Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[boberz]

I exist, have just got in will begin read tomorrow morning, feeling very tired. Is there anything people would like to point out to me or have me comment on specifically for when I finish the read.

I normally read quickly I wont let it become lurking.

[boberz]

better

unvote

As I am the only one on the wagon it dont matter, but it isnt a good precedemt to set.

[boberz]

Good day all. I made some notes as I read throught the thread:

Richard inadvertantly kicks the game off, much too late btw. At least it made it easy to read.

Richard just seems a bit touchy with these votes on him. I sensed something similar.

Richard: "Everybody should vote me now."!?!?!

Poro could have left the attack on Richard to farside. But the attack itself is logical.

Great spot by Jahundo #148 on gambit

I dont like BV in #172/#173.

#195 sums it up pretty well.

I will be a lurker hunter and a scum hunter. They are both important and good.

ABR #23, if I had been in the game I would have killed ABR for this. Probably not scummy though.

I doubt seraphim and zito are scum together, the only thing I can point to is #239 but I sensed it from before here.

I disagree with #253 not fence sitting stating the obvious.

I agree Anon didnt look to have read completely, but I dont think this is necessarily a scum tell.

#280 the words I have looked for to describe my early day 1 play in all my game sso far. I agree.

ABR scumhunt!!!!#283

Why did Faraday put "(and many others)" in #287 feels like he is trying to seem towny?

#296 it wasnt a catch we had all seen it and it had been mentioned. It was a good summation

I like Anons posts but there are a lot of them

#309 he is still maintaining it was a gambit. It was not. If it was he is a really bad bad player.

very conveniant for bv to arrive just after RIchard.

I remember PYP4 as well. Dont care about this debate though.

#333 NO! BOTH.that is not hypocracy. People want oyu to scumhunt, and continue scumhunting, and defend your schumhunting, and scumhunt some more!!!

ABR #336 I dont like this play. If you dont like it then change it.

#358 "Is that what you wanted to hear!" Richard is scummy I tell you. But so is BV they are scummy together.

Dont like #410

I like #420 makes sense to me.

Zito lurks a bit in the second half of the thread.

---

vote: Richard

I cannot read all his inadequacies coming from a town perspective.

Wasnt overly happy with bv either for some reason Papa Zito started annoying me in the end part of the thread.

[boberz]

Sorry about the post numbers. I was going to do loads of quotes but thought it might be a wall. In hindsight I should have used links. Will do better in future.

@ABR I was commenting whatever occured to me as I read through, if your earlier posts trumped your latest ones in standing out to me perhaps that would be your bad.

@Faraday it was more your "as do many others" comment that just seemed like you were trying to make your comment look towny. I agree that lurking is a scumtell and hunting them is good.

---

I dont have the time or inclination to present a case properly tonight as I am tired again. Tomorrow I will do this on Richard who is my top suspect.

I will also explain why I think it may be BV and/or Faraday who is a partner. Although I think faraday may be more gut I will find out when I am compiling the case.

[boberz]

I have not picked up anything new from this game. Richard seems bad to me. I agree VI but they can be scum and this time I think he is.

BV I am less sure on but I understand where the argument is coming from and agree he looks a bit scummy. I do not like the fact after a prodding he came back and didnt scumhunt at all.

I agree that moaning at two wagons without providing a real alternative is a bit dubious but that has already been picked up on.

MME make sure there is real content later please.

[boberz]

I swear I mentioned this at the time, I said I didnt like it. henever explained then.

[boberz]

I sense the Nick wagon feels bad. It just seems players are moving to it when thye run out of ideas. Maybe I am wrong and I am not saying those players a scummy because of it. I just dont see why it is emerging yet.

[boberz]

With the lurking it seems clearer to me that it is Richard

and

BV. If only one was scum then the other would be desperate to post so the other was chosen.

[boberz]

Mod: Could you please post the deadline when posting the vote count?

Bobz if you believe that why are you voting richards? Who else do you find scummy and why?

If I believe them both to be scum then it is obvious I would be voting one of them!!!

Who else is scummy??
ABR is I suppose because I cannot work out why he played so annoyingly (deliberately so) in the early game. He has not done anything to reddem himself as such.

MME I havent liked because he ha lurked majorly and not answered even simple questions or addressed anything. Even the times he was time pressured he could have floated a quick thought or two like most of us do. Even if he then corrected it later I would prefer it.

[boberz]

He was asked to contribute more, I consider this pressured (maybe that is an exageration) into posting more. He did not.

Examples (how do you link the actual words?)

Poro in Post 520 viewtopic.php?p=2197991#2197991

and farside post 508 viewtopic.php?p=2196867#2196867

There are others but I cannot be bothered to go back and find the specific examples.

[boberz]

Haha I just noticed I quoted you, I just found 2 random examples. That wasnt meant ot be sarcy.

[boberz]

ABR is I suppose because I cannot work out why he played so annoyingly (deliberately so) in the early game. He has not done anything to reddem himself as such.

Did I understand correctly that ABR is scummy for being deliberately annoying and not redeeming himself from his annoyingness?

It was a bit forced I grant you. You read me correctly, but I could call it active lurking and suddenly my point becomes valid (to many people, including me). It constituted the same thing.

Re: MME; did I understand correctly that he is scummy to you especially for not contributing when asked to contribute?

Yes you read me properly on this one. There are other small points but I dont want to force a case out properly. This one was active lurking properly and was trying to look like he wasnt which is even worse imo.

If yes, it seems to me we either really disagree on what is typically scummy or do not share alignment.
What's up with your suspicion of Faraday and Zito nowadays?

Zito was primarily gut if I am honest and that has died down and not really exposed itself in words imo.

Faraday is still hanging around on my scum radar to some extent. It is more about a couple of points I saw with Richard who I think is scum, I dont want to wander down this route until we confirm Richards scum (I am sure he will be). It is also a bit of gut.

[/b]

[boberz]

That didnt read as a claim to me Zito I dont think it was a claim. It definately wasnt a claim!!

[boberz]

In fact I dont think BV is scum after that. He definately tried to not claim anything he wrote role

s

. He was considering it. I think he has never seen any roles and thought every protown role was a VT. How could he do that as scum???

Take a step back everyone.

[boberz]

Ok I will try again.

BV made an effort to deliberately nor roleclaim. By typing roles plural, he was trying to show how he could still be any. Perhaps learning from previous mistakes.

But why would he be so careful with roles but be happy to write VT. It must be because he believes all the protown roles can be described as VT, or all protown roles fall under the banner VT. We know that they dont, but because he hasnt played as them before he doesnt. He must be a VT again otherwise he would know that the role titles/banners are different.

I do not see how he could do this as scum.

[boberz]

I am not guys. And if I was why on earth would I be pushing this quite so hard. I am not that much of a noob.

[boberz]

No I am not trying to help cover him up. If I were I would not create this convaluted idea and hope he picks it up.

Can one of you explain what is wrong with my argument please??? because I cannot see how he can be scum here. He said 'VT roles' how can that be possible and how could you believe that to be possible unless you had not been given a role that was only them???

I simply dont get why defending someone who is about to be lynched who you believe is safe is a bad thing. Yes if he turned out to be scum I can see why you would turn on me. But you cannot just assume we are partners.

You are making a real mistake here.

[boberz]

I am getting distracted by the useless junk on this page.

How do I know they are wrong about this??? Because I am not scum and I was responding to the premise that I was a partner with BV!!!

Why do I care about not appearing to have a link with BV??? Because I dont have a link with BV and it appears that my comment only made everyone more suspicious of bv and suspicious of me with BV. It is not in towns interest to let attacks on them go undefended.

Now if I have made a mistake with my read on bv and m understanding of his post someone please explain it. This is in all of your interest because the other people who are claiming this could just be coming along for the ride without actually seeing what you are seeing.

[boberz]

In terms of why right now, because I am distracted by this discussion as to my alledged partnership with BV. IN medium to long term I believe I have scumhunted. But you are right I need to address this, expect a proper post tonight.

[boberz]

Here is exactly why I am voting RIchard.
Some posts are null others are scummy. None are protown.


Post 0:

no objection

Post 1:

No objection

Post 2:

Slight AtE.
No content, beginning a lurk.

Post 3:

No content, was online for half an hour clearly didnt use the time wisely.

Post 4:

On again 3 hours later still no content.

Post 5:

Scumhunts but against someone who is voting for him. OMGUS

Post 6:

No town should say this!

Post 7:

AtE
And still no town should say this.
Beginning his second lurk session.

Post 8:

Same reasoning as post 7, but he has had five hours to collect himself from the last post.

Post 9:

Getting flustered
Clearly lying. He did throw a tantrum, what else can you call it.

Post 10:

Nothing here

Post 11:

Another lie, he is not

just

being a jerk, he is being a scummy jerk.
On a serios note more lurking.

Post 12:

Nothing here, but he shows no remorse to being anti-town

Post 13:

AtE
More lying

Post 14:

Self-meta (i dont mind meta, it is self meta I dont like)
Still lurking, another half hour he was obviously online and could have made some kind of case however weak.

Post 15:

Lurk

Post 16:

He decided to pretend he got some reads off his gambit, he did not he spent an hour or two reading and making up complete twaddle.
Reaction with farside was fence sitting here.

Post 17:

AtE
Lurking

Post 18:

More lurking
More self meta, which this time look sreally scummy. It is as if he is aiming to play to his meta, rather than his meta naturally following.
I dont even understand some of this stuff. It wasnt a gambit, we know that for a fact.

Post 19:

Is that what you wanted to hear?

Really scummy, he is defensive, still lurking and trying to appease.

Post 20:

Still not scumhunting, I think voting someone because of the way they voted for you counts as OMGUS in this case.

Post 21:

No reason for bv looking for a way out. Not actually necessarily scummy.
But the lack of proper scumhunting is.

Post 22:

I buy this post as genuine. But there is still no scumhunting.

Post 23:

He has been lurking.
He comes back to lurk some more.

Post 24:

Two days later still nothing. Lurking scum.

Post 25:

He promised content but failed, again.

---

I have to get up early tomorrow so do not have time to do one of these on MME, I still await his response to me earlier.

[boberz]

Every post except 627 and 632 annoyed me. Particularly as there was pletny going on.

[boberz]

I analyse every single post and you accuse me of IIoA???

[boberz]

You may hate them it doesnt make them scummy. The conclusion is, Richard is scum, this is why so many of us have been on him for so long. The analysis was reading into the posts what they actually meant.

This is ludicorus.

Oja I believe lurking is scummy not just anit town. Reason being, both town and scum have external reasons to lynch, but only scum have tactical reasons to lynch. I believe being called out on lurking acknowledging it and then lurking more is more scummy because it shows me that they are (less likely to be doing it for external reasons) therfore more likely to be doing it tactically, so it becomes more scummy.

[boberz]

OJ: I don't really think MME's been pressure to really post content. 2 people commenting about the behavoir isn't pressure in my view.

Oh bob. Hey bob why are you freeking out being tied to bv if you think he is trying to soft claim town there?
Or did I read your view on what bv was "supposedly" saying false?

You have misunderstood me!

I think he tried very hard not to claim. I think he thought that he was just saying he was protown.

However I think he thought that VT was some kind of banner/description that could apply to any protown situation. Thus I thought he would have to be a VT to think that obviously.

However after cooling down a bit. I have thought about it and it may be the case that he believed it to be true but was doing so from a mafia perspective. Becaus eof course he would not see the protown role descriptions as scum. So I was actually wrong. Now because I expect some fools wont read this psot properly I am going to shout at them.

NB FOR ANYONE NOT READING THIS POST PROPERLY I AM ADMITTING TO BEING WRONG

[boberz]

OJ: I don't really think MME's been pressure to really post content. 2 people commenting about the behavoir isn't pressure in my view.

True, actually. But that was how bob saw it and I was trying to read bob.

I saw it like that, but since admitted that pressured was a bit of an exageration.

[boberz]

That seems to back up my inclination that he considers 'mild PR roles' equivalent enough to be considered VT.

I knew that was in the random stage, but I hate the random stage (althought this one was good fun) and will hit lurking as hard here as I will elsewhere. People should be trying to avoid randomness not just mill around in the background of it. Note how the first two or three I did not consider scummy, I gave him some slack but reigned it in when he continued.

[boberz]

As I pointed out earlier VIs can be scum and as I said earlier I think this one is.

Just because I did not write the context does not mean I ignored it, normally I would have considered the second and third posts lurking but because of the context I delayed it. I did check the posts in context I promise (look at how long it took me for evidence).

My PBPA or my iso??? My PBPA is inflated if by which you mean reptitive. It is deliberately repetitive to show how little improvement there has been. But you dont like them fair enough. Still doesnt make them scummy.

[boberz]

Even if he is answering questions the fact he is posting without content is scummy. That is my point. I did not ignore the context I just didnt reference it.

[boberz]

I am talking about post 593:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 38#2202338

and

594.

Zito seemed to think it was a claim and this is what I have been talking about. Later I thought i had conclusive proof that he was town, I was convinced. I have now withdrawn that. I am a bit confused as to where our wires got crossed but they are clearly tangled now.

[boberz]

You may hate them it doesnt make them scummy. The conclusion is, Richard is scum, this is why so many of us have been on him for so long. The analysis was reading into the posts what they actually meant.

This is ludicorus.

Oja I believe lurking is scummy not just anti town. Reason being, both town and scum have external reasons to lurk, but only scum have tactical reasons to lurk. I believe being called out on lurking acknowledging it and then lurking more is more scummy because it shows me that they are (less likely to be doing it for external reasons) therfore more likely to be doing it tactically, so it becomes more scummy.

Once they're called on it, it's clear that their lurking is doing them no good, and is making them look scummier. What 'tactical' good would it do them in this instance to continue lurking?

And what gives you the impression that external obligations go away once pressure is applied in a mafia thread?

And, Boberz, post #614, does the "I'm acting far too scummy to be scum!" defence work against you? If not, why are you trying to employ it here?

They are less likely to be doing it for external reasons because I know they are redaing the thread thoroghly etc. It does not take away the external reasons but diminishes their probability.

I dont know what tactical good it might do in this situation, or what they percieve the tactical good is in this situation, because I am not in their situation. But it is clear that there are tactical reasons to lurk and lots of them for scum, the percieved value may supercede that of whatever they are trying to hide or avoid. And with people questioning the tell it only amplifies this.

It was not 'too scummy to be scum' it was more 'read the thing in context and explain why it is scummy, because it is not'.

[boberz]

dybeck, do you think boberz' Post 640 was a “IIoA” Post?

Maybe! What's a "IIoA" post?

lol, your just hoping I am scummy.

IIoA means information instead of analysis. It wasnt this and we have already been through this today.

[boberz]

Ok so Seraphim has announced that the post he said was information instead of analysis had little info and had some analysis. Yet he still thinks it fits into the category. I am expected to answer this?



I do not really get the case against me Dybeck, considering you love conciseness and clearness so much could you sum it up for me?

I accept the post was not clear nad I will try better in future.

If the point against me is lack of scumhunting I apologise, I will try better. But I think there are others that are worse.


---

Dybeck you did point me to #676 which I ignored because I thought it was so useless:

I believe being called out for lurking acknowledging it then going back to lurk again is scummy. Because it shows me that they are reading and keeping up with the thread and not contributing, I think this is scummy. I cannot quite believe you are calling me scummy for saying this. I cannot tell you the potentially percieved reasons because it would stroll us into some intense WIFOM but the point is they inevitable exist, and quite regularly will outweigh the negative connotations of lurking.

I did not quote a stock tell and I do not believe in stock tells. You just didnt read/understand my post properly.

[boberz]

Freaking out, overreacting, losing control etc are not scum tells. Why on earth are they? either explain the rationale, show the evidence or just admitt you are wrong.

I am not worried about the flip. I am worried that you are about to lynch atleast one towny. If I make a comment that is meant to make someone else safe, and it ends up making him les safe and me suspicious of course I am going to react in the way I did.

Now please stop pretending your argument makes itself because it is so obvious and actually make your argument.

[boberz]

Freaking out, overreacting, losing control etc are not scum tells.

Yet they are the main reason the Richard wagon got its head of steam in the first place, if you cast your mind back. Do you disagree with the reasons why he was voted by several people early on?

...since he happens to be on the wagon...

Dont you start buddying these guys Pom.

But I have given my reasons for Richard in the very post that stimulated this argument (and elsewhere). It did not include overreaction.

---

[quote="seraphim" I still find the post scummy because it is not useful like PBPAs tend to be.[/quote]

It had analysis therfore it was helpful to some extent. However if it was not helpful due to structure I can only apologise. But I only have to point at one of the thousands of games to show that PBPA are not scummy. You may consider it antitown but in this case they are different things. I like PBPAs and will still make them, I will try to make them easier to read though.

---

I disagree with this

That is a shame. What do you want me to do about it? I have already answered for it and you have provided no reasoning for me to object to. Do I sense that you are just looking for someone to go on rather than someone who is actually scummy.

---

I ask that people are not put off by this discussion exclusively it seems to have dominated too much for little reason. ie only two or three people seem to care so far.

[boberz]

That is not what I said Seraphim. We have alternative views on theory here but we are not going to discuss the theory and waste everyone's time. But I asked why it this situation in this game it was scummy? A much more pertinent question.

ALso. In your opinion does anti-town always mean scummy?

---

I dont agree with the overreation being a scum tell. But I sensed they were using overreaction because they were struggling to articulate (in some cases I cant remember who specifically) other reasons I think they had. I do think he was being a tad inward looking which is more of a scumtell imo.

[boberz]

But I only have to point at one of the thousands of games to show that PBPA are not scummy.

This is your exact wording. Yet you are not able to give me an example. Do you know why?

PBPAs are an excellent way for scum to "contribute". It's a lot of text but it's still style over substance. Not all of a player's posts are scummy or contribute to him being scum...it's a culmination, it's a big picture thing, a number of posts that form a picture. A PBPA does not give this.

Think of a game of Connect-the-Dots. If you connect the right dots in the right order, they make a picture, pointing out scum. A PBPA is like coloring in the space between the dots. Reading in iso is great and can help form a case on scum. But the rest of the town can't see what you are seeing unless you point it out and formulate it in a way that everyone else can understand!

That's why I called it IIoA...it's information about his posts...but it's not

helpful

, you don't prove a point because you've colored in all the dots and all that's left is a mess. You don't formulate

why

you think he's scum.

That's why I don't like PBPAs.

As for anti-town vs. scummy...anti-town is actions against the town. Anti-town by definition is going to not always be scum...town perform "scumtells" too. Self-voting is anti-town but town still do it. I think it's important to look at the context of the anti-town action to determine whether or not it's scummy.

You have now moved the goal posts. You asked me to point out where it has been helpful to town, which is so subjective it is impossible to answer. As for when it is not scummy that is easy. It is not scummy in the thousands of cases where it was noy used by scum. I am not prepared to go into the theory of it, that would also be anti-town. You are fuelling this.

you have now told me that it was IIoA again after withdrawing this only a few posts ago. You are being silly and it is impossible to answer.

---

Dybeck, needless to say I am not the lynch today. But heyho. Now to turn to Richard's post.

[boberz]

A few comments before I absolutely slam Richard for that post.

Firstly I would accept being called a noob by almost anyone in this game but you.

I understand the definitions perfectly well, why assume I dont rather than actually defend the case.

Where is the scumhunting in that post?

Lurking is a scum tell. I have explianed why I believe it is (scum having both tactical and personal reasons to lurk and town only having personal reasons) now it is your turn to tell me it isnt. I accept this is a bit of theory that is disputed but to discount it you do actually have to refute it.

[boberz]

OK point, but you do realise that it's through and through WIFOM right?

Actually, by now even I have accepted I dont have a point. So tell me what point I had. The answer is you dont know, you were just looking for something to say. There was no WIFOM in the point it was just plain wrong! So you have misunderstoon one post. Trust me it gets worse for you from here.

---

No. I was questioning the validity of farside's vote on me. That's not OMGUS. Get your definitions straight.

You have lied (and it is testable):

@farside: Forsrs? You're using elusive panic as your excuse to vote me? That's really pretty scum-like you know. Even if I was panicked, it wouldn't make me scum. Nobody wants to be lynched. The fact that I only had one vote on me is irrelevant. I addressed it in a manner I felt appropriate. Lastly, you have a rather interesting and extreme definition of 'obsessed'...

But if as you claim you were not calling someone out for being scum then it was another lurking post. So try again scum.

If you really wanted to attack that post, you would've said "No town would EVER say this!". This part comes across as really scum-like to me.

Why is this scumlike???? The truth is again that you dont know and were making this up on the spot.

I dont think it matters if I say should or would. You are scum and both ways call you it.

" wrote:
Post 7:AtE
And still no town should say this.
Beginning his second lurk session.


None of them being outright scumtells.

Town use AtE
As if scum would say it
Lurking = nulltell

Of course some scum lurk and use AtE. That is a cop out. More scum use these things. You especially.

Unless you have telepathical powers, you're not qualified to assess whether I was lying or not. And if you are, you need to fine tune your reading abilities, because I was clearly not lying.

I do not need telepathic powers to know you were lying. It was not a gambit, but if it was then you were lying when you said it was you making a neejerk reaction to being voted early. Everyone knows it wasnt a gambit, pretending it was has only helped make you more scummy. Not that you need help making yourself look scummy.

What's the difference when the meta itself was correct anyway?

Self meta is crap and scummy. Because if you know your meta you can change it and therefore pointing it out is just leading town towards wifom and mistrust of you. You are not qualififed to say if it is correct, but if it is it tells us nothing. So try again scummy boy.

Frustration =/= AtE. Get your definitions straight (again).

No it was an AtE and one of the most obvious ones ever. for those who forgot this sentence let me quote it for you:

I keep quiet, you put votes on me for lurking.

I post content, you put votes on me because my reads are "terribad" and my logic is flawed.

MAKE UP YOUR GODDAMNED MINDS, PEOPLE!

Let me explain something to you here. There is no such thing as factual information in this game (bar roleflips). You simply can't correctly state that it's a fact I didn't gambit, because I did. You are not qualified to make the assessment of whether I was lying or not.

Dont patronise me. Your crap at mafia, and your scum now. I know you didnt gambit, the delayed time it took you to tell us, the amount of time it took you to analyse responses, the lack of content in the responses, the lack of a testable hypothesis, and the fact you told us that it was an over defensive overreation on your part on more than one occasion tells me you were lying. If you werent you were lying when you did the other things listed above.

So you'd rather I agreed with the case against me, self-voted and deprived town of one member?

Inward looking is scummy unless accompanied by outward looking. I have explained why before you either didnt read or ignored a point you cannot answer. Which is it?

OMGUS: Oh My God, You Suck. Voting for someone entirely on the basis that they voted you. A cheap shot at retaliation. My vote was unbiased in that the fact that he happened to be voting ME was irrelevant, I would have done it the same if he had voted any other player that way. Therefore, my vote was not OMGUS, period.

Yeah sure you would.[/sarcasm]
You would not have done that if someone had attacked someone else for invalid reasons. Show me somewhere in this thread where you have done that. The truth is you cant. Because you stilll scum.

The time between posts 23 and 24 was only 1 day and just over two hours. Get your facts straight. For reference:

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:10 pm Post subject: 23

Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:12 pm Post subject: 24

You logged in for a second day in a row to tell us you might post in the future. So you were online within the timescale when you said you would post and I call you out for lurking. I maintain this so answer it this time. Btw you continued to lurk for a long time after this.

I didn't promise content in that post. Learn to read. You may have meant post 26, in which case I'll give you that. I ran out of time yesterday so I'm doing it now, the morning after.

You promised content in #23 and #24 it hadnt appeared by #26 so I point it out. Btw you broke the promise of a 24 hour post you made in #26 so not a good post to draw me to.

He had a right to accuse you of IIoA. All you did was post oneliner comments on all of my posts, you didn't offer your own opinions, and the case in general comes off as contrived and half-hearted. You can't call that "analysis", really.

He had no right and since admitted he was wrong. Although apparently has done a 180 on this.

There was analysis in nearly every point in that. Nobody has actually refuted any of the analysis in it, so I am working under the assumption everything I said was correct. So try again scumboy.

Come on man, you're just getting worse and worse. Your preliminary inference of everyone who thinks your post is wrong is not reading it properly doesn't sit well with me. You have to be able to admit your mistakes, without sarcasm

There was not sarcasm, I was wrong. Why did I make a thing of it, because I know people arent reading properly and you are one of those people.

I'd rather people moved to scum as I feel they're wasting their time with me

Then do some scumhunting.

Possibly more later today, if anyone wants it.

Bring it. Perhaps make it about someone other than yourself though.

---

I am slightly amused that you state so much as fact but blame me for doing the same thing.

[boberz]

You got the definitions of AtE and OMGUS totally wrong, or at the very least didn't apply them to me very well.

Scum have tactical reason to lurk
Scum have personal reason to lurk
Town have personal reason to lurk
Town have tactical reason to lurk

Would'ya look at that.

Lurking is not exclusively or even predominantly performed by scum, so how can it possibly be a scumtell?

inb4 boberz posts a giant wall of text I have no hope of getting through.

Give me a town tactic to lurk. If you are a town who thinks it is in his interests to lurk then I may be a convert to policy lynching [/joke]

Scum definately have more reasons to tactically lurk whereas social reasons will balance.

You promised us another proper post dont dissapoint me again.

You make a long case in response to my long case. Expect a long one back. You are scum after all.

I dont have AtE at all wrong. You just do it too much.

Go on do some scumhunting, I dare you.

[boberz]

I cannot justify leaving this wagon Anon. I understna dmany have me as scummy, but that does not detract from Richard's scumminess. Every timeI considered changing my vote I would read back and be struck by something else that Richard did that was crap.

I can see a case on bv but dont really want it.

I want to see more from Jack because I dont understand what he has been doing. Pom I could look at I suppose, but Richard is the standout scum.

[boberz]

Freaking out, overreacting, losing control etc are not scum tells. Why on earth are they? either explain the rationale, show the evidence or just admitt you are wrong.
.

Show me where you have done all the above as town before in a game.

Are you actually serious??? You are being really silly.

I certainyl didnt answer for him here I posted after him. And I only wrote what he did in plain english I did not add anything.

It was 7 I posted once in day 1 also. Either way not important, I have not been around that long I consider my activity level fairly high.

How is me defending somebody who you clearly cant understand a scumtell???

I really think you are being silly now poro. you were the one asking for what he meant. You cant understand when he posts, when I do you moan that I shouldnt answer for him. Now to remind myself of initial impressions and match them

There are loads of examples, this was in pyp4 and was actually commented upon at the time.

[boberz]

Wow this Seraphim case is exactly what I was thinking, but I was worried that there was an element of OMGUS in my thinking.

But surely this case on Seraphim is largely reliant on Richard being scum, as richard has more support, has made more mistakes and is a better policy lynch. Surely it is better to go for him first?

[boberz]

Just to note, continually referring to someone as scum in second-person form ("You are scum, after all", "Alot of scum do this, you especially") is a

VERY

scum-like action and town don't really do it at all. It's like boberz is so hellbent on a mislynch on me. I know for a fact that I am town, so logically I have slight suspicion of everyone on my wagon - but my boberz suspicion is legitimate and valid.

I am now officially calling a scum read on boberz.

Unvote Vote boberz

NB TO ANYONE NOT READING THIS PROPERLY I AM ADMITTING TO OMGUSING.

/sarcasm

Why is calling you scum a scummy thing to do?

Why am I scum, you didnt actually explain this?

I am calling OMGUS

[boberz]

BTW I dont like the term VI being thrown around so much because VI can be scum or town, so it is not actually a read. That said, I dont think I can be the worst VI you have seen, because richard is in the game.

[boberz]

Also, it's FAR too late in the game to be policy lynching. That's a start-of-Day-1 thing.

You cannot accuse me of policy lynching (which I am not) at the same time you are accusing me of calling you scum too much. It ocntradicts.

Are you saying we should policy lynch at the start of day 1??????????

[boberz]

Sorry Jahudu I was talking about Nick not Jack (he is in another game I am in got them mixed up briefly). Nick is the one I dont really get and want to see more of.

Seraphim has now confused me more. He now says the crux of his agument against me is me trying to clear someone when I thought I had a point that cleared that person? I am struggling to take this attack seriously I am certainly struggling to find what I am meant to reply to.

More Later.

[boberz]

I guess that is good for me in this game, but somehting I should address for future then farside. I will do my best.

[boberz]

How much of a newbie do you think I am Sera. I accept I am a newbie, but the things you accuse me of are below even the most basic slips.

[boberz]

Why is calling you scum a scummy thing to do?

It's not when it's contained and in thrid person, but when you start doing it every other line directed AT that person, it becomes tunneling, which, if I flip town, you'll get hell for.

Why am I scum, you didnt actually explain this?

Because of the way you are so hellbent on and sure of your case, when it is in fact wrong. The fact you can't even CONSIDER looking at it from my perspective is a large tell too.

I am calling OMGUS

Good for you. I'm losing count of how many things you're getting wrong.

No no, even if you are town I can be right that it is OMGUS.

I am not tunneling I have looked at others, and looked at you from a towny perspective. The point is I can see your posts as more likely to come from scum.

And calling you scum from any person and with any regularity is not a scum tell. It simply isnt.

[boberz]

ABR, are those capitals designed to convince us?

[boberz]

unvote vote bv

I cannot promise when I am on the next few days so I think this is a tad better than pom.

[boberz]

I have realised that there is not support to be harvested for a Richard lynch today so I am moving on to someone else. Much too tired to formulate a post.

[boberz]

unvote

It is clear to me he is a VT, he doesnt realse saying it is a claim.

[boberz]

Hi

As some of you may have seen the election in Britain has been called. I am heavily involved in British politics so will not be as active as I have been in the past.

I will be on and commenting no need to replace, just a warning in advance.

[boberz]

Dybeck, it is really bad form to set up lynches for the next day in that manner.

It is not me, his claim sounded genuine, I have not been the only one to say so. Unless you really promote killing off people who have claimed VT just in case they are not VT dybeck you do not have a leg to stand on.

We may aswell all claim now if you are not going to even consider the cliams might be true.

[boberz]

Ill do Richard or Pom now.

vote Richard

will be on tomorrow morning briefly to switch that vote if we need it.

[boberz]

Dybeck, it is really bad form to set up lynches for the next day in that manner.

Do feel free to explain why.

Because it indicates that your mind is closed.

Because it indicates you will not be considering all info tomorrow.

Because you help scum know who to avoid tonight (not massively relevant in this case I accept)

Because you create even more WIFOM than normal if one of us gets killed in the night.

[boberz]

I didnt object to you voicing suspicions. I objected to you trying to set up some kind of lynch (certainly how I read it) on me the next day. There is a big difference.

I assume you have no objection to the four points I actually made seeing as you quote them but dont refute them.

[boberz]

Is this your way of saying I am right dybeck?

[boberz]

You seem very confident of being around tomorrow with Javert Sera. Are you scum?

I do mind you holding off, so say anything you can before the deadline.

[boberz]

Is this your way of saying I am right dybeck?

Not really. Part of your post is stating the obvious. And part is just plain stupid. As with so many of your posts, you are correctly taking fundamentals of the game, but distorting them. Others are more forgiving than I am, and are clearly willing to believe that you just understand the game in a childlike and facile way, which causes you to draw the flat wrong conclusions. I think you're scum.

However, your stupidity is nothing compared to your scummate Sando. I will grant you that much.

Maybe this is true, I hope not. But if my post was stating the obvious why were yout tying to set up the kill for the next day? There is no point saying I am being much too simplistic if you are the person who is doing very simple bad things.

But glad to hear that you did agree with my post despite still not being able to say it. You are very stubborn, you essentially say 'I think you are wrong, but everything you say is not wrong'.

[boberz]

Agree.

unvote: Anon
vote: DocPotter

Though Anon's participation will be monitored carefully.

---
If I were a vig, I'd shoot Sando.

This post made me think he was a vig. I thought it strange that he would do it. I was by no means certain and he did try to explain it (although I was not convinced).

I think Faraday is suspicious because of his response to this where he used it as an excuse to set up a potential vig claim later.

FOS Faraday

but I think Richard has been easily the most suspicious person for reasons I gave (among others) many times yesterday.

I also think it was more than possible for them both to be scum (he and bv) because there was an attempt at a counter wagon on me which may indicate that atleast one scum was not happy with either wagon.

---

I also want to know why Pom hammered it seemed to happen without me realising.

---

I also want to know what people think of Esp and Sera

[boberz]

I am an idiot who still doesnt understand what is wrong with the claim factually.

I did not like Pom #952, it read to me like 'I have just cooked up this superb fakeclaim let me make it'.

[boberz]

Have a feeling if Pom isnt scum, I am gone tomorrow.....Pom, your ass better be scum.

Why did you have this feeling?

[boberz]

You can go around declaring that your buddies are town when you survive the night and it just too perfect.

But then when I'd flip scum you'd suspect them more. And if I was tracked, I'd be proven scum. There are much more convenient and less obscure fakeclaims for me.

I just dont like this. I think it sounds like Pom is trying to explain the thought process behind cooking up a claim rather than trying to defend his own claim. But im too tired to count votes and see what mine would do.

[boberz]

I am not really sure where this game is going, I feel slightly out of it. My own fault entirely but it means that I am in no position to launch an attack or find something new yet.

I am beginning to like ABR more and understand what he is doing I think.

I liked Jahudo latest post it seemed like a real attempt to help town. But the last sentence feels a bit off. As if fishing to see whether that lynch is possible even though he has moved away from it.

[boberz]

I dont like Pom tryin to attack someone for rolclaiming when basically they didnt. It doesnt make any sense, it proves Pom is reading the thread but demonstrating she is scraping the bottom of the barrel to find anything to do.

[boberz]

The first three people on the wagon are scummy ABR (or atleast have reasonable suspicion aimed at them) do you believe that more than one person is bussing in this situation (where the pom wagon has been decreasing in size)???

Or are all our reads bad?

[boberz]

Pom you said

Maybe. But don't act like you should be off the hook.

in response to a defence of an alledged roleclaim. Dont change hikstory. You were clinging to the coattails of something you would hope would stick.

I dont like dybeck either there, but you were the one who was worst there. So I was not wrong, so you try again.

[boberz]

Pom, we are discussing your #1082; I presumed that #1081 was in reference to #1080 and seeing as it doesnt reference your post I dont see how I was to know any better. I await clarification from Nick by what he was refering to in post #1080.

[boberz]

Now you have cleared it up it is not an issue, and it makes sense. I thought Pom was making some attack on whoever it was for claiming when they quite simply didnt claim.

[boberz]

thought - past tense.

[boberz]

On me reading the thread I am finding it slightly hard to get an foot in so to speak. I amreading every word but am not fully engaged somehow.

I did misread it but I still dont think it was immediately obvious. It would have made sense talking about the post directly above it, and it made no reference to any post so it was an acceptable mistake.

I understand dybeck did it, but I was criticising pom for jumping on the coattails of a crap case. My posts at the time clearly show that is how I understood it.

---

Basically dybeck has been bothering me for a while I am sure there is a reason so I will look when I get a bit more time.

[boberz]

I am not doing it I just genuinely dont have time to collate a case right now.

But I suppose Dybeck trying to misrep my post there (it was not OMGUS and it was not choosing a target before making a case). In facti if I look back and there is nothing then there still wont be a case. But heyho.

[boberz]

I can see Pom with Esp. That whole thing about forgetting why she is scummy just seems like an excuse to bus and I generally dont like the way this game has stalled.

vote pom

[boberz]

I can actually see what ABR was doing yesterday. But after pom was town I think he should buck up today. He is going to have to prove he is town to us today he should no longer be allowed to cruise through.

[boberz]

First ever prod I do apologise everyone.

Still need to go back and work out what I had on Dybeck. He has improved today however and is actually pressing for weak points in Sando for example.

[boberz]

First ever prod I do apologise everyone.

Still need to go back and work out what I had on Dybeck. He has improved today however and is actually pressing for weak points in Sando for example.

As far as I recall, dybeck was pressing on Sando yesterday, too. What is different about him today?

He looked more reactionary yesterday I think whereas today he looks like he might actually get Sando on a point. But now I look back he doesnt seem to have actually made points today just creating a whole lot of noise. What are

your

points dybeck.

[boberz]

unvote:
vote: Espeonage

pretty sure he is scum. I'm not as sure about Sando I could see a few things on him that I don't like but I keep asking myself would scum stick their neck out like that day 1.
I do know I didn't like how he said we should be lynching Richard but then votes for bv. It just rubbed me really wrong.

Esp is just voting along. I didn't like his vote on bv at the time and he's just following a long. I call this the flying under the radar scum tactic.

Comment on this then Esp.

[boberz]

3.)

Ojanen and boberz, why aren't you voting for somebody?

IN my case because I have lost myself in this game because i am so busy atm. Will get free on friday afternoon and then will be able to committ more time to the game. It doesnt help that recently whenever i do have half an hour or so I am unable to log on which makes me frustrated

[boberz]

@boberz:

IN my case because I have lost myself in this game because i am so busy atm. Will get free on friday afternoon and then will be able to committ more time to the game. It doesnt help that recently whenever i do have half an hour or so I am unable to log on which makes me frustrated

I don't think you've given an opinion on Sando yet. If that's correct, then you really should do it now. Do you like the points dybeck was pressing on Sando, or were you saying that he looked like a proactive town for going after someone regardless of how you felt about Sando?

It seems odd you're not voting for someone yet, given how recent some of your suspicions on people have been. Who looks scummier to you: Faraday or Richard? Is it possible that Espeonage is still scum, now that Pom has flipped town?

I dont really get the sando case tbh but I am sure one exists I dont ahve time ot read back yet. I think dybeck looked more towny (still dont like him let me make that clear) for pressing on sando there. But I liked sando's response at first and only glance.

I am on 15 hour days atm I just cannot committ to read properly until friday.

[boberz]

Sorry I havent been about guys, that was a very busy period for me. I will now become proprly active again.

I am using this time to catch up but expect a proper post from me tomorrow.

[boberz]

Firstly I do not like the fact people seem content to comment on ABR then Fos of vote for people with no explanation it is simply not good enough.

I think abr could still be scum but it is unlikely I began to understand what he was all about and this sort of thing is what he does. After two or three people mentioned this dybeck still went in on him with no further explanation except lynch all liars.

Amished uses the phrase "our mafia group" in post 1487. I dont like the phraseology and it is not somehting I would use as town. How scummy it is I dont know but worth mentioning.

I have read today properly and I am really worried that ABR is dominating conversation too much considering most cannot conceive of scum doing it. I think Javert was good to move towards AMished, but tbh I dont see it. I am worried that nobody else commented on this, presumably they wanted to see how the conversation developed and avoid having their opinions nailed down. Bad.

[boberz]

I think Javert was good to move the conversation on and bring it on to you. But I personally didnt think you came off looking scummy. I thought you answered his points well and I had not put you on my suspicion list.

[boberz]

@boberz: So you thought I was possibly scummy before and wanted somebody to question me?

No, I didnt really think you were scummy at any point, although it was not a strong read. It was more the fact discussion was moved that I liked, you were as good as anyone. Why is this an issue?

[boberz]

Because i was extremely busy and was effectively BLA for most of that week. As I had explained a couple of times.

[boberz]

I have been worried about Sera for quite a while now (I am certain that I have said this before in case people think I am jumping on it). I agree with most of what ahs been said but I also have a new point.

In Sera's latest post it was desperate to make clear that Nick could still be scum. The only time I ahve ever spoken like that was as scum. It was more about trying to keep a lynch possible than actually push that lynch because they are scummy. It seemed very bad to me.

I have also been tickled by ckd recently who I dont think has contributed much recently. The best example was the last post where he moaned at people for FOSing without reasoning but then voting without an obvious reason. He hardly tried to stimulate discussion.

[boberz]

I have also been tickled by ckd recently who I dont think has contributed much recently. The best example was the last post where he moaned at people for FOSing without reasoning but then voting without an obvious reason. He hardly tried to stimulate discussion.

really is that what I did?..or did I comment that "fos"es should be votes?...

Well fair enough you did do what you said, but unqualified votes are bad aswell as unqualified votes.

---

You say I am quick to point fingers, I was actually very slow deliberately avoiding what amished was getting at for quite a while. Because I knew as soon as I raised suspicion on somebody I would be shouted hypocrite at, unfortuantly it does not detract from your or anybody elses scumminess.

Sera wagon would be good I suppose, so

vote Sera

dybeck has been rubbing me up the wrong way for a long time but I read him and found nothing ssubstantial.

A wagon on you would also be good.

I would not support an Amished wagon.

I still dont know about nick and esp.

[boberz]

I have just at no point considered him scummy. It is hard to prove a negative if that makes sense so I cannot point to a specific incident but he looks ok to me.

[boberz]

Nico's claim, with his reference to CMAR's direction looks like it could be good actually, because it is the sort of thing you can tell he may have been itching to say for a while. Equally it could be that he is trying to deflect attention away from a fake claim bringing in something else to discuss at the same time. So I am null on that.

IN fact he has been talking as a poss vig for a while I can see him as a vig. An element of lurking and undermining people's argument without addressing the points made but not overall scummy I dont think.

It appears my gut was wrong. Unless my head is wrong.

I suppose part of what was ugging me was occasionally he seemed to accidentally hint about understanding the game more than us, but that could be true of a vig as well.

[boberz]

Sorry that went into the wrong game.

[boberz]

boberz...wrong game?

Yes I have two games.

[boberz]

I still think Sera is annoying, and I do not feel my point was adequately answered. I think with Nick earlier Sera was more interested in keeping a lynch viable rather than actually find scum this is a clear difference of POV from allignment.

[boberz]

Have not been able to log in for the last day and a bit. Will post tomorrow. morn.

[boberz]

Apparently I am scum bet the actual reasons seem very far and few between. The main one is my praise of Javert when he was attacking Amished, and this not looing good. Unfortuantly before I can answer this somebody is going to have to tell me why this wasnt good.

There are still soome good points on Sera.

A couple of people have been suggesting Sera's activity with BV cleares him. Tbh I dont see it. Admittedly it isnt scummy either but I am not really seeing it myself.

Of course I could be scum because I am "weird" and "feel off", Or I might be like Nick, who play cannot be shaken.

Aha, Farside thinks that Dybeck (one of the more suspected players) is right when he raises suspicion of me. Of course I explained in detail and debated this very point at the time. Explaining clearly I thought the claim was true. It would not serve my ends (if I were scum) to change my mind so vehemently in one post after one claim of vT.
After this half sentence accusing me he makes another two points why dybeck is scum. Silly silly post from Faraday I think. #1610

---

I kind of feel that people have been able to piece together the gut scum read I had on dybeck and I like that. I am not a fan of us moving of sera like this. I am by no means convinced by the idea that dybeck has beeen cleared.

It was interesting to see how quickly sera jumped on faraday.

[boberz]

It is not a cop investigation that is for sure.

ABR sees mafia as more of a personal game I think, so he only reveals what he wants to when it suits him rather than when it suits town. Atleast that is what I have picked up over this game.

suprisingly enough boberz (one 'b') is not the last scum. NB I only wrote that so I could correct the spelling.

[boberz]

I still dont like people, without reasoning, saying they would be happy with my lynch or I look slightly scummy or other things like this. It gives me no oppourtunity to improve, it gives me no chance to answer the points, but it doesmean every one else feels they can also legitimately get away with accusing me of nothing.

I did contribute to the Sera case as it was building rather than just hopping on. I admitt I lurked a bit in the middle but it was more or less a VLA.

the tone of Esp's defence seems towny to me, but the 'why should I scumhunt defence' is crap! and horrible and a disgrace to all humankind.

[boberz]

I still dont like people, without reasoning, saying they would be happy with my lynch or I look slightly scummy or other things like this. It gives me no oppourtunity to improve, it gives me no chance to answer the points, but it doesmean every one else feels they can also legitimately get away with accusing me of nothing.

I was concerned yesterday when you hadn't (by that time) given a read on Sando or placed a vote.

And you already gave your defense, that you were V/LA and didn't see any case. That could explain things, but I think not having a Sando read makes you a possible Sando-buddy regardless of the circumstances.

@boberz: did you vote BV on day 1 to make sure we didn't get a no lynch? Was there no other reason? Why did you switch back to Richard when there wasn't that much time in the day?

I accept now that you have had a small case of sorts on me better than most of the players who seem to be suspicious of me for no given reason.

I voted bv because I was worried about deadline and my potentially being away from the cpu. I was then convinced by bv's lack of understanding about a roleclaim which turned out to be false but unvoted. I then knew I could be online and hoped that a last minute counterwagon would com back to Richard who had a lways been my favoured lynch. My voting him was an attempt to tempt any other deserters into voting Richard.

[boberz]

I still dont like people, without reasoning, saying they would be happy with my lynch or I look slightly scummy or other things like this. It gives me no oppourtunity to improve, it gives me no chance to answer the points, but it doesmean every one else feels they can also legitimately get away with accusing me of nothing.

I was concerned yesterday when you hadn't (by that time) given a read on Sando or placed a vote.

And you already gave your defense, that you were V/LA and didn't see any case. That could explain things, but I think not having a Sando read makes you a possible Sando-buddy regardless of the circumstances.

@boberz: did you vote BV on day 1 to make sure we didn't get a no lynch? Was there no other reason? Why did you switch back to Richard when there wasn't that much time in the day?

I accept now that you have had a small case of sorts on me better than most of the players who seem to be suspicious of me for no given reason.

I voted bv because I was worried about deadline and my potentially being away from the cpu. I was then convinced by bv's lack of understanding about a roleclaim which turned out to be false but unvoted. I then knew I could be online and hoped that a last minute counterwagon would com back to Richard who had a lways been my favoured lynch. My voting him was an attempt to tempt any other deserters into voting Richard.

[boberz]

@Jahudo, I think Espy is telling the truth about his claim. Your thoughts about that?

I'd like to see if Espy has anything to say about his playstyle here compared to that game Sera linked.

At a quick glance I don't think the linked game is comparable to this one, and I don't think everyone plays more open just because they are VT. But the claim doesn't make me think he's more likely to be town, and I still don't see how Espy's play here is normal for him.

---------------------------

I voted bv because I was worried about deadline and my potentially being away from the cpu.

That checks out.

I was then convinced by bv's lack of understanding about a roleclaim which turned out to be false but unvoted.

And your unvoted followed his claim, so that checks out. But there was only 2 days until deadline and with your vote the Richard wagon had 5 votes. They needed 6 votes in 2 days. (not impossible, but starting to be a stretch)

I then knew I could be online and hoped that a last minute counterwagon would com back to Richard who had a lways been my favoured lynch.

And you were online the morning he was lynched, so that wasn't a lie.

My voting him was an attempt to tempt any other deserters into voting Richard.

But the only evidence you had was that his claim sounded genuine. It was just your gut reaction, and everyone was going to have their own reactions and probably not be persuaded otherwise.

It didn't look like you were trying to stop the wagon, but be okay if other people saw it the same way on their own. So why push the other wagon so weakly if you thought BV was town?

I know it checks out, that is because it is true.

On the going on to Richard. I knew it was a bit of a long shot but I was not convinced on Pom and was very convinced on bv safeness. It wasnt only gut on bv's claim but I thought I had a solid point. I admitt I was wrong and did not express it well enough but when I first unvoted I thought most people would. It then transpired otherwise but at the time I was not to know this.

---

ABR why does Nick suddenly find me scummy? Or are you just slinging enough mud that some sticks?

Ckd you talk as if you are bargaining for the compromise lynch, or beginning to nd dont like the two on offer. But there are only two proper wagons. Care to vote somebody so that we can atleast have a starting point?

I cannot say much about Amish's meta having never played with him. However I do not sense he is scum at all. I just do not see how his play has benef

[boberz]

I hate how stubborn this town is, btw.

@Javert: If either of them are scum, Espy has much more chance of being scum than Seraphim I believe. Espy knows his meta (therefore *can* tailor it). However, his activity can also be explained by scum not wanting to post a lot and fade into the background. As soon as anybody brings up their own meta; you really can't trust it overall.

For your reference to 222: I've seen scum do that. Course, they got lynched for it; but I've seen scum do that.

@dybeck: Here, let's follow this flow chart:

Who has the information that you provided through their role's?
(A: Scum and Power Roles)

Power Role branch:
Would they paint a target on their back (also known as: are you un-NKable):
(A: No)

Therefore, no Power Role reason.

Scum branch:
Do you have a NK that's against you:
(A: No)

Are you therefore more open to revealing information since you won't die at night?:
(A: Yes)

Is human nature such that people like to brag about stuff they know?
(A: Yes)

Have *I* {Amished} been caught as scum by revealing too much from a scum role?:
(A: Yes)

So, pretty much the only motivation for you to reveal the information you have (whatever motivation it is) is NOT from a townie.

Now if only everybody felt this way

I dont actually disagree with you on this element of what you have been saying. I seek a slightly different disagreement.

That is, I am not convinved he has given info away that is the priviledged knowledge of PRs and scum. Fair enough he gave a very specific idea more specific than any others but I do not see how it was likely to have come from a priviledged decision.

[boberz]

The theory of bv or faraday being scum with richard. I have completely forgotten why in truth.

The waffling was more a checking in post, to whine at a lurker and ensure I had made my view of the last few posts clear. It was not waffling I was showing that I acknowledged the arguments that were being made but they didnt seem to be contradicting my own. Hence my conclusions were the same.

In 531 I honestly was not talking about any player/s in particular for otherwise I would have said so. It was more an impression of him being a lynch that people were doing because they had run out of ideas rather than actively pursuing properly.

I didnt only post lurkers as scum suspects in that post. So you are factually incorrect.

Post 606: why not? In fact if you had read the posts before this I have already answered for this exchange. You are just throwing mud and hoping it sticks as well.

'links to bv' you must be linking the wrong post here. You moan at me for not defending bv who I though was safe and link a post where I staunchly defend him?

I have also explained, and I did at the time explain why I was on richard. It was not becuase of overreaction etc. That was a load of crap it was for numerous other reasons I explained at the time. And answered for at the time.

Why is richard lurking making him more scummy than bv. Because at the time I believe he was lurking in a more scummy way, and also lurking more than bv. I also explained this at the time.

The Sera case was to some extent dependent on Richard: firstly sera treating anti-town and scummy differently on richard than me; secondly being inconsistent on the richard wagon and thirdly richard being in the wishy washy top three in Sera's list (again with inconsistency). Considering Richard was my favoured lynch and a more plausable target at the time there is nothing scummy in what I did.

---

I was more or less non existent for days 2 and 3 maybe I should have replaced out, maybe not. I am never sure on the merits of both options. The General Election in GB was called and I am heavilly involved in politics. I posted that VLA in this game, and (in case you want a reference) in my other games. You can accept that or not, but it is the reason.

I am not active lurking now.

[boberz]

Haha I totally had no idea farside was confirmed innocent, he was hanging on the outside of my scumdar. Epic Fail. It will teach me to be disenfranchised from a game for a day or more.

Based on your recent comments however farside I must have misunderstood this

If you believe the claim and believe the person is town you hold on to it as town. As scum you fear the flip knowing the person is scum

I presumed by this you were insinuating that I was scared of bv's scum flip. However the quote you were pointing me to was one whereI was staunchlydefending bv. I do notmind you not liking my defending bv (perfectlyunderstandable) but I do not understand I was in any way scared.

---

@Amished - The thought of the power transferring to scum if used in strong mode had actually crossed my mind aswell, so I can believe it came a town alligned player. What I didnt do was voice that speculation (because itwas just that and it doesnt help town in this situation imo) it is the motivation behind voicing it that I am interested in.

[boberz]

boberz: I may have the wrong quote in mind but I recall feeling you out when you said that you believed bv was saying he was VT. I tied you two together based on your defense. You seemed really scared and nervous at the idea of being teamed together. You later stated you acted that way in another game and I think I gave you a null tell later for it.
I still feel suspicious of you non the less.

Yo9u are completely misrembering this. The fact you didnt even link the right post demonstrates it somewhat.

You asked me to provide a link of me overreacting etc as town. I did so in the very next post. You accepted that it was null. In fact for me it is probably town, I didnt do it at all untill prompted in my only scum game so far. the fact I was overreacting about bv was meaningless to this point itself.

I suggest you go back and read before you accuse me of this.

I did defend bv, I did it forcefully (after I unvoted) provided reasoning albeit wrong in hindsight. There was no wishy washyness there was no oppourtunity for me to go back (unless I suppose if it was to avoid a nolynch) onto bv. It was not done in a scummy way.

[boberz]

I thought I was second in your list Amished.

[boberz]

I truly cannot find anything to say, but I hate it when people say that. But I am checkingin regularly.

I find it strange that Sera still has me high on a scumlist despite my clearly refuting all of his arguments to nothingness as far as I can see. Have I missed something Sera, or are you just stubborn?

I dont really see the points against Nick either if I am honest. I am sure it has been layed out so tomorrow (I have times at weekends unlike most others I sense) I will have a read.

[boberz]

I have read back on Faraday and in Post 9 (iso) he quotes Papa Zito hypoing vig and also does so. We know the vig was killed and we know he knew about this. I certainly thought thid made Papa Zito look like a vig, this is strolling into Wifom, so I will stop this line of thought here.
At the time I thoiught he was setting up a potential vig claim but it is possible he was trying to smokescreen the Papa Zito from a town motivation. So null read on this (which I think is the main point that has been done)

Then when Esp says "papa zito is vig" faraday says "LMAO" in Post 11. (NB this may be a town point for Esp).

So basically I had a gut scum read on him fairly early, I think I sensed a bit of coaching to richard which partly helped it, but I now dont read this anymore anyway.

In the middle of the game he seems to be beneficial to town.

I notice a lot of VLA throughout the game, but pot calling kettle I suppose.

His posts have got a lot shorter since he has been under suspicion, quite what that means I dont know but worth mentioning.

I suppose the simple answer is I dont know what his allignment is.

[boberz]

I didnt think it made you suspicious really, but it was just something to say about you when in short I dont know.

[boberz]

boberz: I may have the wrong quote in mind but I recall feeling you out when you said that you believed bv was saying he was VT. I tied you two together based on your defense. You seemed really scared and nervous at the idea of being teamed together. You later stated you acted that way in another game and I think I gave you a null tell later for it.
I still feel suspicious of you non the less.

Yo9u are completely misrembering this. The fact you didnt even link the right post demonstrates it somewhat.

You asked me to provide a link of me overreacting etc as town. I did so in the very next post. You accepted that it was null. In fact for me it is probably town,

I didnt do it at all untill prompted in my only scum game so far.

the fact I was overreacting about bv was meaningless to this point itself.

I suggest you go back and read before you accuse me of this.

I did defend bv, I did it forcefully (after I unvoted) provided reasoning albeit wrong in hindsight. There was no wishy washyness there was no oppourtunity for me to go back (unless I suppose if it was to avoid a nolynch) onto bv. It was not done in a scummy way.

Amished answered your second question in bold. I presumed you were reading him as well as me.

Are you actually serious??? You are being really silly.

I certainyl didnt answer for him here I posted after him. And I only wrote what he did in plain english I did not add anything.

It was 7 I posted once in day 1 also. Either way not important, I have not been around that long I consider my activity level fairly high.

How is me defending somebody who you clearly cant understand a scumtell???

I really think you are being silly now poro. you were the one asking for what he meant. You cant understand when he posts, when I do you moan that I shouldnt answer for him. Now to remind myself of initial impressions and match them

In my iso post 40 I used this as an example.

I am fed up of constantly telling you I overreact as town. Read the thread for yourself in future, this is the second conversation about this.

[boberz]

The game was PYP4, but I have probably sone it in any game. Choose one at random from the search function.

[boberz]

Site has been terrible for me to log on over the last few days.

Sera, you are not going to prove you innocence by refusing to make cases. When you started stating suspicion on me there was more than a week to go so I do not accept that as an excuse. You have been deliberately coi because you do not really have a case and will therefore have to regurgitate old stuff about bv and overreaction which doesnt make sense.

I had a read of Nick and will post about it later. Website allowing.

[boberz]

What did I dismiss out of hand Sera? I am a tad lost in this conversation now.

[boberz]

Sorry for being away for hte weekend, I was playing frisbee.

However I was expecting a massive catch up sesh. Is it required no! Because you all have forgottent he art of reason. Rather than bitching at each other for not providing reasoning, practice what you preach.

I am expecting dybeck and esp I think.

Dybeck seemed to try and spark off a counterwagon very early today (i consider it counter because an esp wagon was somewhat inevitable) and it seems a tad out of character tol not have reasoning. I will have to track back to see what else I notice.

[boberz]

Fair enough dybeck. Are you voting faraday out of habit then, or just to play to your own meta, or do you care to repeat/restate your case to actually help town win?

[boberz]

I've said a bunch of stuff about Faraday over the course of this game. Go back and reread if you want to see.

Without pressure, I'm not sure what you expect a hypothetical Faraday-scum to do. Fly under the radar and quietly join in on town lynches would be my bet.

Which is, of course, exactly what he's doing. What has he contributed to the town? What were his contributions to the two scum lynches we have managed so far? Where is his successful active scumhunting?

Crap post.

If you think faraday is scum you make a case. I dont care if it is the tenth time you have had to make it. It will help town and that is your job if you are town.

[boberz]

I have an exam soon, post to follow after that.

[boberz]

Been trying to get on all day now finally I get on and it is too late to think. I have reread dybeck in iso a promised and ahve some comments to make. Fingers crossed in the morning.

But I think it is him.

So

vote dybeck

[boberz]

I would be happy with a Faraday lynch I think, but we are getting to the stage when we have to be particularly carefull with lynches and I would be doing the game a disservice if I did not push dybeck.

---

On that note.

Dybeck has been kicking around the back of my head for a while. For most of the game it has been a gut read, and that is a large part of my thinking.

Firstly dybeck provides content in seperate posts to his votes. It is an annoying habit when reading in iso because of scrolling up and down that is required. However it seems to me that he picks obscure people for the sake of it, almost the complete reverse of the sheep following he accuses many of us of.

I still find the tone of dybeck suggesting Nick roleclaimed, of his debate with me and his iso post 22 a bit off. The roleclaim debate, because firstly it looked nothing like a roleclaim but secondly if there is even a sniff of a dodgy roleclaim you should establish what has gone on before you go all out and attack. His continuous misrepping of me in ouf debate a while ago and iso post 22 just looked like copying the best bits of everything else that had been said.

[boberz]

Is it possible that the karma targetting means that the person being targetted doe snot get a negative consequence, but all other PRs get a negative consequence.

I also do not wish to answer the question about whether I felt boosted. I trust anyone with usefull info to leave it untill the right time until a reveal.

Shanba has baffled me with ssuch a clever roleclaim. Because we have no idea what it will do so have no idea how to check it. Also we do not really know whether the role is alignment spsecific. We also dont know whether it is true or ahs been cooked up very cleverly.

I still suspect dybeck, he seemed to want to undermine that claim without really looking at it froman independent perspective.

[boberz]

I am a tad confused now. I dont see any way that this claim can be verified. But one way we can examine it is to see what Faraday had to say during the setup speculation. So Im on it.

Also we have taken our eye slightly off who we plan to lynch, if we can make dybeck go away I will be happy. I think it is him and he seems to be a lot of peoples second or third place candidate.

[boberz]

I have not really thought about a SK or anything. But Sando could easily be bussing two people at once, because he senses that one will go off the boil when the other flips. It is actually quite a clever thing to do I think.

[boberz]

My exact role Dybeck?

[boberz]

Dybeck, did Patrick use the word vanilla?

[boberz]

Also scum can have investigative roles as well.

[boberz]

Dybeck you said I could ask to verify your claim on me. You have failed to do so therefore I asked for clarification and now you refuse to give it.

Did Patrick use the term Vanilla? Am I a vanilla townie, or a Vinalla Villager, be very careful I am already giving you a second chance.

Also would you be able to give Esp's role if required (note I am not asking for it but you do have the info)?

Even if you dont tell us the difference do you understand the difference of your weak and strong modes. And have you felt them change on any day.

Why If I am whichever role I you say I am did you warn me off breadcrumbing a role earlier today?

[boberz]

That post read like it came from scum to me. Particularly the last point:

"Wouldn't have been able to do so" sounds to me like cooking up a fake claim. If you are a power role you can always claim, whether I breadcrumb or not makes no difference.

As a cop he knows whether I am a power role but as scum he doesnt know my whole role, I think Patrick would be careful to get the wording right especially as there has already been a discussion on the use of the word vanilla earlier, and he bothered to provide a standard vanilla messege in the OP.

[boberz]

As far as I am concerned dybeck claimed he knew my exact role and didnt.

[boberz]

I am a villager, but considering how specific the mod has been to make clear we are villagers, and I believe there was a discussion about how the roles could be different earlier it is not a mistake Patrick would make.

[boberz]

Bob. I know why you would be sceptical. Vanilla townie goes with whatever name we got given. Still explains the role.

We?

That is the one thing we know your not.

[boberz]

Bob. I know why you would be sceptical. Vanilla townie goes with whatever name we got given. Still explains the role.

We?

That is the one thing we know your not.

And how do you figure this???

Because you practically told us. And I do not think we should not mention it because scum already know he is a PR of some sort so it only hurts the town not to know what. Scum will probs target him now anyway, unless he is scum which is still possible.

[boberz]

I didnt immediately vote dybeck because he was half right and I was already voting for him??? Did you want me to revote?

I have been deliberately sketchy on Espy because I dont really know. Dybeck allowing me to ask my role but not espy seemed a bit like it undermined espy's claim.

If he is town which assumes dybeck's claim is true, a big leap then I suppose there are reasons, but not many for Espy to lie. Unless I am completely wrong and dybeck knows espy is a villager/vanilla something or other. somethin else that sound vaguely nearly like a role that a role cop can sort of cliam he has checked nad get away with it.

[boberz]

Sorry for being missing in action but I had problems when the site moved. I perhaps could of sorted them out but I was a tad busy and didnt. ANyway I am back now and determined to actually kill dybeck. GO! GO! GO!

[boberz]

Of course, hence why I am not voting for you.

I am not tunnelling I have just not actually had one of my suspects killed yet and it looks like we are losing.

[boberz]

I have no idea anymore.

I want dybecks claim proper.

[boberz]

Now we have a claim that somebody doesnt even know the name of their role?

I cannot be expected to know whether I can differenciate between rolecop allignments if the player staunchly refuses to give his whole role claim. I do not see why people dont realise why this is so bad. He must explain! If he doesnt the info will die with him or even worse it will only be known by scum.

I am still confused and bored.

[boberz]

Why did nobody seem to notice Nick's first claim, then the second and third everyone suddenly gets so edgy.

Dybeck stop fannying around.

[boberz]

Oh no sorry people did react to the ifrst claim I dont know how I got the othe impression.

[boberz]

But I'll post it again...

Vote: Dybeck

Maybe you didn't get that because I'm whatever that role is, you know, the outsider one, as a hidden role? I remember reading about it but I forget the name for it. Miller? I dunno, but my PM says I'm town-aligned.

Here but as I say people reacted. I dont relly know what I was saying when I moaned at people for not noticing. Perhaps the tone of expecting a previous claim in the post confused me, I dont know.

[boberz]

At last somebody has got the wording right. We are

ordinary

villagers, not any of the other roles being banded about. Not that it matters any more.

Dybeck should claim.

ABR has been more helpful recently.

[boberz]

Jeez. I investigate at night like a regular rolecop, but I only get to find out whether someone is "vanilla" or "not-vanilla". (OMG DYBECK SAID VANILLA AGAIN KILLZ HIM IMMEDIATELY ETC)

Yes, this sounds like a noob-scum claim, which is why I thought I'd breadcrumb it in the first four words of each sentence in this slightly oddly-worded post from Day 1:

I find vanilla townies

tend to get lynched in any event once they're forced to a claim.

I completely understand that

this is the usual way of things and I expect bv310 to bite the dust for this reason.

It's hard to believe

that boberz is exhibiting some superior skill by unvoting - seems more like a preemptive positioning.

But I hope you

will take a closer look at boberz overnight.

Believe me, later on,

we're going to need to lynch him.

Now that you've effectively rendered my strong mode useless, shall we go and lynch some scum?

Actually if you had explained this before then I would not have suspected you for saying vanilla. Also, if you had explained what your role did, if not your targets people may have been more happy to believe you.

A few questions...

Do you get any info on allignment?
Why did you choose the targets you chose?
Did you breadcrumb your specific targets anywhere?
Explain the exact difference between your weak and strong modes please, and which you used on whom?

[boberz]

Ok there should be an investigative role in the game I think. But dybeck's seems quite weak I think. I would be suprised to have this role and a role blocker and a way for roles to malfunction. Partucularly if there is no massive protown power roles.

Either shanba or dybeck are scum I think. But not both. Both the cliams have to be correct but neither are allignment specific.

Behind that ABR has made two or three useful comments today more than usual but still not enough. I think I would be very annoyed if I didnt suspect him, but for a strange reason I dont.

I cant see why dybeck didnt check abr at any point, seems really obvious to me after a fake claim and a lot of arsing around.

[boberz]

He has already explained it is not allignment stuff.

vote dybeck

you are losing the luxury of telling us what you will and wont say.

[boberz]

Dybeck if you want the game ot move away from you so easily then I suggest you explain all.

I find dybeck's 'im not the lynch for today so focus on someone else' a very self preservation like attitude, which is not good.

[boberz]

Does it differenciate between scumvanillas, or scumprs????

This is important, it is the logic that clears me, but if you have got a vanilla result and are assuming this is ok when really it does nothing for you then we are in angerous territory.

[boberz]

Dybeck: 'can i delegate my vote to someone'

read

Dybeck: 'Can I make a quick lynch much easier for my scumteam?'

[boberz]

Explain how your play is actually helping town?

And if you are sure you are dying why continue to not share your info?

DO you realise scum have a much better probability of being able to work out what you did?

Why use your strong mode every night?

[boberz]

I will out you at all costs. Your strong mode is not useless, it means their fakeclaims have to be cooked up and amde more complicated, therefore we will have more chance to catch them out. Has it crossed your mind that scum might have already been able to work out what you do exactly. Your role is not 'yours' it does not belong to you it belongs to town this means that you should do what is best for town.

You have realised that we are stuck on you slightly yet you stubbornly refuse to help. Full claim now.

Am I tunnelling you, no. I know exactly who I am on tommorow if you are not scum.

vote dybeck

[boberz]

Btw you are very inconsistent. You accuse me of making you ineffectual, but also claim you are the only player who can stop them winning this game.

Do you believe that if town win this game and you are dead you win?

[boberz]

In which case he needs to answer some of our questions like for example what happens when he targets scum. Does he find out that they are 'vanilla'.

He should also explain properly why his claim has been so suspicious.

He should also explain why for the last day and a half he has harmed towns chances of winning.

---

Considering you think that who should we get rid of Esp?

[boberz]

That is indeed true. But lets actually kill someone.

[boberz]

unvote

FOS shanba

Why L1? When only a post or two above Esp and I are musing about how the day needs more discussion?

Essentially if dybeck is town I am fairly certain you are scum, any thoughts?

[boberz]

ABR are you a survivalist?

[boberz]

Sorry, I meant are you somebody who sees winning as staying alive?

Or maybe I missed the sarcasm.

[boberz]

Good.

in the style of ABR

unvote vote ABR

[boberz]

I wasnt using your info dybeck, in fact I have. So what result would you get if you found a mafia goon? (ie would it be eplicitly non-vanilla)

He will not let you proxy your vote(I hope), but mass wifom creator there for when you die and flip scum.

Please take a few moments before your VLA to answer all the questions. If not you will probably die and we will lose your info. It seems to me that we will have to kill you if you vla.

[boberz]

Ok the end of lurking everybody. Iv stopped so no excuses any more.

Javert, who are the two remaining scum?
Nick, when was your last comment with content? DO you still agree with it?
Shanba, how do you want to proceed, with dybeck gone among other things?
Esp, what do you think of a Nick, Shanba scum team?
CKD what do you think of my recent play?

[boberz]

No, it was more tryiing to get you tocontribute to the game. Anythin original to say?

[boberz]

Do we definately think there is an sk then and it is nothing to do with 'karma' especially as dybeck has apparently used his strong mode every day.

I think scum had me down as a mislynch target you see, so I dont really see dybeck as scum as he cleared me. I had a pretty poor game especially in the middle so it seems strange to clear me. So maybe that is evidence towards sk rather than scum if he is one of the two.

Still dont 100% see the Nick case, but his reaction to my questions (as an obvious attempt to stimulate discussion) were not as good as either Shanba or Javert.

If dybeck is scum I could see Javert as the partner, but otherwise I think Javert has been pretty solid.

Note: It also occurred to me that curiouskarmadog just asked today if anybody had any information that might help verify Shanba's claim. Yet dybeck remained silent. Now he claims that he had information as early as Day Five.

I think I missed this, what exactly are you talking about here?

[boberz]

ABR's useful posts included when he reminded me of the fact dybeck was the only person with investigative powers still a somewhat useful point, but I sense that if we used the karma thing properly which I doubt we have then our smaller powers could have been much more effective somehow. So I am more worried about using balancing as a point in this game. I am very interested in how this has actually been working exactly.

ABR also made me aware that he didnt want to kill Nick. I personally find this very usefull, I actually agree we shouldnt kill him today but tomorrow I will have to consider it.

I also unvoted dybeck when put at L1 and criticised Shanba for it, why didnt you question me CKD?

---

Javert are you suggesting there are two scum teams???

[boberz]

For me it was situational. Shanba's came a bit out of the blue, immediately after a couple of us had mused over how we wanted proper discussion and not to rush the day quite yet and becayse you have made your own proper point about how dybeck is the lynch for today. Whilst I am a long way from safe on you I am less confident on dybeck, because for me it is one or the other and shanba was 100% tipping the balance.

[boberz]

Javert did you suggest there were two scum teams?

[boberz]

One team just being a SK surely? I dont think I have seen that described as a team, more a faction. Why do you think there may be a second team (suggesting more than one person)?

[boberz]

Let's hope you finish soon as well.

[boberz]

boberz, I think this answers your question:

For starters, I think there are two or three scum remaining. Based on the nightkills, it looks like we still have a Mafia and a Serial Killer, so the only question is how many members of the Mafia are left.

"Team" might not be the best term to use, but the gist of my posting (such as the fact that I think dybeck is our Serial Killer) should make it clear that I think we're dealing with a Serial Killer and a Mafia.

Yes I saw this, it was more the wording team that I thought might contain some inside knowledge I was considering crucifying you for, but I can read it both ways.

[boberz]

So half the game are on VLA, the other half have been talking in circles for ages. Anyone any idea what to do?

I think dybeck should be hammered today but I worry about the warning he gave to me about breadcrumbing, I really worry he sees this game as a personal win and that is why he is being so secretive, and when he realised he was going to die gave up trying to help town. This worries me. But I am not sure I could justify not killing him, he has been scummy and evidence doesnt looke great, his claim was shoddy and he has refused to answer many questions, two days running, causing a loss of kill yday as well.

[boberz]

All the other roles the weak mode has been very guessable from the strong mode, I cannot think of an obvious weak mode from this and coincidentally dybeck doesnt have one.

It doesnt fit with flavour, calling them vanillas. This I understand if mafia goons are also vanillas, but apparently they definately arent. He shut off his one way out of that hole imo.

Why wasnt ABR checked?

[boberz]

You just read Jahudo!!! He has already confirmed he definately asked this, it was the only thing he was clear on.

Very clearly answered. Just plain didnt make sense.

[boberz]

You realise dybeck is VLA?

[boberz]

I believe he is a rolecop, there was no point in scum making up a rolecop and claiming a result in case they got it wrong. But the fact dybeck was reacting so inadequately and anti town in response was very strange. But after discussion I have no doubt he is a role cop, but show me how he can be on our side.

[boberz]

Do you recomend we just sit here for a few days then ABR?

[boberz]

vc

I cannot actually believe we are having this discussion. We are not going to find scum like this. We have all been shocking the whole way through the game, and I feel in the alst few pages I have had to physically prop up discussion.

Nick who should we kill off after dybeck if that happens?
ABR any words of wisdom?
Jahudo what do you think of ABR?
CKD how do you think the pace/lack of ambition from town has been impacting the game? What do you intend to do about it?
Esp, what do you make of dybeck asking you to proxy his vote?

[boberz]

So you believe dybeck Jahudo?

[boberz]

CKD, it had the intent of trying to spark conversation of any sort. I lump myself in as town but I feel I have upped my work rate and improved in this game day and I am trying to encourage all to push the game forward.

I think my random question stuff is working better than just sitting waiting for dybeck to return so he can refuse to answer questions for a while longer and we nearly miss the deadline again.

---

Dybeck asked for a proxy vote twice. First time I replied pretty speedily telling him in no uncertain terms that I would strongly object to that. Patrick quickly confirmed this would not be allowed.

Dybeck a bit later stated that he hoped patrick would change his mind so he could give it to Esp.

What I found interesting is that it was as if his second request was just trying to bait me (as I have obviously been getting a tad frustrated at dybeck) and trying to move attention away from what we were talking about. Which was his genaerally crap play. This made me suspect that he was perhaps an embarrassed townie rather than scum. I am edging away from dybeck again, but I ahve no idea where else to put my suspicions. Nick I suppose.

[boberz]

@mod

, I think Shanba is voting twice.

Ok if it is not dybeck I reckon ABR must be mafia. Because I dont think there is likely to be two scum on the dybeck wagon and ABR is the scummiest person not on it. If dybeck is scum then both Nick and Shanba are in prime bussing territory there.

[boberz]

Ok Esp am I right in assuming that a move on ABR was to try and set up a counterwagon to dybeck? What are your exact reasons for being on ABR? Why not on Shanba, that would be a bigger counterwagon.

[boberz]

You cant get an I told you so. Because it is the fact that nobody is discussing that is causing the problem not the asking for discussion.

[boberz]

I dont have a town read on shanba, but i dont have a scum one either. I have been tempted to hammer dybeck as well, but I would rather wake town up today than in a potential lylo.

[boberz]

A secondary killing role could be anything I think, because of the flavour it could be able to do some things one night other things other nights and be called something different probably. But could the second killings be a product of our greediness as town.

[boberz]

Thats nice. It looks to me like dybeck is going to go,I am happy to deliver the hammer. IN fact

vote dybeck

I cant be bothered to wait.

[boberz]

I have some ideas now. I sorted some stuff out in my mind today.

[boberz]

Hi all, I have been pretty poor in a couple of recent games. I lost interest half way through and only put the effort in once I was more or less confirmed. I am glad that there were suspicions of me being a PR I was doing my best to look like I was one, because I realised they were probably quite important.

As town I think we all got distracted by the idea of an SK, even before the claim. If we had taken a step back and thought about karma as a concept we should have been able to work out there were likely to only be two teams.

[boberz]

Can you explain why you refused to claim even when it became apparent it was completely dominating the game and we were going to go round and round in circles.

Also if you didnt want to go into it, why did you say that you were happy to answer questions.