected you. I didn't mention it in thread to keep scum guessing.

You claimed in this post:

VasudeVa targetted Snow_Bunny last night.

He couldn't really say "oh I targeted SB" at that point could he? If your query is why didn't he claim to have targeted SB in the first place - there's a simple enough motive - insurance in case he ever flipped cult leader - I mean if he was lynched\NK'd, we'd take a close hard look at his target(s).

[ooba]

@ooba, yeah but I claimed to have watched Snow_Bunny prior to that:

Last night I used a one shot watch ability on Snow_Bunny. Three players targeted her. I can account for Mighty Orbots with the watch. The other two would have been slightly more clear if she'd claimed to have tried to have killed anyone else.

Umm missed this somehow. I retract my case on VV - he can worship GOO with you.

JCA (24/33) = 57.6%

Iec - 2
Mina - 2
Nikanor - 1
AdumbroDeus - 1
Albatross - 1
Chronopie - 1
Katy - 0
Parama - 1
Snow - 1
Xite - 0
ooba - 4
dram - 2
Fate - 4

GOO (14/33) = 42.4%

VV - 4
MO - 2
Tar - 2
DTM - 2
ABR - 2
Faraday - 2

Pom - 1 - Limbo

The brief VV detour had nothing to do with DS however - more votes please.

[ooba]

I do not see why scum would choose to hit Chrono since he was a valid lynch candidate. Unless it was to create the "Oh but DS is mafia, scum would have never hit Chrono since they were the two candidates being considered for a lynch".

MO, was that you?

Vote: DarkStalker

[ooba]

MO, just wanted to know if it was you, thats all.

Meh, I'll just go with my read of Faraday town and Chrono prob. flipping mafia. Need to check something about when each action resolves - chrono claimed JK-twilight action.

TNM, your attack does not make sense - teamwork involves setting aside your reservations at times and going ahead with the team's decisions. I will stick by my town read on you though.

[ooba]

Ooba, I can see that kind of thinking if you're in a game where deadline is approaching and you join a wagon to avoid a no-lynch, but other than that I reckon it's silly to speed someone's lynch for any other reason than you're sure they'll flip scum.

Honestly, as long as I know town knows my case on somebody (which they can reference or remember later in case I die), I'll probably swing the way the majority is heading if I realize I cannot convince them. The only exception would be in the case where I think rest of the town is playing extremely stupidly and is wagoning some sort of confirmed townie or very-unlikely-scum person.

[ooba]

JCA (19/33) = 57.6%

Iec - 2
Mina - 2
Nikanor - 1
AdumbroDeus - 1
Albatross - 1
Katy - 0
Parama - 1
Snow - 1
Xite - 0
ooba - 4
dram - 2
Fate - 4

GOO (14/33) = 42.4%

VV - 4
MO - 2
Tar - 2
DTM - 2
ABR - 2
Faraday - 2

Pom - 1 - Limbo

This was the most useful page in the entire thread - I am a better mafia player because of it

[ooba]

I don't get what you mean by that worship plan and how come I'm not on it?

People under JCA vote JCA and people under GOO vote GOO. You will fall under JCA sorry.

P.S: I blame Nikanor for leaving you out - I just reused that list ..

[ooba]

Are we sending in our worship votes now, then? I've yet to make mine official, but I'm fine with giving GOO the tier for Niki and giving JCA worship.

As long you send it before the 2-hour-prior-to-day-opening, it's ok. Also, votes have reset. Vote DS please.

Btw Fate should answer the chrono question.

[ooba]

8 votes currently on DS. 11 to lynch. (don't hammer before Fate's answer)

[ooba]

ooba: I'd really like to take a look at that item tomorrow, if you don't mind.

Sure - its yours ..

---

I believe Fate .. i.e the slip is still suspicious but vibe tells me the man is town (and its not because of the fourth ooba=good town appeal) -

---

I just cannot shake the feeling VV is scum .. MO pretty much showed me my VV=cult theory is bogus .. Here's my ISO:
esclouta: DTM -> Faraday -> MO (Iece+Parama) -> SB
VV: ooba -> manho -> Fate -> TNM -> Fate -> SB -> chrono -> Fate
- I nearly forgot about the ultra bad ooba case - "ooba town is very consistent".
- The quick unvoting of manho is neutral - "I seriously doubt that scum would have any idea of a mechanic like that." could just be bad speculation
- Plus the over-reaction to SB

Overall: esclouta voted pretty much confirmed players all throughout. VV has been generally useless by tunnelling on Fate and SB for the most part.

<speculation>VV may be a power-stealing focus guy. It makes a lot of sense. Scum always salivate at the prospect of two kills. Only problem was SB's skill was item based and not power based so couldn't be stolen.<\speculation>

Tar\MO, VV is a great vig target. I am not saying it because I want to survive or protect my *scumbuddies* or to make an protective role vanish. I just "feel" it - please do an ISO on him ...

[ooba]

Ok, we've established that he COULD be the cult leader, anyone care to summerize the case that he actually is?

Post 2599
- Explains the cult angle I initially started with.
Response: DS said he was a passive ability where he cannot get recruited at night. Hence explaining the high number of cult references. (Part of the tell was that a role to do with an SK - say psychologist will also mention SK a lot)

- Keeping out a vital piece of info on day one. Why not just say "Hey guys we might have a cult here"
Response: Says his role does not specify whether he is immune to mafia or cult-recruiting.

- Not divulging all parts of the role at massclaim

The below is something which will make tar go "ooba-don't-be-stupid" but I'll believe it just the same
- Post 2605 has a bit where DS *apparently* forgets to leave out a bit of the QT talk. I find this entire unbelievable given that the formatting involved would have made him preview it at least once.

- Even if you take it at face value, there's the bit about "we caused the targeting issues" when his role has nothing remotely to do with redirection.
Response: PF says above that the "we" meant townies here but ani's response here - Post 2619 clearly indicates it was not.

---

Overall: I think the "Unrecruitable" bit came after they realized the wagon ain't dying down. Much better lynch as compared to Fate.

MO, the mean reason to VV not being scum is probably the fact that he said he targeted you even after you said you had used a one-shot watch on SB. While it is compelling, we cannot rule out the possibility that he might have just missed that bit as it was two pages back.
I find SB's claim on D2 aka "I shot SpyreX" to be something scum would not have done as it puts her in the spotlight.

[ooba]

Remember, I only get people in my waiting room for a day so I don't get to continuously ask questions (which reminded me to send a PM to beholder to make sure chrono gets a spot).

Last Wishes: I have the ability to communicate with any players who are in the "dead but not yet buried" group. This is done through a quicktopic established for the purpose. All dead but not buried players are included. (passive)

If its a passive ability why do you need to send a PM?

[ooba]

@Tarhalindur, let me post first in the quick topic. It won't take me long once it's open.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Considering I'm likely to be gone for a few hours today anyways, that shouldn't be a problem.

I think what he meant was "do not send in any kills until I've had a chance to chat with you", not "I'd like the honor of posting first in the QT"

[ooba]

Adding the worship plan here for those who haven't had time to read through the thread. If your name is under JCA, you vote JCA. If your name is under GOO, you vote GOO.

JCA (20/34) = 60.6%

Iec - 2
Mina - 2
Nikanor - 1
AdumbroDeus - 1
Albatross - 1
Katy - 0
Parama - 1
Snow - 1
Xite - 0
ooba - 4
dram - 2
Fate - 4
TNM - 1

GOO (14/34) = 39.4%

VV - 4
MO - 2
Tar - 2
DTM - 2
ABR - 2
Faraday - 2

Pom - 1 - Limbo

[ooba]

@DarkStalker, if you get a chance to post before the twilight ends, were you the one responsible for the main thread night talk on Night Two?

Just an effect of GOO worship - just as the lottery was an effect of JCA worship on N2. (Beholder mentions it in the day start post I think)

[ooba]

I am happy I survived !!!

Claim your worship votes now please. I worshiped JCA as I said I would.

[ooba]

We had a total of 24 votes.
- 13 for GOO
- 11 for JCA

1. Albert B. Rampage was killed Night 4. His body was found shot (in the dick). Rolecop: Loki

-> DTM

11. Pomegranate was killed Night 4. She was killed in exchange for another. Rolecop: Ra

-> I'm guessing Tar on Dramonic

16. Snow_Bunny was killed Night 4. His body was found shot by an energy weapon. Rolecop: Lucky Dirak

-> Mafia kill

Dram has lost his ability since his meat shield was killed (Hence nobody in limbo today)

[ooba]

Things to do

Claiming worship choices

5. dramonic
7. Fate
10. Parama
12. totallynotmafia
14. VasudeVa (replaces Elscouta)
17. Nikanor
18. Mina, returned to the game Day 3.
20. Katy
21. Tarhalindur
23. Albatross (replaces Kairyuu)
25. AdumbroDeus (Replaces CryMeARiver)
26. Iecerint
27. LynchMePls (replaces Xmite81 (replaces FlipScythe (replaces Ortolan)))
28. DTMaster

Claims (

in this order*

)

25. AdumbroDeus -> At any time - does not matter
- news from Chronopie, DS you got in the night
- Pom's actual claim (if she's survivor - since her original claim is obvious false)
- Whatever ABR, SnowBunny have to say

7. Fate
17. Nikanor
18. Mina
20. Katy

9. Mighty Orbots

2. Faraday

* AD can claim whenever he wants. The order between Fate, Nikanor, Mina and Katy does not matter BUT MO claims only after the four of them have claimed AND faraday claims only after MO has claimed. Let me know if I've missed someone out. (or if I got the vig choices wrong)

I protected Faraday. I am not claiming my focus target.

[ooba]

BlazezRb ( 2 ) - CryMeARiver, S_B
manho ( 2 ) - Nikator, Fate
dramonic ( 1 ) - DTMaster
chronopie ( 3 ) - Katy, Iecerint, DarkStalker
Fate ( 5 ) - MightyOrbots, Rampage, manho, Xite91
totallynotmafia ( 3 ) - Plum, BlazeRb, ChroniePie
DarkStalker ( 3 ) - ooba, raj, totallynotmafia
Snow_Bunny ( 1 ) - VasudeVa
CryMeARiver ( 1 ) - Tar
Iecerint ( 2 ) - dramonic, Albatross
Not Voting - Mina, Percy, Parama

Fate ( 1 ) - Chroniepie
totallynotmafia ( 3 ) - Faraday, Dramonic, Nikator
DarkStalker ( 1 ) - TotallyNotMafia
Snow_Bunny ( 1 ) - Vas
Albatross ( 1 ) - Snow_Bunny
rajrhcpfreak ( 12 ) - Orbots, Iece, Fate, Pom, Albatross, Parama, Xite91, Snow_Bunny, DTM, Katy, Tar, Ooba
AdumbroDeus ( 1 ) - DarkStalker
Xite91 ( 1 ) - Rampage
Not Voting(1) - Mina

Albert B. Rampage ( 0 ) - Xite91, Parama
chronopie ( 0 ) - VasudeVa, Nikanor, DarkStalker, Mina, Albert B. Rampage, Snow_Bunny
DarkStalker ( 0 ) - ooba, totallynotmafia, Mighty Orbots, Iecerint, Albatross, Fate, chronopie, DTMaster, Tarhalindur
Not Voting(4) - Faraday, dramonic, AdumbroDeus, Katy

I've corrected only the third VC as it was the easiest to do.

---

Umm. I'm not great at wagon analysis but it looks bad for Vas, Dramonic. (Mina too but I'll attribute it to catching up as she's not voting twice)

Anyway I think TNM, Iece, Katy are town with my night re-read.

AdumbroDeus, Parama, VasudeVa, dramonic are scum probables.

LynchMePls to a lesser extent than these four.
One of these four shall be lynched today.

P.S: If scum think I might have used it only on these five, then reconsider. I might have used it as a "catch all" - aka a backup in case these do not turn out to be scum.

---

Tar, what do you think of VV?

Also, Halo uses energy weapons.

[ooba]

Nik, are you planning to tell people about the item?

[ooba]

Things to do

Claiming worship choices

12. totallynotmafia
25. AdumbroDeus (Replaces CryMeARiver)
Unknown: SB, ABR

Claims (

in this order*

)

25. AdumbroDeus -> At any time - does not matter
- news from Chronopie, DS you got in the night
- Pom's actual claim (if she's survivor - since her original claim is obvious false)
- Whatever ABR, SnowBunny have to say

18. Mina -> Claim your results please

9. Mighty Orbots

2. Faraday

[ooba]

Katy, please pass your item to me.

Mina, I must have missed your claim. Are you claiming "Zombie" on LMP?

[ooba]

Also, I would appreciate Katy's item going to a person currently in the network. (I'd have said Nikanor, but since he now seems to have TNM's doc item I'd say pass it to me instead.)

I'd rather not waste an item since you cannot use abilities of two items at the same time. Katy, you should pass the item to me.

[ooba]

Also, I would appreciate Katy's item going to a person currently in the network. (I'd have said Nikanor, but since he now seems to have TNM's doc item I'd say pass it to me instead.)

I'd rather not waste an item since you cannot use abilities of two items at the same time. Katy, you should pass the item to me.

In case you hadn't noticed, ooba, S_B is dead. My item is no longer usable.

Just noticed the Useless ability. I'd still like the Pendulum though .
Btw you must have missed this - what are your thoughts on VV?

[ooba]

I think we should let him claim targets for last night before I answer.

Worshipped GOO, protecting MO. Other than that, nothing else that I know of.

[ooba]

There's a track running around the network last night, and it confirms that VV targeted Orbots.

Network:
- You
- DTM
- MO
- Faraday
- Nikanor
- Iecerint

With the exception of Mina (even whom I'll put on the town side of neutral if I had to take a call), all of you are most probably not Mafia. I hope however that each one of you keeps at the back of your mind that there might be a cult member(s) amongst you who will have their own motives.

My gut tells me ABR will flip town and we do have a cult in the game. If SB flips cult, I'd wager money on MO or VV being cult leader. (MO more than VV) - but I am not investigating the cult angle till I see the SB\ABR flips.

Waiting for all three explanations but this is my preferred order currently: dram > LMP > Katy.

MO is right regarding the item. Please do not give it to me.

[ooba]

Iecerint, you sound different this day - almost like a different person.

[ooba]

Good shot.

Vote: dram

[ooba]

Katy, please pass your item to me.

No. I am willing to pass my item to someone, but I don't trust you. I will pass it to Tarlahindur.

You should read the entire thread first. But why don't you trust me?

Nik, I would like a QT with Faraday. Thanks.

[ooba]

ebwop: Nik, I would like a QT with Faraday please. Thanks.

[ooba]

Wait, Fate is claiming the shots?
ooba, I assume you didn't use your redirect last night, then (or you used it on LMP).
I have decided who I want to QT tonight. The people getting QTs will know when they get them. Just give me another 5 minutes so I can send it in, and we can commence with the lynching.

Don't waste it on me. Just remembered the redirection... This sucks ..

[ooba]

Oh .. Before I forget .. Pretty sure dram is today's lynch but this info has to come out ..

GOO claimed
Mighty Orbots 2
Faraday 2
Nikanor 1
DTMaster 2
VasudeVa (replaces Elscouta) 4
Tarhalindur 2

Total: 13. Actual: 13

JCA claimed
ooba 4
Parama 1
Fate 4
Albatross (replaces Kairyuu) 1
Iecerint 2
Mina 2

Total: 14. Actual: 11

Unclaimed
ABR 2
TNM 1
AD 1

Dram - Did not vote

Nik - do not see any reason to claim that now. Anyway AD, TNM need to claim their worship votes before the lynch.

[ooba]

Those numbers have me scared..

WHAT IF SCUM ROLEBLOCKED ME AND MY WORSHIPS?

OH NOOOOOOOO I DONT WANNA DIE!

Hmm if anybody was roleblocked w.r.t worships it probably would have been me.

Nik, if you were initially considering giving me the QT, do it. (Do not confirm in the thread whether you did or didnt). In fact do not claim your targets until D6.
- If I am in a QT, it means I was worship blocked (if that is even possible)
- If not and my target is town, nothing lost
- If not and my target is scum, they will have to take a call between whether you actually gave them the QT or whether it came to me and was redirected to them.

At least confirms if I was worship blocked which I think is important.

[ooba]

@Nikanor, please do confirm that you've read the QT.

@DTMaster, a couple questions you asked should be clear but here are some answers. Someone in the network got a rolecop result of zombie on LynchMePls (correctly based on the recent flip) and

the original JCA items had the oversoul ability activated through worship

. It seems that the additional items probably have the oversoul activated by working three times.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

The bolded part is impossible.
- Only the original players can use oversoul ability.

Preview: Iece, its not three missing - its three extra.. Hence my thoughts on being worship-blocked since one of TNM or AD voting JCA would make it four extra meaning me or Fate were blocked (or) Fate didn't vote. A couple of 2-2s not voting also makes sense .. Lol@Iecerint and Mina - I should probably get the scummie if thats the case.

Nik, which part of "If I claim now, I effectively lose whatever semi NK immunity" part don't you get? everytime scum think of killing me, they'll have to think if I focus'd them. Of course, thats moot if they stop me worshipping which is why I'd like to know that ...

[ooba]

@ooba, yes, only the original holders could use the oversoul ability and it was activated for them by JCA being worshiped. What's impossible about that?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

You clubbed that info with the Rolecop on LMP so I thought somebody in the network claimed info based on an oversoul ability - which can be used by the original player. Hence my impossible comment.

[ooba]

Also AdumbroDeus is clearly avoiding this thread.

Posts on site since last post here: 15.

[ooba]

@ ooba.

Wat. 14 were supposed to vote. 11 voted. 3 fewer is what let this be a GOO day rather than a JCA day. I have no idea what you're talking about. Also, you need at least one odd-numbered voter/(vote manip) to make up a 3 unit difference.

If you were worship-blocked, we'd be at (n-4) rather than (n-3).

It seems like everyone else knows what ooba's talking about, though, so please teach me.

We have three unclaimed in ABR 2, TNM 1, AD 1.
I am guessing ABR did not worship because of "Life".
If TNM or AD come and say they worshiped JCA as planned, it means we are looking at (n-4) or even (n-5). We will know if TNM and AD claim their worship. I thought (n-4) + me\fate being a 4-voter was too much of a coincidence to not be examined as a possibility.

[ooba]

@Fate and ooba, neither of you got messages yesterday about your worship being blocked or removed did you? I assume you would have said something by now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

No messages.

Tar, that is strange. An obvious no from me and I'll let the others answer that first.

[ooba]

Of course, I suppose Katy could be a cult leader who turns people into Zombies. Someone who hadn't been lynchable day one would be a tempting recruit. If so we should catch her at that if dramonic flips a Zombie

(and possibly Snow_Bunny depending on the order of actions.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Explain the bolded bit for me.

[ooba]

@ooba, Katy was redirected to Snow_Bunny last night. If the kills happen before cult recruitment then Snow_Bunny probably wouldn't have been recruited if Katy is cult. If the cult recruitment happens first then Snow_Bunny would have. That assumes that cult recruitment is subject to redirecting of course, whenever I ask about such things I always get the answer that actions are subject to redirects unless they aren't.

I'll have more to say on this once I see the SB flip.

Lynch dram. If he turns up mafia (him turning up cult is negligible), Katy is not mafia. Last(?) mafiaite is someone who knew about the katy - redirect to SB - probably mina. (The "Can we lynch Katy instead of dram?" also adds to this).

[ooba]

DTM you should participate more in this game - each player has already claimed N1\N2 actions - use an ISO to find out.

Albatross had an item which could redirect a player. That item was with Faraday.
N2, Faraday redirected SB -> Percy.
Very clearly the N3 redirection of Katy -> SB was done by Faraday.

VV was apparently redirected to SB by some other redirecter but I now believe this is not true. However I would like to see an SB flip before I think more on this.

I think most probably the N1 kill was on Tar since he lost his bulletproof. The lack of a mafia kill on N2 can be due to many reasons - CMAR's unkillability, Iece's invulnerability, TNMs protect of Parama, VV's ability etc.

[ooba]

What are you trying to say?

That Tar's shot on N1 and SB's kill were from both the same faction aka the Mafia? That is pretty obvious.

That the missing N2 kill can give you confirmed townies? Not really since
- TNM has claimed he doc protected Parama
- Iece has claimed NK immunity in some situations
- CMAR\AD would have been NK immune due to GOO worship on D2\N2
- VV has claimed a double NK protect role
Take your pick but you cannot confirm anyone because there are too many possibilities.

[ooba]

Ok here are some of my thoughts.

It stems from the fact that anyway you think of it,

a scum redirection of VV to SB does not make sense

. Even if SB was scum, she was in no trouble from the Tar\DTM pair, so why waste it? Why not redirect say DTMs kill?

Cult theory

My first reaction was that there is no redirector at all and this pointed to cult.
a) VV could be cult leader who had bad luck and was caught by MO watching.
But MO pointed out some of the holes in that theory i.e the fact that he had already claimed to be watching SB before VV declared his target; Bottomline: VV should have just said he protected SB since she was an all powerful vig
b) My second theory revolved around MO being cult - I held this for most of N4 and for sometime after D5 started. I mean he already knew Faraday was targeting SB, why not just say VV targeted SB as an insurance policy? I mean if SB flips cult, everyone would say "VV is cult" but not many would think of MO faking his watch result.
But even this theory had problems. If I recruited SB, why would I want to draw unnecessary attention to my recruit which might even get her killed? And why would I even want to risk recruiting the same person I said I might most definitely watch.

Mafia theory

I was back at square one. VV could be power stealing mafia but that case is same as the one above.
But then I thought about it. What if my axiom was wrong - "Mafia scum redirection of VV to SB made no sense".

Point i -

It does make sense if you know that MO might watch SB - it throws a whole lot of suspicion on VV and SB. But how could have mafia known that MO might watch.

I really do think that the redirector should have been redirecting as they know that watching Snow_Bunny was on my list of potential actions

Therefore MO told Faraday that he might do this.

Point ii -

Katy is probably not scum. I mean do an ISO on her - her voting plus interactions do not give me that feeling. She is probably telling the truth of her role cop result on SB. But SB died - was it by coincidence that they choose to kill SB that very night? Again please note that this info was discussed in the white council QT.

So my point? I think these are both two occasions of mafia using claimed actions of MO\Faraday to paint townies scummy.
- Who listens in to the white council QT?
- Who said "Oh. DS is starting to sound really really genuine - Lets lynch chronopie"?
- Who said "We should lynch Katy cause she was lying?"

Mina:

When I went through her ISO, I thought Mina was too blatant to be scum but recent events make me think otherwise. (Plus a dram mafia flip would all but confirm it - I mean read her last few posts where she questions tar and "would prefer a lynch but not now"). I prefer dram over her now because I still want to see the SB slip. (and ABR flip but can already sense how that'll go). If SB flips town, you can be sure Mina is your scum. SB flipping cult means more thinking

---

Addn: Possible scum redirector.

I honestly don't care about that. If i can take the cult out with me I think it would be justified. I reviewed my math and I was wrong thinking

we caused the targeting issues

. Vasu definatly did it.

They say that there's always some truth in a barrel of lies. I think DS was the scum redirector (which also explains the lack of a second redirection today i.e best move for scum is to redirect Tar to some other semi-confirmed townie)

[ooba]

@TNM: I did not expect scum to kill Tar\MO since they were obvious protects. So I expected them to go for someone else who was confirmed. Plus Faraday had the redirect item. (I asked the mod what would happen to items if we are killed and he said item would remain in the game)

@Iece: Read through the reasoning again. If SB flips town, it means there was no cult shenanigans involved. VV could be mafia power stealer (but unless he didn't pay attention - not likely). Therefore Mafia redirected VV to SB to paint both of them scummy. Who was in on this info?? Mina.

@MO: I expect dram to flip mafia - lets see.

[ooba]

Why is Faraday confirmed?

He redirected SB to Percy (Mafia godfather) on N2. MO watched SB - saw it happen.
(Unless of course they are scum together)

[ooba]

@ooba, hmm, if Mina was the mafia member who had to do the killing that might fit the lack of a kill Night Two. There are still a number of reasons I don't think this should be the case but we'll see what we get from flips shortly I suppose.

Do you have a cult guess in this scenario? Unless Albert B. Rampage is mafia as well which doesn't seem to be something you believe there's still cult somewhere.

Cult guess would be Iece - ooba tell on cults + his reaction saying "Fate is probable cult leader" seems to support this. And if Tar thinks cult leader is mortal, what better way to disguise this than a Too human fakeclaim .. Clearly rolecops are our weapons against the cult ..

Not sure I buy your cyclical theory of mafia appointment killers. I'd just say they tried to kill Parama.

Iece: If SB flips cult, I'll re-examine my VV cult leader theory who didn't pay attention to the thread theory. I do not think Cult and town flip cases are the same.

TNM: VV was redirected to SB on N2. (not confirmed) Katy was redirected to SB on N4. (confirmed) - I'll make a list of actions - whatever your highness and DTM wants of course

[ooba]

@ooba, and if Mina had a rolecop ability would that change anything for you?

I don't disagree that an Parama kill seems somewhat likely for the mafia Night Two regardless of whatever else we're working with.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I was just about to post that. It just adds to my theory:
- One role cop for the mafia (Mina)
- One role cop for the town (Katy)
We might want to make a deal with Mina(keep her alive) if dram flips scum.

[ooba]

I find Iecerint's play different from both the most recent scum and town game I've played with him. Iece, are you a third party role here?

Lol. I might have called the cult leader on D1

[ooba]

@ooba, well, I also had a rolecop ability which I've claimed (used on SaintKerrigan as a join alignment cop/role cop Night One, got Set) so there are at least three out there (Katy's which seems to be something like it, mine and the one that I'm claiming from the network from last night.) It doesn't mean that they're not meant to be there to find cult of course.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Hmm. But you're a JoAT so I do not see how that affects things since a limited role cop does not seem overpowered for the town. (Esp. if the cult leader is "deathproof in some situations"!).

Anyway, all these are dependent on the flips and I do not want to get too ahead of myself.

[ooba]

@ooba, does your Mina as scum theory take into account that dramonic (who would be her scum partner) decided to use her as his Limbo protection night one rather than some member of the town? I could see ways that it does but I don't know that it's the way I would use that ability were I scum.

Well Mina was under fire on D1 for her play. I might put a scumbuddy who's in danger of being lynched in Limbo.. Not particularly the best play - I mean I would have personally locked up SpyreX and claimed something else.. But if you are going to claim limbo abilities - saving your scumbuddy from a lynch seems like a good choice - seems pro-town too ...

[ooba]

Just noticed a problem with my dram\Mina last mafia theory:
- ABRs census includes 25 people - which means Mina wasn't included (I prefer this to the LMP wasn't included speculation) - hence we have 6 mafia without Mina. Just saying that if both dram\mina flip scum - then we have one more left. (Maybe like AD)

[ooba]

He also believes that Ooba is the cult leader as the prophet of truth (flavor reasons, it sounds like a cult leader).

"Soon the Great Journey shall begin. But when it does, the weight of your heresy will stay your feet. And you shall be left behind."

@DTM: Oversoul and possession are the names on TNMs item too. Tar should not pass you the item because he would be unable to use the dowsing pendulum in this cycle.

@Mina:
- How is the second point regarding questioning Fate even relevant to confirming yourself?
"Let's look at that wagon. The first confirmed scum is raj, at Spot #9. None of the players before him on that wagon really make sense as Mafia at this point."
Fate started the wagon. Contradictory much?

Mina, these are the two arguments you've given to confirm yourself
- Flavor based
- The third is just wrong. If anybody had bussed you to the point of getting you close to lynch it might have made sense - a fourth vote hardly says anything.

top of the ooba list and is wanting to kill someone that cant defend thierself.

vote: DarkStalker

Oh wait raj couldn't have been scum with DS! We should have "confirmed" DS.

[ooba]

Is the wagon on me based on my fairly active lurking or my dubious claim?
Because at this point I'm pretty sure lurker hunting is a waste of a lynch.

Connections aka Voting patterns and who you comment upon. And your attack on my first D2 post.

Nik, how did you receive this info?

[ooba]

Nik, how did you receive this info?

It's a secret. :p
Actually, I'm keeping that person's identity a secret to protect the innocent.

As long as its the very person who gave you that info, tis fine. If someone else claimed "I've got info", then it doesn't make sense.

Btw there is one argument against Tar's flavor based Harvey Dent thing - why is Dram immune to delirium? A white knight piece (not human) could be considered to be immune to delirium .. In fact, Dram might be the counter role to Tar's. One of the batman roles would have probably had him as Two face.

Need to think a bit more about this game.

Unvote. Vote:AdumbroDeus

Until we get D5 info

[ooba]

Mortal

(9/11):

Faraday, dramonic, Fate, ooba, Might Orbots, VasudeVa, Mina, Tarhalindur, DTMaster,

rajrhcpfreak

,

manho

Gods

(7/16):

Parama, totallynotmafia, Nikanor, Katy, Albatross, AdumbroDeus, Iecerint,

Albert B. Rampage

,

Chronopie

,

Pomegranate

,

DarkStalker

,

Snow_Bunny

,

InHimshallIbe

,

SaintKerrigan

,

SpyreX

,

BlazeRB

*

Norse

(1/4):

Iecerint,

Albert B. Rampage

,

InHimshallIbe

,

BlazeRB

*

Egyptian

(1/4):

Katy,

Chronopie

,

Pomegranate

,

SaintKerrigan

*

Judea-Christian Angels

(3/4):

Parama, totallynotmafia, Albatross,

Snow_Bunny

*

Great Old Ones

(2/4):

Nikanor, AdumbroDeus,

SpyreX

,

DarkStalker

Those are the people left alive and their affiliations.
We probably have all the Godscum taken out, so we can continue on with the killing of the mortals until they are all dead.

I count only two dead godscum. There should be four (possibly more if cult recruits are involved) assuming even remotely even distribution of scum. The only advantage I see to killing off mortals is that I'd guess that the cult leader is somewhat more likely to be a mortal than a god (but in that case there should be NO surviving mortal Mafiosos - best guess for surviving scum would be Katy and a JCA, except that I have Katy read as cult right now).

At the moment, I'm actually leaning towards lynching Katy over dram. It would answer a couple of questions, and the timing of that worship strip suggests to me that she was responsible for it.

Unvote if voting, Vote: Katy

Questions:
1. If it were Mafia who were stripping worship votes why wouldn't they take out me or Fate (if he ain't mafia). After all more worship votes and increases their options on whom to kill?
2. Nikanor seems to indicate below that losing powers = cult recruitment. This doesn't even make sense if he got a "player lost all his abilities" from you. Did he really think you just claimed cult?

I also have some new information that someone has lost all of their abilities during this day, after LMP was killed. I think we're looking at a Mentor-type cult leader role that recruits during the day.
I think that at the beginning of day two, the Mentor recruited ortolan. When ort was replaced, the replacements saw that their role name was Zombie and that they didn't have any abilities, so they just claimed that their role name was the same as Katy's result.

3. Did you get the item from Katy?

[ooba]

I wouldn't like to lynch either of the claimed rolecops today.

Got a theory - Cultees actually lose their worship vote. (Have no idea why tar claimed though or if he's cult)
- Case in point: LMP\Xite\Ort couldn't worship vote (I'm assuming Zombie as cult here)

N1 Recruit: Xite
N2 Recruit: Probably Tar or Albatross
N3 Recruit: None
N4 Recruit: Analyzing Worship votes

GOO claimed

Mighty Orbots 2
Faraday 2
Nikanor 1
DTMaster 2
VasudeVa (replaces Elscouta) 4
Tarhalindur 2
Total: 13. Actual: 13

JCA claimed

ooba 4
Parama 1
Fate 4
Albatross (replaces Kairyuu) 1
Iecerint 2
Mina 2
TNM 1
AD 1
Total: 16. Actual: 11

Unclaimed

ABR 2 - probably didn't vote

Given that GOO worship actually works out
- Tar did have his worship at N4 and was stripped on D5 like he claimed (or) I'm wrong about ABR not voting
- Albatross mostly N2 recruit cause we are missing (4+1) votes (or) One of the mafiaites decided not to worship vote
- Fate is the N4 recruit

[ooba]

On a re-read, Tar is most likely the N2 recruit
- Bluffing the day-kill at the start of D3 - he became powerless and lost it more like it
- And the entire thing about not trusting ooba and probabilistic worship voting on N4

So here's how I see it

One of the 1's has lied and is mafia: Parama, Albatross, TNM , AD
Current cult recruits are: Tar and Fate

If you want to test this theory out, lynch Fate. He is powerless right now and should flip zombie.

I'd rather aim for the mafia\cult leader rather than the lowly recruits through.

[ooba]

Unvote. Vote: Faraday

- based on xite defense
- claimed one-shot vig on xite
- Probably redirected VV to SB knowing MO will be watching to set up VV

[ooba]

So what do you think of 3044 and 3046? Particularly
- Cult lose worship votes theory?
- Tar and Fate being probable recruits ..

[ooba]

Unvote. Vote: Faraday

- based on xite defense
- claimed one-shot vig on xite
- Probably redirected VV to SB knowing MO will be watching to set up VV

nice case, except you're being, ya know stupid. what would have happened had snow_bunny not killed Inhim (and considering there was a list of 6-7 players this was pretty high wasn't it?) I get watched and the re-directing doesn't work and I'm boned.

Yeah, stop being stupid kthnx.

"After much discussion it was decided that they would target Snow_Bunny with the redirect and redirect her shot to inHimshallibe (as we weren't sure that we trusted her judgment after Night One.) The person doing the redirect was the one who made the call about who they were redirecting to and I suggested a number of names of which inHimshallibe was only one.

I pretty strongly suspect that if they wanted to they could have redirected the shot (explosion actually, based on flavor) to someone other than scum if they had wanted to without making me suspicious.

"
I'd like MO to confirm\elaborate more about this and timing. Whether you confirmed inhim before day results were shown.

Anyway I just added that as an afterthought because I still do not understand VV targeting SB. You responded to the the weakest point first ... Ironically its a Tar tell ...

I'm actually arguing that you're cult, not scum ...

[ooba]

ebwop: I'm actually arguing that you're cult, not mafia ...

[ooba]

In what way does that make sense as an argument for me cult. WHAT HAPPENED TO MY FUCKING RE-DIRECTION OF SNOW TO INHIM? 'Oops I forgot' probably won't work since I confirmed I'd be sending the action in in the qt.
Unless Snow is cult that makes no sense. I did defend xite, and did claim the 1-shot vig on them. What part of that was I supposed to respond to?

- If you confirmed inhim before day actions were revealed then retract that point

- If Xite\LMP is cult, one would expect the cult leader to have some links to him? I will repost those quotes here if you want
- Check out the other mortals in the game - is there a notable power difference in your claimed role and others?

5. dramonic
7. Fate
8. ooba
9. Mighty Orbots
14. VasudeVa (replaces Elscouta)
18. Mina, returned to the game Day 3.
20. Katy
21. Tarhalindur
28. DTMaster

TNM might be mafia who has some info on ya actually - explains his play. Although that would mean Mina\dram theory is wrong ..

[ooba]

Hmm.... I just realized that Fate's a one-shot revivor too so you finding LMP town is probably the only thing I have...

So what do you think of 3044 and 3046? Particularly
- Cult lose worship votes theory?
- Tar and Fate being probable recruits ..

@DTM: Tar and Fate are recruits. I am still analyzing who's the cult leader. Can you read back in your QT and see what Tar said about the daykill please?

[ooba]

Actually if Faraday was cult leader, he can only redirect one person. His regular action would be a recruit. Now if Faraday was a redirector, he can redirect twice. MO confirms Faraday's actions on Snow bunny.

Unless Faraday can triple action in one night Ooba, your theory is flawed.

- I think its very clear that my argument was "Faraday never redirected SB but choose to redirect VV to SB knowing MO would be watching".
- To which Faraday replied that he had confirmed his SB->inhim redirect Before the day results were out
- Hence not true (pending MO confirmation on what Faraday said)
Read.

Answer the question about the day kill please.

[ooba]

Something spooky -- if Tar's worship didn't work, that means someone covered for him, right (since we hit 13 even without him)?

Or else ABR could've done it.

To be entirely fair, ABR worship voted even on previous nights.

1. If scum is striping people of their voting powers, it makes more sense for scum to strip people from JCA, if they don't have any good OS members there. Giving JCA the majority allows them to have a wider variety of skills that can WIFOM night actions.

Worship votes aren't meant to increase scum targets, that makes no logical sense. Since worships grant a wide variety of powers in thread or across the factions, it means that MO's plan about Item swapping is working.

What doesn't add up is Tar is now worship stripped.

You'll have to explain this one again
- What is OS?
- Why does JCA vote stripping make sense? Have you take in account that oversoul works only for JCA players and all JCA items are with other people right now?

Preview: See, the point still holds if he did not confirm in QT before day results that he was surely redirecting SB to inhim. Of course since he says it was not the case and he did confirm during the night, its a moot point.

Preview: Fine. I guess cult just strips people of worship votes then.

[ooba]

3. If S_B flips town, then Faraday would have been super lucky to guess the result at night because there was a long list and I was shooting someone too.

But Faraday claimed that Ihim would die via S_B redirect the night before the kill cause he was redirecting.

Hence you're arguing Faraday is scum with S_B.

You fail at reading. I've already said if the bolded was true, then the point is moot ... Preview: Although MO says decided, he also says we discussed a list of names and Faraday could have targetted someone else without suspicion so I just want him to confirm it ..

1. Unless he majority of JCA aren't scum, then disabling them is a good thing. Having potential RBs and full tracks = bad for scum. Even though we are swapping items, we can give them back to use RBs, or full track/watch what ever Parama's item is.
2. You answered what OS is, it's over soul.

This argument does not hold water - Even if all the JCA were worship stripped, the rest of the town could still worship JCA to give them those abilities.
Scum would want to go for people's whose abilities depend on worshipping properly - me, Fate and VV. If we are worship stripped we become VTs.

[ooba]

Just noticed a big hole in my earlier cult recruit analysis - a cult recruiter would have to be mad to recruit tar before inhim dying .. Why recruit someone whose most probably dying ..

D1 is either Katy (0) + Xmite81 (0)
D2 can be Katy (0) + Xmite81 (0) + Tarhalindur (2) + Albatross (1)
D3 cannot be anyone
D4 has to be Fate
D5 -???

My call:
D1 - LMP
D2 - Albatross
D3 - ....
D4 - Fate
D5 - Tar

Albatross, Fate - if you also lost your souls - you should claim it now... Its the pro town thing to do ..

Regarding ABR's census - it works with a hypnotist type cult where people retain their original wincon until a certain trigger is fulfilled ..

[ooba]

More thoughts .. I was thinking more about the theory .. I think the key is to understand what Xite's role was ..

wayward = following no clear principle or law : unpredictable

- A role which just keeps shifting alignments
- With a 2 shot death immunity
- He was actually voteless
The initial rolename flip would have been "Benevolent spirit", "Evil Spirit" or "Zombie" depending on which alignment he flipped
My guess is that the final role flip will be "Wayward spirit", Alignment "None" or "Cult" since thats the alignment with which he died

Now my theory that xite was recruited day one doesn't add up again because a cult leader will not recruit someone who is going to be lynched - the "zombie" flip led me to that conclusion but I guess it was just Xite's role

Therefore:
D1: Katy
D2: Albatross
D3: None
D4: Fate
D5: Tar

This accounts for ALL worship misses, each day. I have a pretty good idea who the cult leader is - just need to read back and see if its right ...

Also we are looking at 1 cult leader, 2 mafia, 4 converted (or soul lost) townies, 9 normal townies - not a rosy picture for town...

[ooba]

Mina, there is nothing confusing about the game. I've made headway on the cult issue .. (I'll get back to Mafia probables later in the night)

These people cannot be the cult leader:

8. ooba

7. Fate
21. Tarhalindur
23. Albatross (replaces Kairyuu)
20. Katy
- Recruits (Plus Tar started out as the Modified Lyncher)

28. DTMaster
- Modified Lyncher

---

Not as sure, but will still say not cult leader:

5. dramonic
- Setup reasons: Too public an ability

18. Mina, returned to the game Day 3.
- Fact that she role-cop'd LMP and said Zombie - could have lied

---

Candidates:

2. Faraday
9. Mighty Orbots
10. Parama
12. totallynotmafia
14. VasudeVa (replaces Elscouta)
17. Nikanor
25. AdumbroDeus (Replaces CryMeARiver)
26. Iecerint

---

Just re-read, out of all of these, Iecerint is our best choice for cult leader

a) Reaction of cult recruits

Albatross

Albratross reads as new scum since he just went back on his Ice case from yesterday.

wut?

DTM follows up in 1147. His only reply is that it might be confirmation bias on Iece. Keeps him at town\neutral from then on. Never really attacks Iece.

Fate

Unvote:
Vote: Iecrint

Well I'm always down for an Iec lynch.

Hmm, mentions lynching Iecerint and a ""Don't worry you'll be getting a bullet very soon"" but does not vote him from D4 start and after.

Tar

D4 He was ready to lynch Iece at the start of the day- "REALLY would like to see a totallynotmafia or Iecerint lynch right now". D5 - granted only three posts - but no mention of Iece.

Katy

For those who've been in the game since D1, I don't even have to pull up Katy - Iece links. In fact I thought they were masons based on how hard she was defending him.

b) ooba tell

Sure this ain't exactly surefire but Iecerint has mentioned "cult" the most number of times in this game
Plus I called out his behaviour at the start of D1:

I find Iecerint's play different from both the most recent scum and town game I've played with him. Iece, are you a third party role here?

c) Setup spec

- I would expect the cult leader to have some sort of NK immunity or bulletproof
- Tar (before he was recruited) speculated that he expects cult to be mortal. How better to disguise a mortal than as a "Too Human" god with 2 worship votes ..

I think "a" by itself is a good reason to

Unvote. Vote: Iecerint

Thoughts welcome ...

[ooba]

@Mina
- I always re-read the game at night and see who prob scum are. I had AdumbroDeus, Parama, VasudeVa, dramonic as the probables.
- LMP was a non-mafia read due to his D1 lynch. In fact, I would be shocked if he turned up mafia. Your zombie rolecop info came out a bit late - that was the point when I started thinking about cults again.
- Reg. Katy, while the you\dram theory does have its merits, I now have an alternate theory as to who the mafia might be. I promise I'll share this in the night - do not want to cloud the thread with multiple theories at the same time. Think it is in town's interests to concentrate on cult right now.
- If you did not notice, I also shifted my theory to a day-recruit-cult since it made most sense with a Tar claim. Katy's behavior can be attributable to cult based on this.
- Mina, also

the lynchpin of my theory is that recruits lose worship votes.

Without that, none of the analysis makes sense. I also think all the worship votes tally with my theory. It is a good mechanic so that it does not fall into the "oh. cult could have recruited anyone today so its like random lynching" - If we miss hitting the cult leader today, we might have to structure our worship to be able to work recruits on the next day.
- Already gave this to Tar once but here's my meta:
Weeds Mafia (Scum loss)
Victorian Vampire (Scum win)
Star Wars Mafia (Scum win)
Tit for Tat Mafia (Town loss)
Greek Mythology Mafia (Town loss but for all purposes a win)
These are the relevant games since I took a two year break and I don't think my older games will map to my new one that much.

@Iece
- You forget that I have also played Lord of the rings: Ley of Leithian Mafia with you as scum so its just not a one-meta read.
-

ABR's census results are what they are. A hypnotist cult role adds a line saying "You are now part of the hyponotist cult" - the original wincon is still retained until a trigger occurs. Hence ABR's census is perfectly valid since recruit would have still shown up as town.

- Fate's soft-bussed you today - asking "shouldn't we eventually lynch Iece?" isn't the same as voting you and pushing for your lynch aggressively ..

@Alb,@Parama
Your last two posts just solidify my read on both of you

[ooba]

I think we are much better off trying to kill of the cult leader today. Please respond to
- All cult recruits lose worship votes theory
- Case on Iecerint

Dram's ability is too public for him to be cult. And dram is now powerless so he can be killed anytime. Still think there's a good chance for him to flip Mafia though but he's not the best play for today with a cult around.

My question is if Tar was worshipped stripped and claimed it - and you're assuming its a mafia ability - Why didn't the others? Where did the missing four votes go for N4 worship?

[ooba]

I am happy to vote off any sort of anti-town person, but I think mafia isn't as hard to narrow down or keep under control as cult right now. We have at least four mafia dead and reason to believe that there were only six total. We also have an unknown kill with a recognizable flavor, which must have come from scum, so that limits them in their choices.

They have to either kill with the same person and risk being outed

, kill with a different person and reveal the remaining kill flavor they have, or not kill, which works for me.

How does the same person making the kill increase risk of being outed in any way? It's like your setting up a reason as to why Mafia's killer would switch tonight ...

I am not so sold on the proposed mechanics, though. Mostly because I know for a fact I have had no worship vote since my role was assigned to me. And, the only way the "no worship" cult works is if you presume recruits don't show up on the census because I declared my no vote status on day two, once I realized it made no difference to ABR's power. If I am cult, I would have had to be the first cult recruited on night one, even thought the census indicated that no one had been recruited yet. Also, if you look back on my posts from day one, I made it pretty plain that I did not give one crap who I worshipped. I am Egyptian, but notice I did not state that I would worship Egypt, I said on the first day that I would worship whoever. That's because I already knew my vote did not count.

- First off you should read the bolded part about ABR's census in my post above.
- Day recruit cult - which I am assuming could have recruited D1 so other points irrelevant

---

I'm reposting the hypnotist role so that people can understand ABR's census in the right context.

Hypnotize

- Each day, you may target a player. If that player's race is Ancient and that player is not a High Councilor, you will hypnotize that player at the end of that day; that player will be informed that they were hypnotized but will not be told what this does. (A hypnotized player gains the Hypnotized ability "You count as a hypnotized player for the purposes of the Hypnotist win condition and Hypnotist abilities". A Hypnotized player retains their original win condition unless activated by your Coup D'Etat Ultimate.)

(For those curious the trigger here was exceeding the number of players on a high council - numbered six with the CL in it)

Hence the statement which many of you keep making that cult had only the leader on D2 start when ABR posted his census might be wrong.

---

Preview: Vas, my case on Iece is a page back. It should be mentioned here that Iece never mentioned cult before ABR did(CMAR, Mina, Parama, DS, Fate, Nikanor). However I like the current theory I have + reactions of those who I think are recruits .. I'd really like someone to rip it apart if they can ..

[ooba]

Fine , you want to move towards a lynch , lets lynch Iece.

@DTM: Drams vanilla now - he's lost his power ...

[ooba]

As far as the hypnotist goes, then that takes away a lot of the usefulness of ABR's power. It makes the most sense to me that the mod stuck that power in to give town some leverage against the cult. It just seems like a power that was directly meant to counteract something like a cult.

The census was there to tell people that a cult exists - which counteracts the cult. The worship mechanic is our leverage against the cult - it tells me exactly who was recruited ..

[ooba]

Since Iecerint hinted that there wasn't any mathematical reasoning:

Point 1:

Tar claimed he was worship stripped and "the flavor behind me losing my worship vote was very clearly that my soul was stolen.". He however does not mention any other details.
- Lets say this is a mafia power. First off, where are the other uses of this power. I mean why didn't people tell others that they were worship stripped on the previous days..
- This is clearly a hypnotist style recruitment. What tar hasn't told you is that he now has an alternate wincon other than the town one condition and can now win in two possible ways.

If its just soul-loss why haven't the others claimed yet .. Tar just claimed some bits so that he'll be believed ..

---

Point 2:

JCA was off by 5 votes on N4
a) Lets say it was Mafia-ites who were not voting so that I couldn't focus on them properly. But the only other 4 voter, Fate, knew I had a town read on him. So to not worship only puts suspicion on him.
b) Therefore, Fate was either worship blocked by mafia or my cult theory holds good.
- But if Fate was worship blocked, why didn't Mafia use this skill on all other nights? After all, there were no excess claims.
c) Hence, Fate was stripped off his worship vote and he did not declare it.

---

Point 3:

Which lead me to the other N4 missing 1 vote. The declared 1 vote missing people are:
Albatross + TNM + AD + Parama
- The fact that Albatross didn't vote on N2 : "Day 2 I didn't worship anyone as I didn't particularly care at that point" led me to him being the D2 recruit.

---

Point 4:

Change in reactions to Iece. Just read all the players and their change in reactions towards Iece around the time the worship mathematics point to them being recruited.

[ooba]

Fateeeeeeeeeeeee............ Sounds just like Snaaaaaaaaake!

Ok Fate - Although I like the (Iece=CL + Tar,Fate,Katy,Alb=Recruit) theory, since you asked politely and seem genuine enough - me looking for another explanation .. (Also because there's another small fact bothering me)

DTM: I got the possession\oversoul thingie on TNM's item .. Np spirit companion ...

[ooba]

No as in I'm seeing if I can find alternate cult recruits which also explain the JCA missing 5 votes ..

@Mod: Any possibility of a deadline extension?

They exist, however an extension beyond one week is unlikely. Please assume there will be no extension and plan accordingly. I will check on some things tomorrow when I get home.

[ooba]

Well the thing which bothered me was Tar's sudden reversal on dram (The Katy must have worship stripped me reasoning was weak)...

However, I could not find any other explanations\set of possibilities for my theory which either means I am right or I'm missing something .. Anyway the set of flips should help ..

I'm down with a dram lynch.. Probably Mafia with a slight chance of turning up cult as MO would put it ..

Unvote. Vote: dram

Preview: Fate, you do realize MO will die if we lynch VV (according to VV's claim) ...

[ooba]

@ ooba/Fate -- What do you make of DTM's claim that dram can't be mafia due to balance issues?

- Probably true but I am basing my read on how my other suspicions players react to a dram lynch (namely Parama and Mina)
- Plus Tar's sudden change

Maybe he couldn't protect the GF alone - farfetched speculation though ..

Katy did vote dram so they are not scum together. Mina\dram (with probably Parama) or Parama\Katy... The fact that both DS and Parama seem to want VV dead might point to inside info though

Preview: MO, what do you think of a Zombie flip?

[ooba]

Well, I thought his explanation that his shots were over and item wasn't dependant on PR made sense. I guess he doesn't really value QT talk with Tar anymore...

Anyway he's surely not the cult leader so he's a bad lynch .. I'd lynch someone who's got a chance to be cult .. DTM's chances of being CL: Zero ..

Preview: PZ, I mean you were saying we might be chasing shadows with cult. What do you think of LMP flipping zombie?

[ooba]

Ooba, presuming that the CL is someone who isn't me, who else makes the math work?

Math says nothing about the cult leader.

My theory is that cult recruits become worshipless. Says nothing about CL. I think its some mortal controlling zombies. If its a cult of Aethists, its Katy since she started out as a no worship person.

I'd be surprised if it is anybody other than {you, VV, Katy, Dram} though.

[ooba]

Oh Faraday too although his play has been protown and all I have is him finding LMP protown after D1 (but he did claim that was due to the vig)..

I found the reaction shift only for you but I didn't really go through it for the others cause I thought them shifting their thoughts on you was blatant ..

[ooba]

I think it's unlikely to be dram. Roles are typically built around themes, and Limbo is flavorful enough on its own. Unless Limbo *IS* the cult recruitment method (unlikely), it's impossible.

Katy belongs to a god group. Also, all the flips so far have flipped as their claimed role, though I suppose cult may be different. The atheist flavor works for *a* cult, but not the hypothetical one that Katy leads (unless CL is the only player with a fakeclaim, or there's something particular about SG's version of Anubis).

VV I could see as a non-town slot. Why does he make it onto your CL list specifically, though?

It's more process of elimination than anything else. But for VV he's been lurking and generally very non-committal.
2. Faraday
5. dramonic
14. VasudeVa (replaces Elscouta)
25. AdumbroDeus (Replaces CryMeARiver)
26. Iecerint
20. Katy

No I actually but your counterpoint against dram (in fact it was one of the things which I mentioned in my first who cannot be a CL post). But Tar moving away from dram on weak reasoning makes me think again - or maybe he did it because he wanted to vote Katy, the role cop.

Your Katy counterpoint is only valid if you believe Tar's spec that the CL is a mortal.

Hmm.. My Parama=Mafia read is only strengthened by this day's reactions. However, that must mean that he knows VV was not redirected by Mafia. Hence VV must have been targetting SB during the night. Let me read VV again ...

[ooba]

Ooba, if you're going to make assumptions based on other assumptions, the initial assumption needs to be correct first.

Probably. But you were never too clear on why VV ... And do you think he's most likely cult or mafia?

[ooba]

Um I was confirmed lyncher -> town. Why would I make up my PR? I was a two shot vig. I used up my powers. My PR are linked to my powers. Thus I don't need to PR anymore.

You don't find your QT important anymore?

Honestly, I am extremely unsure about Iecerint but I don't see anybody else supporting me on that lynch.
VV might be a good choice but its better he be asked to use his power on somebody scummy tonight and we lynch him tomorrow.
Don't want to lynch any of the claimed role cops ...

Dram is a good lynch - one which will happen I guess ...

[ooba]

VV target Iec tonight, double lynch tomorrow...

???

Profit?

Doesn't that argument hold true for VV targetting dram too?

[ooba]

Lets just lynch dram - look at the flips and talk it out in the night ... (Faraday I dont think we'll get traction from the others on that lynch)

[ooba]

Nik, here's my worship plan and reasons why I changed it:
- Given my theory that cult recruits might be worship stripped, I want to spread people across as much as possible
- Fate and Albatross get their own pantheon to check if either of them can worship
- VV gets a pantheon with a scummy person since he cannot hide behind a pro-town MO - if we want to lynch VV, we should have that choice open
- Splits all the four voters - I've tried and distributed 2 and 1's

JCA (10/27) = 37.0%

Mina - 2
Parama - 1
ooba - 4
Faraday - 2
AdumbroDeus - 1

Egyptian (5/27) = 18.52%

Albatross - 1
Fate - 4

Norse (6/27) = 22.22%

VV - 4
Iec - 2

GOO (6/27) = 22.22%

MO - 2
DTM - 2
TNM - 1
Nikanor - 1

Not Voting

Katy
Tar

You will worship as this list. I do not want anybody in the "network" changing this just because they thought it was a good idea to do so. If you have reasons, state them here. If you change your worship vote from this, it'll be assumed you are scum.

---

SB's mafia flip might be a janitor skill because
- still cannot believe that she declared the shot on SpyreX for no reason at all
- does not explain who made Tar lose his bulletproof on N1 (unless you think it was the claimed neutral or mafia had another one-shot kill)

SB=Mafia might explain the VV to SB redirect - although it was a bad redirect by mafia since SB was in no danger of being killed by Tar\DTM.

However, agree with Nikanor that if SB does flip Mafia again tomorrow - then I cannot think of any other reasons than Mafia being redirected to fellow mafia (aka Katy = Mafia)

[ooba]

Ooba,

I demand to be switched with you.

I don't remember what your shit does, but I'm not gonna risk becoming a reviver just because Albatross flaked like a fuck.

And that way I can focus Parama as well, my lil qt Buddy.

No, you and Albatross get a separate pantheon
- I don't think either of you can worship right now and I'd like to test that out
- And I keep my options open - all of Mina, AD and Parama cannot be scum - but if at least one of them are, it'll keep them from hitting me the next night. Albatross is not a mafia probable.

[ooba]

@ooba, I can think of a couple other reasons for Snow_Bunny to have been killed by an energy weapon last night if she flips mafia. I'll share them Day Six.

Telling me that I will worship that way or have it assumed I'm scum isn't a good way to get me to do it (it also doesn't help that it's early and I'm slightly grumpy today.) I don't particularly agree with your reasoning about VasudeVa but I'll get to that later. In any case you're not working with a full set of information (for which I'm certainly partially responsible.)

For now I'm off to teach but I'll have more later.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

- I suggested a plan - my point is not "worship MY way or get lynched", my point is "once this plan is debated and changes, if any are made, (or a totally new plan is suggested by someone and accepted) people should stick to it or get lynched"
- Did you roleblock (or) jailkeep Fate from taking any actions (like worship) on N4?

[ooba]

The only problem I can see is that, given that worship-loss works the way we think it does, Cult can probably recruit to give themselves the preferential abilities and/or cancel Niki very easily. I'd like the plan more if Niki had more of a safety net, at least.

I do like the idea of having all 4 worship conditions be used, because that will make who is hiding inability to worship maximally clear.

Well given that I think Fate\Alb worship will fail and we'll effectively have 22 votes, that gives a 1 buffer to Nik. I thought of shifting 1 more to GOO but JCA needs a buffer too ..

[ooba]

JCA (10/27) = 37.0%

Mina - 2
Parama - 1
ooba - 4
Faraday - 2
AdumbroDeus - 1

Egyptian (5/27) = 18.52%

Albatross - 1
Fate - 4

Norse (6/27) = 22.22%

VV - 4
Iec - 2

GOO (6/27) = 22.22%

MO - 2
DTM - 2
TNM - 1
Nikanor - 1

Not Voting

Katy
Tar

Egyptian ..
- Fate, this also invalidates your concerns that Albatross will flake ..

[ooba]

K now my NEW concern is that Albatross doesn't have a worship vote and my powers will leave me exposed.

WHY THE FUCK DO YOU WANT THE DAY VIG TO NOT HAVE HIS REVIVE OOBA.

HUH?
HMM!?????

How about YOU get your ass with a seperate pantheon because YOU dont have a worship vote.

I'm sending in my worship and Focus on Parama.

Deal.

Anybody with half a brain this game will know who the day vig is .. And its not you..
And if I'm the one with no worship vote, I'm sure JCA votes tomorrow will show that ...

[ooba]

Double lynch via my ability plan sounds bad. I doubt that the dude I'm getting lynched with will worship with me no matter what his alignment is. .

Well, I'd rather you have a scummy player in your lynch+ ability rather than anybody else. I don't want to see yet another "Hey but do you really want MO to die?" kinda posts. If we want you to be lynched, you should be lynched with no negative consequences.

[ooba]

Well Ooba I already sent in my JCA worship vote, so either play ball or your "master plan" is shot.

We'll see how easy is to lynch based off "HE DIDN DO WUT I SAIDZZZ"

You can change your worship vote anytime before deadline hits. If you had your worship vote and it counted, I don't see why you wouldn't stick to the plan if you're town.

[ooba]

I DONT WANT TO TARGET THAT CRAZY MOTHER (((((((((((((

Hey I was thinking abou that though. THat we we lynch him, I get revived ??? two confirmedz for price of one!?

I don't mind this plan.

OOBA STRIKE UP A NEW FUCKIN PLAN

Given a choice, I'd rather lynch VV-Iece than single lynch VV and let you revive. All this exercise will do is prove you're a revivor - doesn't reflect on alignment in any way. You can continue voting whoever you want and VV can focus on Iece ..

[ooba]

Revivor Mafia/Reviver cult is bad on balance though. I like this plan. Fate, what did you worship?

The first part of the sentence indicates that you think Fate is town. Yet you want to follow through on a plan which will make Fate vanilla if you are lynched?

[ooba]

If everything goes according to plan, JCA will still win the worship
- TNM
- DTM
I do not want you changing your votes because your reasoning does not make sense. (If JCA is going to win and we have a two vote buffer, I dont see why you have to switch. In fact, you switching and somebody getting worship stripped would only lead to loss of analysis info)

[ooba]

Hello, three things:

a) SB actually flipped Mafia. MO, you said you might have other theories as to why SB mafia would get killed? (Other than Katy mafia who was redirected to another mafia.)
b)

HOLD IT WITH THE LOTTERY CHOICES

- if we limit it to few people guessing - we can make sure only they get the item - makes sense for the item to go to people we think are town ....
c) Claim yar worship votes ... Worship analysis coming up ..

[ooba]

JCA

Mina - 2
Parama - 1 -> Claimed
ooba - 4 -> Claimed
Faraday - 2
AdumbroDeus - 1 -> Killed due to inactivity
Nikanor - 1 -> Claimed (Deviation from the plan)

Actual: 11

Egyptian

Albatross - 1
Fate - 4

Actual: 5

Norse

VV - 4
Iec - 2 -> Claimed

Actual: 2

GOO

MO - 2 -> Claimed
DTM - 2 -> Claimed
TNM - 1

Actual: 8

Why in gods name did ya vote JCA Nik?

I'll do a worship analysis once everyone has claimed ... Plus other analysis too - Don't bring anyone close to a lynch .. Please don't dayvig anyone until I've given you my opinions ..

[ooba]

Nobody lost worship - but people apparently cannot stick to a plan ...
This is what I expect happened yesterday but I'd like people to confirm worship votes nonetheless ...

JCA

Mina - 2
Parama - 1 -> Claimed
ooba - 4 -> Claimed
Faraday - 2
AdumbroDeus - 0 -> Killed due to inactivity -> Did not vote
Nikanor - 1 -> Claimed (Deviation from the plan)
TNM - 1

Actual: 11

Egyptian

Albatross - 1
Fate - 4

Actual: 5

Norse

Iec - 2 -> Claimed

Actual: 2

GOO

MO - 2 -> Claimed
DTM - 2 -> Claimed
VV - 4

Actual: 8

[ooba]

Zombie Big Daddy

Bioshock moment. *shivers*

Parama: It would help if you knew what a Lich was in Xylbot terms.
Basically, I think what we have on our hands is a modified Lich. My guess is that there is only one cult member at a time, but that cult member recruits people after his own death. I think that whoever Tar targeted is going to turn into a Zombie today after Tar's death. If we were to kill Tar's target before we kill Tar, then Tar's target wouldn't be recruited.
That's why I suggested killing Iec.

If its a lich cult and Tar is the current lich, he would hardly claim in a QT beforehand about who his eventualy target is going to be.
Unless we have a track on him (which I don't think we do) - this argument doesn't make sense.
And MO, Faraday, you, me are much better survivor targets than Iece ever will be.

Parama: Why don't you think Iece cannot be the cult leader?

Nik: Did you target me for a QT yesterday?

[ooba]

Since nobody is following the "Lets lay off the lottery and allow only few people to guess" strategy..

Lottery: Mask

---

MO, first I'd like to know that
- There are no lies in 3473. I do not want to spend time on a game only to realize that I've wasted time and for you to tell me "You are acting
- Where did all the extra abilities come from - Mina's day vig, Faraday's track?
- On Day 5 - "I don't particularly agree with your reasoning about VasudeVa but I'll get to that later. In any case you're not working with a full set of information (for which I'm certainly partially responsible.)" - I already knew about a track on VV -> MO since Tar had claimed it. Which other info would change my reasoning about VV?

SB=Mafia might explain the VV to SB redirect - although it was a bad redirect by mafia since SB was in no danger of being killed by Tar\DTM.

[ooba]

ebwop: "You are acting without a full of information"

[ooba]

It should be obvious by now that I deviated from the plan. Worshipped Orbots, Focused GoO. I'm sticking to my 'get me and one awesome dude to endgame.' plan, for now.

And why didnt you focus Fate - you yourself said it was a good plan ..

[ooba]

@ooba, focusing on Fate wasn't a particularly good plan despite what people said about it and Fate wasn't going to be focusing on VasudeVa anyhow which, if memory serves was supposed to be part of that. I think that VasudeVa's choice made more sense than your plan would have.

I asked him to focus on Iece - my opinion was that if we needed to lynch him - we should be able to (and get rid of a scummy Iece too). He decided that wasn't good enough and
- contemplated focusing Fate since VV's lynch would ability confirm Fate.
But he didn't do that too since he knew town might lynch him.

Basically he's been playing on survival mode ever since he replaced in. No real opinions - just lurking around in the background ...

Vote: VV

I still don't see how it was a great play for them to redirect VV->SB - it boils down to whether we think SB would have been lynched if she had shot town. I don't think SB would have been lynched for shooting any of TNM, CMAR, Fate (Other people on her list).

---

Now that Plum is back in the game as Sobriquet we've even got a confirmed non-town to send redirects to. We should be in pretty good shape at this point.

Worst case scenario - if we are looking at a day Hypnotist cult - we could have 3 recruits + a leader more (I'm excluding Tar, Xite from this) - so I would rather be cautious than not.

---

Fate, I'll apologize when I know you're not cult for sure

---

Nik, I ask you again - did you target me for a QT yesterday?

---

I like the Lich theory - but its too perfect - consider the following things:
- Tar might have been recruited before - I still find the entire him claiming "Hey I was worship stripped" staged
-- If his wincon changed to cult, he was playing against his wincon when he said that

- In which case the entire claiming part might have been an elaborate set up for the "Cult = Lich cult" theory. Nik, did you come up with the Lich cult idea on your own or was it discussed in any of the QTs ?

---

Katy Mafia can wait because her skills as a rolecop are invaluable here.

[ooba]

@ooba, a mafia redirect of a town VasudeVa (or even a cult VasudeVa telling the truth about his ability) to Snow_Bunny would protect one of the mafia's sources of night kills from anything but a lynch for the following day night cycle no matter what else happened in the game and take down a non-mafia member if she did get lynched for whatever reason the next day.

Other than redirecting a kill I don't know what would have made better use of it

and if they were worried about watchers they could have been leery of going with that choice whereas VasudeVa was pretty unlikely to be watched. I don't know what the mafia's actual thought process was but that seems like a pretty good use of a redirect to me given the information that was public at the time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

This. The DTM kill being redirected was the best use of the skill.

Plus, you've forgotten one fact - there was probably some amount of truth in what DS claimed about Mafia being immune to cult recruitment. Therefore SB not flipping cult makes sense because of that.
- Town shouldn't really care about dying if it helps the cause. VV is scummy - just ISO him.
- You might say he used his skill in a good way but his clear jumping from Iece - lets focus on Fate - finally settling on you indicates a clear aversion to being lynched.

Anyway I'd like VV to respond before you respond for him... You've been far too soft on him from the start.

---

Your theory that its a lich cult has holes too, namely
- Why did tar claim to be worship stripped?
- If he realizes he's lich - why would he ever claim his successor?
Unless of course your theory is that he retains town wincon while being lich so why didnt LMP claim on day one then?

[ooba]

@ooba, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the cult now that Tarhalindur has spoken up.

- Dayvigging anybody but Tar would be a mistake
- I would discount anything else he has to say - To me, I view it as a sacrifice to set up lynches (I really don't buy any player not playing to a wincondition esp. Tar)