Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)
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Iecerint Survivor
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Fate, you should unvote and vote SaintKerrigan if you want to vote DarkStalker.
Also, yeah, failing to pick up on it by now shows you aren't reading the thread.. (This is on Fate.) Preview edit: This was before his OMGUS, even.Unvote; Vote: dramonic
Dunno what to do with the Worship mechanic. I'd say the Old Ones are a priori scummy, or at least 3rd party, based on flavor, but, from a mechanics perspectives, all the groups are probably mostly equally scummy in the short term.
As for Els's idea...on the one hand, it's like an RVS on the worship votes, except that it's not really one that necessarily has anything to do with scum-town alignment (unless the Old Gods are all scum or something, but then they'd probably just lie about who they want to worship, anyway). It might be useful long-term if there are incidentally lots of scum in one of the other 3 godsets, but I'm inclined to believe that it's probably not a productive exercise. Explain why I'm wrong if necessary.-
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I considered Mina to be rolefishing. I think rolefishing is almost always scummy, and I have no reason to believe that this is an exception. I'm think her explanation after I pointed out the discrepancy is OK for now, though, so I left it alone after that.
But I should note that, upon reflection, it's a little weird that this sequence of events would happen:
1. Mina considers whether she should ask about the late addition's alignment.
2. Mina decides it's OK and asks.
3. Mina says she's worried about set-up speculation leading to role-fishing.
I think I would've expected townMina to lampshade (2) in (3). It's in the back of my head.
Re: Fate, from his post, it looks like he's intending to vote ani (=DS). So it looks like he's voting his suspect rather than the fellow 2 above the fellow. Hence, not understanding the rules in some way. I did notice his second point, but interpreted it as like cosmic dramatic irony or some unknown mechanic due to his vote for DS appearing serious.
The only point of the vote mechanic ability (as far as we know) is to create confusion about vote targets. Up to a point, it is reasonable to be confused, but after that point, your behavior is anti-town at best, either because:
1. You are not reading.
2. You have poor reading comprehension.
3. You are scum overestimating how long it reasonably takes town to figure shit out and are consequently overshooting.
4. You are scum trying to bring confusion.-
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I'm kinda ambivalent about ABR's exercise -- it's not as if there's nothing to talk about, so it might just derail us without accomplishing anything, but I like doing what ABR tells me to for the most part, so I'll oblige:
4x4xjuiced SK'd be my guess. Large games I've played all have 2 scumgroups, plus the worship mechanic makes that less good.
Preview edit: This matches SK's pretty closely; is a coincidence.-
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Yes, am reading. So long as we're on the subject -- does this game have a theme *other than* "some mythologies put together"? Cuz that was my understanding, but....
If the result is that disproportionately imba, the simpler explanation is that a disproportionate set of your group is scum, if anything. I suppose this may fluctuate depending upon the factors that make the Endless worshipable.SpyreX wrote:I'm not getting into what happens if I am Delight. Lets just say that if all the endless are town its a pretty sweet ass gig.-
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Uh, OK, but that has nothing to do with the fact that Plum intended it as a self-vote. Hence, O/R/Whomever's complaint about Plum is valid IMO.-
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@ Zor, I don't see Fate's initial-initial play as gutsy at all. It's defensive and paranoid. His RVS vote is perfunctory (or scummy, but we'll take his universe). His next post, "Parama is scum because he thinks I'm 3rd party," is worse. His FOLLOWING post, "Chrono is scum for voting me," manages to be yet-worse.
His claim to want to worship the Old Gods is an attempt to recontextualize his play as "silly" rather than "scummy"
His lame "your reluctance to share with the town is noted" to someone who didn't want to answer ABR's question is just bullying. I'm not sure about ABR or SK one way or the other, though.
The only gutsy bit IMO is the very recent "I know something you don't" thing about ABR. It does give me pause a little but idk.-
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@ DTM --
1. Of course the first two aren't scumtells; that's why I explicitly indicate that the list indicates "anti-town at best" explanations. I say this in the sentence before the bit you quoted. Nice misrep.
2. "Doesn't know about the vote counts" is OK on page 2 or 3. It starts to look fake when it happens on page 4 and things were figured out on page 2. Also, your example is basically the same as my (1), so your implication that I ignored it or something is another misrep.
3. I know it because it was incredibly obvious upon looking at the VC on the first page. Any idiot reading the thread could figure it out. Niki and I noticed it immediately. That makes me wary of all these "OOPS GUYS" people who come trudging through the door on page 4.
4. I have to explain to you why a bunch of players Voting for people they don't really intend to vote for ("or not") would cause confusion?
5. As for that last part...you do understand that SX's ability mismatches vote targets with who gets the votes...right? Or is that suspicious for some other reason?
Also was your note information mod-derived?-
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I love ABR with about half of my heart. The other half is gone because I was scum with him and he threw a fit and replaced out. Then he lost some of his hero appeal. But we won anyway.DTMaster wrote:If you are calling Fate scummah, the correct way is to link that ABR comment like ABR himself and call him out on buddahing! You are a lazy ass right now.
tl;dr I empathize with ABR-buddy-ers.
Also, are you just being a PR-enforced jerk with that bit, or what?-
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I am seething. I hope you understand that.Fate wrote:There's much better ways to call Fate scum than using his random vote.
Also, way to characterize 3 consecutive votes in separate posts secondary to pressure as your "random vote." I find that very plausible. [/sarcasm]
DTM (and others) are either reading those circumstances as WAAAY more town than is default, or...well, that's exactly what they're doing IMO. <_<
I still need a few more players to post so I can figure a certain thing out.
SX, are you saying that Great Old Ones == "Endless," or that "Great Old Ones" means like "hodgepodge including Lovecraftian things + Endless."-
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Oh, I see what you meant, Plum. I didn't notice that SK was 2 below you on the votelist, so I thought you were like "typical random vote...no wait, I'll vote myself because I hate my role."
Not to beat a dead horse, but please indicate explicitly that your Percy vote is a raj vote (etc.) in the future. Make it easy for isoers in a few months.-
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@ DTM
1. Fate was pretty par-for-the-course in the only game I've played with him. But I'll keep that in mind.
I dunno what you mean by "just calling him names." If anyone is guilty of style-over-substance, it's you (cf. that whole set of paragraphs, with your very cute erectile dysfunction extended metaphor).
2. Incidentally, I have found scum during RVS twice. But somehow we lost overall both times. Go figure.
Also, the post didn't look like RVS to me. It looked like a botched attempt to look ignorant of the vote mechanism. BUT even if you don't take that, claiming that his next two votes were someone *also* RVS is totally O.o IMO.
(Also, it was page 4 IIRC, so I dunno what's up with that page 2 business.)
3. OK, so this is how this went:
Iec: God, at this point it's just scummy to pretend you don't know what's going on. Get with the program, people.
DTM: OMG HOW U NO THAT IS CUZ YR SKUM RITE?
Iec: Um, no. I used a technique called "reading."
DTM: OH WELL I DIDN'T READ PAGE 1. SO THERE. YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALIDATED.
If you refer to my original list, this would put you in category (1) at best.
4. My 1-4 list wasn't describing Fate's situation per se. It was describing reasons why players in general might keep "messing up" as late as page 4. And again, I'll keep the meta angle in mind, but it's not like that was even his first vote.
5. k
6. Why are you being such a bitch? You could've gotten information from another player, for example.
I kinda ignored raj's post tbh. This is fast fast fast and you are keeping me from studying cardiac physiology. I'll go back and look.-
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@ Percy --
Game where I yelled at a player for rolefishing early D1, no one listened to me, and he was scum who won lylo. Said player is tjoe. Not that I played overly well in that game as a whole, but it sticks in my mind. <_<
I think there was also some rolefishing by scum in the first bit of Kingdom Hearts, but I replaced in after it, so I only kinda skimmed that bit. It's the area around Discode's claim early on.-
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2b. I guess so, but it personally occurred to me so quickly that I didn't think much of it.
3. I AM GETTING TO IT. Actually I tried for a moment and I was like GOD CANNOT HANDLE THIS SENTENCE STRUCTURE so I stopped. But I'll do it whenever there is a lull.
4a. When I saw Fate do what he did (as I interpreted it, I mean -- pretend to not know what was going on), I made a list of other reasons why he might have been confused about voting on page 4. "Scum promoting confusion" (e.g. making an environment with lots of YOU DO THIS/GOD YOU ARE SO DUMB DO THIS-type content instead of scumhunting) was on the list. My main argument was that Fate was a type (3) player (faking lack of knowledge to look town, but going too far), or an anti-town one.
For the record, that's also how I see Els's request that we share who we intend to worship, ESPECIALLY considering that he first wanted us all to vote on whether we should share said information first. Huge timesuck.
ABR is different maybe because he is apparently either God or Satan or whatever.
4b. Nah, I'm totally a wimp. Or that's how I perceive myself. The only time I do much is when I manage to confirm myself, which is curiously frequent.
Hey SX, could you ask whether your ability applies to votes *and* lynches? Like, will the player 2 slows below the lynched player (4 slots below the player we all vote for) be the one who dies? This approaches bastard mod territory, but I wanna get that out there.-
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EBWOP: Uh, also, SX did the vote thing, anyway. And he seems like a sweetheart but ye know.-
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Hey, raj asked me a question a long time ago! Who knew?
It depends on what you mean by "random voting."raj wrote:[D]o you have a problem with random voting[,] Iecerint?
1. I endorse soon-as-possible (or sooner!), RVS-stage analysis. So, I endorse what people are saying I ("wrongly") did to Fate, even though I'm not convinced I did it at all this time.
2. I endorse voting in your first post, and I endorse keeping a vote down at all times thereafter barring extreme circumstances.
3. However, I do not like /random'd RVS votes, or for players to somehow claim that their RVS votes shouldn't be analyzed because they are "random." That is sort of not the point of RVS. so that is why this DTM business with Fate RVS being off the table rubs me the wrong way. But if you are a badmeta player and cannot be helped (as Fate apparently is, contrary to my experience), that is something else.
~~~~~~~~
Anyway, back @ DTM
I do not understand the point of his big post. I read it 3 times, and it seems pretty vacuous. I'm not writing this with your big commentary up, but. Well. I don't see much there one way or the other. He's mostly complaining about playstyle.
I do agree with Percy's point that his first two posts don't make sense. For one thing, if you think someone is scummy, it's better to target them than the (perceived) VI. So post 1 is kinda meh maybe anyway, at least as per his interpretation. But then he admits to being a category (1) player, which contradicts with that.
Then he comes back at the end and does an OMGUS (in a voteless "oh that was so mean man cut a bro some slack" sense) at Percy's IMO legitimate argument and totally exaggerates the extent of the pressure on him.
So I agree with Percy, basically.-
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I usually use more smileys, I guess. And I'm usually more lighthearted. I'm mad at myself because I still have an hour of cardiac physiology lecture to listen to and I have an exam Tuesday that I haven't done anything for and I am in a gillion games and post-game dead rooms, so I have spent literally all day at the computer, except for classes and such.
Moar razz from here on out, though.-
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In order of your absolutely hideous quote boxes:
1. You are reading my post wrong. It does not make sense for all 4 of those assertions to be true at the same time. I don't even know how you could come to that conclusion. Rather, there are 4 mutually exclusive explanations (well, mostly mutually exclusive; that's how I meant them, anyway), I favor a scummy one and vote Fate. (I also have a weak secret scumtell on Fate, but that's neither here nor there.)
AND YES, YOU CONTINUOUSLY GAVE FATE A PASS BECAUSE HIS FIRST THREE VOTES WERE JUST RVS-GRADE STUFF. FACTFACTFACT.
2. No, I'm attacking Fate for *pretending* not to know about the vote mechanic, because by that point it was IMPOSSIBLE for any reasonable person not to have figured it out. I got it on page 1; how special ed can people be, etc.
3. Uh, I said raj was scummy for the same reason, so I dunno what your point is. I missed it because I didn't read his posts because they are poorly-spelt and punctuated and I was too busy continuously writing you love letters to bother with them.
4.
OK, so, I started responding to DTM's post, but it's such a load of crap that I really can't be bothered. He's spewing mass BS, there are internal contradictions everywhere, etc. If someone else sees something he says that is worth responding to, I'll do it, but I don't really see anything new, and I am tired and frustrated of having wasted the past several hours of my life.
Since all the cool kids are already saying it, I intend to worship theNorse Gods.-
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That was a simulpost. I, uh. Didn't see your question. Honest. O_O
To be a little more specific, I had my doubts about you earlier on during the ABR bit IIRC, but. They have lessened considerably.
Why'd'ye ask me specifically, SX?
Reflecting a little more on Minatell, I think it's only plausibly scummy if that were an actual mechanic. Which I mean. It is sort of mean for all the recruited players to be confirmed scum, but. Hmm. I suppose a scumMina flip would give us scumO scumDTM, potentially, but it seems like a kinda mean mechanic for Kinetic to use.-
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I appear to be tunneling on Fate because I have to attend to your posts to such an absurd degree that I cannot bother to invest time in figuring out anyone else. It took me like 3 posts to get around to READING raj because I kept responding to things, I was so stuck in answering your series of (largely prior addressed) questions.
SX, what's the dissonance?-
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1. You were in Kingdom Hearts?Faraday wrote:basically i've played with him as town and read games where he was town (kh for one) and he's usually pretty obv town. Conversely in the games I've played where he's scum an ongoing and opensource I've felt he was off but was never able to put it into words there either. He seems more like the latter here, I guess it's gut/meta knowing how he plays.
2. My play in Kingdom Hearts was not typical IMO. That was my "I'm confirmed town, so I'll just play Watson to DGB's Sherlock Holmes and no one will care." I recently did the same thing to ooba's Sherlock Holmes in Greek Mythology. I did play sorta like that in Twilight, too, though, largely because everyone was nice to me even though I replaced total lurker xofelf and claimed VT.
3. You were actually bff with me in OS. That's why I tried to save you from getting lynched D1.
4. No comment on the ongoing.
Just sayin.-
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Uh, I've never heard the term "cognitive dissonance" outside of psychology, so you'll have to say what the tell even means in MS. My guess is that it would mean something like Fairy Godfather, where someone totally makes up bizarre, weird stuff just to fit their contrived version of the game mechanics to make themselves not auto-scum, but I don't see evidence of that.-
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(And didn't someone just call you scummy a bit ago? Maybe I made it up; can't find it now. The reason I put that out there was that I don't like advertising town reads for their own sake because it signals good players to kill. Irrelevant concern if some players clearly think the player is suspicious.)-
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Oh. That's actually called hypocrisy, isn't it? w/e
Regarding Els's plan, it goes like this:
Els: I think we should all sit and discuss whether or not we should claim worship targets. Don't claim the actual targets yet.
Iec: I'm not sure that gives us much alignment information unless the game is set-up in a pretty bizarre fashion. I'm kinda skeptical.
Player X: NORSE!
Player Y: EGYPT!
Player Z: NORSE!
Player AA: OLD GODS LULZ
Iec: Uh. Fine. I'm worshiping the Norse Gods.
The Old Gods avoidance thing was just based on flavor -- there are no a priori "town" Old Gods whatsoever. I explicitly said that it was just a flavor thing at the time IIRC.
For the other, my worry was (similarly) that it would sidetrack more legitimate discussion. But then it seemed like protesting would do just as much, anyway, given ABR's reputation, so I played along. Plus, I kinda like doing what he tells me to do. ^^
NB: There was also one other reason for my skepticism, but I don't want to claim it outright at this time. Still thinking about it.-
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You have it backward. I said Norse gods long long after the ABR talk had resolved. And I never said I'd follow him, anyway; I said I wasn't sure about that. My lingering crush on ABR is a separate issue.Fate wrote:Iec's "Norse gods cuz cool kids are doing it" then mentioning later "I LIKE FOLLOW U ABR!" makes me *headscratch* as to why he didn't say "Idunno I'll just wait for ABR on the whole worship thing."
Were you in OS? Fair characterization if so, I guess; I could see you coming to that conclusion.Niki wrote: I've played a game with Iecerint-scum, and he did a great job of looking active and protown, but was a bit overly technical and cautious about joining bandwagons. I'm getting the same impression here.
Nope, I'm ordinary town (i.e. no fancy wincon) AFAIK. My guess is that my D1 play in Greek Mythology was kinda skewed because of being a Mason.ooba wrote:I find Iecerint's play different from both the most recent scum and town game I've played with him. Iece, are you a third party role here?
That said, I might point out that what happened with Iec->Fate->DTM here is kinda like the Iec->SD->Jack D1 in that game, in the sense that they're both me being harangued and answering the same 2-3 questions over and over (minus the Freudian excuse; this is not a crumb.). Same conclusion, too, come to think of it.
Is this me or DTM? Cuz you don't say and we're both not entirely context-free targets. Also, did you do that (i.e. fail to clarify) just to annoy me, or are you pretending not to know what's going on, too?ABR wrote:Vote: Iecerint
Then why didn't you say so? That aside, I think it's unlikely. The only balanced way to do it would be to have the Men do it, and that would make him confirmed to too many players.Mina wrote: It also occurred to me that both the Mafia and Town might get a recruit, so the replacements could be 1 town v. 1 Mafia.
My guess before DTM claimed being recruited was that Kinetic had noticed a flaw in the ruleset and was rebalancing to compensate. But with DTM's explanation, that doesn't seem plausible.
Uh, you mean the one where she asks about O and DTM's roles, then criticized cautioned someone else for making a plan that might lead to rolefishing? Like, from ages ago? Or are you confusing my attack on Mina with someone else's?Els wrote:Icerint: His attack on mina feels forced. I don't really see much weight in his accusations.
More later. I'm still on page 11, but I need to pick up my car.-
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Oh, you're right @ Niki; my mistake. It was actually Mina. Reposting, cuz it changes my commentary a little:
I think drawing the latter conclusion from Fables (rather than OS) is kinda a stretch. Namely, I don't know at all where the bandwagon thing comes from (unless she's misinterpreting that early-game I voted my scumbuddy and didn't want to vote the scummy townie until I'd finished distancing), and I don't get where I'm reluctant to join bandwagons this game, either.Mina wrote:I've played a game with Iecerint-scum [Fables], and he did a great job of looking active and protown, but was a bit overly technical and cautious about joining bandwagons. I'm getting the same impression here.
Is this directed at my 285, or at MO? Or are you just making a general observation?Els wrote:Finally, succintness is pro-town. Quote walls are depressing.
No further comments, it turns out.-
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I just read through my iso to doublecheck on some of the things people are attributing to me, cuz they didn't all sound familiar. FACT CHECK, all quotes are me:
Responding to Mina's Old God flavor speculation wrote:That said, yeah, I feel for any hypothetical town Old Gods out there.
These are the bits where I alluded to Old Gods. I think SX may have implied that I was more vs. than I actually was. Relevant because he implied as much after I called him town.Part of commentary on Els's plan IIRC wrote:Dunno what to do with the Worship mechanic. I'd say the Old Ones are a priori scummy, or at least 3rd party, based on flavor, but, from a mechanics perspectives, all the groups are probably mostly equally scummy in the short term.
Bold added. This is the quote in which DTM keeps claiming I'm necessarily attributing ALL of these characteristics to Fate, which is clearly not true via the bolded bit. (He also implied that I was arguing that these are all scummy per se, but he dropped that one pretty quickly, and it similarly is clearly not true.) Relevant because DTM dropped the bolded bit when he quoted this. I've already pointed out as much, but in the probable event that people can't be bothered to read us side-by-side, etc.When I was establishing why 11th hour voting 'confusion' related to n+2 targets was scummy wrote:Up to a point, it is reasonable to be confused, but after that point, your behavior isanti-town at best, eitherbecause:
1. You are not reading.
2. You have poor reading comprehension.
3. You are scum overestimating how long it reasonably takes town to figure shit out and are consequently overshooting.
4. You are scum trying to bring confusion.
This was after DTM posted some rhetoric assuming that the vote-shift came from scum. So with context I'd already made my view of SX kinda clear. Relevant because it might imply that his question was mostly rhetorical in function, but I guess the post was slightly vague if you weren't paying attention to context.During the back-and-forth with DTM wrote:EBWOP: Uh, also, SX did the vote thing, anyway. And he seems like a sweetheart but ye know.
(But the point that SX revealing the details of the mechanic was pro-town (as it let's town target appropriately, whereas scumSX would mean that scum could already target appropriately) overrules those bits IMO.)-
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I, uh, never claimed that, but I guess you're talking about my worship target? By "all the cool kids are doing it," I meant that so long as so many other worship targets are out there, we may as well have them all on the table.
Hmm. So I guess you're saying you're also delirium-immune? Like you're just way above all these fancy vote mechanics?-
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I mean, if you wanted to vote me, you would vote raj. But you didn't. And you don't appear to be braindead. So that you wanted to vote me implies that you think that you're delirium-immune, unless I'm missing something or your vote for me was purely rhetoric or whatever.
Did you miss all the players who claimed their worship targets earlier? Refer to my recent post for a condensed summary of the issue.-
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I mean, if you wanted to vote me, you would vote raj. But you didn't. And you don't appear to be braindead. So that you wanted to vote me implies that you think that you're delirium-immune, unless I'm missing something or your vote for me was purely rhetoric or whatever.
Did you miss all the players who claimed their worship targets earlier? Refer to my recent post for a condensed summary of the issue.
Preview edit: God, this has taken like 30 minutes to post. Hope there's no double...-
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I have lost enthusiasm for my Fate wagon.
(This is CryMeARiver, hereafter CMAR.)Unvote; Vote: Kairyuu
I noticed what ooba has noticed twice, too. In my old games with CMAR (Kingdom Hearts and Greek Mythology), his tone is like extremely earnest and eager to please. This game isn't like that. I think he may be affecting the posting style of one of the players who won in that game (Andrius).-
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I don't understand. Is your point that the Norse Gods are winning, so I should (assuming balanced godsets to start) worship someone else to achieve balance as a rational actor or something?
(Also, why would you anticipate a "domino effect"? If anything, players would probably balance worship targets as described above IMO.)
If it makes you feel any better, I have principled reasons for my worship choice, and they have relatively little to do with my hypothetical mortality or faction. No, I will not share those reasons at this time.-
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Voting you serves no purpose at present. So I stopped.
CMAR is someone I noticed early on. Voting him has a purpose.-
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Al, don't you sort of want to know who's in each group to an extent, because you're a person who says he intends to direct the Worship?
Incidentally, if you think it's bad to let people know who's in which faction, why did you lampshade a perceived "Norse God crumb" on my part?
Scum probably have a good idea of who's in each faction, anyway, come to think of it, though if there are 2 scum teams they might not individually know ALL the faction members.
Anyway, whine to Elscouta if you don't like it. It was his idea.-
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