Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)

[Mina]

Oh no! I feel so threatened!
inb4someseriousshittyassplayercomesinandruinsallthefun

You rang?

Vote: CryMeARiver

Question to DTMaster and Ortolan: do you know why were you both added to the game? Were you recruited by a specific faction?

[Mina]

Oh shit, CMAR's got me! I thought I was so smooth, coming in and being serious. Wait, if I recruit you into my cult of Mafia Strongman doctors, do you promise not to tell everyone?

Hey, Iecerint! (Grr, I'm

still

bitter about that Fables Mafia game. *sticks tongue out*)

And hey, Saint Kerrigan, who've I've played with for about ten minutes.

Wait, at the risk of sounding like an idiot, I don't get it. Is something wrong with the last vote count? It looks fine to me. I'm voting for CMAR.

[Mina]

Okay, wait a minute. What voting weirdness are people talking about?

Post 11: Orbots votes Tar.
Post 12: Parama votes DTMaster.
Post 13: Nikanor votes DTMaster.
Post 15: Iecerint votes dramonic.
Post 16: Elscouta votes DTMaster.
Post 17: CMAR votes Nikanor.
Post 21: Mina votes CMAR.

The vote count I see:

5. dramonic (0) - Iecerint
17. Nikanor (0) - CryMeARiver
21. Tarhalindur (0) - Mighty Orbots
25. CryMeARiver (0) - Mina
28. DTMaster (0) - Parama, Nikator, Elscouta

I don't see any votes falling for the wrong person.

[Mina]

EBWOP: Never mind, Saint Kerrigan and Nikanor explained it.

[Mina]

I keep on getting cross-posted.

Let's try this:

Vote: Kairyuu

[/red]

[Mina]

Let's try this

again

.

Vote: Kairyuu

[/red]

(This is a vote for CMAR.)

[Mina]

I give up. This is a sign from the gods that

I fail BBCode forever

my random vote is destined to sit on Ortolan.

[Mina]

This is my first Large Game on this site, so I'm not quite sure what to expect for scum size. Maybe 7-8 (25% of 28)? Why do you ask, ABR? What useful information do you think that would give you?

I have a few theories about the set-up, but I'm worried they'll lead to rolefishing. The only thing I'll say is that if someone has a great reason for why we should worship a certain faction (and it won't give away his role), he or she should come forward. (Right now, I'd guess that it wouldn't be such a great idea to worship the Old Ones.)

PokerFace, check the numbers in brackets beside each player's names. The

names

aren't moved, but the vote count is.

Hey Mina, preview is your friend.

Yeah, but this site takes so long to load that by the time I preview, three people have already cross-posted with me.

[Mina]

Question to DTMaster and Ortolan: do you know why were you both added to the game? Were you recruited by a specific faction?

I have a few theories about the set-up, but I'm worried they'll lead to rolefishing.

I thought a bit before asking that first question, but I decided that knowing whether DTMaster and Ortolan were recruited by specific players (they don't even have to reveal who) or factions or were just randomly assigned to the game tells us nothing about their role and potentially useful information about their alignment. I can definitely see the Mafia having the option of recruiting from the replacements list. And how they react to my question would allow us to read them better, too.

Talking too much about the role of gods in this set-up in general, on the other hand, can definitely give away which players are certain characters or factions, either because they'll betray too much or too little information.

[Mina]

Eek. This game is going WAAAAAAY too fast. This thread grew about two pages while I was writing this. To make matters worse, every time I try to preview or flip back a page, the site takes a minute to load. My natural rhythm is one wallpost of doom per day, so apologies in advance if I don't keep up.

I don't get why people doubt that DTM has a post restriction (regardless of his alignment), but DTM, could you please tone it down a little? Right now, I'm skimming over your posts because they're tl;dr and full of fluff and insults. It's hard to get a read on you.

Nikanor, do you suspect me, or are you just voting for me because of SpyreX's "secret information" comment?

I started ISO-ing everyone, but I'll save it for another post for readability and because at least fifteen other people will post before I finish it. First I'll just answer SpyreX's case.

In all fairness, there was a bit of cognitive dissonance going on in that post. I'd starting writing an over-eager paragraph about my set-up theories, but then I realized that it would give away whether I was a man or god. Cue hasty deleting and awkward, cryptic comments about not role-fishing. That was me trying to be discreet and be careful with my wording.

But I think you're nitpicking with the following:

"Who brought you in?"
"Don't rolefish!"

I never asked

who

(as in, which specific players) brought them in. How is it rolefishing to ask

if

they were recruited? In hindsight, I'll admit it probably wouldn't have accomplished much, but there was nothing else worth questioning at the time.

(You know what? I know I'm going to be accused of rolefishing for this, but I'd just like to compare ortolan's and DTM's reactions to my question:

I don't think this should be discussed, certainly at this point in time.

I was told that I was to replace in ASAP, since I was a person on the replacement list. Then I got my role PM. And yes someone recruited me to join this game. Rawr!

Something does not fit.)

"Worshipping the Old Gods is bad!"
"Don't talk too much about the worship mechanic"

I asked people if they knew, because I thought that was useful information. Revealing that I'm not an Old One, on the other hand, doesn't say anything interesting (because I could be a Norse, Egyptian, Judeo-Christian, or mortal).

"What information could you get about asking how many scum there are?"
"I think scum can recruit from the replacement pool"

I don't get this one. The starting balance would be adjusted for recruitments from the replacement pool. What does this have to do with people's guesses on the number of scum?

Speaking of which...ABR, what happened to that question about the number of scum? You claimed you had a plan on what to do with that information, but you seem to have abandoned it in favour of your worship-claiming. (My read on ABR is town, but that one detail niggles at me. This master plan could be hot air.)

Additionally, there is already some SECRET INFORMATION to be pulled if Mina is scum. Secret, delicious information.

Do you mean that Ortolan and DTMaster would be confirmed town (although Iec seems to have read it the opposite way)?

[Mina]

Nikanor, do you suspect me, or are you just voting for me because of SpyreX's "secret information" comment?

It's the secret information that catches my fancy. The case against you isn't too bad either, at least not for this stage of the game, but my main reason for voting you is the super secret tidbit that SpyreX is dangling in front of me.

I'll admit I'm prone to OMGUS, but I don't like this response. You're not committing. Either flat-out say you suspect me or don't jump on the bandwagon. Don't use "Oh, but that damn SpyreX made me do it by teasing me with extra information!" as an excuse. Particularly since he said nothing about having

role-related

information. It sounds like you're covering your ass.

I've just ISO'd you, and I noticed you haven't done all that much so far. I mean, neither have I, yet, but your contributions after RVS jokes boil down to linking to a scummy post (admittedly, SK's post was pretty bad), getting petulant over a minor theory that DTM tossed out pages ago (seriously...was that the only time anyone mentioned you negatively all game? Why the hell were you trying to defend yourself from a theory that had already been proven wrong after SpyreX's claim?), and vote me when you don't seem all that confident in the case on me.

What do you think of, say, Iecerint? Ooba? Ortolan?

[Mina]

The game just began and there's six pages already!? Geez, guys, give me a break.

Nothing in those six pages stood out to you? Since then, have you noticed anything else that was noteworthy? (Some people warned us that they'd be away, but you didn't.)

@SaintKerrigan and Elscouta: when you get back, I'd like to hear some suspects from you both. Most of your posts have been about the set-up. It's giving me trouble reading you.

I'm not sure I care for Mina's blatant role speculation and then sudden backpedal of "Well, I don't want to be accused of rolefishing". Her later defenses don't really address the questions posed to her.

Starbuck, which questions in particular do you think I haven't answered satisfactorily? Also, which of my posts did you think were either too much role speculation or not enough?

(I really don't think your reasons are fair. I never said anything about not wanting to be accused of rolefishing at the time. I thought it was perfectly safe to discuss if the replacements were recruited but potentially dangerous to talk too much about the role of the gods in this game. It's not as if I have to be either totally open about role/set-up speculation or totally silent. Why can't there be a middle ground? I'm more sympathetic to SpyreX's "cognitive dissonance" accusations.)

That's actually exactly why I voted for you, though.

So are you saying it wasn't a serious vote? You aren't pushing this to a lynch?

They're stand-up guys! I love 'em to death.
How many posts does ortolan have? Two? Same with Ooba. The thread hasn't been open a day yet. Give it some time, and I'll give you some of my reads.
You can't rush art.

That only means it will take you less time to read them.

All right, I'll be more specific. What do you think of Ortolan's jump onto the Fate wagon?

~~~~~
I started trying to write a list of my impressions, but there isn't enough to go on. Although there are players on whom I'm leaning town, most people haven't contributed enough for me to tell if they're scummy or just busy. Right now, of the very active players, I feel worst about Fate and Iecerint. In a nutshell, although some of the players wagoning him look a bit shady, I think Fate is acting erratically and pushing weak arguments--I've seen him play as town in PYPIII, and he wasn't this OTT. I've played a game with Iecerint-scum, and he did a great job of looking active and protown, but was a bit overly technical and cautious about joining bandwagons. I'm getting the same impression here. I'll give quotes with examples in a bit.

Still, I dislike lower-profile players like ortolan, Chronopie, ooba and Parama more. I haven't decided who deserves my vote more than CMAR (since Kinetic counted my badly formatted vote).

I'm starting to feel better about DTM. I thought he blew things out of proportion in his back-and-forth with Mighty Orbots, but he shows signs of trying to probe for people's motivations--for example, pushing Faraday to explain his reads. I'm leaning more "stirring-shit-up-to-get-reactions" than "stirring-shit-up-to-distract-people" on him...although this might change if he doesn't keep making half of his posts insults.

[Mina]

I have to go to work, but just a few questions.

@manho: Before I give my reasons for suspecting Iecerint, I'd like to hear yours, when you have the chance. Suspecting Iec is kind of the done thing now.

@Mighty Orbots: why do you think that DTMaster might be faking his posting restriction? (Upon reading closely, I think his attack on you for not voting SK was a blatant misrep--maybe I take back the "leaning town"--but you seem to have pulled this out of nowhere.)

@Fate: an example of something that bugged me about you on my reread:

SEE HE'S DOING IT AGAIN. HAVEN'T WE TAUGHT YOU ABOUT ROLE SPECULATION YET? ROLEFISHING IS NO LONGER A VALID SCUMTELL THANKS TO FUCKTARDS LIKE YOU WHO DO IT FOR SCUM. OR MAYBE YOU IZ SCUM WHO COMMIT OLD TELLS CUZ U DUM?

How the hell is DTMaster rolefishing by pointing out

that you claimed scum

? It's like you're doing it on purpose just to be contrary. You and DTM seem to have similar playstyles this game.

Also, what do you think about Nikanor's response to DTM's theory? Do you think it was scummy or neutral?

@ooba: why

not

ortolan?

If you're asking why I asked Nikanor about him, then it's a follow-up to my list of three players. When he said there was nothing they'd done worth commenting on, I decided to narrow it down to a specific event that I found mildly interesting to press him further.

If you're asking why I suspect ortolan in general...again, why

not

ortolan? He's one of a pool of low posters who've only posted once or twice with safe filler (a category you belong to as well). To top it off, there's the conflict between his response to my "role-fishing" and DTM's--if the secret information was that he was recruited, then I don't see the reason for coyness. It also occurred to me that both the Mafia and Town might get a recruit, so the replacements could be 1 town v. 1 Mafia. Might as well start somewhere.

[Mina]

Lots to catch up on. I'll post a bunch of scattershot comments now, but I'll save more for when I get home.

I got town-vibes from Elscouta because of her Orbots case, but I'm not comfortable with a MO lynch today. Call it gut.

To be honest, I've been delaying my vote because I feel as though whoever I choose is almost random; there are so many scummy lurkers that I can't make up my mind between them. CMAR himself isn't such a terrible choice, either. Seriously, I've rewritten the following paragraph several times. I'm not used to games this size.

What the hell:

Unvote

Vote: CryMeARiver

(ortolan).

Might as well make my love official. He might not be the ONLY scummy lurker, but he's

my

scummy lurker. And why not start a wagon?

CMAR, DarkStalker, raj, Starbuck,

Snow_Bunny

(ETA: never mind, she's back), and probably a few more I'm forgetting need to get back here instantly and start posting actual suspects. (I liked what little we've seen of Plum and Percy, but I don't like their silence.) Not sure what to make of Parama any more--she's playing like an utterly useless but careless VI, which makes it hard for me to read her. I think manho's posts are objectively scummy, but his posts come across as genuinely lost and overwhelmed. I don't get that seedy...um, "cognitive dissonance" feeling I get from reading ortolan's or ooba's (more on him later) contributions.

Also, I have a problem. I suspect all the people who are voting for me except SpyreX (Nikanor, Starbuck, and dramonic). This can't be a good sign. In a twenty-eight player game, three scum in a row wouldn't just jump on my wagon. Someone tell me if this is just OMGUS and Nik, Starbuck, and dramonic are really obvtown.

@Starbuck: When you get back, I'm waiting for an answer to my questions.

@dramonic: why did you vote for me, considering you didn't mention me in your one post of impressions?

@ABR: But Iecerint never actually

claimed

Norse God. Now that your case has been invalidated, do you have any new suspects? You're starting to lose the goodwill you won for your worship-claiming plan and on move onto my suspect list.

(More on Iecerint later--he's a player who needs to be tackled with a big post.)

[Mina]

EBWOP: Add Chronopie to the list of scummy low-fliers.

Next up, responses to questions asked to me. I'm posting this separately to minimize walls. First up: Nikanor, DTMaster, and Fate. I have to go home now, so I'll do ooba and Iecerint later tonight or tomorrow.

I-Nikanor

No, it's serious. I want you lynched.

So let me get this straight.

You claimed the main reason you voted for me is because SpyreX said my flip might give us information on other players (even though you've ignored all our speculation on what that secret information might be). You stuck to this even after I accused you of using it to cover your ass and distance yourself from the vote. But now you're serious about getting me lynched for no reason other than because SpyreX said he had a theory.

I'm sorry, but that's a terrible reason. I'd have felt better if you'd said there wasn't anything better to go on at the time...or, you know, actually showed signs of reading my posts and finding them scummy instead of making excuses for your vote.

Also, why Parama, and why should we wait until Day Four to lynch her? You've been pretty short on suspects this game.

Mina, I really don't get why you want me to comment on ortolan. You're vote's not even on him, is it?

Why

not

comment on ortolan? I don't have anything concrete on him, but he's piqued my curiosity. You were reluctant to say anything when I asked you about three players, so I decided to make your job easier. Why not explain why you don't like him?

(I considered voting for ortolan, but at the time, it didn't feel right for me to cast a vote when I didn't have a good enough read on most of the players in the game to make an informed decision.)
-----------------------------------------

II-DTMaster

@Mina
1.

@Mighty Orbots: why do you think that DTMaster might be faking his posting restriction? (Upon reading closely, I think his attack on you for not voting SK was a blatant misrep--maybe I take back the "leaning town"--but you seem to have pulled this out of nowhere.)

Whoa, if you agree with him, obviously that train of logic doesn't follow with: "but you seem to pull this out of nowhere". You're either criticizing me, MO, or both of us and going the middle ground.

This post reads as insane buddying.

Um...except I said he pulled his fake PR accusation out of nowhere, not ALL of his arguments. It's hard to parse the quote wars between you two, but I definitely think your accusing Orbots of being inconsistent for voting the player he said he suspected (raj) instead of someone he said would probably vote for him (SK) was craplogic. I just think his fake PR accusation was weird and unsubstantiated.

*sigh* You are just about impossible to read. It's like, one post I'm nodding my head in agreement with you, and another post I'm totally baffled.

This is a bad assumption. If you flip town, doesn't mean either Ortolan or DTM are town. If you flip scum, though, it's more likely that DTM and/or Ortolan are scum.

Actually, I think it's the opposite. IF I FLIP SCUM, that makes DTM and ortolan town--because that means I was trying to fish for their roles/who recruited them. (Not sure what Iec's theory on why they'd be scum is--scum wouldn't lampshade the fact that the replacements are Mafia recruits...unless it was all elaborate WIFOM.) I maintain that scum gain nothing by fishing for the replacements' factions when they already know their alignments, though.
------------------------------------------

III-Fate

Who the hell are you?
What is OTT?
What the hell are you meta'ing me?
I had a guilty result D1 2 and 3 of that game, so yeah, I was a little more on point.
Why the hell are you trying to meta me?

OTT = over the top. I've been wrong about meta reads before, but let me put it this way. I

read

a game that you played in (PYP III, because it was a scummy-nominated game and I was curious). While i followed that game, I thought you were obvtown. At the beginning of this game, you didn't look obvtown at all (your recent posts have been better, although you still never explained your DTM comment, dammit!). Therefore, that worries me. Please don't play the "You know nothing at all because you're not a big name on this site" card. It gets on my nerves.

Fate: why would you feel uncomfortable on the MO wagon if you say you're a fan of it?

[Mina]

Sorry to spam the thread, but @Faraday on the ortolan case: Basically, ortolan doesn't do much in that one post beyond make safe comments on the set-up and follow the crowd on Fate. It's the kind of post that scum make to blend in and go with the flow. And unlike certain players who shall remain unnamed, his lack of content doesn't seem to be caused by a lack of brain activity.

Not certain of his alignment yet--the replacements thing drew my attention to him, but I don't think it's damning evidence in itself--but I don't think a few votes would hurt.

I have my thoughts on Fate's "cognitive dissonance" catch, but I'd rather hear ortolan himself answer it, first.

[Mina]

Okay...this is AWESOME.

Seriously, even I thought choosing ortolan to bug Nikanor about was kind of arbitrary. Who'd have thought I'd throw a dart in the dark and hit scum?

Fate explained why ort's last post was horrible, so no sense repeating it. Seriously, your only thoughts are that a throwaway line of set-up speculation is interesting? No defence against the cognitive dissonance or misrepping raj accusations beyond insulting us? Are you

trying

to get yourself lynched?

@Parama: please stop being so scummy when you're voting for my suspect. It makes me nervous.

@Plum: you thought of the words "cognitive dissonance" by yourself to explain ort's scumtell, without seeing Fate's post?

@Fate: sorry for misreading your post. Whether you were blasting Chrono or DTM doesn't change that the quote you mentioned in that post...but meh. I don't particularly suspect you now, so it's irrelevant. (I thought you meant only people who knew you well could meta you...but yeah, your sig.)

@ABR: I don't care if you're not getting lynched today. I care if you give us suspects.

@Nikanor: could I get a teensy bit of response to you for the points I made against you? Considering I addressed you by name in size eighteen font up above, it was kind of hard to miss.

@dramonic: see what I asked you up above. Why is your vote on me, and who else do you suspect?

@DTM: Do you realize that J-scope and Faraday are the same person? When reading their posts together, does that put J-scope's Iecerint posts in context, or is your opinion the same?

I will admit that my original ort case wasn't a smoking gun. His vote on Fate alone wasn't the problem--it's just the whole package. His point on raj was one several people had already mentioned, IIRC, and accused raj of making. (Admittedly, I'd like to see something from raj that isn't an overreactive defence. I need to reread those pages to see who might have been opportunistic there.) I thought it was as good a place as any to apply pressure. Chronopie is also scummy, but in that unreadable-ball-of-goo way of VIs.

I actually don't have a problem with SK--his last big post seemed well thought-out. There isn't really enough for me to make up my mind yet on him, though.

More to come later.

[Mina]

EBWOP: whoops, for some reason, I thought Parama's vote was on ortolan.

Also, I posted before finishing a couple of my sentences. I meant that ortolan accused raj of being "illogical" and "opportunistic" for voting Plum because of a self-vote ("because Plum implied a self-vote would be helpful"--where did she do that?)--totally missing the point (as raj did) that Plum's self-vote wasn't even a real self-vote. Need to check if Plum's assessment of ort is accurate and reread that whole exchange afterward.

[Mina]

Uh...DTM?

Oh yeah last night I recieved a note when I came in. There is a mafia faction, and I highly think it's a single mafia faction and it has a Godfather. Yes I'm claiming role related information nao in Alice in Wonderland Style.

You know what, the argument between Nikanor and Parama is funny. Makes me think that they're different god factions rather then scum hunting. The whole 3rd party is a fucking weird argument to be tossed around between them :<.

Something doesn't compute.

[Mina]

1. I was waiting for DTM to answer my "catch" before saying this, but fuck it. Sorry, MO, but I think DTMaster is town. It's how he tries to probe for motivations and look behind the surface.

MO, who are your other suspects? To be honest, I think you're getting a little fixated on DTM's post restriction, which I find kind of irrelevant.

2.

@Kinetic:

I'm going to a wedding this weekend, so I'll be

V/LA until Monday

. Unfortunately, I don't have much time today. To-do list for Monday: answer ooba's questions, reread Iecerint and show the quotes that I like and dislike from him (I can't for the life of me make up my mind on Iec), react to SK's and Snow_Bunny's most recent posts, and scream at all the people who STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS. But right now I'm becoming a distraction, so first things first...

3. Okay, I really didn't want to do an exhaustive point-by-point defence, because it's not my style. Rereading my own posts, I can see that my point on worshipping was kind of awkward. But I will be honest. The role-fishing accusations are starting to get really, REALLY annoying. So I'll try to nip this in the bud before I go on my V/LA.

------

Again, I will explain my thought process in those posts.

1) Before the game, I was curious about the replacements. Were they recruited by the town or Mafia, or just randomly selected? I figured it was worth questioning them to see how they reacted:

Question to DTMaster and ortolan: do you know why were you both added to the game? Were you recruited by a specific faction?

(And to those who said I should have given my theories on the replacements at the time: um...that kind of takes away THE ENTIRE TRAP!) Was it a brilliant question? Did I expect it to catch scum? Probably not, but it was

page one

. I decided the question couldn't hurt, because at worst, ortolan and DTM could've said, "No comment." No one has explained why Scum!Mina would draw needless attention to herself by asking the replacements something that doesn't tell her much.

2) When ABR asked about the number of scum, I started a post along the lines of "That's irrelevant, but what I'm really curious about is_____." (If people need to be swayed, I will share the theories I had; it gives away something minor about my role, but I don't think you'd need to be a genius to have worked it out anyway.) Then I caught my slip, and realized it might start a chain reaction of people accidentally giving the same information if they responded to my theory:

I have a few theories about the set-up, but I'm worried they'll lead to rolefishing.

3) Meanwhile, I thought asking about worship votes was safe and protown, just to make sure we didn't all accidentally worship the Mafia:

The only thing I'll say is that if someone has a great reason for why we should worship a certain faction (and it won't give away his role), he or she should come forward. (Right now, I'd guess that it wouldn't be such a great idea to worship the Old Ones.)

Note the "and it won't give away his role" part. I figured those who knew the information could decide how much to reveal at their own discretion. The Old Ones thing was pretty much just speculation.

If someone has any questions for me (or questions they'd like to see me answer that I've missed), ask them and I'll get back to them after my V/LA. I'll save my response to Starbuck for another post.

------

SpyreX. You are starting to drive me crazy. For page 8, your case was decent, especially since I hadn't contributed yet. But please stop repeating the words "COGNITIVE DISSONANCE" over and over again and acting like you've discovered a smoking gun. Townies don't have a list of principles on set-up speculation and information-sharing to which they're 100% consistent all the time.

Because you're not engaging with me. You're not trying to get me to explain my thought process so you'll know just where the "cognitive dissonance" came from, or refute the arguments I've made in my defence. You've ignored DTM's point that post 355 was a towntell and just focused on the lynching-for-information part. "Bad vibes" doesn't cut it--particularly since no one else is getting the same vibes about my overall play post-"rolefishing." You're not hammering me to death with new evidence and questions, the way I do when I'm tunnel-visioned as town. You're doing something I do sometimes as scum--ignoring townish things that the subject of your case has done just so you don't have to abandon your sparkly shiny case and write a new one. Except, of course, I've thought you aren't scum.

Also, your suspect list is completely schizophrenic (you suspect me AND ortolan? Did you once explain why you suspect Iec?). I'd like some explanation for your other reads.

[Mina]

*sigh* I will try to stay polite.

You did explain the cognitive dissonance. I'll admit that your overconfidence rubbed me the wrong way at the time, but I acknowledged that I thought your case had good points.

My problem is that since then, you haven't reacted to new information.

Again, you are not engaging with me. This is the first time you've addressed a post in my direction. You've been in persuasion mode instead of alignment-fishing mode all day when it comes to me. I'm sorry, but it's starting to get frustrating--particularly since, to be honest, I'm not used to being wagoned Day One as town. Like everyone else in this game, I thought you were town since your role reveal, but your behaviour since you came back from the anaesthetics is not making sense to me now.

Please explain where the bad vibes come from, for example. You took a lot of care explaining the dissonance, but when I answer your accusations and start scumhunting, you dismiss it all with "bad vibes."

Or, you know, answer my defence up there. Find stuff wrong with it. Reevaluate depending on whether you buy my explanation for the "dissonance." Do you think I'm scummier now? Not as scummy?

Or hey, do you not find ANYTHING scummy about manho's hop on the wagon above? Nothing at all? You think me being only intermittently cautious about role speculation was somehow worse than that?

On a reread, you did mention Iec before. Correct me on the wrong--do you suspect Iec because he bolded "Norse Gods," or did I miss something? (I skimmed a bit.)

[Mina]

Sorry for posting, DarkStalker. But these will be my last two posts before my V/LA. Two for readability: one for SpyreX, one responding to Starbuck and manho from before.

No, Starbuck, it

won't

be a fun couple of pages, because I need to go out and buy a dress before all the stores close. I don't have time to get into a huge back and forth. Now why don't you do something constructive now, like read all those wall posts you never read instead of trying to stir shit up?

SpyreX, in case you don't refuse to answer, is your point on Iec the same as ABR's--that you don't like how he was pushing for the Norse gods instead of waiting for the plan? I've read all your posts. That's the only reasons you ever gave for suspecting Iec. Correct me if I'm wrong with

actual quotes

.

I'll grant you one point: my opinions on you are kind of wishy-washy. It's not me being afraid to call you scum--I honestly, truly have no idea what to make of you right now.

But I'm sorry. I tunnel often, and even I think this is

ridiculous

. Not to sound arrogant, but I know I don't look as scummy as you're saying I look. There is no scumtell that is 100% accurate for someone's first two posts of the game. Your read is set in stone because of a minor inconsistency in my post, so you refuse to interact with me or even correct me on something I misread in a twenty-page game because you know I'm scum? You refuse to tell people why my new posts give you bad vibes? I mean, you're not even going to explain to my "protectorate" why my proof that there was no dissonance is garbage?

But clearly, if you refuse to interact with me, then there's no point in me interacting with you anymore. See you when ortolan is lynched.

[Mina]

And since some people have been making arguments based on the assumption of its absence:

scum can most likely daytalk.

I believe this because I have a QT that remains open during the day. I toyed with the possibility that scum have no daytalk and have to use various QTs to communicate with one another in the presence of town, but there's no evidence of that in my QT, so I think it's unlikely.

*cough*

*cough* *cough* *cough*

Okay.

I have a feeling that we've just stumbled upon the Kinetic Twist-of-the-Game, but...

Your QT has

day

talk?

[Mina]

And what a way to weasel out of a case on you, "I don't have time to get into a huge back and forth".

I'd like to see some posts from Mina that are less than 6 paragraphs.

Choose one.

Do you want me to rip your horrendous case to shreds (because my response is typed up and ready to post) in a wall-post, or do you want me to weasel out of the case you made on me and cut down the wall-posting?

Make it quick. I'm running late.

(Um...you realize the back-and-forth comment was directed to SpyreX...whose case I'd already

answered

? What's your problem? Did I kill your grandmother or something?)

[Mina]

And since some people have been making arguments based on the assumption of its absence:

scum can most likely daytalk.

I believe this because I have a QT that remains open during the day. I toyed with the possibility that scum have no daytalk and have to use various QTs to communicate with one another in the presence of town, but there's no evidence of that in my QT, so I think it's unlikely.

*cough*

*cough* *cough* *cough*

Okay.

I have a feeling that we've just stumbled upon the Kinetic Twist-of-the-Game, but...

Your QT has

day

talk?

I understand that this is your first large game, but can you really stop going out of your way to act all "OMGOSH NO WAI!"

It's typical of larger games to have QTs for each faction.

Someone here doesn't get it.

Note the italics.

[Mina]

All this talk of ending the day early is ridiculous. We have a MINIMUM three-week deadline, and it's been five days since the game even started. Also, you realize you can wait to send your worship vote until the last hour of N1, right? What's the rush?

As much as I'm glad not to be the leading wagon (and wouldn't exactly cry if ort was lynched)...WTF, Nikanor suddenly suspects ortolan instead of me? Speaking of which, where the fuck is ortolan?

I've been thinking a lot about this game during my V/LA. Very interesting thoughts.

But before I start turning the heat on, time to catch up. Iecerint first. I'd told you I'd get around to you:

2. @Kinetic: I'm going to a wedding this weekend, so I'll be V/LA until Monday. Unfortunately, I don't have much time today. To-do list for Monday: answer ooba's questions,

reread Iecerint and show the quotes that I like and dislike from him (I can't for the life of me make up my mind on Iec)

, react to SK's and Snow_Bunny's most recent posts, and scream at all the people who STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS. But right now I'm becoming a distraction, so first things first...

You just have so many posts that I'm lazy and keep on putting this off. Besides, so many people are complaining about the walls that I thought posting my tl;dr wishy-washy thoughts on Iecerint wasn't much of a priority. But since you asked...

Iecerint: A Novel

by Mina

Author's Note: no one needs to read this monstrosity unless you're either 1) wondering if you should vote Iecerint today (you shouldn't), 2) looking for proof that Iecerint and I are scumbuddies (we aren't), or 2) Iecerint himself (in which case, I hate you for making me write this!).

Chapter 1: The Bad

-The overly technical comment: in Fables when you made a big deal with Gerhard Krause's "OTOK" and spoke a lot about the mechanics of posting restrictions and the importance of casting a random vote. I saw shades of that here earlier in the game (admittedly, some of it was gut, because I'd skimmed a little). I felt the same way as DTMaster did about your post on Fate, in which you voted Fate for being antitown on principle. I also thought you overdid the venom against players who screwed up the voting. Furthermore, I felt as though some of your reasons for suspecting me were a little nitpicky. For example, this one:

But I should note that, upon reflection, it's a little weird that this sequence of events would happen:

1. Mina considers whether she should ask about the late addition's alignment.
2. Mina decides it's OK and asks.
3. Mina says she's worried about set-up speculation leading to role-fishing.

I think I would've expected townMina to lampshade (2) in (3). It's in the back of my head.

I was too busy catching up to respond to it at the time. But when I first read that, I internally went, "Oh,

come on.

Do you think I'm going to say, 'I have a few theories about the set-up, but unlike asking DTM and ortolan about their recruitment, which I thought was a perfectly protown thing to ask for the following reason, I think my theories might lead to role-fishing'? Who explains every throwaway sentence they write?"

-I don't know what the hell ABR is talking about when he says you're "pushing" a case on me. But my problem with you has been the opposite--you've kind of been circling me all game, saying you suspect me, then saying you don't suspect me, then saying you suspect me again. (You've recently taken a firmer stance.)

This is long enough, so I won't write up a huge case with quotes to show what gave me the impression you were flip-flopping on me. In a nutshell, even when you agreed with Faraday that my explanation was fine, you left yourself open to voting me again. Your reaction to SpyreX's case was neutral and non-committal. You seemed to suspect me, until you admitted to DTMaster that you thought my 355

was

a towntell. But then I think you mentioned that (I can't find the quote, so maybe I'm misremembering.)

That's what I meant before about you being reluctant to join wagons before. (And yeah, when I said I noticed the same trend in Fables, I was talking about your late kpaca hop--I assumed you'd been waiting for the bandwagon to gain steam, not that you wanted to distance first.)

-You're not the only person guilty of this, but you tend go on a lot about the set-up and the worship mechanics. It feels a bit like IIoA.

-Finally, you know how to look active and helpful as scum--meaning I need a bit of scepticism when dealing with you. :shocked:

Chapter 2: The Good

-I'd meant to bring this up at the time, but I started feeling better about you after your CryMeARiver vote. Your case on Fate was gaining traction. You could have also justified a jump on to my wagon. Instead you voted for a lurker for meta reasons. There was no scum opportunism in the vote. Furthermore, you, me and ortolan are now the competing bandwagons. You've left yourself open to vote me AND ortolan, but you're sticking to CMAR instead of trying to save your own skin.

-Right now, people have accused you of being my partner. You could have made yourself look good by pretending to be swayed by the case on me (you'd left yourself open to it) and voting me to prove we weren't linked, but instead you're keeping your vote on CMAR. Since I know I'm town, this makes you look better.

-You show signs of looking beyond the surface and trying to follow leads--for example, when you asked Plum about her read on CMAR because you knew she'd played with him before.

-I think your motivations for revealing that you had daytalk came across as protown. You

could

be a scum neighbour sharing this information to look town, but your explanation of your thought process came across as open and unguarded. I don't see bad intentions there. (While I was writing this, you posted the elaborate explanation of how you were fishing for the stranger in your QT, which is WAAAAAY too involved for scum.)

(Re: my shocked "

day

-talk?" before...never mind. Never mind. It seemed like the conversation was heading in a certain direction, but...another story for another day.)

-Your most recent posts have come across as relatively sincere and open with your thoughts. And you're actually scumhunting and contributing cases that aren't concentrated craplogic, unlike most of the players in this game. Rereading your posts in ISO, I noticed that many of the posts I'd sort of skimmed contain actual content.

-This and this post. I didn't want to tip my hand right away before pushing both of them, but holy fuck. YOU. READ. MY. MIND. Seriously, I've been entertaining mad conspiracy theories of a SpyreX-ABR scumteam throughout my entire V/LA.

-I personally think the fact that you happened to choose the Norse gods is irrelevant--and strongly suspect those who are trying to build a case Also, didn't several others claim their god target? No one has explained why your "pushing" of the Norse gods was scummier than anyone else's worship claim.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Chapter 3: The TL;DR Summary

-I don't want to lynch Iecerint today. In fact, I don't think he'd even make my top ten lynch choices. Why don't we thin out the flagrantly scummy and hypocritical players first?

-Started the game with a mild scum read on him, but have gradually come to trust him. Writing this post made me come out much more firmly on the town side. (First person who says that we planned this all in our QT? Suck. IT.)

-Pros: active, pro-town playstyle, makes cases and questions multiple targets, called ABR and SpyreX on hypocrisy, lack of opportunism in voting, interested in looking beneath the surface, very open with his thoughts, shows signs of internal reflection, bandwagon on him is based on gut and on bullshit "Norse" accusations, almost certainly town after his daytalk and ABR revelation

-Cons: tends too much toward IIoA, gets nitpicky over minor details, looks protown regardless of alignment, seemed to keep his options open on me before, does tend to go on tangents and lose his temper, gave me funny vibes early on

And for the record, the next person who says, "Mina doesn't want to lynch Iecerint today! That totally makes them scumbuddies!" gets strangled through his computer monitor. Anyone in a twenty-eight player game who's voting on D1 based purely on one player stating ambivalent or positive feelings toward another player (particularly if one or both players seem otherwise protown) is either scum or dumb.

[Mina]

Thanks for making me waste three and a half hours of my life, Iecerint.

NOW do you see why I kept putting that off?

Nikanor shouldn't have been voting for Mina JUST to get some sort of magical information, he should vote for her because he thinks she's scum.

I don't see your point. Have you considered the possibility of me being a village idiot? You've never played with me before, so you shouldn't know whether I'm a VI or not

Is this a joke or a serious defence?

Are you using the excuse for "maybe I'm a VI" to defend scummy things you've done? You're admitting to using bad logic on purpose as a survival strategy? VIs don't know they're VIs. (Psst, the point is to act so dumb and illogical that everyone makes the VI excuse for you. The effect is ruined if you spell it out for us.)

And that's not even a defence! Is your point that Katy shouldn't accuse you of making a vote for bad/scummy reasons, because for all she knows, you might be a VI? That doesn't change that your defence only holds if you really are a VI.

Also, can you answer this already?

Fate, please explain just what Nikanor has done that makes him town. I've never played with him before, but I can't see it no matter how hard I squint.

[Mina]

So Fate, meta is only okay when you use it? That said, NICE catch on ortolan!

And what exactly out of that post do you want me to answer? Why my vote is on ortolan? It's because he's lurking.

Fair enough on the first part. Follow the link in that post. I meant my case on you for your earlier behaviour concerning me. Some kind of reaction would've been nice.

As much as I'm glad not to be the leading wagon (and wouldn't exactly cry if ort was lynched)...

What do you mean by the parenthesized bit?

First of all,

here

,

colour

-

coding

just

for

you

.

It means exactly what it says it means. I wouldn't exactly cry if ort was lynched--which is why I'm voting for him. Yet the wagon is still kind of sudden. Something seemed fishy about Nikanor and SpyreX's hops off my wagon and onto ort's. (Yes, I know SpyreX said he suspected ortolan, but he never once explained why. And didn't SpyreX say he suspected Iecerint more?)

I'm wondering if ortolan is being bussed or if someone else is being protected. I have a good sense for frame cases, and ooba's Mina-Iecerint case is tingling my radar.

[Mina]

EBWOP: by "fair enough on the first part," I meant this:

The point is that Katy shouldn't be telling me why I should be voting people. Whether I voted for someone because I think they're scum or because I'll get something that I think will help me find scum the next day really shouldn't impact my alignment.

I forgot to quote it.

[Mina]

Hmm? What would ooba be framing who for?

Um...if he were scum, he'd be framing you and me? Frame case = case scum makes on townie (usually distorting or twisting the evidence) to get townie lynched.

[Mina]

Fate, since that was your excuse for your playstyle, you've already made sure that the scum won't be killing you for a long time. You can go back to normal now.

But I can almost see town!Nikanor. Almost. Nik, why did you vote for ortolan in particular amongst the lurkers?

Chronopie...

...

...*twitch*

Are you...is he always this...*twitches convulsively*

It's two-thirty in the morning here, and I have to wake up early tomorrow, so I'll save my defence against ooba for then. FWIW, some of my problems with ooba are gut, and maybe it's just the OMGUS talking. In a nutshell, it's how superficial some of his accusations are--he's fixating on minor details, and offering shallow analysis. But it might be my fault for having put off responding to his original case.

Let's see if I can oblige manho with a Starbuck rebuttal and break my promise to ignore SpyreX before I pass out from exhaustion.

[Mina]

Um...to force players you can't read to justify themselves? Because it's impossible to tell from that post if Chrono is bussing ortolan or jumping on an easy wagon or genuinely suspicious of him?

I can't deny that my playstyle rubs a lot of people the wrong way, but what's the harm in asking? I'm pretty sure I know how Nikanor will explain his vote for ortolan (if he's town, anyway). Doesn't change the fact that making him explain himself makes him more readable. It keeps him on his toes and forces him to show us his thought process. I don't care if this makes me look like I'm trying too hard; at least it gets people talking.

(That said, my comment about your playstyle came out harsher than I intended. I should have added a smiley.)

It's three AM. Saving my Starbuck reply for tomorrow.

[Mina]

Sorry, I'm in the middle of writing a giant wall post. Shit is going too quickly for me.

As sad as I am to give up my cushy position on the Ort train:

unvote

This is just to make sure no one quickhammers. I'm not quite ready for the day to end. I'll revote in a bit.

Also, fuck you, SpyreX, for being town. ABR is probably still scum, though.

[Mina]

AN UNVOTE APPROACHES

Also, fuck you, SpyreX, for being town.

Seriously MO this is what you're protecting.

I want that known.

YOU. YOU RUINED ALL MY THEORIES. THEY WERE GLORIOUS!

You and ABR were Old One scum together! And you'd revealed the effects of Delirium to push us to worship the Old Ones. Or maybe you were totally lying about Delirium, and just wanted to fuck up the town's night actions!

And you'd seen me say that this was my first large game, so you thought I was easy pickings. (Because no one but scum could suspect me, of course.)

But I was too awesome and unlynchable for you! And thwarted your brilliant schemes. You cried and stomped your feet because my concentrated pro-town laser beams prevented you from bamboozling the town. Which was why you never explained why you still had bad vibes on me.

I was totally going to turn the heat on and rip you a new one the moment I'd finished responding to the five zillion posts people keep asking me to answer.

BUT NOW YOU'RE TOWN WHO JUST HATES MY GUTS BECAUSE I SUCK.

I HATE YOU.

*cries*

I still support the Ortolan wagon, but could we just hold off the end of the day a teensy bit? Like, not this immediate second? I'm not quite ready.

[Mina]

Good to know you're lurking, dramonic.

Why do you want to know? Maybe it's because I want to finish my posts to ooba and Starbuck first.

Or maybe I'm the combination healer-roleblocker-dayvig-cop, and the scum should nightkill me before I rip them a new one. Are you trying to rolefish?

[Mina]

...Um, except I've been the second vote on Ortolan all day? So you know, if I'm trying to divert attention from Ortolan, supporting his case until he hits L-2 and is guaranteed to be lynched is the wrong time to do it.

[Mina]

Dramonic, I'm just curious. Who are your suspects right now, other than ortolan?

Sorry. Still waiting on something before I end the day. Show a little patience, why don't you? ort is likely scum because no one's claimed to have recruited him, but why does it matter if we lynch him today or tomorrow?

I don't think that MO should be that confident in my alignment...but I'm not scum anyway, so it's all good.

FWIW, the "fuck you, SpyreX" wasn't serious--there was a comment in my mind at the end there.

SpyreX was acting pretty shady (role reveal aside) during the middle of Day One. And his response to Iec's catch on ABR made me more confident that they were partners. "Hmm, that was an interesting find. Maybe I'll pay attention to it." (*never pays attention to it*)

What first made me doubt my conspiracy theories was that on a reread, SX is practically gnashing his teeth at all the people calling me town. Seriously, you can feel the heat of his blood boiling. That's me when I'm totally sure I'm right and everyone else dismisses me as crazy. And he's come across as a lot more natural in his posts today.

I'm sorry. I wrote a huge temper tantrum and deleted it. But right now, I am not in a happy place. I'm playing an utterly shit game this week because I'm trying to scumhunt and defend myself at the same time and doing a half-assed job of both. It's not that I'm ignoring the cases on me (I've had half-finished responses to Starbuck's and ooba's posts saved in Gmail for days); it's that I'm too slow to keep up with everything I've missed and falling asleep in the middle of writing posts, and when I

do

post, people don't like the walls so I feel guilty using my time to defend myself.

Seriously, do people

want

me to defend myself now, or would they rather I just give reads and comment on the scummy posts I've missed?

[Mina]

This might sound silly, SpyreX, but I really appreciate you talking to me as though I'm not confirmed scum.

I agree with you and MO on offensive vs. defensive. It's just that Starbuck and ooba accused me of trying to weasel out of their cases on me by not answering them right away. Day Two it is.

As you've probably noticed, I have a high threshhold of patience for long day ones and battling quote walls, so I generally prefer using our time to get as much information as possible. Normally, I'd have my doubts on the ort wagon because it grew so easily, but the lack of a recruiter-claim makes him very likely scum...

...Hold on.

I needed to check something before I revote anyway, but I just thought of something.

How patient are people willing to be? Because it would be a very, VERY good idea for ortolan to claim who recruited him, first. Or to force a replacement to claim for him instead.

A VERY good idea.

[Mina]

Hmm. DTM confirmed there was

some

link, but...wait. I just realized recruiter and recruitee don't necessarily have the same win conditions.

Either way, ort's claim would probably tell us a lot more if he flips town than if he flips scum.

Question to players who've played with ort before: is he the one you'd have recruited from that list, as scum or town? The one game I've seen him play (Gonzo Mafia), he was lynched on D1 as scum.

[Mina]

DTM, I agree that CMAR (and dramonic for that matter) are guiltier of ignoring this game than ort. But for the record, this is

exactly

how ortolan acted (throwing a temper tantrum over being lynched for "personal" reasons and resorting to ad hominems) in Gonzo.

So ortolan, you're not going to so much as address your discrepancy on ABR? Or make a case? Or explain why you were ignoring this game? Or tell us just how you joined the game or if you were recruited? Come on, if you're town, you'll be giving us a confirmed townie even if you do get lynched!

For the record, someone who makes a post as immature as 875 should take a good hard look in the mirror if he's wondering why he's getting lynched all the time.

Speaking of lurkers, dramonic, you never answered this:

Dramonic, I'm just curious. Who are your suspects right now, other than ortolan?

Or, you know, this from pages ago:

@dramonic: why did you vote for me, considering you didn't mention me in your one post of impressions?

Going to take a shower now, but I'll try to finish a response to ABR before I leave for work today. Oh, will it be a response.

[Mina]

mina's recent posts are really townie. so unvote

i'll read ortolan later.

so ort is prodded. i'll wait for another day for him to show up then.

i also agree that CMAR is scummier than ort. CMAR is actively lurking, while ort seems forgotten it. and i don't believe that claim.

vote: Albatross (CMAR)

Something does not fit here. Something does not fit at all. What makes you think ortolan had forgotten about this game, but CMAR is active lurking? I want quotes.

Also, reread manho in ISO. Compare the ratio of his posts about the theory of worshipping to his posts about actual suspects. Oh, and you never gave that Iec ISO read you promised, either.

My buddy senses are tingling.

[Mina]

I doubt ort is the GF because of how easily this wagon has gone through.

Okay, ort. I'm leaving for work now. You have until I get back to claim your recruiter before I hammer.
-------

I'll try to keep this short because I'm late for work, but ABR, instead of using lame insults like "witless cockroach" to try to bully people out of attacking you, why don't you respond to this post by Starbuck:

On ABR

The thing is, Plum, that I find Iecerint pushing a false case on Mina. It doesn't seem like legitimate scumhunting to me. IDK maybe it's because I unconsciously see similarities in the style of play from Iecerint in this game and when he was scum with me before.

Can you elaborate on this?

Where did this happen?
Why does it make you feel this way?

You ignored this, and just unvoted.

I found Plum, SK, and ABR all opportunistic in their interaction with Iecerint re: him voting CMAR over ort (his reasons made sense to me). But just noticed this:

None. Oh, ortolan got recruited and CMAR didn't. Woooh.

ABR, do you realize that the recruitment is a point for ort's scumminess? What does this have to do with CMAR? Are you attacking Iecerint for voting CMAR over ort and defending ort at the same time?

Oh, and this sounds familiar:

Could be ortolan just forgot about this game.

I'm certainly not ready to lynch you today because of your claim, but that doesn't mean I can't suspect you. You're acting like aimless Fables!Scum!ABR.

ABR, do you suspect ortolan?

[Mina]

I'll hammer when I get back from work (in about six or seven hours). I'd just like a claim first.

[Mina]

Freedom! Sweet, sweet freeedoooom!

Okay. Right now, I'm trying to catch up in another game and don't have much time, so I'll save my suspicions, thoughts on what I missed, and reread of Percy/inHim for later. But first I'll come forward with the information everyone is waiting for.

Like Mighty Orbots said, we share a QT with night-talking together. We have not been confirmed to each other as town; however, I currently trust him.

Mighty Orbots warned about the no action Day-Night cycle on D3 long in advance. He also said on N1 that he would investigate Starbuck and Saint_Kerrigan, so it really was bad luck that both of them ended up dead by N2. He is also telling the truth about someone redirecting a kill toward inHimshallibe.

Everything dramonic has mentioned in the thread about limbo is what he told me. He did tell me I was his meatshield, and we were chatting in a QT all day. When I saw that I'd been placed in limbo, I thought it was because the scum wanted to shut me up...but no, apparently dramonic just suspected me. Our QT was called an interrogation room, and Kinetic's opening post said it was a place for [insert role name] to interrogate his captives (which implies I'm a suspect, although Kinetic might have been deliberately misleading). That said, I kind of have to do mental gymnastics to understand how the flavour of his role fits with his abilities.

He chose me because he wasn't sure I was town, but wasn't sure I was scum, either. When I pressed him afterward, dramonic pretty much admitted in our QT that he was just sheeping SpyreX because he trusted him due to SpyreX's redirection ability fitting with dramonic's immunity to it. (Thanks, SpyreX. <_<)

Finally, he released me because he

was fed up with all my walls of text in the QT

said I'd probably be more useful here. Before Zorblag's Plum suggestion, he'd wanted to take someone he said would be a good meatshield because of his lurking (not sure if I should reveal the target), although dramonic wasn't particularly suspicious of him.

Not to bring back Sky flashbacks, but dramonic originally posted under a pseudonym. He revealed himself after I had fun guessing who he was (I guessed right, because I'm awesome ). However, Kinetic referred to dramonic by that same pseudonym. And later, dramonic said it was his real role name. In fact, he joked that he wouldn't give himself a pretentious title like that. I don't think dramonic is Sky.

You know, maybe I'm suffering from Stockholm syndrome, but I'm actually leaning toward trusting dramonic. As with Mighty Orbots, his play in the thread has been consistent with his play in the QT. And judging by his spotty play, I don't think he could keep up the act that well if he were scum. Of course, he might have pretended to be town so that I could vouch for him when he released me into the thread. And I would also be a great limbo target for scum, because I was both active and a viable lynch. But I dunno. His suspicions and opinions aren't fleshed out, and I find he tends to parrot a bit, but he sounds genuine and consistent.

I was planning on revealing everything about limbo in the thread today without giving away the identity of the limboer unless he was in danger of a lynch. But everyone threatening to vig dramonic forced his hand (read: made me shout that if he didn't confess and I got vigged instead of him, I would throw a fit). It would tell scum how to work around the jailkeeping, but I'd rather eat a nightkill than a vig kill. The fact that dramonic confessed is a point in his favour, although I did mention in the QT that he might be lynched or vigged again if the kill on him failed.

If people have any questions, feel free to ask them.

Oh, yeah. One last thing.

I

was the one who noticed the inconsistency in ooba's suspect list. I was venting in the interrogation room QT over how no one else had picked up on it. Had I been in the game, I would have pressed ooba a lot harder on it. His weird theorizing gives him a few town points, but I still don't quite buy that he had a total change of heart on ALL his suspects. MO was defending me BEFORE ooba implied he still wanted to lynch me. As SpyreX would put it...cognitive dissonance.

Iecerint, you said that you found dramonic's misrep of ooba scummy--to the point that you VOTED him primarily for pointing out the contradiction. Does it change your read on me to know that

I

was the one who thought it was a contradiction? Then, when

I

dramonic pointed out quotes where ooba had clung to his suspects even after new events had occurred, you saw his point, but still left your vote on him. I've been wavering back and forth on you (I started suspecting you again at the beginning of Day Two, but thought you were more likely town by the end), but why the hell would you give a kneejerk defence of ooba before even rereading to see if dramonic's accusations were true? Regardless of ooba's alignment, that's fishy. Couldn't you have just waited for ooba to answer that himself?

[Mina]

Heh heh, I got that one. Capturing players, too. Not so much the interrogation room.

[Mina]

Sorry for my drop in activity. The past few days, I've been working eight-hour shifts and getting home late every evening. I'll wait until Monday to decide where to place my vote, because I'd like to reread the thread.

Anyone notice this:

A role cop investigation was concluded on manho after the night phase. The results show that

she

was Paul Atreides.

Paul Atreides is the main character from Dune, and is very male.

Beholder: Is manho's gender a mistake or intentional?

I'm hoping it means manho isn't what he appears to be.

Most likely I copied another player's reveal (in this case SpyreX's) so they were kept identical and replaced the relevant information. Oops.

--------------------

I'll be honest. Right now I feel that the game has stagnated with all the role and set-up discussion. I understand the POV that information is useful in a game this complex (and MO knows another reason I might like a massclaim). And I'm not familiar enough with Mind Screw games to know the viability of mass claim as a strategy. OTOH, I'm afraid we're going to fall into a break-the-setup instead of a scumhunting frame of mind. (It's probably what killed the town in WoT Mafia.)

Seriously. It's telling that the moment one person laid out an actual case (a pretty good case, but one predicated mostly on stuff everyone already knew about CMAR), everyone is mesmerized by it and jumps aboard the wagon without much thought.

Three players whose claims would shed a lot of light on their motivations, however: CryMeARiver, Fate, and Albert B. Rampage. The former two because they're admitting to acting blatantly antitown as a strategy (but both have hinted at enough about their role to make me think they're not pulling everything out of their ass), and ABR because I would lean strong scum on him based on how he's played all game if census taker didn't only makes sense as a town role. (Unless he and Plum are a scumteam, I can't figure out how he'd be lying. And his early question asking people to guess at scumteam numbers is consistent with his claim.)

Katy, I'm pretty sure I know what it is you know about dramonic...and nope, it isn't a Batman reference. According to dramonic, it's far more obvious than that. Your read on totallynotmafia is pretty much the same as mine.

Hold on, now let's see if I can post my conclusions from my Percy reread before I fall asleep. (I have to wake up in four-five hours.)

[Mina]

Mighty Orbots, instead of giving Vasu an excuse in advance for why he targetted Snow_Bunny, you should have flat-out accused him of lying. Come on...make him sweat a little! Hold the investigation result over his head! Hint that you know what he did, then watch to see if the truth slowly dawns on him. Even if you trusted him,

he

didn't have to know that.

For all you know, he might have lied about protecting you (and really tried a role cop, attempted an action that was blocked, empowered SB because they're scumbuddies, did some crazy thing that only makes sense in a Kinetic game, etc.)...and, um, didn't notice you'd claimed to have watched Snow_Bunny because...um...let me indulge my paranoia. You might have got him to slip up!

Sheesh, some people have no thirst for blood.

[Mina]

Yeah, but...but...my way is more fun!

(In all seriousness, I think people show their true colours under pressure--so if VasudeVa is town, we'd have been even MORE sure of it had he acted totally bewildered in response to your attack.)

I started writing stuff about raj (to summarize: he was my top suspect yesterday and is horribly scummy, except Percy's vote on him makes him somewhat less likely to be scum) and Percy, but screw it. The Percy partnership analysis can wait until Monday.

I'll follow up on my ooba questioning later, but I'll just point out one thing I spotted:

Vote: Albatross because
- The only person not to have given me the N1 worship vote
- Lurking
- Has attacked: CMAR, Iece, ABR, Ort, Manho. I am unsure about Ort but have the rest pegged as town for now.

Okay, this is starting to get silly.

Off the top of my head, YOU'VE attacked three of the five players on that list (CMAR, Iec, ort). Was there something about the

nature

of Albatross's attacks that seemed scummier than your own? Or is it just that you don't like his suspects?

---------

By the way, I've heard a saying that if you try to list all the players in the game from memory, then the ones you can't remember are probably the scum. I've never seen that tell work, but it's a good exercise all the same for the people complaining that they're falling behind. Seriously, take out a piece of paper and try it.

Oh, and almost forgot:

Lottery: Spice

[Mina]

This is a lesson to me not to play more than one game at a time from now on. Otherwise my scumhunting takes a sharp dive. There are five hundred things I want to say (e.g., partnership analysis of Percy, response to ooba, revival of my ABR case) and reread (the sequence of events regarding VasudeVa's claim and ooba's "catch"), but I have to leave now. As annoyed as I am about how little case-making has been going on, it's hypocritical for me to complain when I still haven't cast a vote today. Just a quick comment:

Fate, that claim doesn't explain AT ALL why you're playing to avoid a nightkill. ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE A MILLER! Your play makes absolutely zero sense for your role. In fact, you've just claimed a role that protects yourself from a night kill.

You have one last chance before we lynch you. Explain why you're deliberately trying to look scummy.

And why didn't you claim Miller on D1?

I'm confused, are we supposed to claim ALL of our abilities? Some people don't seem to be doing that. I'm thinking people should use discretion when claiming their active abilities. If the scum have roleblockers or redirectors (if VasudeVa is town, then the latter is certainly true), they'll know how to neutralize power roles.

[Mina]

Actually, can I ask a question to all the people who started off with QTs?

Were the role names of the players you share QTs with given in your PMs?

[Mina]

Xite91, do you know why Faraday's N1 vig kill on you failed?

I see two fairly likely scumbags in that list already, but I'd like to wait until everyone claims to elaborate.

Funny, I was just about to opine that a massclaim was totally useless, because everyone seems to have variations of the same role. This kind of set-up deconstruction is really not my forte (of course, I knew what I was getting into when I signed up).

Okay, just a warning. Part of my delay in claiming is because I was waiting for Kinetic on something about my role PM. There's something in my role that I thought was a mistake, but that Kinetic implied was very deliberate protection from people guessing information I thought would have been innocuous. I'm starting to think there are certain scum roles that need information to work. Also, if Kinetic went to that level of detail to hide the flavour of a town character, I doubt we'll catch the scum based on claims alone.

(Yes, I'm being vague, but I have no idea what's safe to reveal and what isn't. Already, I'm starting to think we fucked up by having a massclaim at all.)

That said, it doesn't hurt me to claim:

Rolename:

The Wizard Ged, from

Earthsea

God/Mortal:

Mortal

And for the record? The theories that I was so coy about early in the game were "Are the scum divided evenly among the gods, or is one god faction its own scumteam?" I was bouncing around set-up theories in my QT on N0. But posting that would reveal that I wasn't a god (and possibly lead to the real gods giving themselves away). I'd assumed the gods would have juicier roles than the men. I have no clue where people got the idea that I was inconsistent on "worship mechanics discussion" from; the theories I withheld had nothing to do with worship mechanics.

Any Worship Modifiers:

None

Worship vote N1:

Great Old Ones

Worship vote N2:

None (I was limboed)

Faction (if any):

None

Abilities:

Passive: I share a QT with at least Mighty Orbots.
Active:
1) Rapid: I can choose up to three targets and heal them...but the heals have a significant limiting factor that it only harms the town for me to explain (changing me from an overpowered role to a mediocre one).
2) Daybreak: Like Katy, I can also investigate people's role names.

D1: Albatross's redirect of me would have had no effect, since I used rapid actions.

As I told MO in our QT, I fucked up a little. I didn't see Rule 16 and thought I could use rapid and daybreak abilities on the same day. So instead of waiting until N1 to use the rolecop investigation, I fired off heals at the end of the day. For protection targets, I chose SpyreX because he was the most obvtown player in the game by the end, Plum because she was the third person on the ort wagon and therefore a likely kill if ort flipped scum (while Fate was acting like a lunatic), and Iecerint because he was actively scumhunting and I trusted him at the time. Iecerint was a pretty stupid heal, since everyone suspected him, but I put almost no thought into my choices due to time pressure and their likelihood of failing.

If you're wondering why SpyreX died anyway...again, the limiting factor. Those heals were pretty much shots in the dark.

Also, time to explain these quotes:

As sad as I am to give up my cushy position on the Ort train:

unvote

This is just to make sure no one quickhammers. I'm not quite ready for the day to end. I'll revote in a bit.

I still support the Ortolan wagon, but could we just hold off the end of the day a teensy bit? Like, not this immediate second? I'm not quite ready.

That was me panicking because I hadn't sent in my day action yet. I wasn't subtle about the breadcrumb because I was such a suspect that I was hoping to draw a night kill.

D2/N2: None (I was limboed)

[Mina]

The obscure information I'm talking about in my PM doesn't have to do with flavour text...but...eh, there's no way to explain it without revealing what it is. I'll save it for my QT buddies on N4, and they can tell me if it's information that would benefit the town.

I came up with an idea (unfortunately, it only works if ABR is town and isn't roleblocked), but I'll wait for ABR to answer Mighty Orbots's question about whether limboed players appear to the census.

Meanwhile, ABR, speaking of questions, I have a post from WAAAAAAY back on D1 that you never answered. This:

I feel important by accusing ABR blablabla

/ignore

isn't an answer.

Considering you're the genius who claims to have guessed that Odin was the godfather before the game started, but not noticed inHim flipping Odin OR Tar claiming inHim was the GF, EVEN THOUGH YOU NOTICED THAT INHIMSHALLIBE HAD DIED...sorry. You don't get to use the "I'm too awesome to be suspected" defence this game. ABR can't be scum unless Plum is his buddy or scum were given a census ability...but have you explained a single read all game?

---------------------
I need to do a huge scum/town list, because I honestly have no fucking idea who to vote for right now. Yes, I know that not voting is a scumtell/antitown/etc. I just really feel as though there's too much conflicting and confusing evidence in this monster thread, and I haven't processed it all well enough to come to the right conclusion.

Right now, I think AdumbroDeus is town...which means I'm going to take a good look at the CMAR wagoners. AD, did manho or inHim post in the graveyard topic? (manho, if he's town, should have shared opinions or a claim.)

As I said to dram in our QT, I actually thought DarkStalker was town even though I disagreed with most of what he said, because he sounds totally spaced out.

Going to delve into my suspects in depth when I have time. I'm falling behind in all my games.
---------------------
I trust Faraday, because I highly doubt he'd redirect a vig kill to a godfather when that would automatically add two townies to the game. That said, no one has explained why Faraday's kill failed. Xite91 claims not to know anything about his role, and no one has openly stated that they roleblocked Faraday or protected/jailkept Xite91.

Albatross, why did you choose Faraday to give your redirect to? I don't think you explained your town read on him. No offence to Faraday, but he didn't look obvtown at the end of D2; he was on a lot of vig lists. Also, why didn't you just use it yourself? If you have a redirection power anyway, wouldn't you rather use the ability yourself than give it to someone else?

Also, Albatross, can someone use an item AND an ability on the same night?

-----

Because my flavor message told me he was benevolent. I have never played in a mafia game where scum was benevolent. Just in case, "benevolent" means "good." It seems kind of weird to me if if Xite were scum that the mod would tell me he is a good spirit.

Katy, your information on dramonic was his role name ("White Knight"). But Xite91 claims he's a "Wayward Spirit," not just a "benevolent spirit." Are you saying his role name was "benevolent spirit"?

[Mina]

Hi, I'm really sorry to have disappeared like that. I hate that I've become

that

player after I was so active on D1, but I'll be honest. This game is becoming a huge stressor. I don't have much spare time outside of work, and right now, I'm failing miserably at trying to juggle RL and Internet commitments. And after a month of staying up late each night trying to catch up with games, I'm suffering from a bad case of Mafia burnout. I'm not backing out of a commitment, but I don't have the time or the discipline to put my full heart and soul into this game right now. Even right now, I should be sending a resume that was due days ago (or

sleeping

) instead of writing this post.

I'm going to keep this light on content, because I don't want this to be yet another post I've started and abandoned out of exhaustion.

Hey, you know what? I have a totally awesome idea. How about when Day Four begins, we just scrap everything and start the RVS again? And only turn back to the first 100 pages for the occasional fact check? Seriously. I have a high tolerance for walls and information overload, and even I'm finding pages and pages of arguments over whose worship vote counts for how much and whose claim has extremely demoralizing. TBH, I've skimmed over a lot of the claims discussion (including 70% of what DarkStalker has said all game).

I don't understand the wall mina posted at all

ABR: did you just see the name "Mina" and assume it was a wall post? My questions were relatively short. I think your weird defence of ortolan needs an explanation. But since that's too hard for you, I'll make it simple. Reeeaaaaallly simple.

No one is exempt from the census. There is no targeting. It never lies when it comes through and anyone trying to talkshit should be executed.

No, because you claimed there were twenty-five players in the game. There were actually twenty-six, including myself. Clearly, you either botched your claim or someone was untargettable. So try this again:

Do. Limboed. Players. Appear. To. The. Census.

You've only been asked that question eight times. If you don't know the answer, then PM Beholder.

Your answer is crucial information. I'll explain why afterward.

ooba, what the hell.

Vote: Chronopie

(raj is already at L-1? I have mixed feelings on the raj wagon. On N2, when I was reading the White Council QT discussion over whom to redirect SB's kill to, I was actually thinking, "Meh, if I weren't stuck in limbo, I'd be urging them to vig raj instead." He did lots of stuff--being eager to push ortolan to a claim, lurking, the easy Plum vote for "self-voting," making very safe and wishy-washy opinions. But I do think Percy's early jump onto raj makes raj less likely to be his buddy. I've been meaning to look more closely at Percy's scum games and see if he's prone to bussing. Question to players who know raj: is he always this...um, ineffectual?)

[Mina]

Right now, I'm posting this on my (new ) phone, so this is kind of a pain in the ass to write, but quick comments:

1) Fate, I'm using the "too scummy to be scum" defence. Here was my scumbuddy raj, at L-1, guaranteed to be lynched, with everyone eager for the day to end. While his bandwagon was growing and growing, I stayed in the shadows and didn't either bus or create momentum elsewhere. And what do I do all of a sudden? I show up out of the blue and draw attention to myself with a non-committal defence of him, but don't push another wagon. If I'd have known raj would flip scum, I wouldn't have made an ass of myself like that. (That said, I have no idea how I managed to get under so much suspicion on d1 when I was putting a lot of effort into scumhunting, but have suddenly been treated like obvtown on D3 when I lurked the day away.)

2) To clarify, ooba, my "what the hell" comment was in response to your request for me to vote someone,

anyone

. It seemed like you wanted to test my ability to vote. Hence my random Chronopie vote when it was too late for him to be lynched.

3) If limboed players didn't appear to the census, then my plan would have been to use dramonic and ABR's powers together in order to investigate people. My alignment could have been verified tonight with ABR's census (if he counted three Mafia, then obviously me being added to the census pool didn't change the scumteam size). It would also put ABR and Xite in a 1 v. 1. But right now, ABR's results make no sense.

4) Three scum flips on the same day have definitely helped revive my motivation...but I just realized something strange.

So for vig kills, it goes rolecop investigation, sane alignment cop investigation, then true role and alignment, right?

Except if inHim was the godfather, shouldn't he have appeared as town to the twilight alignment cop?

Beholder: was that a mistake?

[Mina]

This is the tl;dr, I'm-on-a-bus-and-long-overdue-for-a-prod version of this post.

Okay, that's it. I don't think DS is scum. He's starting to sound really, really genuine. Fuck, is it too late to push the alternative?

Vote: Chronopie

DTMaster, why did you vote DarkStalker after his claim? Brcuase tou don't believe him?

Ugh, ooba has bugged me since Day One. But he's also been really active, and I haven't had time to process the information in this thread well enough to trust my own judgment. I wish I wasn't playing such a shitty game. Can we hold off on ending the day a little? I'd like time to catch up.

[Mina]

Katy, several people are in a QT with Faraday. Really not sure why you're singling out Faraday, but we know if he had a night action to take or if he did nothing. It would be too late for him to change your story after you claim.

Now stop stalling and answer Tarhalindur's question.

(Mina too but I'll attribute it to catching up as she's not voting twice)

In the first vote count, you should attribute it to me being in limbo.

Also, I'm fairly certain that both Iec and Parama are town based on stuff from DarkStalker in the Shared Dream thread.[/quote]Nikanor, can you paraphrase what DarkStalker said that makes you think they're town? Or is that classified information?

I've started rereading Day Three as well as players in ISO during the break, and I see a few strong interactions (either openly defending/buddying up to Iec or voting him) that make Iecerint a less likely scumbuddy to the flipped players, but I'd like to hear if you've got something concrete.

(Oh, and apparently I'm one of the few JCA worshippers who stuck to the plan.)

[Mina]

Hey, LynchMe!

How about these questions:

-What is your win condition? Town or scum?

-Do you have any passive abilities (e.g., abilities you don't have to do anything about, but are just there)?

-Can you be lynched or killed? Are there any situations in which you CANNOT be lynched or killed?

-Do you think anyone is scum yet?

[Mina]

Okay, sorry for the shitty welcome to the game, LynchMePls, but you're now confirmed scum. (Unfortunately, that means ABR was almost certainly town). Now we just have to figure out how to get rid of you.

Faraday, I probably should have asked you this last night in the QT, but what was the kill flavour of your one-shot vig? A lynch didn't work, and your N1 kill didn't work. It would be ridiculous if LMP was immortal. But I'm thinking zombies can only be destroyed when shot to the head, set on fire, etc. Tar, do you have any more "shot to the head" or "blown up" kills? Otherwise, I'm not sure how to get rid of him.

Tar, how good is your catch on dramonic? Because there should be only two scum left if ABR was telling the truth...and, um, it seems like we've got three.

Since Snow Bunny is dead, I think somebody's setting me up, since I now can't prove I went anywhere else but to her. If I have to get lynched behind that, well, there's nothing more I can say except to point out that the same thing has happened the previous night to someone else, but obviously the kill part of the plan didn't work.

It's interesting that you're quick to say that someone "set you up." No one could prove that you were REALLY redirected to Snow_Bunny unless a redirector claimed and you'd happened to have been tracked. How would we know that you'd targeted Snow_Bunny last night?

Also, you realize that the person redirected on N2 was a claimed protective role? So how would that plan have worked?

And finally, come up with a damn good explanation for the discrepancy between "wayward spirit," "benevolent spirit," and "zombie."

It is somewhat odd to me that LMPtown would think that Katy was scum. I'd like for him to elaborate about that.

Also this. Never mind that Katy cleared him; the last page of accusations against Katy and dramonic had only been related to extra information and set-up speculation. All of this should have flown over LMP's head. It reads as if he's just latching on to the most recent suspicions in the thread...but I'm not sure why I'm pointing out this, since LMP is confirmed scum, anyway.

The 1-1 was with SB (either claimed protective role VV was redirected to scum, or VV lied about his target). I suppose it's possible that VV was town, and scum just redirected him to anyone in order to keep him from blocking the kill, though (or of course, that they're buddies).

[Mina]

ooba, although LynchMePls has been investigated as Zombie, I won't outright claim anything. Yes, I know this is vague, but Tar, MO, Faraday, DTMaster, and Nikanor can all vouch for me on this. Sorry.

Tarhalindur, did your original role explicitly say that there's a White Knight out there, or are you just assuming the roles are linked because of the names and metagaming Kinetic? I was hoping for something more along the lines of "You've just been informed that you are now Batman, the Dark Knight. And an impostor who falsely styles himself the White Knight is threatening Gotham City!" But eh. I'd be okay with him getting lynched soon.

That said...

Vote: Katy

Even ignoring the redirect to SB, Katy and LynchMePls have both been caught lying. I think the evidence against them is slightly stronger than that against dramonic.

Of course, the evidence against LMP is strongest. Except HOW THE FUCK DO YOU GET RID OF HIM.

Katy, give up your item ASAP or hang today.

(Ugh, I really hope someone out there has a method of killing zombies. But I dunno. I know Chronopie randomly dying out of the blue was hilarious--even though it aborted my misguided efforts at saving poor, defenceless DarkStalker--but the rational part of my brain knows that if there is a dayvig with more than one shot out there, then this game would be ridiculously broken. Faraday, just in case, what's the kill flavour and ability name for Harry Dresden? If there's another town-aligned killing role out there, I'd advise him to shoot LMP if his ability is something that obviously kills zombies and withhold if it's something that wouldn't work on them.)

I'm not sure if Katy is cult, because then the redirect to Snow_Bunny wouldn't have meant anything.

I'd rather not waste an item since you cannot use abilities of two items at the same time. Katy, you should pass the item to me.

Um...but didn't Tarhalindur say he didn't have an item? Why can't he take it?

If that's really a problem, then I mean, I don't have an item. I know I've been useless and keep desperately trying to save all the scum (although in retrospect, I was probably right about ortolan and manho being buddies on Day One), but at least people know I'm town because I got lucky with my QT partners.

[Mina]

EBWOP: never mind, I see Tarhalindur already responded to ooba's point about the item. Sorry about that.

[Mina]

Beholder: prod AdumbroDeus, please.

I dunno. Does the worship block of JCA voters means there's scum among the GOO? What motivation would the Mafia or cult have for trying to swing the worship away from one faction and toward another? I trust both AdumbroDeus and Nikanor.

@Fate, did you kill Chronopie yesterday?

He already revealed that that was why he called Chrono town (to distance from the kill). Anyway, the flavour for both deaths (died from mysterious circumstances) was the same, so clearly the same person is responsible for both.

Um...much as I love the LynchMePls dayvig to bits, nice job getting yourself nightkilled tonight or redirected or roleblocked tomorrow when you weren't in danger before.

Am I the only one who thinks Katy almost as confirmed scum as LynchMePls was?

Vote: Katy

Mighty Orbots, do we 100%

have

to lynch dramonic over Katy today instead of lynching him tomorrow? (You don't have to explain why; just say, "HINT HINT HINT," and I'll blindly follow you.) I

kind

of get it, but...Katy was caught lying about her investigation result AND killed her redirection target. Her bewilderment surrounding the investigation result just reads like it's as fake as LMP's. I've reread her in ISO, and with the exception of being the first raj vote on D3 (but unvoting later), she works as a scumbuddy distancing and buddying up to town. When lots of people suspect raj and DarkStalker, she brings up points against them; when pressure evaporates, she leaves them and looks elsewhere. Just look at her behaviour on D1, and her move from the DarkStalker to the chronopie wagons on D2. If ABR was right and there are six Mafia (and I really think ABR is town after LynchMe's rolecop, because although ABR's D1 behaviour toward ort was very buddyish, Xite's tunneling on him isn't thinking), she's the last one. Also, look at how Katy and LynchMePls immediately vote for dramonic. I'm not all that certain he's scum. (I still haven't ISO'd him to see his interactions with the flipped players, though; IIRC, I don't think he's attacked a single Mafioso all game.)

Also, notice that like DarkStalker, her last words are to beg us to look out for the cult.

...Hmm. On second thought, dramonic's flip (White Knight or something else) would tell us more about Katy. But if we leave Katy alive until tomorrow, we'll have to waste a lynch/dayvig on her instead of gunning for the cult.

Katy, I think your best bet is probably to reveal and help us catch the cult at this point. Try the "I can work as a night-vig and hunt cult for you and totally reform, and we can be friends forever!" approach. You're not going to survive past Day 6.

[Mina]

AdumbroDeus, I didn't calculate the time since the thread was opened. I asked for you to be prodded because Mighty Orbots was waiting on your input from the dead players to continue the game. What's your point?

There are lots of questions to answer, but now's as good a time as any to nip this in the bud.

I've been really counting my lucky stars this game. Because I don't think I've ever looked as scummy as

scum

in about a year as I did on Day Three, never mind as

town

. (I honestly had no clue of what was going on until my reread over N4, because I'd been stressed out by having to skim over dozens of pages and second-guessing my reads until I fell into a paralysis of indecision.)

But by sheer dumb luck, I can confirm myself.

Firstly, I'm a wizard, and dramonic is either a chess piece or Harvey Dent. Even if one of dramonic or I is scum, at the very least, neither of us makes sense as the energy-beam killer. There's someone else on the team.

Secondly...Fate, could you confirm AGAIN to this whore that you focused Parama on N4? Did Beholder tell you if it failed? Also, during massclaim time, you mixed up your actions. Did you ever check with Beholder on whom you targeted N1 and N2?

Thirdly, I've had a trump card since Day Four. Presenting, the vote count in the middle of Day One.

1 Starbuck (0) -
2 Faraday (0) -
3 ABR (0) -
4 manho (0) -
5 dramonic (0) - Ortolan, S_B
6 chronopie (0) -
7 Fate (2) - Chronopie, Elscouta
8 ooba (0) - DTM
9 Mighty Orbots (2) -
10 Parama (1) -
11 Plum (0) - raj
12 totallynotmafia (0) - DarkStalker
13 SaintKerrigan (1) -
14 Elscouta (1) -
15 DarkStalker (0) - CryMeARiver, SaintKerrigan
16 Snow_Bunny (1) - SpyreX, Nikator, Starbuck
17 Nikanor (2) -
18 Mina (3) - dramonic
19 SpyreX (0) -
20 Katy (0) -
21 Tarhalindur (0) -
22 Percy (0) - Percy
23 Kairyuu (0) - ooba, Iece
24 rajrhcpfreak (1) - Faraday, Rampage, DarkStalker
25 CryMeARiver (2) - Fate, Mina, Plum
26 Iecerint (3) - Mighty Mighty Mighty Orbots, Parama
27 Ortolan (3) -
28 DTMaster (2) -

Four people are voting for me, but someone's (Starbuck's?) doesn't count. So I'm tied at three votes with Iecerint and ortolan. Fate, Nikanor, ortolan and Iecerint are at two. Then:

i've read starbuck's case on mina, and then iso'ed mina. she is really too caution while blatantly rolefishing. if you really think ort and dtm revealing that replacement mechanism is good to the town, you should ask it, and not fear of being accused.

vote: snow_bunny(mina)

Coming from a player like manho, do you think that's early bussing or an opportunistic votehop on a townie?

He then leaves his vote on me until the (abridged) vote count is this:

16 Snow_Bunny ( 1 ) - Starbuck, manho, ooba
17 Nikanor ( 2 ) -
18 Mina ( 2 ) -
24 rajrhcpfreak ( 1 ) - Rampage, DarkStalker
25 CryMeARiver ( 1 ) - Fate, Mina, Plum, SpyreX, totallynotmafia, Nikatar, Chroniepie, raj
26 Iecerint ( 2 ) - Mighty Mighty Mighty Orbots
27 Ortolan ( 9 ) - Faraday, Dramonic

So in other words, he stayed on me until ortolan was at nine--NINE--votes, and my wagon had died. If he'd been my buddy, he'd have jumped on ortolan much earlier. And he wouldn't have sabotaged his distancing like this:

mina's recent posts are really townie. so unvote

i'll read ortolan later.

(Speaking of which, you want to know one of the reasons why I thought LMP was scum even before he was caught in a fake nameclaim?

Let's look at that wagon. The first confirmed scum is raj, at Spot #9. None of the players before him on that wagon really make sense as Mafia at this point.)

Let's not even get started on this:

I think, that as our best course if action, is to vote out/remove Mina. There are many things that could be happening (I, for one, think it's possible that Plum may be right and there may be a secret cult. PF and I talked about this before he went V/LA.) There may be any number of reasons why Mina is in Limbo, but I'd rather not leave anthing to chance (I wanted to say Fate SOOOOO badly..) and have this turn ourt badly for us.

vote: Mina

I'm confirmed. Go me.

And if LynchMePls flips Mafia, I'll be extra-confirmed by this:

25 CryMeARiver ( 1 ) - Fate,

Mina

, Plum, SpyreX, totallynotmafia, Nikatar, Chroniepie, raj
26 Iecerint ( 2 ) - Mighty Mighty Mighty Orbots
27 Ortolan ( 9 ) - Faraday, Dramonic
and this:

mina's recent posts are really townie. so unvote

i'll read ortolan later.

so ort is prodded. i'll wait for another day for him to show up then.

i also agree that CMAR is scummier than ort. CMAR is actively lurking, while ort seems forgotten it. and i don't believe that claim.

vote: Albatross (CMAR)

Something does not fit here. Something does not fit at all. What makes you think ortolan had forgotten about this game, but CMAR is active lurking? I want quotes.

Also, reread manho in ISO. Compare the ratio of his posts about the theory of worshipping to his posts about actual suspects. Oh, and you never gave that Iec ISO read you promised, either.

My buddy senses are tingling.

If LMP flips scum, then I am stealing Fate's Scummy.

Now go away and find another mislynch.

[Mina]

EBWOP:

So I'm tied at three votes with Iecerint and ortolan. Fate, Nikanor, ortolan and Iecerint are at two.

Correct that to "Fate, Nikanor,

CMAR

and

DTMaster

are at two."

- How is the second point regarding questioning Fate even relevant to confirming yourself?
"Let's look at that wagon. The first confirmed scum is raj, at Spot #9. None of the players before him on that wagon really make sense as Mafia at this point."
Fate started the wagon. Contradictory much?

Who said anything about Fate being Mafia?

I don't think he works well as Mafia (possibly as cult, because of his role name), but I felt like asking that question. Fate said he'd focused Parama on N4. I was just checking if he was sure he'd done so. Since he said he's tired of repeating himself, I'll take that as a yes. Yes, I know it sounds like a completely random question. But I just wanted to know.

Fate, don't hog all the credit to yourself. If you can try to confirm yourself for guessing that inHimshallibe is the godfather, I can brag about catching ortolan-manho. Anyway, I nailed him with my first question of the game.

I fell asleep last night befor posting this:

@DTMaster, yeah, either it's two kill immunities or some such for that slot or Faraday's lying (in which case it was "just" one kill immunity) but Faraday's apparently done everything else he said he would since then so I'm inclined to believe him. And the N1 shot would have been a decent one to take. *shrugs*

I think it's possible that the LMP slot is immune to one lynch and one kill. So had we tried to lynch FlipScythe on D2, it would have gone through.

There's lots I want to say to ooba and Katy (explaining my read on Katy v. dramonic and why I'd be utterly shocked if LMP flipped town), but I have to leave for work now. Just one thing:

Waiting for all three explanations but this is my preferred order currently: dram > LMP > Katy.

Why did you want dramonic lynched over LMP at that point of the game? LMP's slot, aside from being horrendously scummy all game, had been caught lying about his role name. Katy had been redirected to a player who ended up dead with a weapon that makes sense for a Goa'ald AND gave a result that supported LMO's. I know why

Tarhalindur

wanted dramonic lynched first, but your reasoning makes no sense.

I think that your behaviour today has made very little sense. But you never so much as consider the possibility that Katy's kill might have actually been redirected (or that the Mafia killed Snow_Bunny by chance). I doubt your town read on Katy would have been that strong (given that I think she's played a great game if she's scum, but hasn't exactly come across as the most obvobvobvtown player in the game). You never seem interested in LMP's slip or Katy's incorrect role cop result. First, you direct attention to dramonic. Then you immediately try to plant the idea that there's a mole in the network.

I actually agree with you that one Mafia vs. one town rolecop makes sense. For the record, another reason I'm suspicious of Katy is that I have reason to believe that at least one scum faction has a rolecop.

Also, where did you get the idea that SB-town means 100% confirmed Mina-scum? If SB flips Mafia, then Katy is confirmed Mafia. Otherwise, any explanation makes sense (Katy is redirected scum, Mina or someone else in the network framed Katy, the scum happened to kill SB by chance). That said, I'm a little worried by how confident you seem to be that dramonic will flip Mafia and Snow_Bunny town (which is actually the only way your mole theory is even

possible

, not something that confirms me as scum).

I don't care if Fate and every single other player in the game is convinced that you're town because you're sooooooooo helpful. I'm probably a total lunatic for suspecting you after your attack of DarkStalker, but your cases have come across to me all game as if you're from Mars. You know who I think has a motivation to spend posts and posts trying to calculate who worships whom and whose worship votes count for how much? Someone with an ability to block or redirect worship votes.

[Mina]

I can't believe we've wiped out most of the Mafia and scum haven't had a single successful nightkill (unless SB was their real choice), and yet it still feels like we're on the verge of losing. I despise cults (particularly in games with little information). And cults that can recruit every night are broken, because each recruit is the equivalent of two night-kills, so a cult can gain majority much more quickly than the Mafia (even if cultists weren't much harder to catch).

Faraday, Albatross also claimed to have redirected me on Night One to manho.

Faraday would be a bad, bad lynch before SB's flip, because if she's Mafia, Faraday is confirmed town. I'll reread N2 of the White Council to see if he had no other choice than to redirect SB to inHim. (If ooba's claim that raj is also a self-redirector is true, Faraday could have easily justified a redirect that way--hell, had I been in the QT, I'd have probably pushed for a raj vig.)

DTMaster, I agree with your plan. Right now, we have one or two Mafia among sixteen players, but not the slightest idea clue about the cult. We should be trying to hit cult today, not Mafia.

Um, Mafia? Any thoughts?

-----------------------------
Am I the only person who thinks that Xite91 would be a horrible choice for a recruit? (EBWOPreview: apparently ooba does, too.)

I mean, this is a slot that was run up to a lynch on D1. I actually decided against investigating him on N1 because he was such a likely vig kill. Although I thought Xite might've been unkillable, today people seem to believe that he has limited immunities. And Xite was playing a horribly scummy game (e.g., saying stuff like "I don't mind being put in limbo because I'm more interested in finding out the mechanics of the game than catching scum.") I don't think DarkStalker's reveal of his passive ability was a lie, assuming there really is a cult. So the cult wouldn't be targeting Mafia.

Hmm...I suppose someone could've believed Katy's "benevolent spirit" story. But still....Personally, I'd have gone for someone in the middle of the pack (neither a likely lynch nor the most obvious nightkill). VasudeVa, ooba, Katy, Albatross, Iecerint (maybe a little less likely, since he was under suspicion), ABR, or Faraday would have been good choices on N2. Maybe I'd risk Mighty Orbots if I thought he would be doc-protected.

Mighty Orbots, what I'd like to know is who you'd have recruited over the past few nights. Can you honestly say that Xite would have been your top choice on N2?

I strongly believe that LynchMePls was Mafia. Speaking of which, another juicy quote I found:

TNM is neutral,

orto is scum but i remember someone has a town result on him so idk

, chrono is town.

Manho is clearly a master of subtlety. That said, this is a point against Katy being Mafia. Hmm. Does anyone think Snow_Bunny might have been targeted by coincidence (just to eliminate the vig)?

Nikanor, I don't think I'm following something. Someone says that he lost all his powers when LMP was killed. And I'm assuming that someone claims to be town. But why would the death of a cultist (and a lowly recruit, not the leader) affect a protown player? Did this happen EXACTLY at the same time as LMP's death (e.g., when the thread opened)?

[Mina]

EBWOP: I meant re: Xite being unkillable that judging by how many people assumed LMP had limited kill immunities, it's likely a cultist might have come up with the same theory. So he wouldn't want to risk recruiting Xite simply because she

might

be immortal. (If she's really some kind of powerless wincon-less immortal freak, then she'd probably be immune to recruitment.) And Xite already used an immunity.

BTW, am I the only one who is totally confused by this game right now?

[Mina]

ooba, do you have town and scum meta?

At first, I thought you were desperately trying to protect Katy (maybe because she was the last surviving member of your faction). But your motivations today don't make a lot of sense for scum. First you push dramonic, then you swing toward me, then toward Faraday...you just cycle from one theory to the next. Instead of considering multiple possibilities, you act with certainty that an elaborate theory is true based on circumstantial evidence, draw it to its conclusion...and then abandon it almost immediately and jump to the next theory when you find something else.

Speaking of which, you never answered my question as to why you preferred a dramonic lynch to a LMP or Katy one.

Going through the player list and working out who can or can't be the cult leader is a great idea that I might just steal.

I think the contradictions you pointed out re: Iecerint could work. And Iecerint's contributions have been really banal today, so I could see him as a cult recruit active lurking. But I see one big hole in your Iecerint theory. Most of the instances of Katy defending Iecerint happened on D1, before she could have been recruited.

And this game is confusing because it's hard to find a cultist when there hasn't been a single cult flip and anyone could have been recruited last night. So if we're looking for cult instead of Mafia, it's pretty much Day One all over again. Personally, I'm insecure about lynching players who haven't done anything overtly scummy just because they have a 3 in 16 (I'm assuming two recruits, one on N2 and one on N4) chance of being cult.

Oh, and to answer this:

1. If it were Mafia who were stripping worship votes why wouldn't they take out me or Fate (if he ain't mafia). After all more worship votes and increases their options on whom to kill?

I can see a reason: to prevent players from using focus abilities on Tarhalindur. So VV can't protect him (although there's still a doc item out there anyway).

Alba, with 16 people alive and 2 mafia left, finding the mafia isn't as big of an issue as finding the cult leader.
Also cults are the worst thing to ever happen to mafia. Bleh.

Seconding both of these points. Especially the secondx1000.

[Mina]

Right now, I'm going out, so I'll answer DTMaster's questions later. But there's something about Fate I'd like to know.

Didn't Mina get jailkept N1 and no one got recruited.

Nope, I was jailkept on N2. Limbo only took effect in the morning.

(True that I could have been redirected toward manho on N1 and failed to recruit him because he was Mafia, though. So I'm not cleared as the cult leader yet.)

So Fate, your argument for not being the cult leader is 1) you're a miller and 2) you're a dayvig. You realize that you can't claim to be a miller, and then try to use that as proof that you can't be the cult leader when we have no way of proving you're a miller, right? Number two is a fair point, though.

Do you have any other arguments for why you might not be the cult leader?

Fate, I know I'm beating you over the head with this, but for the last time, who were your focus targets on N1, N2, and N4? Maybe you should PM Beholder just to be on the safe side.

See, you don't seem to know what it is you've done:

N1: Focus Nikanor because no one explicitly fuckin claimed IM WORHSIPPING GOO in thread so I was left with few options.
N2: Focus Chronopie cause I could count on him to worship Egypt lulz

I looked at my PMs and the day I focused Nikanor was June 20th.

I suppose that was N2...

which means my claim is off. For the life of me I don't remember who I targeted N1 >_>

RE-cLAIM:

N1: Focus ??? Worship Egypt
N2: Focus Nikanor Worship Egypt

LOL YOU THINK YOU GET A SCUMMY FOR BEING STUPID WHEN IVE FOCUSED THE SAME PERSON LIKE THREE NIGHTS IN GAME FULL OF NIGHT ACTIONS IM NOT EVEN PAYING ATTENTION TOO?

So from Nikanor N1, Chronopie N2, to ??? N1 and Nikanor N2, to focusing Parama three nights in a row? Seriously, check with Beholder. PM him. Be 100% sure.

Yes, there is a reason I'm asking you about this.

[Mina]

I agree that all our theorizing is useless when we don't have flips on many of the key players.

But Faraday, wouldn't you like to hear from Fate, first?

[Mina]

EBWOP: replace "all our theorizing" with "a lot of our theorizing."

[Mina]

Fate, I'm still waiting for you to explicitly state your focus actions throughout the game.

[Mina]

Fate, I'm still waiting for you to explicitly state your focus actions throughout the game.

[Mina]

Trust me.

It matters.

Just quote your post with your 100% accurate mod-confirmed night actions, then, because I'm not sure which set is the accurate ones.

[Mina]

Heads up: I'll be L/A over the next few days. I'll be able to check the thread and White Council QT, but not post much content.

Ugh. dramonic's recent posts don't sound like a scum's final words.

But is there time to do anything else but put him out of his misery?

Fate: you STILL haven't claimed your night actions. Claim them already.

Seriously, if you're town, then I am going to dismember you limb from limb after this game is over based on how you've played, unless you justify yourself with the most brilliant gambit ever. Right now, I can see more scum motivations than town motivations for your play.

DTMaster: um...didn't you apparently lose your QT on N1 for breaking your restriction? I personally don't find your posting restriction that interesting, but that one detail is sticking at me.

Papa-Zito head of Mighty Orbots: what made you come around to lynching dramonic today? Weren't you the one pushing Zorblag for a Katy lynch?

[Mina]

Fuck it. Time to end this.

Vote: dramonic

Anyone who honestly believes he'll flip scum at this point is delusional.

Tell me the scum motivations for begging for my own lynch, refusing to co-operate and repeat myself, and all around being a complete dead weight for town.

Tell me.

Tell me the

town

motivation for begging for your own lynch, refusing to co-operate and

repeat yourself

say something you never actually said in the first place because you're too stupid and stubborn to admit you don't know your own posts, and all around being a complete dead weight for the town.

Particularly since you've claimed to be a reviver, so you should be begging for a nightkill instead of a lynch if you're town.

Particularly since you said before that you were

trying to draw a nightkill

as a miller. (Yes, that's right. I know your posts better than you do.)

Particularly since a third-party role like cult leader has a damn good reason for wanting to stay lynchable and claim miller.

Particularly since there's a good chance I can prove you're a liar (or you could prove that someone else was a liar, if you didn't think you're SOOOOO edgy by ignoring questions directed toward you).

[Mina]

Vote: dramonic

[Mina]

A bit too late now. <_<

Tarhalindur, can you confirm DTMaster's story about his vig kills and QT?

Parama, you're in a QT with Fate. What do you think is his alignment? Town, Mafia, or third party? Has he told you anything to make you think there's a method to his madness?

[Mina]

Hi, Katy.

Guess who's screwed tomorrow?

Sheesh. I told people that Katy was the obvious lynch. And what do I get? "Nooooooooo, she's so

helpful

, because back on Day 3 she wrote a post with long paragraphs! And everyone knows that all lynches should be based purely on how many posts someone makes, because only bad players ever draw scum role PMs. And you and Faraday are evil redirectors playing an overly elaborate gambit, because someone as pure and innocent as Katy would never shoot someone. And you must be dramonic's scumbuddy, because no town player could possibly think that Katy was more innocent than dramonic, even though dramonic is acting exactly the same as always."

(Okay, maybe I shouldn't be so snarky, considering how I've played. I never suspected Katy for a reason other than her rolecop before the double-whammy today, and even I'm surprised by the Snow_Bunny flip. That vig claim was a horrible gambit. But still, today was annoying.)

Seriously. Even now, ooba is suggesting that there's a janitor. Maybe giving her the benefit of the doubt before wasn't a terrible idea, but there's way too much evidence against her. Now is when Occam's razor applies. She was redirected to someone else who was killed and flipped Mafia, who was also redirected to someone else who was killed and flipped Mafia.

Also, the scum have a rolecop and it's not me.

So it seems like we have all the Mafia accounted for. And they're spread out evenly among the gods and the men:
Norse: Inhimshallibe
Egyptian: Katy
JC Angels: Snow_Bunny
Old Ones: Dark_Stalker
Men: raj, manho

I'll be very curious to see LMP's flip, because he might have been a Mafia recruit that didn't appear to the census. I think it's telling that none of the Mafia except raj were on his mob.

So now the question is if we leave her alive as a cult-hunting vig or ice her tomorrow.

I'm amazed at how scummy everyone looks when there shouldn't be any scum alive.

Fate, I'm still waiting for you to claim your night actions.

[Mina]

Tar...

Tar

.

And

Faraday

.



That makes me so sad.

Tarhalindur, what is your new win condition? I take it you don't know who your leader is, do you?

@Tarhalindur, when you say that the cult recruits by targeting do you mean that when cult gets targeted they infect the one targeting them?

You know, I'll wait on the answer to this question before sending in my PM.

[Mina]

Almost forgot. Ooba, I worshipped the JCA.

Faraday's "Track Infected" would be damn hard to keep under control, so if I don't use my other top-secret ability (although it's not so top secret considering Faraday already knows about it), he should go today. I'm thinking vig Tar, lynch Faraday, then redirect Katy onto FF...except that doesn't stop VV and Fate from targeting more people. Hmm.

Don't worry, MO. I haven't sent my kill in yet. (I was probably the wrong--or right, depending on how you look at it--person to end up a dayvig, because I deliberate over everything too much.) As for your suggestion...I'm considering it. If we lynch Tarhalindur today, what about:
Faraday
VasudeVa
Fate
{This slot blank} ooba would have been a good choice, but he's a self-redirector. The only other men are you, DTM, and me. And we need Katy's rolecop. It could be someone like Iecerint. He's been acting scummy today (posting lots of IIoA and going all over the place), but if the cult flavour is anti-Gods, he doesn't fit as a leader.

That said, I see one major problem. I have to attach "Zombie" to their names for it to work. And if I hit the cult leader, chances are his name doesn't even start with "Zombie." Vigging "Zombie Harry Dresden" today would be hoping he's a recruit and not a cult leader.

Katy should be redirected tonight to cult suspects like Fate or VV.

=====================
Tarhalindur, there are a few things I'd like to know.

1) Why is Nikanor unrecruitable? Are all Gods immune to the cult?

2) Were you recruited to the cult the moment the thread reopened after LMP's death? Did it happen in stages (e.g., first you lost your worship vote, then you were told you had to target someone, and finally you found out your new win condition)? In that case...sorry for killing LMP. :/

3) So let me get this straight.

Every time you target someone with a night action after being infected, it gives them the virus?

AND you have an ability (except you don't know what it does) that you have to use every night?

4) Are you saying there's a chance you'll revert to your town win condition if you die today?

Really sorry it ended like this, Tar.

====================
...Wait a minute.

WAIT A FUCKING MINUTE.

Fate.

Fate.

Come here, you little worm.

I notice you've been silent about Mighty Orbots' announcement.

Explain why you pretended to be the dayvig. And used it as a reason for why you couldn't be the cult leader, and tried to get VV to protect you.

Also, claim your actions on Nights 1, 2, and 4.

The SECOND reason I wanted you to claim them was to catch you in your own web of lies. Rule 16 means you can't dayvig someone AND focus on the same night, genius. (

Now

who gets the scummy? )

Now that you know that I can kill you at any second, are you feeling slightly more talkative?

[Mina]

ooba, I think that if you're any kind of scum, it'd be cult. I'd be shocked if the last Mafioso was someone other than Katy. But anyway, I was just mentioning four potential cult members (assuming the non-God theory is true).

Iecerint, maybe "IIoA" is the wrong word, but you seem to be making lots of safe comments that just rub me the wrong way. It's mostly gut.

...In hindsight, I probably am too gullible, because yeah, refusing to out the leader but being willing to out another member or two of the cult doesn't make that much sense.

But...but...it's

Tar

!

Okay, or it's

Faraday

, which is also .

That said, Faraday's behaviour has been a bit...erratic over the last couple of days.

Faraday, what possible motive did you have for not claiming in the QT that you were going to track Tar instead of Fate?

Mighty Orbots, why can't Tar be trusted according to the census? (Is it because the cult wouldn't spread as quickly as he says?)

Lottery: Holy Water

[Mina]

Take back what I said about Iecerint being scum (for the moment), because he does seem genuine about wanting to be lynched today.

Circumstantial evidence for why Katy is Mafia:

1) The other five Mafia have been 1 Norse, 1 Judeo-Christian, 1 Great Old One, and 2 men. The only pantheon that has not had a scum flip is the Egyptian one, and Katy is the last Egyptian alive.

2) I have reasons to believe that there is a scum rolecop. Otherwise, a certain element of my role is useless.

Speaking of which, Katy, do you have any abilities that need the target's role name to work (like my dayvig)? I believe there's someone else like me out there.

3) She hasn't done anything blatantly townish. (She was nice and reasonable on D1 but stayed out of the fray and buddied up to me and Iecerint, posted lots of IIoA on D2, and tried to push a CMAR lynch while keeping raj as her number two option on D3. That said, she did a good job of distancing from raj and Dark_Stalker if she's scum.)

Incontrovertible evidence for why she is Mafia:

1) She was redirected to a player who was nightkilled...

2) by a kill flavour that fits Katy's character

3) and who flipped

Mafia

(meaning that player couldn't be the Mafia's kill target)

4) when no town player claimed the shot

5) and Mighty Orbots even wasted his one-shot autopsy on ABR rather than learn more about the scumteam from SB's PM or find out WTF was up with LynchMePls JUST TO BE 100% SURE that no dead town player targeted Snow_Bunny.

6) There was no kill on the night that Katy knew she'd be redirected (and only a moronic Mafioso would withhold kills JUST to frame Katy when there are confirmed town power roles everywhere, he's the last member of his faction among sixteen players, and everyone is more interested in the cult).

7) Even Katy isn't trying to pretend she isn't Mafia or suggest alternate explanations for why Snow_Bunny might have turned up dead.

(EBWOPreview: And Mighty Orbots explained it more succinctly.)

[Mina]

Oh, yeah. Another reason is that on the night Snow_Bunny died, there was no Mafia kill (as all the other kills were accounted for).

By the way...just a reminder. Since someone shot Tar on N1, there's still one kill unaccounted for now that we know SpyreX was the Mafia's target. I don't see why Tar would fakeclaim

losing

his bulletproof protection if he wanted to survive.

Does anyone have information on the Tar shot? (It's too bad we didn't use the autopsy on SB. It might have explained how the Mafia kills work.)

DTMaster, I have questions about the Snowboard:

1) Are the Possession and Oversoul abilities rapid, twilight, or daybreak actions?

2) I'm unfamiliar with Xylbot. What does the Mimic ability do?

3) How many times can you use the abilities in a day? For example, can you switch players in and out of the snowbank an unlimited number of times?

4) How do you activate the Oversoul?

I think I've

mostly

been following the role interactions, although I'm still a bit lost on worships and focus abilities (where did Fate get the idea that VV's focus ability kills his target if he's lynched? Did VV ever claim this?). But I have completely skimmed over everything to do with Possessions and Oversouls. Since I'm an item-less mortal, it's hard for me to care.

I was thinking of either using it to corral all the cult suspects together in a nice little holding pen, or keeping me snowed in (so I can't be infected) and then sending in some poor sucker to join me every time the town chooses a dayvig target. But I'm confused as to how to activate the Oversoul ability.

[Mina]

And something I wanted to post about before....

Fate, are you doing this on purpose?

That's it. I've had enough.

Vote: Fate

Answer. My. Questions.

You know, the ones I've only asked you FIFTEEN TIMES ALREADY, since apparently you're either blind or terrified that answering them honestly will get you lynched.

You keep sidestepping questions, contradicting yourself, behaving as though your fake dayvig claim is an attempt to prove you're not cult and get protection from VV rather than selflessly draw a NK/roleblock, and using your antitown behaviour as a defence while not explaining why it doesn't make

perfect sense

for you to behave this way if you're the cult leader. If you're town, then your games are distracting from the real cultists.

Here, I'll quote THREE of my five zillion posts in which I call you on your bullshit and ask you the same questions over and over again:

...Wait a minute.

WAIT A FUCKING MINUTE.

Fate.

Fate.

Come here, you little worm.

I notice you've been silent about Mighty Orbots' announcement.

Explain why you pretended to be the dayvig. And used it as a reason for why you couldn't be the cult leader, and tried to get VV to protect you.

Also, claim your actions on Nights 1, 2, and 4.

The SECOND reason I wanted you to claim them was to catch you in your own web of lies. Rule 16 means you can't dayvig someone AND focus on the same night, genius. (

Now

who gets the scummy? )

Now that you know that I can kill you at any second, are you feeling slightly more talkative?

Tell me the scum motivations for begging for my own lynch, refusing to co-operate and repeat myself, and all around being a complete dead weight for town.

Tell me.

Tell me the

town

motivation for begging for your own lynch, refusing to co-operate and

repeat yourself

say something you never actually said in the first place because you're too stupid and stubborn to admit you don't know your own posts, and all around being a complete dead weight for the town.

Particularly since you've claimed to be a reviver, so you should be begging for a nightkill instead of a lynch if you're town.

Particularly since you said before that you were

trying to draw a nightkill

as a miller. (Yes, that's right. I know your posts better than you do.)

Particularly since a third-party role like cult leader has a damn good reason for wanting to stay lynchable and claim miller.

Particularly since there's a good chance I can prove you're a liar (or you could prove that someone else was a liar, if you didn't think you're SOOOOO edgy by ignoring questions directed toward you).

So Fate, your argument for not being the cult leader is 1) you're a miller and 2) you're a dayvig. You realize that you can't claim to be a miller, and then try to use that as proof that you can't be the cult leader when we have no way of proving you're a miller, right? Number two is a fair point, though.

Do you have any other arguments for why you might not be the cult leader?

Fate, I know I'm beating you over the head with this, but for the last time, who were your focus targets on N1, N2, and N4? Maybe you should PM Beholder just to be on the safe side.

See, you don't seem to know what it is you've done:

N1: Focus Nikanor because no one explicitly fuckin claimed IM WORHSIPPING GOO in thread so I was left with few options.
N2: Focus Chronopie cause I could count on him to worship Egypt lulz

I looked at my PMs and the day I focused Nikanor was June 20th.

I suppose that was N2...

which means my claim is off. For the life of me I don't remember who I targeted N1 >_>

RE-cLAIM:

N1: Focus ??? Worship Egypt
N2: Focus Nikanor Worship Egypt

LOL YOU THINK YOU GET A SCUMMY FOR BEING STUPID WHEN IVE FOCUSED THE SAME PERSON LIKE THREE NIGHTS IN GAME FULL OF NIGHT ACTIONS IM NOT EVEN PAYING ATTENTION TOO?

So from Nikanor N1, Chronopie N2, to ??? N1 and Nikanor N2, to focusing Parama three nights in a row? Seriously, check with Beholder. PM him. Be 100% sure.

Yes, there is a reason I'm asking you about this.

I want you to answer every single point in all three of these posts.

I'll even organize, summarize, and number each point, just so you don't accidentally miss one:

1) Claim your actions. Because you never did claim them.
2) Also, explain what your Focus ability does.
3) Refute every single one of for my points for why your "I'm useless and harmful to the town, so I can't be scum" argument is bullshit and your motivations make more sense for scum than town.
4) Explain why you said you were trying to draw a nightkill as a miller, but then changed your story to be that you're trying to look lynchable.
5) Explain why you fakeclaimed dayvig and tried to use it to prove you can't be cult.

Mighty Orbots?

Can't we just lynch Tarhalindur so I can dayvig Fate?

I mean...he

might

be the cult leader. And even if he's town, it will give me immense personal satisfaction.

I think I've been responsible and patient with my kills so far. But the temptation to indulge myself this once is strong.

[Mina]

Way to ruin my fun.

(Don't worry, MO--I wasn't entirely serious about that suggestion.)

[Mina]

Faraday...

*twitch*

WHY WOULD YOU GO AHEAD AND REVEAL YOUR TARGET?

You didn't have the slightest idea of where I was going with this?

Fate: I targeted Chronopie...no, actually, *checks PMs*, this dated PM says I targeted Nikanor...no, actually, I might have targeted Parama.
Faraday: Fate tracked Chronopie, because

I just checked the thread for my result and didn't actually track anyone

I mean,

Fate's a liar who realized his Chronopie track would conflict with X fakeclaim or detail and changed his story midway

I mean, that's what my PM says.
Me: Fate, on the off-chance this actually leads somewhere, whom did you target on N1, N2, and N4?
Fate: DURR, who, me? Answer a painfully obvious and simple direct question that would have cleared up a minor inconsistency within fifteen minutes, caught myself in a lie, or possibly proven that Faraday is an evil scumbag trying to fake his tracking result (which would have been really interesting after Tar claimed Faraday's track is infected)? I'm too

worried you have information that will incriminate me if I reveal

cool to be wasting my time on you. LOOK AT HOW WITTY AND REBELLIOUS I AM BECAUSE I'M BEING FLIPPANT AND UNHELPFUL AND ANTITOWN WHILE POSTING IN CAPSLOCK!!!!
Faraday: Psst...Fate. You targeted Chronopie.

Why are you telling Fate whom he targeted? You couldn't have let him claim his own actions or check with the mod?

Mighty Orbots, when you're 100% ready for me to shoot Tarhalindur, say so. I have a sinking feeling it might be a bad idea and just spawn more cultists...but I've kind of stopped thinking independently at this point. I'm just hired muscle.

[Mina]

Yep. If necessary, I can make an effort to be around a computer, or at the very least check my phone, at a certain time.

[Mina]

So obviously, I'm going to hold off on the dayvig for now.

Why is everyone so shocked? I mean, I even told Faraday and MO in the QT last night that I'd noticed a contradiction between Fate's and Faraday's claims.

See, Fate? Now had you answered my question like a normal human being, we'd have figured all this out

on Day Four

. Still, PM Beholder to ask what all three of your actions were, just to be on the safe side. Maybe there's been a mix-up.

Now, I don't suppose you'd have learned your lesson from this, and decided to explain just why you fake-claimed dayvig and why you're trying to look lynchable even though before you'd claimed you were trying to draw a NK, did you?

ooba, are you saying that Fate made up a fake target? Check his ISO on Day Three. He actually mentions being unsure of the dates, and checking his PMs.

I swear, I don't know if you're cult or just crazy, but every time there's a piece of evidence against someone, it's as if you go out of your way to the very opposite conclusion from what that evidence should imply. You did the same thing with Katy.

Mighty Orbots, Faraday is almost certainly not Mafia. I'm confused. I don't think he'd be willing to be lynched if he were the cult leader, but his behaviour today has been very...um,

weird

.

[Mina]

EBWOP: Faraday is almost certainly not Mafia because he redirected

two

kills to scum.

You know what I need to do, when I have more time? (Right now I'm posting this from my phone.) Check ooba's vaunted worship analysis for myself to see which players might not have worship votes now that Tar has confirmed recruits cannot worship. (Now how on Earth could ooba have figured that out before Tar's claim? I don't think there was any evidence to imply this.)

[Mina]

Mighty Orbots, my roleblocks are actually

rapid

actions--meaning I can send them in at any time and block all actions (including twilight and daybreak ones) for the rest of the day-night cycle. Kinetic told me I have to send them all in at the same time, though (meaning I can't scatter them out through the day). I'd assume one block failing doesn't affect the others, but I'll check with Beholder just in case.
======

NEVER, it he only claimed his shit in the wizards QT, and Mina was all like "FULL CLAIM PL0X" instead of "FARADAY CLAIMED A TRACK ON YOU, FULLCLAIM NOW SO WE CAN SEE IF HES LYING"

If she had been explicit about WHY she wanted me to re-claim I would've been much less obtrusive.

Except for all I knew,

you

could be the liar. If you were scum and I'd claimed that Faraday had tracked you, then obviously you'd have claimed your real action. And I also wanted to prove that you weren't the dayvig.

Fate, just to be 100% on the safe side, PM Beholder, and check what actions he says you sent in for nights one to five. Because you actually gave in-depth reasons for why you chose to target Chronopie (he'd claimed Egyptian). How did you remember all this, but not remember that you targeted Nikanor instead?

I don't want us to lynch Faraday only for you to cover your ass afterward by saying, "Whoops. Um...it turns out I actually

did

target Chronopie, but I first targeted Nikanor and then sent in another PM that I deleted from my sentbox afterward."

No one go ahead with a lynch until Fate confirms every single one of his actions with Beholder.

I'm still a little baffled by why Faraday would have faked a tracking result as scum in the first place. Even Tarhalindur (who clearly wants to get Faraday lynched) says that Faraday has a tracking ability (only it's called Track Infected). Maybe to hide his infection target? I really don't know.

[Mina]

No, I didn't get your item.

That said, I can confirm that I also sent a PM that is no longer in my outbox but that still hasn't been replied to. So Beholder might be falling behind.

[Mina]

Mighty Orbots, perhaps I should admit that I was lazy and took my time sending in my PM asking about roleblocks, so Faraday's was sent first. Still, I think the last vote count was before Faraday sent in his item request.

Fate, are you still waiting on Beholder to tell you what your night actions were?

I'm a little worried about Faraday's relative willingness to give up his item and be lynched. That means he's probably not the cult leader. And if passing items causes infection, I am going to be pissed off. I really don't want to join the zombie hordes, damn it!

ooba, what exactly is the benefit of day-vigging Tar when we can block him AND every other potential recruit?

Also, even if he's lying through his teeth to us about not playing toward his win condition...don't you think that he wouldn't have come forward and offered his head on a platter if the cult couldn't gain from it? If you're so sure that Tar is a liar, then if anything, you should

support

the roleblock plan.

Oh, and one more thing.

We have the last Mafia under control. There hasn't been a single successful Mafia nightkill since SpyreX.

WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT A NIGHTKILL IF YOU'RE TOWN?

Seriously. You're a prime cult suspect now. Getting yourself killed will just help us narrow the suspect pool if you're town. You should be happy to take a bullet for someone like Mighty Orbots.

Also, if you focus someone, then doesn't that just mean your target is recruited instead of you?

Something else. Aren't you a self-redirector? And yet, every morning, you make a useless comment like "Great, I wasn't nightkilled tonight!" It just comes across as fake, and not at all what you should be thinking if you're town.

By the way, I haven't forgotten that on Day One, you tried to divert the lynch from ortolan first to me, then to CMAR. (Mind you, I'm still confused by ortolan's slot and why Katy claimed a fake role result if she's a Mafia rolecop and ortolan started the game as cult.)

I really wish we hadn't stripped dramonic of his limbo ability and lynched him. Because his ability would have been useful on ooba.

That said...I have an idea that I'm going to share it with MO in the QT tonight.

[Mina]

ooba, if you're town, then I have

1) Don't focus tonight.

2) Claim exactly whom you focused last night.

3) If you insist on being antitown and stubborn and focusing even though you shouldn't have any motivation to do so unless you're scum, then claim your target in the thread beforehand. The town should have a right to veto your choice.

If you do not follow these three rules, then I can promise you that I will fight to get you lynched tomorrow. Because your behaviour makes no sense from town.

There is no reason whatsoever for you to be coy about your target. No one, town or scum, is going to target you tonight. The cult or Mafia could just target the player you focused directly if they really wanted to get rid of him/her. Keeping your target hidden is useless when the scum already know you're a self-redirector.

[Mina]

Well, the good news is that I got Faraday's item.

The bad news is that apparently, Mighty Orbots was right.

All

of my roleblock names apparently have to be correct for any of them to work. (Odd. I don't think that was implied in my PM. I never would've figured that out on my own.) Of course, I can use only one or two of them at a time if I want to be 100% sure of the names. But all of a sudden, my role is a lot less broken.

Hmm. I need to think if there's a way to take advantage of this. Say, I roleblock Parama AND one-two other players with their role names preceded by "zombie." If Parama gets no result on his track...zombie positively identified. We could also do the opposite: use their claimed names, and if Parama ISN'T blocked, we know there's a zombie within that group.

I'll admit that Faraday giving up his item scares me. He'd have nothing to lose as cult by dying with it. By the way, in the QT on N4, he suggested I try dayvigging Xite in the QT early on N4 (before the rolecop idea) to test her name. I dunno. Could that be distancing? There's definitely something funny about Faraday and his lack of powers, and he seems to have gone off the deep end today...but he had come across as though he was genuinely trying to find the scum in the QT. That said, he never reacted to me pointing out the contradictions between his and Fate's claims.

On the other hand, Fate's reaction doesn't seem at all calculated. He might be an amazing actor, but I don't think scum's first reaction would be, "OMG, I think you're right, and Faraday is a liar!" Even Fate doesn't seem crazy enough to put himself in a 1 v. 1 when he was nowhere near being lynched just for WIFOM. And his mix-up with his actions seems a bit too scattershot to be planned.

Fate, I'll be very interested in hearing what Beholder says your night actions are for the whole
game. If Beholder tells you, "Whoops, I messed up," or "You focused chronopie on N1 and tracking only shows your N1 target on N2 because that's when your power takes effect, then it's Faraday's last chance for respite.

Actually, ask Kinetic that, too. Would someone tracking you on N2 see your N1 or N2 target?

[Mina]

It seems double standards for you to find Vas's play ok but my own focus using condemnable.

Because your focus ability makes it impossible for you to be role-blocked or investigated!

I am to cult what a bulletproof-role is to mafia. As an unrecruitable, I am going to
- Use my focus
- Not claim my target before the particular day\night cycle is over

An apt analogy, because now that you're revealed, your ability is about as useful to the town as a revealed bulletproof whom everyone wants to lynch would be.

And yet, every morning, you make a useless comment like "Great, I wasn't nightkilled tonight!" It just comes across as fake, and not at all what you should be thinking if you're town.

I get nightkilled often. I was thinking I was a good target on N4 since I had got DS lynched and that was the only night in which I could be killed .. Happy I survived ..

The cult or Mafia could just target the player you focused directly if they really wanted to get rid of him/her. Keeping your target hidden is useless when the scum already know you're a self-redirector.

Not if my target is cult\scum - then they'd just end up killing themselves or wasting a cult recruit chance.

Okay, ooba. You're a smart guy. You should have noticed that there's a gaping hole the size of the Grand Canyon in your ordinarily pristine logic.

You are a self-redirector. You have

claimed

self-redirector. The cult know that if they try to target you, they will only recruit some other mysterious person.

If you think that means that they will target you anyway, then you are either braindead, or you are lying scum terrified to reveal your focus target because it's someone you can't justify choosing as town.

Okay, genius. Let's say you guessed right and targeted cult. Awesome! Except the cult KNOWS that a recruitment attempt on you will fail.

Do you think they're any more likely to play the odds and target you in the hopes of MAYBE hitting a random scummy town player than they are to just leave you alone and recruit a strong, trusted player?

Now let's say you targeted town. The cult also thinks your target is a juicy recruit choice. Revealing this doesn't make your target any likelier a recruit. The cult will just directly target whomever they most want instead of taking the convoluted route of targeting you.

Reveal whom you focused last night. Now.

[Mina]

By the way, Mighty Orbots, didn't Tarhalindur claim to have infected Nikanor's QTs? Are you sure you want Nikanor to make new ones and target you?

[Mina]

Can I wait a bit before sending in my kill? I may have a few questions for Tar (for example, where did he get the idea that Nikanor was immune to cult recruitment? Why didn't he go ahead with your suggestion to bite Katy?), and I won't have time until tomorrow evening to reread the thread and try to catch inconsistencies.

Also, what do we do with Faraday if someone claims to have lost their soul?

Ugh. Maybe I just overthink everything too much, but I have a really bad feeling about this. If I lose my soul, way to flush three months of effort into this game down the toilet. I hope we're not playing into Tarhalindur's hands.

Don't we know that Iec and Nik haven't been turned yet? What if I roleblocked them by their real names and Tar by his zombie name...wait a minute. Since Katy's result happened at daybreak, then maybe they'd turn by then. Never mind.

Fate, did Beholder get back to you on your actions?

[Mina]

Goddamn you, Tarhalindur. Great job completely fucking with my head right now.

Last game I'm ever playing with a cult. I knew we should've used the Autopsy on LMP, dammit!

What makes me nervous is that Tar

wants

to be daykilled. And ooba wants Tar to be killed, too. He seems as though he's deliberately changing his story and throwing out wild theories to distract. Which means I'm worried killing zombies is how it spreads. And Faraday would be town (although, you know, it'd be nice if you were the teensiest bit helpful today).

Beholder: can you prod Albatross?

He's the one who claimed he was 90% sure Faraday was town on D2 even though Faraday hadn't done anything townish yet. Interested to see how he'll react to the 1 v. 1 with Fate.

Things I'm waiting on before I send in my kill:

-ooba to claim his focus target, now that I've proven his excuse for hiding it is bull.
-Fate to confirm that Beholder told him he targeted Nikanor on N2.

I want these confirmed before I send in the kill, in case either of their alignments change afterward.

[Mina]

EBWOP: I meant Tar was spreading the wild theories and excuses for his motivations, not ooba. I realize that sentence could be taken either way.

[Mina]

*sigh*

Sorry for putting it off. It's just that my action is irrevocable, so I wanted to make sure we'd considered all the options. I was either the best possible person to end up a dayvig, or the worst.

Tarhalindur is now a dead zombie walking...um, wait. Maybe that wasn't the best metaphor. But anyway, I sent in a PM killing Tarhalindur (Zombie Big Daddy).

Albatross, don't let yourself get modkilled unless you're scum. I don't want to lose my item the moment I finally get one.

Oh, yeah. You never answered why you thought Faraday was so obviously town that you were willing to trust him with an ability that would be devastating had it landed in scum's hands. What in particular gave you such a strong read on him?

And why did you give up your item on N2 in the first place, instead of keeping it and using the redirection ability yourself?

Also, have you noticed that Faraday and Fate are in a 1 v. 1? What do you think of this?

Katy actually brought up a good point in Faraday's defence--he redirected Katy onto Tarhalindur. He was following instructions from Mighty Orbots, though, And I suppose a cult leader might have been willing to sacrifice a zombie. But if he inexplicably changed his track, he could've done the same with the redirect. Hmm.

Somewhat disappointed in ooba's claim--I was hoping for either an obviously scummy target that no cult leader would choose or an obviously townish target.

[Mina]

9. MO/Mina umm, considering that you track VV to death, it's no wonder VV doesn't claim her focus targets. You know already. What's with this standard? That's terrible.

Um...you do realize we were asking

ooba

to claim his focus target, right?

[Mina]

When this game is over, I'm going to lock Zorblag and DTMaster in a room together with a bottle of wine, a box of chocolates, and prophylactics.

Lottery: Spear

Now I've guaranteed that the item isn't wasted on me.

Sorry for not getting back to you before, Mighty Orbots. I think the plan is a great one. In hindsight, I should've asked for your input in the QT. Unfortunately, many of the scummier-looking players in this game also have useful abilities.

I'll use my judgment on whom I select, but should I also choose someone like Nikanor to confirm that all my block went through?

ooba, you didn't focus last night?

Fate, no fair! I want some credit for catching the cult, too! Catching the tracking contradiction was the only useful thing I've done this game. Someone hail me!

Katy, you know, if you're town, then you have more information than any other town-aligned players in the game. You know that the last Mafia is someone other than the obvious choice. So unlike the rest of us tunnel-visioned sheep, your perspective should be clear. Instead of begging us not to lynch you, why don't you work hard to share your reads so that we root out the last evildoer after your death...

...or, you know, you could just confess now and end this game before it reaches two hundred pages.

[Mina]

Thank you, Fate.

Nikanor, why can't you use your action tonight?

If I was scum, I could have daykilled SpyreX, Tarhalindur, DTMaster, or Mighty Orbots from Day One onward because of their names. I can't help being unfairly broken! I was made this way!

I suppose the limiting factor was that zombification changes names? And maybe some scum players have tricky names (for example, Faraday being Harry

Blackstone Copperfield

Dresden and Percy being

Organically Modified Etc.

instead of Odin). And it only works if I survive long enough to make it to massclaim? Also, all four names have to be correct. But I agree that my first reaction to seeing my role PM was WTF (particularly since I didn't realize I was limited to one action per day, and I thought the gods must be even

more

powerful).

But either way, I have reason to believe that I'm not the only person with a use for role names.

No one else vote Katy until we finish the lottery and I settle on my actions.

[Mina]

Katy, those aren't words that inspire confidence in your towniness.

As soon as the lottery is over, I'm going to consider my roleblocks and send them in (although obviously, I won't post my choices in the thread). Then we can lynch Katy once I give the go-ahead.

[Mina]

Okay, I have my roleblock PM written, but I just had a last-minute flash of paranoia.

Guys, if anyone--ANYONE--has a twist to their name they didn't fully claim (e.g., Faraday flipping Harry

Blackstone Copperfield

Dresden), now is the time to mention it.

Like, is Fate John, the First Cylon, or John Cavill, the First Cylon? Is VasudeVa Zelda, or Princess Zelda? (Don't draw any conclusions from the names I've mentioned here. /WIFOM)

[Mina]

EBWOP: because if you're town, then all four of my roleblocks might fail if one is off.

[Mina]

Fuck it.

PM sent in.

Kinetic can check the time stamp to see that it was sent before the hammer vote, and therefore, should block twilight AND daybreak actions.

Hoping this is the last vote of the game:

Vote: Katy

[Mina]

Yay!

Good game, all, and thanks to Kinetic and Haylen for modding. It must have taken a lot of effort to juggle such an intricate set-up.

That said, I'm still not sure I understand all that went on. I've read the Mafia QT, AND the green room, and I still don't get why Parama didn't die on N2, or why VasudeVa was redirected to Snow_Bunny. Something about weird role interactions, and VV being redirected fifty different times...and wait, ooba self-redirected onto Nikanor, and not raj (like he'd claimed)?

So Fate, you

were

trying to draw a nightkill? Sorry for all the vitriol in the thread and the QT, but I'd figured that since you'd claimed reviver in the same breath, your plan was something else. And I'm possessive over my role, dammit. Then your refusal to answer questions set off my paranoia even more....

Someone post the Fate-Parama QT, please.

Incidentally, did

everyone

figure out I was the dayvig before MO's reveal? I know ooba said something like "We all know who the dayvig is, Fate, and it isn't you."

And seconding that MO deserves a Scummy nomination for his performance.

And lastly, I think Kinetic's decision on the cult was the right one. It sucks for Tarhalindur to have his win condition changed after putting in so much effort to help the town, but playing against it wasn't fair to Faraday, LMP, and Plum. This also tarnished our victory, since I think we were on the verge of catching the cult anyway. I'd have liked to know what would have happened had Tar put up a fight.