Pick Your Power III: A Brave New World

[SerialClergyman]

Just a word of warning - the mor you say stuff like 'the (blah) role is in the people above me', you are hardclaiming your role and making it easier to identify power roles for the scum. Don't do it unless we decide to massclaim.

I think the wagon on Parama is probably town led, but I don't know if it's correct.

Socrates, is your theory that if sando invited me into the gmae, and he knew there was one spot left, if he were scum he'd know what alignment that spot was? I was thinking about your cryptic comments and I don't THINK he'd be more likely to want me in a game where he was scum if I was sure to be town. So that's leading me to good places on sando.

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry, wagon on *Prana

[SerialClergyman]

I'm opposed to a mass claim (ugh, I hate even saying the words) because I don't know what you guys intend to do with the setup. Sure, you could lock scum into their claims, but it's less useful in this game than it is in other games because any role can be scum. A normal massclaim that forces someone to say cop, it's not likely they're a cop AND a scum, but in this case their role is almost irrelevent to their alignment.

Plus there's some terrible logic around about town not choosing the pro-scum roles.

Every vanilla claim (and there have already been a couple of reckless ones) give the scum someone to not aim at at night FOR NO GAIN.

Sell me about the gain, and I'll support a mass claim, until then it's a bad idea.

[SerialClergyman]

Or everyone tells the truth, and we gain little-nothing.

[SerialClergyman]

I get that Fate. What I don't get is why having a smalltown setup would be better for us.

[SerialClergyman]

..

Smalltown is everyone knows everyone's role.

If the scum just claim EXACTLY WHAT THEY HAVE PICKED, it will be identical to smallville.

The situation you are describing is if the scum feel like they have to lie about their role, and I have no idea why they'd do that.

[SerialClergyman]

Am I blind or the only one that can see???

Of course scum would lie. They'll try to hide the vig so that they can get more nights of killing with it. They'll try to guess at a role above them and say "vanilla for cop" for instance if they are in fact one of the vigs, so it would take longer for us to find them. Of course that's a gambit hoping the cop is above them, etc.

WHY WOULD THEY DO ANY OF THIS?? Say manho claims vig. Does that make him scum or town? If the scum have a vig, they have no reason not to admit it. In fact, it probably makes them less likely to be lynched....

><

If I were scum, I wouln't try to guess at anything. I'd just SAY MY ROLE. And then kill all of the juiciest ones above me.

[SerialClergyman]

Vig was the first role taken by the number 1 town pick in PYP 1.

I'd do the same thing. Vig is very powerful (plus you don't actually have to argue about your suspects, you can just snipe them. Saves much wear and tear on keyboard).

[SerialClergyman]

I'm pretty sure Hoopla is town. I could be getting played but I don't know why she'd play like that as scum. I'm willing to bank on it.

I lol'd at sando's shoelaces comment.

Serial: If the scum team truthfully claims their role, then fuck ya mission successful. They lose all control over how they use their roles and the town can direct them at our leisure. (Side note, I have a low opinion of people who have a problem with directing power roles.) At the very least, they have to justify their use and can't get away with using it in an anti-town fashion.

Maybe you don't know this about me, but I'm Mr Massclaim . I love them. I think they're underutilised and there's numerous games where I've called for them realy early. But in a game where roles bear no relationship to alignment, I really don't get the point. I didn't read PYP2, so I could be wrong, but meh. As for town directing, I don't get much point in that either, tbh. I don't think you've got any chance of breaking the setup or anything similar.

Plus there are obvious ways to fakeclaim even with a bottom-up approach.

Anyways - who is scummy?

##Vote Pom

[SerialClergyman]

CMAR - imagine a role that would completely nullify the cop. Useful for scum?

Now imagine scum ACTUALLY PICKING THE COP, and getting the town cred for doing so.

I think you are seriously overestimating factions picking factional powers.

[SerialClergyman]

I assumed it was a (bad) joke

[SerialClergyman]

But you didn't know how early you picked?

[SerialClergyman]

*is suspicious*

[SerialClergyman]

The last thing we need is more vanilla claims.

[SerialClergyman]

Both fair points.

It boggles my mind that you wouldn't check the order though - that makes a difference as to WHAT you picked.

[SerialClergyman]

Hoopla, rather than being an avocade, orange you going to vote a pomegranate?

that wasn't just a hilarious pun, it was also an informed and worthwhile suggestion.

[SerialClergyman]

omg misspelt avocado, feel like I let down my joke, am disappoint

[SerialClergyman]

Hmm..

[science]
Zang, orange you going to vote a pomegranate?
[/science]

[SerialClergyman]

I think so.

[SerialClergyman]

Honestly, I don't give a crap either way, since I've already claimed.

So it's irrelevent to the game if you've already claimed?

Also, nice try with trying to get all the Nay'ers to use the mod's colour of red...

Serious remark or throwaway snideness?

Also Sando - did you ever answer my qyestion on why you would choose such a low secondary number when you saidi n thread that you recognised the value of choosing 1 or 2?

Nay, btw.

[SerialClergyman]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 12

Dramonic

- 3 - mb53, Ellibereth, Fate - (L-9)

Fate

- 1 - Socrates - (L-11)

Hoopla

- 1 - Zang - (L-11)

Manho

- 4 - PranaDevil, Pomegranate, Parama, Sando - (L-8)

mb53

- 1 - CryMeARiver - (L-11)

Pomegranate

- 4 - SerialClergyman, Hoopla, Faraday, Porkens - (L-8)

PranaDevil

- 1 - Dramonic - (L-11)

sorasgoof

- 2 - Super Awesome Mega Pimp!, DrippingGoofball - (L-10)

Players not voting: 12keyblade, Budja, Manho, sorasgoof, Zoiaum

Also, I was thinking overnight that I wouldn't be surprised if one scum was in the 'absent from queue thread' group, given that it means they are able to choose their numbers without openly rejecting the dice roll plan.

[SerialClergyman]

Zzzz massclaim.

I'd point out that if scum wanted to fake claim, any scum below Parama can claim vanilla for janitor. They can also claim vanilla for any one of the higher scum's choices.

However I still see little reason for that. I doubt their abilities are going to be that important.

[SerialClergyman]

So your suggestion, were a massclaim to occur, is that the doc will hopefully be a mason, and will protect the watcher, leaving other roles (cough cop cough) exposed?

In fact, you're going to massclaim then dictate where the doc aims so the scum have their choice of the rest?

But (and again I dispute scum's need to lie) even if their roles matched up - I'm assuming lots of roles will match up. I can count 4-5 vanilla claims already. How will you know whether they are lying scum or genuinetownies who didn't get a role a scum got?

Not to mention that a scum at position 5 could claim the role that a scum at position 12 has, while the scum at position 12 claims vanilla for scum at position 5.

So say 5 is watcher and 12 is even vig.
5 can claim even vig and 12 can claim vanilla for watcher and we'd have no idea that any of them were lying.
So the claim would seem to us to be 5 even vig and 12 vanilla.
Now apply this principle to ALL 5 SCUM and you can see the shitstorm of fakeclaims that are possible even on D1.

Your discussion (and bizarre appeal to MD) does not fill me with confidence that the town is going to achieve anythign by claiming. I don't think you guys are going to break the setup, I don't think a town-directed set of power roles will be better than a personally-directed set.

[SerialClergyman]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to Lynch : 12

Dramonic

- 3 - Fate, Ellibereth, mb53 - (L-9)

Fate

- 1 - Socrates - (L-11)

Hoopla

- 1 - Zang - (L-11)

manho

- 4 - Parama, PranaDevil, Pomegranate, Sando - (L-8)

mb53

- 1 - CryMeARiver - (L-11)

Pomegranate

- 4 - Porkens, Faraday, Hoopla, SerialClergyman - (L-8)

PranaDevil

- 1 - Dramonic - (L-11)

sorasgoof

- 2 - Super Awesome Mega Pimp!, DrippingGoofball - (L-10)

Players not voting:12keyblade, Budja, manho, sorasgoof, Zoiaum

No, I don't. Because the town is not informed, they don't know who the scum are, nor what the scum plan to do. And the town CONTAIN scum. The scum will have a serious contribution into what power roles do in your scenario.

Not just that, having a

published

list of power role actions means the scum are guaranteed to take their kills on our most powerful roles each night, without fear of being blocked/tracked/watched etc. You are nullifying the usefulness of many possible town roles because the scum would obviously not send someone assigned to be tracked to commit a kill, nor would they kill someone designated to be watched or protected.

I don't care that you're bored, your idea is stupid and you haven't been able to back it up. I don't think any of this has much bearing on alignment, I consider myself perfectly capabale of pro-town theory as scum. The point is the argument at hand, not our respective alignment, at least for the short term.

I don't know if I'd claim. If support was overwhelming I probably would, but on some ad-hoc majority 'vote' from one-lining lurkers, I don't know.

[SerialClergyman]

doc - will never save a life (scum never target doc's target)
cop - has target chosen for them by group (worse imo than their own decision).
vigs - same
watcher - will never catch scum (scum kill non-watched target)
tracker - will never catch scum. (scum choose someone other than tracked member to kill)
bomb - will never kill scum (scum never NK him)
rolecop - nothing much changes.
jailkeeper - will never save a life or block a kill. (scum don't target jailed member or allow jailed member to make kill)

So while I agree that the scum players will be able to do less with their roles, I count 5 power roles that are rendered completely useless if town, and many more that are lessened.

Plus - the value of scum having lots of these roles is in denying town the roles. The value of stopping the scum using their roles effectively doesn't make up for loss of role power for the town.

[SerialClergyman]

Sando makes several good points. I agree about creativity, and yes, PYP1 was the founder of my rolefishing theory.

I'd like to hear more about Fate's 'role-based info' before I vote him though. I did get town vibes from the MC discussion.

[SerialClergyman]

So much maths for such a little conclusion. People at the top are more likely to be power roles and scum, but notn ecesasrily by much. Gg'd.

I think the soras wagon is decent.

I personally think it's definitely time for Fate to stop playing whatever game he's playing and spit out everything. Because it's a huge distraction for me and probably everybody else that he keeps using that trigger word 'role-based' when I doubt he should be.

[SerialClergyman]

Zoiaum - what's with finding two people scummy, one of them specifically for not providing reasons with his vote, then joining the leading wagon without a reason?

[SerialClergyman]

And the logic is the wrong way round. If you think DGB is hyper-defending someone because she's scum with them, why would you vote the person she's defending rather than her? It's logically more sound (because scum can defend townies in a scummy way too) and while soras is a guranteed power role, dgb has claimed vanilla.

I think that, and therefore you, are very suspicious.

[SerialClergyman]

The fact that Fate plays the newbie card for him is not a point in his favour.

[SerialClergyman]

Nope, it's a bad excuse from a player with suspect reasoning. I'm not saying you're scum together, I'm saying I completely reject your proxy defense for him.

[SerialClergyman]

!!

*self-implodes and outs scummates*

[SerialClergyman]

PS I know you were making a point (one I agree with) about day 1 cases being all meh, but 27-28 is a pretty decent attack for a day 1 case imo.

[SerialClergyman]

Meh, I'm not hugely invested in Pom with the actual amount of substance we've got at the moment. I think Soras' wagon isn't bad (better than some so far.)

I'm more interested in getting more people involved and more accusations thrown. I'd recognise about half of the names on page 1 from their contribution so far to this 600 post thread.

[SerialClergyman]

Oh, and some people I recognise too readily.

[SerialClergyman]

<---- is irritated.

Fate, spell out your role info. The scum already know you are claiming some form of ability. There's no advantage to you soft claiming over hard claiming given it's so obvious. It's time to spill the beans on exactly what your role-based info is so we can actually analyse it and work out if it's worth lynching him.

[SerialClergyman]

Hey, I enjoyed the game for the brief period I was alive. I think the latter stages was marred by too many roles making the game not really mafia - pure scumhunting rarely came into it, hence all the NO U posts.

I concur, ditch the masons. Even without any strategy or manipulation of role choices, just having 2 confirmed town is seriously powerful.

I don't necessarily agree about the investigative roles - I think scum should have just picked more of them. With 5 scum you can bus one with a result and get yourself a win-the-game pass.

Vigs are good, but I'd make it so first person to pick vig gets odd, second person gets even. Otherwise it becomes wifom-y to even guess which one to choose, which i think is meh.

Perhaps giving one member of the mafia godfather status pre-picks is a solution to the investigative stuff? Something like that?

I still totally disagree that a massclaim would have been a good idea. I think with the killing power scum had (2 kills a night for 2 nights, and probably more) they could have rushed through all the investigates and we'd have been in more trouble.

[SerialClergyman]

In a game where there is stacks of role information, two confirmed town (that can HAVE ROLES) is too powerful, I think. Let alone actually strategising/coordinating drafts.