Teleportation Mafia Universe ONE (MAFIA A WINS!)

[mykonian]

confirm

[mykonian]

I love Kairyuu! (seriously, that guy is a good lover) (reference to finished games)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 68#2079068

[mykonian]

Healthy competition between universes is good? JC, capitalism in mafia games, and it rings no alarm with anyone.

Seriously, what you are thinking about will do no good. Teleporters are no vigs. Esspecially since both towns are probably about equal in strenght, the teleportation is unlikely to get all the mafia out of one universe into the other without the other universe sending them back.

Randomly, the teleportation will have very little effect. We send and they send, and both towns will not benefit. Screwing them over will just screw us over too. Because we will be screwed: using this tactic it forces the towns to reread the other universe, it kills arguments based on scum-interactions, and the new player coming into this universe is forced to reread the whole game. A lot of information is lost, and all the mechanic does is confuse.

Plum is right: scumhunting will win the game. Town, by definition, wins by helping each other, playing together. In this game this is no different, even across universes. Please someone quote this in the other universe.

[mykonian]

the strategy I propose: (for clarity)

no teleportation. In case the other universe sends a player, teleport him back next night, that way restoring the universes. That player sadly would not be able to post in the other universe, but he would not have to worry about splitting his attention.

Further, no universe would have to worry about the amount of scum and scumteams.

The teleporter=vig strategy only works during endgame, where it is the last action made (winning or losing the game afterwards).

[mykonian]

extra information supporting this strategy:

if there is no teleportation, we have 4 mislynches. Added to this that there are 2 players that can be confirmed, the game seems to be balanced in favor of town: meaning that the mod expects something to work against the town. The mafia has no real powerrole that could cause this, so it must be the mechanic itself!

[mykonian]

Day 1 Vote Count

ace5993 ( 0 )
DrippingGoofball ( 0 )
elvis_knits ( 1 ) farside22
evilsnail ( 0 )
farside22 ( 1 ) gayle
fishythefish ( 2 ) evilsnail popsofctown
flareonage ( 1 ) fishythefish
gayle ( 0 )
infinis ( 0 )
mykonian ( 0 )
ojanen ( 0 )
plum ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 0 )
Raskol ( 0 )
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 10 ) ace5993 DrippingGoofball elvis_knits flareonage infinis mykonian ojanen plum Raskol Rhinox
Total Votes ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am

myko: The problem we are running across is the other universe (now known as U2....or OU) wants to send people they feel are scum in our direction. Their talks are using the teleportor to send scummy people our way. If we don't do the same in return we will have to still read the other game anyways and be bomard by people that were scummy in OU.

I know that this way, both universes will try to mess up the other universe, clearly not understanding that that universe will do the same back! This is why I wanted my post quoted on the other side: it is senseless to shove scummy players between the universes, it only makes both universes more likely to lose against town.

The problem you name could be solved by teleporting the player they sent back to them.

mykonian's proposed strategy is very antitown.

If the other town teleports people over here, and we only teleport people back reactively, we're going to end up with more scum/scummy players than them, and we are going to lose.

Pulling confirmed innos from the other universe gives us confirmed innos.

So, unilaterally saying we aren't going to use the mechanic is going to screw us over. Even if we got the other town to agree not to teleport, they wouldn't have any incentive not to break the deal. Even if we trusted them not to teleport as well, both towns are losing the confirmed innos that pulling gives us.

As for "the mod thinks the mechanic will hurt us", I think that the average game's PRs make the game easier for the town than a mountainous setup.

I totally agree that scumhunting is the way to win the game. I think that the best way we can exploit the mechanic is to ignore it during the day (at least for now). For our teleportation strategy, I've already given my thoughts. On teleporting (as opposed to pulling) nights, the teleporter may well often want to send back whoever the OU sent us.

vote: Flareonage

and

FoS: Plum

for buddying with an entire universe.

Shouldn't you be fighting scum, in stead of another universe? And I linked Kairyuus post that gives us a confirmed player: that is exploiting the mechanic in a town way. But if we let too many players switch universe, things might get very confusing, do we agree?

For the start of the game, could everybody answer this question:

what are your scumtells, when you are scum?

[mykonian]

What do you feel would be the point of having a town teleportor? Should they use their ability? Why or why not?

There is no point to the role. It is not a role that gives an advantage like the cop or the vig. This is because there is one on the other side too. This mechanic is most likely going to mess with our heads, and we don't want that. So I argued not to use them, but I don't think people are going to listen .

And yes, prisoners dillema, with the difference that by sending them back, we can neutralize their action.

[mykonian]

mykonian, your reasoning doesn't take into account the fact that exchanging scum with Universe 2 creates the possibility of a mafia cross-kill. This means that there is a real advantage to teleporting, assuming that the exchanges roughly even out otherwise.

The only real question, I think, is whether we direct the teleport or leave it up to teleporter.

Yay, cross kills! How often do those happen during the start of the game, and is the chance that mafia shoots each other worth the confusion? Is it worth the risk they may shoot an extra towny in this universe, etc?

And what PR is being directed from the start of the game? May I remember you that scum could influence it too then, for their own use? The teleporter is 100% town, lets keep the teleportation 100% town too.

Now, I wouldn't mind if some people answered my question I posted earlier:

what are your scumtells when you are scum?

[mykonian]

@Mykonian in U1: since you're against all teleporting between universes, how do you feel about the kairyuu's plan to have the teleporters claim? Is this beneficial to town, and to both universes?

Confirmed townies are cool. So yes, Kai already knows he is brilliant, I just confirm it.

[mykonian]

Since I feel absolutely no need for going into a RVS on this moment, could at least someone answer my question?

[mykonian]

Everything in blue is not related to hunting scum, and can be skipped, if you are short on time.

what are your scumtells when you are scum?

Oh come on this question sucks why should I share my scum tells to hurt me in other games?
I can already hear the people ready to lynch me for the above but telling people your scum tells does hurt you for other games.
idk I range with being quiet, lurky to talkative depending on the game. I do bus my scum partner on many occasions I can think of. I think I jump on cases just with a me too kind of post at times if I feel lost in a game and I don't know where else to go. I notice I don't try to motivate a game and I purposly miss things that are scum tells from my partner if I think they are safe from a lynch or being voted on.
Obviously my scum tell is on a wide range because acting the same in a game means people know you to be scum and use that meta against you.

Although I find your next post nice (you agree with me, finally, someone!), this one just gives me the creeps. If you would be town, there would be nothing to worry about. You could just tell your scumtells. Because acting antitown as towny to protect your scumplay is not done, and the way I know you, you also wouldn't lurk or do other scummy things to protect your scumplay. Then we get a series of scumtells that I know you would avoid if possible (jumping on a wagon with a "me too") and that you are often bussing seems to be a save thing to say as scum. Further, you keep it very general. I can't see someone who loves the game this much doing this as town.

FoS Farside

. But pluspoints for actually answering the question as first player.

Yay, cross kills! How often do those happen during the start of the game, and is the chance that mafia shoots each other worth the confusion? Is it worth the risk they may shoot an extra towny in this universe, etc?

If they shoot an extra townie in one universe, they shoot no townie in the other universe. So, on average, this balances out. A cross-kill, however, is unambiguously good for town.

confusion isn't. Is it worth it?

And what PR is being directed from the start of the game? May I remember you that scum could influence it too then, for their own use? The teleporter is 100% town, lets keep the teleportation 100% town too.

Well yeah, but the same is true of a lynch. I mean, probably leaving up to the teleporter is the way to go, since having to vote for it would be a hassle. But, in principle, it would buy us a lot of info.

You are a person to direct a vig, or a cop? didn't think so. This is because roles function better when not influenced, and when scum can not anticipate to them.

Gayle's answer is pretty null (sorry, didn't know you were a newby), and I like Fishy's post. Though I didn't ask him how he was as town. Because towntells are completely not interesting, and posting them is an ideal hiding place as scum.

On night actions, there is no sensible agreement we can come to - at some point it will be unilaterally broken.

I don't think we should expect cooperative agreements to be broken at all. That might be true if we were both static, monolithic organizations, but we aren't. We're a collection of individuals that may or may not remain on the side of the dimensional rift we're currently on.

Any townie teleporter that uses their actions to fuck over the other universe faces the very real possibility that they will be pulled over to the universe they just fucked over and have to live in their own mess. It seems that our best bet as individuals is to make sure that both towns do really well.

So for both towns, I think, self-interest will help us reach a cooperative solution, not hinder us. Whatever strategy we end up using, we should make sure it ends up being a net gain for both towns as a whole.

Teleporting scummy players to the other universe is a zero sum game, imo, that we should not be playing. A plan like Kairyuu's makes sense, I think, in that it gives both towns a slight advantage.

Vote raskol

You are basically repeating me, with better words. Seriously, the time you put in your first sentence could have been used to answer my question, and if you had read the thread, you would have noticed 3 players answered it by now. Further, hiding behind Kai is always easy. This was some useless strategy-talk-hiding. And I use that word because I don't want to say active lurking this early in the game.

There is really nothing I can say to defend myself from "Finding the strategy discussion irritating is scummy". I maintain that it is pointless to continue the strategy discussion.

While it is indeed not very usefull to find scum, since they can talk with it just as easily, it is important to think about the setup you are playing in. I hope we agree that it is important to find the best strategy for the town first, and then lynch?

I don't think you get what

I'm

saying, fish. I'm saying that, from the very beginning, it's in everyone's interests to make sure that both universes are really good places to be.

Lets state the obvious thing, please, making sure that it comes from

your

posts.

By post 147, Flareonage is seriously looking scummy, Pops is doing a great, though a little overaggressive job. I guess that is playstyle.

And far too many people are hiding behind Kairyuu. (now gayle and evilsnail)

And by post 153 pops is disappointing, again the lets kill the other side view on the game. Seriously, with the masons, 12-3 can be done. 4 mislynches! Lets not waste too much time on the mechanic and just hunt scum!

There are still a lot of players who I would like to tell their scumtells

And as a conclusion: Zoraster, you are seriously disappointing as a mod. Seriously, any strategy that comes up should have been thought about BEFORE the game was made. Changing rules during the game is not the way to go.

[mykonian]

Wut?

Someone is asking what my scumtells are (along with everyone else's?)

No way. Why should I tell scum what they should avoid doing?

This post feels... off. As farside22 points out, sharing scum tells is not anti-town. Even if it did help scum in some way, it also helps the town find scum.

FOS: DGB

QFT. DGB thinks, or acts like, she thinks it is about the methods she uses for finding scum. Pomegranate-scum used this avoidance too (only time I have seen the question in action before)

@DGB: for clarity, I was asking what would be the points that would get you caught as scum.

@Evilsnail: I am not going to answer my own question if nobody wants the answer.

It has been some time that I was scum. During my games a scum I now know I was easy to catch, but people haven't allways found out how. I used to fakeclaim pretty well, but exactly the care with which breadcrumbs were placed showed that I was scum. Also, the use of PBPA to attack someone was something I used to reduce pressure on myself, and sadly, with some succes. Although people have never caught this, I used to manipulate peoples stances gradually, which resulted in some interesting discussions The reason people went after me mostly was staying of the lynch-bandwagon, and sometimes arguing against it. But I have seen people lynch me for that regardless of my role


@Gayle: Against flareonage: He answers a question asked from Gayle, with the answer that the teleporter has to claim. Then, two minutes later he says he was wrong because the others would steal him!

Seriously, fla hasn't read the thread, read the rules, in general, he didn't care! There will be a new teleporter here (although Zor changed the rules), and the teleporter will be a confirmed towny there. On that moment the reason not to claim was to make a system work.

[mykonian]

pops, I have played one game with Flare where he feigned ignorance as scum. I rather have him trying to understand the game then hiding behind it.

Because I still like my vote on Rhinox, I won't vote DGB. But she is a very good second. Avoiding the 2/3 times. That must be a record. Now seen multiple answers, Farside is at least open about her motives (good).

[mykonian]

as far as I know by now the mod has reacted to every strategy by changing the rules so that it becomes impossible.

and yes I still have to check that. but it is almost midnight, and I don't feel like doing anything.

[mykonian]

I agree with DGB that mykonian's question is pointless and stupid. The sheer naivete it displays in him is townish, though, I think.

If it is so stupid you could of course give an answer. You have not missed it, and even want to make a point of it, but you are too lazy to simply answer it?

and you go on copying other peoples opinions, while I try to have scum answer a question they probably aren't very confortable with. I don't know about you, but I want scum to be as unconfortable as possible. I think you know, since you seem to have a certain hate for the question.

[mykonian]

what nonsense is it that scum wants to answer the question how they could be caught? If they don't want to answer it, they are forced to lie.

Again, I am not asking how people catch scum, I am asking how scum is caught. So it is not like scum can predict how you are searching. They can try to mask their own scumtells: but lets be honest, scum does that anyway. But the information it gives how people tell their scumtells is something we can use.

Wait, second question. Why are you arguing for people not to answer a question?

[mykonian]

wait, we are at the start of the game, I have asked a question, you are saying you caught scum by it, but it is useless?

unvote vote DGB

If you have a mindset where catching scum is pointless, you are scum. I am certain this was a major scumslip.

[mykonian]

Defensive theory in blue.

The question asks from everyone, and mostly from scum to list the tells they are concious about. Scum that is concious about certain tells is going to avoid them anyway, since he knows about them. Making them public, however, just increases the odds. Now everybody knows about them.

Plum stated that scum could work very long on making the perfect post. I believe that such differences can be read when analyzing the post, in any way, it is a difference. It may be a small one, but it could be a starting point for a case against that scum-player.

Answering the question for town has no negative consequenses for this game. Like some people have brought up, it could be that the same thing that happens to scum in this game could follow you to later games (

confirming that this would generally hurt scum

). Sorry about that, but if you have tells that you are concious about, it might be time to change your scumplay, and it has always been wrong to protect your scumplay as town.

So really, arguing that this question is antitown, like DGB tried to do, even after saying she caught scum with it is scummy. So is avoiding the question.

[mykonian]

I think you're hairsplitting the semantics. She thinks the question is dumb, and no one would answer it. But since someone did, she thinks that person is scummy. It's like saying "Who wants a massclaim" at the beginning of a newbie is a dumb question, because it is, but if someon was idiotic enough to answer the question you'd have caught scum.

which is why I try to argue that the question is not dumb. And on that moment, more then 3 people had already answered, starting with farside who DGB had in her townlist. Seriously, why are you defending her?

So really, arguing that this question is antitown, like DGB tried to do, even after saying she caught scum with it is scummy. So is avoiding the question.

I didn't say it was anti-town, I said (and I paraphrase and embellish liberally here) that it was a "time-wasting pit of stirred WIFOM."

Which doesn't mean that scum didn't take the time to apply themselves answering the question and should be lynched for their misguided effort.

What is wrong with WIFOM? Using it as an excuse not to answer a question or screaming WIFOM after someone makes an accusation are probably the worst use for it. If people for once took the time to analyze what it actually means...

[mykonian]

vote: Fish

For attacking Gayle on something I think makes Gayle more likely to be town than scum, but which might look like fuel for an easy bandwagon.

Which point of mine are you referring to here?

Added to this that this post by raskol was made just after he was accused of bringing little new, this is seriously scummy. Attacking fishy on something that you just found (but couldn't quote?) and which already sounds meh without a quote...

This is just trying to look town by "investigating" something new.

[mykonian]

"I've always found her very hard to read"? since January 23rd?

You are such an alt.

It is somewhere in MD/GD. Yes he is, but there is chance most of us don't know his main, it was quite old, I though. Before my time.

@Elvis: yes. I know. But what about DGB? I'll wait for the votecount, if you don't mind.

[mykonian]

I agree

vote raskol

You completely forgot what you did with fishy, and went for the next target, with a less then spectacular case. Where are you going to run next?

[mykonian]

mykonian---you sure you're not just mad I pointed out how dumb your question was?

If you really do think your point is a good one (frankly I'd think more of you if you were to admit you're just rage-voting but w/e) then let me ask you how switching my vote this early in the game is a scumtell. Care to enlighten me?

nope, not mad about that, because frankly, you only said it was pointless, but never argued the theory behind this statement (this is not an invitation, to me you have made your point clear that you are not going to answer it for whatever reason)

To the point, because the above is only an introduction to your play that you try to hide, somebody (I forgot who) called you on not having placed a vote. Suddenly you vote Fishy for a wishy-washy point, without quote. I find you suspicious for this, and post that. Elvis agrees, and you have completely missed that point seen the above post where you strawman me by saying the question is the only post of the case.

But suddenly, without ever mentioning Fishy and your "case" on him, you switch for another interesting target, this time on the accusation that Elvis said she thinks DGB scum, but then again some points are in DGB's favor. That seems like analysis to me, but you vote her for it.

It is not placing multiple votes, it is making bad cases, and avoiding responsibility as soon as people post they were bad (as with your fishy case)

[mykonian]

To the point, because the above is only an introduction to your play that you try to hide, somebody (I forgot who) called you on not having placed a vote. Suddenly you vote Fishy for a wishy-washy point, without quote. I find you suspicious for this, and post that. Elvis agrees, and you have completely missed that point seen the above post where you strawman me by saying the question is the only post of the case.

But suddenly, without ever mentioning Fishy and your "case" on him, you switch for another interesting target, this time on the accusation that Elvis said she thinks DGB scum, but then again some points are in DGB's favor. That seems like analysis to me, but you vote her for it.

It is not placing multiple votes, it is making bad cases, and avoiding responsibility as soon as people post they were bad (as with your fishy case)

You're either stupid, lazy, or both if you can't figure out what I was attacking fishy over.

I specifically stated my reasons in my post voting for fishy, and when he asked what I meant I pointed it out before I switched my vote. I'm not backing off, I still find fishy scummy. I just find ek scummier and I put my vote where it does best.

And if you can seriously call ek's wafflefest about dgb 'analysis' then I guess I have a reference point for your standards.

vote: Fish

For attacking Gayle on something I think makes Gayle more likely to be town than scum, but which might look like fuel for an easy bandwagon.

I don't think you should be namecalling if this is your argument, dear Raskol. Am I wrong when I say

you

are the one lazy here? This is a wishy washy reason, without quote, and this with later a

postnumber

is everything you say about fishy.

Seriously, analyze this (stupid, pointless, rubbish) argument. Fishy attacked someone for something that

might

seem a good point, but actually, as you see it shows that someone is town.

Seriously, that is not a clear point, that is a (stupid, pointless, rubbish) attack.


And now your GREAT Elvis vote. Your next hideout. Someone names on the pro's and cons of a player and then it is a "wafflefest". Raskol, you are very good at using great insulting words, but what are they doing else but hiding you have

nothing to say?

. You are only changing your play because someone said you didn't do a thing but copying people, and you simply are not capable of making a good case here. You simply latch on to the first thing you can find, if this is someone unsure about another player, or fishy attacking someone for a point that might seem good but actually isn't.

Raskol, you are scum that has the problem that he can't find townies to attack savely.

[mykonian]

Raskol seems genuinely cranky in a townie way.

If you let away every scum that insults the players attacking him,

but doesn't actually defend

, you are making this game way too easy. It is site-meta that people showing emotion (be this aggression or anger) are towny. This is known, but easily abused.

[mykonian]

Day 1 Vote Count

ace5993 ( 0 )
DrippingGoofball ( 2 ) plum popsofctown
elvis_knits ( 3 ) Raskol Albert B. Rampage farside22
evilsnail ( 1 ) DrippingGoofball
farside22 ( 1 ) gayle
fishythefish ( 0 )
flareonage ( 0 )
gayle ( 1 ) fishythefish
Albert B. Rampage ( 0 )
mykonian ( 1 ) Rhinox
ojanen ( 0 )
plum ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 1 ) flareonage
Raskol ( 4 ) evilsnail ojanen elvis_knits mykonian
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 1 ) ace5993
Total Votes ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am

what are your scumtells, when you are scum?

I don't have any

Thank you very much.

Screw your other games, does answering the question help or hurt this game? If it helps, answer it. If it doesn't, don't. Why did you answer the question? I personally don't see how this question helps this game at all. It creates lots of wifom later on.

If you can't handle WIFOM you are a terrible scumhunter. There is nothing only townies do because such an absolute towntell would be copied by scum, etc. WIFOM, whether you like it or not, is information.

Wut?

Someone is asking what my scumtells are (along with everyone else's?)

No way. Why should I tell scum what they should avoid doing?

This post feels... off. As farside22 points out, sharing scum tells is not anti-town. Even if it did help scum in some way, it also helps the town find scum.

FOS: DGB

How so? I don't think it does.

I am sure I have made at least one lenghty post about this: please read it. It is probably in blue. Don't ask if the answer is already there.

pops, I have played one game with Flare where he feigned ignorance as scum. I rather have him trying to understand the game then hiding behind it.

Because I still like my vote on Rhinox, I won't vote DGB. But she is a very good second. Avoiding the 2/3 times. That must be a record. Now seen multiple answers, Farside is at least open about her motives (good).

lol not that I care that I have any votes on me, but what have I done or not done that makes you like your vote on me? I was V/LA until my first post in the game and I was just finally able to read the thread and catch up in this game as of this post. Check my activity across the site if you don't believe me and I believe you know I was just prodded in another game so....

I am sorry rhinox, but if you hadn't CTRL-F'ed your name, you would have noticed I was on that moment voting Raskol. I have mixed your names up here. And as you can see, my raskol case hasn't been forgotten by me. The later accusation that I switched for DGB was indeed DGB's scumslip where she showed finding scum wasn't her primary interest. I hope this explains enough

This makes the rest of the post somewhat awkward though, since there is some aggressive "we should lynch myko stuff" and calling me a hypocrit for not using previous cases while I return my vote to my previous suspect.

One question still remains. Why is 90% of Rhinox's catch up post about someone who he thought voted him, and not in a positive way?

[mykonian]

@ the other universe

. Jack is trying to be smart and manipulative.

Town doesn't manipulate. Jack is scum.

[mykonian]

I agree

vote raskol

You completely forgot what you did with fishy, and went for the next target, with a less then spectacular case. Where are you going to run next?

I completely agree with Rhinox. Mykonian is just as guilty of what he is accusing Raskol of doing.

@Mykonian: Why did you ignore that point of Rhinox's argument? It seemed like the most important point to me

It was his most important argument. However, it is sadly based on a miscommunication. I have voted raskol, and after that claimed I was still voting

Rhinox

. I never actually did. And I did answer that previously.

I made that mistake, but Rhinox, you are very aggressive on this point, I would expect people to check their cases. But you did CTRL-F your name, right? (not a tell, just confirming my way of thinking)

Tell me, how does knowing what everyone says is their scumtell going to help you find scum in this game?

Dude, I answered this question in detail on the last page.

myko asked the question. I want to hear his answer.

Defensive theory in blue.

The question asks from everyone, and mostly from scum to list the tells they are concious about. Scum that is concious about certain tells is going to avoid them anyway, since he knows about them. Making them public, however, just increases the odds. Now everybody knows about them.

Plum stated that scum could work very long on making the perfect post. I believe that such differences can be read when analyzing the post, in any way, it is a difference. It may be a small one, but it could be a starting point for a case against that scum-player.

Answering the question for town has no negative consequenses for this game. Like some people have brought up, it could be that the same thing that happens to scum in this game could follow you to later games (

confirming that this would generally hurt scum

). Sorry about that, but if you have tells that you are concious about, it might be time to change your scumplay, and it has always been wrong to protect your scumplay as town.

So really, arguing that this question is antitown, like DGB tried to do, even after saying she caught scum with it is scummy. So is avoiding the question.

I also want to know why myko refused to provide an answer to his own question as well.

On the question from Evilsnail why I didn't answer the question myself, I answered:

@Evilsnail: I am not going to answer my own question if nobody wants the answer.

It has been some time that I was scum. During my games a scum I now know I was easy to catch, but people haven't allways found out how. I used to fakeclaim pretty well, but exactly the care with which breadcrumbs were placed showed that I was scum. Also, the use of PBPA to attack someone was something I used to reduce pressure on myself, and sadly, with some succes. Although people have never caught this, I used to manipulate peoples stances gradually, which resulted in some interesting discussions The reason people went after me mostly was staying of the lynch-bandwagon, and sometimes arguing against it. But I have seen people lynch me for that regardless of my role

= explanation why I didn't give the answer before, and the answer because it was clear at least evilsnail wanted the answer. (posting something that nobody is going to read or use is filling the thread, so I waited for someone to ask me)

Rhinox, lets put it in another way: I think you need another (re)read. Stop using me for it by asking questions that have already been asked. And if you want me to help you with your "reread", don't insult me.

[mykonian]

If you are obviously going

out of your way

to avoid it (how this is caught obviously depends on the tell), you basically answered your own question: you care too much about avoiding your scumtells (you don't have to worry about that as town), so in that way, it adds pressure to the scums play. They are forced also to stay away from their tells. Which makes scumplay harder (as "normal" scumhunting is still possible on scum, this just adds something extra), but town play stays just as easy. That is the benefit.

If you commit it later in the game: you are going to be questioned about this, maybe resulting in a vote. Here is makes discussion more factual (you did this, it may be a scumtell./ you did this, you say it is your scumtell (is more definite). This aids constructive discussion. (basically because the answer gives extra information)

conclusion: it gives information (how it is used is the players choice, like with any information), and adds pressure to the scum's play.

But seriously, how are you going to accuse anyone of being scum because they asked a question? Questions per definition give information. This question in particular had the intention to go from strategy talk to scumhunting, by asking about the information that is already there at the start of the game (the playstyles of the players).

[mykonian]

RED: calling for a myko lynch, arguing for a myko lynch etc.
BLUE: stuff related to the question, which from this post is clear Rhinox dislikes, and is part of the argument against myko (lynch the person asking it)

90% is not so far off if you believe a lot of your question-related talk was showing how rubbish it is (and how the player that made it should be lynched)

what are your scumtells, when you are scum?

I don't have any

what are your scumtells when you are scum?

Oh come on this question sucks why should I share my scum tells to hurt me in other games?
I can already hear the people ready to lynch me for the above but telling people your scum tells does hurt you for other games.
idk I range with being quiet, lurky to talkative depending on the game. I do bus my scum partner on many occasions I can think of. I think I jump on cases just with a me too kind of post at times if I feel lost in a game and I don't know where else to go. I notice I don't try to motivate a game and I purposly miss things that are scum tells from my partner if I think they are safe from a lynch or being voted on.
Obviously my scum tell is on a wide range because acting the same in a game means people know you to be scum and use that meta against you.

Screw your other games, does answering the question help or hurt this game? If it helps, answer it. If it doesn't, don't. Why did you answer the question?

I personally don't see how this question helps this game at all. It creates lots of wifom later on.

I don't read it that way at all. He is asking how you act as scum. Not everyone acts the same and people can use it as a reference instead of using the word meta argument.
I just hate it because I never like talking about my scum actions. Never. It's something I hold dear to my heart and don't want to share with the MS world (who do read games and look back on things to the nth degree) signs that I'm scum for later games.

Again, so why did you answer it?

Wut?

Someone is asking what my scumtells are (along with everyone else's?)

No way. Why should I tell scum what they should avoid doing?

This post feels... off. As farside22 points out, sharing scum tells is not anti-town. Even if it did help scum in some way, it also helps the town find scum.

FOS: DGB

How so? I don't think it does.

pops, I have played one game with Flare where he feigned ignorance as scum. I rather have him trying to understand the game then hiding behind it.

Because I still like my vote on Rhinox, I won't vote DGB. But she is a very good second. Avoiding the 2/3 times. That must be a record. Now seen multiple answers, Farside is at least open about her motives (good).

lol not that I care that I have any votes on me, but what have I done or not done that makes you like your vote on me? I was V/LA until my first post in the game and I was just finally able to read the thread and catch up in this game as of this post. Check my activity across the site if you don't believe me and I believe you know I was just prodded in another game so....

Then less than 24hours later you do switch your vote to DGB for what you call a major scumtell but meh... I think you were fencesitting on DGB before and using your vote on me as an excuse to not vote DGB then... so do you view DGB as a threat to scum or something and you want to try to lynch her?

You know who'd be eager to give a list of scumtells?

5KuMz

That's who.

We should lynch everyone that answered.

This except lynch the person who asked the question first.

How is it WIFOM?

I can say that when I'm town, I write in green text, but when I'm scum, I write in red text.

So I'll make all my posts green.

Am I scum? The answer is WIFOM.

thisthisthis!!

I agree

vote raskol

You completely forgot what you did with fishy, and went for the next target, with a less then spectacular case. Where are you going to run next?

hypocrite. you seem to have very quickly and easily forgotten what you liked about your vote on me. you're even on to your second suspect since me before I even posted to give you a reason to dislike your vote.

vote myko

for everything I said in this post

If you didn't read the post, too bad, I don't feel like giving you a tl;dr right now. Caught up now and hopefully will be able to keep up.

TO BOTH UNI's: This might go without saying, but in an ideal world, shouldn't we be scum hunting in the OU as well? since we'll be getting some of their players at some point, good to know what we're getting ahead of time. Also, if we help the OU kill their scum, it means we're less likely to get stuck with them over here. Just a thought I'm certainly not leading the charge right now

Rhinox: what makes me so important to you that your post (to put it in a different way) is pretty much focused on me?

[mykonian]

for once, he is right, Elvis. You are not helping. Esspecially it only shows again you focus on gayle-town bad wagon, raskol-scum good wagon. From this assumptions you reason, and this list is your conclusion: I think you don't have used enough input, and when you do have enough, cases on people function better.

We know DGB it is not the first time DGB is wacky. Why did you mention this?

[mykonian]

I post my reads, and I am not helping?

WTF

Did you read the post entirely? Posting lists like these show scum who is percieved towniest: you don't want that.

[mykonian]

Note that I didn't call it scummy. I believed it to be antitown, but I never saw it this way.

DGB, wouldn't it be better to keep this quiet until scum attacks a player perceived towny, after which town reaction makes scum having a hard time talking himself out of it? This in stead of showing scum who they can attack?

[mykonian]

Wow, I'm not done with the 12th page yet, and I go to this page, and see that. That's one of the biggest slips I have seen in my life!

Vote: mykonian

Since there are multiple people talking about this. I honestly don't know why I typed town, could be because I was arguing it would make town lose, or just because I was tired. I have honestly no idea.

But this isn't a scumslip, this is just an incorrect sentence. I can't see how this is a scumslip. The whole argument is to make both towns play strategically better. A scumslip would show I have no interest in making the town play better. But I do!

But I understand typo's where town and scum are exchanged look very bad, so I want this talked out before we go further. Since there are multiple people talking about this there are townies believing this is a scumslip and I don't see it. Could you explain to me what it is?

[mykonian]

For me, it's very simple; it looks like your real win condition came into your head as you justified what the right move was, when you meant to type your supposed win condition.

damn. I see what you could see in that sentence.

But the whole warning was indeed to argue for the right move for town, so even if I was scum, I would have been arguing for town. The scum-wincondition is not related to it in any way (scum would benefit from confusion), so really, this was just a typo, seen the way it doesn't fit in the point I'm making.

But I guess I should read my own posts before posting to avoid this. Sorry.

[mykonian]

and I wasn't tired, I checked the post time, and it was just after dinner

[mykonian]

For me, it is and will remain a significant point against you,

I know it will be. Esspecially since slips are very strong evidence, it will be remembered. So every next argument against me will end with: and he had the slip.

Unfortunate is an understatement. People will now read every point as if I'm trying to manipulate them.

[mykonian]

But this isn't a scumslip, this is just an incorrect sentence. I can't see how this is a scumslip. The whole argument is to make both towns play strategically better. A scumslip would show I have no interest in making the town play better. But I do!

Haha, I see you have your bases covered to make it look like what you decided to frame as a scumslip from me, is worse that your own

bona fide

scumslip!

DIE SCUM

I didn't see how it could be percieved as a slip, sorry. I find it slightly amusing that you call you are framed, while I am making a slip in stead of a mistake.

@Elvis. I am sure I have already typed this up multiple times, but here we go again.

Teleporting people makes the game confusing because the new player in this universe would have to read up the game. The universe would have to read the other universes game to learn the allignment of the player. Like the whole game has to be partially replaced on the start of day 2, if that makes it clearer. Let this happen over multiple nights and I forsee that the town either goes into massive lurking because they can't read everything, or they don't read it and still post, which will result in a lot of bad reads. I believe that the mechanic indeed doesn't help the town until endgame.

Esspecially the plans to use the vig as a sort of vig (sending the scum to the other universe), is bound to fail since they would do the same. Sure, we could win if we are more effective, leaving them with the rest of the scum. However, the same could happen to us, but more likely, since both towns are not that different, we would just mess up both games.

So again, why is it percieved to be antitown to argue for a 12-3 game with 2 confirmable roles? I have enough confidence we'll win that, like said by others, by simple and decent scumhunting.

[mykonian]

@Docpotter: posts 220 and 224 show how Jack takes a quote, and in then makes it so that the person is essentially arguing against himself. He reasons logically from the quote to get to something untrue in Elmo's case, and actually attacks Fghtwas with it.

Since both players obviously didn't intent for their words to be used this way, Jack is strawmanning. He tries to be smarter then the rest of the game by logically deriving the others are wrong, from their own words.

and sorry, Elvis, the answer was still on notepad. I forgot when I had to defend. And I'll hate the person who can twist this in being scummy.

Blue is theory again.

@ myko, why did you pitch a fit when I posted my reads, but said nothing when DGB posted her reads?

I think DGB is scum, and I told you I wouldn't have done that because it was sub-optimal town play. It is of little use to say that to someone that is scum.

DGB, wouldn't it be better to keep this quiet until scum attacks a player perceived towny, after which town reaction makes scum having a hard time talking himself out of it? This in stead of showing scum who they can attack?

You're not trying to change the way I always play, are you???

I ask you why your way is better then letting scum attack someone percieved town and then catch him on that? You seem to think so, I want your reason. But leave this question, Elvis answered.

Note that I didn't call it scummy. I believed it to be antitown, but I never saw it this way.

DGB, wouldn't it be better to keep this quiet until scum attacks a player perceived towny, after which town reaction makes scum having a hard time talking himself out of it? This in stead of showing scum who they can attack?

That assumes that the town has secretly agreed on who is town. There's no way for that to happen, it would make it easier for scum to attack players. DGB's suggestion made much more sense

Unvote

VOTE: Mykonian

see the question mark? I propose another theory, indeed assuming that town who think the same (well, should), somewhat agree on who is obviously town. You think this assumption is wrong: how is it scummy?

Shouldn't you be fighting scum, in stead of another universe? And I linked Kairyuus post that gives us a confirmed player: that is exploiting the mechanic in a town way.

But if we let too many players switch universe, things might get very confusing, do we agree?

Is this a subtle argument against a proposed way of dealing with the mechanic while trying to look like he's behind it? This doen't look like an "Oh, I like it except couldn't it go bad if X", it looks like "wow, awesome way to do it, we could totally exploit this in favor of the Town . . . but I'm sure it's not as convenient as it looks. I'm sure you all agree!" It's the

pandering

of the tone while subtly trying to dissuade from a plan of action for no good or adequately explained reason (seriously, dude, about as many people are going to be switching places whatever strategy we follow) that makes my stomach turn. I've just successfully erased - reversed a vibe on the guy.

Kai's strategy was to create a confirmed towny by letting the claimed teleporters change play on that moment. These then had to be killed by the scum. (this later proved to be an impossible tactic because of the rules)

There was also talking about sending scummy players to the other universe. These stay in the game, are not confirmed scum or town, etc: these confuse.

So while I argued that we shouldn't do that, the plan to create confirmed townies was good. I argued against sending scummy players, but in favor using Kai's idea to make confirmed townies.

Unvote; Vote: Mykonian

. In fact, I'm still trying to figure out what Myko's proposed strategy

was

. Oh, no Teleportation . . . and then this sort of half-assed endorsement/denouncement of Kairyuu's pull-the-Teleporters plan. And even though he's against all Teleporting, when asked he endorses Kai's plan. How how how the hell does that work, may I ask?

It doesn't work. We thought it did on that moment. And I was fully in favor of it, seen previous quote. So nothing half assed, and I am against teleporting scummy players between the universes. This tactic solves nothing (on average just as many get send here as are send there), but does create confusion.

This is why I wanted my post quoted on the other side: it is senseless to shove scummy players between the universes,

it only makes both universes more likely to lose against town.

Care to explain what you meant by the bolded, Myko?

Sure. I used the wrong word. They are more likely to lose against scum, when scummy players get send between the universes. Sorry. Seen my other posts, I hope the message came through.

And now after having found that evil of Myk's above I'm wondering if Myk's BS "major scumslip" of DGB's he's so certain of is really scummy and not just totally clueless (honestly, I may have excused it before partly due to a sort of too-scummy-to-be-scum feeling . . . but I;ve seen scumbags make out totally fake scumtells and ascribe greater certainty to their flawed logic than a sane townie ever would).

there is a suspicion I could be scum and suddenly everything I say is invalid. Plum, simple solution: look at the point itself and see if you agree it is a point against DGB. It is that way always: you look at what other people say and see how much you yourself agree with it.

[mykonian]

for once, he is right, Elvis. You are not helping. Esspecially it only shows again you focus on gayle-town bad wagon, raskol-scum good wagon. From this assumptions you reason, and this list is your conclusion: I think you don't have used enough input, and when you do have enough, cases on people function better.

We know DGB it is not the first time DGB is wacky. Why did you mention this?

Wait, this post answers itself, Elvis. First, I am not thinking you are scum, but point you the way I would prefer your posts to be: More input, and divided into cases on people. Not a list which mostly gives this info: you assume gayle to be town and raskol to be scum, and you reason other allignments from there.

Not that I mind your questions, but please, we are only filling the thread this way. And I wouldn't mind either if you answered my questions.

[mykonian]

I am not sure what you mean by doing cartwheels, but "annoyed" is the word you should have used. And I know it is asked too much from you to call me town

[mykonian]

Gayle, look at who said it: DGB has thought me scum for quite some time. It isn't that weird for her to call her new bystander (who found what a lot of people read over) town. Can't say I disagree, though plum doesn't post enough yet.

And it seems to happen when the last post of a page is posted. The new page is then already shown, while there are no posts for it yet.

[mykonian]

Plum asked the question, gayle... Investigation is towny. CSL just hopped on, DGB used it to finally follow her suspicion with a vote. Pop's could be right, because this is pretty much target practice for scum.

CSL is far from beautiful.
DGB was lucky enough to finally get the person she wanted. Those would be my prime suspects on the wagon.

Fishy's approach was quite towny, I think. He questioned the situation, analyzed it, and then gave the possible reasons, with likelyness of me being scum. I see you had a good IC, fishy

[mykonian]

@ Gayle: I did not follow Plum. I found it on my own. However, Plum (and whoever else voted myko) already posted the "slip" and wuoting the post might not have done any good.

And yeah, Gayle, I keep getting that stupid error. It needs to die.

@ Pops: I hope that was a joke, because you can see the roles on the first page...

You seem to be missing two points.

Pops says the tell is probably an insignificant mistake, why did you ignore this, but did ask the obvious question if introduction was a joke?

Gayle accuses you of bandwagonning. You answer that quoting wouldn't have done any good. How does this in any way defend you?

Why are you both times avoiding the point of the post, and diverting attention to the insignificant part (the site-problem and the joke-introduction by Pops)

[mykonian]

wait a minute. not so fast.

First, ABR says something reasonable. Later, when town gets in a tight spot, using the teleporter as a vig is becoming more important.

CSL: Bullshit. First it was the most important thing in the whole game. Now, you haven't answered my questions, you don't explain at all why quoting would have made it worse, you don't respond to accusations from Gayle, and above all, you UNVOTE.

DGB: Oh, he lurks, we know that. You have been disagreeing with me from the start of the game. If someone was going to stay on me for the rest of the game, it would have been you. Why ABR? (apart from the weird claimed powerroles part, that could be a minor tell, I suppose)

[mykonian]

why did I bother asking...

Is it a concious thing, trying to be unreadable?

[mykonian]

no, because you don't answer me why you did it. You give no information, just tell me took take you as you are. My question is if you are doing this on purpose.

[mykonian]

I'd earlier switch to CSL. But I like the case on Raskol still even better. Further it is not very smart to follow you, because although I forget some things, I won't forget how you handled my question.

[mykonian]

Now I'm back to being sketchy on your alignment. CSL? Raskol? Yeah, maybe Raskol. Your reluctance for vote for a lurkerscum like ABR is jarring, given your willingness to vote CSL, whose case is, if I recall correctly, a policy lynch for lurking.

THAT is inconsistent in a scummy way.

unvote, vote: mykonian

That case on CSL (the policy lurking one) was sadly by someone else. I was the one who didn't like the way he bandwagonned, after that refused to answer when his actions were questioned, and talked in stead about the things of those posts that didn't matter.

And after the recent posts: Is lurking a tell that works on ABR-scum often? If it is his meta, I can see the argument more easily, but seen your and his posts, something personal is dragged into this game.

[mykonian]

Sorry, Raskol already answered the question.

[mykonian]

I think CSL might require a policy lynch. He posts very briefly for the entirety of any games he plays.

Here it is. Pops it was.

BTW: if there really is a problem between DGB and ABR, maybe it would be wise to teleport one of them. Sure, I'm against the confusion it would give, but:

a. it is day 1. It would maybe force only 20 pages of reading.
b. the problems between them might cloud their vision, drag the town into a fight that could have little to do with scumhunting, and in general it would create a distraction for the town.

Placing these two in seperate universes would solve the problem without using a costly lynch for it. If one is scum, that person would lose his/her target, and would have to think of something new.

[mykonian]

@docpotter. I know I have too much time on my hands, I don't know how this is for the whole game, and if I see how some replacements in other games are having trouble to reread, I fear for the worst if we teleport without real benefit.

[mykonian]

BTW: if there really is a problem between DGB and ABR, maybe it would be wise to teleport one of them. Sure, I'm against the confusion it would give, but:

[...]
b. the problems between them might cloud their vision, drag the town into a fight that could have little to do with scumhunting, and in general it would create a distraction for the town.

OMG

mykonian just confessed scum with ABR.

So. Which one are we lynching first?

I know you would say this. But DGB, please follow my way of thought.

You said ABR wouldn't post because he knew you would be all over him.
He is not his active leading town self, as others have said, he is more lurking then normal.
Now look at this from the point of view (and I know this is hard for you), where don't know your allignments. I fear you limit ABR's scumhunting, and ABR clouds your vision. If ABR is scum, that problem is removed for you anyway (or you would go to the other universe, or he would be send there).

This is all because I don't see this problem being solved by a lynch, since there are better (and seen the votes, more popular) bandwagons.


Fishy is clearly not one of them. Townies mess up too, sometimes. I have no interest in that wagon.

[mykonian]

@ mykonian

Enjoy the roller coaster ride.

I think CSL might require a policy lynch. He posts very briefly for the entirety of any games he plays.

Not familiar with ABR's play. I wouldn't call someone "lurkerscum" unless they lurk and additionally have shown a scumtell. Where's the scumtell on Albert?

Meta - I believe him to be keeping a low profile because if he doesn't he knows I'll be all over him like a pit bull on a ham bone.

In addition, he's clearly not paying attention to anything. So, keeping a low profile and not paying attention = scum. His buddies should hurry up and give him some content to parrot to help him look like he's reading the game.

I took the bolded part as regardless of allignment.

And if you for once read my posts completely, you'd see that I said that a lynch would solve the problem too, but that I have doubts that ABR will be the lynch.

since teleportation takes place after the lynch, saying it is probably better you are divided has nothing to do with who we lynch, how we lynch or whatever.

And seen his post, he feared you would be on him regardless of what he did. This might not be intentional, but if this is true, it wouldn't help your scumhunting, would it, DGB.

DGB, it is so easy to make me look like scum who is stopping your scumhunting. Like teleportation would keep ABR save today. You linked me to ABR, as if I were defending him. ABR, your who was your easy target anyway. Now, with this conspiracy posted, you have another way to call me scum.

First I was scum trying to look town with a question. Now I'm scum for trying to keep two people who clearly have no way of constructively playing with each other out of each other by arguing for placing them in different universes. Come on DGB, you can't make me seem scum with everything I do. What's next?

[mykonian]

1. Seen the votecount, the interest in my lynch, elvis's, Raskols.

2. His "you are just as bad as adel" was not a defense, but a complaint. He didn't bother to defend.

3. Defending is probably the better word.

4. I will. No talk about night actions prohibits a lynch.

5. It is clear that it is normal for you two to be over each other. So it is almost expected from you to vote him and call him scum.

6. Please tell me how I can miss it.

I am shocked by the vote...not. You and Adel are really the same.

This was his post after your vote on him. He doesn't defend, only suggest this is the same thing over and over again. Sounds a lot like a personal problem to me.


DGB, I find it funny how you try to talk this into a conspiracy. First, albert must be scum, then, before the game, he must have communicated what you were going to do, but he didn't take actions to prohibit it. In stead, he asked his scumbuddy to ask for a teleportation after you would vote him. Seriously, this is reaching.

unvote vote DGB

Fabricating evidence, no matter how weird you play, is not town.

[mykonian]

@fwaslskgas

uhm, no. I never get myself lynched as town. That scum will attack me is great. Let them. We all know what that mistake means, and people react to it. People will react to it day 2, day 3. etc.

Scum will have to handle me in some way, and I sure am not going to make it easy for them. Since the mistake happened so far from lylo, this is not yet a problem. But scum can't keep me around till lylo, and then suddenly come up with the mistake again. They have to find some way to keep pressure on me.

I'm as an antitown player. Every scum would know that Zwet could be mislynched, but how to do it savely was the problem. Everybody knew scum was going to try it. The difference between zwet and me is that I do try to defend, and scumhunt for the whole time I'm here. So no, I'm not giving up so easily because I typed something wrong. I'm going to hurt scum before I go. They would have wished they nightkilled me.

[mykonian]

EBWOP, fixing quote tags.

DGB, I find it funny how you try to talk this into a conspiracy. First, albert must be scum, then, before the game, he must have communicated what you were going to do, but he didn't take actions to prohibit it. In stead, he asked his scumbuddy to ask for a teleportation after you would vote him. Seriously, this is reaching.

HOLY MOTHER OF ALL MISREPS

No. What I said was that Albert joined the game knowing who was playing in it. He replaced in, received a scum PM. Then in your QT started to bitch about personal issues that (1) don't exist beyond my hating being scum with ABR and (2) am I totally able to be fair and un-biased especially since I'm town. In any event it's clear that the two of you are communicating information outside the game and you are not masons. You are scumz.

I am glad that you "never get [your]self lynched as town" because you are now getting lynched as scum.

Great you finally post your full conspiracy, then I don't have to guess. (1)Seen ABR's quote (above), this is not limited to roles.
(2) nobody ever is fair in this game. Just see the amounts of mislynches, everytime something went wrong. Nobody's perfect.

DGB, this is where you are clearly framing me. I don't need a QT to see that ABR doesn't care about your attack, since nothing would help. I don't need a QT to see that you tell that ABR could have known that if he posted, you would be all over him. But these arguments you don't want to hear. No there must be a conspiracy.

[mykonian]

Why do I even bother?

DGB, I think we have by now established that we don't agree. On practically everything. Lets have a pause and let the others catch up.

[mykonian]

Day 1 Vote Count

CSL ( 0 )
DrippingGoofball ( 1 ) mykonian
elvis_knits ( 2 ) Albert B. Rampage farside22
evilsnail ( 0 )
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 1 ) popsofctown
flareonage ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
Albert B. Rampage ( 2 ) Raskol elvis_knits
mykonian ( 4 ) Rhinox flareonage plum DrippingGoofball
ojanen ( 0 )
plum ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 1 ) gayle
Raskol ( 3 ) evilsnail ojanen fishythefish
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 1 ) CSL
Total Votes ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am

I'm sorry but it's hella stupid to for somebody to pre-emptively defend albert's lurking and lack of scum hunting by blaming DGB, who has done nothing to him that I can see. I don't think this would ever be a valid excuse for someone not scumhunting, but particularly in this instance I think it's stupid. I also think people who are discouraging teleportation are anti-town. Scum have more of a reason to dislike telportation, especially since we have decided to try to teleport scummy players.

There are also coming scummy players here. How hard can it be to understand this? Scum wants to stay alive, and a teleportator is not a vig!

Plus that I'm practically the only one arguing for it, you could just as easily have said I am antitown, in stead of taking this roundabout way of saying it.

Plus it wasn't pre-emptive. And arguing for a teleportation is always after the lynch, so lynch albert, and the whole problem isn't there. But if he isn't lynched, I propose that either he or DGB is send, for reasons mentioned earlier.

[mykonian]

Myko, I wasn't trying to be roundabout. I was talking about you and only you being hella stupid regarding your defense of albert.

If you are town, you are not helping find scum. You are arguing about stupid things like, that we should not teleport, or we should use it to jettison abr for personality reasons (when actually we should lynch him since he's scummy, or teleport him because he's scummy... not for personality conflicts --

seriously personality conflicts between abr and dgb haven't played a part until you started worrying about it).

DGB claims otherwise. She says ABR must have told me they were there. I thought to read it in ABR's post.

But I'll take your word for it.

And I fully agree we should never lynch someone for personality conflicts, that's why I proposed this. I feared that was the reason, and teleportation would be

the

way to deal with it.

I better stay out of it then. It seems I'm more likely to make things worse, as you say it.

[mykonian]

Rhinox, blue post coming (theory)

I didn't answer that question, I missed it. We disagree about the use of the word WIFOM. WIFOM is a phenomenom that comes up in this game where there is a tactic or action that is helpful to town. The opposite action would be beneficial for scum. Because of WIFOM, scum won't allways take the course to help their own chances, but they will pick a percentage of the time the towny option, as not to give themselves away.

So essentially, everything scum does, everything this game is, is seeing through these possible actions and see what scum did. WIFOM is a central part of the game, and little information here is absolute (like there isn't a definate towntell: WIFOM taints this as scum will do it too). Every information is changed by WIFOM. The more information, the better town can try to find scum.

So you tell me I created WIFOM. I didn't. I created information, but none of this information is absolute. But that is not my problem, that is the nature of this game.

to compare this to confusion is not fair, I think. Neither is calling confusion imaginary. The bigger the mess, the less effective the town. Big rereads will slow the game down.

I see that nobody agrees with me, and that the teleporter will teleport players anyway.

About crosskills. I wanted that I could share your optimism, but I don't see scum going for scummy players that are zapped in. Neither do I see the new scum shooting other then players that are likely town. The greatest effect you will again achieve close to endgame. (where I have argued the teleportation mechanic finally becomes useful).

Rhinox: what makes me so important to you that your post (to put it in a different way) is pretty much focused on me?

Scum deserve extra attention.

Did you ever answer this question by the way?

you knew I was scum before your catchup post? Is that why you practically tunneled on me? I would very much like to know what evidence you used for this, since that must be an awesome scumhunting tool.

[mykonian]

Rhinox, I say I create information. You say that information is not decisive. We are both right, I just don't see how extra information, even when doubting how effective it could be, can ever hurt us.

Nobody tells any person to use it. I have actually never even used the answer itself, but the way the person answered, what his motivation was while answering. See my analysis of Farside, Fishy, DGB, Plum and I thought evilsnail. Gayle couldn't answer it for obvious reasons, and the reluctance to give information makes Raskol quite likely scum.

So I have provided analysis from this question, but I don't see that coming back in your argument anywhere. You seem to think the information is worthless. I don't think any information is.

[mykonian]

Gayle, "kicking in the mouth" means?

[mykonian]

SOME information is worthless you absolute-slingin' fool! The fourth digit of the 5-dollar bill I just saw in my wallet is 9. How shall you use that?

I bet somebody can. And although you might think it, the person who invented that information was not scum.

About elvis. I honestly don't get where people get those reads from. She isn't lurking, and there only seems to be talking about her because her bandwagon is still a tad big. Probably scum once having their vote placed now keeping it there. I see it very much as a failed wagon, and that has a reason. Elvis didn't really stand out, so I don't think the case on her is that great. Nothing has really been scummy.

[mykonian]

Elvis, why post 483. Did you want to correct the "tone" of your previous post?

[mykonian]

Well that's just too bad, isn't it? Ain't so fun getting caught when you're scum huh?

I don't believe that is it. Someway the ad-hom argument triggered Elvis. She went from arguing to mad so very quickly. I didn't see it coming, tbh. So I asked if her post after it was a joke, to show she knew she was very much overreacting.

But no, nothing of that. She again confirms she was mad at people. I simply can't see how this escalated so quickly.

Elvis, I'm not calling you scum, but this feels very odd to me. Would you have an explanation? (and personal life is enough of an answer, I don't need to know more)

[mykonian]

Bolded is mine. And take your time replying to it, I should be sleeping. I'll take a look in the morning.

mykonian

- myko talks about scumhunting will win the game but talks about stragdy of the game right after.

are you accusing me of not scumhunting, or even active lurking. Please tell.

interesting:

Evilsnail: I am not going to answer my own question if nobody wants the answer

.

a few people answered this question why refuse to answer yourself?

Posting something that isn't going to be read is a waste of everyones time, and just fills the thread

Well you did answer in this post actually so the comment leaves me in a lot of pondering

myko why did you vote from DGB to raskol and with such a hypocritcal statement as this:

You completely forgot what you did with fishy, and went for the next target, with a less then spectacular case. Where are you going to run next?

Farside, please tell my what is hyporcritical about this. Hint: check the argument. There is something wrong, and it was talked about in the defense.

I love how myko says he didn't want to read the ou but clearly is.

I don't think I ever said that. I did say I don't expect everyone to do so, simply because it would be hard to keep up. As you know, from time to time I have way too much time to waste, so I hope it won't be a problem for me.

myko why would you switch you vote to CSL?

I would vote him for mindlessly bandwagonning and then hopping of as soon as it seems to fail, with an enigmatic: it has served it's purpose

The case on DGB is terrible. Speaking from what you posted as a case I can point to a time DGB said scum day talked and she was town. It's a null tell.

Lots of defending from myko and I didn't find a case that was really well thought out excpet raskol case.

both are easily explained. I almost never make a post simply to restate the arguments against someone. A "case" like that you won't often find with me, only when I feel I really need to convince people (close to a deadline, or something like that). My arguments are often divided over multiple posts, posted as I find them. You'll find that I have had opinions about far more people then only Raskol, something you try to insinuate here.

And I would like you to quote what you thought my case on DGB. Because I don't believe I have posted one.

[mykonian]

She gets all up on myko and that slip that plum posted

That is not her main point, I think. DGB, seen the rest of her play, doesn't vote on single absolute tells. She is more of a gut voter. Her "gut" tells her I have been manipulating from the start, she says.

[mykonian]

No.

I thought it was obvious, but I guess I'm going to have to spell it out.

I'm voting Mykonian for the following reasons:

(1) THE QUESTION. If players would have answered the question, it would have made it easier for the scum to frame townies on fake nonsense than to help town find scum.

the answer has not one time been used that way, and since the argument would be largely determined by WIFOM, this is a seriously weak argument.

(2) THE SCUM SLIP. Farside - you know how much credence to ascribe to "slips" and I am no stranger to the notion that they are pretty worthless tells. However, mykonian was, on the face of it, perhaps the hugest slip I've ever seen. Is the hugest slip I've ever seen that much of a scumtell? No. It's a pretty lame scum tell. What is scummy here is that despite his own cartwheels to try to pry himself out of the jaws of his own slip, he says that HIS "slip" is a mere "incorrect sentence." However, his absolutely ridiculous interpretation of my justified refusal to answer his question about scumtells as a slip is still considered, by Mykonian The King of Scumlips, a much bigger scumlips than his own, because I show that I "have no interest in making the town play better." Which, given how much content I post and how solidly I am involved in the game, should be dismissed out of hand. THAT is scummy. Ignoring his own mega-slip, but stubbornly hanging on to the fake slip he's trying to put on me.

so your point is that I found a slip in your play! You should have told that was the problem, dear. Very well, lets explain what I was saying. There are 3 ways a slip gets created. 1 is the scum-explanation. 2 is the mistake from a towny. 3 is the misreading of a statement. I claim 2 has happened, you claim 3. Which makes that in your case, you claim that the sentence you typed was correct. That way it can be analyzed what you are saying with it.

In my case, I showed what the post should have been, so that could be analyzed too, and the post makes sense that way. It is a mistake (which could have gotten there because my mind was with scumplay). This is the difference I claim there.

(3) THE GUT. He's pushing, pulling back, pushing, pulling back. I'm more sensitive to the comments directed at me, so those are the ones I will use. Have you noticed how he defends me, then paints me as scum, then defends me again, then paints me as scum again. That's typical scum bracing himself for pushing a mislynch while diminishing his own responsibility in the deed.

I think I have done much more defending of myself against you then defending you. It might have been in the start of the game that I then thought you town, then scum. But I have no idea how that is in any way scummy. In case you think this really serious, could you quote some pieces?

(4) THE ABR INTERACTION. These two chat in a QT. Mykonian defends ABR in such a way that he shows that he knows stuff that could conly come from ABR. However, they are not masons, therefore, they are scum. What reason is there to defend ABR who hasn't done an iota of scumhunting (which according to mykonian is my fault), is totally not paying attention to the game, and is active lurking after being called out on regular old-fashioned lurking?

Could only come from ABR? I showed how I read the thread, where my thoughts came from. Elvis told even told me I was too paranoid and it wasn't really there. Further, from the start, I have continiously said one of you two. Nothing about ABR in special, and that would in no way stop anyone from voting, or lynching, since the teleportation happens after the lynch. But suddenly I'm the evil defending person.

Also I demand an apology from Mykonian for suggesting that I'm out here to intimidate ABR (of all people) and inhibit his scumhunting while he tells me to "Shut up and die." If anyone here is pursuing a personal agenda, it is ABR, not me. Furthermore, ABR once replaced out immediately as I replaced into a game he was in. I point out that I am not mirroring his behavior in this game. I'm perfectly able to keep issues like these out of the way and not let them cloud my judgment. I don't think the same can be said of your scumbuddy.

I have not said it was concious, I just assumed that I thought you didn't work well together, that this could get your focus wrong, could make someone to avoid the other, etc. I don't care who of you two the bull is, and who the red cloth, but this makes a mess of the game, and is in no way constructive.

Seen this post it has an effect on you. You dislike it very much. That is all I want to avoid, k?

But I apologize. If elvis is correct and I caused this, then I'm truly sorry. I hoped to prevent drama. But seriously, if one of you two is doing this as a strategy, I think this went too far.


DGB's argument that fishy is scum for answering that question is WRONG. Look at that answer, and tell me. Is this scum trying to hide or manipulate, or is this someone truthfully analyzing his own play and telling us? Fishy is town for exactly that post.

[mykonian]

I absolutely don't like how fast Fishy went from town to scum on DGB's list. Esspecially since it is on evidence that was already there. It mostly seems to be because DGB feels the need to be consistent with her "everyone who answers the question is scum".

Trying to be consistent = scum. Esspecially for DGB who seems to be never bother by it.

[mykonian]

EBWOP: who seems never to be bothered with it.

[mykonian]

I hadn't seen this post.

God help me I think I want to vote myko now.

Myko you critisized me for what I said about how I am as scum but praise fishy for saying how he is as scum and town and call him town for that post?
Seriously I read it as lots of back and forth with no meat on his true tell.

yes I did. I found Fishy's post to look very truthful, while I had my doubts about yours (as posted there). Look at my reasoning there, and you'll see why I thought that your answer could have been made by scum (generalities, mostly, I thought. (I bus often, I hop onto wagons when not interested.)

compare this to: I tend to get more logical as scum, by fishy. Yours is about actions, as scum easily avoidable. Fishy's is a playstyle thing. If he was scum, he would have to work to stay away from it. You just had to make sure you wouldn't bus, and you wouldn't bandwagon, both easily avoidable. Fishy's answer would have made his scumplay quite difficult, yours, not so much. This was something that made Fishy town in my opinion.

I hope this explains the difference. And I didn't post this, since it is normally not-done to make arguments why someone is town.

[mykonian]

Farside, I have trouble to hunt scum based on meta anyway. I personally can't use the tells that are given anyway. The idea is to see how exactly someone answers, which could be a good way to start an investigation.

So I don't need to confirm anything if the answers are actually true. I need for example Raskol's no answer, Your, lets face it, reluctant (but as in the reaction, it was the first = pluspoints) answer etc.

[mykonian]

Farside, I have said this earlier too, in the argument with rhinox, what information I expected from this question. But since you don't actually read the thread very well, your game stays nice and interesting. Something new every post, right?

And as you could see, I have directly analysed the answers. I have not done anything with the tells themselves. So I'm saying the truth, and I have no idea how you want to make that scummy.

Maybe you expected more, but that is what I have done. You ask me to confirm you are not lying about your tells, and I honestly don't care. I don't expect you to lie, as scum or as town, as you would be caught. I am looking if you are having trouble telling the truth or not.

How hard is this to understand?

And if you really want to vote me, don't waste my time by setting me up. I have nothing to hide. Just say it is because of the slip and they'll be happy.

[mykonian]

I have once played with DGB in a large themed game. Don't remember much of it, so all I have said is mostly what I have heard or read elsewhere. She is known to play different. I don't know how effective. But that doesn't excuse her a bit for continiously searching scum in my posts. I don't think we have often agreed, DGB chooses everytime the opposite side of the argument, and then repeatedly calls me scum. I think on purpose.

I see a difference between: I play logically as scum and I miss scumtells of my partner when they are in danger are two different things IMO. Don't you? Further your reluctance to answer (and that is not a new point) was what I expected from scum. Farside, I don't think your and Fishy's answer where the same.

And you really didn't think I was going to analyze my own answer, right?

mod, can we have a votecount?

done

PS: farside, are you mad at me that I can't see you are town?

[mykonian]

sorry, you misunderstand me.

I had the feeling the previous series of posts are because you think I am to stupid or scum to see you are town. TBH, after that answer (which had the positive being the first, the negative the reluctancy), the only thing that really stood out is your taking sides for ABR.

So I don't know what you are. Though the previous posts (see previous alinea) felt towny.

[mykonian]

There are clearly two explanations for myk's slip - it was a scumslip or an alignment neutral slip. To entertain them both as possibilities isn't "wishy-washy". I stated my conclusion - that I view it as a decent point against myk - and I don't really see how I could have been more concrete.

Logically then the conclusion should that it was a null tell.

Instead, you appeared to entertain both options, as if giving yourself the option of drawing both conclusions (e.g. by at a later date going "on closer inspection, it seems more likely to be a scum slip").

No, that makes no sense. Nothing tells you both explanations are just as likely. If you analyse the situation, using both explanations, and you look at the likelyhood of these explanations, then you can truly say how effective an argument based on this situation is.

The goal of such a post is to make an opinion about a certain event, not to argue for a lynch. You'll get as an answer how likely someone is scum, after looking at arguments that are in favor and against that person, not a post that argues only in favor of one point.

To call this wishy-washy is easy: Didn't he use arguments from both sides? This is wrong, because you are neglecting the goal of the post, which is not to argue for a lynch, but to clear up a situation, making it orderly and then getting a conclusion from it. This conclusion may be used later in an argument to argue for a lynch.

I'll try to look up the english words for the different types of text.

[mykonian]

plea and consideration, google gives.

[mykonian]

ok, we disagree.

[mykonian]

Her "gut" tells her I have been manipulating from the start, she says.

Well you did claim to be a good manipulator as scum

a good manipulator wouldn't get caught.[/color]

This is the scummy wifom I was talking about. fishy is no less likely scum that realized that he could BS a huge list of tells to appease you and appear to be the "cooperative townie" because he knew the info he provided would not hurt his chances at winning as scum. Just because it looked truthful does not apply. Its a logical fallacy. Just because Lies=scum does not mean Truthful=town. Otherwise a scum could claim scum, and by this logic would prove them to be town.

Sorry Rhinox, but isn't it true that scum allways wants to look town? Every action scum does is to appease me, so I have no idea what your problem is other then that this is another moment where scum can mess up, being unknown with what is coming.

[mykonian]

Gayle, look at who said it: DGB has thought me scum for quite some time. It isn't that weird for her to call her new bystander (who found what a lot of people read over) town. Can't say I disagree, though plum doesn't post enough yet.

Can you dig from your memory this: Did you think at this point DGB was scum?

Scum, definately. Town wouldn't reason that way, so saying she acted that way also shows how I think about her. I didn't disagree on her town read of plum, but it wasn't because her opinions suited me at that moment, like they did for DGB.

[mykonian]

This is the scummy wifom I was talking about.

fishy is no less likely scum that realized that he could BS a huge list of tells to appease you and appear to be the "cooperative townie"

because he knew the info he provided would not hurt his chances at winning as scum. Just because it looked truthful does not apply. Its a logical fallacy. Just because Lies=scum does not mean Truthful=town. Otherwise a scum could claim scum, and by this logic would prove them to be town.

Sorry Rhinox, but isn't it true that scum allways wants to look town? Every action scum does is to appease me, so I have no idea what your problem is other then that this is another moment where scum can mess up, being unknown with what is coming.

the bolded part seems to be the core of your argument. I think that part is true for every part of the game, as scum always wants to look town and do things to appease us. I have absolutely no idea why you would say that to discredit any question, esspecially as you here claim that fishy beforehand knew what I was going to do with the answer.

So I understand that scum can look town, but it is always that way, and scum could also fail, and then we catch them. Right?

And the lies=scum etc argument. You saw that my main argument against some people was that they didn't want to answer or were reluctant to answer. I don't expect people to lie (like I argued with farside), since that gets scum caught, but I expect scum to hide things. Your argument is a strawman, though I don't think you would do that on purpose in such a discussion.

[mykonian]

contrary to Rhinox, my feel with the game has not exactly improved. The arguing in the last few pages had little to do with scumhunting (sorry, I'm to blame too), and makes that I forget a lot of things. I also forget what people I miss, and while the focus is on CSL, I don't belief all other 14 were in the thread in a constructive. I wouldn't know who I missed, though I can't remember when I saw Flare. Still, I have the feeling that a few players push the rest out, and this makes me tunnelvisioned on a few people (yes, lurking works great against me).

Summary for myself on some people I haven't said a lot about

I don't believe Elvis is scum with DGB, seen the massive buddying going on there. The last thing between them (Elvis saying that if DGB lurks now, that is a very bad tell), is something that stands out, and I would like to ask someone if that is true, or if that is Elvis giving herself the possibility to hop onto the DGB wagon.

The CSL wagon, while understandable, is not where you'll find my vote. It would be a policy lynch, and I rather lynch on the 28 pages we have now. The last point on CSL is false. CSL read the current page, plum was one of the last posts, and voted on that. His unvote was much worse, after DGB unvoted.

I won't comment on Rhinox. I have trouble reading him, always think he is town. He most likely is (11/14), so I'll go for that.

Pops I have no meta on. He seems to be a player here for the fun, not the actual winning of the game (sig + his totally useless posts). If this is not true, and someone knows him well enough that he really cares about this game, then something weird is going on here. Esspecially since he started the game as towny in my eyes, I can't understand his latest play.

Farside I have as leaning scum by now. I really can't understand what her motivations are when posting, and the things she says are too often copies of what is said earlier in the game. The argument with me what the difference was between fishy and her answer seemed to be asking to say she was town after all. I don't think town would remember one of the first arguments made against her. If this was the case, she would normally have answered it did bother her. She didn't.

Hey, I forgot Raskol! I saw a good post from him a few pages ago.

[mykonian]

BS OMGUS? Seriously, you accuse me of OMGUS while you have expressed that you had a town read on me but that you aren't sure about that anymore?

Just saying it is OMGUS is not a defense

mykonian

-

myko talks about scumhunting will win the game but talks about stragdy of the game right after

interesting:

Evilsnail: I am not going to answer my own question if nobody wants the answer

.

a few people answered this question why refuse to answer yourself?

Well you did answer in this post actually so the comment leaves me in a lot of pondering

myko why did you vote from DGB to raskol and with such a hypocritcal statement as this:

You completely forgot what you did with fishy, and went for the next target, with a less then spectacular case. Where are you going to run next?

I love how myko says he didn't want to read the ou but clearly is.

myko why would you switch you vote to CSL?

The case on DGB is terrible. Speaking from what you posted as a case I can point to a time DGB said scum day talked and she was town. It's a null tell.

Lots of defending from myko

and I didn't find a case that was really well thought out excpet raskol case.

This part of your post was what alarmed me.

Bolded are parts you directly copied from Evilsnail, Rhinox, and DGB. (not so sure about DGB, I had to give that answer to her. Not sure if she asked or accused)

---

Italics have the intention of making people distrust (if she is scum), with little basis, or significance:

During the strategy talk I have said that we should think that the mechanic will do our work, that scumhunting is what must be done. I have done this later, as you can see. Little significance.

She has to ponder since she didn't completely get what I posted. Why does she have to post this? To show english is my third language or to show something weird is going on?

Never was the scumtalk-argument from DGB my only point against her. No wonder she can say my case on DGB is terrible.

Lots of defending. That is an easy way to discredit me. Please quote me, I don't think I have ever done that without reason.

---

Underlined are complete lies. I have never said I wouldn't read the OU.


This makes that after Raskol and DGB, Farside is my 3rd, way before Elvis, ABR, and Pops. CSL and Flare I won't get a good read on, as they are excused of bad play.

[mykonian]

BS OMGUS? Seriously, you accuse me of OMGUS while you have expressed that you had a town read on me but that you aren't sure about that anymore? Just saying it is OMGUS is not a defense

You read that post as me calling you town?
That clearly is uncertain but may be only clear to me.
Point being I presented issues with your play. Your case I basically have done next to nothing this game with no quotes at all and yes I'm going it OMGUS because we argued earlier were I questioned your play and you came back at me. I also went over you scum slips and you ignored just saying well I'm not going to be looking at what I said closely. Nice ignoring of my points again.
You haven't any case and this clearly is just an attempt to discredit me to others with no value. I'm going to assume at this point my vote on pops is good with myko/pops scum at this point.

I read earlier posts that way. Later, during that argument I shifted to scummy in your eyes, but you expressed doubt, rather then calling me outright scummy. So yes, I still had the feeling you had a town read on me.

You say I ignored something. I have not had an intention to do so, but I don't reply to everything. What was so important that I missed?

myko why did you vote from DGB to raskol and with such a hypocritcal statement as this:

Quote:
You completely forgot what you did with fishy, and went for the next target, with a less then spectacular case. Where are you going to run next?

I have to check but I swear you voted from DGB to fishy back to DGB for the same thing. Will check this again to be sure.

Sorry, you remember wrong. I was seen as not remembering my case when Rhinox claimed I had completely forgot about my vote and case on him, while there was nothing substantial. This was true, since I mixed up Rhinox and Raskols name.

DGB is meta based how does that promote distrust how is that not significate?
You defending her bring alarm bells as your also call her scum in the same breathe.

I am sorry, I don't understand what you are asking from me, could you state it in a different way?

Underlined are complete lies. I have never said I wouldn't read the OU.

the strategy I propose: (for clarity)

no teleportation. In case the other universe sends a player, teleport him back next night, that way restoring the universes. That player sadly would not be able to post in the other universe, but he would not have to worry about splitting his attention.

Further, no universe would have to worry about the amount of scum and scumteams.

The teleporter=vig strategy only works during endgame, where it is the last action made (winning or losing the game afterwards).

I read this as how you felt as a player as well I assumed again this was your feel as people don't just say well only other people feel this way and don't say they don't feel this way as well.

I argue for something but that doesn't mean it is accepted. So unless everybody would have said "great plan, lets do it" I would prepare by reading the other universe now and then. Sorry to call you a liar, I see how you got it.

[mykonian]

It is a sad thing I am against policy lynches, but I see your point, pops.

[mykonian]

and that is 6...

[mykonian]

You know who'd be eager to give a list of scumtells?

5KuMz

That's who.

We should lynch everyone that answered.

Won't answer = town

DGB
Raskol
farside

Has answered or supports this idiocy= 5KuMz

evilsnail

Players I declare to be town

Flareon
pops/Boxxy
farside

Did I miss anything?

vote: evilsmail

I have cracked the game.

The 5KuMz are:

1. evilsnail
2. mykonian
3. elvis

Elvis is playing to her scum meta.

mykonian is scum for his post 211.

In particular: "If you have a mindset where catching scum is pointless, you are scum. I am certain this was a major scumslip." - this is so many layers of wrong it's like a 5-story high lasagna.

As much as it pains me to find elvis scum in this game, I'm not averse to lynching her first.

Lets not forget how DGB got a scumread on me. This "read" finally became a vote when I made my mistake. When defending this, DGB claimed that I was scum because I found her slip, and if that was scummy, then my slip was too. This is not true because both situation are not the same.

DGB her read seems to come more out of OMGUS feelings, and tunneling afterwards then anything else. Her trying to please Pops in the recent posts (by placing him up the list as he asks, and by supporting his action against CSL) are showing that DGB is still busier to survive and manipulate the town then to look for scum.

[mykonian]

Is this what you are saying? (yes I'm changing words I used to, just for clarity)

DGB scumhunts by meta. How does that promote distrust, how is that not important? You defend her and attack her in the same post, this is scummy.

About the part in italics: I don't think I have one post that is my case against DGB, there are a lot of point over multiple posts. In the post you use I say I think she is just trying to read scum in everything I do, and that this manipulation is scummy. I also say that this is not the first time, but that she is doing it over and over again. This is one point (and you are right, one of the weaker) points I have against her.

DGB is meta based how does that promote distrust how is that not significate?
You defending her bring alarm bells as your also call her scum in the same breathe.

I am sorry, I don't understand what you are asking from me, could you state it in a different way?

Those comments were based on the comments you put in italics where you said this:

Italics have the intention of making people distrust (if she is scum), with little basis, or significance:

The case on DGB is terrible. Speaking from what you posted as a case I can point to a time DGB said scum day talked and she was town. It's a null tell.
Lots of defending from myko

Let me know if this confused you again. I may have worded something or posted this oddly. I'm looking at it myself and saying does this make sense.

[mykonian]

points missed my myko:

okay lets go over your "scum tells"

It has been some time that I was scum. During my games a scum I now know I was easy to catch, but people haven't allways found out how. I used to fakeclaim pretty well, but exactly the care with which breadcrumbs were placed showed that I was scum. Also, the use of PBPA to attack someone was something I used to reduce pressure on myself, and sadly, with some succes. Although people have never caught this, I used to manipulate peoples stances gradually, which resulted in some interesting discussions Smile The reason people went after me mostly was staying of the lynch-bandwagon, and sometimes arguing against it. But I have seen people lynch me for that regardless of my role Smile

fake claiming doesn't matter too much in this game.
The PBPA thing excuses you from not doing it in this game.
vote wise:
DrippingGoofball ( 4 ) mykonian, Albert B. Rampage, popsofctown, farside22.
You were the firs to vote but I saw you do a slight defense of DGB in saying she is a gut player. So do you know what DGB play is as a general rule? Have you played with DGB at all?

Also you missed my point about fishy and my claim.
Are comments are pretty similar in idea's so I don't see a difference. You want to use those quotes I brought up to show what difference you are talking about.

Often copies of what was said in the game? I brought up DGB first. I commented about ABR and my feel on his read. I have gone through and posted something more then just town/ or scum on almost all players here and your saying it was almost all stuff said earlier? I meantioned the comment and backing off from pops first

I noticed you just glossed over this and went straight for the OMGUS comment.
But seriously are you high or what is the story with the "case" your trying to make?

You didn't comment on what I brought to attention on your scum slips.

And you didn't say exactly what you thought when I asked about the differences between fishy and I in our how I am as scum post when I put the post together and showed the similarites, the opinions and where we look more as scum.

Sorry, the first part I thought you wanted to show me my own wasn't brilliant either. I have read this, and answered that I hadn't checked myself.

I had answered the question about DGB: 1 large themed, and I know from reading she tends to be different.

I didn't think them the same, also not in idea. This plus your reluctance to answer, made me think you are scum who is hesitant to answer, while I never had such a feeling with Fishy. I believe I have said this multiple times.


Then the last quote. What is there to reply? Do I have to say "you are towny for trying so hard"?, Or do I have to say "why are you trying so hard to look town, Farside?"

The bolded I must have missed. I have no idea what it is about.

[mykonian]

Seeing as we are warned for the deadline:

I think Raskol scum is playing very clever here. His wagon basically is gone, since others have argued. He went lurking after he was attacked by multiple people, for good reasons.

I'm still up for his lynch. I prefer a DGB or Raskol lynch. 3 days should be enough to calmly come to a good lynch, in stead of racing in panic to the biggest bandwagon.

[mykonian]

re: me 'lurking'. Yes, I have been somewhat. I'm in 4 games atm, which is twice as many as I've ever been in before at once, so I'm not going to be posting as much in any of them. I've also been relatively busy in the past few days getting caught up on some reading. The fact that this game is moving so fast doesn't make it any better, either.

That is reasonable, the game is moving a little bit too fast, too much arguing over nothing. But seriously, evilsnail? I would have to reread him, but his posts seemed town to me.

[mykonian]

Aaaaanyway. First of all, I do not consider Myk's "slip" conclusive, especially after his explanation. Slips are rarely clear-cut enough to deal with as strong evidence, and it really was

not

my main point against Myk. I would

not

have unvoted DGB and voted Myk only for that. My main beef with him was an apparent disjoint between his opinion on Kairyuu's plan which involved Teleporting in a specific pattern &c. (that it was good) vs. his preferred plan, which involved no Teleportation at all (implying that Teleportation is bad); seeming to both try to get credit for approving Kai's plan but subtly trying to dissuade us from using it for no good or explained reason at all.

I hope I explained this afterwards. The difference is in the benefit of those plans. Kai's, if it had worked, had given confirmed townies. Teleporting scummy players would just have shoved players around. 1st = good, 2nd = bad.

Kai's strategy was to create a confirmed towny by letting the claimed teleporters change play on that moment. These then had to be killed by the scum. (this later proved to be an impossible tactic because of the rules)

There was also talking about sending scummy players to the other universe. These stay in the game, are not confirmed scum or town, etc: these confuse.

So while I argued that we shouldn't do that, the plan to create confirmed townies was good. I argued against sending scummy players, but in favor using Kai's idea to make confirmed townies.

This would all be perfectly fine if you didn't press for no Teleportation whatsoever. Am I incorrect?

If there is a mechanic that could provide confirmed townies, we would be fools not to exploit that.

Still and all, Myk says it best:

you make me so very very happy. This is a first

Hoopla, do you want me to be teleported to get me in that universe, or out of this one, and why?

PS: Hoopla, you have seen one of my recent games. The game where I tried to look very protown (in stead of trying to find scum). Here is how I play when I have to find scum.

[mykonian]

myko 679: ok I can see what you're saying here but IGMEOY still because that is a very weak reason to call someone town. IMO, fishy's response is a null tell, not a town tell. Either scum or town could have made that response.

What did you think of my response to your question by the way? you never really gave any thoughts on it.


Why is everyone talking about CSL like his lynch would be a pure policy lynch? I've never played a mafia game with CSL before, but in this games his few actions have seemed scummy. There's nothing policy about his hypo lynch except the policy of lynching scum.

yes, that is a weak reason. It is also early game. Later in the game fishy again seemed town to me, forming my current read on him. I don't remember having thoughts on your answer: I problably didn't have them then.

I have seen CSL fakeclaim a powerrole as towny in an open setup. Have you ever played with him?

[mykonian]

I dislike DGB's recent attempts to reduce the wagon on her to a personal vendetta with ABR. I don't think that's at all a fair representation.

QFT. That way she doesn't have to defend the points against her. But ABR isn't the only one on the wagon.

[mykonian]

It's ABR that we need to lynch.

I thought for a moment that he might claim mason with mykonian - however, it's called ACROSS THE UNIVERSE mason for a reason, which is, we don't start in the same universe.

These two are talking, I am sure. Come on. Read mykonian. And they cannot be masons, it is impossible.

you were honestly trying to out the masons? I thought you had read the setup, but here your intentions were antitown.

[mykonian]

never mind, I should read the thread first.

[mykonian]

ABR is a maybe because I don't know how much of his his personal vendetta and how much is scum.

I think he's scum. Read mykonian's posts. He seems to "know" too many details that no one should be privy to. Are these two not sharing notes in a QT?

How many details were there? None. From ABR's post (comparing you to adel), and your "I'll be all over him when he posts", it wasn't hard to deduce something wasn't working there. Which has been all that I have said.

Elvis later said I was wrong, and that I might actually have started it.

unvote vote Raskol

Testing if there are people still interested for this. CSL is basically as good as a random lynch. I'll wait with ABR. His arguing against a counterclaim is wrong, as a scumlynch day 1 really makes scumhunting work in later days. However, I won't vote him because he might be the mason that was avoiding a counterclaim. If this is not true, I think ABR is scum trying to push a lynch through.

Other people on my scum list I don't want to lynch now, tbh.

about the teleportation

Seen as the other universe is quite a bit slower, and there are people having trouble keeping up, it might be an idea to send someone who has trouble keeping up (Ojanen, Evilsnail, Plum). These are players that are not considered scummy by the majority, and have made decent posts, but are performing under their potential because the game is too fast for them. It is also a possibility to pull someone in the other universe who seems to be too good for them, and who really could add something here: (Jahudo?)

[mykonian]

Hoopla: NO. The other mason is in the other universe. They'll get killed both! DGB should not claim her partner.

[mykonian]

and only in that case, the other universe should be contacted. Not before a counterclaim.

[mykonian]

I'd like to remind everyone that

Mykonian was advocating a teleportation of ABR earlier today

, on account of ABR's irrational hatred of me.

I was looking for the specific instances in Mykonian's posts that suggests day communication with ABR, and while I did find them, I also found his entire body of work so scummy, when read in iso, that I would be typing from now until midnight to make a case and I have to leave for badminton in half an hour.

Please please please

Everyone, I urge you to take a really deep look at mykonian, and make up your own minds. He is scum with ABR. It is not my imagination.

Mykonian was advocating a teleportation of one of {DGB, ABR}, because they didn't seem to work together very well. It is your imagination. At some point in the game you decided I was scum (around the time I voted you for your "slip"), and after that it is one big mess of "MYKO IS SCUM" posts, and trying to read scum in my posts, to support your case. I haven't done a single thing well in your eyes. Quit it, DGB. For once you are wrong.

You ask for other opinions, they have already posted them. You aren't asking, you are trying to convince people I'm scum. You do that now, you did that the whole thread long. I have explained every point you made against me, and you just bring them up again. No wonder you think I'm scum.

[mykonian]

You do that now, you did that the whole thread long. I have explained every point you made against me, and you just bring them up again. No wonder you think I'm scum.

OK, let's do that the other way around. What have you posted that should reassure me that you're town?

Guilty until proven innocent. But I'll bite. I can't be proven innocent, but I have tried my best to investigate a lot of posts, analyze players, and getting reads on them.

I remember one (last thing with farside), when you said that made me scum. I had quoted a post there where I pointed out what was wrong, and why. I don't think I would do that as scum, aggressively investigating Farside, as I know her a bit. It is kind of foolish to attack farside, since you will get a response. It is her nature.

You are probably not assured, but I've tried to answer. The problem is, scum would type this too, as scum wants to show how they were town. So unless you are using that last bit as a tell (for me as scum), I don't see how this is really going to help you.

[mykonian]

I remember one (last thing with farside), when you said that made me scum. I had quoted a post there where I pointed out what was wrong, and why. I don't think I would do that as scum, aggressively investigating Farside, as I know her a bit. It is kind of foolish to attack farside, since you will get a response. It is her nature.

You talking about the so called case saying I was following people and was full of crap and I called you on and then backtracked and tried to almost subtely use the too townie idea without saying it?

You make it a so called case: because I didn't. I explained my reasons why you moved up my scumlist.

It wasn't full of crap, you didn't reply to half the points, and the FACT that you directly copied two questions in that post are showing I was in fact right. I haven't backtracked, since those points couldn't and werent explained. I have absolutely no idea how I have subtely used the too townie idea there. I don't think you too towny, so that is most likely you trying to read manipulation in my posts. (seen the subtility, you had to search for it)

So this post full of strong language perfectly hides that I had valid points against you.

[mykonian]

yep, I see no counterclaim from ABR: he is likely scum. I'll vote, but I'll wait for the other universe (Fishy is right)

[mykonian]

[/quote]

mykonian

-

myko talks about scumhunting will win the game but talks about stragdy of the game right after

interesting:

Evilsnail: I am not going to answer my own question if nobody wants the answer

.

a few people answered this question why refuse to answer yourself?

Well you did answer in this post actually so the comment leaves me in a lot of pondering

myko why did you vote from DGB to raskol and with such a hypocritcal statement as this:

You completely forgot what you did with fishy, and went for the next target, with a less then spectacular case. Where are you going to run next?

I love how myko says he didn't want to read the ou but clearly is.

myko why would you switch you vote to CSL?

The case on DGB is terrible. Speaking from what you posted as a case I can point to a time DGB said scum day talked and she was town. It's a null tell.

Lots of defending from myko

and I didn't find a case that was really well thought out excpet raskol case.

Bolded are parts you directly copied from Evilsnail, Rhinox, and DGB. (not so sure about DGB, I had to give that answer to her. Not sure if she asked or accused)[/quote]This point stands

And that last point of yours, that is not the too towny thing. Fishy for example is much more towny then you.

What is scummy, is that you

care

how towny you look. You want me to say you are towny, while not a single towny should argue why he is town. It is not important for town. Town wants to find scum, not look town. Something that is clearly on your mind. I find it typical you have to paint that as "too towny".

[mykonian]

@myko;

First off did you know each list I made was reading a person in isolation?

Second that is 2 things in bold that 3 other people said exactly word for word? Really? Or is it something they brought up when you said it?
I just want to be clear on the exact words since your saying that I "directly copied" the sentence

I don't care how towny I look. I don't care if everyone said here your scum and need to die as long as I point to the people I feel are scum and made a valid point to me that means the town is in good hands
I just outlined why your "observations" where completely invalid which has nothing to do with what I was looking for.

You want to twist my defending your "observations" as looking town when I just dismantled your whole case by all means people continue on your hypocrisy.

Yes, I know that. How does that in any way excuse your using questions from other people (that were answered)? (Rhetorical question)

They asked the very same question. The wording was maybe not exactly the same, but there was resemblance enough for me to recognize it. Though again, this is not the point. Whether you retyped their questions or copied them is essentially the same

Then why are you asking, why Fishy and you aren't in idea the same, saying my arguments (feel, your reluctance, the fact that Fishy would have to change his scumplay at the very basis) are rubbish. You keep comparing yourself to Fishy, my biggest townread in this game.

And when I say I find this suspicious, combined with the above, you come with a big list why you are towny.

Farside, you care a lot how towny you look

.

And you have dismantled nothing. You have called it names. You have argued around points. And now I'm scum.

The bold that myko focased on:

a few people answered this question why refuse to answer yourself?

myko why did you vote from DGB to raskol and with such a hypocritcal statement as this:

I also want to know why myko refused to provide an answer to his own question as well.

Iso post 4

And the second you had the right quote. And I think we can agree you got that point from Rhinox. Since very quickly afterward it was solved, and nobody used it further.

[mykonian]

mykonian, farside is town, she's teflon-coated by me, nothing you can say will make suspicions stick to her.

Talk to me about your buddy evilsnail and I'll listen.

You know I think him town. His activity has been low lately, and that is a shame, but his start of the game was good, in my opinion.

And you could be right, but I think calling farside a liar and a copier is going to have just an extreme response as town or as scum. However, I have no idea why town-farside would post how active she was with doing things, when accused of copying. I have also no idea why she would use questions of others.

And DGB, I don't have to convince you. These facts are there, but the discussion between farside and me is that she thinks I misrepped her, and I think she strawmans my points. I have to make sure my points (explanations of the facts) stay clear, in stead of getting destorted and then destroyed, while to her those points are in either case a very big annoyance.

On the moment I would stop arguing, Farside would see that as a victory. It can in no way be, the points made are true, the conclusion might be wrong. Which is why I'm repeating myself.

[mykonian]

and lets end this.

vote ABR

[mykonian]

I have a problem with time today.

@gayle, I have my reasons for ABR earlier, but I thought he would counterclaim, so I didn't vote (as I said in that post), when he didn't, Ã

[mykonian]

@Elli: why did they send you?

Look at his posts in iso. He has added very little and is likely scum.

There was a reason I asked this from Elli.

Elvis, why are my ideas about strategy pro-scum? Farside her case is not that my strategy discussion was bad or wrong. In fact, everybody accepts what I said, but doesn't agree that the confusion of the teleports could be harmful to town, or at least not outweight the benefit. There has been little discussion if adding that was actually scummy, something you are saying now.

What stands out in the above post is how Elvis appeases 2 players

: farside and gayle, and then still go for the easy target.

FoS Elvis

[mykonian]

make that a

vote Elvis

There was the "wishy-washy" point against her, which I consider null, and there was something else, I thought. I'll try to find it later, but then you know what I think.

and while Elli starts out scummy (see rhinox's post) I think we are better off leaving him. Best course of action IMO is to send him back tonight. Even if that doesn't happen, we should leave him for the chance on crosskills.

Plus that I just have something against helping the other universe, when they clearly don't care about the game (not getting DGB).

[mykonian]

My thoughts on eli is that our teleporter should send him back to the UO.
I read him in isolation and I can see why they thought he was scummy.

myko: What is with your knee jerk reaction to call almost anyone who looks at you as scum and make a case against them?
So far: me, EK and DGB. (only people who call you scum that you didn't try and make a case on Rhinox and Gayle)

You forgot CSL, Plum was on me, I thought, ehh, I probably miss someone. DGB was the other way around, I expressed suspicion, she went after me. But that was pretty early, so you could have made that mistake.

and with you, that was on the moment you had expressed suspicion but nothing more, the Elvis case, I'm sure I have laying around somewhere.

Plus that I'm right with that post. She is trying to please you and Gayle. Plus that she expresses suspicion of me, but nothing more. I feel she uses it to buddy to you, so the suspicion you expressed about Elvis won't be translated into a vote.

Oh myko... you want to dance? Okay. Let's dance.

Elvis, why are my ideas about strategy pro-scum?

Your "no-teleportation" strategy is scummy.

before I have to defend this again "no-teleportation of scummy players"

no teleportation. In case the other universe sends a player, teleport him back next night, that way restoring the universes. That player sadly would not be able to post in the other universe, but he would not have to worry about splitting his attention

Teleportation is the mechanic of these games. And you want to not use it?

What kind of argument is this? if the mechanic is antitown, then no, I don't want to use it.

My suspicion is that scum do not want to be seperated, and thus do not want to be sent to the other universe. So they would be anti-teleportation, like you are. That is how your strategy is pro scum.

oh, ok. Didn't think of it that way. That could make sense (if your suspicion is correct)

Also, you later came up with the justification that it would be too confusing for people to have to read a new game. Which is crap for lots of reasons. Too confusing, too hard? Boo-hoo. Everybody who signed up for this game came in knowing teleportation was a possibility and they were told to keep an eye on the other game. Many people have been keeping up with the other game, atleast a little bit, and even posting comments to the other universe. So, I don't see why your "too confusing" argument is good at all. I think it's just another excuse to push your pro-scum no-teleportation strategy.

We have already had several people who couldn't keep up with our thread alone. When we are at day 3, and our pagecount is above 100, I fear the worst.

Farside her case is not that my strategy discussion was bad or wrong. In fact, everybody accepts what I said, but doesn't agree that the confusion of the teleports could be harmful to town, or at least not outweight the benefit. There has been little discussion if adding that was actually scummy, something you are saying now.

I don't see what farside's case has to do with my feelings about you. I have my own brain and my own thoughts. You can't defend against my suspicions on you by saying "that's not why farside thinks I'm scum." Total non-sequiter.

your post was towards her, then expressing why you think I'm scum. Just posted that for clarity.

What stands out in the above post is how Elvis appeases 2 players

: farside and gayle, and then still go for the easy target.

FoS Elvis

I'm not appeasing them. I think farside and gayle are both town and I think their suspicions are good. They are both pressuring people that I am suspicious of, although I am still more suspicious of CSL. To accuse me of pushing an easy target suggests I don't have good reason to vote him. I DO.

He softclaimed teleporter and didn't get NKed.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT MIGHT BE??? HMMMMMMMM?????11eleven

WTH. A confirmed towny got killed and this is your reason to vote CSL? Come on, you can fake better. And the "I agree with you, that he and she are scummy, but still I don't follow you because I find him more scummy", is appeasing.

[mykonian]

and elvis, btw, Fishy's points are much better to show my strategy was wrong.

[mykonian]

Elvis, what makes a teleporter so important?

(hint, we are all "backups")

[mykonian]

Just went through CSL in iso, and it requires quite a stretch to get to the idea that he softclaimed teleporter. He mentioned getting NK'ed, but only in the context of saying that he would be happy just living through Day 1 (ie, not getting lynched for once).

So...the "why is he still alive?" line of thought isn't terribly convincing to me.

I'm still liking evilsnail for my vote, meanwhile.

vote: evilsnail

this makes me slightly sad, after you've seen that reason for a vote is terrible.

Elvis, what makes a teleporter so important?

(hint, we are all "backups")

If the teleporter gets the NK, their night choice does not go through. If scum are trying to stay in their own universe, killing the teleporter as often as possible is a good strategy to prevent teleportation.

Myko, what makes the mason so important? All they can do is confirm themselves innocent (and their mason buddy, but that's in the other universe so the mafia here don't really care that much I would think).

I'll try to get the scum doesn't want to be teleported in my mind.

@Farside: I am finding it perfectly logical. Scum from Mafia 2 is not really a danger now. If the other universe wins, we can see how many of the teleports are scum/town. This plus that scum-elli probably doesn't kill here, means that we should wait for that information, and lynch Mafia 1 first.

Fishy's assumption that scum-elli would scumhunt is a little optimistic though.

[mykonian]

@Farside: I am finding it perfectly logical. Scum from Mafia 2 is not really a danger now. If the other universe wins, we can see how many of the teleports are scum/town. This plus that scum-elli probably doesn't kill here, means that we should wait for that information, and lynch Mafia 1 first.

I certainly don't want to be bombarded with scummy players from UO into our world. You know if they (the teleporter) teleports correctly and elli is scum the scum group maybe doesn't group but this means scum start to out weight town
It also seems the OU isn't thinking town if they didn't take DGB over to their side instead of giving us elli so don't mind me if I wish to ship someone they think is scum right back on them for screwing over the town here.

That was my first idea too, but elli, if he is scum, is practically powerless here. And when his buddies in the other universe would get caught, it would be clear one of them was here too.

In any way, your solution isn't that bad, but not necesary (and btw, just for the record: I proposed it first)

[mykonian]

@MOD

did you send the mafia a pm notifying them who was teleported. Or did you send them a list with targets that were available?

And Rhinox. The first is the from the point that we shouldn't lynch Elli (since he won't shoot, if he is scum). The second was against (mostly docpotters) idea that we should use crosskills to win the game.

It looks pretty weird this way, but the context is different. And both are arguing from the point that scumhunting for Mafia1 is our most important task.

[mykonian]

@myko: what else would scum-elli do except scumhunt? Pretty much his only chances of winning are either getting back to U2 or reducing U1 scum. I'd say the latter is well worth his while. I do agree that supposing he's going to be a serious protown force here is optimistic.

I think he will do what scum always does: trying not to get lynched/killed. He'll let the others deal with the mafia1.

@Ojanen. I don't know if I understood you right, but I thought Plum town for the way she investigated. Her conclusions were wrong (myko is scum), but she was scumhunting.

DGB had been on me for some time then, for bad reasons, and finally cast the vote based on Plums investigation. So I was definately not defending DGB.

How often have you seen scum follow town, on a bandwagon that isn't right? I believed that happened there.

PS: can we pull VP, btw. He really is too smart for the other universe, as I can see it. We could use him here.

[mykonian]

Raskol, where are you?

[mykonian]

Just went through CSL in iso, and it requires quite a stretch to get to the idea that he softclaimed teleporter. He mentioned getting NK'ed, but only in the context of saying that he would be happy just living through Day 1 (ie, not getting lynched for once).

So...the "why is he still alive?" line of thought isn't terribly convincing to me.

I'm still liking evilsnail for my vote, meanwhile.

vote: evilsnail

this makes me slightly sad, after you've seen that reason for a vote is terrible.

?

Here you are.

Well, you correctly analyzed that Elvis voted on a terrible reason, and then...

you vote evilsnail :/

[mykonian]

I know the case on CSL.

But that afterthought is plain wrong, still you use it. Why did you need that point with your vote?

I attack you on your points, how is that strawmanning?

[mykonian]

I know the case on CSL.

But that afterthought is plain wrong, still you use it. Why did you need that point with your vote?

I attack you on your points, how is that strawmanning?

You are attacking me on one point which was an afterthought and not part of my main case and call the whole case crap. Do you have a problem with my main points?

I have a problem with your afterthought and think you are scum for that and for going for an easy target with that, yes. The afterthought was unnecessary but you needed it for some reason. My guess was that you wanted a reason with your vote to make it look good. That is scummy.

You trying to pull this into a strawman is scummy.

[mykonian]

This is a bunch of manipulation, and summing up easy targets. I would look at DRK closely, I think he is scum.

Hello and welcome to this edition of Who's Da Scum! We have 3 lovely contestants today! And heeeeeeeeeeeeeeere they are!

Our first contestant votes haphazardly and without reason and he's STILL waiting for one to really stick. He disapproves of optimal town strategy

and likes getting stuck in the rain

. From Scummy McScummerville, Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!

Our second contestant hails from a faraway universe in a dragon-guarded castle. Don't worry about that though; he thinks you're town! Please welcome Ellllllliiiiiiiiiiiiiii!

Our third contestant is a real active lurker. He's 95.7% noise, 4.3% half-hearted scumhunting, Aniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!

[mykonian]

I am not talking about your case! I know CSL is scummy as hell, he is always scummy!

The question is, why did you need that horrible point? Why didn't you just leave it out? I think because you somehow thought it would benefit you.

[mykonian]

I think CSL is the ideal easy target, that is why I don't vote him.

And yes, I'm just assuming. Now you show that my assumption is wrong, or unlikely or something of the sort. So unfair? didn't think so. You are an intelligent girl, you could have seen that point was not protown. But still you used it. Because the goal was not to scumhunt, I think.

To say it is unfair to try to find your motives is seriously weird. And oh yes, WIFOM-defense. I love it.

[mykonian]

a point against Evilsnail is that he is quite active in a mini (at least, I see his name there quite often as last post), while there is little action here.

FoS Evilsnail.

[mykonian]

sorry, Ojanen, I'm a bit talkative. And I often get pulled into long arguments that really don't bring anything new

It has been worse (I have had games where I posted 1/3 of the posts day 1)

I try to solve this (the blue stuff that isn't that important, conciously not replying to every post), but I see it is not really working.

[mykonian]

I am not talking about your case! I know CSL is scummy as hell, he is always scummy!

So how do you plan to judge his allignment if you are just going to write off all his scumm behavior? And why didn't you admit this before? You were acting like I have no case for voting CSL, when I clearly do.

I'm expecting him to play different as scum, based on how I know CSL, I don't think he can hide it very well.

And I didn't answer because I thought you were more interested in the second part.

And I fully disagree with me being an easy lynch. Apart from the mistake, and in farside's case calling her a liar you don't have a single thing against me. Going after my theory discussion completely neglects what I did for searching scum, going after my theory discussion is actually kind of useless this far into the game (scum can hide in it way too easily, and all you pick out are the people that are weird)

So I dislike fishy calling me and him easy targets: seen the votes, Fishy clearly isn't, and he is way sensitive to the little pressure brought on him.

CSL is clearly an easy target. His playstyle is out of the ordinary, completely antitown, but antitown =/=scummy. Screaming that he is antitown is arguing for a policy lynch (if that is good or not is a different discussion), but pretending you have made a case on him based on those points is wrong. This is my only point against Rhinox, and an additional point against Elvis. I excuse rhinox because my gut says he is protown.

[mykonian]

Evilsnail, you are an experienced player.

Since when is consistency town?

[mykonian]

Dear lord the above from myko is one of the few times I agree with his assesment.

I thought we agreed quite often during the start of the game... Before our argument.

And Evil, you name it with your suspicion on DGB. As town, you wouldn't have to worry about consistancy, but as scum you really want to show you aren't blatantly bandwagonning...

[mykonian]

You don't listen about CSL's meta, do you. You just hammer on about what you said already, without listening to anything.

and now we have this. Seriously. Is this your attempt to look town by switching your vote now and then by "scumhunting"?

Well that makes me like my vote less...

unvote csl; vote popsofctown

Pops is not scum hunting this game. He's making a lot of jokes, off-topic comments about avatars or whatever. I am fine with jokes and banter, but not if you don't also scum hunt. He's not asking many questions, and if he does ask questions they don't seem very probing. Like he's not trying. He's not engaging people in discussion to try to find out their allignment. He's sitting there, making a few half-hearted attempts, and making sure people like him because he's saying funny stuff.

And now he's like "I don't see and obvscum, so vote CSL. BTW CSL has been ridiculously scummy this game." If he's been ridiculously scummy, why isn't he obvscum? I don't get it. I don't think pops is helping.

[mykonian]

uhm, yes, that was the plan. I'm going to drag arguments in the game all game long, seeing what makes enough sense, what not. What is not important I probably forget, what I need I will remember.

But the problem is, the longer the game, the more I remember the conclusions, and the less the actual answer.

The lurkers:

Ojanen: decent, basically null-read. If I have time I should read a few games, otherwise I have no idea.
Raskol: lurking scum
CSL: Posts less then what I had expected, but not concious about being scum. Leaning town.
Evilsnail: started very well, can't keep up, as I see it. Compared to Raskol, he is attacked after lurking, raskol lurks after being attacked.
Hoopla: replaced in, I expect something from her.
Same counts for Elli. Both null-reads.

The rest:

Farside: I begin to doubt my read here. She does try hard, and I think the way she reacted was as she would react as town. (while it would be very conveniant to act that way as scum)
Elvis: scum
Popsofctown: started out very well, and I sadly don't see a continuation of that. But I thought him town.
Fishy: I really had good feelings about him, and I thought I saw some scumhunting from him. I don't really see the case, though he is a little nervous about it. Still, town.
Rhinox: always town. Don't ask me, I won't get a read him until I have played multiple games, or talked with him in private.

I think that was everybody, right? And sadly, everything is probably already in the thread, since "I post too much"

[mykonian]

gayle: lurker, no read.

[mykonian]

Mykonian, I actually am listening. I am asking you about CSL's meta and you haven't given me anything concrete except to say that you *think* he would play differently as scum. I'm still open to hearing something more specific.

As for my vote change... what exactly is your problem with it? Because it seems like you are saying that I am trying to look town by changing my vote. WTF does that even mean? Do you disagree with my reasoning for voting pops? Do you think pops

is

scum hunting? Because those would be valid reasons to argue with me at this point. Whatever the heck you just said is not.

So here you go again attacking me when I attack people for valid reasons. You aren't even arguing with me that my reasons are wrong, but tossing out some bullshit like I am choosing an easy target or that I am trying to appear town.

I haven't seen a scumgame of him, I have just talked a few times with him in private. He is the kind of person who would get excited with a scumrole, and that can be seen in the way he posts. I totally don't see that here.

Pops had a pretty good start of the game. He was one of the towniest players in the start of the game. Now you vote him for this, after he
voted CSL because he is an easy target.

This was the thing I accused you of when you voted CSL! Pops, if you remember, actually asked for a

policy lynch

. You are a hypocrite, and you are just looking for a way to savely place your vote. In doing so, you place it on someone who has played very towny during day one, and I can't see how you so suddenly can jump on pops as town.

[mykonian]

It appears that I disagree with mykonian in his reads, in his game strategy, and in his idea of what is scummy and what is not. So... everything.

You have totally not the idea that Raskol is scummy?

No, you disagree that I find you scummy. And I have no idea why you posted this.

[mykonian]

Don't you think that information is a little... unreliable since you haven't even see him play a scum game?

uhm, no? All I need from meta is to see how people will react in certain situations. I have to have a basic understanding how someone thinks.

Pops had a pretty good start of the game. He was one of the towniest players in the start of the game. Now you vote him for this, after he
voted CSL because he is an easy target.

I didn't vote pops because he vote for CSL "the easy target." I don't htink CSL is such an easy target. He's doing nothing and not getting lynched. He even has people like you defending him!

ok, I'll restate: you voted pops, partly, because you thought his vote on CSL bad.

And I think there is definitely scum on the DGB wagon, which was:
Mykonian

ABR

pops
fishy
plum
rhinox

Much of the case on DGB was crap sandwich of meta assumptions. Which makes me pretty sure there is scum there. I'm open to discussion of who that is though, if you have different ideas.

oh, this is so easy! Just discredit the bunch because they were on a confirmed towny.

Now, many of those players (except ABR) got onto that wagon in a way that was much prettier then your vote on CSL this day, and your vote on pops. There were more arguments then meta on her (As I have little knowledge how she plays, I never used the argument, and I think the same was for Fishy). This generalisation is a nice diversion, and sure, it is true that it isn't unlikely that there was scum on the wagon, but putting it this way is plain wrong.

This was the thing I accused you of when you voted CSL! Pops, if you remember, actually asked for a

policy lynch

. You are a hypocrite, and you are just looking for a way to savely place your vote. In doing so, you place it on someone who has played very towny during day one, and I can't see how you so suddenly can jump on pops as town.

I'm not voting pops for the reason you are voting me. So... yeah. You're wrong. I'm not a hypocrite. You're posting assumptions about me like they're reasons. All of your reads actually seem based on assumptions. Like "CSL is town because he always acts this scummy and I think he would be more excited if he were scum."

uhm, yes? All cases are based on assumptions. The likelyness of those assumptions mostly determines the case, as logic is usually easy. In a game where you know nothing, you have to assume things.

It is ok to attack those assumptions, and say they are likely wrong. But you don't do that, you attack me that I make them. I'm sorry, but without assumptions we are getting nowhere. Understanding those assumptions is actually a great tool for scumhunting, since scum will use wrong assumptions with correct logic to fake cases. (hence Fishy's tell that he is more logic as scum: it is easier to fake cases that way)

[mykonian]

Good point!

Elli gets towny points!

[mykonian]

ok, here you see the negative side of not posting all the reasons with the vote, but having them over multiple posts.

Early game arguments against DGB were in iso 11, 12, 16 (I didn't bother to get the mess of our argument with that too)

And the hammer was already reasoned for earlier, in case there was no counterclaim.

Further, I thought the other universe had all night to choose who to send/pull

mod, can you confirm this?

so more time would have given nothing but a game that wasn't moving.

[mykonian]

Good point!

Elli gets towny points!

Wat

I wouldn't have found it, and I would very much like Evil to reply to it.

[mykonian]

aren't gut reads something that becomes valuable when you are playing longer?

Why would you ever stop using them when you finally have them working, or are used to scumhunting based on that?

[mykonian]

nah, I agree with you:

unvote vote evilsnail.

[mykonian]

Myko: Although I find myself disagreeing with him on every fundamental level, I somehow get the feeling he is sincere. I don't agree with his logic or thinking in many instances, but I really think he believes inwhat he's saying.

By many people, I'm seen as a logical person. In case you don't get what I'm saying, this usually means I didn't type up logical steps (I try to avoid this, but I also don't want my posts to become too long).

And what does "off the wall" mean?

[mykonian]

Ojanen, that looks promising.

vote Rhinox

.

Rhinox, why again was your catchup post for 80% about me or the question I asked?

Pops, Rhinox is someone who has no problem playing town. It are the small things that matter, not the overall impression, you probably won't find him with that.

Gayle, I don't mislead. Please quote it. And posting is not a scumtell.

Fishy, what was that vote?

I still am up for a Raskol-lynch. He won't get away lurking, but last time it wasn't too popular. I think he is a very good lynch.

[mykonian]

Last post of hoopla feels scummy. Can't exactly say why always, but it seems a very conveniant post for scum. IGMEOY. Lets see what happens next with hoopla.

BTW, are we again going to try to fill the thread till deadline, or are we going to try to lynch based on the 47 pages we have? Several people have already posted that (myk's) postcount is a problem for reading the game. With teleports coming, who all need to read the game, and with hoopla, could it maybe be an idea if we for once didn't wait for the deadline?

And I hate the one who now brings up the "more time more information" thing. More information yes, but even more reading. The information is harder to find.

[mykonian]

Mykonian, why are you rushing the lynch?

Deadline is nine days away. I see no reason why we should rush. I also don't think that we should draw things out for no reason. I agree that more isn't always better,

but I don't see a reason to cut off discussion now.

And I could care less about teleports having a hard time reading the thread. I'm not going to cut of discussion to help somebody catchup who may very well be scum (that's what the OU is trying to do, send us scum). Even if the teleport is not scum, we can't help it if the thread is long. We are a chatty bunch! Too bad.

I think we should just lynch when we are ready. Things haven't stagnated yet. There are still people who need to contribute more.

a: ...
b: I am not cutting off, I am asking for a more constructive (as in, with the lynch as goal) arguing and voting. Most information comes out of the final part of the day anyway, when the game is more serious. Then there comes real pressure on the scum.

And this is the standard response. Why are you rushing? I am not. Nothing I say says: "we should lynch now!". What I said was "lets work towards a lynch now!". The last makes the town a lot more productive, since there are way too many wagons now that could be more or less succesful, and in the end, it is usually the wagon that was in the spotlights the last that will become the lynch. If we start earlier with finding the correct lynch, in stead of having to haste with a short deadline, we should be more succesful.

Lets put my vote with my words:

unvote vote Raskol

his disappearance is just too conveniant, after there was a good case on him. I would be very happy if he got lynched.

[mykonian]

see the word "try". We are now not trying to lynch, we are gathering information.

And Elvis, I know. This is my problem, I have no clear direction, and I somewhat hoped to solve this. I just have too many people that could be scum.

and I switch because I see the cases, but my head suspect (raskol) is not interesting to the rest. I'd rather get some bandwagon there going, but I can't get that to work. My vote shows where my suspicions are. I rarely use FoS's (although I did it here sometimes) because people just read over them, and a vote is taken more serious. And people can call you on them, which can hardly be done with a FoS. So it makes it easier to check what I'm doing.

[mykonian]

apart from the fact that assumed that scum doesn't want to get teleported, my theory could favor scum, what have I done that was antitown? Asking for a serious game, in stead of waiting for information during day two? Didn't think so.

Elvis, you know you have only one point against me, and that is the mistake. Now quit the "He is weird but he might actually be town"-stuff, because you are just keeping an opening to vote me in case of a wagon on me. One without reason: Because. I. am. not. scummy.

And mindfuck is probably not a nice word, I rather don't have you calling me names.

[mykonian]

I'm not calling you a name. I'm saying you fuck with my mind, and make it hard for me to judge you.

If you really want me to list all the ways that I disagree with you and find you anti-town I will do that later as I don't have the time right now. But I have disagreed with you on several points. Your anti-town plans regarding telportation, your WIFOM read of CSL, your recent "hurry up and lynch" plan for us, and your "let's stop bandwagoning so many people while I start a totally new bandwagon," and how you are now voting then unvoting for apparently no reason (seeing as the people you vote haven't even posted yet before you move on to the next vote).

I saw it as a negative word, sorry.

WIFOM read of CSL: I believe that meta should be used to check which tells show someone is scum. I believe that scum-CSL has other tells then he shows, based on how I know CSL. Meta is an aid to resolve WIFOM.

So, meta read of CSL, please.

Hurry up and get serious, I prefer. In the same spirit I put my vote for who I seriously want to lynch, in stead of using my vote on other people who are scummy too, but who aren't my first choice. I don't see how this is anti town, tbh.

And you show how I vote who I think scummy: everybody knows where I stand, as votes are the clearest point you can make. I'm sorry, but I'm know to do that. And it isn't even antitown. It just upsets a lot of people, and they all give different reasons for it.

[mykonian]

I forgot if I got an answer on that. I can´t remember. So in case you forgot, you could answer now, otherwise you could just answer the same.

I believe that if someone is basing his read on you based on overall play, he will always think you town. Your posts are clear, your arguments well thought through, and all you need to do further is to have some new ideas to look protown.

You have to analyze closer to catch you as scum, I think.

[mykonian]

ok, short defense:

2nd link, you missed the point, it is the same point as the "scumslip" I thought to have found with DGB. She argued against, but did claim to have found scum with it.

I have no idea what is scummy about those arguments.

I found ABR scummy for his anti counterclaim strategy, which could only have been protown in case he was the mason.

I voted multiple people. Why am I scummy? What is the scum benefit, or why am I antitown for that? On both there is no answer: the answer it is my playstyle.

mhmm. I like to work on the lynch quite early in the day, since serious wagons give me most information vote-wise. Hoopla's try with bandwagons that are just 3 members long are not very effective.

I'll quote my answer to the crosskill "contradiction" tomorrow, as I really have no time no to search for the quote. Further, the theory points are not tells. It is your job to show why I'm scum, not just linking every post I proposed something new.

odd =/= scummy

.

The only mistake I can have made is if Elvis is correct, and scum wants to stay together. I hadn't thought of that.

[mykonian]

myko...

and while Elli starts out scummy (see rhinox's post) I think we are better off leaving him. Best course of action IMO is to send him back tonight. Even if that doesn't happen,

we should leave him for the chance on crosskills.

About crosskills. I wanted that I could share your optimism, but I don't see scum going for scummy players that are zapped in. Neither do I see the new scum shooting other then players that are likely town.

>_>

And Rhinox. The first is the from the point that we shouldn't lynch Elli (since he won't shoot, if he is scum). The second was against (mostly docpotters) idea that we should use crosskills to win the game.

It looks pretty weird this way, but the context is different. And both are arguing from the point that scumhunting for Mafia1 is our most important task.

Gayle used this straigt from Rhinox. Gayle, I understand this can go wrong, but a little theory here:

Contradictions are a special case of the LAL-arguments. They are arguments in this game because they seem pretty convincing, as there

seem

to be 2 or more statements from a player that say something entirely different.

However, these tells are quite ineffective, as both scum and town have totally nothing to gain with it (so it will be a mistake anyway). Then, very few contradictions actually exist. All these arguments usually are started because people don't understand each other good enough. tl;dr, be a little bit careful with arguments like this.

I have no idea what is scummy about those arguments.

Because they are complete nonsense.

That means you don't understand them. What is scummy about those arguments?

I found ABR scummy for his anti counterclaim strategy, which could only have been protown in case he was the mason.

The reason you gave for voting ABR was "yep, I see no counterclaim from ABR: he is likely scum.". That is not "his anti-counter claim strategy is scummy".

it is implied. I can't argue that you should be lynched because you didn't counterclaim.

You first have to do something that makes the counterclaim expected.

I voted multiple people. Why am I scummy? What is the scum benefit, or why am I antitown for that? On both there is no answer: the answer it is my playstyle.

What makes it scummy are your reasons for voting.

I agreed on some cases, I have a large case on raskol who after that disappeared (something you conveniantly forgot). Are you going to argue that saying "I agree, good case, vote" is bad? You probably can make something nice out of that, but it is what I thought then, so it is what I do. I am not going make an extra point because that is expected...

mhmm. I like to work on the lynch quite early in the day, since serious wagons give me most information vote-wise. Hoopla's try with bandwagons that are just 3 members long are not very effective.

Are you saying that less discussion gives you more information?

stereotype. I believe that more discussion makes usefull information harder to find, and that information without pressure from the lynch is less interesting then information close to a lynch.

The only mistake I can have made is if Elvis is correct, and scum wants to stay together. I hadn't thought of that.

I'll try to get the scum doesn't want to be teleported in my mind.

oh, ok. Didn't think of it that way. That could make sense (if your suspicion is correct)

Why would you think that scum wanted to be seperated?

I never thought they would care. Where did I say they liked to be separated?

[mykonian]

There's only so much 'discussion' the human mind has the ability to critically analyse. Once there is too much, people resort to out-of-context isoreads and summaries of previous events to base their reads on. I'm not saying lynch quickly. I'm saying don't waste 20+ pages per lynch, because every day we get someone new who has to read it all, and won't be able to use the information effectively anyway.

The post count is growing so fast because

other people

are scum hunting. You are telling everyone else to slow down in order to benefit you. When you replaced into the game it became

your

responsibility to keep up, not everyone else's responsibility to slow down.

WRONG. Replacements are life, don't annoy them. The game is hard to read, and is long. The least you can do is helping them getting into the game, because they replace for you. The same with teleportation, only is that is something inside the game, while replacements are from outside the game.

Further, with 150/1200 I have made about 1/8 of the posts, with an average of over 14 players. Does this mean I'm scumhunting? (Please answer this, because I love the question. Or you have to admit you are attacking someone who is scumhunting a lot, or you have to admit that posting can very well be useless. With both I have no problem )

[mykonian]

I am voting raskol, for my early case (avoidance, bad votes, clearly seeking a way for his votes), then lurking out.

Sadly, he is replaced now, so I don't see anything happening there. I fear this person will become instantly "neutral" again.

And the solution is simple,

don't attack me multiple times with the same point.

Then I won't have to clarify and clarify.

[mykonian]

I won't.

[mykonian]

Seems like another innocent victim of the girls' club. I don't remember anything against him making sense, but he gets attacked all the time.

I seem to make people that way. Though it can be solved easily:

Whoever posts a case, please don't only quote posts, but argue why that certain post is scummy. In case your reasoning from post to scumminess is too unlikely, please leave it out for readability.

Reasoning from info-> scumminess always include meta, since you usually can't say something is scummy unless that person would do so as scum, or wouldn't do so as town. (general meta can be used), and it usually is about how likely someone is to make a mistake

If all this works, you actually have a good argument. And this eliminates

a lot

of the points against me

[mykonian]

Also note that Csl is posting in his other games and is avoiding this one.

you want to policy lynch him?

[mykonian]

GAYLE: read the explanation of your "contradiction" Don't stupidly hammer on with your "fixed" which is plain stupid.

Further, I see very little "misleading" here. You simply did it off as "I saw that happening in his discussions/debates". Now you did have to come up with something, and this is the mess it gives.

That means you don't understand them. What is scummy about those arguments?

You don't believe there is anything wrong with claiming that you are town just because you attacked a specific player? Or immediately claiming that a player is trying to look town by voting and posting reasons for said vote?

your interpretation. I never said, nor meant that. I think I have once said it would be stupid to say someone lied, and it was not very smart to provoke someone you know would react extremely. I did anyway. Never I claim to be town.

it is implied. I can't argue that you should be lynched because you didn't counterclaim.

You first have to do something that makes the counterclaim expected.

You previously argued that the problems between DGB and ABR were personal. You argued multiple times that this should be obvious to anyone. You even suggested using our teleporter to alleviate the problem. When the town turned against ABR, you no longer found it personal?

There was never a choice between lynching or teleporting. when I stated the teleportation, it didn't look like the problem would be solved by a lynch of one of them. So I argued for the teleportation of one of them. When ABR didn't want the counterclaim to happen, that was scummy, yes. I waited with the vote for a counterclaim from him.

Are you going to argue that saying "I agree, good case, vote" is bad?

Yes.

your problem, not mine. The only way you can argue for that is in case someone doesn't bring anything new: I did. You act like I have to prove myself

stereotype. I believe that more discussion makes useful information harder to find, and that information without pressure from the lynch is less interesting then information close to a lynch.

Do you disagree that the more discussion there is, the more useful information there is to find?

you don't read. The harder it is to find as there is more rubbish.

I never thought they would care. Where did I say they liked to be separated?

The point isn't that you said "Scum want to be separated", the point is that you are claiming that it never occurred to you that scum would not want to be separated.

Exactly. It never did.

[mykonian]

ok, I hate to pull out this argument, as this is going to hurt my next games, but:

meta
meta
meta

First one was the clearest, I thought. In case you don't want to read it: people's gut read on me is too often that I'm manipulating scum. Then they are going to try to find arguments with it, usually resulting in as many completely different cases as there are votes on me, ending with the mislynch.

Contrary to the amount of posting and scumhunting I try to do in those games, I am often the first or second lynch.

Now, this is such a sad story, but that part is my problem, and I'm working on that. But if your problem with me is essentially that your gut says I'm manipulating, then I'm afraid you have found my normal playstyle

[mykonian]

Mykonian, I keep getting metalynched all of the time. I'm used to it.

I pretend to work on a solution, but till now I have only found two solutions: play with the intention not to get lynched (mad libbed mafia), or as a subcatagory: (active)lurk a bit.

Both are, in my opinion not right ways to take, even if the current meta doesn't accept this playstyle. I'd rather not make it worse then what I have now.

[mykonian]

Further, I see very little "misleading" here. You simply did it off as "I saw that happening in his discussions/debates". Now you did have to come up with something, and this is the mess it gives.

Look at those points under arguments. They are misleading. You mislead whenever someone attacks you. You flip attacks into your attacker being scummy or you respond to attacks with a flurry of posts or you try to discredit an attack with theory discussion. Even in this back and forth between me and you have been misleading. When I say "It is strange that the thought that

scum don't want to be teleported didn't occur to you

", you respond with "I never said scum wanted to be teleported".

yes. You ask the question, which I correct with what I explained before, with what I thought. Your question had nothing to do with my play, it is a strawman.

your problem, not mine. The only way you can argue for that is in case someone doesn't bring anything new: I did. You act like I have to prove myself

You

do

have to prove that you are scum hunting and not just latching onto someone else's case.

I am talking about general play. You aren't. If I agree with someone, I am going to say that. If I have nothing to add, I am not going to make something up.

Exactly. It never did.

I find that hard to believe. Especially since you keep mentioning how you didn't think of it.

That is the same, isn't it? I never thought they would mind=>never thought about scum's motives with teleports. So it never occurred to me scum would have problems with it. Scums main motivation is to stay alive, and this seemed to have nothing to do with it.

[mykonian]

Mykonian, can you please only argue about things that matter? TIA.

Weren't you the "posts is information person"?

and to me, defense and answering questions matters. And because a lot of what I say gets misinterpreted anyway, I can better get solid reasonings in my post, making them long. NOT MY PROBLEM.

[mykonian]

put me in the lurking catagory for now. I have nothing to comment on after my recent posts and I'm tired. Though I still want my answer from Rhinox, even if it already answered earlier in the thread, I forgot.

CSL

FOR ONCE, TRY.


For the record: Elli is likely scum. His voting shows that, I think. I don't know if we should be so mean to send CSL back. Maelyn is probably better. People who want to lynch CSL just should admit it is a policy lynch, and then I'm fine with it, but pretending you actually have a good case while ignoring CSL's meta is wrong, and easy.

I think a pull would be beneficial. I still believe VP to be a good pick, who is in the wrong universe. I don't see why we shouldn't do that now, as we have to pull one out of three anyway, and as he seems towny to me, we make scums job quite a bit harder (good scumhunter + likely towny = scumproblem). Further, as the second scumteam is not likely to kill here, more players mean more mislynches= good.

And if I have missed anything: Pops case didn't change, right? still the weak day 2 play?

I am going back to unconciousness now.

[mykonian]

which means it might actually be a good strategy to pull as many as possible to here, letting scum win there, hopefully with as many members left as possible.

I have no idea if this even works, but I don't see why it would be worse then sending scummy players to there. Maybe I will tomorrow. Goodnight.

[mykonian]

Sadely I'm starting to think myko is town that just isn't thinking properly.

I love you too...

[mykonian]

Sadely I'm starting to think myko is town that just isn't thinking properly.

I love you too...

You have been really all over the place in your thoughts and most I found wrong but decidedly even though I don't agree with more then half you said you are scum hunting and trying to weed out those you get scum vibes/tells from.

yeah, that sounds a lot nicer. And more accurate.

When I have time I'll try to get my thoughts organized in one post, but since I'm posting from school, and I had problems with my internet at home, I don't know when that will be here (latest: next weekend)

[mykonian]

totally not feeling this wagon. And I'm missing a lot of people.

Mod

raskol requested replacement, right?

Can something be done about mealyn?

Since CSL, Farside, Elli and Elvis are on this wagon, I'm even more against this wagon.

Evilsnail

, why are you on Fishy?


A lynch might be what we need here, the game died. Its a shame that happened, but we are missing half of the game. And while I disagree with a pops lynch, I disagree too with a CSL lynch, which means pops is probably going to be it...

[mykonian]

Since CSL, Farside, Elli and Elvis are on this wagon, I'm even more against this wagon.

I really don't get why you believe EK or myself to be scum. 2 people I have a full town read is on pops wagon. You said yourself you had a town read on fishy. What exactly do you need to believe pops is scum at this point?

that is 4 against, 1 in favor. I think fishy made a mistake here. There are too many people jumping on this wagon because it is there.

[mykonian]

duh, that doesn't mean he doesn't like to jump on wagons, which makes this wagon longer then it should be.

I don't get why you people think scum would ever play another way then selfish.

Yep, CSL just jumps on because he can. And like I said before I actually think he is town...

And would you mind if I skip this one to the next weekend, when I can take my time for it? It kind of requires me to go over my posts again. And I simply don't feel like doing it now, tomorrow I have to travel home again, and maybe I'll make it then, but I expect it to be this weekend.

[mykonian]

we don't agree on the scumminess, but we do agree about the antitown play?

Policy is the only reason we can lynch CSL. And sending him is alike sending any lurker we have now. And finally messing with the other universe (although not productive) would feel good.

[mykonian]

[Ani's original post]

Ani, I'm very sorry, but this isn't the right thread.

[mykonian]

Yep, CSL just jumps on because he can. And like I said before

I actually think he is town

...

Policy is the only reason we can lynch CSL. And sending him is alike sending any lurker we have now. And finally messing with the other universe (although not productive) would feel good.

unvote, vote myko

If you think he is town, you should not want to send him to the OU regardless of how he is playing. That is willingly removing someone you believe to be town from our universe, which would bring mafia closer to a majority.

Also, weren't you just arguing a little while ago that pulling someone would be beneficial? Why now are you so pro-tele CSL? linky

you are really really really trying hard to make a case on me.

I have nowhere said that I want to teleport CSL specifically, I have said that teleporting him would be alike teleporting any other lurker (who weren't named at that time), and a reason would be to mess with them, but nothing helpfull.

I have never said I think CSL scum. I have only said, multiple times, that people saying the have a case on CSL are arguing for a policy lynch, since they haven't got a bit, since none of them uses CSL's meta.

So this series of misinterpretations and strawmans is really horrible. It is not hard to show inconsistencies this way, Rhinox, if you misinterprete half of what I'm saying.

Goodnight, and I'll hope to have ordened thoughts tomorrow.

[mykonian]

By the way, with CSL it seems as if he is activly trying to get us to teleport him into the OU. I don't know why anyone would want to get teleported as a strategy, but I don't think we should ablidge him anyways.

Why?

The only reason I can think of is that he lives longer that way.

And gayle, you don't find replacements for games this big, though it would be a good idea.

[mykonian]

So this series of misinterpretations and strawmans is really horrible. It is not hard to show inconsistencies this way, Rhinox, if you misinterprete half of what I'm saying.

I have no idea how this feels. How about you EK you know how this feel?

Oh, I'm so very sorry for you, and your sad problems.

And this doesn't have anything to do with Rhinox clearly doing it here. And you wait for your turn. You can say I misinterpreted you for a whole page long after I got everything ordened in one post.

[mykonian]

Day 2 Vote Count

CSL ( 1 ) popsofctown
elvis_knits ( 0 )
evilsnail ( 0 )
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 1 ) evilsnail
Hoopla ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
mykonian ( 1 ) Rhinox
ojanen ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 7 ) gayle elvis_knits fishythefish Ellibereth farside22 CSL Hoopla
Raskol ( 1 ) mykonian
Rhinox ( 1 ) ojanen
Maelyn ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 2 ) Raskol Maelyn
Total Votes ( 14 )

With 14 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: Feb 22nd 19:00 EST

So this series of misinterpretations and strawmans is really horrible. It is not hard to show inconsistencies this way, Rhinox, if you misinterprete half of what I'm saying.

I have no idea how this feels. How about you EK you know how this feel?

Oh, I'm so very sorry for you, and your sad problems.

And this doesn't have anything to do with Rhinox clearly doing it here. And you wait for your turn. You can say I misinterpreted you for a whole page long after I got everything ordened in one post.

You misinterperted myself many pages ago. I don't feel like rehashing this unless you feel up for it.
But I'm waiting in baited breathe for that why I'm scum post. It should be most entertaining.

yeah, but I'm sorry, you'll have to wait for it. It is past midnight now, and I know my posts get worse then.

@Elvis. I don't really mind, I have read the first 2 days a bit, but
A they are losing
B my playstyle really wouldn't fit.

Plus that teleporting someone in is better (get their townies out).

Elvis, you are employing the DGB strategy, aren't you? Repeating it often enough and it becomes true?

[mykonian]

I haven't really read the last day, sorry.

But I'm sure on that amount of players there must be one.

[mykonian]

Everything in blue is not related to hunting scum, and can be skipped, if you are short on time.

what are your scumtells when you are scum?

Oh come on this question sucks why should I share my scum tells to hurt me in other games?
I can already hear the people ready to lynch me for the above but telling people your scum tells does hurt you for other games.
idk I range with being quiet, lurky to talkative depending on the game. I do bus my scum partner on many occasions I can think of. I think I jump on cases just with a me too kind of post at times if I feel lost in a game and I don't know where else to go. I notice I don't try to motivate a game and I purposly miss things that are scum tells from my partner if I think they are safe from a lynch or being voted on.
Obviously my scum tell is on a wide range because acting the same in a game means people know you to be scum and use that meta against you.

Although I find your next post nice (you agree with me, finally, someone!), this one just gives me the creeps. If you would be town, there would be nothing to worry about. You could just tell your scumtells. Because acting antitown as towny to protect your scumplay is not done, and the way I know you, you also wouldn't lurk or do other scummy things to protect your scumplay. Then we get a series of scumtells that I know you would avoid if possible (jumping on a wagon with a "me too") and that you are often bussing seems to be a save thing to say as scum. Further, you keep it very general. I can't see someone who loves the game this much doing this as town.

FoS Farside

. But pluspoints for actually answering the question as first player.

Later we get the discussion where farside thinks she should be called townie, just as Fishy based on her thinking that those answers are identical. I disagree.

Bolded is mine. And take your time replying to it, I should be sleeping. I'll take a look in the morning.

mykonian

-

myko talks about scumhunting will win the game but talks about stragdy of the game right after.

are you accusing me of not scumhunting, or even active lurking. Please tell.

interesting:

Evilsnail: I am not going to answer my own question if nobody wants the answer

.

a few people answered this question why refuse to answer yourself?

Posting something that isn't going to be read is a waste of everyones time, and just fills the thread

Well you did answer in this post actually so the comment leaves me in a lot of pondering

myko why did you vote from DGB to raskol and with such a hypocritcal statement as this:

You completely forgot what you did with fishy, and went for the next target, with a less then spectacular case. Where are you going to run next?

Farside, please tell my what is hyporcritical about this. Hint: check the argument. There is something wrong, and it was talked about in the defense.

I love how myko says he didn't want to read the ou but clearly is.

I don't think I ever said that. I did say I don't expect everyone to do so, simply because it would be hard to keep up. As you know, from time to time I have way too much time to waste, so I hope it won't be a problem for me.

myko why would you switch you vote to CSL?

I would vote him for mindlessly bandwagonning and then hopping of as soon as it seems to fail, with an enigmatic: it has served it's purpose

The case on DGB is terrible. Speaking from what you posted as a case I can point to a time DGB said scum day talked and she was town. It's a null tell.

Lots of defending from myko

and I didn't find a case that was really well thought out excpet raskol case.

both are easily explained. I almost never make a post simply to restate the arguments against someone. A "case" like that you won't often find with me, only when I feel I really need to convince people (close to a deadline, or something like that). My arguments are often divided over multiple posts, posted as I find them. You'll find that I have had opinions about far more people then only Raskol, something you try to insinuate here.

And I would like you to quote what you thought my case on DGB. Because I don't believe I have posted one.

Now I read through this, I'm sorry farside, but it are OMGUS-like feelings that made my gut read on you this way. The case is subjective as hell, the blue points are points made by others already. Both blue points are also no points against me, as it is both times a miscommunication (I did answer, and it wasn't hypocritical because I returned my vote to Raskol, and switched later one time his name with Rhinox).

All the red sentences are most likely to trigger my Scum-alarm. There are strawmans (only picking out my reaction against DGB's daytalk argument, and calling that my case on DGB), misinterpretations (the myko will not read the OU), and several points that are accusing me of active lurking, which is plain insane. But will all this, Farside never FoS's me, votes me, or even calls me scummy. It is just one big manipulative post that shows how bad I am, but Farside never commits herself to it (this is good english, I hope).

Later posts I leave out (the argument about the first post, I made a short version there)

short version of the above

Most of my scum feelings came from that post, and yes, that probably is because I very much dislike the case on me. But because farside had had no problems with me before, and this were her first points, I saw that as farside beginning to doubt me, while she later confirms this was a full case on me.

My iso 84 is where I say I thought farside had me as town.

I remember one (last thing with farside), when you said that made me scum. I had quoted a post there where I pointed out what was wrong, and why. I don't think I would do that as scum, aggressively investigating Farside, as I know her a bit. It is kind of foolish to attack farside, since you will get a response. It is her nature.

You talking about the so called case saying I was following people and was full of crap and I called you on and then backtracked and tried to almost subtely use the too townie idea without saying it?

You make it a so called case: because I didn't. I explained my reasons why you moved up my scumlist.

It wasn't full of crap, you didn't reply to half the points, and the FACT that you directly copied two questions in that post are showing I was in fact right. I haven't backtracked, since those points couldn't and werent explained. I have absolutely no idea how I have subtely used the too townie idea there. I don't think you too towny, so that is most likely you trying to read manipulation in my posts. (seen the subtility, you had to search for it)

So this post full of strong language perfectly hides that I had valid points against you.

And here my feelings get confirmed again. I have good points against her (the points taken from Evil and Rhinox), which got strawmanned (I believe intentionally) by farside to being direct copies of the text.

That way she can say I'm backtracking. Further, the language is really over the top. This is basically screaming popular words (Backtracking, too townie, full of crap) without admitting she indeed did use Rhinox and Evils points. iso 105 is about this, with also points about the first quote of this post.

There is a but. A pretty large one, I think. Farside is one of the few that is active, lately

[mykonian]

Farside, this time I was very careful not to use the word "copies", but I used "used points of". Don't drag me into this again.

And all your replying points were basically already in the post. I have been trying to stay objective...

[mykonian]

Less pointless bickering.

Agreed.

Following a player is a tell because you don't bring anything new, while pretending to be. This way scum pretends to be scumhunting.

[mykonian]

Mykonian, you parking your vote on Raskol who needs replacement is sort of pointless, IMO.

Elvis, I have been very clear I feel there are better lynches then Pops. I disagree with the lynch. Take a look at the votecount, you would say I was vote-parking anyway.

am I scummy for not wanting this lynch?

Further, you questioned me multiple times a few pages ago about the use of some of my votes, and I told you they showed who I suspected. None of them is going to be lynched today, so I keep my symbolic vote on the player I suspect most (for a case, and after that the lurking).

So yeah, I have no idea why you esspecially say this, because it is slightly insane, also seen that I have stated that I have a town read on pops from the first day. (clarification in case someone wants to twist this. My town-read comes from that day, not that I have stated it from then).

[mykonian]

There could be a benefit in that the bandwagon of Pops essentially formed twice. The slowness of the wagon at first gave scum enough time to bus.

Further, I believe CSL is bandwagonning anyway, and Pops would have been daring to ask for a policy lynch on his own buddy, because esspecially with CSL, it might actually have worked.

Day 2 Vote Count

CSL ( 1 ) popsofctown
elvis_knits ( 0 )
evilsnail ( 0 )
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 1 ) evilsnail
Hoopla ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
mykonian ( 1 ) Rhinox
ojanen ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 7 ) gayle elvis_knits fishythefish Ellibereth farside22 CSL Hoopla
Raskol ( 1 ) mykonian
Rhinox ( 1 ) ojanen
Maelyn ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 2 ) Raskol Maelyn
Total Votes ( 14 )

With 14 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: Feb 22nd 19:00 EST

Day 2 Final Vote Count

CSL ( 1 ) popsofctown
elvis_knits ( 0 )
evilsnail ( 0 )
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 0 )
Hoopla ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
mykonian ( 1 ) Rhinox
ojanen ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 0 )

popsofctown ( 9 ) gayle elvis_knits CSL farside22 fishythefish evilsnail ojanen Hoopla Ellibereth

Raskol ( 1 ) mykonian
Rhinox ( 0 )
Maelyn ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 2 ) Raskol Maelyn
Total Votes ( 14 )

popsofctown the Mafia A Goon was lynched

The Deadline for all night actions is Wednesday, February 24th at 10:35am EST. Any actions not in by this time will be counted as "no action"

Esspecially Hoopla, evilsnail, and ojanen should be in our attention, following this theory. Farside is less likely to be scum seen pops flip.

And now I have to reread.

[mykonian]

that has been talked over already. You wanted me to repeat it?

But when I have a pile of information this big that I have to investigate, I'm not going to focus on what just happened only.

I want to do a reread, with knowing that pops is scum. I am sure it will make our job easier.

[mykonian]

I find that to be incredibly useless, though the easy way of doing it.

Scum is often, esspecially closer to the lynch, very concious about what they are saying. But if you look at the reactions to pops made by others, you might find some people more likely town, and some people more likely scum.

[mykonian]

Strategy talk is distracting us from scumhunting

Exactly. Let's make jokes and arbitrary votes. Scumhunting will do itself.

unvote, vote: Flareonage

For complaining about the level of scumhunting whilst not scumhunting, a sin number 43.

Exactly. Let's make jokes and arbitrary votes. Scumhunting will do itself.

unvote, vote: Flareonage

For complaining about the level of scumhunting whilst not scumhunting, a sin number 43.

Unvote, vote: popsofctown

For complaining about me complaining about the level of scumhunting and the fact that I'm not scumhunting while you yourself are not scumhunting. Sin number 89

This, series of posts feels a lot like distancing to me. Flare got replaced. by Hoopla.

I'm on page 13 by now, and the problem is that pops never got any serious attention then. You can hardly find something, apart from a very weak tell like the above. I'll try to continue later.

[mykonian]

Gayle is my hero and makes me love her more now then ever in this game.

unvote:
vote: pops

I will tell you why I don't see ABR as scum. First I have seen ABR not post much as town in the begining. I asked him to lay out a case and I am leaning on personal issues between him and DGB.
That said I would go for a pops lynch based on her comments towards DGB, not offering much in convo, following others and well I think she is scum.

town. Page 27

Next posters don't mention this: rhinox, elvis (who does post about the active lurking), Ojanen ("I will catch up"-post). All not as strong tells as the first post. A lot of things don't get commented on.

I made it to page 28 by now.

[mykonian]

quick pops, who should i vote for. i'm so confused.

Don't be fooled! Pops is scum! Quick, vote him!

i like the speed in which you replied. i don't think scum would do such a thing.

vote: pops

my question was a trap anyway.

I love this part. Page 31

Plum, although OU now, manages to mention anything about the case on pops.

and that were the few minutes I had between classes. But I'm halfway now!

[mykonian]

Was it good town play by me, mykonian?

I love it = I find it unlikely to see Hoopla or Gayle acting this way if they are pop's scumbuddy.

[mykonian]

Not voting on the beginning of Day 1 is only a scum tell because it's the RVS.

The only reason I'm not as involved as I should be is because the thread is huge and I'm having trouble getting my head around it. This coupled with the fact that I've been quite busy of late.

I have a fairly clear sense of who's town. I have good feelings about elvis, farside, Ojanen and pops. Scum: you, CSL, fishythefish. But, to be honest, my cases are fairly weak.

You I mainly have a bad feeling about still because your vote feels a bit OMGUSy and your pattern of involvement isn't much better than mine. Sure, I posted some theory-related fluff, but most of that was early on. And your vote on me keeps your hands as clean as mine.

You've made exactly one vote all game, and only a pretty low percentage of your posts actually contain anything that serves to encourage or discourage a lynch of anyone. You've taken few stances and made few connections, either pro or con, with almost anyone. This is a kind of play that makes it very hard to pin anything on you, if you're scum, and if you're town, hurts your effectiveness. Assuming you're relatively competent means I'm inclined to think you're more likely to be scum overall.

That's what I mean by keeping your hands clean and whatever else I might be accused of, it's not something I've been doing, I think.

I think this makes a Raskol Evilsnail scumteam quite unlikely.

I think I trust Gayle the most;

Vote: popsofctown

Can we please stop arguing and notice the person sliding thru the game here and add pressure?

I don't know about this vote. If Hoopla is town, this is pressure. I don´t think it is a tell, contrary to what Farside says. It is so obvious.

Evilsnail, you are an experienced player.

Since when is consistency town?

Where do I say that? It just shows that my opinion of DGB predated the wagon.

And Evil, you name it with your suspicion on DGB. As town, you wouldn't have to worry about consistancy, but as scum you really want to show you aren't blatantly bandwagonning...

After he is accused by DGB he says it only shows he was consistent. I think only scum is really caring about being consistent, so I asked about it.

I don't get your point.

I only pointed out that my opinion of DGB predated the wagon. I didn't say consistency was a town tell or anything. Both town and scum players can be consistent.

I was addressing the interpretation fishythefish seems to be pushing (that I expressed suspicion of DGB in order to be able to jump onto her wagon), which is invalidated by this.

This strikes me as odd now. I don´t like how Evil misses the point here.

unvote vote Evilsnail

Small tell, but I really see scum motivations here.

Ugh

Still not done.

Re my scum tells: It's been a long time since I played as scum, so I don't fully remember, but I definitely like busing my scumbuddies. That's fun. Other than that, I tend to be more cautious with my vote. When I'm town, I have very strong gut feelings about people and that's difficult to fake. So, if I'm using more intuition than sense, that's usually a sign that I'm town.

^^^ Cautious with his vote...not following gut as much...doesn't that describe his current play?

What I said then too. Elli makes good points here.

I don't mind pops's justification for his CSL vote so much, even though I'm not a huge fan of policy lynches.

The observation that there was no "obvscum" struck me as strange, though. There's plenty of people making cases. Heck, there's a bandwagon on me that people seem to like. By making these wagons out to be non-existent or weak, he's basically making the reasoning behind his vote out to be weaker than it is.

I should take a break, I'm starting to tunnel.

Evilsnails case is meh. If anything farside puts herself in a position to go any direction she wants more than evilsnail does.

another break. I'm just finding what I want to find, I think.

I really dislike snail's 1134. Because, up until then, I was pretty sure I'd struck scum. But that post really makes me doubt my read, both because I really believe it on a gut level, and it makes so little sense for scumsnail. At that point, snail was being voted by four people. Three of them had the same point against him, and then there was me. I'd made a case which had attracted no support, and a fair amount of criticism. Why on earth would scumsnail roll over and basically say that I had a case? Going after my case is such a natural play there.

unvote

. I don't believe that post came from scum.

vote: pops

- since he's scum and all.

His reason for voting pops? Could very easily be distancing. but I don't know Fishy this way, I wouldn't expect him to do this as scum or as town.

My vote for pops:

As I said in my last post, I dislike pops's play in the DGB wagon. I don't like the reasons he gave for voting either time he voted DGB, and I don’t like the way he hopped off the wagon in the middle, again with fairly bad reasoning. I find it difficult to believe pops was being honest about his opinions on DGB – much more like he was looking for excuses to hop on that wagon. Pops hasn’t given many votes this game, nor a huge number of cases, and not believing one of them was earnest is a significant thing.

My gut says funny things as I read pops’s posts. It doesn’t feel like his agenda is to find and lynch scum, but nor does it feel like he’s just attacking people to look good. The closest I can come is it feels like he is disagreeing people for its own sake. I don’t really know what to make of this – it could be another way to try and look protown, or it could just be a playstyle thing. This isn't part of my case.

I don’t much like pop’s reactions to the wagon on him. The “DGB is going to ruin this game” line is strawmanning the case on him by saying it’s based on a dead and controversial player, when AFAIC that simply isn’t true. Then there’s “don’t lynch me, I post stuff. Lynch the lurkers” – which is a bit horrible because there’s no particular reason to think the lurkers are scum.

Incidentally, unreadable players whose flip wouldn’t tell us much and who don’t help the town are pretty good choices for teleporting, if you don’t have any mega scumreads.

@Hoopla: who is scum? Why are you posting so briefly, and not giving us reads?

@other people: is this usual for Hoopla?
In particular @pops: you are advocating the policy lynch of CSL for being unreadable. Do you find Hoopla more readable than CSL? If so, how do you read him?

Rhinox case is ok. Pretty poor posts on DGB, and deadline activity certainly fits well with scum. He goes on my scumlist, which looks now goes pops>CSL>Rhinox. I'd settle for any of these lynches if it got us a quick lynch.

Gets explained here. I'm happy with fish.

Too bad Fishy and Evilsnail didn't use all that time they spent arguing to hunt far more obvious scum: "Lurk and Lie" CSL,"Wagon Hop" Pops, and "Respond to everything with a flurry of misleading arguments" Myko.

The people voting evilsnail for Elli's point are being ridiculous. Why do you guys keep going for this "scumslip" nonsense? Elli made a similar point about Jack, and look what happened. Please don't lynch over such a stupid reason.

I like this post, and not just because of the point about me. Scum-Gayle has no real reason to tie herself to three wagons that clearly. It could really come back to haunt her.

Pops's response to Ojanen seems off. Considering that pops is pursuing a policy lynch on CSL and not making a case on anyone himself, dismissing all available cases out of hand is really unproductive. Also, I think Ojanen made some fair points about Rhinox's play. I read over pops's ISO and she hasn't contributed real cases in a long time (which I realise now some players have been pointing out for a while). I don't know how this measures up to pops's meta, but it is certainly not helping us.

Why didn't you vote for pops here, evil?

omg ur right. lynching my strongest town read makes WAY more sense than a policy lynch.

vote: Rhinox

. except no,

unvote

.

Stringing up people as fast as humanly possible is the scum's idea of productive. Which is the root of why several people are suspicious of you.

Your response has nothing to do with what I said. I never said you should vote Rhinox. Just that it seems weird that you've been dismissing all of these cases without giving us anything better. I would understand if you felt you had a stronger case, but you don't.

That has nothing to do with stringing up people as fast as possible either. And I don't see how this is at the "root of why several people are suspicious of me." I'm being wagonned for a lack of activity/content, which is precisely the opposite.

If this is you readying yourself to vote me, please try harder next time.

Never mind, they aren't buddies.

ugh I'm truly sorry everyone that I haven't been keeping up. I haven't really read anything since my last post but i promise I'll get something up tomorrow.

2 thoughts for now:

CSL is scum and pops is town

(I think)

.

Bolded to make my point.

I can get behind a pops lynch today, especially if CSL gets teleported to U2.

getting caught up, but... can someone tell me why shipping CSL over to the OU is any better than lynching him?

Both options (lynching and tele) remove him from our universe, and IF he is town, brings mafia closer to majority.

So, if you want CSL teleported, you should be OK with his lynch as well. If you think CSL is town so you don't want to lynch him, but still want him teleported, that strategy is scummy as hell.

Can you explain why a policy lynch is better then lynching someone you find extremely scummy?

Rhinox could very well be Pops his buddy. Seen this post where he doesn't directly comment on pops, but supports his wagon, and on the same time the only counterwagon for pops.

Rhinox seems to be pushing the policy lynch thing.

False, actually.

Hoopla, so you seem to prefer a pops lynch to a CSL one? Why does your vote not reflect that?

More later.

You're right, thanks Ojanen!

Unvote, vote: pops

Rhinox has the annoying way of almost no comments close to the pop's lynch (for example, where Pops is asked to claim)

Unvote, Vote: CSL

This is after the claim, fishy just came with decent analysis, and Evil bandwagonned.

Then Hoopla's slip.

Unvote, Vote: pops

Awesome.

Yeah, I like to lynch him. Even before Hoopla.

Seen fishy's plan, it would have been quite profitable to wait for the night to have the real teleporter to teleport Pops away.

Evil's "awesome" could very well have been honest. But it certainly was only there to score townie points.

Fishy's reaction to this events, together with his finding of Hoopla's tell make him even more town in my eyes.

You miss Farside mostly here. She's town. No way she is scum with Pops.

unvote vote Evil

I think he is better then Hoopla.

[mykonian]

Evil sounded annoyed towards Pops, but I think in the end, it was buddying. Esspecially seen that those "OMGUS" feelings didn't really come back later.

[mykonian]

Evil, I consider it a tell when somebody uses "consistency" as a good thing, about himself. It is the same as saying "See how town I am", except it isn't true here (being consistent =/= being town), because it is almost the opposite. (trying to be consistent = scum, quite often)

[mykonian]

ok. This will become the first round where teleportation will hurt us. We have a lot of players we want gone, the game is slowing down since a lot of players have trouble to keep up, and tbh, I don't see it happening that we'll find a replacement for Raskol soon.

And even worse: we'll have to pull.

SO GET ACTIVE

In stead of going stupidly for Hoopla, and saying nothing else, get investigating. There must at least be one other scum there, and nobody thinks about looking for him. It will only become harder to get back in if you have lurked for a few days more.

[mykonian]

There could be a benefit in that the bandwagon of Pops essentially formed twice. The slowness of the wagon at first gave scum enough time to bus.

myko, what did you mean by this exactly?

a. there was first the votes towards L-1, the unvotes after the claim, then the votes towards the lynch.

The first bandwagon was forming slowly, making it easy for scum to position (distance, etc)
The second was fast, with Pops as confirmed scum, and where pops was a target for bussing

Raskol, myko scum are not out of the question.

thank you. Why?

[mykonian]

ok. That was not quite as expected, but there is nothing that doesn't say it wasn't an accident, so on this moment haylen is lucky. We also know that Elli, Starbuck and Haylen are not in 1 scumteam (the game would have ended in universe 2).

I would expect scum to be on the Hoopla wagon, and for later: I suspect Elli more then Haylen.

Further, the wagon formed quickly in the start, so one cannot say a lot about the order there.

[mykonian]

I would love to hear it. You actually know how I play as scum/town (I thought)

[mykonian]

I would start at that point, like spyrex said, first day, esspecially the end, was a mess.

and there are not so many of them left anymore.

[mykonian]

uhm, spyrex, your case is that my posts towards the other universe are short, and those about my own are long?

The same argument, made in a place I knew I had influence, would have been explained, with a quote, and show why it was manipulation. But for communication with the other town this just won't work, and is not really worth it and might even be dangerous, because you reduce the point to two words "manipulative scum". Strong, but it is just calling names. Ideal for giving someone a direction, or as scum, trying to get someone lynched, but not ideal for actual scumhunting.

[mykonian]

...

No. It has very little to do with the length and everything to do with the tone and consistency.

That short paragraph laid out a clearer opinion than your day 1 in this game. Especially up to that point. In contrast, this game was exceptionally long and meandering and, ultimately, filled with more than a chunk of white noise.

I'm not sure how you could think that anything I had to say about that was a function of the LENGTH.

uhm, sorry? The next part is clearly about intonation. How what the purpose, and who the audiance is affects how you say things.

And are you accusing me of active lurking, hiding behind theory, wishywashyness or anything like that?

[mykonian]

I would find it unusual if neither of pops' scumbuddies bussed pre-claim, it took a long time to form, the wagon. Especially with daytalking scum.

popsofctown

( 7 )

gayle

elvis_knits

fishythefish

Ellibereth

farside22

CSL

Hoopla

Ellibereth is from the other universe, and I'll eat my hat if Gayle is scum. Leaves CSL and Fishy as only possible bussers.

When vote analysis leaves so little possible scum, you may want to rethink your assumptions. CSL is quite out of the question (elli, why would anyone go on for page after page how his scumbuddy should be lynched, while it is totally possible that it happens?) and I don't think fishy scum. You might want to ask: did scum bus? And if they did, didn't they do it when Pops was the certain lynch (the second time)? The longer it forms, the less likely everybody wanted to be on the wagon. Meaning scum maybe wanted to stay off.

A counterargument is that the counterwagon (CSL) quickly died. So scum didn't have any real alternative then either stay on their previous target, or bus pops.

vote spyrex

and this is lame, I know, but it is based on Raskols play. I expect not to get a lot of new stuff here, as the spyrex I know is pretty good at making logically good points. Catching him on irrelevant fears and badly reasoned votes like Raskol won't happen.

[mykonian]

if you read my response, I was saying that there was little to get from Hoopla's lynch. That the hammer was too quick, but I don't consider it scummy.

For the second, it is wrong to attack someone before he posts a promised case, it is better to wait for it. Then, the point itself is logical, attacking you because it is bad (though untrue), is again wrong, all I should do, is show everyone why it is wrong. (the difference is in the goal I have with it, and how much I'm listened to). I have somewhat the feeling I won't convince you, since you immediately went for my generalization which started the post.

I should reread The raskol case is old. Evil is still interesting, but his admitting his scummy things makes me worry. I still have a no-read on Ojanen.

[mykonian]

ok. That was not quite as expected,

but there is nothing that doesn't say it wasn't an accident

, so on this moment haylen is lucky.

I would expect scum to be on the Hoopla wagon, and for later: I suspect Elli more then Haylen.

Further, the wagon formed quickly in the start,

so one cannot say a lot about the order there.

Two very weakening statements, accompaniing the suspicion that U2 scum had to do with it. I know what I said, Ojanen.

[mykonian]

But, fishy, if you're not scum, then who is? I'm honestly getting town vibes off every single one of the U1 players left.

Lol. Your scumbuddy got teleported? And everybody is town, except for the person you have a slight doubt about?

FoS Evilsnail