Stars Aligned II - Game Over!

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I'm not sure whether it was a good idea to claim who warded, but since so few players apparently warded, I suppose it doesn't matter anymore.

I *did* hear Noise last night. I did not ward.

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I was going to vote EK for challenging Sly on what were quite reasonable reservations with dramwagon, but Ani is sort of crazy. I agree with EK. Either she is quite dumb, or she has an anti-town ulterior motive.

Unvote; Vote: ani

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I am too dumb to think of any other ones.

Maybe she wants scum to think she's a Murderer so that she will be NK'd because she thinks she's not a very good player? I suppose that's a slightly-more-sophisticated interpretation of events. A comparatively remote one, though.

PS: I am thrilled that someone either loves me enough to Ward me, or wants to kill me. I love you, too. <3

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I want to play with the corpses.

I agree that having an insanity'd person do it is fine, though. For that matter, hearing Noise gives insanity, right? So maybe we're tied!

Cue obligatory "That was awfully convenient..." @ Ani/Sajin. O_O

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Stalk is not the same as Track AFAIK. The only reason to Stalk someone is if you want to kill them the following night.

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NB: The probability that Ani is cult is quite low. The probability that she intends to be a murderer, however, is a relatively large number.

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Eww. The only way out was if she somehow thought that Stalk was a form of tracking. Then it would make sense to Stalk a perceived skilled player. How obnoxious.

I'll leave my vote, anyway. I don't like being naked, and I don't yet see an obvious alternate target.

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Eww. The only way out was if she somehow thought that Stalk was a form of tracking. Then it would make sense to Stalk a perceived skilled player. How obnoxious.

I'll leave my vote, anyway. I don't like being naked, and I don't yet see an obvious alternate target.

I'm not accusing you of scummy intentions, but it is typically a bad idea to tell people what their reasonable explanation should be.

Ani had already indicated that her reason had been something else. That's why I felt OK about saying it.

@ ST -- Yeah, it's highly remote in that positing two scum with this little information is always going to be low-probability. But I think he was awfully quick to come up with that solution after a claim that ultimately "confirmed" current town status on Ani.

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Ok, unless someone warded me, then ani is likely cult who was trying to get ahead of the insanity count.

...?

You aren't the only one to hear Noise without making it yourself.

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Scum never have to read as close as town. I already caught on.

Hmm? Really? Why? Not that I'm not somewhat receptive to Adelscum.

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The only person who needs to be claiming their ward target at this point is someone who warded myself or Adel.

totally agree.

The other is fine, but I still don't understand this. What's magic about your circumstances?

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If VP is warded, then that means his Ward on Adel did not work. If it didn't work, Ani might be being truthful with his stalk claim

If VP wasn't warded, it means that his Ward on Adel did work, which means that Ani would have said "and my stalk failed"

So If VP's ward on Adel worked, Ani is a cultist (or just a scummy liar who should be lynched anyway)

Similiarly, if another person warded Adel, then VP's ward can be broken and Ani still is a liar.

Thats why they're special.

Thank ye. That makes perfect sense. I thought VP was a Heard Noise/No Ward person and that that was the myopic basis of his statement.

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Now we will have hard evidence for his town-alignment instead of "too scummy to be scum" which is a really horrible precedent to set in a game.

Did anyone actually make that argument? I think the argument was largely "ami is dumbtown and/or wants to be 3rd party."

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I agree that we should force the grave robber to take confirmable insanities to the extent that it is possible. For one, keeping someone from being a Murderer for the first several days greatly decreases the odds of winning the game as a Murderer, so it would seem to be reasonable insurance against whoever taking that path.

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I think we decided that Warding Warders cancels the Warder's Ward, right?

Since scum (I think?) can Ward, they could mess up the Ani-warders by warding them.

But then their night target would survive, which would be no good for them.

So this would only be problematic if one of the 2 players selected to Ward Ani was scum, since they wouldn't have to explain away their target. And the scumfriend who kills Ani would still probably be caught.

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I have an a priori skepticism that choosing to randomly select targets in a scenario where the only ones who die will be town is net pro-town. But it does seem that way intuitively, doesn't it? Hmm....

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^ Nah, the Warders wouldn't get bloody.

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Yeah -- I had "only town shoots" and "only town dies" backward in my head for whatever reason. Not sure why.

They could become Murderers as of N2, actually, right? And earlier for Ani and any other opportunistic stalkers? So people could mess with this if they thought it would be more fun to ruin the win for everyone or whatever.

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All would-be Murderers are currently Investigators. The probability of winning is greatest for any given person by remaining an Investigator. Therefore, the only reason to become a Murderer is if an individual thinks said flavor is kinda neat, and whomever is more interested in that than in his/her personal win/lose status.

Is that incorrect?

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In other words -- it is spiteful to become a murderer, because it decreases both your own odds of success and also that of your (current) teammates.

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I wish I were a cultist. I would have a funny mask.

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Murderers don't win until they murder 3 people. That means D5 at the earliest, and that would prevent them from stalking tonight, so we'd recognize who they are D3. So Murderers really can't win until D6 at the very earliest. Then you have to factor in the probability of not being killed by random mass murder and so forth.

Investigation is a far higher-probability win condition under Adel's system AFAIK. The only reason to be a Murderer is if you are sort of an ass, or if you think the game is too easy -- in which case the solution is to make a new one.

I

support

the plan, but I think there's still some merit in discussing it. I think people are saying interesting things about it, and I'd like to make sure we're not missing something.

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Won't cultists simply fetish every time investigators stalk, and Ritual in the place of a murder?

They can't Ritual all of their assigned murder targets. Some players they're paired with will survive. Then we'll know either that a member of the Ani-2 Warders trifecta was scum that warded the target, or that the killer was scum unable to kill.

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Did dramonic stalk someone? What's his insanity?

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SlySly is almost certainly scum if the two modkills he just requested are town. For one, that (= what SlySly just did) is a very dastardly thing to do. Second, there is no indication that either party was discussing this game per se until Vi transparently indicated as much. If anyone is violating the spirit of that rule, it is the party who inappropriately contextualized the conversation IMO.

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The allegedly offending conversation is very abstract IMO. You can read it to judge for yourself. I would not have considered it a violation of the rule.

I mean, suppose I am asked about my experience with Vi's meta, and I say "I have played with Vi." Suppose the only instance of that is an ongoing game. Am I guilty of "talking about games outside the thread?" It's sort of vacuously true, maybe, but I wouldn't personally consider that problematic because any stricter adherence to said rule irreparably disrupts discourse.

Disclaimer: I only scanned the first few posts. I may have missed something more sketchy.

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Actually, I do think he would be perfectly likely to ask in thread. I have read games where scum does precisely that and then uses the rhetoric you have indicated to exonerate themselves.

And, in any event, the fact that there are perhaps smarter ways to go about something does not change that the act itself is (probabilistically and according to my own perceptions of Adel's play and to a lesser extent Phate's play) anti-town.

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People who were and still are adamant about ani being scum are scum. How is this not obvious now that we have essentially confirmed that ani is town?

Did anyone actually make that argument? I have no recollection. A handful suggested that he might be covering up a yet-to-come insanity, but I think that's as close to your suggestion as we can come.

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Right, that's part of my point. I don't think there's anyone in the set of players VP is claiming we should lynch from.

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Ell, would you request a modkill on two (IMO) town-appearing players as a town player for great justice?

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kk. <3EK<3 btw. (I'm trying to change the subject.)

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I see nothing in particular to complain about. The mechanisms that cause membership in your Town group aren't very well-operationalized (e.g. "gut"), but I don't see any huge discrepancies.

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Ell's idea seems fine. I think Adel wanted to randomize it because the background probability of the plan being net pro-town was high, whereas making a list like that could potentially allowed skilled scum to subvert group membership.

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"Murder" =/= vig
"murder" = vig

Investigators can murder. Murderers can, too.

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Ya, I was explaining why Chaco's identification of "murder" (lowercase "m") with "vig" is not inappropriate.

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Why is Ell scummy? I remember that thought crossing my mind a long time ago, but he has been well-behaved recently.

And who is Nicodemus? (Goes to read.)

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Nicky is innocuous-to-scummy IMO. Supporting Adel while expressing lack of understanding is an event that falls into the latter category. He's posted several empty "fun" posts, too, and without other substantive posts.

It's certainly better than my Ani vote.

Unvote: Vote: Nicodemus

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What do you mean by "breaking infractions on purpose"? I don't follow.

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Phate, why do you -- in back-to-back posts -- single-out Ell as a Hall of Fame scum player and then give her +like points for her brilliant plan?

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OOK @ Ell. I must admit that that part sounded very tedious to confirm. Still a good idea, though.

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Yep, you've got the pronunciation correct. /jekerInt/ with epsilons and schwas as appropriate.

You're misglossing my phrase. I meant that he was a salient-enough scumplayer from your perspective for you to single him out by name. Or are you saying that that's not quite right?

I would tentatively support an implementation of Ell's plan.

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I almost chose Stalk. Murderer is such fascinating flavor!

But it's also a much lower win probability, so it's almost literally a violation of the rules to go that route.

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That's a lovely list, even if it's a terrible idea to make any one person the boss of such things. I'd possibly demote Phate, though. Not sure who I'd promote. I dunno some of those people.

Phate, why are Ell's circumstances different from ani's?

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@ Ani, it's not as if Ell's mystery insanity is psychopathy. I could understand if this were a second infraction, but the first being mysterious is no big deal AFAIK.

@ Phate, I believe it's Sajin's plan. But OK. They could always both be graverobbers, if we're convinced we need more than one.

ALSO -- since graverobbers probably get bloody, we need a few people to stand by the sidelines and watch politely.

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I think this may be worth mentioning as well. All on Town list stalk/ murder, and if we were wrong, we search untill we find a Resc. kit. We then use it on the player below us (or if your last on the list, the 1st player on it)

Uhh. I think the kits are like doc abilities. They're not revival abilities AFAIK.

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Ya; if Ani's gonna play with the corpses, we need someone else to stand by and cheer her on. Maybe someone who wards her ad infinitum.

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Oh, nevermind. Playing with corpses doesn't make you bloody. I guess we're careful to drain them.

She still might need a friend in case cult decides to incite Chaos. Not sure whether they'd want that, though.

Carry on.

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...

Are you suggesting we should cede complete control over the killers and the killees to a player you consider likely scum?

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I thought you meant "Elli's plan == Elli's list." As there is, ye know, no resistance to Ell's plan to speak of.

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kk boss.

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I agree.

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What if the corpse is a warder?

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He's awfully grouchy in this game. He's much friendlier via PM.

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He's awfully grouchy in this game. He's much friendlier via PM.

Whom?

Sly. You, on the other hand, are always a bit grouchy. <3

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I agree that Sly should point out the holes. The holes in Sly's plan is that there may be a superior alternate plan: namely, Ell's.

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It's not really a prisoner's dilemma.

In a prisoner's dilemma (the economics one, I mean; MS people have some other thing they call PD for whatever reason), both parties invariably benefit from personally defecting, even though the aggregate gain is greatest via cooperation.

In this scenario, by contrast, both parties suffer whenever a player defects. It is spiteful (lose-lose) to become a Murderer.

I am skeptical of the notion that Percy is crying in a corner because we want to plan ahead to maximize the chance that town will win and thereby somehow totally invalidate the fun factor of this game. Rather, I think that the process of maximizing the utility of night actions is part of the game.

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The plan is kinda a no-brainer IMO. It is both simple to understand and intuitively simple to implement. The people who either can't understand it or don't think it would work should indicate what is challenging to understand or why it will not work. It looks like people are trying to cast doubt on a clearly-powerful plan because they have no other means of undermining it.

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Vigs shouldn't become Murderers because it lowers the chance of their winning considerable. Murderers win on their 6th murder, but they can only murder every other day. So they win D6 at the earliest (D7 if they didn't already Stalk, but those players would be beaten to the win by other Murderers, anyway, so there's even less reason for them to switch). But practicing mass genocide will greatly reduce the number of days such that it is unlikely that a Murderer will have enough to complete even the maximally-quick route to the win.

We could also require that Stalkers take specific insanities (avolition ala ani, e.g.) to find Psychopathy-takers outright.

We don't know we're going to hit more than half the cultists for sure. That was true of Adel's model, too. Our success depends on our scumhunting abilities D1.

The reason this is a good system -- as Faraday indicated in intuitive terms -- is that by D3 we would ordinarily have 2 opportunities to kill scum whereas this model provides 8-10 (depending on how we use No Lynch). 6 free lynches is nice.

It's true that there's a temporary opportunity cost associated with the loss of whatever items may have been Searched for D1, but we'll get those back whenever Ani robs them from your grave, anyway.

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The rez kit point is well-taken; I hadn't thought of that. But I think it can be dealt with. The cult would have to forego Stalking to search for one assuming they haven't already done so. (I assume most of them used Craft Fetish.) So StalkerCult will probably do that since they won't Murder their target, anyway, but we could catch them D2 by requiring them to take a confirmable insanity.

StalkeeCult could also do what you're implying. The simplest solution is to force Stalkees to also take confirmable insanities.

tl;dr

Stalkees launder confirmable insanities to prevent rez kit searches. Stalkers take confirmable insanities to prevent rez kit searches.

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Well, right. They still have to demonstrate an insanity (via the Ritual), though. If they spend N1 searching for a rez kit, they won't have an insanity, and we'll be able to find them D2.

Failing to be demonstrably insane will be scummy.

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Well, for one, there are quite literally more of us. So long as everyone contributes, average input into the shooter list will be town.

It's worth remembering that hypothical ShooterCults won't be able to kill their targets. So it's not as if there's the same payoff for either side either having a town or cult player as a shooter. (NB: I did not work out the math in my head for that, so correct me if I'm wrong.)

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VP, why do you want to lynch me? You voted me in a post with no other justification a few pages ago, but have never elaborated since then, nor did you appear to preempt your vote with reasoning beforehand.

Sajin, as you are quite aware, I didn't play the first Stars Aligned. If what you say is true -- and I see no reason for you to lie -- then you're correct that that is a potential flaw. (Your confrontational tone is a bit puzzling.)

My a priori plan as cult would've been to craft many fetishes N0 to give the cult more options and make Ward choices more difficult, so I didn't consider that cult may have taken that route. After all, rez kits don't save lynch victims, so their utility to cult is less than their utility to town.

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I mean, is there anything operationalizing your claim that I am scum, or are you just sort of making it up as you go along? For example, are you explicitly calling for my lynch because Sajin just took a confrontational tone with me (i.e. perceived vulnerability), or do you have legitimate reasons for doing so?

lol@ES.

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Your original vote didn't have any rhetoric attached it to, so I ignored it. You chose to insert your rhetoric in what I perceive to be to have been based on Sajin's tone, so that's the reason I brought it up now.

Most of the "town" isn't pointing out holes; rather, they're vaguely indicating that they "think the plan won't work" or say that they "don't understand the plan, but will do whatever the geniuses think." (One salient exception is Sajin's very recently pointing out rez kits, but that can't be what you're referring to, because it was after your vote.)

If anyone is scummy with regard to the plan, it's those players. As I read it, those players are either trying to discredit the plan without indicating why it is a bad plan (i.e. because they don't want it to happen, but don't want to debate that subject directly) or are trying to avoid taking responsibility for the plan, but want it to happen (i.e. because they want it to happen, but don't want to take responsibility for it when they believe it will fail). These are scummy actions.

I'd already pointed out the above paragraph's content in an earlier post IIRC. I also indicated the lack of town motivation for Sly's modkiller stunt. I'd almost venture to say that that's the closest to scumhunting anyone has come today; others are trying to substitute it with attacking are-not-now-but-could-become Murderers, etc.

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EBWOP: EK, you are misrepresenting that post. If you look at what I just posted, you'll see that that content maps perfectly onto the two scummy groups I indicate in paragraph 3. My goal was to force players whose attitude toward the plan was scummy to participate in a way that would indicate as much.

For example, if "I don't know if this will work" players were sort of at a loss in the short term to explain themselves, or if they all come to the same single conclusion in the somewhat longer term, that is evidence that they are full of shit. On the other hand, if they have legitimate reasons for being concerned (and god knows why they waited so long to share them, ala Sajin), sharing them is clearly the proper thing to do.

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EBWOP: Similarly, forcing confused/"confused" players to read a single post of minimal complexity both increases town participation in vetting the plan and reducing scum's ability to claim that they knew it all along when/if something failed to be recognized.

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^ Adel's earlier play was comparatively on-the-backburner. That's why I had lingering suspicions.

Modkillers annoy me. For one thing, they are almost never town.

Also, now that it's over, I can point out that the game I was alluding to in the abstract earlier was Kingdom Hearts mafia to possibly contextualize my attitude toward modkillers:

Scum (Cobalt) tried to modkill me D1. I pointed out that there was no motivation for town to have done what he did. His scumfriend (Gorrad) pulled the "he could just have PM'd the mod!" rhetoric, and that dispute ended. He happened to be nailed on D2 after a really awful fakeclaim predicated by an apparent interaction with another player who was incidentally a member of an unrelated scumteam.

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Uh, Sly, if Person A does something such that there is greater probability that a non-town player did it, and Person B points it out, that is sort of the definition of scumhunting.

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VP was alluding to an earlier post of mine where I said something like "Why do you think XXX thing about Adel is sketchy? Not that it's impossible he could be scum." If I'm not mistaken, that was before Adel's plan and all that. At that point (LONG LONG AGO), Adel's play had been pretty minimalistic, so I could have still seen him as scum, but whoever's attack on him still didn't make any sense. That was the basis of my question.

I'll take perceived assholes over scum in the short term. Part of playing the game is obeying the "play to win" rule.

No, he did not. I indicated upon replacing in that my experience with Cobalt indicated that his attitude toward DeathNote in that game was inconsistent with what I had seen elsewhere. Cobalt knew that the basis of that knowledge was most likely an ongoing game he had replaced out of, so he tried to get me to break the ongoing-game rule so that I would be modkilled. I protested that I had deliberately avoided any direct allusion to the game in question. Cobalt and I were ultimately both given a warning.

You are welcome to review the game. It's a Large Theme game that should be near the top of its forum. The altercation starts just a few pages after I replace in. My iso should make it easy to find.

This may also contextualize why I was/am on Adel/Phate's side in that altercation. I felt pretty victimized in that scenario and was ultimately correct with regard to who was scum.

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Yeah, I don't understand the point of Occult books given Ell's plan. Town should all have high, equivalent insanity if we use Ell's plan. If Occult books also indicated *low* insanity (e.g. due to sneaking rez kits instead of stalking stalkees), they might have a place in it.

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My perception of events about Adel replacing out was/is that town had broken the game and scum were whiny about it and consequently resorting to childish techniques like modkilling.

People of course are allowed to have reservations -- hell, I did, if you look at my interaction with Adel -- but they should test those reservations to determine whether they are valid. I determined quickly that mine were not valid. Players who somehow saw the issue of whether the plan would be useful as insufficiently important to investigate are either scum, in too many games, or totally baffle me.

Death is good! That's how we win! We kill people! There's nothing scary about death!

Ell didn't have to come out as a stalker. His insanity can't be confirmed. He also set himself up to be murdered given his insanity without even taking a straw poll on the issue. What a model citizen, etc.

If anything, I think the effect and intent of his coming out was just what he indicated it was -- he wanted to encourage others to come out, too, because it had become clear that Murderers never prosper, etc. They didn't, but I think it was an honest gesture.

Even if he's a cultist, as you realistically indicate is possible, claiming stalker doesn't do much for him either way as far as I could tell. We can still keep him away from the rez kits with compulsory laundering, which is all that matters vis a vie the plan.

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lol@Sly openly admitting that he thinks I am town, even if he probably didn't intend it to come out that way.

I didn't stalk last night.

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Part of playing the game is obeying the "play to win" rule.

Do you think the "play to win" rule outweighs the "Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where allowed to do so by your role" rule?

I don't. Follow all the rules or be modkilled. It is simple.

1. I don't think what Adel and Phate did was objectionable. Saying "there exist games where the young uns won't tolerate 'game breaking' for shallow reasons, and that annoys me" is not a violation of that rule IMO.
2A. Even if it WERE objectionable, I think that your modkill request was objectionable, because it was either scum-motivated, or (probabilistically) it was against your win condition. "Two wrongs don't make a right." Granted, I'm not personally convinced of Adel/Phate's wrong on that issue.
2B. It's worth noting that your modkill request is not objectionable if you are scum. In such an event, you may reasonably simply be playing to your win condition.
3. This is all very beside-the-point. If you have ideological reasons for wanting to modkill people for marginal rule infractions, that's bewildering to me, but I suppose it may in fact be the case.

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EK, I'm a bit surprised at you. I can kind of understand VP picking a favorite target and tunneling, even if the timing of his escalation was very suspicious, but your involvement puzzles me. Namely, your explanations of my scuminess are either myopic in ways I do not associate with your play, or hinge on the scuminess of other players.

Clearly, I didn't Craft Fetish either. Bonus: I didn't Launder, either!

That is all you get.

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Actually, DGB has only posted 14 times. That is lurking hardcore for DGB.

Your attitude toward me certainly seemed to indicate you thought I was scum. I would not personally take that attitude toward someone I thought was town -- unless, of course, I knew they were town because I was scum, etc. But I suppose that's for people reading the thread to judge.

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Goodposting from iLord.

I ignored VP's vote the first time because it was unexplained; there was literally nothing there. I figure he was looking for a reaction. I responded to it later on because of the timing; he waited until another player had taken a confrontational tone with me, and THEN he came up with rhetoric for my being scum. To me, this seemed like a technique designed to use the emotional circumstances of other players to generate wagons/etc. rather than an attempt to discern anyone's alignment.

The rez pack issue can be dealt with. Picking up rez packs does not cause insanity. Neither does resuscitating someone. On the other hand, both stalking and murdering cause insanity. So we will be able to judge which cult players resuscitated by forcing all town players to choose confirmable insanities. This subverts the implicit intent of insanity, because LACK of insanity becomes a scumtell.

^ Is there a hole in that?

I noticed you glossed over SlySly's modkill request on Adel...do you just see it as an emotionally-charged issue (i.e. one that will get us off-track to discuss), or do you see it as irrelevant to determining alignments? Or both?

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Fair enough @ Sly. I should note, though, that I'm playing this game because DGB invited me to via PM. So, given that people tend to invite others to games that they are relatively interested in, I am a bit surprised by her relatively low level of activity.

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EBWOP: One hole is that the obligatory blood-less characters could potentially be scum-who-picked-up-rez-kits, but that is comparatively low-probability; it's still a pro-town plan provided that there is a high level of cooperation from town.

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Fair enough @ Sly. I should note, though, that I'm playing this game because DGB invited me to via PM. So, given that people tend to invite others to games that they are relatively interested in, I am a bit surprised by her relatively low level of activity.

Me too, that is why I brought it up in the first place. DGB is usually one of the most active players in the game. I'm sure you know that if she is inviting you to games.

Oh? I don't feel like her boytoy anymore. How sad.

I've invited her to games in the past. I'd figured she was just reciprocating.

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EK, I'm a bit surprised at you. I can kind of understand VP picking a favorite target and tunneling, even if the timing of his escalation was very suspicious, but your involvement puzzles me. Namely, your explanations of my scuminess are either myopic in ways I do not associate with your play, or hinge on the scuminess of other players.

AtE

Well, more specifically, your interpretation of my post encouraging people who are confused/"confused"/skeptical/"skeptical" to voice their concerns a bit more explicitly was incredibly myopic, and your lengthy discussion of why Ell is a nasty man was the example that hinged on other players' actions. I thought the events were recent enough that I wouldn't have to cross-supply the posts that explicitly for you.

You whined about me doing the latter in Nouns mafia not too long ago (we were both town), so it is surprising to see you do as much.

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Aversion, Distraction, Paranoid, Twitchy, and Sadism are all relatively easy to prove through Insanity Infractions.

Twitchy, at least, is very easy to fake. Cults could grab rez kits and fake the restriction instead of stalking. Twitchy should not be allowed.

Sadism is lovely, though. Aversion is fine, though it's very tedious and dangerous to test. Maybe we could have some stalkees choose it. I can't remember the other two, but we really only need 2 confirmable insanities for the plan, anyway.

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Chaco, I think you're misunderstanding Pass Fetish. Pass Fetish is a way that Cult can give Investigators insanities. The intent of Insanities is that it's a cipher for anti-town behavior, so Cult can manufacture that appearance by freaking people out by giving them little voodoo dolls.

Ell's plan makes that pretty silly, though I suppose they can pass one another fetishes to generate fake insanity. This would require that they did this N0, though, which is even more remote than having them go for rez packs.

[Iecerint]

If a character posts before PMing their Insanity choice(s) to the Moderator, or if they contradict one of their Insanities in any post, the Moderator will insert the text

Insanity Infraction

into the post. If a character receives 3 Insanity Infractions in one game

Day

, they will lose their

Night Action

for the following

Night

, and will gain an

Insanity

instead. If a player reaches an Insanity Count of

8

, they will no longer gain any

Insanities

. Votes that contradict Insanities will not contribute to a Lynch.[/area]

Amazing! I had been assuming that violating twitchy would result in a modkill or something. As it is, it's so breakable that Percy is literally BEGGING us to use his "Insanity Infraction" counter to our advantage. The first two infractions are penalty-free!

[Iecerint]

Well, I would probably bitch at you D3 for not pointing it out D1, and then you would flip scum. Or, we would have caught the issue, anyway, because someone would have indicated that we should have everyone take confirmable insanities. Why do you ask?

I have "addressed" the average result of the plan to the extent that you have (i.e. I have said it favors town), so I don't know what you're alluding to in the relevant sentence, except that it is pure rhetoric.

I do not buy your claim that an invisible pink unicorn will keep this plan from working.

[Iecerint]

You could just as easily argue that the plan negates the use of Pass Fetish for scum.

[Iecerint]

Two problems here, to pass a fetish you get an insanity.

Only the target of Pass Fetish receives an insanity. The cultist doesn't receive an insanity. Your syntax implies the opposite a bit, so that's what concerned me.

[Iecerint]

My understanding is that an individual scum may not both participate in the ritual and search for a rez kit. That's why only half the scum have to participate in the ritual; the other half can make fetishes, pass them, hunt for items, etc. Also, my understanding is that rez kits belong to individual scum players (unlike fetishes, which belong to the collective).

If any of that is mistaken, then that is my problem. If not, then I think the rez kit-searchers will not personally gain an insanity, and we can find them accordingly.

[Iecerint]

Ah, looks like the ritual is a free action. Nevermind. The plan is no longer the best thing ever. Major bummer.

[Iecerint]

EK, who accused you of tunneling? Because it seems like you're referring to me, but.... O_O

[Iecerint]

Your insistence that you have a game breaking plan without reading a ton of the rules astounds me.

I sorry.

I didn't understand the point of having a set number of Cult nominally "participate" in the ritual if those players could just do something else, anyway. In hindsight, I suppose they avoid blood and insanities, but that wasn't really processing because the mechanism I was promoting would have made that irrelevant, anyway. Ah well.

I withdraw my support for the plan unless someone can deal with the rez kits.

[Iecerint]

@ EK -- Nah. VP is a special case, because he voted me ages and ages and ages ago, even though he didn't really explain or justify the vote in any way at the time (and his explanations involve post-vote stuff for the most part IIRC). The rest of you are not tunneling for the reason you already indicated.

[Iecerint]

WHERE IS THAT WOMAN?

[Iecerint]

@ Sajin, it's irrelevant because of the Ritual being a free action, but I don't understand why self-laundering would be a scum tactic in that circumstance. It's not a free action. Are you just pointing out that they could pick up an insanity that way? Why is that relevant, when they could always use the Ritual for that?

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: I suppose your point is maybe that they could Launder->Ritual with Stalk->Murder to match Blood levels, but there's no real point, because they wouldn't expect forensic tools. Ah well. Doesn't matter, anyway.

Hey, I'm the center of attention atm. Don't blame me; it wasn't my idea.

[Iecerint]

I have performed a scientific test to determine whose fault it is that we are on page 3243:

Phate - 33 posts
Elli - 59 posts
SlySly - 89 posts
Iecerint - 93 posts

I WIN!

...But it's still anyone's game, etc.

[Iecerint]

Ah, I forgot that blood messed up rez kits. That makes sense.

[Iecerint]

Fair enough @ Sly. I should note, though, that I'm playing this game because DGB invited me to via PM. So, given that people tend to invite others to games that they are relatively interested in, I am a bit surprised by her relatively low level of activity.

Me too, that is why I brought it up in the first place. DGB is usually one of the most active players in the game. I'm sure you know that if she is inviting you to games.

Oh? I don't feel like her boytoy anymore. How sad.

I've invited her to games in the past. I'd figured she was just reciprocating.

The "Me too" was surprise at her low level of activity. Percy invited me.

Oh. Then I'm still the only boytoy. (And I figure I can fight off EK.) Hooray!

[Iecerint]

The above rings somewhat false for me for a certain reason.

(Seacore iso read.)

[Iecerint]

Hmm. There's still a slight secret scumtell on SC, but I don't think he's necessarily a better lynch than Nicky.

[Iecerint]

I've been in other games and discussed "breaking" the game.

Often I'm for it. If there's a way to twist out an advantage for the town, then that's great.

In this case, however, it seemed to be substituting a mathematical formula in the place of scum hunting, from Day 1, to provide us with a good chance of winning.

Oh hey look, I've got some dice on my desk, if I get a 2 or higher, I win.. yay! I won!
That was fun

Now I'm ready to play mafia

This is the post that makes it only a weak secret scumtell.

[Iecerint]

Neat @ EK. Had not noticed.

[Iecerint]

Huh? I thought I started Nickywagon? Regarding which my main annoyance is the absence of the wagon'd party.

I would encourage you to review your prior experience with Iecerint.

[Iecerint]

NB: Secret scumtell on Phate.

[Iecerint]

^ Then you probably should have brought it up from the beginning. Then you might have gotten your 3 pages.

[Iecerint]

Phate is a party-pooper.

[Iecerint]

Phate's grandfatherly calls for fewer posts remind me of DDD's play in my first game on the site. He was scum. At present, I'm experiencing terrible deja vu, and I have a secret scumtell on Phate to match.

I agree with you about Nicky. Phate is probably his scumfriend.

[Iecerint]

I gave you background information to help you evaluate the basis of my feelings about Phate. That is relevant, new information. It's true that some of my posts are just for fun, but they're the minority, and that isn't an example of one.

I have nothing to add to your case on Nicky. That's why I didn't elaborate. Trust me, I'd have done so.

[Iecerint]

I don't see any particular reason why you need to die, at least not for some time, so long as you take only confirmable insanities hereafter. Investigators can only receive 1 insanity per night IIRC, and a Murder on CC + confirmable insanity would essentially make you confirmed town. You should probably stay away from the resuscitation kits and so forth, though.

[Iecerint]

<3KATY<3

I. So happy. I take back SC's secret scumtell. It is temporarily null.

I promise not to fail at fakelynching you within pages of your replacing in this time.

[Iecerint]

If a person says "secret scumtell," it means that a tell exists, but that whomever cannot discuss it in detail because it may involve, for example, an ongoing game.

Seacore's secret scumtell is still valid, but it was pretty weak, anyway, and Katy gets automatic +like points to cancel it out.

Phate's secret scumtell is comparatively significant.

No complaints @ Elli.

[Iecerint]

Are you TRYING to antagonize me in a fashion that cannot in any fashion be interpreted as pro-town?

[Iecerint]

Neither requires a genius to figure them out.

I agree that they're a side-show relative to Nicky, but the fact that Nicky is absent and only has about 8 posts, which have all been analyzed to death, indicates that there's little left there atm IMO, except request a prod, unless someone has a good reason for Nicky being town or whatever.

[Iecerint]

Investigators cannot gain more than one Insanity per night as a result of this action [Pass Fetish].

I misremembered this as "Investigators can receive no more than 1 insanity per night." <_<

As such, Sajin's point is valid. We could ask Ani (or whichever graverobber) to indicate whether she collected any items from the grave. If she did, no other graverobbing occurred, and Elli is safe. This is subvertable by Nicky (or whomever) having not collected an item N0 and/or by cult also robbing the grave, but this still makes cult pick up an extra insanity, so it's worth it. We'll still possibly need to think about killing Elli on or by D4 or so, but that depends on other events that happen in the mean time.

[Iecerint]

The Mod has confirmed that the two kill types will have distinct flavors. The Cult would not be able to Ritual their stalkee targets to create the appearance that they had Murdered them AFAIK.

The plan is nonetheless kinda gimped because:

1. Sajin believes cult may have picked up rez kits N0 and
2. Even if they did not, they can rob grave for free insanity to claim stalk while they grab them N1 and
3. Then they can rez kit stalkees to give the appearance that the stalker is cult who can't murder. This could screw up at least a few town->cult match-ups.

[Iecerint]

Hayker never posted anything useful in Kingdom Hearts mafia as town. It was a godsend when he was NK'd. So his level of involvement doesn't necessarily indicate anything. I think it's best to mentally link him with Adel until he lurks enough that we can replace him.

The others are probably too busy daytalking to bother with the thread.

[Iecerint]

Target: Any Dead player.
Effects: The alignment of the Dead player is publicly revealed the next Day. If you are the only player to target them, you will receive all of their equipment (Resuscitation Kits provided you are not Bloody, Forensic Kits and/or Occult Books) if they had any.
Prerequisites: None.
Side Effects: You gain an Insanity. Your target turns to Dust.
Free Action: You may choose Rob Grave and another Night Action.

As I read it, multiple grave robs will mean that the alignment of the player is still revealed, but no one receives any of the equipment. Correct me if I am mistaken. Also, even if I'm mistaken, your receiving that sort of message would appear equivalent to the case where you don't pick up the equipment, except that it's even better, because it can't be confounded by Nicky/whoever having done something other than Search.

And that's what you get for having that sort of avatar.

[Iecerint]

I would prefer you post on the same account if possible, even if that's a cute avatar. It simplifies iso reads.

[Iecerint]

Well, she technically could have laundered N0. But she's probably as confirmed as they come.

[Iecerint]

Oh, wait. The fact that there was a mod-confirmed error regarding her N0 action would seem to imply that she didn't launder. So she is indeed 99.5% confirmed town.

[Iecerint]

Me and ani, I think. lol.

[Iecerint]

Ani, I paused to let you elaborate yourself, but you didn't. Why do you think that Katy's third quote is a cultslip? I am too stupid to figure it out.

[Iecerint]

Oh, OK. I thought you were saying that Katy's having posted that quote was a cultslip on Katy's part. Gotcha now.

[Iecerint]

You may need to unvote first, darling. I say "may" because I'm really not sure.

[Iecerint]

<3 Just doing whatever I can to help out. <3

I should catalog all the spellings of my name somewhere.

[Iecerint]

Mag -- Keep in mind that Ani came out at a time when relatively few demonstrably anti-town events had occurred. When Elli came out, we'd already kind of been through that state of affairs, so people's reactions were different. At least, that's how I interpret the difference.

You're maybe missing that Ani's original claimed action wasn't "stalk" but "launder." This made no sense at all. She changed to "stalk" only after people had spent a few pages treating her prior claim with incredulity. If the Mod hadn't all but confirmed the "stalk" action, I might still view her circumstances with mild scrutiny.

I agree that DGB and evilsnail look bad, though it's possible DGB has yet to start playing her cards. I think your ciphers for Elli's alignment are based on misjudgments from reading the game late ala above.

No complaints about your town list. I think EK's reasoning in this game is weaker than in other games I've played with her (including Nouns mafia, where she thought I was scum until midway D2), though, and I think it may be deliberate, so I'm comparatively skeptical about her being town.

[Iecerint]

- Icerint. It started with #504, where Ice agrees with Ellibereth's kill list while noting that it's more open for scum manipulation. Icerint also mildly defends Ellibereth in #541. The reaction when the reasons for the mass killing not working don't ring true to me. When dramonic brings this up in #791, Icerint doesn't even fight it, but makes it a joke. Just rubs me the wrong way.

1. I agreed with Elli's list of scum-nonscum; I argued that the *plan* (e.g. making stalkers non-random) was more open for scum because scum could influence Elli'splan but not Adel's. (I still went for it, though.) Those are two separate entities.

2. I love Elli. I'd defend him again if necessary. There are other players I'd defend, too, but it's not really topical at the moment.

3A. First, I'd like to indicate that your earlier-stated list of reasons why the list won't work is incorrect on its own. The important pieces of the puzzle are Rob Grave being a free action and rez kits existing. All the others wouldn't break the system on their own. Your list is designed to indicate that there were many salient problems with the plan, but the problems on said list were not insurmountable.

3B. Dram's post wasn't really about what you're implying it was about. It was complaining about the high activity and claiming that the last 7 pages could have been expressed in 3. Since he was the millionth player in close succession to whine about the high activity level (i.e. his post was purely rhetorical in function), I called him out on it, indicating that he could have conceivably condensed the text to 3 pages by sharing his concerns with us. He followed up by indicating that he had been too far behind to do so. In retrospect, I think he made the post to respond to claims that his activity had recently dropped a bit.

[Iecerint]

And I don't think whether or not a player supported Elli's plan is a tell either way.

Given that scum can daytalk and they probably have at least 1 veteran of SA1, I would not be surprised if players' reaction to Elli's plan were indicative of something. Scum probably have guidance from at least 1 player who has insight into how the game might be structured and into what kinds of strategies may or may not be effective for town and/or scum.

That said, it's anyone's guess with regard to how what attitude(s) toward the plan should be interpreted as scummy AFAIK.

[Iecerint]

unvote; vote nicodemus

Why don't you want to vote me anymore? Cuz DGB says so?

You have at least as much information about my meta as Katy, so it can't be that.

[Iecerint]

Now you're just being childish.

Answer my question.

[Iecerint]

^ I agree with Phate. Hate to admit it. There's maybe a bit of misrepresentation of the cause of the fit, but I don't see a scum motive in that, really.

[Iecerint]

There's nothing "baiting" about that. You unvoted me without explanation in circumstances where none of your concerns about me had been addressed. The only new information about me since your last comment about me has been Katy's claim that this matches my town meta, which I've already indicated is unlikely to have accounted for your apparent change of heart. (She's probably thinking of the Newbie game we played in together; I wallposted over and over and over again, and her scumfriend DDD managed to use it against me. That mirrors my high post volume in this game, even if the posts aren't as lengthy here.) So I wanted an explanation from you.

Why is it scummy to ask someone why they unvoted them?

That's the 3rd time you've pushed the same misrepresentation of that quote. Even if you think my actual intent was bizarre or whatever, you could at least acknowledge that this is an old issue for the benefit of those playing along at home.

EK, I think you're a GREAT player, and not dumb at all. That's why I think you're likely scum in this game! I have a hard time believing that you would pursue some of the reasoning you have pursued unless you had an ulterior motive for doing so. That 4th quote you provided with the rhetorically-added emphasis provides 2 specific examples. Scum have to be a little bit dumb from time to time, particularly with their scumhunting -- hopefully in sneaky ways -- because they are coming up with total bull.

I will elucidate the secret scumtells as soon as I am able. If that doesn't satisfy you, I should point out that I also used secret scumtells as town in Kingdom Hearts mafia. It was against Cobalt after he transparently tried to get me to talk about an ongoing game under the pretense that he had forgotten that it existed.

[Iecerint]

What can I say? I like Katy. I'd do the same thing if it were DGB or tajo (or you, honestly, in any prior setting). Or other players, I'm sure. It's irrational, but I like playing with players I like. Also, keep in mind that SC's secret scumtell ended up being much weaker than I had at first perceived. (NB: That is NOT true of Phate's.)

Also, I asked Katy to replace into an impossible situation in Twilight mafia a few months ago and then hammered her within a page of her having done so after she'd read about 12 pages. (I was fakehammering her -- I didn't unvote -- but I neglected to explicitly let the Mod know about this.) I still feel really really awful about that, and that will probably cloud my judgment regarding her in the short term.

[Iecerint]

It's true that, contrary to the mistaken rhetoric surrounding the plan, failure to enact the plan makes Murderer a comparatively attractive win condition. That's compared to *with* the plan, I mean, rather than compared to winning as an Investigator.

P(Investiwin) > P(Murderer-NOPLAN) >>> P(Murderer-PLAN)

Whether that means that we should be worried specifically about Elli is a separate issue, though.

[Iecerint]

Could someone explain startransmission's meta to me? Is he DeathNote-tier?

[Iecerint]

Hmm. I suppose that's fine for now. On cursory inspection, it looks like it beats Nicky (e.g. with regard to treatment of ani):

Unvote; Vote: startransmission

...But I vaguely recall reading a game where he was lynched D1 on the basis of erratic behavior. I've never played with him before, though. I can't remember what his alignment was in that game....

[Iecerint]

Your activity this morning is what led me to originally ask about your meta. For example, first you indicated that you had no idea what was going on because you were behind, but then you said that I was obvscum. It would appear that failure to know what was going on would preclude your making an informed judgment about my alignment.

Your use of " " just above may imply that you were joking at the time (because it implies an unexpected development), but that's not how I read it this morning.

I think that we can now be certain of his [ani's] honesty. He's lied already, who's to say he's not lying again now?

This is the post that I used to differentiate you from Nicky. Whereas Nicky unvoted after ani's townhood was confirmed, you kept it up for one more round.

NB: I'm mentally placing this post after Percy's pseudo-confirmation, but I didn't check that.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: The quoted ST bit is 4 hours before Percy's error confirmation post. So I the Nicky-ST differentiation machine is gimped slightly.

[Iecerint]

[Nicky] promised at the end of his post to read and post something of substance. It's been over 24 hours from then. I would think town who had votes piling up on him would want to defend himself and find real scum. Instead he's disappeared and suddenly the votes are going another way. Hmm.

That is a decent point.

To the other, I think it depends on which subtle voter you're talking about.

[Iecerint]

Iece for going along with what I consider a pretty weak argument against me from DGB.

DGB made an argument against you? And I voted you because of it? The first I may just not recall. The second I am disputing, since I gave you an original explanation for my vote on you.

I could take either Nicky or ST. I would not want to lynch Elli, and I think that anyone who wants to lynch Elli, particularly in the short term, is, at least in that regard, scummy. I would not mind lynching Phate, but it doesn't look like that's too popular with anyone except ST, and I don't really know how to feel about that.

[Iecerint]

Hooray; now I can share Phate's secret scumtell with everyone --

Iecerint, on the other hand, is obvscum. Look at how he continues to deliberately post in an anti-town manner. This doesn't sync with my prior experience of Iecerint.

Phate's only prior experience with me was an ongoing game where we were both dead and I had flipped scum. I doubt he would forget this, because I lynched his playerslot D2 before I flipped N2.

[Iecerint]

That's even worse, then, Phate. You used rhetoric based on your "experience" with me when you had no idea of my alignment in the game in question. In other words, you intentionally provided invalid evidence to support a case.

Ani, why is that scummy on my part? The game just ended. Now I can specify what I noticed pages and pages ago.

[Iecerint]

That's your secret scumtell? Bullshit. Not buying it.

I'm totally confused by this. Are you disputing that that was my secret scumtell at all?

[Iecerint]

That's even worse, then, Phate. You used rhetoric based on your "experience" with me when you had no idea of my alignment in the game in question. In other words, you intentionally provided invalid evidence to support a case.

Ani, why is that scummy on my part? The game just ended. Now I can specify what I noticed pages and pages ago.

Experience is experience. If you do it once as scum, it becomes associated with you as scum. Now, provide me with an example of when you've done it as town.

You have it backwards. Phate was arguing that my play in this game was *different* from his experience with me, and that that was troubling. However, in his experience with me, I was scum. So if Phate is really amnesiac/lazy town, his argument implies that I am town, or at least trying a new scum meta.

I think it's at least as likely that scumPhate just wanted to add lazy fuel to my wagon and didn't bother thinking very carefully about the validity of his comments.

If you're asking for town meta (is that what you're asking? I'm not quite sure), glance through Kingdom Hearts mafia. That's my most recent town game that's finished, so it's probably the most reliable.

[Iecerint]

Phate, I think you're lying. These are the two posts I made immediately after your post we're discussing:

I would encourage you to review your prior experience with Iecerint.

NB: Secret scumtell on Phate.

Either you're not reading the posts by one of your prime scum suspects, you are reading-impaired, or you have almost certainly known what my secret scumtell was this entire time. I'm banking on the latter.

[Iecerint]

In my opinion he played very anti-town and posted excessively as town previously and this fits his town play.

I didn't know how to come off of you D2 without looking really sheepish in the process. It was a learning experience. Cut me some slack. At least my 2343 posts are shorter now.

[Iecerint]

EK was a goddess in Nouns mafia. She's not allowed to be sub-goddess this time around. Too much suspension of disbelief. Thinking she is scum is more parsimonious for now. (Not top-tier scum, but tentative scum.)

I have little to no difficulty thinking that Adel was town and you are scum. I did have some doubts about Adel very early in the game, but I changed my mind when he started developing his plan. That looked genuine to me. I also think Sly is somewhat more likely to be town than you. (Did you mean to say that you thought I thought you and Sly were the same alignment?)

[Iecerint]

Sly, you are in a unique position to speculate about the relevance or lackthereof of Phate's laziness/slip. Could you do that for me, please?

[Iecerint]

It's possible you may die before you can report the secret scumtell. It can also seem really random to bring something up from ages ago if there's no in-game basis for it.

Bonus point on Phate: There was a major wagon on me in said game D1. (I vaguely recall that Phate was suspicious of me most of D1, too, though I can't say for sure without checking.) My point is that I don't think a typical player would have replaced out and felt they had a good enough heuristic for my town play that they could use it as a tool in future games, certainly not without double-checking.

[Iecerint]

Hmm. I don't like rhetoric that leads players to nullify whole swaths of potential information. More DDD nightmares. But fair enough.

For what it's worth, I don't think I ever intentionally messed up any votecounts. I deliberately tried to swap Faraday's lynch for Phate's at the end of the day. I thought there was a relatively good chance that Faraday would investigate Pom. But I was too late to save poor, poor Faraday.

[Iecerint]

Nope, you already answered it. Then I evaluated your answer. As stated in my "irrelevant" post, I'm not crazy about it, because the rhetoric encourages us to nullify all of Phate's play from here to eternity.

You're awfully grouchy. I like you better when you're eating popcorn.

[Iecerint]

Ani, were you misreading something, or do you still think that explaining the secret scumtell is scummy for some reason?

(I just read my first 50 or so posts in iso, and I fail to see what everyone is whining about. I post a lot, but my posts are fine.)

Also -- I had Phate on SlySly's side of that drama from earlier in my head a few posts ago. His comment about me linking him with Adel now makes sense. However, contrary to what Phate indicated after his iso read, I indicate even in what I believe is my first allusion to them as a pair that I am relatively uncertain about Phate's play.

[Iecerint]

Phate, before you make a post in this game, please think carefully about whether your post will help town. People are trying to catch up! <3

This is the pathway to a town victory.

[Iecerint]

Iec's persistent support for your scum/murderer friendly plan...raised my suspicion about Iec...

Elli's plan makes it *harder* to win as a Murderer, not easier, because the number of days is drastically reduced by the genocide.

Scum can day talk. Under no circumstance should be the town be hand selecting people to participate in this. It'd be massively easy for the scum to manipulate a town suicide with this.

As someone else said, that rhetoric is like arguing that town shouldn't lynch because scum can influence lynches. It's true that the plan had problems that Sajin ultimately elucidated, but this wasn't a serious one.

The way Elli took all agreement to Adel's plan as agreement to his, and the way you tried to immediately assign scumminess to people who didn't immediately accept the plan -- these things made me feel rushed into acceptance.

Actually -- I noticed this again as I read back through my iso earlier -- my first allusions to the plan were very cautious. I encouraged continued discussion and asked Adel questions about the plan before I would support it. Myopic Xdar from EK.

Due to my experience with her, I believe EK to be a very competent player. I suspect Iecerint knows this as well and I find it very suspicious that he is treating her the way Phate treats people.

The reason for it is that I completely agree with you, and that is why she is suspicious. She is not her usual self.

[Iecerint]

I'm regretting how much fun I had with my wagon now. It had too many scum!

[Iecerint]

[Sly's] answer was something along the lines of "I was not talking about cult because I didn't think anyone else was either... the main argument seemed to be about him going murderer." Which I think is a misunderstanding of the argument, but it's an okay explanation to me.

The background probability that anyone is scum is identical, assuming roles were assigned randomly. The only variable we were discussing was the probability that dram would go murderer given that he was not scum. Hence, the main argument was about the probability that dram would go murderer.

[Iecerint]

Well, for one, there are quite literally more of us. So long as everyone contributes, average input into the shooter list will be town.

This doesn't have anything to do with scum manipulating us. A very unhelpful comment.

Of course it doesn't. The point is that "scum manipulating us" is bad rhetoric. The post provides one common-sense explanation for why this is the case.

As I said before, I like the suspicion of Iecerint. I especially agree about his non contribution. In my other game when I played with him I remember him being much more helpful.

I giggled a little.

[Iecerint]

I've used rhetoric like Nicky's as both town and scum. If I didn't police myself a little, I'd post just as much, but the posts would be twice as long. Ask SOG.

That said, I think it's accurate that players in general are more likely to use that rhetoric as scum.

Unvote; Revote: Nicodemus

. I am fairly ambivalent between him, Phate, ST, and EK tbh, but Phate and EK appear unfeasible at present. I could be persuaded to switch to ST later on, maybe.

[Iecerint]

Hayker won't post. He didn't as town in Kingdom Hearts, either. In fact, the only scumtell he utilized in that game was "players who think I am town."

Second @ Drench, though.

[Iecerint]

NB: EK had only voted Nicky for exactly 3 minutes.

I think his list is fine, even if it's a bit lazy and uninformative to us as they're all lurkers (except the Adel half of Hayker).

[Iecerint]

Ani, were you misreading something, or do you still think that explaining the secret scumtell is scummy for some reason?

Hi, Ani. <3

[Iecerint]

Neato. L-2.

[Iecerint]

^ That is nice, but we are on page 42. Maybe you should skim the whole game and then talk about more topical issues -- unless you think those early issues are particularly topical.

[Iecerint]

Some of the topics he's discussing have already been nullified by later events. It would be a more efficient use of his time to read the game first and then comment on a few favorite points later, maybe add a town/null/scum/wat list to summarize his impressions.

Also, he could realistically keep up with what he's doing well into D2 at that rate. Refer to raider, a town player who did rew-style page-by-page summaries that few players read for a LOOOONG time, for an example. Granted, rez is more of an expert at punctuation.

[Iecerint]

ALERT L-1 ALERT

[Iecerint]

Given that we have more planning to do, I suppose Nicky is probably scum.

OK, so it looks like Ani should rob his grave, and someone should ward her.

[Iecerint]

Amazing! CSL might be scum, too, regardless of Nicky's alignment!

[Iecerint]

WIFOM, Iecerint. I haven't been here much because I can't get a good re-read.

What have you got out of the 5-6 posts I have?

You were trying to hammer for cred and/or you were trying to hammer to end discussion. Either way, your head was in the wrong place at best.

I recall nothing of substance from your 5-6 posts, but I haven't iso'd you just now, either.

[Iecerint]

K, I've read you. Your only assertions are that at least one of Elli/Iec is scum (not impressive; you were just following rhetoric of the town as far as I can tell), and that Nicky is "lurkerscum." lol.

[Iecerint]

Ya. She didn't hear noise last night, so she's invincible so long as at least 1 player Wards her innit.

[Iecerint]

BTW: Only rez kit @ noise hearers who were not Ward targets obvs. Favor those who also did not Ward.

[Iecerint]

NB: Elli is a wardless noise-hearer. I'm not sure whether someone claimed him as ward-target later, but it would be nice if his CSL kill could get through IMO. Ideal rez target. FYI.

[Iecerint]

Murderers [as in "those who murder"] are confirmed non-scum.

[Iecerint]

We only need to even think about killing Elli when there's an unexplained murder N3 or later. In the meantime, having a confirmed non-scum around is nice.

But that's enough WIFOM for scum to deal with as they choose their target.

[Iecerint]

I use first-person plural all the time to communicate group plans, even if I'm not personally an agent involved in them. The fact that you were apparently serious about his "scumslip" is troubling. I thought you were joking.

[Iecerint]

^ Kingdom Hearts hit page 80 D1 IIRC. I think it might have been comparable at 14-days-to-deadline.

[Iecerint]

The town doesn't

collectively

NK in this game.

Keep dreaming of vigs <<

Town can murder. That is slow vigging.

[Iecerint]

@Eli- If your going to murder please take a NON CONFIRMABLE INSANITY. This way we can find out if your going higher up insanities later.

@all- I suggest searching something up that will be useful in the next couple of days. Ani does not really need to be warded and especially not by multiple people. If your not sure what to do, equip something, its very bad to gain an insanity and not be able to explain it so please do not default on laundering. Thank you.

Nonconfirmable...kk.

The hell? That's a totally terrible idea. Namely, there exist 5 non-confirmable insanities, which covers Stalk+Murder+Stalk+Murder+Stalk. If we can't catch him at the 5th insanity, it doesn't matter that we watch for ones that bubble over.

Meh. Whatever.

[Iecerint]

Ha, congratulations. I thought we had it.

I COULD NOT BELIEVE DGB WAS TOWN WHOA.

[Iecerint]

Huh? I never got a link to the dead QT.

Ah well.