Left 4 Dead Mafia - Day 6?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

/confirm

[DizzyIzzyB13]

vote: Anon

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Any particular reason, Dizzy?

Last to confirm.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Anyone who gets an item should immediately claim and then use it at the next available opportunity. I shall take a failure to claim as proof that scum got it. Assuming that the effect of the item is at all provable, using the item will get us a confirmed townie.

Actually, anyone think we should do something more sophisticated than just scrambling to see who gets the item?

If we all agree on one player to get the item (say, someone who is a big question mark to the town) then we get a useful tool for determining that persons alignment.

Say we give someone a gun and then tell them to shoot someone else. We can confirm a townie and get a bonus lynch from that, and if they can't, we have a likely scum on our hands. (yea yea, watch out for a role blocker, I know.)

Incidentally, I expect a powerful scum team. Just putting that out there.

If your plan were possible, it would make it too easy to confirm townies. Thus, either the set-up is broken (which would be an annoyance) or there will be safeguards to ensure that scum have a fighting chance, thus making your plan flawed in some way.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

@Mod- Can you list a sample town PM?

I forgot about this for a second...

unvote, vote DeathNote

[DizzyIzzyB13]

unvote

I have a busy couple of days coming up. Hopefully, I'll be able to contribute to the game during that period but if not, I'll definitely be back up to speed at the weekend.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Sigh. This game is irritating so far.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Sigh. This game is irritating so far.

If people just post things like that, it will be. You said in your last post that you'd definitely be back up to speed by the weekend. Share your thoughts.

That was the point at which I finally managed to suffer through the thread so far. That was my initial thought.

Do you think that what Charlie said is a scumslip?

No, it's a stupid slip not a scum slip. It's something that would only be said by someone in a moment of stupidity, and could just as easily be said by someone town aligned (since it reflects sound town strategy to attempt to not seem scummy) or by someone scum aligned (since it reflects good scum strategy to attempt to not seem scummy). It's irrelevent to his alignment.

What is your response to DocPotter's suggestion in post 205 that your noting of DN's request for a sample PM was a well-timed deflection?

It's about as worthy of response as the statement "Glork posted that he hoped to be up to date with the game by the end of today right after the mod posted a voe count. Perhaps his post was a well-timed deflection so people wouldn't know the status of votes?".

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Okay, so the first six pages have been a clusterfuck of stupidity.

Major FoS: Izzy

You don't lurk for 9 pages then say the game is "irritating." Contribute, die, or get yourself replaced.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

I wasn't lurking. I had other priorities that meant I couldn't contribute for several days (which I made a post about). I read through the game to catch up. My comment that the game is irritating was no different to yours calling it a "clusterfuck of stupidity" after reading through it. Will you "Major FoS" yourself for doing the exact same thing?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Brilliant deduction there, Glork. Now how about explaining the anti-town part?

Uh, because if you were scum you wouldn't claim scum, would you?

Well, maybe

you

would. But typically, scum do not claim scum.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

And Scorates has been consistently opposed to Ifrinn, in his own jerkish, anti-town kinda way.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Grab: flashlight

[DizzyIzzyB13]

And Scorates has been consistently opposed to Ifrinn, in his own jerkish, anti-town kinda way.

You see, this is the pot calling the white china black. In what way are the shenanigans I pulled earlier anti-town, Mrs. Active lurker?

Are you still happy with your deathnote vote, Dizzy? How do you feel about his response? What do YOU think if Ifrinn? Who is your biggest scum read outside of those two? Why?

Uh, you proposed a plan that offered no benefit to the town whilst giving scum the identities of everyone who picked up an item (and thus, probably the only pro-town powers we get) and potentially allowing the scum to know what each item does in order that they better plan their future killing strategy. Oh yes, what a wonderfully not-anti-town-at-all plan THAT was.

Keep up. I unvoted DeathNote. I'm not voting for anyone right now. I unvoted when I was V/LA because hanging votes like that can be troublesome when you're not around to remove them, and his response to the pressure applied to him produced a reasonable answer that did not merit a revote.

Ifrinn is producing useful content, opposes anti-town play, is involved and is at the very least appearing to hunt scum. Town read.

My biggest scum read is the most anti-town player so far. Meaning you. Hi.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I have already explained what the pro-town benefit of my plan is and people have largely ignored it. I would keep arguing about it, but that horse is out of the stall and nothing productive will come from it.*

Because there are no pro-town benefits, and you're delusional if you think there are.

Frickin A, your response to my plan when I first suggested it was essentially "That plan is too powerful, so there must be a flaw, and thus we shouldn't do it." What happened to THAT reasoning, Dizzy?

sar·casm   /ˈsɑrkæzəm/ –noun
1.harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2.a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms.

I find it absolutely fascinating that I am your biggest scum read when this is word one that I have heard about it. I mean, I made that suggestion on what, page 3? Why did you wait until after Amished started pressuring Thatguy about it to suddenly pipe up about me being scummy, instead using your time to get all pissy with Glork? This is especially ridiculous because you aren't even voting me. You have yet to to push anything pro-actively and this post from you is purely reactive to my questioning.

I was v/la.

I also call bullshit on your line that Ifrinn is hunting scum.

He's doing a much better job of it than you. The fact that you proposed the stupid anti-town plan and are vehemently opposed to someone who's one of the more pro-town players so far is suspicious.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

My first scumspect is deathnote. So far his posts have been generally unhelpful, though I have not finished reading, andi do not like how he asked for a sample role pm.
I eould vote him but can't bold on this thing.

Is your would-be 'vote' on Deathnote at all becfause he requested a sample town Role PM, or is it simply because of the quality of his posts? I disagree with those who say that it was scummy to request the sample Role PM. What's your opinion on that matter?

Yeah, I don't get why you'd vote for him at this stage based on that post. I was the first to vote for him because of it, because it happened in the confirmation stage and struck me as curious, but, thanks to the pressure from votes, he provided a reasonable explanation. I would like to hear further reasoning behind a DeathNote vote.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Uh... why is CryMeARiver in this game when he's currently banned from Mafia sign-ups?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Uh... why is CryMeARiver in this game when he's currently banned from Mafia sign-ups?

It can be found here. Started on March 1st.

That's my point. I know why he was banned. I want to know why he's apprarently allowed to play in this game while he's banned, considering he joined while said ban is in place.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

You're not on probation. You're banned from sign-ups for majorly breaching the integrity of a game.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

And yet you have joined a game.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

It's relevent to the game. CryMeARiver should not be in it on account of his ban.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

At this point, Cry, you need to stop posting and get clarification from mith. I'm not a fan of playing with cheaters.

And the mod should start looking for a replacement, because if he doesn't go, I'm requesting replacement because of it.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Oh God, we're all doomed...

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Do you know what's

hilarious

? When I was looking back just there to see who first started speculating about the setup, do you know what I found?

Incidentally, I expect a powerful scum team. Just putting that out there.

So, irony of ironies, the first to speculate on the setup in any way was in fact Socrates.
God I love hypocrisy. It's such good entertainment when it blows up in your face.

Nice find.

I'd argue that he started even before that - his first three posts are questions regarding the game-specific rules. Given the nature of the mechanics he was questioning, I'd categorise that as some form of set-up speculation from him right off the bat.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I still don't understand why you would be reading yourself to see if you are scummy if you are town, unless you are trying to make sure that you aren't being scummy when you are scum.

Do you not see the benefit for the town of town players ensuring that what they are saying is unlikely to be interpreted in a scummy way, thus providing a distraction from the hunting of scum? I mean, I try to remember to check through my posts before I hit submit in order to make sure I've expressed myself clearly and haven't done or said anything that could give an inaccurate impression of my alignment. That's not to say scum don't do it (they kinda have to) or do it more often, but to act like it's an inherently anti-town thing baffles me.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

How do you feel about every person that has voted you? Is Bob is the only one who you feel is being disingenuous about riding your wagon? How about those that are riding the wagon but not pushing it?

Have you read my post 177? How about Bob's 280? Pom's 217? How do you feel about those cases and the people that they are on?

How do you feel about Dizzy, Amished, Jmj, Doc, Starbuck and Charlie?

Dizzy never voted me with intentions to lynch me. I don't even understand why she voted me to begin with.

Votes get reactions and lead to answers.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I have some family issues, and I've fallen a bit behind. I need to catch up before I can post anything useful at the moment. Sorry. Hopefully, this will be tonight, but I make no promises.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Catching up. I'm just posting responses to posts that catch my eye, stream of consciousness style.

Plus, nobody seems to care that Izzy is scum, and I'm currently too dis-interested to make a focused case.

This is the mantra of scum who can't get a wagon they've decided to push going.

I don't understand the gist of why people suspect jmj.

If you look at my Post 343 under the "On jmj" part at the bottom, you will find why I found jmj enough to vote for. In his Post 340, he writes a whole paragraph on how he doesn't feel confident enough to place a vote because he isn't sure they are actually scum, and this is after 14 PAGES of a game. On top of that, he lists people and reasons as to why he finds them suspicious, but doesn't vote. This is textbook fencesitting.

Reading comprehension is an under-rated skill in mafia. Either that, or you're deliberately taking stuff out of context in order to make your point, which is mildly disturbing.

You vote without 100% certainty often and repeatedly in Newbie 878. Most obviously in the RVS, but then several times throughout the thread you vote while obviously not being completely sure of it.
You again vote for Zachrulez without 100% certainty in Open 196. You were clearly not 100% certain about this vote because you reread and retracted that vote a very short time later.
Both times you were a Vanilla Townie, and both times you cast votes without complete certainty.

Newbie 878: I was 100% confident in my votes at the time. Every single one of my votes was placed witch 100% confidence based on the evidence that was there at the time. If they provided a sufficient rebuttal of the evidence, then I retracted my vote and went back to who I was 100% sure was scum until endgame. The problem with people reading my meta in that game is that they know everyone's roles at the time and can see more in what was said while I had to go off what I had at the time and my own thought processes.

Open 196: When I placed the vote, I was 100% confident zach was scum based on what I had read up to that point. When I went back the next day after I had slept, I noticed my confidence was based on me misreading what zach had wrote, and I went and removed my vote while admitting my mistake.

Now, while confident and certain are similar, they do not mean the same thing. I was confident in my votes in those games, but I was not certain. There are only three ways to be certain of someone's alignment: be part of the scum team, upon their death, and upon the endgame. I vote with confidence, not certainty, and I am not confident in any of my suspicions at the moment.

This is possibly the most ridicious defence of a ridiculous statement ever concocted in a mafia game. Kudos where it's deserved.

No, but that was an RVS vote and I don't count those.All my other votes were with 100% confidence. ARe you ever 100% confident that your RVS vote is on scum?

lol.

JMJ, right now, you are blatantly going out of your way to be a distraction. Please go back and re-read the thread and come up with some type of case on someone. You shouldn't be fencesitting this far along on Day 1.

This borders on coaching. Noted for future reference.

You will get cases from me as soon as the replacements comment on what they think their predecessors were thinking when they were posting.

"I'll show you mine if you show me yours" works for tits and dicks, not mafia. I hate it when people say the'll give their case later.

Vote JMJ

I both lol'ed and agreed.

Also, after

@bv130: I am still rereading and making notes. My rereads go me reading the wholr topic at a glance, then reading it in detail, then isoing everyone, so it takes me a while.

followed by

@everyone: I have never been very good at going and pulling information from many pages of info, unless I have something specific to look for. So, ask me questions and I will answer them.

Good catch on the contradiction.

So...

Scummy people right now would be Socrates, jmj, Tar, with a possibility of DeathNote.
The Iffrin wagon is completely overgrown and bad.
Setup/item speculation needs to end.

What my predecessor was thinking... He wasn't?

My only problems with this are a) dramonic is listed as replacing xofelf, who is a she and b) she only posted once in RVS, so I question whether dramonic was actually aware of what his replacement posted and whether the cheap joke was deflection rather than honesty.

Thank you dramonic. Any other replacements want to give their opinions on what they think their predecessors were thinking?

Useless noise masquerading as an apparent attempt to appear helpful. Also lol worthy considering it was a response to the previously quoted dramonic post.

well, in his defense xo posted two fluffs and CMAR is mindless

Ah. So he was aware, and I'd forgotten about CMAR who wasn't listed. Dammit.

I am asking the replacements, based on their observations of their predecessors posts plus their role pms, what they think their predecessors were thinking. I never said they knew, I merely want their opinions.

And why can't you post your cases while we wait for that information?

Because I have some cases that involve the replacements.

And.....


Again.... S-T-A-L-L-I-N-G

This particular string of posts illustrates the pointlessness of jmj. Unlike most of the other people who aren't contributing, who're (or at least claiming to be) v/la or something (myself included), he's here, involved in the game, posting useless promises of future analysis that have yet to appear (at least, by this point of the thread) without anycompelling explanation as to why we should wait and despite frequent requests for him to make himself useful.

Pressing question though

@DeathNote, jmj3000, DizzyIzzyB13, Charlie, thatguy00

Why are none of you voting?

In my case, I'd like a reason to vote for someone that over-rides my desire to annoy Glork for his inane, narrow-minded and incorrect opinion that people who aren't voting aren't useful. There's strategic value in a non-vote.

- Socrates is bugging me, but there's one obvious possible explanation for most of his behavior that I can't discount at this time.

And that explanation is?

I will not elaborate at this time.

Noted for future reference. I don't think it's scummy to not explain yourself straight away if doing so would potentially harm the town, but if you're going to play that card, you should make sure you answer it later.

There's also one other issue with that activity post, come to think of it... why does bv310 appear so worried about his own activity level? The obvious possibility is that bv310 is active lurking, and I generally don't see that come from a townie.

Final note: HOW long has it been since bv310 has posted? AFAICT, he's not been replaced, yet not posted for at least a week.

Mod: Please prod bv310

I was worried about my activity level because I tend to get called out for lurking a lot.

Talk about convenient timing... Jesus

Amished took the words right out of my mouth. Considering the reply came 16 minutes after Tar's post, it's indicative of active lurking, the more scummy version of lurking since it rules out most of the mitigating circumstances behind lurking that make lurking itself a null-tell.

Vote: almightybob

Deadline is in three days. Lets get something done.

First reaction that this is awfullyt random considering a lack of DN posts so far and the lack of explanation for why he's voting almightybob.

Alright DN, why vote almightybob then and not give any reasoning? As you said, deadline is in 3 days. In order to lynch correctly, we need discussion, not votes thrown on with no reasoning behind them. If you have posted a case against almightybob, link to it for us please.

More jmj hypocricy. You can't demand a case from someone without being willing to share your own.

I have stated multiple times, the reasons I am not giving any cases is because they have mostly been laid out by other people. Socrates has been pointed out as being scummy multiple times due to the set-up speculation and trying to get an item grabbing order set-up BEFORE Ifrinn had even said anything. I just asked one of my suspects for a case, that person being DN, after they vote without giving a reason, on top of them asking in the thread for a sample pm, in addition to refusing to answer a question from YOU Starbuck and one from Charlie. As for bv, he is quickly climbing my scum ladder due to his continued absence, even though people have posed questions to him and said they were suspicious of him. As for Charlie, he went and goes "I read my post to make sure it didn't sound scummy". Why does a townie need to worry about that. If you look too town, you are suspicious, should your posts should sound just a little scummy. As to Dizzy, when I said I was suspicious of her, that was when I hadn't fully reread the topic. After going back and rereading, I see she has scumhunted, and posted a lot more content, so I am going to remove my suspicion. There, happy Starbuck?

Things to note from this post:

a) The defence that "other people have made my case for me" does not jive with his prior comments, and is a bad defence anyway. Town should try and contribute their own thoughts on cases and make clear what they agree with, something jmj is failing to do quite epically.

b) Hey, he's posting thoughts on people. Finally. Good job.

c) Some of his opinions are ridiculous, particularly his absurd statement that I have apparently scum hunted and posted more content, when most of my posting in this game has been attempting to get rid of CMAR because he's banned and a cheating bastard to boot. I don't think he could honestly go from suspecting me to thinking I'm town based on the content of the posts he's referring to (even though I disagree with any basis on which he's suspected me in the first place).

Your reaching... hard. Perhaps you hope to accomplish some last ditch effort to thrust your suspicions off on me.

almightybob was my first FoS.

I would say AlmightyBob kinda worries me, partially an OMGUS but mostly because he reasoning just doesn't make sense to me. Like he thinks he can get away with pushing for an easy lynch.

This is a poor response from DN, considering the tone of his post that he wants to push for a lynch tbefore deadline against almightybob. Entirely unconvincing and a very weak case.

I have stated multiple times, the reasons I am not giving any cases is because they have mostly been laid out by other people. Socrates has been pointed out as being scummy multiple times due to the set-up speculation and trying to get an item grabbing order set-up BEFORE Ifrinn had even said anything. I just asked one of my suspects for a case, that person being DN, after they vote without giving a reason, on top of them asking in the thread for a sample pm, in addition to refusing to answer a question from YOU Starbuck and one from Charlie. As for bv, he is quickly climbing my scum ladder due to his continued absence, even though people have posed questions to him and said they were suspicious of him. As for Charlie, he went and goes "I read my post to make sure it didn't sound scummy". Why does a townie need to worry about that. If you look too town, you are suspicious, should your posts should sound just a little scummy. As to Dizzy, when I said I was suspicious of her, that was when I hadn't fully reread the topic. After going back and rereading, I see she has scumhunted, and posted a lot more content, so I am going to remove my suspicion. There, happy Starbuck?

This post is slightly better than your earlier ones, but if you have time to type up something like this, why can't you take a bit more time and make/explain a good case on your top suspect?

This is a very good point from Pomegranate.

Ok DN, you answered my question, now how about answering Starbuck's and Charlie's? Or, if you have already answered them, why don't you link us to the answers? I don't think finding someone acummy for not answering three questions, and basing their vote off of OMGUS reasons when they could go back and add more content to their case is reaching.

Definite improvement in jmj's play. He's finally questioning someone and challenging potentially scummy play. Much later than would have been helpful, though.

Glork: I've had a vote on someone for about 250 of the 290 posts in the game so far.

So why remove it after 10+ pages? Leave it or put it elsewhere, but make sure we know where your top suspicions lie at all times. No protown player should ever object to that.

*luv*

SOME ELSE GETS IT!!! I swear I yell at people every game and there are still people who refuse to vote untill "they are completely sure" or some bull like that (like jmj).

unvote

Got a short read done

Vote bv
FoS Izzy
FoS Pom

@mod - Request deadline extension

Tomorrow I will get up a case, now im going to go study.

How does not voting conflict with ensuring your vote is where your top suspicions lie when you don't have any strong suspicions or aren't involved enough in the game to have relevent suspicions? When you consider how much stock players liek you and Glork are putting in the location of votes, it's actually a pro-town thing to do since it doesn't provide potentially misleading information that could lead to bad things happening to the town. My vote was taken off because it was a) serving no purpose and b) I was going to be disconnected from the game for a while. It's stayed there because it's the best reflection of my opinions on the game. That is not anti-town behaviour.

Furry, in your experience, how much does unwillingness to vote correlate to a players alignment (if at all)?

--

I think being purely passive and not doing anything to hunt scum like jmj is very anti-town and bad strategy, but if he actually believes what he is saying then I have a hard time calling him scum for it, regardless about how I feel about that playstyle.

Part of the reason that I thought it was scummy though is 1) that he wasn't doing anything in absence of the vote. He just wasn't posting at all, really. I can accept not voting so long as you still find a way to be an active participant, but he didn't. And 2) When I asked him for his three suspects, his answers for those suspects were the definition of "safe". His suspicion of me (I felt) was completely cribbed from izzy's post directly before his, Deathnote (god, that wagon needed to die a long time ago), and Izzy (for literally no reason, but she had received some flack from other posters).

I could potentially interpret this as scum not willing to commit anywhere and doesn't have a clear strategy on how he was going to get through the day and just BS'ed some weak reads to keep his options open.

But I could also interpret it as a townie this just hasn't put much thought in the game and is easily influence by other posters.

Hrm...

I need moar data.

Hmm. I quite like this post by Socrates. It's probably his best in teh game from my point of view.

Where can I look to get a thorough look at the BV case? It seemed a lot of it has to do with the fact that he is lurking and acknowledged that?

I've seen him in multiple games while looking around the site and the impression I got of him as a player is that of a self conscious lurker who is aware of his low posting rate and doesn't like that. His play this game has sorta fit in with that so I never really had a problem with him so far, though I don't like that he still isn't doing anything is still sitting on the DN wagon (I think?).

Of course, I am shooting purely from the hip and its possible that that interpretation of BV wouldn't actually pan out on a thorough meta.

Another useful post from Socrates. While his information may or may not be accurate, at least there appears to be a good intentionb behind the post in order to better inform the town. He's redeeming himself a bit in my eyes from his earlier anti-town behaviour.

Regarding my "setup speculation". What was my pro-scum intentions by asking the mod those questions? Why would I do it in the thread as scum, rather than through PM? I asked those questions because they affected the viability of my plan.

Well, the rules do not mention scum day talk, which most mods would include in the ruleset if it was going to happen as it's not a standard mechanic. Thus, if you were scum, the only way to spread the word once the game had begun was to ask in public so all the scum would have access to the information during day one.

The reason I said that people should stop setup speculation is because multiple people were being very transparent about what their roles are. Seriously, some people might have well have posted "I AM VANILLA" in big letters in their posts.

And you would expect people with power roles to not act like vanillas? If we do have power roles involved, I would certainly expect them to behave otherwise in order to conceal themselves from scum unless and untill it is time for them to reveal themselves.

unvote: Whoever
Vote: Jmj

This is a good wagon.

How very helpful.

This game has been very disjointed and there have been enough annoying distractions that I'm having a hard time pinning down a list of likely scums. I have, however, picked out a few players who are on my "Likely Protown" list:
Tar
Almightybob
DeathNote
Charlie

You may note that Pom's not on this list, even though I called her "very likely protown" in an earlier post. Long story short, I changed my mind and wish to reserve judgment pending further content from her.

Questions:

Which of Tar or Nelly is more responsible for this town read?

Why DeathNote?

Does the fact that Charlie's essentially dropped off the map for about a week affect this read or not, and why?

Furry, in your experience, how much does unwillingness to vote correlate to a players alignment (if at all)?

Little if any as its an anti-town playstyle tell more then an alignment tell, usually its repeted by the same handful of players regardless of what role they have. Not voting is simply a way of withholding your thoughts and opinions from the town. Information is good.

I completely disagree, the content of a player's posts is far more important in regards to discerning their opinions, since crafting a convincing set of arguments is far harder for scum than a simple vote. Besides which, people vote for reasons other than just suspicion. In my opinion, votes are more useful for discerning patterns of behaviour which can be used to find scum than determining a player's opinions on the game.

@early DN wagon (Izzy, AMB, Infrinn, bv, thatguy, charlie) - Would you have wanted a DN quicklynch if you could of had one?

In my case, no, which is why my vote was removed when I went v/la as there were enough votes on the wagon to maintain the pressure I wanted to put on him without running the risk of my vote contributing to an unwanted quicklynch because I would be unable to remove it.

Wait, I'm being targeted for something that bv has also done and he gets a free pass? He sits there, gives a case amounting to saying his vote was a pressure vote, then comments that whenever he sees something scummy that DN has done, it's already under discussion, but he doesn't add to said discussion? At least Dizzy has given an excuse for not contributing to discussion, bv hasn't given one. He;s one of my suspects, though admittedly not one of my strongest, but since it seems everyone is giving DN and Socrates a free pass, and seems intent on lynching me, y'all will find some way to make this vote paint me scummier, but

vote: bv

.

I agree that bv isn't doing much, but that's no excuse. Trying to move the negative attention to a different player isn't good. So I'll say that I agree with your vote, but that doens't change my stance on you. Look at it this way: Of you're doing the same thing as bv, and you think that bv is scummy, why aren't you scummy too (if you admit to doing the same thing)?

Pomegranate sums up the problem with this post more than adequately. Seems almost like a desperate attempt to avoid being lynched, which leads to an unfavorable interpretation in the context of jmj's prior behaviour.

I don't quite understand Furry. What, in your eyes, is the distinction between Jmj and Bv that makes one significantly better than the other? Both have lurked and deigned not to scumhunt at all, with the only significant difference in their play so far that I have seen is that Bv shamelessly bandwagoned at the beginning of the game under the pre-text of pressure, which is something that townies do all the time.

Actually if you read them both in iso, jmj has done more to explain his thoughts and suspicions then bv has, even if he refused to vote untill just now. While jmj isnt the epitome of town, he is way behind bv (and at least a handful others) on the list of who I want lynched.

Jmj only started being more verbose about his thoughts as a reflex to the pressure that he was receiving. If a wagon hadn't been building on him, I am confident that he would have kept on behaving as he was before. And changing one's behavior in response to pressure isn't overtly indicative of being town in any way because any scum with half a brain would know to do it.

This is the second time that I have seen jmj post something that contains thoughts that are taken from the post directly before his.

But bv has reacted to pressure by simply resuming lurking, while jmj has reacted in a manner more likely to be useful to the town whether he's town or scum (if he's town, then he's legitimately attempted to scum hunt, while if he's scum, he's provided more data from which we can interpolate who his buddies are). Meanwhile, bv is denying us information in response to pressure. I'd rather keep jmj if he's going to provide information in response to pressure over a useless bv.

He does seem to post things that are similar to people posting just before him, though I don't think it's necessarily scummy to agree with people, esppecially considering town works towards a common goal and therefore are more likely to have conplimentary opinions.

@Mod- Can you list a sample town PM?

I forgot about this for a second...

unvote, vote DeathNote

Izzy was a part of the DN wagon, although she backed off for apartently no reason at all while "catching up". The unvote was explained finally eight days later.

Soon after glork gets on her for lurking around a bit and complaining about the game which is met by a "so did you". The difference though is that glork actually has done something that has been useful in some way shape or form, while Izzy I may as well be using a RNG to guess who she thinks is suspicious.

At least I dont have to guess who she thinks is scum though anymore since its socrates for

And Scorates has been consistently opposed to Ifrinn, in his own jerkish, anti-town kinda way.

yeah... im not sure if thats a case or not but ok! Thats really about it though. Not voting right now, as far as I can tell only thinks socra is suspicious for being "anti-town" and suspecting a town read of hers.

unvote
Vote Izzy

This is a better wagon then the bv one, and with the extension there might be time to get it done.

What a horrifically weak case that is. I'm not sure what else to say to it.

Grab: Dual Pistols

Well, that was a helpful, insightful retort to the suspicion being cast your way. Outstanding work there, bv.

Ok, bv, you need to quit worrying about your activity level and grabbing items and start answering and responding to the accusations against you. Out of the 3 items that have come up so far, you have grabbed for two of them.

I'll try and do a Player-by-player and an iso of someone tomorrow. It's a bit late to start reading now.

Also, what happened to you doing this? You said you were going to do that 2 weeks ago, and it never surfaced. You just seem to be trying to act like you are town. I've got a feeling you are scum grabbing the items so you can destroy them. I, as town, can't let that happen, so I'm going to be that last person to grab for it.

Grab: Dual Pistols

Another jmj post that demonstrates why he's a much worse lynch than bv at this point. Picking up on previous posts and the way he's challenging bv is definitely edging his way towards a town read at the moment.

As for bv, I'd like to add to jmj's point by saying he made that statement about posting something tomorrow and then disappeared for 11 days without so much as a comment on being v/la. This is not symptomatic of lurking town.

I am surprised that so many items have been up for grab no day 1. Do you think it will be this way for all days?

Also, I am for claiming who received items the next day phase, or who didn't for that matter.

I concur with the surprise as to how many items have been made available, and I would like to hear Socrates respond to this and how it atffects how he is interpreting the game, since he appears to diverge from my own opinions as to what it means, especially if this rate is kept up for future days and the fact that players can use abilities gathered from items for as long as they stay alive.

I am opposed to claiming on items for the obvious reasons that the longer we can keep players with abilities alive, the more benefit town can get from them and in order for that to happen, we need to ensure that the item holders are treated just like power-roles from regular mafia games, not claiming unless it is absolutely necessary.

Glrok, could you summarize the thread for me in 30 words or less (but at least 20 words)?

P.S. DeathNote asking for a sample Townie PM publicly is not suspicious.

Welcome to the game! Why Glork, and why those limitations?

Hey! I'm up to date! Sweet!

vote: bv310

. jmj has proven to be useful. He has not, and his response to pressure has been to shut down and deny the town data, without providing any mitigating circumstances. I half expect him to request replacement on the verge of being lynched.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

ACK! Double post!

MOD: Can you delete one of them, please?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Although for future reference Dizzy, if you preview your post and see it's a wall, please cut down on the quotes to reduce the overall length. EG where you quote Furry's entire post just to say the case is weak - just say "Furry's <post number> case is weak".

Oh God, I *loathe* that posting style. It makes it even less likely that people are going to read it, or not what you're talking about because it adds so muhc time and effort that quoting avoids. It's just unfortunate that I got behind enough to need to post something lthat long.

Also, I disagree with part of your final conclusion. jmj hasn't been useful. He's just been marginally less useless than bv. I would still be happy with a jmj lynch today.

Useful might be the optimistic way of putting it, but he has added something to the discussion, even if it isn't much. For that reason, I don't see how you can justify lynching jmj over bv. I mean... he wouldn't be the worst lynch, but there's an obvious, better lynch available.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

That's a very good question, almightbob. Why are you convinced bv is town, and why do you want to kill him because of it?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I don't think he's Town. I think he's scum.
My understanding is that scum will be able to destroy the item at Night. Therefore if we lynched the winning scum during the day, they would not have opportunity to destroy it and the item would revert to Town.

Honestly, it wasn't really a serious suggestion. Killing anyone to get items back at this stage wouldn't work, because it could be anyone of the 4 that has it.

Although one part of it was true - I would not entrust Town-bv with guns.

That is an interesting interpretation, that nobody else has expressed. Not entirely sure I buy it but it would explain your actions if you're pro-town.

Oh God, I *loathe* that posting style. It makes it even less likely that people are going to read it, or not what you're talking about because it adds so muhc time and effort that quoting avoids. It's just unfortunate that I got behind enough to need to post something lthat long.

I would much rather read something with post numbers than have to read a 30-line post I've already read, just to see the context for a 1-line response.
Maybe that's just me though, I have a fairly good memory so if someone just says "your case on me in post XXX is crap" I'll usually either remember the case or be happy to take the 30 seconds to look it up.

I have no problems with walls of text. Plus, I really think the extra effort and irritation is something that puts off a lot of players. I know sometimes I'll just entirely ignore posts that do that when I'm not in the mood for them.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Plus, nobody seems to care that Izzy is scum, and I'm currently too dis-interested to make a focused case.

This is the mantra of scum who can't get a wagon they've decided to push going.

Not really. You obviously don't understand how extremely fucking lazy I am.

That doesn't change the fact that it's something scum frequently say. It's not a smoking gun, nor the basis for a case but it's something that could certainly be put into the context of a scum case, if the rest of teh evidence is there. It's not for you... yet.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Plus, nobody seems to care that Izzy is scum, and I'm currently too dis-interested to make a focused case.

This is the mantra of scum who can't get a wagon they've decided to push going.

Not really. You obviously don't understand how extremely fucking lazy I am.

That doesn't change the fact that it's something scum frequently say. It's not a smoking gun, nor the basis for a case but it's something that could certainly be put into the context of a scum case, if the rest of teh evidence is there. It's not for you... yet.

Glrok would totally make that play as town.

He's also totally make that play as scum. It doesn't mean anything devoid of context either way.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

If the night goes like I plan, then I don't need to worry about an NK. Unless I'm way off base with how this Bile works. Even if I fail, then at least I'm not hurting the town.

If you're wrong (and obviously, if you're town), then you're denying town an ability.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

If the night goes like I plan, then I don't need to worry about an NK. Unless I'm way off base with how this Bile works. Even if I fail, then at least I'm not hurting the town.

If you're wrong (and obviously, if you're town), then you're denying town an ability.

If I'm wrong, then the item goes back up for grabs.

Not if you USE it, it doesn't. You would have to use it to be wrong about it.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

And why can't scum claim that? They got it, then destroyed it.

The way that he attempted to grab an item once he already had one seems much more likely to come from a mafioso, because a scumbag can destroy multiple things at night, whilst a townie can only use one at a time. a scumbag has the motive to go for a second item; a townie does not.

Explain your opinions on lynching claimed power roles.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Explain your opinions on lynching claimed power roles.

Whoa whoa whoa. Where did I miss bv claiming a power role?

Items confer abilities for the remainder of the game. bv has claimed posession of an item. This means bv has claimed to have an ability for the length of the game (while he's alive). What else do you think he is?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Eeep, I forgot I was voting for bnv...

unvote

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I'm voting bv and not dramonic using my logic because bv has been in this game since the beginning, dramonic just recently replaced in. I don't see any contribution by bv except him just going along with the flow of town and not voicing his own opinions. Also, I'm at L-2, your vote glork is the 8th on me going by the latest vote count.

Explain why you believe it is a good idea to lynch a claimed power role.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I'm not sure, but I think DN said he didn't get it.

I believe you're referring to this post following the Bile being awarded.

So the item has already be taken then? Why are we not stating who has it?

That doesn't seem definitively denying he has it, and it's perfectly possible that the person who did grab it would be asking this question, either because they're unsure as to whether they should claim in light of the earlier discussion, or because they're breadcrumbing a later claim.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I have not claimed to receive an item,

nor do I cc BVs claim to get the bile

.

What do you mean?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Ah, thank you.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

That was predictable.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Part of me is really itching for a mass nameclaim.

Mmm, this might be a good idea, but I don't think we'd get unanimity on a decision, and I don't think massclaim is a good idea if there are people who object to it.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I am curious who would object to it and why.

There are legitimate reasons to object, not all of which are scummy. Those reasons aren't necessarily appropriate.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I am curious who would object to it and why.

There are legitimate reasons to object, not all of which are scummy. Those reasons aren't necessarily appropriate to this game, though.

EBWOP.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Francis

: I hate hospitals.

The Eleventh Vote Count of Day One

DeathNote (2): Ifrinn, bv310
bv310 (3): jmj3000, DizzyIzzyB13, almightybob
jmj3000 (8): Starbuck, Socrates, DocPotter, Amished, thatguy00, dramonic, Pomegranate, Tarhalindur
almightybob (2): DeathNote, Steam-Powered Shovel
DizzyIzzyB13 (1): Furry
Amished (1): Glork

Not voting (1): Charlie

With 18 alive, it takes 10 votes to lynch.

Deadline: April 1st at 7:00PM.

I unvoted.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I would love for people who think an Izzy lynch is actually good play to make a case that goes beyond "Izzy had issues for a while and thus wasn't posting as much as we'd like". Make a case that isn't total fail so I can defend myself against a mislynch and we can move on to catching scum, please.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Furry, you're missing a rather interesting point - almighty bob isn't voting for jmj and had jumped off him to vote for bv but had yet to jump back. Curious.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Also... Furry, I don't think your theory is necessarily applicable to this game, since it assumes that scum could realistically claim to be a power role without getting lynched for it.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

AMB - Why arent you voting jmj?

Because I felt that bv was a better lynch, so I moved my vote to him.
Hey wait - if your theory only applies to the first person to be wagoned for a particular reason, then we can have a bv lynch! Right?

No. bv is a claimed power role.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Also... Furry, I don't think your theory is necessarily applicable to this game, since it assumes that scum could realistically claim to be a power role without getting lynched for it.

Im not enitrely sure what you are trying to say here

If there are no power roles, then scum can hardly claim to be one, can they?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Ifrinn has not picked up prod, and will be replaced if 2nd prod is not answered to. Votecount to come later.

If that's the case, can we get a deadline extension if/when we get a replacement.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Deadline: April 1st at 7:00PM.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:51 pm Post subject: 32

Deadline: April 1st at 7:00PM.

Don't you mean 27 hours?

Also, me being snarky is a nulltell, though I expect you'll want to hear that from somebody else.

My experience of playing with Glork before has been filled with Snark. I'm pretty sure I've played with him as town and scum, too.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Mmm, if it comes down to a straight choice, I'll take an almightybob wagon over a jmj wagon, but I'm holding off moving my vote 'till I've done a re-read on Bob.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

As far as I can tell, this is Furry's "jmj is town" case in full. Please point out if I've missed any posts of him making arguments relevent to this issue.

Actually if you read them both in iso, jmj has done more to explain his thoughts and suspicions then bv has, even if he refused to vote untill just now. While jmj isnt the epitome of town, he is way behind bv (and at least a handful others) on the list of who I want lynched.

True, but my point of he is actually taking stances stands. Bv has called one player scum on a weak tell from the early game, said the vote was for pressure, and since that point has made no attempts to either flesh out a case, or take a stance on any other player.

Quite a bit of gut really, but if you want me to go through and try and back it up I will. Just something about the way he is playing make me pretty confident he is just town in this situation.

-Slapdash explaination for whoever was asking is that he got wagoned for not doing anything, witholding suspects, etc etc. Him getting wagoned for that (over bv, pom, dram and thatguy, who all read similar) is what makes him town. The one of the large group that gets picked on for a tell they all commited usually is town.

I can even argue the "doomed VT" claim if I feel like it

What's that?

Its an awesome theory I use that actually works very well.

In scenarios like this one, a vanilla claim isnt going to get a wagon moving off you given the presence of an impending deadline. Most people are from the (stupid) school of "lynch all VT claims", most people at deadline will vote in a way that a lynch is positively ensured, even if it means they are moving against their best judgement. These two factor combined result in the "doomed vanilla town" claim.

Its a claim that will, almost beyond doubt, result in the players lynch given that they claim VT (so half the votes arent moving) and its at deadline (so the other half arent moving). It is actually playing against the scum WC to do this when they could make a move to out a role, or at least out quite a bit of benificial flavor for scum in these types of games.

I have seen this before, I have seen wagons get drug off VTs when people actually realize what is going on, most of the time though we get people like you saying "oh well lets just lynch him" while refusing to really think about what a VT claim means in this situation.

If you want to expand this to another tier we have a quoted PM. If he is scum and it was a fakeclaim, scum just burned one. In some games scum will get fewer then members of the team, so they would have just burned one.

jmj is town, I am completely serious here. Unvote him now. He isnt the epitome of town but that doesnt change his alignment.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

As far as I can tell, this is Furry's "jmj is town" case in full. Please point out if I've missed any posts of him making arguments relevent to this issue.

First quote - never provides any examples, so we have no idea where these explained thoughts and suspicions were. However, from context I suspect she means this post. It's the first time jmj really says anything about who he suspects, and if you'll look closely you'll notice that it's just the regurgitated thoughts and suspicions of what everyone else had said up till that point. I believe Socrates described jmj's suspect list as "the definition of safe".

He did stuff before that one post you've linked to. It's also curiously nitpicky to dismiss his points just because he hasn't linked to examples of posts that were happening around that point in the game anyway.

Second quote - not a post about why jmj is Town, rather a post about why bv is scum.

The first line is about jmj, in the context of a comparison as to why he is less scummy than bv.

Third quote - exactly what I've described: saying jmj is Town with no justification apart from a vague reference to his play.

I can't argue with that. I'm not a fan of the "gut" assertion either, even if it's sometimes the only way to explain something.

Fourth quote - I disagree with this assertion.

This requires more detail than just dismissing the point.

Fifth quote - just a meta discussion, nothing specific to jmj being Town in it.

That is a horrifically poor counter argyument. It's not a meta discussion it's a theory discussion, brought up to illustrate why he believes jmj's behaviour fits a predictable pattern that would indicate he is town. How you can dismiss that as being relevent to the jmj discussion is mindboggling.

That's not to say he's right, mind. I don't think he is, particularly in the context of this game. But the manner of your response is just... wrong.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I wish there was a stronger candidate for lynch at this point. There are at least three people who're reading about the same level of scumminess without there being a clear leader and none of them really have much momentum behind them.

Ick.

vote: almightybob

, I guess. He's the closest to a lynch at the moment, and he's as good a candidate as any at this point. Glork overstates his Amished case and there's always thatguy who's doing a brilliant job of adding nothing to the game. I'd be happy to switch to either of those two in order to get a lynch right now, since a no lynch is a poor result for town at this point.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Hey guys, I've been kind of reading over, and I'll get something up tomorrow, just letting you all know, been busy last couple of days. I'm still around, and I'll be active tomorrow.

Any chance of this actually appearing before deadline?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I want to hear some kind of vote related stance from: Ifrinn, Doc, Thatguy, Amished, Pom, and Bv

now

.

Why those people in particular? What about dramonic, who's barely added anything after replacing in over a week ago and whose prior incarnations were xofelf who did nothing and CryMeARiver who's a cheat and banned?

What about DeathNote, who an ISO examination reveals has pretty much just defended himself over the whole PM request thing and expressed very few opinions so far?

You neglected both of those, despite the fact they've been posting with little to no content. Surely you'd want opinions from them, too?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Hey guys, I've been kind of reading over, and I'll get something up tomorrow, just letting you all know, been busy last couple of days. I'm still around, and I'll be active tomorrow.

Any chance of this actually appearing before deadline?

Why draw attention of Thatguy specifically? Why not Doc or Ifrinn, who have also made similar promises but haven't done anything?

Ifrinn's most recent post promising content came just over two hours ago, promised content by a point we've yet to rech and at least contained a couple of notes on his thoughts at that point. DocPotter has not, to the best of my knowledge actually promised content at any point.

Thatguy, on the other hand, posted a couple of days ago, promising content the following day which has passed, and I queried him in a vain hope that we might actually get something from him before the end of the day.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I find the timing of Furry and Socrates moves to Amished irritating. They've not expressed any opinion that Bob is town or any less scummy, in a situation where we're less than 24 hours from a deadline no lynch and they've effectively derailed the Bob wagon that appeared to be town's best chance to get a lynch.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I'm willing to move if it'll give us a lynch, but if Amished flips town, the way Socrates and Furry flipped their votes is certainly going to warrant further attention tomorrow. Furry in particular, since Furryscum would certainly be consistent with his attitude towards jmj.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I think that makes Amished L-3. Sigh.

unvote, vote: Amished

. L-2.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I think the speed isn't as big an issue considering it's a lynch for a deadline that passes in about 3 and a half hours. There's certainly worrying aspects to it, such as the Furry and Socrates vote switches that gave the Amished wagon momentum, but I've been saying for a while that I'd take Amished as a deadline lynch.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

FoSing someone for contributing to a no lynch is kinda hypocritical considering you derailed the best wagon we had earlier today.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Starbuck, pop quiz. Which of these is true?

A) Amished lynch > no lynch
B) Amished lynch < no lynch
C) Amished lynch = no lynch

Correct answers are worth 1 point. Incorrect answers are worth 0 points. Not answering the question is accrues a -1 point penalty, so guessing is encouraged.

Being a dick when you've helpd derail a wagon with less than 12 hours to go to deadline is highly questionable behaviour.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Starbuck, pop quiz. Which of these is true?

A) Amished lynch > no lynch
B) Amished lynch < no lynch
C) Amished lynch = no lynch

Correct answers are worth 1 point. Incorrect answers are worth 0 points. Not answering the question is accrues a -1 point penalty, so guessing is encouraged.

Being a dick when you've helpd derail a wagon with less than 12 hours to go to deadline is highly questionable behaviour.

You know, for someone who doesn't hesitate to show attitude towards other people, you sure do offend quite easily.

If you are seriously upset because I asked her a question in a non-standard fashion, you really need to chill out.

Someone is touchy about his attitude.

FoSing someone for contributing to a no lynch is kinda hypocritical considering you derailed the best wagon we had earlier today.

That's not at all hypocritical. I am trying to contribute to a lynch. JMJ has zero shot of being lynched now, and Starbuck seems content to settle for no lynch.

No Lynch D1 is the worst thing that could possibly happen.

That was aimed at Furry, not you. You've been pushing Amished for ages. Furry and Socrates just jumped over, killing the momentum behind the Bob wagon and forcing the town to generate momentum behind a new wagon with very little time remaining. If we end up with a no lynch, or Amished turns up town, those guys don't look good.

No Lynch D1 is the worst thing that could possibly happen.

Yes. The way that Starbuck is accusing people of derailing a wagon shortly before deadline- no. Another wagon was being pushed, and Amished has as many votes as jmj did, IIRC.

And far less time to generate a lynch in. If we end up no lynching, Furry and Socrates are more responsible for it than Starbuck.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Well, that was interesting.

Since bv outed himself as getting the bile, I think he should claim what he did with it.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Also...

Mod, you might want to edit the title of the thread since it's day 2 now, just so people are aware of it.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

@Starbuck, thatguy, bv310: What do you think of me?

I'd say the fact that two of the people responsible for pushing for your lynch have a) both died and b) both flipped town doesn't exact;ly work in your favour.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

The bile acts as a redirect, allowing me to send one player's night actions to a different target. I chose not to use it last night, since I half-expected to get NK'd.

I did a little bit of research on this, and im not entirely sure this works. From what I could tell it would only redirect scum to other people. I was actually expecting a lightning rod varient that directs all anti-town actions to a player. Also does it have any flavor?

Lets say you would use it, what would an action submittal look like?

See, I could see it being used as a redirect action because the effect of Boomer bile is to draw Infected to it, and it's often used in-game to draw infected away from attacking the survivors. Your explanation makes sense.

However, looking at last nights kills, I noticed that one was killed by om nomming on brains, which seems like a standard kill. The other was killed by mauling. What happens when a Survivor gets covered in Boomer bile? They attract a horde and get mauled to death.

I am mildly concerned by this.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

It'd also mean he lied for no reason and that concerns me.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Hence my explanations. It changes the attack pattern of common infected (and can summon a horde of them), directing them to attack anything covered in it, even other infected. It doesn't affect special infected, iirc, which is why your lightning rod idea doesn't seem all that likely to me. It will either be used as a vig kill (which I believe would be consistent with the mauling death), or as a redirect.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Well, I'm not entirely convinced either, but I can accept that occasionally, fudging of flavour is necessary to ensure aq balanced game.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

There were two night kills last night, what's your point?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Do elaborate, Furry. Why do you want to lynch thatguy and why do you think it differs from what Amished is saying?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Mix of being on the awful early DN wagon,

It wasn't an awful wagon. It achieved exactly what it was started to do.

and being one of the people to stick on the jmj wagon yesterday, yet did not get back on it today.

Mmm, I would like an exmplanation of that from Amished.

He is far more concerned with defending himself then pushing a case.

Defensiveness is not a scumtell.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I can not stress enough how BADLY this game needs a wagon going right now. People need to start voting dram or thatguy now, or give some very good reasons as to why they are not voting.

We all saw good and well what stalling does to a game, it leads to massive clusterfucks and deadline no lynches. That isnt happening twice. Start something

Don't misattribute the deadline no lynch to stalling. The deadline no lynch was caused by aq viable wagon being derealied by certain people flipping over to start a new wagon at a point that was too late for the new wagon to gain sufficient traction for a lynch. Don't pin this on people who aren't you, because you're the only person alive who was primarily responsible for the aforementioned no lynch.

Why do you feel people need to vote for dramonic or thatguy now? I find it interesting that you single these two "wagons" out, considering they do not have wagons. It can't be that you want to push discussion along by starting a wagon on anybody, because then you would have included Amished and Starbuck, one who has 2 vote sna thus the most in the game so far and one who has an equal number of votes to the two you singled out. If it is because you believe that dramonic and thatguy are scum, instead of just telling people they need to wagon those people, you should be trying to persuade them WHY they should be voting for these people.

Even so, why have you gone off an Amished lynch? You were for it yesterday, even when it was too late to really get an Amished wagon started. What's changed? The night phase didn't do him any favours, since it's clear that whichever of the NKs weas made by scum (or both, since I guess we can't rule out the slight possibility based on the flavour) benefitted him and the MS site meta is currently to ignore such kills because of WIFOM, meaning in the current climate, it is easily possible that scum could kill one or both and expect to get away with it. Nothing he has done today has really changed much. Yet... you've mostly ignored him, which is curious considering you were willing to help derail yesterday's possible lynch in order to push for him at the last second.

Blah. I'm not happy with your play today at all.

vote: Furry

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Why do you feel people need to vote for dramonic or thatguy now? I find it interesting that you single these two "wagons" out, considering they do not have wagons. It can't be that you want to push discussion along by starting a wagon on anybody, because then you would have included Amished and Starbuck, one who has 2 vote sna thus the most in the game so far and one who has an equal number of votes to the two you singled out. If it is because you believe that dramonic and thatguy are scum, instead of just telling people they need to wagon those people, you should be trying to persuade them WHY they should be voting for these people.

They are some of the only people getting pressure, so yeah they are technically wagons at this point. I dont want an Amish or SB lynch, so im not saying wagon them. I have laid out reasoning to vote dram and thatguy multiple times, if you want me to go quote myself I gladly will.

And yet they gather no votes. I find it interesting how you failed to make your dramonic case until after you'd voted for him and that when asked to make your case against thatguy (which you've done once), it was horrifically weak and entirely unconvincing.You're not making compelling, convincing cases. If you believe they sare scum, try harder.

Even so, why have you gone off an Amished lynch? You were for it yesterday, even when it was too late to really get an Amished wagon started. What's changed? The night phase didn't do him any favours, since it's clear that whichever of the NKs weas made by scum (or both, since I guess we can't rule out the slight possibility based on the flavour) benefitted him and the MS site meta is currently to ignore such kills because of WIFOM, meaning in the current climate, it is easily possible that scum could kill one or both and expect to get away with it. Nothing he has done today has really changed much. Yet... you've mostly ignored him, which is curious considering you were willing to help derail yesterday's possible lynch in order to push for him at the last second.

Amish lynch was in large part an anti-jmj wagon. Upon examination of it and bob wagon, it was more of a disagreement over the jmj wagon that I was even on bob to start, while I could slightly argue Amish-scum. Thats why im not back on it today. Glork was obviously town, I dont think many if any people would have had a good reason to keep him around as scum. Socrates I dont know why anyone made that kill.

Socrates is easy. There are a number of Socrates posts that indicate he may have had a power role that he turned out to have, which a scum team could pick up on in order to decide he is a good kill. On the other hand, he was the first person to jump to the Amished wagon that prevented a lynch yesterday, which I assume would have attracted a Vig's attention attention. I know if I had vig powers, I'd have probably killed Socrates last night.

As for your statements on the Amished wagon...

Deadline is tomorrow not today

unvote
vote almightybob

Last ditch not-jmj wagon, and a decent one either way

Nine and a half hours later (or, 16 hours and 10 minutes before deadline):

I will also submit that if Bob is town, JMJ is definitely town. JMJ as scum would have voted for Bob, no questions asked. Instead, he went after someone with virtually no heat on him -- Charlie. This tells me that JMJ is following his suspicions, not trying to merely save his own ass.

Oh wow, look at that. Another reason jmj is town, he isnt just trying to save himself. I think bob-scum would have still resulted in a bob vote from him too.

*continues to beat this into the stubborn folks*

I am completely willing to vote Amish over jmj. I am also willing to vote just about every other player in the game then jmj though. Actually heck with it.

unvote
Vote Amished

You're very into going with votes over expressed opinions. Your expressed opinion at that point in the game was "anyone but jmj". This is pretty much a townie opinion, since lynch is better than no lynch and you stated that you believed jmj is town. Pro-town opinions is good.

However... then, with just over SIXTEEN HOURS to go until the deadline, you participated in the derailment of the Bob wagon in order to hop onto the failed Amished wagon. You did this with 16 hours to go until thee deadline, to a wagon that lacked the strength and time to work its way from wagon to lynch, based on play in the game.

And now you're backing off from that decision. I don't like this. At all.

Also ive suddenly realized Charlie is town, who gets to join the ranks of DN, Starbuck and jmj as "dont get lynched".

And yet again you don't even explain why you hold an opinion.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Mix of being on the awful early DN wagon,

It wasn't an awful wagon. It achieved exactly what it was started to do.

Which was? It was started on a really stupid tell as far as I am concerned.

I made the initial vote in order to get DeathNote to explain his request for the sample PM, which he eventually did. (Although, I was off that wagon at that point because I went v/la and didn't want to leave a pressure vote unattended in case of quick lynch). I can't speak for anyone else who followed me, but they made it easier to get the answer I wanted.

and being one of the people to stick on the jmj wagon yesterday, yet did not get back on it today.

Mmm, I would like an exmplanation of that from Amished.

That was also DP, thatguy and bob. Lets not forget them.

Also true, but you only mentioned Amished in teh post I was responding to.

He is far more concerned with defending himself then pushing a case.

Defensiveness is not a scumtell.

I did not say defensiveness is a scumtell. I actually am a big fan of lynch players who claim overdefensive is a scumtell.

What is scummy here is that he is doing absolutely nothing to scumhunt. Even if you are getting attacked by someone its fairly simple to push a wagon at the same time.

That's frankly bullshit. When someone is being attacked, the natural inclination is to move to a defensive mindset, to interpreted everything as if it were an attack. Under those circumstance, it can be incredibly difficult to scum hunt, because all your effort goes towards defending yourself. Just because it might be easy for you does not mean it is the same for everybody else, and is an example of an "everybody reacts the same way" approach that is bad for town in this game and bad for the game of mafia in general.

Now conspiracy theory makes me want to get a dram lynch before a thatguy lynch, as there are people whos alignments become much more obvious from that flip then tg one.

I find your tendency to make pronouncements without explanation or backing irritating, as the statement itself is less content than the reasoning behind it, which you refuse to reveal.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I just skimmed up to the current thing and I followed pretty much everything Dizzy said until this part

Socrates is easy.

There are a number of Socrates posts that indicate he may have had a power role that he turned out to have

, which a scum team could pick up on in order to decide he is a good kill. On the other hand, he was the first person to jump to the Amished wagon that prevented a lynch yesterday, which I assume would have attracted a Vig's attention attention. I know if I had vig powers,

I'd have probably killed Socrates last night.

Ok, this rubs be wrong for two reasons: you'd vig somebody that you thought hinted at a power role; and isn't the Soc kill getting mobbed/mauled or something? That doesn't sound like a vig at all. Kill flavor is one of the easiest things to keep from a video game to a MS game. Hopefully I can catch up more.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Based on what was known by the point we no lynched yesterday, I absolutely would have vigged Socrates. He was playing scummily, prevented us from lynching yesterday, and the available information with regards the set-up lead me to conclude that any possible hints of his having a power role were simply a set-up for a future fake-claim.

Scum, however, have access to more knowledge of the set-up on account of knowing the strength of the scum team and consideration of what would be necessary to balance the game out. Thus, they could read the same things and come to an alternate, and ultimately correct, interpretation of his posting.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I wasn't looking. They are simply there.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Read the first post. All items are reusable.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

All items multiple-use:And without wanting to get sucked into a pointless (and potentially scum-benefiting) item speculation debate - in L4D/L4D2, the flashlight only antagonises one Special Infected, the Witch. The Boomer Bile paints

any

enemy's silhouette in purple and makes them immediately and obviously visible to every Survivor. Everyone on the Survivor team can immediately spot a Boomered enemy, even through walls, and know "Oh OK, there is a Tank/Hunter/Jockey/Whatever over there".
Therefore the Bile makes more flavour sense as a Cop investigation than the flashlight does.

Mmm... this paragraph has made me consider the possibility of third party involvement.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I just skimmed up to the current thing and I followed pretty much everything Dizzy said until this part

Socrates is easy.

There are a number of Socrates posts that indicate he may have had a power role that he turned out to have

, which a scum team could pick up on in order to decide he is a good kill. On the other hand, he was the first person to jump to the Amished wagon that prevented a lynch yesterday, which I assume would have attracted a Vig's attention attention. I know if I had vig powers,

I'd have probably killed Socrates last night.

Ok, this rubs be wrong for two reasons: you'd vig somebody that you thought hinted at a power role; and isn't the Soc kill getting mobbed/mauled or something? That doesn't sound like a vig at all. Kill flavor is one of the easiest things to keep from a video game to a MS game. Hopefully I can catch up more.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Based on what was known by the point we no lynched yesterday, I absolutely would have vigged Socrates. He was playing scummily, prevented us from lynching yesterday, and the available information with regards the set-up lead me to conclude that any possible hints of his having a power role were simply a set-up for a future fake-claim.

No. The Amished wagon had as many players at the end of the day as did the jmj wagon had earlier. I would never have vigged Socrates- he was obviously pro-town (looking) if he could convince many players to join a wagon like that.

That's quite the interpretation when the only reason people moved over was Socrates and Furry moving their votes in the manner of yelling fire in a crowded theater - when not everyone had time to get out. He didn't achieve pro-town persuasion, he moved people by fear. This is not pro-town behaviour.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Mmm... this paragraph has made me consider the possibility of third party involvement.

Meant to ask this earlier - why?

It inspired consideration of the notion that witches can be justified flavourwise as a third party, and that's something worth considering with two killing roles.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Sweet, I have two votes...

vote: furry

again, then. :p

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Seriously?

I'm pretty well aware of L4D, and the cast of characters, and the special infected.

There is only so many believable roles, I've contemplated the idea of a nameclaim since day one, and have thought personally it's a good idea.

How many characters are there really? I think anybody who is really nervous about the idea has something to hide, and they're nervous about what they're going to have to make up.

lol. There are easily enough named characters to cover the 18 players in this game. Nameclaim is unlikely to help us, and will be more useful to scum now we know there are actual power roles included as well.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I like crypto's catch-up post.

There are easily enough named characters to cover the 18 players in this game.

If this is true, then name claim is definitely just bad play.

Put it this way - we've got 10 likely, claimed or confirmed roles already (the 8 playable survivors, Jimmy Gibbs jr. and Keith). Off the top of my head, I can think of 4 named characters you can actually meet, plus at least 5 more names used as flavour to the game's universe.

Which actually makes me wonder about jmj's claim, since Jimmy Gibbs jr. only appears in the games as an infected, and it's not like he's needed to fill out roles...

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Wow.

Follow up with JMJ on that OMGUS, try not to look too oppourtunistic.

Funny how my vote at the end of day 1 never shifted from JMJ after his nameclaim. Must be impossible to have more then one suspect at a time though.

I KNOW a nameclaim will clear me

, you obviously don't, furry.

unvote, vote: thatguy

[DizzyIzzyB13]

If thatguy has reached L-2, and is convinced a name claim will clear him, now seems like a good time for thatguy to claim.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

So, why exactly are you giving thatguy the opportunity to fix his mistake instead of allowing him ot hang himself?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

So, why exactly are you giving thatguy the opportunity to fix his mistake instead of allowing him ot hang himself?

Not sure if that's directed at me, and not sure exactly what it's asking, the wording is unclear. Are you asking why I didn't vote for him in my above post? My vote is already on him.

No, I meant why the hell are people (you and Furry, specifically) giving him the information he needs to correct the error in his claim instead of letting him make further mistakes in order to confirm he is scum.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I think you're putting two and two together and ending up with 5. Starbuck's statement doesn't indicate anything more than the fact that she feels the claim is valid based upon the fact that she's claiming to be one of the other four members of the band, all of which are probably being used as flavour.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

For me, the image he used for his quoteclaim pretty much confirmed to me that he's faked that role PM. thatguy needs to die.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

This is a stupid argument on account of there being enough named survivors in Left 4 Dead to cover every player in this game and more. Scum will have safeclaims which cannot be countered. Your argument is null and void. You are scum, prepare to die.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I'd wager Starbuck is scum too if she's clearing you that way.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

EBWOP: I mean, the mod clearly had access to better pictures that would lead to less role confusion that just don't happen to appear on page one of a Google image search for "midnight riders".

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I do have the same image, which is why I can see why you could get confused.

Quote claim. Now.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

What's more questionable is why the mod would include that picture for those two and something completely different that's more clear for other members of the band. As in, this:

Hello,

DizzyIzzyB13

!

You are

Ox

,

Survivor

!



You're the drummer for one of the best goddamn bands ever, the Midnight Riders. You've been left for dead just like everyone else... but if anyone knows how to crack a few skulls, it's a drummer.

As a survivor, you have no special abilities... yet. Of course, you have your voice and your vote... but you may also gain special abilities by trying to scoop up some items. Be warned, though... scum may also try to get an item, and if they do, they'll destroy it.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Game thread is here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13603

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Ack... EBWOP:

The image in my role PM is taken from the Left 4 Dead Wiki. Where is it found? On a page for the Midnight Riders, right next to images of the other band members in the same style, in a much clearly, more visible and more impressive manner than those included in the other role PMs. I do not see any reason why the mod would not choose to use those images in place of that image. I would, however, understand why scum would pick out that image, given that it is found on the first page of a Google image search for "midnight riders" (second from the right on the second row down).

Also... claiming you got a one shot investigation from an item, using it up and then NOT claiming it at the start of the next day? Dubious behaviour. It's not like you have to worry about protecting yourself for future investigations. I find this claim... worrisome.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Dizzy, If you are going to get on something as minute as the location of the picture. I would like you to go back to my Post 999 and right click it. Take a look at the picture address -- http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/5/58 ... _super.png .

That's not from a Wiki.

I know. That's why when thatguy flips scum, you're next.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Also... claiming you got a one shot investigation from an item, using it up and then NOT claiming it at the start of the next day? Dubious behaviour. It's not like you have to worry about protecting yourself for future investigations. I find this claim... worrisome.

I knew others had a pro-town read on him, but I didn't want to give it away to the scum to give them an easy target. Apparently, that's too hard for you to understand?

It makes no sense. How on earth does hiding the information help the town? Answer: it doesn't. How does announcing it help scum? Answer: IT doesn't,m it forces them to either kill him, thus preventing them from killing someone else or leave an essentially cleared townie alive, thus making it easier for town to identify scum. There is no upside to what you apparently did.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Obviously I didn't quote mine before getting you to quote yours, if you wish scum to make a mistake you don't show them what it is beforehand so they can avoid making it.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Or, y'know... DIESCUMDIE.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Oh and also, Dizzy: One paragraph, why you are not scum despite your rolePM differing from two Townie's rolePM. Go.

For me, the image he used for his quoteclaim pretty much confirmed to me that he's faked that role PM.

One townie's role PM. Starbuck's alignment has not been verified. People voted with me for thatguy because my Role PM had more in common with theirs re: source of PM images than theirs, and expecting consistency in Role PMs from the mod is not a scummy assumption to make. Feel free to lynch me if you don't believe me. It just means that scum get two townie lynches because the mod was inconsistent with Role PMS.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

So, can we conclude that we have multiple scum factions here? The "om nomming" of brains does not seem like a vig type way to kill, and whoever has that kill isn't a part of the known scum faction. It also seems apparent that the known scum faction killed both Furry and Socrates (unless they have, like, no kill or whatever...). To the best of my knowledge, their shared votes (just counting the Furry votes, note the ones made by the person he replaced) were almightybob, Amished and me. So... those are the people that, if scum, would have motivation to go after them. Hmm.

vote Amished

[DizzyIzzyB13]

See Dizzy, your reasoning of same source of picture is just like saying "the third word of the fourth sentence of the town PM is".

If you are really going to get that fucking critical, then maybe you need to give up on mafia for awhile.

Inconsistency between a claim PM and a known town PM (which in my case would y'know, be mine) is a perfectly logical reason to disbelieve a claim. It's not unreasonable to expect the mod to be consistent on such things, especially in cases where it'd prevent such things as thatguy fluffing his claim by confusing which member of the band he was because his picture was unclear.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Inconsistency between a claim PM and a known town PM [...] is a perfectly logical reason to disbelieve a claim.

Good news for you is I agree. Bad one is that the known town PM is Thatguy, you're the disbelievable claim.

And it makes sense for Izzyscum to essentially ensure she gets lynched just to get a lynch on someone who could easily have been lynched without any intervention because...?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Inconsistency between a claim PM and a known town PM [...] is a perfectly logical reason to disbelieve a claim.

... what are you, a jester?

Don't be dense.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Bob is reaching awfully hard.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Inconsistency between a claim PM and a known town PM [...] is a perfectly logical reason to disbelieve a claim.

Good news for you is I agree. Bad one is that the known town PM is Thatguy, you're the disbelievable claim.

And it makes sense for Izzyscum to essentially ensure she gets lynched just to get a lynch on someone who could easily have been lynched without any intervention because...?

Yeah, that's the problem, it doesn't
However you 3 having diverging pics make me suspicious.

Yes, well... look how that turned out yesterday. I'm more than a little irritated that if I get lynched today, a large part of the reason we lose a townie will be that the mod was inconsistent with those fucking pictures.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Gee, I don't know... how about to protect players you think are town from anti-town actions?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I know (via my one shot flashlight) that JMJ is town. Right now, I know definitely that we have a 50% shot of the defribrillator ending up in town hands.

If you know you and JMJ are town, why only 50%?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Unvote
Vote: DeathNote

Why do you know for a fact JMJ got the item, and why do you know it must be a doc protect, and why are you ever under the impression it somehow confirms him?

First off, you misunderstood what I said. I was saying whomever gets the defibrillator to use it on JMJ as he is cleared by Starbuck. I assumed a defibrillator would be a doc protection of some sort.

But, assuming that is not what I meant. Did you really just vote me because I claimed to know someone got an item and what that item does? Is that your basis for scum now?

He's only cleared by Starbuck if Starbuck is confirmed as town with an investigation. This has not been confirmed.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

And when I flip town, that argumnent goes out of the window.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Am I the onlty person who is get increasingly irritated by SPS's refusal to type Glork's name properly?

Stop it. Now.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I really dislike Amished's entirely dismissive attitude towards following dead townies. I mean... I understand why he's doing it, because giving credence to that notion makes it look very bad for him, but still... people don't die for no reason. Scum (or at least, non-incompetent scum) choose to kill players for some reason, and looking for any common reason for dead players to have died is absolutely a legitimate scum-hunting tool, particularly at the moment when the site meta is such that framing specific players is for the most part an ineffective scum strategy.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Am I the onlty person who is get increasingly irritated by SPS's refusal to type Glork's name properly?

Stop it. Now.

I'm not going to stop, sorry. It's just something I do.

Deliberately trying to irritate other players is not a pro-town action.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Very.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Dizzy is spending way too much energy grumbling about "Glrok." Very needless distraction as far as I'm concerned, but I'm not sure what to make of it insofar as scum active lurking versus general irritation non-indicative of alignment.

It's an irritation that negatively affects my ability to read him properly, so hardly a needless distraction. The needless distraction is SPS's insistence on attempting to irritate the town.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

GRABBEN PEEEEEEEEELZ

, bitches.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

That's L-2, I believe. Let me know when it's L-1 so I can make a thorough claim and the town can hopefully avoid a mislynch.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

That's L-2, I believe. Let me know when it's L-1 so I can make a

thorough

claim and the town can hopefully avoid a mislynch.

Keyword, Bob.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Keyword, Bob.

I didn't realise a claim could get more thorough than showing a rolePM.

Even considering the particular mechanics of this game?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Sigh. Item claims, you silly people. Although, I'm waiting on hearing back the answer to a question from the mod that would be very, very helpful since depending on the answer, I believe that I can clear myself by surviving until tomorrow.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Izzy's suggesting she can clear herself with the pills, bob. That's definitely something worth listening to.

Yeah, by surviving till tomorrow. Does it seem likely to you that the scum would let Town-Izzy get cleared? A living, cleared Townie? If she was still alive tomorrow after saying what she just said, I wouldn't be thinking "oh she must be cleared Town", I'd be thinking "oh she's probably lying scum".

At least if we lynch her and she really is Town, we'll get the pills back, and potentially clear someone else without having to paint a target on their back beforehand. Plus there's the very likely possibility that she's just scum trying to BS one more Day.

I'll wait to see what she says, but frankly it looks like if Izzy actually is Town, she just signed her own death warrant.

Three points as to the "death warrant" comment:

a) the liklihood of Doc protects, given a med kit and defibrilator have been put in play of which I would assume one would be a Doc protect, plus potential power roles.

b) the existence of multiple scum factions means that there's a possibility that neither or both will try and kill me, one of which entirely benefits town by taking away a scum kill and the other will enable me to survive in order to become confirmed town.

c) if I'm going to be killed tonight anyway, then town can get control of an extra kill by lynching someone other than me and having me die tonight.

If I survive until tomorrow, I should be able to unambiguously clear myself, and it should be able to be demonstrated by the town. Assuming, of course, the mod confirms I can target myself, which I'm waiting to hear back from them about.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

In the video game, pills add temporary health to character, which makes them harder to kill. In this game, pills make it harder to lynch someone, by adding one to the total required to lynch a player.

Incidently... I noticed upon re-reading the PM in order to ensure I was claiming them correctly that according to the role PM, they can be used at the

start

of each day. I have PMed the mod to see if this means I would have to wait until the next day would start, because if so, it would mean there would be no concern with town losing them if I die tonight.

I suppose if I can't use them on myself, I could still confirm myself by using them on someone else, although that would obviously be much riskier for the town than making me put my own neck on the line. The way I see it is if I survive until tomorrow morning, I should declare the person they've been used on, and then we should calculate how many votes would be needed to lynch that person normally and create a list of people who should fvote for that person, in order that the voting is controlled and we avoid an accidental lynch. Plus, if anyone not on the list votes for that person, we'll have found scum. When that person reaches the number of votes required for a lynch under normal circumstances, we wait until the mod posts a vote count without a lynch, at which point, we'd have a confirmed townie.

As I said, it's not entirely clear if I can take the pills myself, though, although that would obviously be the ideal scenario since I'd be forced to put my own neck on the line in order to prove myself rather than exposing a potential townie to danger.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Ugh, apparently I'm not allowed to use them on myself, but the mod has confirmed that they're used at the start of the day, thus ensuring that using my plan, the town gets the back if I die tonight. So really, there's no reason to not attempt to pull of my plan to clear myself.

Also: the mod has made it clear that they'll work on non-town players, so I will definitely be cleared by the pills working, but the person they are used on won't be.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

We should probably agree on who you use them on. That way, if you're scum, we don't lose a lynch.

I concur, although we may have an issue if scum kill that person overnight.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

What he means is if I'm scum, the person who gets lynched because I couldn't use the pills on them would be someone of the town's choosing, not mine.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

If I'm lying, I'll be conclusively proven to be scum tomorrow. Town can still carry out a lynch in the meantime, since there's surely more than just the one scum left.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Why are you assuming that three suvivors die? Do you not trust town to lynch scum?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Which is?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I think you're seeing something that isn't there.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Really now? There are two flaws: One, the one I mentioned, but I still don't feel comfortable flat out saying, and 2) the scum can kill the person you would be giving the pills to. If y'all still can't see it in a little while, then I will go ahead and say it.

I don't give them the pills until *after* the night phase, so if there's a shortlist generated that's long enough to ensure that at least one of them will survive scum night kills, it's fine.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Which I believe would negate the possibility of me being role-blocked too, as far as I can tell.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Which is?

Roleblocking, Redirection, Rebound, whatever.

Just noticed, am I the only one who finds it weird that pills are YET another DV item? The pistols were a DV the next day too.

HoS: Dizzy

And how likely do you believe it is that there's a day roleblocker?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

dramonic: I think you need to re-read my claim - there aren't two items granting a double vote as far as I'm aware. The pills and the pistols have opposite effects. The pistols added an extra vote to a wagon when a person reaches L-1 and the bearer was on that wagon, thus making it easier to lynch someone. The pills, on the other hand, increase the lynch threshold for the target by one - so, for example, if there were 13 players left alive, a lynch would require 8 votes instead of 7. Thus, the pills make it harder to lynch someone. In fact, in this context, I would argue that the power granted by the pistols adds credence to my claim because these two powers provide a kind of balance.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Actually, after looking at how much time we have left until deadline, I am going to point out the flaw I have been talking about, using Dizzy's own posts to reinforce it. The first time I noticed the flaw was in post 1319:

Incidently... I noticed upon re-reading the PM in order to ensure I was claiming them correctly that according to the role PM,

they can be used at the start of each day.

I have PMed the mod to see if this means I would have to wait until the next day would start, because if so, it would mean there would be no concern with town losing them if I die tonight.

The next time I noticed the glaring flaw in her plan was in here next post, post 1323:

Ugh, apparently I'm not allowed to use them on myself, but the mod has confirmed that they're

used at the start of the day

, thus ensuring that using my plan, the town gets the back if I die tonight. So really, there's no reason to not attempt to pull of my plan to clear myself.

The next time, and final time I have noticed the flaw, is in post 1354:

Really now? There are two flaws: One, the one I mentioned, but I still don't feel comfortable flat out saying, and 2) the scum can kill the person you would be giving the pills to. If y'all still can't see it in a little while, then I will go ahead and say it.

I don't give them the pills until *after* the night phase

, so if there's a shortlist generated that's long enough to ensure that at least one of them will survive scum night kills, it's fine.

Bolding in all three quotes done by me to emphasize what I have seen. Dizzy is assuming a lot that she is going to survive through the night, especially considering she could screw up a scum mislynch if she is really town and can toughen someone up enough where it takes an extra vote to lynch. All three of those posts say the pills are given after the night phase, so why claim you got them now and not wait until after you have given the pills? Sounds like scum throwing out an item claim to stop a lynch on them.

...that's it? That's your fatal flaw?

a) If I die tonight, the pills can come back into play. There's no loss for the town in the situation other than a town player, when there'd likely be at least one townie killed by scum tonight anyway so the fact that it's me, when I don't have any power role other than the pills which will come back into play, doesn't adversely affect that town and may actually protect someone who has a powerole from being killed.

b) If I die tonight, there's a reasonable chance that both scum factions will target me, thus reducing the number of scum controlled kills by one.

c) Conversely, there's a chance that both scum factions may take the chance that the other will kill me, meaning I survive.

d) There's a medkit in play and a defibrilator, plus there are pro-town power-roles. If townies have those items or powers, then if the townies are smart, I'll be protected from NKs.

Really, the absolute worst case scenario is that the defibrilator grants the powers of a CPR Doctor (a Doc that kills the patient if they're not targeted by a killing action) which targets me and the two scum factions decide not to target me, meaning three townies die tonight, but that would be seriously unlucky (and would be easy to avoid...).

[DizzyIzzyB13]

FWIW I have a split read on Dizzy, either strong town or strong scum. lol I know this is of no help but I figured I'd throw it out there.

jmj, I still fail to see how your suggestion could break Dizzy's plan.

Amished, yes, there was a defibrillator dropped by the mod at some point. I don't recall who grabbed for it.

Dramonic, Starbuck and jmj.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

@dizzy just because your ability is used during the day does not mean that it wont be affected by a roleblocker. Please confirm with the mod before making this statement.

Clarification requested, although I do believe it is entirely logical that being roleblocked at night would not affewct the use of a daytime ability, since this is how normal mafia would work.

Please don't hammer SPS until I have an answer, guys.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

@dizzy just because your ability is used during the day does not mean that it wont be affected by a roleblocker. Please confirm with the mod before making this statement.

Clarification requested, although I do believe it is entirely logical that being roleblocked at night would not affewct the use of a daytime ability, since this is how normal mafia would work.

Please don't hammer SPS until I have an answer, guys.

The mod has confirmed that it is a day action for the purpose of roleblocking, so the only chance of my being roleblocked would be if scum has a day ability to roleblock.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Which means lynch away, btw.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

The giving pills is a night action, and the taking is a day isn't it? That's how I understood Dizzy.

No. The giving of the pills is a day action.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Gah, sniped.

Back on this, are we? Sigh.

The first quote is from a large post, which I edited and reworded several times while I was writing it. Inevitably, sometimes a mistake will be made and a word change will not make sense. I thought I had made it clear that it was a fairly light-hearted addendum to the main meat of my post. The intended meaning was something like this:

We should lynch bv because I think he's scum, and we could get the guns back before he destroys them.

(Even if BV is Town, we should kill him to spare us the damage he would do to Town! Lol amirite?)

There's nothing mutually exclusive about what I wrote - just a confused line of thought caused by re-editing a post several times while writing it.



Oh and my previous post made me realise there's little to no flavour reason for the Pills to be a delayed action. Why can't you use them straight away to make someone harder to lynch Izzy?

Because it says in the PM I was sent I can only use them at the start of the day from here on out. Why the moid has decided this, I have no idea. I would point out that the message for the dual pistols that was posted when Furry died also stated that the ability didn't activate until the start of the next day - given that it appears to be a condition of both of the item descriptions I've seen, I would suggest that it is just a standard mechanic that all powers granted by items start at the beginning of the next day, at least if they have a day effect.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

If he was scum, he'd not be able to use it on account of it being destroyed when he acquired it.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I think he meant sequentially. However... according to SPS, using the Molotov clears all votes from a player. In order to test that, you wouldn't need to go to a lynch total, just put a single vote on that person and see if it goes away without that person unvoting. I would be more than happy to put a vote on myself and wait for him to remove it in order to confirm him.

Also: For tomorrow, I want voting on whoever I need to target to be absolutely controlled, so we draw up a list of who gets to be part of the wagon, in order that it becomes harder for scum to "accidently" kill someone, and if they do that, we'll at least get a scum out of it.

The best thing about this situation is that there's a good chance at least one of us will be confirmed to be whatever we are tomorrow. Town has it good.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

im still skeptical as to how lobbing a bomb at someone is sposed to make them impossible to lynch, just saying.

I still see no reason why scum would need to lie about the effect an item has considering they get told what it does.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

There are three-ish hours to go by my reckoning. SPS is at L-2. Unless the Amished wagon (or another one, I guess...) moves close enough, I'll be voting for SPS at somepoint, so we get a lynch. I don't want to lynch him if he can clear himself tomorrow, and to be honest, I'd quite like him to stick around since he provides some level of distraction for night kills tonight but equally, we can't afford another no lynch. So... I'll vote for him if I have to. I'd rather we lynch someone else, though.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Guys. I have 24 hgours from the start of the day to nom someone to give the pills to. Agree a target for me, or I'll choose Starbuck. Also,

Grab: Molotov

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Also... Mod, could you please fix the coding on the death list, so people don't get confused, please. :p

Fixed, my apologies.
- The Management

[DizzyIzzyB13]

It wasn't a threat, I was just stating for the record who I'd use them on if the town doesn't choose someone for me.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Because I don't think you're scum, and I'd rather grant an ability that makes it harder to kill someone to a player I think is town than give it to someone I think is scum.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldnt it be more intelligent to use it on, say, jmj the confirmed town?

jmj isn't a confirmed townie unless Starbuck is, in which case it wouldn't matter which one I went for, would it?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Unless, that is, I'm missing something and you're not calling him confirmed because of Starbuck's investigation, in which case I'd request you point me in the direction of whatever it is that confirmed him so I can see for myself, and I'll adjust accordingly.

Also: Either ReaperCharlie or myself will get the Molotov. Since it provides the opportunity to confirm whoever has it... shoudl whiever of us gets it claim as and when it is awarded?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Well, considering a good part of the reason I ever suspected you was because of the flavor debacle, I stopped being 100% sure you were scum right around when thatguy flipped town. About all my expressed opinion of you since that point has been to say that you're not confirmed town a few times when people implied you were.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

ReaperCharlie... two people are eligible for the Molotov. The first two people who grabbed for it were you and me. If the fact that I have the pills means I can't pick it up... then it's you or Starbuck.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Maybe you guys could actually try and come up with a goddamn name, then?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

This is why I'd like the town to make a goddamn decision, ASAP. I am in full agreement that the town should choose.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Since nobody else suggested anyone, and there are roughly 20 minutes to go until the deadline to use them, I've given them to dramonic.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Also, for curiosity's sake. Do you even consider AlmightyBob to be town?

Not particularly, but I said I'd go with the wishes of the rest of the town and he was the only one to express an opinion despite the rest of you who posted not taking advantage of the opportunity to express an opinion.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

vote: dramonic

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Good.

unvote

Mod: I would liike a rule clarification - if a player has one item, can they claim another?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Ugh, apparently I'm not allowed to use them on myself, but the mod has confirmed that they're used at the start of the day, thus ensuring that using my plan, the town gets the back if I die tonight. So really, there's no reason to not attempt to pull of my plan to clear myself.

Also: the mod has made it clear that they'll work on non-town players, so I will definitely be cleared by the pills working, but the person they are used on won't be.

Some people seem to have missed this post I made yesterday. Dramonic is not confirmed either way by the fact that pills worked on him. The mod was vey, very explicit about this.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Good.

unvote

Mod: I would liike a rule clarification - if a player has one item, can they claim another?

Yes.

Since almightybob was confused... I meant to ask if a player has an item, are they allowed to acquire another. For example, I have the pills. I attempted to grab the Molotov. Would I be eligible to recieve the Molotov cocktail?

I ask this because if I am eligible, than myself and ReaperCharlie were the two people who could have recieved the molotov cocktail. I am confirmed town. I do not have the molotov cocktail. ReaperCharlie has posted this:

Ok well, I didn't get the molotov, so... I don't know who did. I was sure that by the time I got back this weekend, that one of us would have gotten it, so... who has it?

Ergo, if I were to be able to grab the molotov... ReaperCharlie is lying and thus ReaperCharlie is scum.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Unvote: Almightybob.

I missed the part where someone else was using the pills on Dramonic. In that case, Dram is not confirmed town.

Dizzy, why are you confirmed town? If you are confirmed town, then I agree with you on your logic regarding Reaperscum. In which case, why aren't you voting Reaper?

Well, since the question I asked wasn't entirely clear, as per Bob's misunderstanding, I'd like to hear from the mod that they understood what I asked to mean what I intended it to mean.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Plus... until he responded, it wass perfectly possible that either he hadn't yet recieved the molotov and the mod gave it to him after that post, or was attempting to not claim ownership of it until he could use it to clear himself tomorrow. As it is, that response makes me think he's more likely to be scum. Still...

Mod: For absolute clarity, is it possible for a player to acquire more than one item?

Yes.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Plus... until he responded, it wass perfectly possible that either he hadn't yet recieved the molotov and the mod gave it to him after that post, or was attempting to not claim ownership of it until he could use it to clear himself tomorrow. As it is, that response makes me think he's more likely to be scum. Still...

Mod: For absolute clarity, is it possible for a player to acquire more than one item?

Yes.

Okay. In which case,

vote: ReaperCharlie

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Okay, there are 8 players still in the game. We know there are two scum teams from the naming of that team as Ambushed, and I assume there are equal numbers in each team.

We know that Team Ambushed has at least 3 members.
If Scum Team B had 4 members, this game would already be over - 4 Scum B, 1 remaining Ambushed scum, 3 Townies.

Therefore the scum team size is 3, the Ambush team have been eliminated, and we currently have 3 Scum B vs. 5 Townies.
Which means today is mylo, and therefore one of the rare occasions where a no-lynch is tactically justifiable. I will outline the maths if people want.

Equal size is not a given, thus this analysis is ultimately useless.

So now, the question is answered for the rest of you that one-shot items are in the game, especially the skeptics who questioned me about my one-shot flashlight.

Granted, but it doesn't eliminate the possibility that you are scum, since scum would have been alerted that the flashlight was a one shot, as per the example provided by the Molotov PM sent to the scum, which mentioned that it was a three-shot ability. I don't believe it's necessarily likely, since you couldn't have 100% known that jmj was town with two factions, and the possibility that he was on the other scum team would make such a bluff more daring than in a single faction game. Still... it's a possibility that the town can't rule out.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

This is extremely frustrating. The game is moving way too fast. Bv310 is still my top suspect; I originally had him down as lol-town but by the end of day one he was blatantly doing nothing but grab items and active-lurk.

FOS: bv310.

SaintKerrigan's argument is stupid. Scum will absolutely kill tonight. But it doesn't look scum-motivated. And as far as I'm concerned, lynching and no-lynching on MYLO are equal options in general.

How on earth is this game moving way too fast when we've had two days in which we've managed to no lynch because we hit a deadline without reaching a majority on a player?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Referring to the last day.

We caught scum yesterday.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

He also posts on a very lurkerish timetable and has an annoying habit of not mentioning names when talking about people with others.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Referring to the last day.

We caught scum yesterday.

What does that have to do with this game moving too fast, Dizzy?

Because that lynch went at a very good speed for the town. The game is not moving too fast, you are playing too slowly.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I would assume a fakeclaim looks exactly like a town PM, otherwise what would be the point of allowing people to quote role PMs? In any case, it's already been established that we can't trust differences between role PMs as a scum hunting tool, given the fact that two proven townies have been shown to have differring role PMs.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

So, a question: How many people think bv is town, and how many have held off voting for him because of his item claim? I know I'm probably in the former. It's certainly the only reason I stopped trying to lynch him after he claimed. If we're in a situation where we need to lynch scum for town to not lose, I think bv needs to be put under active consideration, especially considering the odd way he's presented his item use.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I don't think he's cleared in any way until he flips town or managed to demonstrate his claimed ability. I don't think in a game such as the one we're playing, gambling on the existence of a role-blocker is a huge risk, especially when he claimed it at a time, especially if he's some kind of scum and thus has a greater understanding of the set-up than the rest of the town.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I don't think he's cleared in any way until he flips town or managed to demonstrate his claimed ability. I don't think in a game such as the one we're playing, gambling on the existence of a role-blocker is a huge risk, especially when he claimed it at a time when knowledge of power roles was made public (after night one) and/or if he's some kind of scum and thus has a greater understanding of the set-up than the rest of the town.

EBWOP since I botched changing some stuff in teh previous posty.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Have you caught up yet, SaintKerrigan? If not, why not and if so... provide opinions of your opwn, please?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

120 hrs? People can go 5 days without being prodded?

No offense, I love you both, but I vote that worst rule ever.

I concur with this opinion, even if I've exploited this rule during this game. :p

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I still want SaintKerrigan to, y'know, catch up. It seems the current lull in activity is a good point for this to happen.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

There's no excuse to have not caught up by now. We've had night phases, and the game is moving at a snails pace. If you don't have any intention of doing so, which is the only reason why you shouldn't have had time to catch up by now, replace out.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Mod: I'm sorry, but I recommend locating a replacement for me as soon as possible.

I'll continue to play until a replacement is found, but since the players of this game aren't able to understand that my life does not revolve around this game 24/7, it would be better to put a player in this slot that will meet their expectations of catching up as soon as possible.

It is not unreasonable that you catch up over the space of a month. We've been more than patient with you up tot this point. Please don't throw aspersions at the other players for your own failings.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

You say you want me to tell you who I think I scum. I can do this faster by having people ask me questions in addition to reading the thread instead of just reading at the thread. Not only is it faster, it's more efficient, since people might point me towards something I'd otherwise have missed.

Despite the vast advantages offered by the reading/questions strategy, you put your foot down, flat-out

refuse

to ask me any questions (thereby impairing the efficiency of me catching up), and try to set a deadline for me to get caught up by, under pain of lynch should I fail. How is this behavior conducive to getting me caught up and contributing like your normal everyday citizen?

It isn't.

Hence, why I think you're not really interested in me getting caught up, only in the lynch opportunity I present.

How can you answer questions if you haven't already caught up? When you're working from incomplete information, any answers you provide are pretty much worthless because you're probably missing vitaql information that would change your answer, which you've demonstrated several times so far in this game. Just read the thread or replace out, you've had plenty of time to do it and you're currently worthless to the town because you're a) not doing anything useful to find scum and b) making it hard to read you on account of the shoddy basis upon which you're working from.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I'd rather not replace SK either, but there's only so far you can let someone who's refusing to catch up and participate properly go before it starts to adversely affect the rest of the game, partiularly if town could lose today.

Look how the game has stalled out thanks to people trying to give SK a chance to catch up. This is not good for town.