Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)

[SaintKerrigan]

Vote: rajrhcpfreak

for having a name that I'm going to have to copy-paste for the rest of the game.

(Yes, this sucks at humor value, but I couldn't think of anything else.)

In other news, I know some folks here. 'Sup, folks I know?

[SaintKerrigan]

Hi SK. Why'd you vote for Iecerint?

I didn't.

[SaintKerrigan]

Yes you did.

So it looks like everyone is voting for the player 2 slots below, with word wrap?

I just realized that.

Unvote: rajrhcpfreak.
Vote: Percy

due to the shift.

As for why I'm voting rajrhcpfreak, read my original vote post.

[SaintKerrigan]

Check the actual number of votes someone has, peoples. You'll notice that Faraday has three votes when no one said they were voting for him.

[SaintKerrigan]

Grr, Nik iz fazter

[SaintKerrigan]

Unvote: rajrhcpfreak.
Vote: Dramonic.

(Fate)

What's with all the OMGUS?

@ Plum: Serious vote for me or no?

[SaintKerrigan]

crap i skimmed over those pages not understanding the vote count.

ignore me chastizing plum.
SaintKerrigan random voted then for some reason when he found out the mechanic he unvoted to revote for me. somthing feels weird, its no longer random its intentional. do you have a problem with random voting Iecerint?

ill keep my vote on Saint. he was second on my list anyways.

I random voted you. I then realized that the vote count was screwy so I corrected my vote so it was on the person it was supposed to be on.

What's wrong with that?

[SaintKerrigan]

Unvote: Dramonic.
Vote: Beholder.

Just to see what happens.

Also, I'm fail to see the relevance (if any) of info gained from stating who we'd worship right this moment. Could someone in favor of that plan explain it to me?

[SaintKerrigan]

I want everyone to answer this:

Setup speculation time...how many scum do you think there are?

Probably 7-9 scum, with 2-3 third party.

[SaintKerrigan]

Any reason not to?

Yeah. I don't see how it helps town, but it helps scum by giving them an idea of how the town is likely to worship vote, which they can plan for accordingly.

Let's say a majority of people say they will vote for Egypt. Then the next day Norse Gods have the majority.

We know:
1. People lied about their targets
2. People had a reason to lie about said targets
3. Worshiping a particular group has some win-condition related motive.

We would then know (townies who were truthing) to avoid voting for Norse Gods because of what happened.

1. That,

or

people changed their minds after the worship vote claim for some reason or other.
2. That, or see above.
3. Where did you pick up this idea?

You're reluctance to share with the town is noted.

Communist Russia forced its people to share with the town. Look what happened to them.

[SaintKerrigan]

Any reason not to?

Yeah. I don't see how it helps town, but it helps scum by giving them an idea of how the town is likely to worship vote, which they can plan for accordingly.

Let's say a majority of people say they will vote for Egypt. Then the next day Norse Gods have the majority.

We know:
1. People lied about their targets
2. People had a reason to lie about said targets
3. Worshiping a particular group has some win-condition related motive.

We would then know (townies who were truthing) to avoid voting for Norse Gods because of what happened.

1. That,

or

people changed their minds after the worship vote claim for some reason or other.
2. That, or see above.
3. Where did you pick up this idea?

You're reluctance to share with the town is noted.

Communist Russia forced its people to share with the town. Look what happened to them.

[SaintKerrigan]

Any reason not to?

Yeah. I don't see how it helps town, but it helps scum by giving them an idea of how the town is likely to worship vote, which they can plan for accordingly.

Let's say a majority of people say they will vote for Egypt. Then the next day Norse Gods have the majority.

We know:
1. People lied about their targets
2. People had a reason to lie about said targets
3. Worshiping a particular group has some win-condition related motive.

We would then know (townies who were truthing) to avoid voting for Norse Gods because of what happened.

1. That,

or

people changed their minds after the worship vote claim for some reason or other.
2. That, or see above.
3. Where did you pick up this idea?

You're reluctance to share with the town is noted.

Communist Russia forced its people to share with the town. Look what happened to them.

[SaintKerrigan]

Son of a bitch.

Mod, please get rid of the extraneous posts.

7-9 is multiple answers. I asked for one precise answer. Follow instructions.

Actually, thinking about it harder, there's probably two scum groups, with four each, as well as two third-party roles. I say two scum groups because otherwise the worship mechanic would be easily abused by everyone on the same scumteam worshiping the gods that benefit them the most. Two third party because in a game this size, why not?

[SaintKerrigan]

Well I'm sure those people would come forward then and explain why they did so?

And give scum an even better idea of where the worship votes will go?

Fate, you need to explain what you know about worship win conditions and how you know it, now. Because I rather doubt worship win conditions are town-related.

I'm not sure about appointing ABR town chief, not without some good assurance that we're making the right decision.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Sk ..and? What? If they've an idea where the votes are going..what does it do? They can try and swing the vote a certain way is your worry?

That's one possibility. Who knows what kind of roles scum have out there?

@ ABR: Which gods do you intend to have the town worship?

[SaintKerrigan]

I expect SaintKerrigan to find this post suspicious just because I'm the one making it and it's how he reacts to me.

Har har. Actually, I don't see your hydra as scummy at the moment. Must be because of Papa Zito.

Fate's initial play is probably too ballsy for scum though I don't know his play well.

Fate can actually get really ballsy as scum, so it's not out of the question. (Ongoing game, so can't directly reference it.)

To answer SK: I never said I knew there to be win cons related to worships, that was just speculation on my part and their possible existence is one reason to have worships out in the open.

I see. But wouldn't telegraphing our every worship vote make it easier for people with worship wincons to try and sway worship votes in favor of their wincon?

How? Unless scum is one of said factions, or they know who's on each faction. V.V. If anything, People who have specific worships want to coordinate the worship votes for a certain factions.

We don't know if that faction is town-aligned/scum-aligned. We don't know if a faction gains the majority they grant us massive powerups.

Heck the whole worship thing reads as multiple factions, but not necessarily multiple scum factions.

If scum belong to one of the god factions, they get benefits from being part of the majority-worshiped god factions. They may be able to influence where worship votes go, whether through persuasion, role-related ability, or otherwise. The point is, we have no idea yet how scum can influence worship votes, and making it easier for them to know where worship votes are going just sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Do you hate the gods you mother fucker? You seem to like ABR's plan that hint heavily about the worships, but you don't like the gods in general.

Who said I didn't like gods in general?

OMGUS or not his reasoning is fallible. lets go slowly for you to understand..

1. he first blames it on random vote. i do detest random votes but thats a losing battle.
2. what better way to random vote than to place a vote and it magicly moves it to another player.
3. apparently the random random vote isnt good enough for SK so he unvotes and rerandom votes.

1. Random votes are random votes. Seriously.
2. And I was aware of this how, exactly?
3. Because I like being technically correct. I random-voted you, but it went on someone else, so I fixed my random vote so it appeared on the correct person. Some people are like that.

now lets make some conclusions:
1. since his vote really isnt random then there is somthing behind his votes.
i can only conclude that he has some reason to vote for me, or he has a reason not to vote for Iecerint. i wont go into the the many WIFOM options that we can go from that, but in the end he is lying about his random vote.

This is either excessive OMGUS paranoia, or you're scum trying to drum up an early case.

is this OMGUS? well is it ok to attack a person that you know is innocent for intentially voting for them but hiding it as a random vote? yes as long as its not yourself aparently. is he scum? possibly. enough for me to call him out on it and give him a vote. its not like any of his votes have been pro town anyways.

i really hate that we get to a place in the game where we cant confront attackers without it being called OMGUS.

Your argument is OMGUS. You're taking something insignificant and blowing it way out of proportion. Portraying your case as the victim of "unfair" OMGUS accusations doesn't suddenly improve it in any way.

On worship, i dont care how we do it. i can vote any way, how ever the town requests, or make all my vote completely transparent.

This is scummy. This is grovelling at its finest.

***

Fate forgetting the vote quirks on PAGE 8 is major /facepalm territory.

In theory, we could tabulate who falls under the "benefits if X is worshipped", and select the group that has the most townie-looking people in it to worship. Otherwise, we either (1) Ignore the worship mechanic (bad idea), (2) Worship at random / in secret (also bad idea) or (3) Worship a group of gods to give a specific player the worship benefit, risking a boost to scum as well.
Locking scum into claims now is also a good idea wrt the worship mechanic.

Ok, now this is actually decent reasoning. I'm still concerned with possible ways scum could influence our worship votes, however.

Also, locking scum into worship vote claims is irrelevant since they'll probably not tell the truth anyway. Unless ABR's player map specifically tells him which players voted for what gods, we won't know the difference.

***

Chrono's vote for MO is ??? territory.

Have addressed the concerns raised by J-scope in answers to other players.

DTM seems gung-ho on nailing MO for not voting for me despite being "suspicious." Yet when MO requests clarification, DTM seems to forget the matter entirely. What's up with that, DTM?

@ Raj: I don't have a problem with voting Icerint. I do have a problem when my votes don't end up where I thought they'd be, even if they're random votes. Again, why're you freaking out over a random vote?

Not sure yet about the Mina mini-wagon. The way Mina explains things looks valid, and some interesting points get raised (like Ort and DTM's answer to his question). I'm not sold on Mina-scum. Nik, however, gets negative town points for the pseudo-vote and the weak hopping on the Mina mini-wagon.

@SaintKerrigan and Elscouta: when you get back, I'd like to hear some suspects from you both. Most of your posts have been about the set-up. It's giving me trouble reading you.

Don't worry, suspects and stuffs are coming.

@ Ooba: Why am I scum?

@ DT: WTF is with this vote thief stuff? I see nothing wrong with the vote count (beyond the usual shenanigans).

OK, supects inbound! Scummiest at the top:

Nikanor
Raj
DTM
Fate

Unvote: Beholder.
Vote: Nikanor.

[SaintKerrigan]

Fuck I screwed up the vote.

Unvote: Nikanor.
Vote: DarkStalker.

Snide remark to Fate about forgetting the mechanics retracted.

[SaintKerrigan]

16 Snow_Bunny (1) - SpyreX, Nikator, Starbuck
17 Nikanor (2) -
18 Mina (3) - dramonic
19 SpyreX (0) -
20 Katy (0) -

This is correct?

Seriously Starbuck, voteless again?

Vote mechanics, dude.

All votes and actions are shifted down by 2 as per Spyrex's ability.

Read da thread...

[SaintKerrigan]

2.

If scum belong to one of the god factions, they get benefits from being part of the majority-worshiped god factions. They may be able to influence where worship votes go, whether through persuasion, role-related ability, or otherwise. The point is, we have no idea yet how scum can influence worship votes, and making it easier for them to know where worship votes are going just sounds like a recipe for disaster.

I don't buy this simply because, we don't know what the gods do. Yes they (scum) could be a god faction (or all the gods are scum or something), no we don't know that. If we all worship to the gods of day vigs, we all might become day vigs. But do we really know that? I donno. Would it be cool, yes!.

I expect healthy doses of criticism and paranoia of the worship votes, but if we can use it to confirm an entire faction as town, then we should use the mechanic. It exists for a reason and I expect there to be some resemblance of balance in it.

Posts like these read as scum paranoid of the unknown, rather town, skeptical of the unknown. Squelching potential powerups is a priority for the former.

Ok, let me put it this way: Spyrex is a deity role. If her worship faction gets the most worship votes, she gets a benefit to her role. It's reasonable to think that other deities, at least, experience something similar. So if scum have a means to influence worship votes, they will use it to empower their players as much as possible. The more they know about our worship votes, the more easily they can plan their strategy. I'd much rather prevent the scum from learning more info about our worship votes (and anything else in general) than is necessary.

How about this - we get the scummiest people (say 4-5) to declare their worship votes beforehand in the thread .. I say we should lynch them if we find out they've deviated from it.

And what's to say there isn't a scum ability to change people's worship votes? Immediate mislynches, and we might not even know it until the day after (or whenever true roles are revealed).

Which reminds me of something -- due to Spyrex's ability, it's very likely that the lynch rolecop will be shifted down two places as well. Just something to keep in mind.

2. What made me go from vote worthy to least scummiest, especially with the revelation of my scum-balls?

You're not least scummiest overall, you're just currently sitting at the bottom of my suspect list. As for why you're down there, I've got other people piquing my interest more than you at the moment.

And an MO vote. What are people seeing in this wagon, 'cause I'm not getting it.

Did Iecrint just abandon his vote on Scummy McFatepants for a META wagon?

Awwwwww HELLLLL NAW

You simply can't be first in everything, including scumlists.

Satisfactory answer. I would've asked you in our QT but then it wouldn't have been as an effective distancing vote.

Speculation: Fate's role requires him to get lynched or killed.

Something like the above quote and the scum-oriented wincon he posted a while back aren't things you post when you're actually trying to stay alive. Plus he's been getting antsy about people debarking his wagon. This reads like someone who's trying to die, but without making it blatantly obvious so people won't kill him off.

Btw, MO wagon is a good one. I have heard they will give cookies to everyone on it.

SaintKerrigan, what do we say about people who give out cookies for lynches?

Cookies are scummy, biyatch!

Unvote: DarkStalker.
Vote: Totallynotmafia

(Elscouta)

Saintkerrigan is a decent chance for scum too.

...because?

"he" can be anyone. it can be you telling me who you will worship, or abr telling me who abr will worship, etc.

What? Specificity is good, man.

That . . . could have gone better. Got the job, then found out I'd be one of those people who go door to door begging for money, then had the person training me get into an argument with someone about property boundries (he wanted us to leave, my supervisor decided to act like a child and not move 10 feet) which resulted in the cops being called. So I quit halfway through my first day. THE SEARCH CONTINUES.

Ugh, I feel for ya. Had a similar experience myself a long while back.

Not sure yet what to make about Tar's claim.

Ortolan's #376 reads off to me. The frustration doesn't feel genuine. Either that or he's freaking out over three votes. Need to go back and reread him to see if anything of merit shows up.

Fate posts on Page 16 make me feel even more confident in the idea that he's trying to get himself lynched/killed.

Ortolan's #380 continues the fake frustration factor.

Unvote: rajrhcpfreak.
Vote: Dramonic. (Fate)

What's with all the OMGUS?

@ Plum: Serious vote for me or no?

SK posted this after Ice attacked Fate for this already. This is more of a scummy piggy back then Ortolan.

How is this scummy? It's still early in the game, and I wanted to question Fate on it just as well as Ice.

Also, why do you think I should die? Say it as concisely as you possibly can.

Mina's Post #421 I like.

Unvote: Totallynotmafia.
Vote: Nikanor.

Cookies are scummy and all, but so are albino water snakes (wild guess because I'm too lazy to figure out what they actually are).

Seriously, though, that Mina hop is still bugging me. Plus I'm not sure what to make about your Parama push. Something feels mislynchy about this.

[SaintKerrigan]

...and I just realized I forgot to account for the shift again. Blarg

Unvote: Nikanor
Vote: DarkStalker

(Nikanor)

[SaintKerrigan]

@ DTM

1. Of course I'm paranoid. We have no clue how or if scum can influence the way we worship. This is why I'm opposed to the idea of revealing who we're going to worship.

Incidentally, how do you think you can use the worship mechanic to confirm factions? Also, do you mean scum-town factions or god factions?

2. If I'm supposed to reply to something here, I'm not seeing it.

3. Why is my vote OMGUS? Incidentally, I'm not voting Fate anymore, FYI. In fact, I'm currently thinking he's third party.

4. Yeah, but the stuff you've posted against me is hardly strong enough reasoning for wanting my death.

What is a lynch rolecop?

<2> Lynch Reveals: When a player is lynched, immediately after the Lynch Count is reached the lynched player will be targeted by a mod-confirmed SANE role cop investigation and a mod-confirmed SANE alignment cop investigation with the results being revealed before the night phase. After the Night Phase the lynched player will be killed and their mod-confirmed true alignment and role name will be revealed during the Daybreak.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Starbuck: Mind offering data that is more relevant to scumhunting, plz?

1st: are you serious? just because i have no clue what the mechanic does and i want to help the town im grovelling?

You made no mention of not understanding the mechanic at or before the time of the statement in question. And it definitely looks like grovelling.

2nd: YOUR VOTE ISNT RANDOM IF YOU REALLY CARE WHERE IT SHOULD BE!! DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THE HYPROCRY IN THIS STATEMENT!!! and i would be doing this if it wasnt a vote on me. ask any of the people ive played with before.

I've already explained myself. There is no hypocrisy in what I did. And now you're trying to bring in lame support for your "hypocrisy" argument. You're really trying to shove this case of yours down my throat, aren't you?

I need to reread Ice as well, it seems, in addition to Ortolan. Might be awhile before I get to that though. Things came up today, and may also come up tomorrow.

Still not seeing scum material in Mina.

[SaintKerrigan]

Speculation: Fate is just a special little fruitcake in general. Jester speculation is not helpful at this stage of the game. Not sure right now what to make of you for this speculation but want to keep it in mind. Open mental note, as it were.

Well, because of my speculation I currently don't plan on voting for Fate, despite him being quite scummy. If he's third party and can't hurt the town with his role, it's much better for us to leave him alone, at least initially. I'm also against a Fate wagon for the same reason, and if one pops up that'll be my argument against it.

It would really help, though, if Fate himself brought his ass down here and responded to what I've said (prediction:

He votes me

).

[SaintKerrigan]

Speculation: Fate is special but definitely NOT a fruitcake. He may also be avoiding a nightkill/lynch by being worthlessly scummy as to make it to endgame for once in god damn large theme career.

I don't know why SK thinks I would vote him just for speculating I'm a day/Night Jester(latter is an awesome idea btw) of some sorts, but I'd hate to disappoint.

1. So that's why you're deliberately making remarks like "I win when the good guys are gone" and "I would've asked in our QT but it wouldn't have been as effect a distancing vote." Because you were trying to

survive

to the endgame. Uh huh.

2. The prediction was a jibe at your behavior in this game.

[SaintKerrigan]

@SK: Why would you vote, unvote, and vote again in the same post? What is the purpose of that?

Because the first vote was a joke vote. Near the end of my post I put my vote back on someone I actually thought was scummy.

- This is all you get about the worship benefits in the OP : “Generally more worship is a good thing for the group receiving it. “

Did you even read Spyrex's post where he talks about his role/abilities? In either event, why is this scummy?

- SK has twice talked about the worship wincon - 104, 271. IMO it’s a slip.

Your first example is me thinking Fate had knowledge about worship wincons and trying to pry the info out of him. The second one was in response to Fate's speculation about worship wincons. Fail.

Try again when you've got something better, please.

- (Mina\Iece), SK, CMAR, MO, Parama, ortolan declare their worship targets in the thread. Lynch them if they've deviated from it.

I was about to tell you to go to hell, but my reply to Percy actually made me do a total mind shift.

The alternative is to not talk about worshipping, and have worship be effectively at random, I think, unless you are proposing a different alternative. Whilst it's true that not talking about worship prevents scum manipulation, I think it's better to try and look for scum manipulation than randomly empower particular pantheons.

Actually, this is a good point. If we know where everyone's votes have gone today and we get deviations from that, it may hint as to whether or not worship vote manipulation is in play. Okay, I'll go for this.

I intend to worship the Egyptian Gods.

Oh, and Fate? I said you were trying to die

without

making it obvious. So of course you'd try to appear like you were scumhunting, just to keep up the pretense.

Btw, why are people ignoring Nikanor?

[SaintKerrigan]

1. Question: How does deviating from a god faction find scum? I don't see why scum would lie about their worshiping, especially with the ambiguous nature of the 4 listed now. It doesn't mean that 1 god faction is scum. Also see my Albert 2.

I'm doing this mostly to see if scum have the ability to change worship votes. If people all say who they're going to worship and the percentages/ABR's worship vote chart say people did otherwise, we either have liars or people who can change worship votes. It'll give us info to work with.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Iec: Remind me again exactly what the difference between Ort and CMAR is? And don't give me "because I misvigged him in another game." That's a bad excuse.

[SaintKerrigan]

P.S. People are ignoring me because a) I'm town, and b) The cases against me are so weak as to be not worth addressing.

At least your posting frequency is higher than Monks and Masons, so you've got that going for ya.

I have a feeling that ungod aligned people didn't worship last night (As I claimed), which brought the even split.

Why didn't you bother to check and see who actually wrote this?

Jester speculation is stupid, SK. Since it doesn't end the game you might as well lynch scummy people if not you let scum get away with murder. I don't really understand why you think Fate is a jester in the first place, Sk but yeah.

I explained it earlier. And it is relevant because if he is a jester or some other third party role then we have to treat him differently than scum.

Just saw this cos Plum quoted it, this would be bad, but I don't think so. That'd mean it'd take place on an already alive player wouldn't it? I'm kinda hoping this isn't the case cos well playing without any flips sucks.

If true the info would be on a living player. We'll still get the real flip, but not until at least a day later.

@ People harping on DTM for lack of "Rule Infractions": where in the rules does it state that rule infractions will be publicly noted? Hint: I couldn't find a rule that said that. So cut it out.

"RVS but you don't vote SK who you call scummy? Yes. Good job on the backtrack. Nice job. Voting for the RVS over your scummy read."
It seems DT has indeed pointed out your tar correction vote there was outside random and on someone you ndidn't think was scum when you really had a scum read elsewhere. Mo was not putting his vote where his mouth was which he complained about when yelling at DT in the first place which i find highly hypocritical. Yay I really want to vote Mighty orbits for this and if Iec's response to my early comments are good enough in terms of they make me lessen my earlier suspicions of him in favor of MO being worse at holding back a vote from Mo's main suspicions then i will move from Iec to voting Mighty Orbits. Until i decide to move vote or not Will def

My answer be summed up by saying MO did not actually think I was scummy at that time. If you make me I'll go find the post where he said it.

Edit: Looks like you took that back on Page 25.

Guys DTM is just looking for any excuse to find someone suspicious, do you really not see this?

Nope. Actually, this quote looks more suspicious. DTM at least mostly avoids looking opportunistic.

FoS: Parama

OK, so, here's

the other infodump

:

Someone posted anonymously in our QT shortly after it opened under the name "Sky." He asked which of the players in the QT had a specific rolename, and he told us that we shouldn't worship ABR. I said we shouldn't give information like that because we weren't certain town, and (because I suspected him specifically for his behavior) asked who he was; he responded by repeating my text back to me. Then Kinetic posted in the QT indicating that we could not post anonymously. He has not returned since then.

(This is the "Mystery Man" I was talking about earlier.)

Because Sky refused to reveal himself and jumped into the QT early with explicit rolefishing and all that, I was suspicious of him; so, based on the times when Sky posted in our QT, I came up with a shortlist of 6 likely suspects using msutils. My random vote (dram) reflects one of the 6 original suspects. I've reduced the list to 4 by now.

OK, fast forward to ABR's dramatic appearance:

Hello SK. I have something for you up there comrade.

Fate, I have an inquiry for you up there as well.

When I saw these crumbs, they reminded me of Sky, but ABR wasn't on my shortlist of Sky suspects. But it looked to me like ABR might be something similar to him because of the "up there" flavor of the crumb. So I added ABR to my list, but mostly wanted to keep watching to evaluate what was going on.

I am deliberating whether I want to stay in the

shadows

this game...

Bold not added, so another crumb from ABR, but this one makes him look like someone different from Sky ("shadow" flavor). Also, Sky's stipulation that we shouldn't worship ABR would work if they knew one another's roles and were opposed in some way.

I tried crumbing back to ABR to see if he was Sky, after all:

Hmm. So I guess you're saying you're also delirium-immune? Like you're just

way above

all these fancy vote mechanics?

Bold added. But he didn't respond, so I stuck with my ABR/Sky dichotomy.

Factor in that ABR has shown (IMO) disproportionate antagonism toward my perceived faction claim, and I came up with the following hypothesis:

ABR and Sky are 3rd party players who are each associated with specific factions. One of ABR's is GOO, one of Sky's is the Norse gods. Their win condition involves their associated faction(s) "beating" the opposing faction(s) in some way (whether by eliminating them, or by getting more worship than them, or some combination).

This is an expanded version of the "Universe A" I mentioned in the last infodump. I think this is more likely than Sky and ABR being opposing scum faction leaders ala WoT because the fact that they appear to know one another's roles would be difficult to balance.

(There's also still one more QT poster who has yet to explicitly deny that s/he was Sky. I think Kinetic wouldn't allow that kind of lie, since anonymous QT posting is apparently illegal for us, and that kind of lie would reinforce the anonymity of the posting. So I'd like for him or her to do as much in the QT ASAP. His or her failure to do as much is already evident to anyone with access to our QT, so it's not as if this is much of an extra risk to him or her. If s/he feels otherwise, s/he should indicate why/that s/he does not intend to do so.)

Buuuuuuuuuulllllllllshiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. You're reaching here. Minus points for you.

Well, we know now that ABR knows Sky and Sky knows ABR, and that they appear to be opposed. So that all fits with the 3rd party angle.

We also know that ABR crumbed to Fate and SK. So that also fits.

If Sky crumbed in other QTs, that would finish with the parallelism.

More minus points for you for keeping this alive.

Holy crap I forgot CMAR was in this game. Quick look at him shows lots of action on the first RL day of the game, and almost none (except a worship vote) after that. However, I can sympathize with having to catch up to all this, so I won't sling him for now.

DTM you can dance all the fuck you want around it but the FACT of the matter is you and Nikanor made some limp dick worship votes EARLY. WAY TOO EARLY.

Last I checked, Nik was still holding on to his worship vote. Unless Nik's lying (and it's possible), your kicking up dust with that side. Maybe you've got something with DTM.

Edit: Seems like you figured this out on your own. Good boy!

Finally noticed this Katy comment through browsing Nik's stuff.

Nikanor shouldn't have been voting for Mina JUST to get some sort of magical information, he should vote for her because he thinks she's scum.

This sounds

exactly

like something scum would say. Harp on the "reason" why townies should vote and leap on anything that doesn't fit. A nice mimicry of scumhunting, but it's not gonna fly.

MAJOR FoS: Katy

Leaning towards disagreeing with the tl;dr Mina assertion that Iec is town, but I still need to do that reread.


Alright, this is my catchup-post up to the end of Page 26. Will finish the rest of it tomorrow when I can think straight.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Iec: And CMAR as town hasn't read scummy to you?

[SaintKerrigan]

Ketchup Post, Pt. 2

@ Fate: I've played with Nikscum before, too. I'm hardly ready to call him town.

I do agree with Nik regarding Katy though. I disagree with the idea that he's terrible scum.

Unvote, Vote: CMAR

(ort)

baa.

Dear god. I suspect Ort too, but this is just

awful

.

Fate, you know that I'm perfectly willing to follow your plays, except when I'm scum

(then I'm more likely to NK you)

Explain. Particularly the part in parentheses.

@ Tar: Elaboration would be good.

SaintKerrigan's Post 488 raises alarms for me (he apparently thinks that Fate looks scummy but won't be interested in voting for him) and he's spent a huge portion of his effort focused on how worship votes work compared to scumhunting

Psst! I'm not voting Fate because I think he's third party trying to off himself for an ability or wincon or something similar. Also, I've been doing a lot more than talking about worship vote stuff, and I've even dropped the matter. Pay attention, plz.

- SK is right when he says he was only responding to Fate. I retract my wincon slip case on SK.

What about this part of your case?

This is all you get about the worship benefits in the OP : “Generally more worship is a good thing for the group receiving it. “

Did you even read Spyrex's post where he talks about his role/abilities? In either event, why is this scummy?

I know you moved me to neutral, but I'd still like an answer to this, please.

SK, CMAR, Dramonic, etc. are scum as well, we get to them tomorrow.

You know, it's been a while. Refresh my mind on why I'm scum.

ALL THESE EGYPT+CHRISTIAN WORSHIPS MADE BY LESS THAN STELLAR NAMES MAKE ME ITCH. TELL ME WHY YOU DID NOT WORSHIP OLD GODS TO FLIP SPY INTO SOMETHING AWESOME.

Yeah I'll be voting Old Godsx2

1. Because I felt like it. *burp*

2. Explain the "x2" part of your worship vote.

I would also prefer if people don't worship the judea-christians.

Eh? Why?

I wonder if I should ask ABR to state who Sky is. If he fails to name someone on my list, that would mean he was just bluffing. It may also mean that he had been trying to support the theory that he was 3rd party.

Or you're off on your guesses/was pulling stuff out of your ass in the first place. Going dooooooown...

Do you think my interpretation of ABR and Sky is scummy, or just reaching? Because it sounds like the former, which I need you to explain to me.

Going towards scummy fast, because you're trying to use it to justify ABR = Sky = scum, when your whole theory is ridiculous and phony. The fact that you are trying to keep it alive is not helping you out...nor is your willingness to lynch CMAR. (Hint: His behavior does not make him scum at all.)

Opportunistic I am not. Finding the actual scums amongst gigantic walls of text I am.

Riiiiight...

DTM loses points for the CMAR vote.

I feel that I have been when I can respond and be caught up.

I apologize if it's not up to snuff for you, but at least I put in the effort to be caught up on all my games.

You certainly are doing more than other people here. I retract the point.

I'll be sending my worship vote now, as well.

For what group?

Unvote: DarkStalker
Vote: CryMeARiver

(Ortolan)

Three posts, lots of votes, and a five-day sabbatical with no posts here. Yeah, something's not right.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Fate: While you're at it, explain why CMAR and Dram are scum, too.

[SaintKerrigan]

@SaintKerrigan, I'll start with the more important thing. There's no way that you should hold off voting for someone you find scummy in a large game because you're worried that they've got some role where getting lynched helps them. It's just not going to happen enough to be worthwhile and it's much better to try to lynch people that you think are acting scummy. I strongly suggest you drop that line of reluctance to lynch.

I never said I'd never be willing to lynch Fate. I'm just not going to do it on D1, especially when there's better fish to fry.

As for your focus on the worship votes, I didn't say you weren't looking at anything else, you are. In fact, since I made my post you've been pretty good at looking at other things. Prior to my post though you had at least as much talk about the worship dynamic as any scum hunting. You also clearly hadn't dropped it when I made that post as the last post you had prior to that was Post 538 which I'd hardly call having dropped the topic. I do pay some attention to what happens in these games.

I was doing a fair amount of scumhunting before your post. Just because I talk a bunch about worship stuff doesn't mean I'm also not scumhunting.

Regarding DTMaster and his claimed post restriction, he was the one that said that he'd have the post restriction confirmed with his first infraction. That clearly hasn't happened. Dropping details like that lets scum get away with things that I'd rather not let them get away with. In this case there are enough reasons not to be putting direct pressure on him that I'm not planning to but it's not something which should be ignored in the long run.

It's something to keep an eye on. But since it's not in the rules, it's less likely to happen that way.

@SK
I'm curious now. I called CMAR out on active lurking. That's not a justifiable reason for my vote? Wut? A large part of the Ortlan case is this very argument, as Fate said.

In fact, I caught you out on this in Fire and Ice. Yes I just used a meta argument of you to impose on CMAR and Ort, but since when did: CMAR blatantly posting in other games after his "I'll catch up post" become a null-tell for any person?

No, he reads like a person who's behind in a high-post game and is having a hell of a time keeping up. I know what that's like. I'd link you, but it's an ongoing game.

[SaintKerrigan]

V/LA from playing games from today until early Saturday morning. I'll still be around for modding, but that's it.

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh, this game finally ended. GG, town.

Sucked to be killed N1, but I was actually sorta glad because by accident I illegally discovered that DarkStalker was scum (due to confusion on Ani's part in a game where both of us were scum), so I was relieved to not have to deal with the issue of knowing who one of the mafia was but not being able to tell anyone (at least until I dug up some honest dirt on them, which I seem to recall was scant at the time). Also, CMAR didn't abuse the deathtalk mechanic enough to relay the opinions of dead players.