Left 4 Dead Mafia - Day 6?

[Charlie]

/confirm

Hi bob.

[Charlie]

vote: almightybob

I felt like adding fuel to the fire.

---

Hmm... are we certain that they ARE any town PRs in this zombie infested wasteland? Coz I get the feeling that items are there to give a powerless town some leverage.

If a townie gets an item, they become a PR for the entire game (unless they are killed before using their new ability).
If scum gets an item, then nothing changes.

And since the mod is the AI Director, I get the feeling that he'll try to "balance" things out like in the real game
Of course that is purely speculation on my behalf.

[Charlie]

@Mod- Can you list a sample town PM?

unvote, vote: DeathNote

Why would you need to see one?

In the scenario in your mind does this mean we'll have to wait another whole day for the item?
Charlie what is your experience with either part of the AI director?

Hydra, I have no idea what the scenario is going to be like. We'll find out more after the first item grab and/or after D1.

I'm not sure what do you mean by "either part of the AI director" but I shall attempt to answer. How's this:
Sometimes, the AI Director can be very mean. He only gives me health packs when all 4 of us survivors are limping our way to the safe house, in red health. Then everyone scrambles to get the lone health pack with no co-operation whatsoever. It usually ends in disaster when a tank appears and starts to beat us to a pulp.

Outside of Left 4 Dead universe, I have no experience with any AI Director; in mafia or otherwise.

unvote, vote:Infrin

Im preeeety confident about this vote. I want to sit on why for now. Everyone should look at the way he responded to Charlie very closely.

How about quotes, o wise one?

Oh nevermind, I see what you did there at #91.

lol Ifrinn's 69.

I'm sure that my mind = blown

Charlie: What is the basis for your comment/question about town power roles? I don't remember it being addressed.

My opening statement to begin my side of the discussion? As evidenced by our hydra's reaction?

Combined with Charlie's comments about a lack of PR's (At least until we see his reasoning/justification)

It's just a caution. Covering more possibilities. If there are town PR's, obviously they should not reveal it (at least not now) i.e. I'm NOT rolefishing. Doing so would just make them a dumdum.

Come on Charlie, talk to us.

I'd be happy to, Doc!

[Charlie]

Lots of stuff to respond to. I'll get to it in about 10 hours time.

For now, I like Bob's idea. Yep, I have played L4D & L4D2 and that's the reason why I signed up for this. And yep, I believe in this situation setup speculation WOULD be fruitful discussion.

A new topic: soft-claiming. Anybody, opinions on this? (when to do it, possibilities of scum fake-claiming survivor roles) I would like Bob to respond to this though, making good sense so far.

[Charlie]

@all: do me a favour and iso bv310...what there ISN'T scummy?

I don't see anything blatantly scummy. Care to share what you found?

Charlie: Thoughts on Ifrin?

Suspicious of our hydra at the moment. Vote still stays on DeathNote though.

@Charlie. So your judging our dear mod on the persona of the AI Director?! lol. Right. Well my knowledge on L4D is exceedingly limited. And im not asking my ex for tips and tricks any time soon. But i still dont see how you can assume off the bat we are all vanilla's. But as we are agreed upon, time will tell. However imho there was no need to ask "ARE we sure there are any PR in this zombie infected wasteland" and that just set alarm bells in my ears. But i am only one half of a being so unless there is something i consider potentially solid i like to refrain my vote.

Harsh. And yet, no one else has expressed agreement with you on this matter. You've either misunderstood my statement or are attacking me wildly. Or both.

I might be missing something but my take on the Deathnote lynch is because he requested a sample PM...

My thinking is that if he infact was scum why not PM the MOD and simply ask for it in private? Instead he asks for it where everyone can see...

Deathnote voters, what do you think of this?

I'm thinking, "Where is his vote?"

Regarding the ifrin, thing, please look Ifrins 69 again but try this time. Basically this request to all of you.

Yeah, my mind is still blown at that.

Scenario 2: DN is stupid scum. He wants a Town PM for future fakeclaims, so asks for one. He does so publicly because he does not think through the implications of this request.

Scenario 2 is the only one that follows through.

And I might add, DN being the first to rush the boomer bile fits as scummy.

I have a logical explanation for asking for a town sample PM. I am surprised that it got me as many votes as it did, especially since it was me who asked for it.

My role said "survivor" in it so naturally I was curious as if that meant I was a survivor who's goal was to make it to the end of the game alive or if that was the mods way of saying V.T. So I asked for a town sample PM to see how my role compared. Sure enough, the role says survivor thus confirming that I am indeed town.

Then why the heck did you wait so long to answer this? And with the number of people asking you the same question (why did you ask for a sample), I'd expect some matter of urgency in this matter.

So you know - the Boomer Bile that is currently up for grabs is a one-use item in the game.

Um hmm. All items listed in the first post are one use in the real game, with the exception of the flashlight, of course. Shotgun is a primary weapon and technically not an item.

[Charlie]

Also deathnote is town. We should all be voting Inhim now.

Confidence level?

[Charlie]

Hey Tarhalindur. You must be the dude who made the set of "standard scumtells" found in the wiki. I suppose it is a kind of a privilege to play mafia with you

Anyway, I'm kinda disappointed that you attacked me based on my first post. I asked myself after posting that, :"Is this scummy?" and I found myself answering "No." I'm learning new stuff as I play! (For the record this is my fourth game of online mafia, first ever non-newbie game)

[Charlie]

Ruh?

Rut's rhat Rhaggy? A Scooby Snack?

I could also go for Charlie's head. Who the hell, as town, asks "is this scummy"? after reading a post?

You check your own posts to see if they're scummy? Afraid you'll let something slip?

Note to self: don't post that I check my own post for scuminess.

[Charlie]

@Charlie: Why did you feel it necessary to state that you reread your posts for scumminess, do you/have you always done that?

I initially thought it was harmless; now I learned from this game that it is totally unnecessary to say so. I never made that statement before, this is/was my first time.

I don't really get how Glork came to the conclusion that "I've clamined vanilla or anti-town" part. Mostly on the anti-town part. Aside from that, I think his long post is decent.

Unvote

[Charlie]

Brilliant deduction there, Glork. Now how about explaining the anti-town part?

[Charlie]

Better get it quick? Okay...

Grab: flashlight

[Charlie]

Almightybob, that's twice now you mentioned the Inverse Hanlon's Razor. I'm curious, how effective is this method when you use it? Success rate?

[Charlie]

Hm, somewhat slow moving here...
Some questions:

DeathNote, who do you think are scum at this point?
Starbuck, what about an analysis of the rest and myself?
Anon, what's your confidence level when you placed your vote?

[Charlie]

I'll be attending a karate course and won't be posting for about 72 hours. I hope none of you people will lynch me for that.

[Charlie]

Okay! I'm a bit confused because there are lots of people in the game, and this being my first game with many people in it I'll require more processing time. Till then I'm not voting, but on a side note I do like a BB gun with some tear gas to play with.

[Charlie]

What a beautiful vote count! I'm the only one not voting.

I promise a read through in 3-4 hours time, and a post with actual content. For now, I'm happy just looking at the deadline moved to April Fool's Day.

[Charlie]

I have things to say:

jmj3000, Pomegranate's suggestion at post 404 is good. Clean up your case first before presenting it, otherwise nobody will buy it.

@jmj: Then state what you agree with or disagree with for each wagon. If you're "not sure", then say what is holding you back from voting. As is, we got nothing to look at for accurately gauging your read on the game.

And this too, jmj3000.

@early DN wagon (Izzy, AMB, Infrinn, bv, thatguy, charlie) - Would you have wanted a DN quicklynch if you could of had one?

No, a quicklynch is never good? Discussion is good.

bv310, grabbing 2 items successfully does not help town. You're guranteed to tie up one item.

Unofficial item grabs list, for reference:
Boomer Bile: DeathNote, bv310, DocPotter, almightybob
Flashlight: Starbuck, Glork, DizzyIzzyB13, Charlie
Dual pistols: thatguy00, Furry, bv310, jmj3000

If the night goes like I plan, then I don't need to worry about an NK. Unless I'm way off base with how this Bile works. Even if I fail, then at least I'm not hurting the town.

Hmm... you claimed to have that item. You should now know what that item does and thus how it works. You can plan around that, why do you need to say this ?

Glork, please may I have your opinions on Starbuck?

thatguy00, opinions on the two wagons please?

[Charlie]

I agree on the mass nameclaim. Claiming as one of the core survivors (8 in total) holds much more water than claiming a vague supporting character. Opinions?

[Charlie]

Dang. It is never that simple huh?

[Charlie]

How would you execute your plan? Throw dice?

[Charlie]

If you want to expand this to another tier we have a quoted PM. If he is scum and it was a fakeclaim, scum just burned one. In some games scum will get fewer then members of the team, so they would have just burned one.

If we work along the same line of this logic, a mass name claim would be beneficial to town, as there is a chance that scum would have to fabricate a claim. Not an easy task I assure you.
But you're opposed to a mass nameclaim, hm?

On a slightly related note, did anyone notice the completed Portal Mafia game next door? The 3 scum (cores) were all given the same safeclaim (cubes). That's hilarious! But then again it is also sad. But then again it's hilarious!

Regarding jmj3000's claim, I don't trust that racecar driver. He might be infected!

[Charlie]

@jmj3000:Oh that's an easy one!

Because in L4D and L4D2, there are only so many characters to create flavour from. Glork mentioned it, do you need me to dig up the post? He said something like 15 characters and 2-3 vague ones. I confirm this! (as an L4D2 player)

[Charlie]

On the subject, Little Golden Book Mafia had both scum identified by two different players based on the mass claim ... and that was with a mod provided safe claim.

I laughed out loud when I was done reading that thread. Especially at the google search part, when people were researching characters.

Anyway, I can now see quite clearly the town benefits of a mass name claim. Can someone (not necessarily Furry) please point out to me what are the possible disadvantages?

Well what they were supposed to do what have one use the claim and the others claim VT... but whatever. You notice that the sample has no name, just survivor. Scum at very least (I would bet more) have safeclaims.

Hey, you're wrong. First part is not applicable (due to setup).
The sample on post 1 did have a "role name (in bold), Survivor (in green) there. Anyhoo, I'm saying that we can use knowledge of the theme to town's advantage. Theme games go by "knowledge of the theme is not necessary, but may be useful", am I correct?

Sorry, jmj is town. I can not stress how serious I am about this enough. I would only rather not lynch about five players more.

I'm considering. That's why I'm not voting.

If people are generally opposed to the idea of thematic discussion, then I'll stop.

Mod: Are there any problems with discussing completed games? I hope not

[Charlie]

I would like to vote for the infected!
Who is infected?

[Charlie]

I want to say that this...

<snip>JMJ as scum would have voted for Bob, no questions asked. Instead, he went after someone with virtually no heat on him -- Charlie. This tells me that JMJ is following his suspicions, not trying to merely save his own ass.

...is strange, because I thought that was what he wanted us to think.

On a more serious matter: I support an Amished lynch today! Based on vote pattern.

vote: Amished

And if anybody is going to claim their role, I would appreciate a full role claim with flavour and everything. Better yet, quote the role PM coz it is allowed.

And after some more thinking... I really don't trust that racecar driver!

[Charlie]

Oh snap. That mean's I'll be in snoozeland when the deadline hits. Woo different timezones!

Guys, vote Amished?

[Charlie]

I think DocPotter is suspicious.

I'm interested in a name claim as I believe it would be more helpful to town than to scum. For the record, Socrates was Keith and he as a jack of all trades fits perfectly into the L4D theme. I mean he survived drowning, traffic accidents and lawnmower blades just to name a few! I'm going to miss him most.

Sad, now Louis shall never get his pills.

almightybob, what do you think?

[Charlie]

Sounds correct, bv310. The third item was the dual pistols.

@Amished: I'm suggesting a name claim, not a role claim. People can quote their role PM's minus their power roles, if any. We'll filter out the odd ones. What do you think?

[Charlie]

WHY are people talking about the duel pistols being a possible item to turn a Survivor into a vig? This is incredibly silly!

There are tons of other guns in the game universe. Limiting it to this mafia theme, listed in the first post by The AI Director there is a shotgun. THAT is more probable as a power item to allow Survivors to kill other people.

It is kinda weird, I don't remember the boomer bile, dual pistols, pain pills and molotov being in the list earlier... Doesn't matter.

Anyway, just to present some facts about dual pistols in the game: It is considered a sort of "upgrade" in L4D, where Survivors get double firepower and it can be used when you're incapacitated. In L4D 2, same thing applies with standard pistols in addition to the choice to swap with a melee weapon. So how would one interpret what can this weapon do? There are simply too many. Very unlikely we are able to guess and this means that the only one who knows for sure what it does is the person who grabbed it successfully.

Regardless of his alignment, bv310 is telling the truth about what the boomer bile does. See thispost by The AI Director.

Charlie, name claiming gives the scum information about roles as you demonstrated with Socrates' role.

Interpretation is exceeding difficult. There are too many posibilities. Allow me to demonstrate with Socrates's role as Keith.
"I ever tell you guys about the time my buddy Keith rode the tunnel of love and nearly drowned in it?"
"I ever tell you guys about the time my buddy Keith and I rode lawnmowers?"

Keith is a good buddy of Ellis. They may be masons.
Keith is described as one who took a lot of abuse and punishment. He may be a tough person to kill. He may be a survivor with a disadvantage, having been weakened with so much past abuse.
Keith made it through a lot of crap (like horrific accidents, drowning, etc.) but learnt to survive through it. He may be a jack of all trades.

See what I did there? Scum can only vaguely guess at a role with name claims. Anyway, with Glork silenced, I think I'm the only one who is keen on a name claim. Everyone else does not seem interested. Can we please discuss this?

And I would like to mention this again: I tend to trust the claim more if it were one with one of the 8 main survivors. I guess the logic behind this is survivors should really be roled as survivors and not be used as a fakeclaim.

[Charlie]

Why me specifically?

Because I know that you know both games (online mafia & L4D2) well. This means that you-town would provide valuable input and you-scum would presumably provide misdirection.

almightybob, it doesn't make sense that scum would fake claim what the item does. With a little logical thinking anyone can roughly tell what the item does; what is more believable than others. For example, you once mentioned that one of the probable effect of the boomer bile is a roleblock, since it blinds. This scenario is far fetched if compared to a more likely effect of a redirect.

In your "nameclaims won't out Town PRs" example scenario, you list 3 different Town PRs that Keith could be. Even if a nameclaim doesn't tell the scum exactly what PR a player has, it would still lead them to the likely PRs to target for their kills.

Did you even think about the possibility of Keith being a plain Survivor when you typed that out?

I think it's likely that at least one of the 8 Survivors is a fakeclaim.

Well, I am of the opinion that AT MOST one survivor is a fakeclaim. If all 8 claimed, we can discuss stuff, match behaviour with claim, rule out probable Survivors and what is left is likely scum (in addition to those who did not claim at all)

Yeah it is kinda speculation on my part. Still, I'm sticking to it.
So almightybob does not seem too interested in a nameclaim, Furry is opposed to it and bv310 is okay with it.

Anyway, did anyone else notice thatguy00 is behaving like "if there is an item, I'm gonna grab it and I could not care less about contributing to the discussion" lately?

And another thing: Whoever is still talking stuff along the lines of "maybe scum destroying items is a night action" please please stop. The correct assumption is scum destroy items AS SOON AS they manage to grab it. I stand by this 100%.

[Charlie]

Aw come on bob!!!

Look at the list of items in The AI Director's first post:

flashlight, medkit, pipe bomb, shotgun, boomer bile, dual pistols, pain pills, molotov, and defibrillator. All of these items have pro-town benefits.

Using a little logic, which is MOST likely a cop investigation item? I'd say the flashlight. Boomer bile as a cop investigation is far fetched. I know you're covering all the bases and I might be wrong, but you're sacrificing simple logic for total coverage of all the possibilities. It is like you're saying everything about a theme game is super complex; I say it is much simpler than it appears to be. Your scenario is invalid.

Here, let me ask you: what do you think the medkit does? Are you going to say something like "oh it is possible that it can bring a dead player back to life since it heals players"?

Anyway, I'm not saying a nameclaim would definitely lead scum to every PR. But it could well help narrow the field.

I wonder if scum is REALLY that good to narrow the field of PR's based on a nameclaim. IMHO, it only serves to confuse scum who the PR's are. That would be a pro-town benefit.
Along the same line of thought, a nameclaim could help town identify confirmed townies i.e. the 8 core survivors but as already mentioned, possible fakeclaims setup. Nevertheless, I'm pushing for it. A lynch on a supporting cast claim carries more weight.

@bv310: Was the bile a one-shot item?

[Charlie]

I don't see it, sorry.

[Charlie]

The way I see it, the player who gets the item, if it is a one-shot item, keeps that one-shot ability for the remainder of the game.

And without wanting to get sucked into a pointless (and potentially scum-benefiting) item speculation debate<snip>

Yeah I've thought of that too. But enough about the items. I use common logic > game logic to arrive at an assumption to what the items does.

What do you mean "really that good"? All it would require is flavour knowledge, not skill at Mafia.

You've understood my point. Knowledge of flavour can tip the balance of the game in favour of town. If it is indeed true that all main survivors are vanilla, then if all 8 claimed we'll be left with PR's and scum. Risk/benefits tradeoffs are subjective.

For the record bob, for someone who has good flavour knowledge, you seem to be suppressing discussion about it i.e. overly cautious about it:

Therefore I do not want a mass nameclaim, because if somebody on the scum team has equal flavour knowledge to me, they may be capable of doing the same.

[Charlie]

There is another way a nameclaim can help town: Spotting a fake-claim.

Best case senario for town: Scum were given limited fake-claims; when used up, we'll see the remaining scum try to fabricate one.
Good case senario: All fake-claims have some flavour to suggest character may have been infected.
OK case senario: Some fake-claims have some flavour to suggest character may have been infected.
Worst case senario for town: Fake-claims are totally random, mixed in all characters.

Anyway, can I summarise the nameclaim suggestion? It is like a double-edged blade -- it will help town and hurt town at the same time.

@bv310: Okay, so it is a one-shot... why didn't you mentioned it earlier when you told us what it does?

[Charlie]

all the speculation is making me suspicious.

Contribute then, Deathnote.

Charlie, how do you know this for a fact? How do YOU know that scum destroy items as soon as they grab them? Also, why are you pushing so hard for a nameclaim when everyone has already showed you how bad it is for town? I found you scummy on D1, and you haven't done anything to dissuade me from that feeling. In fact, you have just heaped more scummy feelings on top of my original ones. You constantly pushing for a nameclaim through 2 game days, even when people have shown you how it would hurt town, constantly specualtiong when it has been shown to you how it will hurt town, you have stated you reread your posts to make sure they don't seem scummy, and general anti-town behaivor.

Natural assumption upon reading the rules. And your post has redundancy in it; please check it before posting okay?

Bob, the language the mods used strongly suggests the existence of items which aren't one-shot, but it doesn't rule out one-shot items in any way. I suspect we have both types of item.

Yep, agreed. It is a language thing: like you're saying that an orange is a fruit and I saying it is fruitilicious.

Hmm. Bob, I stand by my stance. A double-edged blade.
A nameclaim may help scum find the PRs, same goes for town.
Anyway, I don't see it as a broken setup if indeed the flavour fits. Seems like a poor argument, but I'm going with "hey maybe the mods are messing with us, that's what they want us to think".

I'm keeping tabs on who said they were okay and not okay with a nameclaim:
myself, bv310, thatguy00 say something along the line of OK
almightybob, Furry, Amished, dramonic say something along the line of NO
Steam-Powered Shovel, Starbuck say something along the line of NOT HELPFUL

By that count it is like 3 vs. 4 or 3 vs. 6 oh my goodness.
I still want to argue about it, so...

Level ground. Information put on the table can be utilized by either town or scum to their advantage. It depends on skill and some luck (Don't factor out luck in mafia games). This being a large theme game, townies will have to trust someone to better your chances of winning (am I making sense here?). As such, if I never talked so much about nameclaiming my top suspect is still Amished based on yesterday's wagon. If you're a main survivor claim, because I'll make the assumption that all 8 core survivors are confirmed town. Actually, I'm more in favour of pushing claims for only the 8 core survivors. A partial claim to narrow the suspect pool and whatnot.

Aaand that's it from me. I'm done.

[Charlie]

Wrong witch. The witch which is in L4D will tear you apart when aggravated.

I'm done with my argument. I'll be taking supporters anytime! I agree that activity is low... we need to pick up the pace a bit. Vote where I left it at D1:

Vote: Amished

[Charlie]

Amished vote patterns:

Random vote on almightybob
Vote on Iffrin
Vote on thatguy00
Vote on jmj3000
Vote on thatguy00

They are all "easy" lynch targets in my POV. Excluding the random vote, of course. Anyway, there are other reasons Amished is behaving suspiciously. The reasons for the votes does not seem genuine as he picks out parts of people's post as scummy only.

@dramonic: I'll hear you out on a Starbuck case, if you're willing to present it.

[Charlie]

Amished, you are not the only guy pushing thatguy00 right now; and of course nobody you've attacked has gotten lynched because it is only D2. Your argument is invalid <insert picture of cat, watermelon and lake here>.

With Tarhalindur sorta supporting a nameclaim, it looks like 4 vs. 4 or 4 vs. 6 OH MY GOODNESS

If this number hits (8/8+) vs. xx I will personally kick it off.

Anyway, Tarhalindur's quick analysis has a ton of info; I don't know what more he could fit in if he made a detailed one. Hope you stay in the game and not get prodded to replacement. He is saying there is scum somewhere among those who opposed the nameclaim and that would be: almightybob, Furry, Amished, dramonic, STS, Starbuck.

[Charlie]

Quite some time ago and I forgot, but it isn't hard to dig up. It's right here. Notice I did not say you're opposed to it in #855, just that you think it is not helpful in that post, so you've got to read my interpretation of Tarhalindur's intention in context.

[Charlie]

No, I'm not desperate. I apologize if my interpretation is dead wrong (although, your stance on the matter would be appreciated). Do you think you possess a healthy amonut of paranoia?

[Charlie]

EBWOP: Oh wait I think there is a misunderstanding: I did not say what you posted was unhelpful. I meant that I thought that you thought a nameclaim was unhelpful. Again, context!

[Charlie]

I think I'll go to a brick wall now.

[Charlie]

Interesting list of FOS-es there, crypto. Better than what Iffrin contributed.

[Charlie]

We don't seem to be progressing much lately. We need the quiet ones to speak up now, and more input from others.

DocPotter specifically is not saying anything

[Charlie]

Grab: Shotgun

Guns are dangerous.

[Charlie]

Interesting.

[Charlie]

And that makes thatguy00 at L-2.

Furry, tell us why dram is a good lynch again peas?

[Charlie]

Here is a summary of item grabs! (Not guranteed to be 100% accurate)

D1 ==> [3 items]
Boomer Bile: DeathNote, bv310, DocPotter (now crypto), almightybob ==> bv310 claimed he got the item, it "Changes X's target to Y" and he did not use it N1
Flashlight: Starbuck,

Glork

, DizzyIzzyB13, Charlie
Dual pistols: thatguy00, Furry, bv310, jmj3000

D2 ==> [2 items so far]
Medkit: Steam-Powered Shovel, thatguy00, dramonic, jmj3000,

Furry

(Me thinks 5th grab counts as a miss)
Shotgun: jmj3000, Charlie,

Furry

(he posted "vote shotgun" instead of "grab shotgun", so idk if it counts), Pomegranate, crypto

Perhaps I'm the one known for starting the whole nameclaim idea. Now, I'm less sure that it would be benificial for town since there has been major opposition towards it. Still, my stance stays: I'm in favour of it.

Here is a summary of what people think about the nameclaim idea! (Not guranteed to be 100% accurate)

(4) Charlie, bv310, thatguy00, Taharlindur are in support/slightly in favour of it.
(7) almightybob, Furry, Amished, dramonic, Steam-Powered Shovel, DizzyIzzyB13, jmj3000 are against/slightly not in favour of it.

(5) I either do not know the opinions of the rest or they have not said anything to indicate a stance: DeathNote, ReaperCharlie, crypto, Pomegranate, Starbuck.

And thatguy00 is now at L-3 (I got it right this time, yes I did mistakenly say he was at L-2 when he was in fact at L-3 in my previous post)

[Charlie]

The argument about the images used in role PMs are perhaps the second most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on this site (game-wise). The first would be the quoted url where the image came from.

bv310, you earlier claimed that you picked up a one-shot redirect Boomer bile. Since you're still alive and well today, why don't you tell us what did you do with it?

almightybob, don't you think you've made a redundant post in #1094?

ReaperCharlie, do you often play in large theme games?

Starbuck, why should we believe you when you said the flashlight is a one-shot item?

I'm up for a dramonic lynch today!

vote: dramonic

[Charlie]

The simple answer is because I believe him to be infected. The non ambush kind of infected.

[Charlie]

Doh, Starbuck, I'm very confident that you've confused this thread with some other again. I'm less confident that you're going to say you're tired and stuff.

Anyway, notice that Furry flipped Bill, so I still want a name claim.

[Charlie]

Can we get a dramonic or Amished or ReaperCharlie lynch today?

[Charlie]

Why?

Any reason why the three of us specifically? I fail to see the link.

Coz people who suspected Amished & dramonic ended up dead. ReaperCharlie is more of a gut feeling, but I'm not counting on it. I believe Starbuck and her claim that jmj3000 is town.

Well, seeing as Defibrillator is probably a doc protect, doctor should be on our clear. That is JMJ right?

How on earth did you come to such an implausible conclusion? What is a medkit used for?

[Charlie]

More voting people please? We need to move on I think.

Also, note that both Starbuck and DizzyIzzyB13 could be telling the truth about their roles. If so then who would be the next most person likely to be infected?

[Charlie]

Another vital question to the floor: How often in a large game (themed or otherwise) is there a power role (one shot, most likely) that can bring dead players back to life?

[Charlie]

Forgive me if I sound naive, but I'm using the simplest explanation: Amished is scum and killed people who suspected him.

Along the same chain of thought, this also explains why I'm pushing so hard for a nameclaim even though I'm the minority (perhaps the only one, heh). On a slightly related note, the mafia theme game with the Greek letters has ended very recently, and the setup revealed that thematic flavor did match scummy roles and power roles. So... anybody wants to nameclaim? Francis, Zoey, Nick, Ellis, Coach, Rochelle?

[Charlie]

Could it be possible that the reason is to catch scum? Seriously, look at what you just said. And for the record, you failed to vote properly.

[Charlie]

ReaperCharlie, I'm pretty sure that you'll find one quite recently made by almightybob. I've also made one further back. Contents differ. Just search posts made by us in newest to oldest if you're that lazy.

[Charlie]

Just a quick skim today.

Uh bob, you don't sound convincing at all in #1212. It is hard to describe... it is like reading a politician post good stuff about reducing taxes and advocating green technology.

Perhaps something rings a bell...like you using "never attribute to stupidity what can be attributed to malice"? Reverse someguy's razor?

[Charlie]

Erm, not really bob. The key word in that analogy is politician. They can't be trusted with what they say. Anyway, here goes:

NK analysis is sufficiently uncommon that scum are better off just killing who they want. Taking out someone who suspects you more than compensates for the added suspicion from other players.

Not when everyone then goes "Oh but dead Townie X suspected living scum Y! That's probably why they were NKed! Lynch lynch lynch".

Maybe I would agree with you in a smaller game. I feel this theory does not apply at this stage due to a large number of players still alive.

Yep, I'll use Occam's Razor here! Big game, scum just kills of those who suspects them, does not need to counter points made against the accuser.

And, I'm kinda decided. I'll self-participate in a nameclaim in my next few posts.

[Charlie]

Okay, bob. You win. Now tell me who is infected in this game.

I've already claimed by breadcrumbing my role. Yeah, pretty lame, but it is there.

[Charlie]

Grab: Pain Pills

My nameclaim is Ellis.

[Charlie]

EBWOP: Ninja'd by Dizzy.

[Charlie]

Nah, Amished did it right. Dizzy used a deadly obvious variation. Check the Modnote above.

[Charlie]

unvote
vote: Amished
FoS: almightybob

Reasons already stated.

[Charlie]

Also: SPS: You have no case. You've now like hypnotized Charlie into thinking the same thing as you. You're clearly scum trying to push something that you really have no responsibility for.

Hey! My mind is my own.

[Charlie]

Hmm. If DizzyIzzyB13's plan were to work, we need to name at least 3 candidates to receive the pills.

[Charlie]

Grab: Molotov

[Charlie]

You don't think that they are both town, bob?

[Charlie]

Guys! Don't waste another day with a no-lynch! Please decide now.

[Charlie]

Issue no. 1:

You said the pills does the opposite of the dual-pistols; i.e. it adds one extra vote required to lynch a player. How about this:

Target (Give) the pills to the most scummy player. Run a majority vote on targeted player. With 11 players, it takes 6 to lynch. If we lynch target at 6, we have a proven liar and we do not "waste" a lynch. If we lynch at 7, we have a confirmed survivor, we also didn't "waste" todays lynch. In addition, we have an extra voter to analyze on the wagon.

The assumption made in the above senario is we have 7 people willing to vote. With that, I suggest you target Amished.

Issue no. 2:
Mod, are you SURE that deadline is 3 DAYS from the last post, or did you accidentally mess up?

Issue no. 3:

(Some setup speculation here) With a dead JOAT and this game's unique item grabbing system, I conclude that the shotgun most probably fell into townie hands with the shooting of the church guy. The people who tried to grabbed it were jmj3000, myself, Pomegranate replaced by SaintKerrigan, and crypto. One of the above can confirm him/herself as town if there are no counterclaims of the shotgun.

I did not get the shotgun.

And,

vote: Amished

just in case the day really IS 3 days long. No more of this no-lynching business.

[Charlie]

Not everything has to make sense. My suspects include Amished, dramonic and almightybob. I'd rather have the pills given to Amished, but I guess it is too late for that now.

unvote
vote: dramonic

[Charlie]

lol @ simulpost

[Charlie]

Good. We have a confirmed. Now let's lynch Amished.

unvote
vote: Amished

[Charlie]

Oh noes!

unvote
vote: Amished

[Charlie]

I didn't notice this earlier and failed to address it:

If we give scum the pills, we put them at lynch-1 and then hammer. If the hammer kills them, they're scum (because items are destroyed when scum get them).

I'm not sure if this true. Dizzy, can you please confirm the validity of the above quote?

[Charlie]

We can also confirm another Townie.
Somebody shot SPS as well as one of the scum teams killing him, so if only one person claims to have done it, they must be Town - presumably they used the shotgun. If a scum counterclaims, we lynch them both for a guaranteed scum lynch.

Yes, I've pointed that out already!

So, can we please lynch either Amished, dramonic, or almightybob now?

[Charlie]

SaintKerrigan, we can't make that assumption. You're viewing the pills as an item still; I'm thinking it is more of an effect of the item. Dizzy should be able to clear things up. Or the mod.

[Charlie]

Fail.

[Charlie]

Interesting.

unvote
vote: ReaperCharlie

You're now at L-1.

[Charlie]

I trust Starbuck to be town. One who possesses a healthy amount of paranoia, which is a good thing at that. Almightybob, I would like to take up on that offer of a maths outlining if you would! Regarding the idea of a no-lynch...I think that would just get Dizzy killed. Massclaiming suddenly does not sound like a fantastic idea after the church guy and Jimmy Gibbs Jr. flipped town. Apparently, flavour does not match scumminess in this game.

The remaining bad guys are...oh I don't know, Amished, almightybob and bv310 I guess.

[Charlie]

The case lies with the dead townines. So sad. Ignore me for a bit if you will.

[Charlie]

You think so, Dizzy? I would maybe have liked ReaperCharlie to fullclaim before hammering...so we could get some idea of what a fakeclaim would look like.

Anyway. I'll do my best to work on original cases against my suspects. Sometime today.

[Charlie]

Sure, that's a fair assumption to make. Still I would prefer town to make the least amount of assumptions as possible at this stage of the game. Imma reread the thread to look for stuff.

[Charlie]

Let's try a few questions:

bob, do you think Amished is town? Why?
Amished, do you think bob is town? Why?

[Charlie]

Um. Are you serious? That's everyone except Dizzy and myself! Whatever, I'm assuming those are.

I...don't think you're town, bob. You're awfully pessimistic. I don't feel you're behaving right, as though you're hiding something by the way you post. Call it gut if you will.

I don't think Amished is town because townies who suspected him ended up dead. Yeah, not great stuff but I'll work on it.

I'm on the fence with bv310. For the record, getting roleblocked gurantees the return of used item, so he's telling the truth with that point.

Crypto gives me an aura of lurkishness. I don't really think he's town either.

SK...didn't pay full attention to the thread. Still, I think he's town? I'd get a better read on him if he says more things with content in it.

I trust Starbuck to be town for now. Her claimed breadcrumb story convinced me. She's paranoid-ish, but town.

The pushes that have been brought against him so far have felt very scummy to me, in particular SPS's "Glork said so" case. Obviously we know he wasn't scum and therefore was just lazy Town

Not really. He just could be wrong.

but if I go back and find anyone agreeing with that logic, I would put my money on them being scum.

Me?

[Charlie]

For the record, getting roleblocked gurantees the return of used item, so he's telling the truth with that point.

It does? How do you know that?

I simply asked the mod.

So yeah, that's a black mark against your name Charlie.

Doh! Tell who you think the 3 bad guys are.

[Charlie]

Yes, I think there most probably are.

[Charlie]

Garbage. You don't have to be town to understand a function of the setup.

The point was to tell you that he wasn't lying, is all.

I agree that almightybob is scummy

whowhatwhywherewhenhow?

but bv has been pitching an item-chewing scum game all game.

Um hmm.

[Charlie]

Vote: Amished

I'll leave this here as it is unlikely that all 3 infected (assumed) will be available to quickhammer if I'm wrong.

[Charlie]

That he is scum?

[Charlie]

Not a good case. But with such low activity levels, I'm less concerned. Amished & bob: lay down your votes!

[Charlie]

The only reason I'm not replacing out...

That's a terrible reason to play. Non-self motivations just don't work.

Anyway. If you cross out DizzyizzyB13, Starbuck, myself and of course yourself as scum, who are the baddies?

[Charlie]

Fine,

unvote

for now.

[Charlie]

Charlie thinks there are 3 scum left and therefore agrees with me that we are in mylo, but puts down a vote before we reach concensus. He also encourages Amished and myself to vote as if it's just any normal Day instead of mylo. Does not compute. Another black mark.

That vote garnered some discussion didn't it? Discussion is a good thing.

I really don't like Charlie's post 1686. Cutting out half the field is ridiculous when we only have 1 confirmed Townie. And I really don't like you trying to push yourself as cleared when you are nowhere near it.

Occam's razor, bob. Also why is asking that question "cutting out half the field"? It is merely selective questioning. I don't discount the other possibilities and I even answered your set of questions.

Anyways, my scummiest read right now is Charlie. I can collate a full case if necessary.
But frankly since I think we're in mylo, I still think a no-lynch is the right move. But if nobody else is gonna go for that, then my choice today would be Charlie. I would settle for bv, but he's not ideal.

Nope, you're wrong on both points. A no-lynch would just get our confirmed townie (Dizzy) killed, unless there is some protection mechanism in play. Unlikely, IMHO.

2) Your self-preservation is scum bullshit

In what way am I promoting my self-preservation?

For the longest time you've piggy-backed Glork and SPS (and IIRC partially Izzy at one point). I've finally figured out why I've been getting my bad vibes from this game and you: you've been the one attempting to frame me.

I also switch my suspicions to many others; doesn't that tell you something? Did I really press for your lynch? Doesn't that tell you something?

Instead I believe you're buddying to Starbuck (ISO 80 and ISO 85)

I trust my town reads more than the others.

To elaborate further as well: you've "conveniently" resisted looking at alternate explanations for the NK's because you don't want to give your own motivations away through discussion. You know that it can't hold up to intense scrutiny but you continue to push the weak reason that you've pushed all game. You're worse than SK in the fact that you haven't "caught up" insofar as you haven't produced the case that you've essentially been promising since you've first voted me (since you never really had anything ever).

You've overcomplicated things. I'm looking at it simple. Am I really pushing? No, not really.

Also, I want people to look back at his interactions with dramonic...<snip>

This is ridiculous, I throw your case out of the window. Think simple and you'll read me differently.

Overall, I think your case is based on me being complicated. I don't do complicated stuff. I'd prefer to keep things simple and that is reflected in my posts. Continue scumhunting.

I think we should lynch one of...
almightybob
Amished
SaintKerrigan

[Charlie]

crypto, besides bv, who else do you think is Infected?

[Charlie]

You want a case, I'll give you a case.

[Charlie]

Reading Amished in iso results in him starting of looking scummy, but ends progressively turns townish.

Amished - I came into this post expecting to find him the scummiest and lay down a vote, but in ISO he comes across as exactly the opposite. Town read

I'll admit it, I have to agree with that. However!

almightybob - Bob has been one of the most level-headed players so far. I agree with a lot of his posting so far, and I especially agree with his reasoning against Charlie. Town Read.

I disagree with this. Bob is playing sub par-ish in this game.

[Charlie]

Oh heck. There is one lead nobody thought to follow. Remember the pipe bomb? I deduce that crypto is in possession of it!

How about sharing what you have done/not done with it?

[Charlie]

The game has (was?) stagnated, bob.

Because you rule out people without any justification.

Perhaps a little. I'll try to be more careful about that next time.

Guys, watch the interaction between bv and Charlie in posts 1733 and 1734. bv's suspicion of Charlie sounds a lot like bussing

There is no connection between me and anybody else. If you think you see one then it is just incidental.

[Charlie]

Pretty convincing facts there, bob. But that is just the truth: I did find his iso change from scummy to townish progressively. Sadly it looks like a 180. Your conclusion that it was scummy makes no difference in my suspicion on you.

If Amished is not scum then it is between almightybob, bv310, crypto and SaintKerrigan. Starbuck is quite town I think.

[Charlie]

No, I'm at L-2, bob. It takes 5 to lynch. I wouldn't recommend a premature hammer since we have yet to hear more stuff from SK and (admittedly) myself.

I'll give an analysis in a few hours time.

[Charlie]

Woah. The Survivors are very close to being overwhelmed! I'm working on the thread now.

[Charlie]

I'm experiencing some site issues. But I can do an analysis of almightybob now.

Here are the people almightybob voted in chronological order:

1. DeathNote
2. jmj3000
3. bv310
4. jmj3000
5. thatguy00
6. DizzyIzzyB13
7. SPS
8. ReaperCharlie
9. Charlie

His attack on DeathNote was quite comprehensive and looks town.

His attack on bv310 seems a little opportunistic. However, at that time I share his POV that bv310's action was a little hasty. On one hand I can see this as town following up on a lead, but... it still feels light. Eventually we ended up with no-lynch so what the heck.

He later goes ahead and vote jmj3000 due to deadline issues. Fair enough I suppose.

The attack on thatguy00 was based on his support of a nameclaim. Strange, now that I think of it he perfectly knew that I was the primary person who started it and by that logic he should have voted me. After thatguy00 voiced out his support + reasoning he went ahead and vote him. This I feel is a null tell.

During the whole Dizzy/SPS fight he seems quite level headed about it. Moves his vote around due to deadline issues again. That's good play and a null tell.

Him being on the ReaperCharlie wagon is perhaps a good thing. It still does not exclude him from being the other Infected side though.

And his recent attack on me... I'm not really sure what to make of it. He does compile a good-looking case, but that seems to easy. It just looks good, but I think you're ignoring a lot of other facts about my posting. Just as Amished did. Putting together a bunch of my posts together and later wanting to hammer. But his preferred action is a no-lynch. Yet he is not pushing aggressively for it. Strange.

Overall, there is not enough evidence from the case above for me to conclude that almightybob is definite scum. I'm not confident enough even to lay down a vote on him. But there is a decision to make, and I would pick him over Amished or SaintKerrigan at this time.

Oh anyway all this is irrelevant if the Infected is crypto/SaintKerrigan + there are 3 scum remaining.

[Charlie]

Game over! The survivors have been overwhelmed.

But I had fun, and it was a good learning experience even though town lost. Really, playing in a large theme game made me think up of so many complicated possibilities I decided that "WTH, if everyone thinks of complicated stuff then the whole game would be a difficult puzzle. So why no default to all the simplest solution; in hopes that things would balance things out".

Scumhunting I can do, case-making I feel somewhat inexperienced. As town my opinions of suspects tend to fluctuate as people say stuff. From time to time I voice out who my suspects were and I bet if there was more talk, I could have strayed. But I know that in a lylo situation, gut is the way to go. Side-note: bob, you were really not playing as I remember you did in Newbie 888; that was ultra suspicious in my eyes.

Looking at the fakeclaims... yep, nameclaim would not be have been useful to town after all. Learned something valuable.

Wow, crazy pair of night actions N5. It so could have been a day 6 but c'est la vis.

Thanks for the game all.

[Charlie]

Oo, that could have been read as a scum giveaway... I think I read that thinking they were refering to themselves as a two-headed hydra.