R-SURVIVAL -- Game Over

[ortolan]

if it's an open game then how many scum are there? 4? Also I guess there are no PRs?

[ortolan]

Frankly I don't even see the pro-town point of the safezone

[ortolan]

someone care to explain to me what they see the pro-town benefit of the safezone as being?

[ortolan]

w/ever

GAT: nachomamma8

[ortolan]

@bird, thanks for the quick answer.

I see we are random picking nacho as gatekeeper. What happens if we pick a scum gatekeeper?

I will vig them when I realise they are scum, it's all good.

[ortolan]

I will ask again: can anyone give me a good argument for why the GAT should be using his abilities at all? I still don't see it.

[ortolan]

I will ask again: can anyone give me a good argument for why the GAT should be using his abilities at all? I still don't see it.

Only think I can think of, probably shitty idea, but whatevs:

Near end of the day, GAT brings in most pro-town player and two scummiest, so scum can't NK most pro-town player without hitting their possible buddies.

scum can't get killed in the safezone

[ortolan]

ABR, how do we dayvig? bold in-thread or PM, or both?

[ortolan]

Nacho, do you see any pro-town benefit in using your ability?

[ortolan]

Nacho, do you see any pro-town benefit in using your ability?

Well, we can protect our most pro-town players by putting them in the safezone along with a couple not-so-protown players. That way (if scum decide to shoot inside the safezone), we'll save our most protown player and make scum NK someone we might be suspicious of.

that benefit sounds completely negligible compared to the risk of finding a scummy player "really really pro-town" to begin with, coupled with the WIFOM of not knowing whether the people who died died because they were randomly selected, or because they are the only (or one of the few) townies in there.

[ortolan]

good-o

[ortolan]

=====[]

[ortolan]

perhaps you could come up with some reads instead of pretending there's some need for the RVS

[ortolan]

I suspect if there are town power-roles, they may need to be outside the safe zone in order to function. Otherwise game would be breakable by putting the PRs in with a bunch of other people.

[ortolan]

If Gatekeeper puts someone into the safezone without telling us, gatekeeper is scum.

I suspect if there are town power-roles, they may need to be outside the safe zone in order to function. Otherwise game would be breakable by putting the PRs in with a bunch of other people.

This seems likely.

On another tangent why do you feel there is no pro town reason to go in the safe zone ort?

I already explained my reasoning. What do you think is the pro-town reason

for

using the safe zone?

[ortolan]

in what circumstances do you see it being protown, and in what circumstances do you see it being proscum?

[ortolan]

ABR: are people advised when they are moved into the safezone?

[ortolan]

ABR: are people advised when they are moved into the safezone?

Nope. They will know when they are shot and they survive, and from then on they can either stay or leave. Call me Mod or Albert.

Sorry Albert

I already explained my reasoning. What do you think is the pro-town reason

for

using the safe zone?

I have explained several pro-town reasons for using the safe zone, none of which you have shot down, have you just completely ignored or missed these posts intentionally?

I'm evaluating your arguments. So far they don't look good to me. The "put everyone in the safezone" plan looks alright (say, if you had one vig go through then moved everyone in before lynching) until you realise that the GAT can only move 3 people per day. The problem of course, lies in the potential for moving mafia into the safezone because they "look so protown".

I'm also surprised no-one is taking ABR's meta into account. He made a point of saying "no cowardly PMs". Why wouldn't he design the setup to hurt the town if they try to use the "cowardly" safezone. From what we know town players are verifiable by using their vig ability- unless there are scum exceptions to the sample PM (which is obviously a possibility) the scum can't take out town targets during the day anyway. If we let the scum nightkill as normal then we find out exactly who they wanted to get rid of, and exactly what their alignment was. As opposed to injecting massive, massive amounts of WIFOM into the game by using the safezone.

[ortolan]

Albert: can the GAT move people into the safezone publicly if they so choose?

I think yabbaguy is highly likely to be scum personally.

[ortolan]

yabbaguy, you badly need to explain why you knew this was a closed setup when everyone else (seemingly validly) got the impression otherwise.

[ortolan]

I have an answer ready, but before I respond, is that the entirety of your scumread on me?

tbh, I'm not sure. go ahead, what's your answer?

[ortolan]

perhaps we should take a poll: who else thought it was open/closed?

[ortolan]

Really though, is it worth arguing or discussing? The thread said open fine. The mod says it is closed. I feel like telling the mod he is wrong accomplishes nothing?

do you seriously not understand the intent behind the poll? answer the question please. u2 cobalt.

[ortolan]

sorry cobalt, you already did. Go ahead DoS.

[ortolan]

I am trying to work out if yabbaguy is scummy for knowing the setup was semi-open, rather than open. I did think that was rather clear. Now co-operate with this pro-town endeavour.

[ortolan]

why don't we wagon someone then. who should we wagon, yabbaguy? you seem to know what you're doing.

[ortolan]

overreaction++ Do you think it is scummy to ask for a poll or simply a bad idea? "What the hell are you thinking" implies I am town who should know better, rather than scum, so please explain why you're voting me.

[ortolan]

so do you don't want to answer my poll? fine?

let's take another poll

how many of you think my poll was deliberate rolefishing?

[ortolan]

hey you do realise that power roles can simply lie? hey, who'da thunk it

plus my whole rationale for originally suspecting yabba is that I would think town power roles would be more careful to hide their power without dropping statements about semi-openness, whereas scum power roles would get one and implicitly think "ok well the game is non-vanilla".

[ortolan]

Cobalt's pretext for suspecting Parama looks dodgy but I'd be far more inclined to attack chamber than Cobalt (plus you do realise two daykills ends the day charter? we could have just discussed then lynched him or someone else. now I think you're scummy too)

[ortolan]

yabbaguy, semioldguy, who should we gang up on? I've been waiting for a guide to come and take me by the hand.

[ortolan]

Why those 2?

I'm interested in their opinions

[ortolan]

are you actually town? I hope not

[ortolan]

don't #$#@$@# shoot me pl0x

let's have a bit more discussion. Then I will vig someone. I reread the game but I'm still not sure who I should be fragging. I want to hear semioldguy, and yabbaguy, and Ellibereth on the subject. Then I will kill someone.

[ortolan]

charter how were you able to read Cobalt?

[ortolan]

Ortolan, if you're vigging anyone you should vig yourself. You've been completely useless this entire game. So has dramonic.

well according to your logic everyone but yourself has been useless...congrats on vigging scum though. I agree that Ellibereth was the player I am most inclined to vig.

[ortolan]

how is that an overreaction? I am referring to other people in case they take you up on your horrible suggestion (as you took up Cobalt's horrible suggestion to begin with)

[ortolan]

oh yer, I wouldn't particularly mind killing him either

[ortolan]

(nacho)

[ortolan]

mostly lack of scummy stuff elsewhere

[ortolan]

I just looked at the lurkers. They need to post more (dram and malpa), or get replaced. I saw something that made me think Bogre town, I think Hacker might be town (although Dragons and Hacker I find quite difficult to read)- Dragons is naught but a null-tell, could be scum. The fact that I haven't seen anything explicitly scummy in most of the active players makes me turn to the lurkers.

So yer DoS badly needs to stop null-telling.

[ortolan]

and which people are you thinking about vigging?

[ortolan]

didn't you tell me to tighten up my game? you've given precious little in the way of reasons beyond berating me (pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft) and accusing me of "rolefishing" when I wasn't.

[ortolan]

also, why do you assume I'm the scum instead of any of the countless lurkers semioldguy?

[ortolan]

your play reeks of policy discussion and pithy aphorisms and generalities when you should be addressing the events in this game. you're meant to be discriminating between the scum, of which there are a finite number, and the town, of which there are a finite but larger number. You're meant to be trying to isolate exactly who is most likely to be scum, and who is likely to be scum given certain contingencies. Either I am scum or I am not. Either the lurkers are scum or they are not. You should always be trying to find the most likely to be scum, not arbitrarily dividing the game into different phases e.g. "I don't think it's appropriate for a lurker hunt now". If they are scum then they will be scum at all phases of the game. They aren't suddenly more likely to be scum just because it's day 3.

It is much easier to distinguish amongst the already active posters this early in the game.

that is a sub-optimal approach. You are artificially confining your reads to a certain sub-group. You must think I am pretty damn likely to be scum to be voting me. Would it help if I told you I am fantastic at playing scum, never blatantly rolefish, and have never been caught for something so menial as what you describe? It would be nice if you put in the effort to do some meta research if you're so confident I am scum out of the currently active players.

[ortolan]

I don't feel the vote is unwarranted. You have a lot of posts, yet the majority of your posts are not helpful or productive.

You are right though, it is an overreaction. I am more than a little frustrated from the other games I was/am playing in. One of which is Mini 859, which is no longer ongoing. I had just come back to see that I had been lynched as town in lylo within less than 24 hours of the day having been opened and before I was even able to make a post.

I've been wondering about this for a while. I don't see how the second paragraph explains the first. Would you please explain?

[ortolan]

also wondering about 294

[ortolan]

well the ideas are contradictory- you seem to be reinforcing your suspicion of me then saying you think you are "overreacting", based on another game. I also don't understand the relevance of what happened in that previous game to this situation- you being quicklynched in LYOL didn't seem to bear any similarity to the game state at the time.

[ortolan]

I'm also wondering if you'd kindly answer the following, semi: what do you think are your personal scumtells?

[ortolan]

I don't have a strong case on nacho. I am reassured of my town read on Hacker. I'm still wondering what your personal scumtells are semi.

[ortolan]

that's interesting...you didn't seem to have any qualms with not using your ability at all yesterday

I just don't want to use 2/3 of my safe zone moves for the day just yet.

do you foresee yourself having better targets in the future?

[ortolan]

well charter, when I asked you how you knew Cobalt was scum you kind of arrogantly brushed off answering - I would still like to know

[ortolan]

Ellibereth could we have some more detail on your bad gut read on Nacho please

charter I would still like to know what your "educated guess" on Cobalt was based upon.

[ortolan]

I think you guys are missing the obvious choice of Bogre. I did a few iso reads...yesterday, I think it was, and he stuck out, especially his exchange with Cobalt as he was going down.

[ortolan]

DoS also shouldn't be allowed to lurk after "misusing" his vig

[ortolan]

charter is certainly town, chamber is pretty much certainly town also

If Anon is scum then semioldguy isn't

Bogre could still be scum.
Anon could still be scum.
semioldguy might in fact be scum

looking at yabbaguy in iso, apart from semioldguy whose scum status is still unclear (slightly leaning town), he's done nothing but attack townies all game.

DOS, SEMI and BOGRE: would any of you have a problem with me shooting yabbaguy?

[ortolan]

One thing that's stopping me from shooting is the possibility that I or ortolan is in the safezone.

Interesting that you bring this up. What makes you think off-hand that scum-nacho have put town-yabbaguy in the safezone?

Apparently I have to know that I'm in before I can come out

Where did you get this information?

[ortolan]

@orto: Bogre and semi are possible scum according to you... yet you're asking them for advice on whether or not you'd shoot me? Explain that. Also why DoS? Why nobody else?

I'm asking the scummy players how they'd react to me fragging another scummy player.

Albert: what are the circumstances under which one would "know" one is in the safezone (so that one could leave it)?

Does an unsuccessful dayvig (either because the dayvigger or the target were in the safezone) end the day?

I would remind you that I was very much skeptical of Nacho's insistence on the use of his ability all along.

[ortolan]

Albert: let me rephrase my second mod question. I meant "Does an unsuccessful dayvig (either because the dayvigger or the target were in the safezone) count as one of the two dayvigs required to end the day?"

[ortolan]

dayvig yabbaguy

[ortolan]

semi, Anon IIRC

don't shoot me, bad scumdar is a town-tell 4 moi

[ortolan]

dragons already shot, at dram IIRC

[ortolan]

I agree SOG is scummy, I'm just rereading now.

Notice how in all his posts he talks about the possibility for some scum to have a daykill rather than the possibility for some town to not have a daykill (which would be an effective way to breadcrumb). I do think he was probably setting himself up for a power role fakeclaim from the beginning of the game, knowing he didn't have a shot from the beginning. But if his role were actually what he said, surely he would have breadcrumbed it somehow in his *extensive* setup speculation.

I disagree (about giving mafia a day kill being broken), and several "bad idea" style games have a mafia with day killing power. In fact, not giving mafia any day kill would be completely broken. In this game, because there can be two kills during each day, if there are not any day shooting scum, then the setup is broken and the scum cannot win. For example, two people shoot each day and everyone who has made a shot gets confirmed innocent. Scum would not have enough kills to ever keep the confirmed players down in number and the uninformed majority would soon become the informed majority.

I would argue that there wouldn't be more than one day-shooting scum though, as two scum with a day kill would mean that with 9 players, a 7 on 2 scenario could be lylo.

I think semi should shoot Anon, then we lynch someone.

I think we should just lynch semi.

I also have a good reason I think DoS is town which I don't want to say presently. I do know he lurks a lot as scum though but I'd probably guess town this game. So I'd say lynch DoS, if game continues kill Anon.

[ortolan]

I don't understand why you made that long "how many scum can shoot" post without considering whether some town might not be able to shoot (which you knew for a fact was the case).

[ortolan]

if you're miller-town-cop (and thus there are still other scum alive, who aren't you) you could have only caught a maximum of two people- Cobalt and Nacho, assuming neither of them could actually shoot. Everyone else has shot. Do you think your role is balanced?

[ortolan]

If there were 4 scum in total, and semioldguy is telling the truth, that means he could only get a guilty on 2/4 of the scum players. This claim isn't believable to me. Thus I feel either there's only one scum left, or sog is lying. Either way we can lynch him.

[ortolan]

Anon (and possibly others have gone that long without posting and not being modkilled). I wonder what this means for Anon.

[ortolan]

ok

Vote: SOG

I think Anon is last scum.

[ortolan]

UNGAT SOG

Argh, I can't shake this feeling of a Dragons/Ortolan scumteam.

Just realized Ortolan hasn't posted here in over a week as well, though I'm pretty sure I've seen him posting elsewhere.

that's because this game is going nowhere. Honestly I don't care I'm sick of being mislynched by bad players for bad players so go ahead and add another time I've been mislynched by clueless players to the tally if you like. Honestly some people find me scummy in 60+% of games, you think they would get the hint that they are terrible at reading me but that odds are I shouldn't be scum more than 25+% of the time anyway so they should start reading me better

/rant

I haven't been keeping up with this game but as I said nothing remotely interesting has happened so I don't care

[ortolan]

na I can't be bothered responding

[ortolan]

ok CryMeARiver I'm feeling in a very altruistic and indulgent mood today so I will read your analysis. My conclusion is both that your conclusion is wrong, and therefore horrible, but your analysis and reasoning is extra horrible.

1. SoG is lying scum. He made up all of his investigations to act like town. If this is the case, he is by himself or Ortolan is his partner. Ortolan would be the only scum with a one-shot daykill. This is the case because if you please notice, assuming SoG is lying scum, Ortalon is the only alive person that was defended in his investigations.

2. SoG is telling the truth. He is in fact town and had an investigative power. Since I know I'm not scum (take it for what you will), that leaves Anon, charter, chamber, and Ortolan - I personally believe that charter is town from what I've seen and the fact that both he or The Fonz could have hammered, but didn't makes me think that they are both town...That leaves the two people that were on his bandwagon as the scum team, or individually scum - Ortolan and Anon (I personally think that from the way scum attacked Anon early that he's town an doubt that 2 scum can dayvig)

Scummy to the max. Sorry you don't get it both ways. You don't get to say "if SOG is scum then ortolan is scum with him" then say "if SOG is town then ortolan is attacking him; ergo he's scum". Totally prejudiced argument. Why do I even bother anymore I know not.

In 3 of the 5 possible cases that I see, Ortolan is scum...also, I didn't like his latest post at all (lack of interest in the game)

For future reference, don't ever use this as a scumtell. Ever. Especially with me.

SOG said his own lynch was logical, let's do it. If he flips town kill DoS, if he flips scum kill the crap out of CryMeARiver who is currently trying to mislynch me instead of his scumbuddy SOG with some really crap reasoning in order that they can endgame.

[ortolan]

I'm trying to work out if your "ortolan is scummy no matter what" is bad logic because you're scum or if it's just bad play.

I wasn't aware we were doing that, GATTING SOG prior to lynch seems to make sense.

[ortolan]

I swear I posted in this game before

Remembering that all those investigations are fake and he's scum, Ortolan is the only person alive that he defended...while this is a red flag in my head

If you're town (which I doubt), then this is bad reasoning. Scum can put whatever they like in their posts, including trying to create false links to townies after they die. In fact they do so very consciously a lot of the time. In the case I am town, SOG can have put whatever he liked in his posts in a false attempt to link himself to me (although I disagree that merely claiming he investigated me was indeed an attempt to clear me. What was notable about his claimed targets and why he continued to be scummy is that all he claimed was information which was already available in the thread and thus his ability was unconfirmable. Merely claiming that he investigated me and that I had a shot, after I had already in fact demonstrated that I had a shot; was not "clearing" me at all.)

Anyway, I'm waiting on who you think is most scummy CryMeARiver.

[ortolan]

If you can't see why CryMeARiver ISO 6 is incrediscummy; especially in light of SOG's scumflip (where he basically and very scummily made room to vote me irrespective of SOG's alignment); and retardedly ignore the fact I was the main one pushing through SOG's lynch yesterday; then I cannot help you as a player.

[ortolan]

I fail to see how SOG putting people in the safezone is relevant. If he did put someone he would have put scum in the safezone; but it's not going to do anything anyway as the only remaining ways of dying are lynching and nightkilling (barring some stupid situation like the remaining scum player somehow having multiple daykills, which is just stupid. Even then, again, SOG would have told his scumbuddy who he put in the safezone- and he would have no reason to have put townies in there in the first place).

[ortolan]

tell me you love me, why did you leave me, all alone?

[ortolan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mu8MrCR5pQ

[ortolan]

don't you think it might be preferable to nolynch?

[ortolan]

you have done a decent job at arguing for Anon/charter being town. Now you just need to convince me/everyone else why you aren't scum yourself. Do you think you can defend DoS' day one play?

[ortolan]

you have done a decent job at arguing for Anon/charter being town. Now you just need to convince me/everyone else why you aren't scum yourself. Do you think you can defend DoS' day one play?

Do you agree that Anon and Charter are most likely town?

I wasn't completely sold on you being scum, but your readiness to vote in LYOL coupled with the fact I just remembered you were insisting on lynching town-me instead of obv-scum SOG yesterday so that you could endgame means I think you are probably most likely to be scum, yes.

[ortolan]

The other thing is that you went to the effort of rereading the other players, you haven't really reread me. I would find it hard calling myself scum after reading page 12 of this game personally.

[ortolan]

Anon you should definitely read page 12 of the game if you have any intention of voting me. I don't want to wake up and find the game lost tomorrow by abject town incompetence. Night.

[ortolan]

I fail to see what the purpose of the question is unless you're trying to see whether you could potentially mislynch charter or Anon with my assistance or whether your best bet is continuing to try to mislynch me (yes I haven't gone to bed yet).

[ortolan]

I can see this endgame is going to be painful

[ortolan]

I agree, I don't really have a problem with a no lynch but I'd like to see what the others have to say.

[ortolan]

yer there shouldn't be a problem. I assume lynches still work regardless of being in the safezone and that there's virtually no possibility that scum might have had a role which can inexplicably shoot multiple times.

[ortolan]

Actually, I don't see that much benefit in further discussion if we're going to nolynch.

[ortolan]

Vote: nolynch

[ortolan]

But I cant shake the feeling of ortolan scum.

Maybe reading the game would help you shake it, particularly page 12.

[ortolan]

me being obv-town. Perhaps you should just read it. I attacked like two of the now flipped scum within a short space of time. And my reason for turning attention to Nacho was such a townie reason- "mostly lack of suspicion elsewhere". And you can tell if you actually read my lengthy exchange with SOG that I was extremely critical of him over a number of different posts and discussion points, beyond what would make sense or fits into the archetype of busing. And ironically your insistent asking "why am I scum?" like a puppydog actually made me think of you as town, even if I didn't comment on it at the time. And now charter makes an extremely town post which makes me want to lay a vote down on CMAR almost immediately. I'll wait for his response though.

I demanded an explanation but never got one.

Could be influenced by omgus but at least I would expect him to follow this suspicion the next day. For some reason, that day he went aboard with you in the crymeariver lynch.

Explain what I would stand to gain by doing this as scum otherwise yes, it is purely you being clouded by OMGUS and has no valid basis. It's really dumb especially when I never actively pushed for your lynch.

[ortolan]

what are you thinking right now Anon?

[ortolan]

probably vote CMAR although I will retain paranoia that charter is scum

[ortolan]

nor do I

[ortolan]

I've been here. I don't really have anything to say though.

[ortolan]

I said I would vote CMAR, but still be paranoid that you are scum. Just like having my cake and eating it too.

[ortolan]

still not sure on charter or Orto

That's not what you said yesterday, you were happy to vote me then swiftly switch your vote to charter when you saw some potential for fuel for charter's wagon.

[ortolan]

I said I have no intention of voting charter, anyway I'll do an ISO of the main participants now as we need to resolve this game.

[ortolan]

I actually really feel pretty terrible about Anon when I re-read him. hmm. Onto CMAR

[ortolan]

I'm still rereading. I'll answer those in a bit. I did some meta on DoS. I read 4 scum games of his (board game mafia, empire records, big brother mafia, and LOTA where he was SK). Compared to popcorn, diablo, clue and smalltown 2).

The overall vibe I get from him as town is that he is far less interested/bothered in defending himself. When he gets attacked as scum he tends to take on a more pronounced defensive/aggressive tone and gets what you might call flustered. I also think this posts from a pro-town defence are more sincere and generally try to point to reasons for him being town/reason with those attacking him.

Honestly my gut is screaming DoS was town right now. It's unfortunate that CMAR has acted so incredibly scummy since (e.g. trying to lynch me instead of SOG and after SOG flipped scum still trying to lynch me). If it was Anon versus DoS I'd definitely lynch Anon. By the way charter is obv-town, I don't know where I was going with that.

Anon, at the start of the game what strategy did you think scum would use for the game? Did you think there might be scum with special powers?

No, as evidenced by the fact I thought the game was completely open. That's probably the main reason I found yabbaguy scummy- the way he knew despite there being no indication that those were only "sample" role PMs.

Same questions but now. What strategy do you think they used? What about the scum that could shoot?

I was thinking about this looking back at Anon. That's part of the reason why I turned on him. He was calling SOG obv-town (which I guess is forgivable if he's noob-town and doesn't realise any scumbag can write essay length pieces on setup speculation) for most of the game. This seems like viable scum behaviour- trying to take attention away from your buddy who you know cannot shoot. I also didn't like the way he said when the SoG wagon grew "I looked at my posts and I called him obv-town...but actually...no". In contrast DoS was the first to lay down a vote on SOG from memory. On previous days he'd been calling me scummy, and if he was scum aiming to endgame you would think he would persist in that rather than totally dropping the attack on me and turning to his scumbuddy. The only thing that gives me pause on this train of thought is that you were calling DoS scummy at that point, so it may have been an attempt to inject WIFOM into the game by attacking his scumbuddy in the hopes it would make SOG look good when he himself was lynched. However he provided substantial reasoning at the time. It would be bold scum play on his part, especially considering it's possible after he got his scumbuddy lynched you, charter, might have simply turned your attention back to him.

[ortolan]

Ort, so basically you went from DOS is town, no reasons lol, to Anon is scum, no reasons lol, to CMAR is scum, to Im paranoid about charter, no reasons lol, to Anon is scum, weak raesoning lol, to DOS is town once again. In your words, why shouldnt I be paranoid about you?

I'm not sure if that is an accurate summation of my change in opinion. However I fail to see why that's scummy. Changing one's mind, even frequently is something town are around at least as likely to do as scum. It comes from rereading the game and considering new possibilities and approaches. It is why replacements are often very successful at catching scum, because they bring a new approach to the game.

Sucks to be wrong. And sucks that you really cant take the chance of leaving alive one of your town reads who at the same time is so likely to be scum for game reasons. Theres nothing to like in someone admitting a mistake.

I don't actually understand what you are referring to here.

[ortolan]

I don't quite understand the point you are making CMAR

[ortolan]

that's not very convincing from my perspective. Instead of voting to lynch SOG you voted to lynch me, which would have resulted in scum winning independently of whether you yourself are scum

[ortolan]

Because I don't know who the scum is genius?

[ortolan]

I'm not sure if that is an accurate summation of my change in opinion. However I fail to see why that's scummy. Changing one's mind, even frequently is something town are around at least as likely to do as scum. It comes from rereading the game and considering new possibilities and approaches. It is why replacements are often very successful at catching scum, because they bring a new approach to the game.

Yeah, thats an accurate summation of your change in opinion and the one that has been bothered me to the bones since yesterday. Tell me why shouldnt I think you were expecting to get me lynched in case DOS' replacement wanted to lynch sog instead of you? Tell me why shouldnt I think you forgot about me and pushed CMAR once charter expressed some suspicion of that player slot you thought(think!) was town? Tell me why shouldnt I think you wanted me to vote CMAR so that you could hammer and win the game and now that this hasnt happened you are pushing against me?

Changing your mind isnt scummy per se, its just the context and what you could win as scum from those changes.

I don't actually understand what you are referring to here.

I was trying to say that of course you are not going to like when someone admits a mistake. Either you take it or leave it.

Sadly, cmar plays the noob and the imatown cards. Sigh.

I can't help you with your paranoia. I would never taking changing one's mind as a scumtell, especially if someone does it blatantly and in a way which looks scummy when they are good at playing scum (me).

[ortolan]

CMAR what do you think of Anon? I will vote after this question is answered.

[ortolan]

all: what do you think of nokilling as scum? do you think it is a lame tactic?

[ortolan]

another thing I will point out for any of you incompetently wondering if I am town then that "poll" thing at the beginning which I got attacked for by scum like semioldguy would, if anything, only have helped find scum as we now know there were no town PRs to "out", only 3 scum without kills.

If any of you (read Anon) calls me scum again without addressing this and my interactions with semioldguy both early and late game I am going to find it very hard to take you seriously.

[ortolan]

anything to say before I vote you CMAR?

[ortolan]

See ya after the game!

I don't like this comment. Sorry.

I may have a questionable record on these sorts of decisions, so apologies in advance if I'm wrong.

If charter is scum he has played very well. I would lynch him last out of CMAR and Anon.

Rereading Anon I'm not as sure I had as much of a basis to suspect him as I thought. There were quite a few little things. I'm not sure if he had scum motivation to draw attention to his scumbuddy in ISO 2 like that, I also like the fact he voted SOG and I previously took his tunneling OMGUS on me as a towntell and I think I'm back to that point now.

And CMAR pretty much forced me to vote him by posting 510.

So here we go

Vote: CryMeARiver

I'm gonna have to write off DoS's 456 as an attempt at WIFOM. It does make sense as scum play because if/when one or the other of them were lynched it would come very close to confirming the other for the rest of the game. Plus SOG was even supporting his own lynch around that time. Good game!

[ortolan]

meh, gg. CMAR tied my hands by trying to lynch me instead of semioldguy, then going for charter when the only other person I would have voted was Anon. Wouldn't have mattered if I'd stuck with the meta read cause I doubt I could have convinced charter and CMAR to vote Anon anyhow (when I tried to scrutinise Anon all it resulted in was charter threatening to vote me)

I did not deserve that daykill. It was ridiculous apathy-pushing and was absolutely inexcusable. When games degenerate to "I'm bored, how about yabbaguy?" or whoever, you know you're doing something wrong. Accuse the apathetic and hold the gun to his head. Do something.

In fairness I did kind of have a scumread on you. It was based on something substantial, you "knowing" the role PMs were samples. I have generally found that sort of slip to be quite a reliable scumtell in many cases. As it happened I was wrong, and I am sorry.

[ortolan]

that post-content based mechanic sounds interesting actually. It does kind of screw with the town who (perhaps inevitably) try to second guess the setup though. And it does render the scum PM shown to the town rather misleading.

[ortolan]

that post-content based mechanic sounds interesting actually. It does kind of screw with the town who (perhaps inevitably) try to second guess the setup though. And it does render the scum PM shown to the town rather misleading.

The scum didn't know about this effect either.

Yer I know the scum couldn't manipulate it, the problem I see is it punishes town for trying to use the setup to their advantage, which inevitably happens in all games anyway.

[ortolan]

it amazes me how some people love tunneling so much when I see some pretty obviously pro-town interactions that I had. Selective vision is amazing.

[ortolan]

Meh, I had it down to Orto and Anon. Orto's blatant scumminess, followed by megawifom defence, weren't helping.

and for the record, I didn't like your replacement technique of just providing a wall of text with completely obfuscated meaning. I didn't read any of it.