Teleportation Mafia Universe ONE (MAFIA A WINS!)

[Rhinox]

back from V/LA.

/confirm

if I need to. I'll get caught up shortly.

[Rhinox]

what are your scumtells, when you are scum?

I don't have any

what are your scumtells when you are scum?

Oh come on this question sucks why should I share my scum tells to hurt me in other games?
I can already hear the people ready to lynch me for the above but telling people your scum tells does hurt you for other games.
idk I range with being quiet, lurky to talkative depending on the game. I do bus my scum partner on many occasions I can think of. I think I jump on cases just with a me too kind of post at times if I feel lost in a game and I don't know where else to go. I notice I don't try to motivate a game and I purposly miss things that are scum tells from my partner if I think they are safe from a lynch or being voted on.
Obviously my scum tell is on a wide range because acting the same in a game means people know you to be scum and use that meta against you.

Screw your other games, does answering the question help or hurt this game? If it helps, answer it. If it doesn't, don't. Why did you answer the question? I personally don't see how this question helps this game at all. It creates lots of wifom later on.

I don't read it that way at all. He is asking how you act as scum. Not everyone acts the same and people can use it as a reference instead of using the word meta argument.
I just hate it because I never like talking about my scum actions. Never. It's something I hold dear to my heart and don't want to share with the MS world (who do read games and look back on things to the nth degree) signs that I'm scum for later games.

Again, so why did you answer it?

Wut?

Someone is asking what my scumtells are (along with everyone else's?)

No way. Why should I tell scum what they should avoid doing?

This post feels... off. As farside22 points out, sharing scum tells is not anti-town. Even if it did help scum in some way, it also helps the town find scum.

FOS: DGB

How so? I don't think it does.

pops, I have played one game with Flare where he feigned ignorance as scum. I rather have him trying to understand the game then hiding behind it.

Because I still like my vote on Rhinox, I won't vote DGB. But she is a very good second. Avoiding the 2/3 times. That must be a record. Now seen multiple answers, Farside is at least open about her motives (good).

lol not that I care that I have any votes on me, but what have I done or not done that makes you like your vote on me? I was V/LA until my first post in the game and I was just finally able to read the thread and catch up in this game as of this post. Check my activity across the site if you don't believe me and I believe you know I was just prodded in another game so....

Then less than 24hours later you do switch your vote to DGB for what you call a major scumtell but meh... I think you were fencesitting on DGB before and using your vote on me as an excuse to not vote DGB then... so do you view DGB as a threat to scum or something and you want to try to lynch her?

You know who'd be eager to give a list of scumtells?

5KuMz

That's who.

We should lynch everyone that answered.

This except lynch the person who asked the question first.

How is it WIFOM?

I can say that when I'm town, I write in green text, but when I'm scum, I write in red text.

So I'll make all my posts green.

Am I scum? The answer is WIFOM.

thisthisthis!!

I agree

vote raskol

You completely forgot what you did with fishy, and went for the next target, with a less then spectacular case. Where are you going to run next?

hypocrite. you seem to have very quickly and easily forgotten what you liked about your vote on me. you're even on to your second suspect since me before I even posted to give you a reason to dislike your vote.

vote myko

for everything I said in this post

If you didn't read the post, too bad, I don't feel like giving you a tl;dr right now. Caught up now and hopefully will be able to keep up.

TO BOTH UNI's: This might go without saying, but in an ideal world, shouldn't we be scum hunting in the OU as well? since we'll be getting some of their players at some point, good to know what we're getting ahead of time. Also, if we help the OU kill their scum, it means we're less likely to get stuck with them over here. Just a thought I'm certainly not leading the charge right now

[Rhinox]

If you can't handle WIFOM you are a terrible scumhunter. There is nothing only townies do because such an absolute towntell would be copied by scum, etc. WIFOM, whether you like it or not, is information.

So its ok to create WIFOM because any good scumhunter should be able to handle it?

Tell me, how does knowing what everyone says is their scumtell going to help you find scum in this game?

I am sorry rhinox, but if you hadn't CTRL-F'ed your name, you would have noticed I was on that moment voting Raskol. I have mixed your names up here. And as you can see, my raskol case hasn't been forgotten by me. The later accusation that I switched for DGB was indeed DGB's scumslip where she showed finding scum wasn't her primary interest. I hope this explains enough

This makes the rest of the post somewhat awkward though, since there is some aggressive "we should lynch myko stuff" and calling me a hypocrit for not using previous cases while I return my vote to my previous suspect.

One question still remains. Why is 90% of Rhinox's catch up post about someone who he thought voted him, and not in a positive way?

Fuck you I read the entire thread. If you said you were voting me when you weren't its as much your fault as it is mine for not doublechecking the vote count at the time. This is a fast moving large game with lots of pages and lots of votes jumping around, and I read the whole thing at once, so I don't always have the votecount at any particular time in the front of my head. You said you "liked your vote on me" I assumed what you were saying was correct and the rest of my post was obviously based around that incorrect point of information. if you had been voting me when you said you were, I make lots of valid points in my post. Since you weren't, I retract that point, but not the part about your scumtell question.

Regarding the bolded: misrep. Maybe half my post is about you, the other half is directed to farside, evilsnail, and both uni's in general. Besides, what do you expect from a catchup post? I'm hunting scum - I'm not doing pbpa's, summarys of every player, town/scum lists, repeating everything that was already said just to agree or disagree, etc. If there's something you'd like me to comment on, request away. If I didn't comment on it, it wasn't important enough to warrent a comment IMO.

@Rhinox:

OJ wrote:
So why did you answer the question anyway?

I answered it because I have nothing to hide in this game. I saw no reason not to talk about it for this game. My biggest problem with be those who will use it later in other games.

That may be true, but you said the question sucks and then answered it in the same post. Seemed like you were trying to appease myko. If a question sucks, not answering it does not make you scum.

Rhinox is underwhelming since his catchup post is just a case about myko (with some sucking up to dgb thrown in). Doesn't seem like he read the thread, but wanted to aim a case at myko.

Sorry to disappoint. If by "sucking up" you mean "quoted what I was thinking but said already by someone else" then I guess you caught me. What is the scum motivation behind aiming a case a myko, whether I did or did not read the thread? Would it have been better to aim a case elsewhere? Would it have been better to not aim a case at all?

[Rhinox]

Tell me, how does knowing what everyone says is their scumtell going to help you find scum in this game?

Dude, I answered this question in detail on the last page.

myko asked the question. I want to hear his answer.

[Rhinox]

I also want to know why myko refused to provide an answer to his own question as well.

[Rhinox]

Fair enough, but you can at least pretend to have read my answer.

I did. I don't want to comment on it until I get mykos answer, because I don't want my comments to effect his answer.

[Rhinox]

But you did CTRL-F your name, right? (not a tell, just confirming my way of thinking)

I don't ctrl-f anything. It was insulting to me to be accused of not reading the thread. Obviously I missed some things/misunderstood some things. I get excited when I think I've found scum. Sorry if I insulted you.

It was his most important argument. However, it is sadly based on a miscommunication

Lets not put the "most important argument" on it in order to strawman me. I still want to talk about your scum tell question some more.

snail and myko both humor me, if you don't mind. Suppose I told you the biggest scum tell I was conscious of, and then never committed it all game. Am I town or scum? Suppose I did commit it later in the game. Am I town or scum? Suppose I was obviously going out of my way to avoid committing it. Firstly, how could you tell if that were the case, and does it make me town or scum?

[Rhinox]

Rhinox: what makes me so important to you that your post (to put it in a different way) is pretty much focused on me?

Scum deserve extra attention.

Did you ever answer this question by the way?

So its ok to create WIFOM because any good scumhunter should be able to handle it?

Page 15 scum/town list discussion: IMO, they help scum more than town. They let the scum know who they can push for mislynches without arrousing suspision, and who they should nk. It also serves as a report card for how scum are doing in your view, so they can alter their play accordingly i.e. it lets scum know how well they're doing at looking like town.

I would rather have the scum forced to agree with our town reads and concentrate attacks on themselves and people who look like scum.

Hypathetical game.

6 townies, ABCDEF.
3 scums, xyz.

ABCDEF and xyz have some discussion during the day. During this process, Townies A, B, C, D, and E become 90% certain that F is town. They gain some other information, but not anything nearly that significant.

xyz are going to randomly select a townie to attack together. (yes, sometimes scum attack townies together, sometimes apart, it's not relevant to the example which method they go for).

Pro-readlist people would have each player post their opinions. Scum would realize F is a fortress impenetrable, and they select one of the other five players, and shoot F that night. (and don't say they would have known to shoot F that night anyway. If they would have known that anyway, why can't we grant the same assumption of intelligence to townies who haven't seen readlists yet and let them say they don't need the readlist to know who they agree is townie?)

Anti-readlist people would have these reads withheld. xyz might attack F. The lynch still fails. It's not like these readlists put a magic protective halo of holiness around players that look townie, they don't.

Then after the lynch fails, xyz scumteam look scummy.

:goodposting:

Maybe if xyz are morons.

I'm sorry, but the scenario you're describing is spectacularly unlikely. ABCD are all picking up on some reliable town read that xyz for some reason have no awareness of? This tell, so elusive for scum, is somehow still so reliable that ABCD will not ever doubt it and change their minds. In addition, xyz somehow decide to all go after the same player together, without any plausible suspect action by F and build their case so poorly that ABCD are entirely unconvinced and stick to their town read. In addition, ABCD all recognise that not having this mysterious, magical town read on F means that xyz are scum.

More likely is x goes after F, y waffles on the issue and z disagrees. A changes his mind and goes after F too, B doesn't see what the big deal is and FOSes y for waffling, C is lurking, D is too caught up in his case on A to care and F OMGUSes x after a long drawn-out discussion with x over the minutiae of the discussion after which everyone else, including y and z, is too confused to be able to tell either way. At the end of the day, the only impression anyone is left with is that F did something scummy and this, coupled with F's unimpressive claim, ensures a sloppy mislynch of F when the deadline rolls around.

Evilsnail completely misses the point and strawmans pops. No, its not a black and white like in pops post, but if you have a town read on someone, you may be able to catch scum trying to mislynch that player if you withold that information. Afterall, unless your a cop, you don't know for sure, so there's no reason to announce that you think he's town (unless its part of some other grand scumhunting scheme). Giving a detailed list of who you think is town and scum lets the scum push wagons on townies you think are scummy, while they know not to bother bringing up cases on players you have locked in as town. Unless of course you're a scumhunting god and nailed the scumteam as your top suspects, but even then you have to get every other town player to agree with you.

This is why no one will understand why they shouldn't post readlists until 3010.

I feel you dawg.

This is also why its not a scumtell yet. Townies don't realize making lists isn't ideal play. But it makes for nice theory discussion. Also look, after a few pages, everyone's mostly forgotten about it.

REGARDING THE VOODOO CURSE:

Also, anyone keep getting the "No posts exist for this topic" error?

This happens when the mod deletes a post. Its a bug in the page counting routine of the boards. Although the post is deleted and post numbers are reset, the ghost post is still counted while determining the number of pages in the thread. So if there is one deleted post in this thread, everytime someone puts the last post on a page, the ghost post will cause the error that there is an extra page even though there isn't.

Just in case everyone didn't know.

Everyone in this thread is being hilariously hypocritical. If it was such a horrible mistake that town couldn't make, then why did everyone in the thread except plum read over it and not notice?

I noticed it, its just not a slip. Attacking him for this slip is a distraction and allows him to strawman other more legitimite arguments.

For the scums in the thread, though, it makes a great <insert reason> for <insert vote> on <insert townie>.

You can only make this argument if you know myko is town.

I think we should cut the fat and thin down the numbers before using the teleportation. Sending all the suspicious players to one universe could be a feasible idea later on in the game when we have claimed power roles.

I completely disagree.

@ mykonian: quoting would've done MORE harm.

unvote

The vote has served it's purpose.

Enlighten me... what purpose was that?

-and-

Whats your new purpose? lurk until another opportunity arrises to jump on a wagon?

Placing these two in seperate universes would solve the problem without using a costly lynch for it. If one is scum, that person would lose his/her target, and would have to think of something new.

No, they need to hug it out, if there is a problem. A little drama can be good for scum hunting. people will pick sides.

I also think people who are discouraging teleportation are anti-town. Scum have more of a reason to dislike telportation, especially since we have decided to try to teleport scummy players.

QFT


Myko, you claim the teleportation is a 0-sum game and causes confusion? Firstly, any good townie should be able to handle a little confusion, yes? ESPECIALLY if they can handle a little wifom

With the jab out of the way, time to get serious. Confusion isn't a funtion of the mechanic, its a function of the dedication of the players in the games. Townies playing towards their wincon will not become confused just because they have to read another thread. They might not like it, or they might just not choose to catch up (which is not really playing to their wincon).

Secondly, teleporting is not a 0-sum game. We may lose 1 scum only to gain another if the teleporters both hit scum, but the two uni's scums are separate factions. The chance of crosskills is a big plus for the town and is not offset by imaginary "confusion".

[Rhinox]

Myko: when you list scumtells, they're no longer scumtells. Thats the point I was trying to make in my previous post. The WIFOM I'm talking about is that (going back to DGB's example), if I said posting in red was a scumtell, and I go the whole game without posting red, you don't know if its because I'm town, or if its because I'm avoiding my scumtell. If, however, later in the game I post in red, you can not say that I am scum because scum would not do exactly what they said would be a tell. The player is forced to divine from what they know of me whether I would poison the wine in front of you or however the damned saying goes. So I can no longer trust the scumtell.

It creates WIFOM that need not be there,

which is different from the wifom inherant in the game. Suppose I knew before the game that you posting in red was your scum tell, but you didn't think anyone knew. I can easily pinpoint you as scum if you then post in red and you never told anyone it was your tell. However, if you said early in the game that it was your scumtell, I have to play the WIFOM game to determine if you are scum. In essence, you have caused confusion and made it harder for me to scumhunt. My only choices in this hypothetical situation would be to policy lynch you, or submit that the "tell" is no longer reliable because it is out in the open.

to compare this to confusion is not fair

(that was a joke btw)

, I think. Neither is calling confusion imaginary. The bigger the mess, the less effective the town. Big rereads will slow the game down.

Big rereads slowing the game down =/= confusion. Furthermore, if both towns are reading both threads as they progress as 1 game (as they should be because it is, although I personally haven't had time to read the other thread yet), there will be no rereads necessary and there will be no question marks about the players who teleport into your universe. So as I said before, the mechanic does not cause any confusion.

About crosskills. I wanted that I could share your optimism, but I don't see scum going for scummy players that are zapped in. Neither do I see the new scum shooting other then players that are likely town. The greatest effect you will again achieve close to endgame. (where I have argued the teleportation mechanic finally becomes useful).

You forget that if scum are split between uni's they get to choose which uni to kill in. Who's to say that if we tele a scum to the OU, the mafia decides to use their kill over there? The biggest threats to the mafia teams are the masons and the other mafia, because 1 mafia can't win until the other is eliminated.

you knew I was scum before your catchup post? Is that why you practically tunneled on me? I would very much like to know what evidence you used for this, since that must be an awesome scumhunting tool.

If you think I am tunneled on you, you are naive. Your comments I read during my read gave me the strongest scum vibes at this stage of the game, so I acted with a vote. You seem a little on edge at being the focus of my vote and my comments, and we haven't worked out all our differences, so my vote remains. You are still as of this point my #1 pick for scum. I don't know if it will stay this way, but if you got lynched right now I wouldn't regret my vote. The wagon on you is generating tons of info. So, like I said before, I'm scumhunting. Sometimes you're the bait, sometimes you're the prey, and sometime I don't know what you are until I land the fish.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, I say I create information. You say that information is not decisive. We are both right, I just don't see how extra information, even when doubting how effective it could be, can ever hurt us.

Nobody tells any person to use it. I have actually never even used the answer itself, but the way the person answered, what his motivation was while answering. See my analysis of Farside, Fishy, DGB, Plum and I thought evilsnail. Gayle couldn't answer it for obvious reasons, and the reluctance to give information makes Raskol quite likely scum.

So I have provided analysis from this question, but I don't see that coming back in your argument anywhere. You seem to think the information is worthless. I don't think any information is.

ok.

---------------------------------------

I am not ad homming anyone. When I say farside can't read me, that is not an ad hom attack.

A has made argument X. There is something undesirable about A. X is false (or less true to any degree).

pops is right. adhom is a logical fallacy and is independant from verbally attacking or insulting someone. Adhom is not against the site rules, while attacking or insulting is.

I CONSIDER IT INSULTING WHEN PEOPLE INCORRECTLY ACCUSE ME OF ADHOM. IF I SAY YOUR IDEA IS STUPID, I AM NOT ADHOMMING YOU, I AM DISAGREEING WITH YOUR IDEA.

I don't recall you saying farsides ideas were stupid. What you did was completely ignore farsides ideas to discredit her position based on adhom.

I don't know if you're scum though.

---------------------------------------

unvote, vote: CSL

see previous post somewhere

--------------------------------------

Also, Rhinox, I am deeply offended that of all those quotes in your post, mine was the only one you declined to attach a name to. As is common knowledge, this is a very terrible and dire insult, and I assure you that I will have my vengeance some day soon. I would sleep with the lights on if I were you.

Mafia claim here. Only mafia kills at night in this game

lol I didn't quote you because there were a few other players asking about the voodoo curse so I was utilizing your post to address everyone. Next time I'll use "Gayle, et al"

[Rhinox]

The meta evidence on DGB is pretty damning, unless DGB does this as town too. I've never played with DGB before and I'm too lazy to do the research myself, so anyone ready to level with me and come do DGB's defense? I've seen these go both ways though.

Her "gut" tells her I have been manipulating from the start, she says.

Well you did claim to be a good manipulator as scum

Which player was talking about policy lyching? I saw someone bring it up but I can't recall who?
Cookie for anyone who tells me.

POPS talking about lynching CSL

Cookie?

*throws a bone at the cute dog instead*

Okay EK I will make you a deal that will sound really familiar. If I'm wrong about DGB not only do I get a muzzle for a week but I agree with ABR scum and bow down to your read on him.

I dislike lining up lynches. What makes ABR scum if DGB is town as opposed to a townie with a bad read?

And also, trust me, knowing dgb, if she wins as scum again she's going to make a huge deal about it and none of us will ever hear the end of it. She has no life and brags on the forum even months after a game is done. Trust me you do not want dgb to get away when it's so crystal clear that she's scum.

Very bad and obvious AtE. Hope it was a joke.

DGB's argument that fishy is scum for answering that question is WRONG. Look at that answer, and tell me. Is this scum trying to hide or manipulate, or is this someone truthfully analyzing his own play and telling us? Fishy is town for exactly that post.

This is the scummy wifom I was talking about. fishy is no less likely scum that realized that he could BS a huge list of tells to appease you and appear to be the "cooperative townie" because he knew the info he provided would not hurt his chances at winning as scum. Just because it looked truthful does not apply. Its a logical fallacy. Just because Lies=scum does not mean Truthful=town. Otherwise a scum could claim scum, and by this logic would prove them to be town.


Fishy brings up a good point about DGB in this post. If DGB was so concerned that answering mykos question was scummy, why wasn't she paying more attention to see who all actually answered the question. That would be an excellent opportunity for a townie to catch scum. Instead, DGB was lazy about it. It makes it seem like scum lazy pretend scum hunting. A townie genuinely scum hunting would have been keeping a close eye out for other players committing the tell.

[Rhinox]

I dislike lining up lynches. What makes ABR scum if DGB is town as opposed to a townie with a bad read?

There is a game that we (EK/myself) are both currently in that I can't discuss further except to say I made a deal there too. It's more of a joke then serious.
But for me it's EK seems to think I'm not listening to her and I feel the same about her not listening to me.
It may be the only reason I started leaning town on EK as we never listen to each other till later.

ok

This is the scummy wifom I was talking about. fishy is no less likely scum that realized that he could BS a huge list of tells to appease you and appear to be the "cooperative townie" because he knew the info he provided would not hurt his chances at winning as scum. Just because it looked truthful does not apply. Its a logical fallacy. Just because Lies=scum does not mean Truthful=town. Otherwise a scum could claim scum, and by this logic would prove them to be town.

Sorry Rhinox, but isn't it true that scum allways wants to look town? Every action scum does is to appease me, so I have no idea what your problem is other then that this is another moment where scum can mess up, being unknown with what is coming.

I honestly have no idea what your saying here. You said fishy was town because of his response. I'm arguing fishy's response is a null tell and its scummy to call him town because of it (or at best, stupid town play). You're now saying... what exactly?

Anyway, had a few comments disliking DGB and even Fishy a little for finding it significant. But what was up with CSL? Thought first I can never make sense of him anyway, but

Wow, I'm not done with the 12th page yet, and I go to this page, and see that. That's one of the biggest slips I have seen in my life!

Vote: mykonian

This was on page 16.
He then gets criticized for following.
He then explains:

@ Gayle: I did not follow Plum. I found it on my own. However, Plum (and whoever else voted myko) already posted the "slip" and wuoting the post might not have done any good.

The only thing is, the alleged slip post was on page 4.

"Wow, I'm not done with the 12th page yet, and I go to this page, and see that."

with this page reffering to 16 then makes zero sense.
...Liar?

Massive HoS: CSL

/reads on

Good catch. Proves he didn't catch the slip on his own like he said.

confirm vote: CSL

CSL, I asked you a couple questions earlier that I want answers to. What was your purpose of your vote on CSL (you said your vote served its purpose), and why did you just unvote and fall away when the wagon lost steam?

Re: Ojanen finding me scummy | I agree that I fell into a theory discussion trap with myko re: teleporting and his scum tell question, but to lump all of my posts into the "theory fluff" category is a bit unfair. In the first post you linked, I gave my thoughts on the mykoslip situation, I asked important questions of CSL, and I disagreed with myko about the "get rid of either ABR or DGB" plan. None of that falls into the "theory fluff" category. 464 was all theory I admit, but they were comments I felt needed said. 492 was mostly about my thoughts on the EK ad hom discussion. No theory fluff there.

Anyways, I'm starting to get a better feel for this game now, so the focus of my posts should begin to improve as well.

[Rhinox]

myko 679: ok I can see what you're saying here but IGMEOY still because that is a very weak reason to call someone town. IMO, fishy's response is a null tell, not a town tell. Either scum or town could have made that response.

What did you think of my response to your question by the way? you never really gave any thoughts on it.


Why is everyone talking about CSL like his lynch would be a pure policy lynch? I've never played a mafia game with CSL before, but in this games his few actions have seemed scummy. There's nothing policy about his hypo lynch except the policy of lynching scum.


poor pops... I remember playing with you before. Do you remember playing with me??


DIE SCUM!

double confirm vote: CSL

DGB 709: I agree with you here. But I also find you very scummy. If I don't vote for CSL today, I'll be voting for you.


DGB 736 Using this logic, you are very scummy for the lists you've been throwing around all game.


Plum 759:

I don't really know what you mean about focusing on past events. When I mentioned myko's non-slip, its because the discussion about started after my previous post. It might have happened 10 pages ago at that time, but thats only 24-48 hours or so in real time, so its not really much of a past event. Things I haven't commented on (like ABR since you gave that specific example) is because I have other avenues to explore that are more interesting. Other players are exploring ABR and that is fine. I don't have anything particularly useful to add right now so I'm observing while exploring other areas.

I was early on CSL. I voted for the same reasons you're voting now. I unvoted myko because I felt like I was banging my head against a brick wall with our argument, but are disagreements seemed mostly theory disagreements and that didn't make myko scum. and CSL was much scummier. My comments against CSL were first in this post, which CSL continues to ignore.

QFT. BUT. Why still voting CSL? Your vote smells weak and your posts don't give me huge Townie vibes. Not major scum vibes, but overall . . .

At the time, my vote on CSL was more for pressure. He hadn't yet answered my questions, so I didn't want to let him off the hook so easily.

Oooooh, confirm vote by Rhinox feels weirdly scummy, especially because it seems like trying to appeal to Ojanen, who recently said he looked v. scummy. I;d like this guy lynched sometime, okay everyone?

That was the point where my vote changed from "mostly for pressure" to "thinking he's scum". Because Oj brought up a good point and caught CSL in a lie. Considering I don't think I have talked about Oj at all before or since, I don't see how you think that I am trying to appeal to him.

[Rhinox]

ek 796: These are some good points, but wouldn't make me lynch plum today before lynching scum-csl.

I have seen CSL fakeclaim a powerrole as towny in an open setup. Have you ever played with him?

no don't believe I have.


I figured out something thats been bothering me about DGB. ABR-scum wouldn't be pursuing a personal vendetta, he would just be trying to force mislynch. For ABR to be tunneling because of a personal vendetta, that would point to ABR being town. DGB is arguing that a personal vendetta from ABR makes ABR scum, and that is just not the case.

Unless ABR has a vendetta that puts lynching DGB above his wincon regardless of allignment, which makes the tunneling a null tell, but makes ABR anti-town for doing so.

I have never played with DGB or ABR before, so I know nothing of either players meta or any possible vendetta between them. Truthfully, I could really care less right now, because right now in this game, DGB if flailing and looks scummy - ABR does not.

unvote: vote DGB

I think that is L-1 yes?. Claim time.


Its a little late in the day for theory, but I just thought of something. I think it might be better to teleport away neutral players rather than scummy players at night. We can lynch scummy players the next day. Teleporting away the scummy players mean we don't find out their allignment (useful info for scum hunting), and we have to go further down on our scum list to lynch tomorrow.

In other words, if we lynch suspect #1 today, I'd rather teleport away suspect #5 tonight so suspect #2 can be pursued for a lynch tomorrow. i don't think I'd like to see suspect #2 get teleported, not learn the allignment, and then have to go after suspect #3 or lower without knowing the allignment of players I thought were more likely to be scum. Just a thought.

[Rhinox]

I'm still happy with a CSL lynch as well, i'm just starting to doubt it will happen before deadline.

[Rhinox]

Also, sorry for the triple post, but it seems like an awefully long time since we've had a vote count.

As in this morning? I like up-to-date vote counts as much as anyone, and I try hard to provide it, but let's be reasonable.

[Rhinox]

unvote

It would be super cool if we go to night first and the teleporter pulls the other mason over here using DGB's breadcrumb, giving us a confirmed inno for at least tomorrow. Cooler than giant blue aliens, even.

It would be somewhat less cool if DGB had to claim her partner so our teleporter knew explicitly who to pull, but it would still give us a confirmed inno tomorrow.

This would force our scums hands tonight and tomorrow night, so it might not be a bad idea to do what it takes to get the other mason over here.

If the OU goes to night first, they can steal DGB to get the same benefits I mentioned above over there... we don't want this to happen I don't think, because that means someone else gets killed here tonight.

So, we need to go to night first. And we need to not out the teleporter in the process. And then the teleporter needs to know who to pull and we then have a confirmed inno over here tomorrow.

Just some thoughts... discuss. Quickly though before the OU gets active and catches on.

[Rhinox]

ninja'd by fishy sort of: I thought the same person couldn't be tele'd back and forth like that?

[Rhinox]

if I'm wrong, fishy's plan is loads better.

[Rhinox]

6. The limitation on not being able to teleport someone if they were teleported or pulled the night before is meant to mean as follows: The LAST person to be teleported or pulled into your universe may not be teleported back.

If I read this correctly, OU goes to night first and pulls DGB. We MUST send someone over there. That means next night we go to night first and it is within the rules to pull DGB back. Thats where it ends, but DGB lives to D3 as confirmed town.

[Rhinox]

why would scum myko want to tele his partner away?

[Rhinox]

Well, it seems that ABR is going to get lynched.

Unvote; Vote: ABR

...

[Rhinox]

Hi ellibereth nice to see you again. Why should we not lynch you on the spot, considering your former uni thought it better to be rid of you than gain a confirmed townie in DGB, aparently? Why did you vote CSL before reading the thread?

[Rhinox]

good points made here by fishy.

I was wondering why the nk on DGB was even attempted. Technically, it was announced 11 minutes before night ended that ellibereth was entering this uni. Theoretically, that means scum could have made their nk choice during those 11 minutes, thus knowing that DGB was still in this universe. For all we know, they might be allowed to resubmit a nk choice if their target is teleported away, since once a target is gone, they're no longer a legal target. So they could have submitted DGB's name knowing that if she was teleported, they would get to pick a new target.

So what I'm saying is, we don't know enough about the scum side of the mechanics to know if the nk says anything about CSL's allignment. That being said, I still think CSL is scum and needs to die today.

vote: CSL

gayle's vc analysis is points against pops, but in general I have liked the points he has brought up in the game, so I'm not ready to damn him just yet.

I've lost the ability to objectively analyze myko in this game due to our earlier exchange. My gut won't let me think he's anything but scum

Rhinox going after elli was kinda scummy. If we lynch the OU's scum for them, we are not lynching our own.

When they're in our universe, they're our scum. Besides, I wasn't really

going after

elli...

myko...

and while Elli starts out scummy (see rhinox's post) I think we are better off leaving him. Best course of action IMO is to send him back tonight. Even if that doesn't happen,

we should leave him for the chance on crosskills.

About crosskills. I wanted that I could share your optimism, but I don't see scum going for scummy players that are zapped in. Neither do I see the new scum shooting other then players that are likely town.

>_>

[Rhinox]

Sorry everyone, I've had a busy week at work and have fallen a little behind. I should be able to catch up tonight/this weekend. Posting this in all my games.

[Rhinox]

...and FYI I think the OU just hammered jack. So we're probably going to lose or gain a player in the next couple days.

[Rhinox]

vote Rhinox

.

Rhinox, why again was your catchup post for 80% about me or the question I asked?

Pops, Rhinox is someone who has no problem playing town. It are the small things that matter, not the overall impression, you probably won't find him with that.

There is more I need to respond to, but in skimming the thread, I saw this and wanted to respond now.

Myko, why are you bringing this up again, and what type of answer are you looking for?

Lets stop calling it a catch up post. It was my first post in the game, that got me caught up to that point. It was mostly about you because I thought you were scummiest and I wanted to push for your lynch without making my points convoluted by making my post too big and including too much. I intended to branch out from that starting point a lot sooner than I ended up doing, but whatever. I dislike that you continue to refer to that post as a "catch up" post, inferring that because it is a catch up post there needs to be some form of summary or commenting on multiple players.

What do you mean in your second paragraph I quoted above?

[Rhinox]

ugh I'm truly sorry everyone that I haven't been keeping up. I haven't really read anything since my last post but i promise I'll get something up tomorrow.

2 thoughts for now:

CSL is scum and pops is town (I think).

[Rhinox]

getting caught up, but... can someone tell me why shipping CSL over to the OU is any better than lynching him?

Both options (lynching and tele) remove him from our universe, and IF he is town, brings mafia closer to majority.

So, if you want CSL teleported, you should be OK with his lynch as well. If you think CSL is town so you don't want to lynch him, but still want him teleported, that strategy is scummy as hell.

[Rhinox]

I find CSL extremely scummy, so no I can't explain.

Thats also sort of a strawman, because in this game, teleporting someone away achieves the same effect as lynching. Soooooo, as I said before, if you want him teleported, you should be ok with his lynch as well. For example, you want pops lynched. Whats the difference between lynch pops, teleport csl vs. lynch csl, teleport pops? The only difference is in which player we learn the allignment of. Not to mention, teleporting csl does not solve our problem anyways, since there's no guarentee he won't get shipped back over, only it'll be later in the game where we'll have to deal with him.

Plus, I don't think pops is scum right now, although I won't mind if he tones down the flattery a bit. Its starting to seem like buddying, or more likely an "I told you so" scenario if I got lynched, since there is no incentive for scum to have me as a buddy right now due to my activity issues.

[Rhinox]

Yep, CSL just jumps on because he can. And like I said before

I actually think he is town

...

Policy is the only reason we can lynch CSL. And sending him is alike sending any lurker we have now. And finally messing with the other universe (although not productive) would feel good.

unvote, vote myko

If you think he is town, you should not want to send him to the OU regardless of how he is playing. That is willingly removing someone you believe to be town from our universe, which would bring mafia closer to a majority.

Also, weren't you just arguing a little while ago that pulling someone would be beneficial? Why now are you so pro-tele CSL? linky


By the way, with CSL it seems as if he is activly trying to get us to teleport him into the OU. I don't know why anyone would want to get teleported as a strategy, but I don't think we should ablidge him anyways.

Rhinox, do you have something to comment on my case on you?

not really... Your whole case seems to be explaining my actions as if I were scum, rather than using my actions to show how I am scum.

>_>

ok, ok. I'll go back and look.

Rhinox iso 10 seems like it could be a deliberate approach to the biggest wagon at that point (DGB).
Prior to it Rhinox has only mentioned DGB a little, in positive light for the early stance of myko's self meta question being scummy.

Unless you explain how it was a deliberate approach to the biggest wagon, and show evidence that I only took that approach BECAUSE it was the biggest wagon, I can not respond to a baseless circular accusation like this (i.e., the statement only points to me being scum if you start it out with "If rhinox is scum", so its circular)

Ugh. This says nothing except that it's damning unless it isn't.

Thats an overgeneralization and sort of misleading. The meta argument on DGB as presented made her seem scummy, but it would not make her seem as scummy if she acted the same way as town. No different semantically than when players try to connect scum pairs before one of them flipped, or calling someone scummy dependant on the flip of a certain player that hasn't happened yet. Those, and pretty much all accusations can be boiled down to "Its scummy unless it isn't"

+echoes Fishy about DGB being scummy for not paying enough attention on who actually answered mykos question (though he originally liked DGB's stance on the scumminess of the question itself).

Yeah, cuz fishy made a good point. And yeah, DGB's response to mykos question and those who answered I agreed with, but DGB wasn't following up on it consistently. Those are two different issues, so me liking DGB's initial response has nothing to do with DGB not paying attention to her solid scum tells.

Next mention of DGB is straight up this:
...
and
...

Is there an accusation in there somewhere?

Bad context reading btw, DGB asked specifically for 5 names and that's where the CSL townread referred to.

No, I believe I still am right. DGB's reason for calling CSL town was and still is horrible. Scum don't want to have a lot of town reads because it limits the pool of players they can justify mislynching. CSL had no trouble coming up with 5 scum names either, which also fits CSL-scum because if a hypo scum is suspicious of lots of people, thats lots of people CSL can be willing to just jump on to mislynch, and can be effective distancing if he listed his scum partners as scum.

Very small thing, but the wording slightly bothers me due to its activeness. (I associate to a need to find a reason.)
And votes DGB to L-1.
I think elvis brings a good point in this post about the L-1 reasoning - it's basically again the same kind of porridge as the DGB meta being damning unless she does it as town too.

Bad wording? steller scum tell there

I didn't "need to find a reason" to vote DGB, I could have voted her for any of my other reasons I already gave.

regarding elvis' post:

First paragraph makes sense and gives a good reason for voting dgb, but then second paragraph makes his first reason null. Then he flips back and says he doesn't have and firsthand knowledge of any personal vendetta, so he's going to discount the whole thing and still vote dgb because she is "flailing and looks scummy."

The second paragraph doesn't make the first paragraph null unless the "unless" condition is shown to be true, so you can't just say my second paragraph voids the first - its just me considering other possibilities, rather than only zeroing in on the possibility that moves forward my agenda. Redarding the flailing and scummy, I was trying to avoid having to quote lots of posts. But that still doesn't void the "DGB calling ABR scum based on the personal vendetta" point that I made and was still part of the reason I chose to put DGB to L-1 and ask for a claim.

After mason claim and before N1, comes online twice with several posts and an unvote, but they are mostly teleporting theory - no new vote, not going back to earlier CSL vote even though he eyerolls at CSL's bandwagoning, no real comment other than that about ABR lynch that is happening although he earlier expressed not being suspicious of ABR.

@most of this paragraph: is there an accusation in there somewhere?

@the last sentence: 'scuse me? I don't recall ever being or implying being pro-lynch on ABR. I was never realy suspicious of ABR.

Plus there is definite U1 scum motivation for this [lynching eli].

I didn't want to lynch eli. I wanted him to think he was under pressure and have to be forced to react.

And just as an aside, since the OU didn't feel like playing hot potato with DGB for us, it would have been better to ask DGB to claim her partner and then go to night first and steal him, so we'd have a confirmed inno today and we'd know exactly who the scum would be killing tonight. That didn't work out, but we can still pull the other mason over here tonight and have a confirmed inno for tomorrow. I figured out who it is based on DGB's clues.

by the way csl...

PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE SCUM:

evilsnail - Scummy posts
Fishy - See above
Raskol - Not here.
Albert B. Rampage - Not scumhunting enough
elvis_knits - Meta

PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE TOWN:

DGB - Excellent scumhunting

pops - 'Nuff said

Ojanen (Leading Neutral) - Lack of scumslips/tells
(I really can't find anything else)

Also, from the looks of it, the majority is saying pops is scum. Rhinox said pops is town.

Odd..
<snip>
L-2...

Vote: pops

I agree to my teleporting. I really don't care.

Care to explain? (not that I really expect an answer) Anyone else even care about this at all?

[Rhinox]

PS: in case no one read it in my previous post, I'm pretty sure I know who DGB's mason partner is. Would it be a good idea to get him over here and ave a confirmed townie for tomorrow, even if that means he'd be quick to die (forces the scum hand on who to kill, which is good for us because our original town numbers remain).

[Rhinox]

PS: in case no one read it in my previous post, I'm pretty sure I know who DGB's mason partner is. Would it be a good idea to get him over here and ave a confirmed townie for tomorrow, even if that means he'd be quick to die (forces the scum hand on who to kill, which is good for us because our original town numbers remain).

So what lets screw over the U2 and bring their numbers down in town.
Did you see the mafia win condition and the double win condition when you came up with this?

Since we could pull a player from the U2 and they could pull when they go to night next it can have one confirmed town for 2 days max.
Other then that it really sucks.

What sucks about pulling a confirmed town into our uni? What does the mafia wincons have to do with anything? U2 already screwed us overe when they didn't pullDGB anyways now we have a chance to pull the confirmed town what's the downside?

[Rhinox]

I don't know how I feel about CSL anymore, given pops' flip. I should have seen pops-scum coming given his defending of me. His voting for CSL could either be bussing or an easy(ier) target than anyone else to save himself. I really want it that CSL and pops were bussing each other. I think this is evidence to support it:

by the way csl...

PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE SCUM:

evilsnail - Scummy posts
Fishy - See above
Raskol - Not here.
Albert B. Rampage - Not scumhunting enough
elvis_knits - Meta

PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE TOWN:

DGB - Excellent scumhunting

pops - 'Nuff said

Ojanen (Leading Neutral) - Lack of scumslips/tells
(I really can't find anything else)

Also, from the looks of it, the majority is saying pops is scum. Rhinox said pops is town.

Odd..

L-2...

Vote: pops

I agree to my teleporting. I really don't care.

Care to explain? (not that I really expect an answer) Anyone else even care about this at all?

I've been feeling all game that fishy seems town - he's been offering good ideas that would have pro-town results, but its like no one is listening sometimes.

Not sure what I feel about evilsnail right now. Gut scum, but no more than that for now...

I'm undecided so far on hoopla as well. While there are good points against her, it also seems like a good place for scum to push as well if hoopla is town.

Lets see who else is in the game still...

farside, gayle, myko, oja, raskol, ellibereth, maelyn

I don't know what to think about myko anymore. I have gut feelings that farside is scum and gayle is town, but I don't really put much stock in those gut reads right now.oja and raskol are really under my radar. I don't have opinions of them at all.

I really still want to get rid of CSL, but I don't think I'll have much support there.