SWN II: The Curse of the Nekomata (Game over!)

[Amished]

Howdy!

Syke, Star: Cut down the text. It's bad when I'm already starting to skim some of your "points".

Vote: Pom

For fake-scumhunting.

[Amished]

@Llama: I agree with the DP wagon (haven't really analyzed who's on it or not and my read on them which helps as well) for the early fishing comment, but it almost seems too easy and something I would hop on as scum; though it did go unnoticed for far too long.

@Syke:

1) you quoting me telling both of you to effectively stop posting spam is only adding to the problem.

2) I feel her scumhunting to be forced and falsified; which I would expect from scum. What more do you want explained?

[Amished]

What did you think I meant by "fake"?

Also, lol @ DP saying Llama isn't scumhunting. Where isn't he {Llama} scumhunting?

[Amished]

How many games have you played, Parama?

[Amished]

@Doc: So where did I answer a question for somebody else? I was lol'ing at your suggestion that Llama hasn't scumhunted ( 1. he has, and 2. you couldn't come up with the "proof" that he hasn't) which was outrageous.

Also:

I DocPotter have yet to receive a scum role at all, in any game.
I've replaced into games into scummy spots hoping to get one but no luck.

is loltastic too. Hey, I've never won more than 100 bucks playing pull-tabs. That means it'll never happen! (if you missed the point, that's a completely fallacious argument and does not pertain to your alignment now).

Finally, point to something that the people have done, not something that the people have if you're gonna make them appear scummy. Saying that somebody that has a post restriction is scum is Mod WIFOM and doesn't (and shouldn't) convince anybody. Maybe the mod made it so only townies had Restrictions, can you know? No.

However, this brings up something I want to explore more: Why is Ani the most scummy to you, and why aren't you voting him? (hint: the answer to the 2nd question is that you're scum as well)

Unvote
Vote: DocPotter

@Wolf: Top suspect and why?

[Amished]

@Saint: So if you can't analyze the game (which so far has been very tame for a bastard mod game); how can you get a read on anybody? Who's your 2nd suspect?

[Amished]

Because of this line:

Wasn't sure about it when the wagon was first forming but his reactions reek of scum.

I was trying to figure out how much experience you really had with experiencing scum flailing vs. town flailing with a join date that's basically 2 months old.

[Amished]

I didn't think it was contrived when you were town (Twitter Mafia).

[Amished]

But nothing is stopping you from scumhunting like that game if you're town.

If you have a town meta that you can play to; I would expect you to do that no matter if you're town or scum.

Anyways, meta attacks and defenses d1 = teh fail.

Who's your {Pom} 2nd suspect and why?

[Amished]

Sup mah homiez Ray and Reck.

Ok, so if it wasn't for the "townsperson" title under Rifka; I'd vote for .. him? right now. With the meta attack being the biggest scumread; I still might. Datadanne didn't do anything that I remember; so I wouldn't doubt scum in that spot either.

I abhor tubby's unvote (voted for pressure reasons, blah blah blah). So what reasons did you {Tubby} get that made you feel he's town now? (BTW, numbers count across all languages, so you can just do ISO or regular post numbers.)

[Amished]

So you basically unvoted so that *just in case* you can put your vote on somebody other than the person you found most scummy so far.

[Amished]

Dedicated was a moron if he said he/we have a post restriction. I don't.

[Amished]

He was just being stupid (Dedicated). There's no post restriction, nor has there ever been one for my slot.

[Amished]

ALSO: Why the FOOK are we worrying about post restrictions now that we know who has them? It's a great distraction for scum to look active WITHOUT SCUMHUNTING. Fooking look for scum or I park my vote on every single one of you.

[Amished]

Ok, so now that you've asked the same questions to 4? people, it's pretty damn easy to just copy the answers which isn't doing a damn thing for scumhunting. "Talk like an ass" is at least English and doesn't leave much room for any ambiguity where the languages do (due to translators both back and forward).

So I say deal and judge his reactions and motivations for said reactions.

[Amished]

Actually, DeathNote is more active lurking than SSK.

[Amished]

/IC hat on

Active lurking is posting so you don't get prodded, not participating at all. SSK has put out his own (french) opinions and a vote; which isn't active lurking, it's just not explaining himself.

/IC hat off

[Amished]

Sykedoc, why am I scum again?

I've already stated my reasons in many previous posts. Please go look for it as I shouldn't need to restate my reasons.

You know, I was curious about this as well and I looked back. As far as I can tell, syke believes Anon to be skilled; and would be scary if Anon were scum.

[Amished]

Unvote
Vote: Sykedoc

Namely 507; where he takes a position that he thinks that everything he does, the rest of the players will think as scummy. Because he can't see the townie side of anything, he didn't do anything until pressured. This signals to me that he's not a townie as he can't even think that him continuing to play like "normal" would absolve him, especially with the low amount of pressure that was really applied to him at the time.

I don't even care that he's softclaimed a power role earlier, scum get them too. His actions say scum.

[Amished]

<3 Johnny Dep... RayFrost

[Amished]

I had a lot of fun in a hydra role, we could do that if you're up for it. I don't know if I have the time for another full game at the moment; but a half-game wouldn't be too bad. You do play a lot different than I do, so it might be interesting to see how you play "behind the pirate accent".

[Amished]

/me expresses my dream to have a dayvig for Wolf.

Now I just need to convince SCoug...

[Amished]

.... none of my case was AtE, but does consider behavior. I'm a "natural" scumhunter as I don't really look at votecounts, or anything like that but I do see stuff that doesn't make sense coming from a town perspective. In your {syke's} case: I believe your reaction to come from scum as you don't feel that anything you can do in this game will redeem yourself. If you were town, you'd have the belief (especially with... 3? votes on you at the time?) that you can prove your townieness by being yourself. But instead you feel that no matter what you do you're going to look scum. I view this to be a scum mindset as you know you're guilty and you can't redeem yourself through standard means.

[Amished]

<3 Yuna? Looks like her, but I <3 you more, Pom

[Amished]

A drunk PR. That's unbelievable and bastardly (which, oddly enough, makes it somewhat believable). That'd actually be a fun PR to have, as long as you're actually drunk while posting. Wonder if SCoug is providing the booze money.

Bring enough for everybody, is my philosophy.

[Amished]

RECK! WHYYYYYYYYY? WHY MUST LIFE BE SO CRUEL?

Meh, enjoy your homework... That's karma for abandoning me like this.

[Amished]

Richard, why are you scared of parama?

"he will rip a cast to shredz along with you"? If that ever discouraged anybody, I'll eat a shoe.

I also highly advise you to use forbiddan's style of drunk posting if possible, your mix and match crap isn't fun to get through at all.

[Amished]

I have no excuse for my vote on wolf. I misread his posts :/ Go ahead, lynch me for it. I dare you.

I like dares.

Also, I don't like setting up lynches.

Unvote
Vote: Parama

Sorry Ray; maybe this time you can join me! <3

[Amished]

... Really Bogre? You're supporting a meta defense (and ignoring the non-meta implications of a case) without actually putting the meta forth yourself. Hell, I'd take a bet that you didn't even read the linked material in any case. Furthermore, if somebody was so aware of himself (and his meta) as Syke so obviously is, don't you think that it'd be that much easier to replicate said meta?

tl; dr version: Bogre, you're either an idiot or scum. Right now I'm leaning towards the latter. Also: META IS FOOKING WORTHLESS ON ALL ACCOUNTS.

[Amished]

Yeah, hell with superficialness.

Unvote
Vote: Bogre

Llama, let's turn this game around

[Amished]

[1]I'm actually leaning more towards the thought that Docpotter was being easy towards mislynch, or possibly coaching Syke, in their connection.

[2]I've been debating this for a bit: Syke's case was based on a lot of meta, but he seemed to fulfill that meta case to my thoughts that he was playing similarly to what he had done before, despite claims to the contrary. [3]It's my opinion that it's escalation beyond the initial meta(which is meta and less worthwhile to begin with), without much reason.

Vote Docpotter

1) This doesn't make sense as any combination of the two beyond town-town or scum-scum; and the former (t-t) only if they trusted each other; which obviously isn't the case. Coaching doesn't work unless you can be fairly certain (or know) the other persons alignment and can trust their judgement.

2) You FOOKING ignore all of the valid points against Syke; relegating it ALL to meta. I know I don't give a shit about meta; and it's never been a consideration for me at all. So that's pure and unadulterated BS.

Secondly, if you think that the meta discussion is noise (3; and post 609), why are you attributing a positive read to him for bringing it up sufficiently?

In essence, since you seem to have misunderstood me:

The -only- redeeming factor of the case on him was that he, at the beginning of this game, claimed to be playing differently

but that

he seemed, to me at least, to be playing exactly the same.

I'm not supporting that case.

Plus, Amished, wtf are you talking about? Why would he want to replicate said meta if the

case on him was that he was playing -too- his meta and that he was scum in the other game

?

Bolding and italics are mine.

Regarding the italics, you're still "redeeming him" for bringing up meta which you call noise (and therefore should be a nulltell in your book).

Regarding the bold, if you had a consistent stance on meta (which seems pretty clear that you don't); this should be damning of him. If he's playing the same as scum, then wouldn't he more likely be scum? But nope, he's more townie for bringing up that he's playing differently (when you say that he isn't).



tl;dr: ITT Bogre scorns meta, attributes town points for bringing up meta in defense; when said meta matches Bogre's view of Syke-scum when all of this should be null in his book.

[Amished]

@Richard: funny, bringing up meta. There are a couple "names" around here that I respect and only one person that I have a meta with due to the fact that I've played in about 7-8 games, and hydra'd a large normal with over the course of my tenure here. Everything else with meta is bogus to me. However, thank you for being a bit more readable.

[Amished]

@parama: I decided that I believed more in my own case than in Llama's, and I know and trust RayFrost as well.

@Bogre: *chuckle* ok, let me see if I get this straight then:

1. Not giving him a positive evaluation. Giving him a 'Docpotter seems more likely scum' evaluation.

So you're giving somebody that you barely talked about more scumpoints than somebody that you are

I'm not fucking redeeming him for bringing up his meta, I'm -implicating- him.

"implicating" for bringing up meta.

And now it is you that I feel is not understanding my point: I don't care if he really reads the same to you or not as another game. You are attributing pro-town points (by not voting syke, when you barely mention doc) basically for only defending himself with meta (as that's probably about 90% of his defensive contribution this game).

If you want to look at a small part of the non-meta points, I suggest you ISO me for my case on him. Apparently you missed that completely as I talked about it twice after seeing the whole attack be dismissed due to meta after I voted and posted my case against him by somebody else.

[Amished]

Perhaps I don't understand your point because you fail to have a solid one and you're making it up as you go.

Please, tie your point together, using *all* of your posts lately to present what you really think. You don't have anything to hide, do you?

[Amished]

@Bogre: It's because you don't have a good stance to make me understand.

Either you believe in meta or you don't. If you don't, nothing that meta brings up should give town points (or at the very least less-scum points). Here's your original post:

I'm actually leaning more towards the thought that Docpotter was being easy towards mislynch, or possibly coaching Syke, in their connection.

I've been debating this for a bit: Syke's case was based on a lot of meta, but he seemed to fulfill that meta case to my thoughts that he was playing similarly to what he had done before, despite claims to the contrary. It's my opinion that it's escalation beyond the initial meta(which is meta and less worthwhile to begin with), without much reason.

Vote Docpotter

In the first paragraph, you attribute all of Doc's scumminess to coaching (which I've already explained why that doesn't make sense).

The second paragraph you go into why YOU DON'T WANT TO VOTE FOR SYKE. It has everything to do with meta (which the case I've put against him wasn't about meta, but you've ignored the multiple times I've tried to bring that up) which you don't believe in. You believe that a meta defense for Syke makes him not scum. How does him defending himself through meta clear him if you don't believe in meta?

Hell with clearing him, how would that be more pro-town than some coaching explanation (that you've never explained or pointed to in Doc's posting) if you really don't believe in meta? If you really don't believe in meta, all Syke has been doing with his defense is obfuscating his real role here by bringing up other games rather than defending his own beliefs and thoughts in this thread? Why isn't white-walling the town with pulled up defenses from other games scummier than "coaching"?

Oh, and don't forget that you thought he was playing similarly to another game; which does imply that you look at meta a bit and do take that into consideration.

But no, you defend Syke through his bringing up a meta defense and refuse to look at the non-meta aspects of a case against him.

I'm pretty damn sure I'm not misrepresenting any of that, so go ahead and just get lynched.

[Amished]

I've been debating this for a bit:

Syke's case was based on a lot of meta, but he seemed to fulfill that meta case to my thoughts that he was playing similarly to what he had done before, despite claims to the contrary.

It's my opinion that it's escalation beyond the initial meta(which is meta and less worthwhile to begin with), without much reason.

This is your 604. I separated it into sentences so you can see what I'm saying (well, moreso that everyone else can see that you're scum, but whatever).

You ignore the fact that closer to when I posted, none of the case against Syke was based on meta. Unfortunately, this is probably just laziness which pisses me off more than anything cause as town it's your duty to *try*. To try to find scum, try to show that you're not scum, stuff like that.

Moving on: "Syke seemed to fulfill that meta case to my thoughts he was playing similarly to what he had done before". Your opinion is that Syke's meta was close enough to what he had played before that the case of "playing against his meta" was bunk. Now look at the contradiction that you've posted already. You opine that his meta is that of what he had before. However, you don't believe in meta "(which is meta and less worthwhile to begin with)"; so this should not be a selling point for you. However, this is your sole stated reason for not voting for Syke and voting for Doc instead.

Furthermore,

Plus, Amished, wtf are you talking about? Why would he want to replicate said meta if the case on him was that he was playing -too- his meta and that he was scum in the other game? (sic)

Apparently you believe more in meta than you stated. You thought that he was playing to the meta that he brought up; and was scum in the game? I didn't even look at any of the meta case as it's all bullshit, tbqh; so I didn't realize his role in any game that he's played in before. This could be you misunderstanding me where I meant that if Syke was aware of his meta as it appears he is, he can play to whatever meta he would like to so that he can appear whatever he wants to be.

This last paragraph here is the weakest and most irrelevant part of my attack on you, so I suggest you spend your time brooding over your earlier mistake and hopefully the rest of the townspeople (that don't replace out or ignore me attacking their scumbuddy) will vote you in the meantime.

[Amished]

@Mod: Isn't RayFrost's vote supposed to be on Bogre (post 606)?

[Amished]

Stop beating around the damn bush Ani.

[Amished]

You're not exactly convincing anybody animorpherv. Either you got a case or you don't. If you do, you're wasting everyone's time by not saying it to evaluate both sides. If you don't you're just scum and we should vote you now.

[Amished]

Sorry about that, other games have been grabbing my attention. I've been half-assed following along and there hasn't been much to comment on that I saw that needed an immediate comment. I'll catch up now and post my thoughts.

[Amished]

Ok, quick notes-

Why the hell is Bogre being ignored? Seriously. There's been 1 person that said they sided with me; and one more that stated (basically) that they didn't want to take a stand.

On that note: LlamaFluff: what do you think of Bogre's explanation for his quote and my rebuttal of said stance?

I hate the fact that Richard is now on Parama. Rich was "scared" of parama and now he's voting him due to extremely weak reasons (one-sided meta of 2 games; "who's to say that he won't lead a mislynch on a townie???" in post 675). Richard should be lynched WAY before Parama if this is the quality of any of the people on parama's wagon.

Starbuck and Fishy are white (or pink) walling the thread and creating a useless side banter from the past. Create a case and cut down on the words, or drop it and focus on current events. Both of you.

Ok, parama's defense against richard is terribad as well; let's lynch the both of them and be done with it. Wonder if we could get a 3 lynch day if we asked really really nicely.

@Bogre: Why is DP acting more scummy to you? You claim to have read the non-meta part of his case; what did you think about that? In your "VOTE DP" post, you didn't say a damn thing about why DP is scummy.

At this point I still feel Bogre is the best option, richard is second and parama third. Syke is still there but the recent events have changed my views on the game a bit. DP is tenatively town due to the scumminess of the wagon on him. Seriously, can you guys voting for DP get any scummier?

I look forward to our replacements actually catching up so that we can move forward with everybody.

[Amished]

So, Riceballtail, what's your reads so far other than "parama is scum" as evidenced by your vote on him (without any reason) and your linking him to two other people (for reasons unknown as well).

[Amished]

@Llama: do you promise that this isn't some trick to try to pull a no-lynch? ... I can't believe you did that to me

Anyways:

Unvote
Vote: Parama

My vote on Bogre isn't doing jack all (if somebody wants to find/kill scum and doesn't have a better option.. *hint hint*) After an ISO I can see a parama lynch better than before. I see a fair amount of nervous newer scumtells from him so here we go. I haven't paid as much attention to DP/Syke lately; and with the town's momentum the way it is I think this is the best place to find scum and get a lynch out of it.

[Amished]

I have that effect when I replace into a game... Sorry =\

[Amished]

I have that effect when I replace into a game... Sorry =\

And I know it's not a trick, I definitely don't see a lot of parallels between the situations (mostly because there aren't any... >_>)

[Amished]

@parama: You mean your "defense" in 707; where you blatantly misrep what Richard was saying (seen you as scum; but that's irrelevant) as you highlight the word "meta" in richards post rather than reading for context. Cause Richard specifically stated that what he saw you he thought was a scumtell rather than something that would have something to do with meta. And "oh really" isn't that convincing either.

[Amished]

I'm not buying it. I'm getting better at differentiating between scum and cops especially (since it's such a popular fake claim) and I see way more scum behavior than cop behavior.

[Amished]

Actually I like RayFrost's version better.

[Amished]

I don't

[Amished]

This is a bastard mod game; I would not be surprised if there isn't even a Greek Mafia in the game.

[Amished]

Unvote
Vote Sykedoc

Whatever, just get a lynch done.

[Amished]

@Anon: Bastard mod game. 'nuff said.

@Maemuki: Yep, I'm a lazy bastard. I said it, you can agree with me (actually now that I think about it, I'm agreeing with you, cause that's the lazy thing to do). I'm fed up with today, people are buying a claim from somebody scummy as all hell that might or might not be a no flavor useless role in the game and I just want to move on with my life. I still believe Syke to be scummier than DP (the other "wagon" right now) so since SD's wagon is moving forward; I'll hop on. What can I say, it was moving slowly by and I figured riding is easier than walking.

Keep reading though, it only gets

better

worse from where you stopped. There's like 3 people that I can count on to not be erratic as all hell and I want to see somebody get strung up.

[Amished]

So what happens when there's an Armenian and a Brazilian mafia; but no Greek? He's not necessary to kill for either of them. Perhaps he's insane/paranoid as well; there's no reason to believe a damn word he says with how scummy he has been.

Of course, this is all assuming he's telling the truth (and with his claim; I'm doubting that). I dream, oh how I dream, of having a day-vig. Or 10.

[Amished]

Whatever, I really don't care anymore.

Unvote
Vote: RiceBallTail

[Amished]

EBWOP: /agrees with Rifka

(Oh, and +3 points for the "You play to win the game" comment )

[Amished]

/cry

[Amished]

CSL, it's obvious you're not the only scum. You can just be second

[Amished]

Im going to wait for the mod to post before I try and figure out exactly whats going on here.

[Amished]

Darn weekends, I'll try to catch up ASAP.

[Amished]

Vote: Deathnote

Parama's lack of dying isn't surprising cause if he's town, the mafia can be semi-cleared until a second group comes to light by his investigation if there isn't a greek mafia.

Ani's lack of death is surprising, for reasons that I don't want to go into right now other than he can kill at will.

Fishy's doublekill means to me that he was onto something, but he talked a lot and who knows what he was right about. Something to keep in mind for later if we can narrow down who he was suspicious of after some flips of pro-town suspects I think

Deathnote is obv. Maybe today will help balance out the stupid length of yesterday.

Vote: Deathnote

[Amished]

lol, wow. Stop posting while distracted/tired, I don't have two votes, he's just scum when I started and didn't change through the post >_>

[Amished]

Quite possibly.

[Amished]

Did he just claim at L-4?

Your right, I should have waited till it went all the way to L-1 and wasted our time. [/sarcasm]

At this point, you either believe the claim or you don't. Since you didn't take your vote off, I am guessing you don't.

Actually, claiming early is a huge scumtell. Monkeyman in NY91, Benmage in NY104, and a couple others that slip my mind right now were all scum and claimed weaker power roles while not that close to a lynch.

Town knows that they're innocent and can work towards proving it with their actions as they have a pro-town motive behind everything. Scum know they're guilty so then the only way for them to even possibly be "saved" from a lynch is to claim something (potentially) useful to the town.

I wish I did have that double vote now.

Ani, please shoot this scumbag.

[Amished]

Unvote

What the hell.

ITP I'm confused and waiting for Ivy to clear her situation up.

[Amished]

Oooo, crossposted.

Well, DN was scummy as all shit; but to claim backup to a real role? I don't think that there'd be three mafia in the game (greekcop, russiancop, americanmaf-dead). With how scummy DN was, I still think he's scum. He's just Russian, hoping for there to be an actual Russian cop out there. At least that seems the most likely.

Since I've never seen a backup even get the investigations of the original; I think that part is bogus as well.

Vote: DeathNote

Not believing it.

[Amished]

@mae: No, it's not normal to have 3 scumgroups. Though this is advertised as a bastard mod game, so take "normal" as whatever you like.

2 and an SK is so-so; but the more scum in the game the harder it is to balance. 3 requires too much crosskilling (in my "as a mod" viewpoint) to really be able to rely on that as a balance mechanism. Unfortunately, nobody said it had to be perfectly balanced or there's easily something out there that I don't know that makes it balanced.

[Amished]

Essentially: It's normal to feel stupid after making such a big mistake.

Not sure why Parama was shot over DN though >_>

[Amished]

@SpyreX: Give me a break. I weighed how scummy Parama was compared to how I expected a cop to play and they didn't line up. *barf* back on you.

[Amished]

*chuckle*

I like "oh, I assume scum would do this in this many numbers" theory posts; cause you absolutely can't predict some natures. Also doesn't take into account any context, and one data point is great for predicting a pattern

Glad the leader of the alliance is pro.

Also, if DN is lying, he's vanilla? What? Now that Parama spilled the beans about claiming vanilla (as scum) to avoid Ani; what sense would a PR claim by a vanilla make? If ani doesn't believe the PR claim, it's a good time to shoot and then you're destroying another pro-town role (unless you don't believe ani, which I don't believe that DN had really said one way or another.) You make no sense.

[Amished]

So, what's your reasoning for voting for FFFF? (more pointed at SpyreX as I have a decent read of RayFrost atm)

[Amished]

I'm curious as to how you got your FFFF read and where "If DN is lying, he's vanilla" came from.

Also, if "more scum being on fat wagons like that" is what you believe, how does "With multiple scumgroups I'd bank fat and hard on there being at least 3 scum on it. " work out? Wouldn't more than 3 scum be on there?

How about the fact that the americans (our only revealed scumgroup) have *nothing to fear* from a anti-greek cop? It's even beneficial for them to keep an anti-greek cop alive. Wouldn't that be an even better place to start since we can also look for ties to SSK? You as an experienced member of ms should know that a scum dead is worth at least two townies dead (more often three) due to connections. But tell me; what motivation would an American mafia have on lynching an anti-GREEK cop?

[Amished]

... vanilla mafia?

Vanilla != Mafia goon

I'm pretty sure Ani only loses his power if the target is Vanilla Townie (a la Anon).

[Amished]

Doesn't seem so off-point now, does it?

[Amished]

Though, (regarding 1376): didn't you {SpyreX} have a town read on DN?

[Amished]

Ah, I guess I'm still thinking that you saying vanilla (for DN) means VT. I still don't understand how "vanilla" = "mafia goon" but there you have it.

[Amished]

Or you could say a "mafia goon" to make sure we knew alignment outside of saying vanilla. Either way, the misunderstanding is cleared up now.

What makes your stance on DN claiming backup cop (that gets full investigation results) that much better than doubting Parama's cop claim in your eyes? They're both basically cops, and both would have to be killed on the same night to lose everything completely. Coordination between scumgroups doesn't happen like that.

[Amished]

(They both (Parama and DN) basically cops and both (PIvy and DN) would have to be killed on the same night...)

[Amished]

Ray you haxxor. Check your other boards btw.

[Amished]

Parama flipping Greek cop doesn't mean Greek mafia though does it?

Bingo

[Amished]

Sounds like you need your scumdar adjusted.

[Amished]

@SpyreX: Just part of it.

The beeps and the sweeps seem to be fine, but the boops are a bit off. (Spaceballs reference)

[Amished]

Lynch the lynchee today?

[Amished]

OH WAIT! Claimed Lyncher, we still have a dayvig..

@Ray: A lot of people (including your unbreakable leader) wanted DN dead...

[Amished]

OH WAIT! Claimed Lyncher, we still have a dayvig..

@Ray: A lot of people (including your unbreakable leader) wanted DN dead...

FFFF was the one wanted dead, not DN, at this time.

DN was never believed by Spyrex. Citation:

I still want DN to take a bullet.

In a perfect world I'd machine gun down dramonic and pom and probably Amished as well depending on how it went.

FFFF's jumping out at me is tech and all, but a rope suffices.

[Amished]

Pom can be shot if we want her dead. FFFF would eat ani's daykill.

Wait, what? If FFFF is scum; it wouldn't eat ani's daykill.

[Amished]

Oh, right, the PR thing.

[Amished]

FFFF isn't bulletproof; but if animorpherv1 shoots a vanilla townie *or* somebody with a post restriction (like FFFF) then Ani can't daykill anymore. So FFFF is bulletproof in the sense that you can't shoot him/her and keep doing so.

[Amished]

Unvote
Vote: FeFiFoFum

If for nothing but the fact that he's only bitching about a confirmed town (in my eyes SpyreX is 100% town) and trying to discredit Spyre in any way, shape or form.

[Amished]

If you use that babelfish addon, if you click on the "google" bit, the yahoo translator seems to be a little more legible for FFFF; not that it will really matter anymore.

[Amished]

Haha, that's awesome. UK is now known third party, she has no reason to help us. Why would we want to keep her around? I vote for shooting UK ASAP. Perhaps in the same post as Pom, I really don't care.

[Amished]

@SpyreX (and to a lesser extent UK): O RLY? You're gonna trust somebody that doesn't even come close to sharing a win condition with us? And we know about it? And we have a way to knock it out of the game without letting them win?

Tell me why you would want to lynch UK? Do you want to play for second place? It's like having an outed scum alive. You can't trust anything they say anyways cause they have no reason to be truthful. What possible motivation would UK have to help us? We know she's a Jester, we don't want to play for "second place" (I don't understand how people can play for second place and not care).

[Amished]

@UK: You think my only reason for getting you shot is cause you tend to stay alive? 1) Of course you're gonna stay alive. No one-choice-per-night faction will waste themselves on you since you're not scum (for pro-town shooters) and you really don't have any incentive to help town (for pro-scum shooters).

I want you gone so that you'll cease to be a distraction for the town since you really have no incentive to help. If you think that people would be stupid enough to lynch a Jester, whatever the conditions, you go right ahead and think that. We have no reason to help you, and as such you really have no motivation to help us because of it.

Saying that "we'll lynch you after we kill a couple mafia" is about a big a lie as me claiming scum. You can't be sure until something happens, but neither way will work for you. You don't have a post restriction, you're not vanilla, you're third party. We have (essentially) an unlimited vig to deal with people like jesters and survivors; and since you haven't bothered to lie about a clause in your PM about something to the effect that Ani will lose his powers if he shoots you means that there isn't anything like that in your PM and you haven't thought about it.

I really don't see a downside to shooting you. If we only shoot Pom, we'll have 14 alive and we'll still need 8 to lynch. If we shoot both of you, we'll be down to 13 and we can pretend you'd be the 8th person on a seven person lynch if it'll make you feel better.

[Amished]

@UK: I've been trying to switch things up; but it's more due to the nature of the game rather than my conscious decision to mess with any meta that anybody may have of me (which I'm kinda doubtful that they can, but that's probably just arrogance and not the fact that the person who's played with me the most can't get an accurate read on me most of the time). Large games I tend to have people get lost in the shuffle, and bastard games probably make me edgier than I should be.

For your links:

Case on DeathNote. He looked scummy. Him claiming a cop with other parts of his claim not matching up with my expectations (getting all night results from previous incarnation) seems horribly overpowered. Now that we have a Greek and American mafia group; I believe it's more than likely that there was no Russian and that DN/PIvy's role was just an extended form of a vanilla townie that could be daykilled. Two mafias are hard enough to deal with, but to balance three (and there's nothing that I've seen town-wise that would suggest that we have the power to deal with three mafia groups) is a bit outrageous.

Questioning Spyre on the vote for FFFF (accusation of defending): I agreed with RayFrost cause I believe him to be town. Spyre at the time was still iffy in my mind and from memory I didn't really see all that much of a reason from him so that post was more feeling Spyre out than having anything to do with FFFF; I would've probably said the same thing if the votee was anybody else.

Vote on FFFF: It's something that I notice comes from scum a lot more than from town. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a tell like that from town. Town will see how it's logical to just deal with it and go about your own business; while scum will be afraid of it and continue to push against something pro-town because they fear it's effectiveness and being whittled down. With the only proven scum on Spyre's alliance flipping opposite of FFFF, I think it's safe to say that there aren't greeks on the alliance due to the fact that FFFF was so scared of it. If there were greeks there, it'd be easy enough to see that there's a chance that you'll win by them staying alive since it's a rather big group for any other killing factions to target and whittle down. However, if you thought that a buddy was playing well and then not get selected, I feel it would trigger a panicked response from a Greek; FFFF being the biggest perpetrator of that.

However, before you decide to shoot me or anything, I'll claim that I'm vanilla. So you'll either have to make the alliance blindly follow you to my lynch or finish off Ani's ability to daykill.

Finally: If you're targeting me with your scumhunting radar, I doubt that the scum really has anything to worry about cause you iso'd me and apparently it wasn't as bad as you thought yet you're still pushing.

[Amished]

Yeah, and I'm trying to settle into not being as transparent as town cause I'm getting sick of only living a day or two tops.

I'd have to go look, but ... I can't remember who it was anymore.. could be Yos.. but anyways, there was a lot of differences in how I read the game compared to other people. As vanilla, this unfortunately has the effect of putting pressure on power roles as well as scum (since I haven't been able to hone myself to tell the difference as much yet); while as scum the people I agree with are power roles due to being more careful and stuff like that. An example of the latter (being scum and agreeing with a PR is here. I agreed a lot with chauchaudotcom who was the cop in the game.

ISO 15 I accused DN of active lurking (hmm, I should read through my own ISO more.. Beyond that I don't see a lot from me about him, but I don't mention a lot of people due to the size of the game. Activity and posts peak my curiosity/scumhunting/vote a lot more than inactivity.

At least I attacked Bogre who turned out to inherit a third party role and did attack Pom early on for now that I think about it rather valid reasons. I gave .. sotty7 a similar pass in Open 175 when I was questioning her about something and ignored it.

Vote: Pomegranate

[Amished]

Cause when I'm vanilla town I get off'd right away for being so transparent. If people see that I'm not that transparent, I'm not vanilla so either I'm a prime target for a PR NK or scum. In no way does being transparent help other than if I ever get a miller role.

My last post is my explanation for how I scumhunt. There's a lot of people that might not share a viewpoint with me (DN was one, because now I know he was a PR). Posting a lot brings you to my attention (for obvious reasons) while people who lurk similarly don't come across my reads as much. DN active lurking (from my perspective) helped him fly under my radar a bit cause I tend to filter out fluff posts as I can't keep everything straight as it is sometimes.

@Spyre: Do you have a point with what you're trying to say about my reactions to you? You replace in 40 pages after the start and you expect me to really have a lot to say to you on day one? Or what?

For the claim: The only person that ani will listen to anymore is you. Since I don't believe ani is scum, I want his pro-town killing role to keep working for the town. Since I know that I can be shot at any time, I'm going to claim my role so that he can continue on shooting teh scumz rather than ending his vig ability by using it on me.

[Amished]

The thing I don't understand is why would there be a backup for a scum fake-claim? Particularly since Ivy claimed first (if I remember right).

[Amished]

@UK: Do you trust Ani as far as you can throw him?

[Amished]

Well: DeathNote, who was a backup anti-Russian Mafia cop, has been shot on Day 2.

Unless there's another anti-russian mafia cop out there.....

[Amished]

Nice try Ray.

Anyways, I'm gonna be off for the night, I'll be back tomorrow to check in on anything important.

For Ani, I got the impression that since he followed Kai who was part of the alliance he'd just shoot me since both you and Spyre (the leader) wanted me shot.

And I think we're not fake-voting cause that's a lot of work >_>

[Amished]

@Spyre: Welp, you have been wrong.

[Amished]

@UK: With the alliance in effect I won't survive that long anyways so if you need to get rid of me just lynch me. I'm telling you if you shoot me you'll end ani's ability to kill. If you want to nerf Ani, knock yourselves out, but is it really that big of a sacrifice to lynch me and kill whoever else you want dead?

[Amished]

omfg. Calling for my own lynch is a self preservation tactic? OKAY

[Amished]

Spyre: If/when I get shot, if the town loses I'm blaming it all on you. Just so you know.

[Amished]

I said what I did (and didn't bring up any snipe about what I believe your allegiance to be) because of the reasonless following of you against me. I understand having a blind spot for people saying the same thing as you; however I'm seeing a current of anti-Amished hate for very little reasoning.

Actually, the best reasons I've seen came from a drunkard and that wasn't all that convincing.

[Amished]

People are following you (probably should've phrased that differently). Rifka's trying to figure me out is about the only statement that I've seen that hasn't been all out against me (even though apparently I'm gut-scum for her anyways).

There's not a single person that's said that they doubt me as a scum read; and that's not normal at all. All the undercurrent here; and no real significant case against me like people don't want to be the first for me to poke holes in something that they've said or I could explain myself.

You've been tunneled on me all game; starting with not believing Parama (though I don't see how you can view this as all that different as you not believing DN and getting him shot)

Going to your ISO 33; FFFF has flipped scum, Dram has flipped scum (and is one of the three that you guarantee) and then there's only 1 more on the wagon that you predicted.

OH LOOK, that's everything you've basically ever said to me that would paint me as scum. Not even your case is convincing and people follow it cause you keep bringing my name up.

It's not discrediting you if I'm right about my status as town; and you're wrong about it.

Put up or shut up about me.

[Amished]

I also like how Rifka attributed 2 scum deaths to Spyre; when obviously they were the result of different night actions (referring to MME and Kai).

[Amished]

Thanks Ray, you'll always be close to my heart (unless you're scum)

Also, to touch on another note that Rifka brought up: most town player. Obviously I've gone over (one of my) reasons for not being OMG LUK I'M TOWN GUYZ, while not fully disclosing other game effects that caused me to play the way that I have.

Early on Llama was all over everything, helping the town and I trust his ability at finding scum as well. Spyre came in and did largely the same thing. I see this, and I pick up a new way of playing, namely not distracting the town by being another leader and splitting attention. I did this late in D1 when arguing with Llama (before Spyre) and all I saw was chaos. Towns are often destroyed by trying to go in too many places at once and I didn't want that. I took a backseat and did more of a devil's advocate type of thing to test reasons and relationships that didn't take the primary position of power. Obviously there's people I trust, and me getting information out for them to deal with as well I feel has helped.

Clearly that's not something that I can measure; or really point to (omg you stole this bit of information that I got for your case!) but I think that's part of the reasons why I'm getting this undertone of anti-amish sentiment.

[Amished]

Jahudo, I realize you probably can't see straight anymore for how long you've been drunk; but you tell me how my apathy towards the game (starting 5-10 iso posts before the CSL comment) isn't consistent with my view towards any wagon at the time. There were very few people that I wouldn't lynch then; and since RBT was closer to a lynch I wasn't going to stop my frustration with derailing any feasible lynch that came along.

[Amished]

EBWOP:

@Ivy: He's got the game wrapped around his finger and pretty much everyone does what he says. If he finds a way to allow the scum to win, his leading us away from the scum will be the primary reason for a town loss. If he wins it, go Spyre.

[Amished]

Who's all left in the alliance? I'm not gonna waste my time making a case on somebody not lynchable.

[Amished]

You got it. Give me like an hour, tops.

[Amished]

Ok, so I didn't want to deal with the PR people yet; as translations aren't as good to hunt for scum the way I normally do.

From the rest of the players I looked over Sykedoc, Starbuck and Rifka as I feel that they didn't stand out as much and I haven't gotten a decent read on any of them.

Rifka's play that I read didn't bother me as everything that she's said I definitely could see coming from town.

Starbuck's play read town as well. Consistent, firm in her beliefs, and actively scumhunting as well as calling out lurkers.

That brought me back to syke; and I don't see how he was allowed to live.

Early on he talked about how he thinks that one of the post-restricted people are scum. At first I thought he was just on crack or whatever, but after having FFFF/MafiaSSK hit scum, it's definitely a phrase that looked like inside information. A way to cast a blanket suspicion and point to it later if anybody with a PR was starting to get rung up in votes. After all, scum want anybody lynched; and if they can look like they were suspicious of them early on they can get some town points for it. He even goes so far as to single out the Portugese and French restrictions as fake. Along those lines, I'm curious as to when SSK got turned into a PRestricted player, but that's neither here nor there.

Then go for 11 posts (2-13) where he refuses to give any read at all; and when he does (in 14) he comes with a bunch of half tells that say absolutely nothing about alignment for the most part; and fails to follow up on his suspicion of the P/F language PR's (actually goes to call SSK townish)

Goes on to explain why he'll be extra bandwagon-y cause he believes other people more than himself (good excuse... almost)

His entire early game is filled with not scumhunting (and defending that position) and threatening people that he's a power role.

Also deliberately tries to subvert his meta, for no real game-reasons that I can see other than not wanting to be meta'd.

What confuses me is that I see a lot of connections with Kairyuu as well. Kai's vote on Syke is extremely weak (solely for meta reasons) and it's early on. It's very easy for scum to see scummy actions in their partners and buss them for it; and Syke insta-OMGUS's Kai back. This is probably the biggest scum-scum connection that I ever see/look for. (White Castle and I had an extremely similar situation in New York 92)

After voting for Kairyuu; he doesn't even push his viewpoint. He calls Kai scum later on; but in a way that suggests to me that he's a partner with Kai.

Also: It would seem this wagon is of interest to me.
Death Note, Kairyuu, Anon.

I do not consider LF as wagoning since he voted for me based on another purpose entirely and thus doesn't stand as part of this.

Take a look at a previous vote count:
Parama (3): Kairyuu, Sanhora, Anon
^Two of those three^

See that? Thats about the same correlation you're making.

It goes so far as to call Kai scum, but leaves an out (only 2 of the three, could've been Anon/Sanhora). However, 66% chance would dictate that he should press against Kairyuu more than some other random wagon.

Ugh, this is getting sickening, all he can ever defend himself with is meta which is a BS defense anyways.

OOOOooo, spiffy; unvote of Kai and vote for Anon for basically having the same viewpoint. (ISO 40). Knowing each of their flips, do you really wonder why Syke wouldn't want his vote on Kairyuu and on Anon instead?

I also don't like his position against Llama. He's called Llama white-knighting; and that it could be a scum tactic, but not always is. Shit like this just irks the hell outta me. Also, he didn't say the same thing about Spyre with the unbreakable alliance. Care to take a guess why? It's cause he wasn't going to be under pressure. Heck, apparently Syke was about to vote for Llama (ISO 53) but didn't feel like it cause Llama made a good point (read: scared to get into a confrontation with LF)

Oooo, another good quote:

On SaintKerrigan
The guy is way too quiet for me. He has 5 total posts in the game.

The first is joke voting RayFrost.

The second is QFTing a question asked by wolf.

The third is telling us he's having a hard time getting his head around the game and that he doesn't have a post restriction. He also answers a question about PRs and posts an opinion on sykedoc:

I don't think it's odd that Sykedoc doesn't have much on people yet. It's early in Day 1 for a large game, and personally I don't have that much in the way of reads yet myself. Maybe other people are getting reads out of this, but I don't find it odd that some people haven't found much of anything yet.

It almost feels like buddying.


I smell active lurking.

Who did SK get replaced by? CSL? The American mafiate? Who else did I find connections with? Kairyuu? He was.. American too, wasn't he? SK didn't get a FoS or anything out of that, but Starbuck did. (It was cause Starbuck was attacking Syke).

He {syke} attacks basically everyone that did attack him all game.

ISO 80 he hops onto DocPotter, the biggest wagon of the time.

Yup, attacks Rifka for voting for him (ISO 97)

Defends Kai's absence (ISO 108)

Syke votes for Parama while attacking Doc (121) Get's questioned/attacked about it, flips back to DocPotter in 127.

Has a problem with Anon in the Alliance even though he gives Anon credit for posting a case against Syke (so did Kairyuu) (ISO 139-140)

142 says that it's unlikely to get a CSL lynch, but votes for him in 145 anyways.

And he hasn't said shit since Day 1.

Exactly an hour! Perfect!

[Amished]

Finally, I thought that my vote actually being *on* Pom was signaling that I think she should die.

[Amished]

3-3-1-2-X seems the most balanced and I was right initially about there might not be a russian mafia. I think the most damning of this is the fact that there were two russian cops and only one for only greek (and none for American).

Due to that, it would make sense that *if* the scumgroups aren't balanced, Americans are smaller due to no specific anti-group hate.

I looked through both Rifka and Starbuck when I was making my case; and I didn't really see all that much scummy from either of them. I didn't look through DD; but my sole other experience with him is replacing him as scum after he claimed scum roleblocker (he was a goon instead) ...

[Amished]

What EXACTLY was your rolename again Mae?

Moleira com uma restrição de post. Porque perguntas?

Miller with a restriction of post. Because questions?

[Amished]

I can't believe I'm doing this...

Vote: UncertainKitten

It's only cause I was taught to be nice to (pretty) women.

Also, Happy Scumday, syke.

[Amished]

For me it's the glasses. If you're stylish, you have your own appeal.

PPD is kinda skewed when you have posts like that in a day, isn't it?

[Amished]

Best Jester? We knew her role and we still lynched her?

[Amished]

Psh. No one wants that. The blood would have flown today MUCH HARDER than it did.

I mean hell, Amished is still alive.

Damn right I'm still alive.

[Amished]

I'm so confused.

Balanced Post Restrictions seems logical (which scares me in a bastard mod game).

[Amished]

You lost the game? Confession? Did you just want Llama to die and now you're giving up?

[Amished]

@Mod: V/LA until Monday the 22nd

For thoughts: I really don't see how it would make sense for scum to claim a non-power role as vanillas aren't less likely to be lynched. They don't actually have to be a power role to claim to be one. Syke is still at the top of my scum list. I dunno, after 95 pages my brain is mush and I haven't really looked at much of anything. A VC would probably help but don't have the time or energy right now.

[Amished]

I love winning when I don't really have to do anything. Like I said, with powerful town personalities (and especially in large games) I really drift to the background. I had a strong town read on Llama, Ray and SpyreX (after suggesting the unbreakable, even if it did cross my mind that you might be scum for other things, I remembered that you started the alliance and you were cleared in my mind because of that).

So I figured as long as they were alive I could just kinda do whatever.