Teleportation Mafia Universe ONE (MAFIA A WINS!)

[Raskol]

Hello and /confirm and all that.

[Raskol]

On night actions, there is no sensible agreement we can come to - at some point it will be unilaterally broken.

I don't think we should expect cooperative agreements to be broken at all. That might be true if we were both static, monolithic organizations, but we aren't. We're a collection of individuals that may or may not remain on the side of the dimensional rift we're currently on.

Any townie teleporter that uses their actions to fuck over the other universe faces the very real possibility that they will be pulled over to the universe they just fucked over and have to live in their own mess. It seems that our best bet as individuals is to make sure that both towns do really well.

So for both towns, I think, self-interest will help us reach a cooperative solution, not hinder us. Whatever strategy we end up using, we should make sure it ends up being a net gain for both towns as a whole.

Teleporting scummy players to the other universe is a zero sum game, imo, that we should not be playing. A plan like Kairyuu's makes sense, I think, in that it gives both towns a slight advantage.

[Raskol]

There is really nothing I can say to defend myself from "Finding the strategy discussion irritating is scummy". I maintain that it is pointless to continue the strategy discussion.

You would prefer maybe random voting? Jokes about avatars?

Strategy discussion is necessary because what strategy we follow later, if any, will determine how likely it is that we'll reach our win conditions. For that reason, it's kinda important, you know?

In any case, you don't seem to be trying very hard to bring up something different to talk about.

[Raskol]

I don't think you get what

I'm

saying, fish. I'm saying that, from the very beginning, it's in everyone's interests to make sure that both universes are really good places to be.

Scummy players aren't the only ones that have to worry about getting teleported over to the other side. Townie players also have to worry about getting pulled over to the other side. Let's say the other universe's teleporter decides you're really town---they're going to pull you over, and if our universe has been fucking their universe over, that's going to be a bad thing for you. The only way that you can really avoid having a chance of being teleported in the "free for all" situation is if you're really inconspicuous---and that hurts your chances of winning regardless of what universe you end up in.

No matter who you are or how you play, you can't possibly know that you will remain here. So the best bet for every townie is to try and make sure that both universes are doing the best they can. And a game where we all try to fuck over the other town by sending them our garbage is not the way to do that. It ends up helping neither town---we screw them, they screw us, we both end up getting screwed. Zero sum game, no winners.

So, you see, I don't like seeing people talking about screwing Universe Two, because for all I know I'm going to end up there (and the same is true for anyone in the game who's town). I don't like seeing people talking openly about fucking up my chances of winning.

A town teleporter that gets pulled will be confirmed innocent from then on, wherever they are. Sure, they might get pulled back (though it's unlikely). But they are going to have a definite advantage.

This is exactly why Kairyuu's plan is good,

thanks for pointing it out

. Only with his plan we give that advantage to both towns multiple times over the course of the game.

___________________________________________________________________________________


Gayle---Maybe I'm naive, but I would at least hope that discussion of the benefits (or lack thereof) of each strategy would have some chance of influencing 'what teleporter decides'.

[Raskol]

One thing though Fishy, I'm not really arguing against your plan, just arguing against the idea that we shouldn't try and form one that helps both towns.

[Raskol]

I don't think we need to disagree either. You're right that I hadn't read both plans carefully, and I was responding specifically to the part of your post that I quoted.

I've seen a lot of people thinking we're in a prisoner's dilemma, and I just wanted to point out that we aren't. This is more like a prisoner's dilemma

where you're not sure which prisoner you are

. In that case our best option is to choose the outcome that has the highest average utility for both parties.

The part of your post that I quoted seemed to be confirming that idea, and I wanted to make sure that people knew that our goal is to help both towns as much as possible, not to fuck one universe over at the expense of another (unless the gain one universe gets is much greater than the loss the other takes).

If your plan ends up being the best for both universes then I'd be happy to use it. My concern has been to make sure people know what our goal is; I'm less concerned with the implementation, so long as it gets done what need to be.

[Raskol]

ebwop: seemed to be confirming that idea, that idea being that we're in a situation where the best possible thing for you to do is to fuck the other one over while hoping they try to cooperate. (which is

not

the position we're in)

[Raskol]

Well, the reason I liked Kairyuu's plan is that it's the only one I can think of (within game rules) that has no chance of hurting either town and is sure to help both.

[Raskol]

@the new plan---I can live with that.

[Raskol]

Oh, final modification: if the universe two teleporter is a muppet and doesn't claim, pull someone anyway. Then their teleporter on the important day will know we are pulling, and will claim.

If we're going to do a day 1 claim, why not have it immediately? That gives us better odds on the lynch anyway, and it makes this kind of situation avoidable.

If there's some downside to this I'm not seeing?

[Raskol]

The fact that you chose me out of the four people that have posted since game start without voting is interesting---those being myself, mykonian, DGB, Ojanen.

Any particular reason for that?

[Raskol]

Day 1 Vote Count

ace5993 ( 0 )
DrippingGoofball ( 0 )
elvis_knits ( 0 )
evilsnail ( 0 )
farside22 ( 1 ) gayle
fishythefish ( 0 )
flareonage ( 1 ) popsofctown
gayle ( 2 ) fishythefish farside22
infinis ( 0 )
mykonian ( 0 )
ojanen ( 0 )
plum ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 1 ) flareonage
Raskol ( 2 ) evilsnail mykonian
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 8 ) ace5993 DrippingGoofball elvis_knits infinis ojanen plum Raskol Rhinox
Total Votes ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am

I agree with DGB that mykonian's question is pointless and stupid. The sheer naivete it displays in him is townish, though, I think.

[Raskol]

I agree with DGB that mykonian's question is pointless and stupid. The naivete that it reveals in him is townish, though, I think.

[Raskol]

Mafiascum is so laggy the past few weeks that it's not even funny. Hit submit, it shows me an unmoving progress bar for five minutes. I go to the thread, refresh it, no post by me. Try it again. Come back, all of a sudden there are two. Blech.

Anyway....

The fact that you chose me out of the four people that have posted since game start without voting is interesting---those being myself, mykonian, DGB, Ojanen.

Any particular reason for that?

Well, I felt like, in 109 (quoted below), you were sorta drumming up support for the Gayle wagon without committing to it. That can be a scum move. I mean, there were only like three votes on Gayle at the time, so there's no reason to withhold it.

I'm not sure how you managed to interpret that post as meaning I think Gayle is scum. Just because I disagree with someone about something doesn't mean I suspect them of being mafia. In the future, know that when I think someone is scummy, I'll say so clearly.

To clear things up, at this point I have no particular suspicion of gayle. In fact, being willing to take what could be seen as a lazy, anti-town stance is something I regard as a town-tell on the whole (it depends on how it's done ofc, but in this case I think gayle seems more town than not). Most newish scum aren't likely to do something that goes against the grain from what I've seen, especially early on in the game.

[Raskol]

I have to wonder how I'm usually perceived if I get to call peoples' posts pointless and stupid and still get voted for being too nice =P

Anyway, I think I have a scumread now.

vote: Fish

For attacking Gayle on something I think makes Gayle more likely to be town than scum, but which might look like fuel for an easy bandwagon.

[Raskol]

vote: Fish

For attacking Gayle on something I think makes Gayle more likely to be town than scum, but which might look like fuel for an easy bandwagon.

Which point of mine are you referring to here?

Center paragraph in your iso 18.

[Raskol]

I really don't see how I was adding pressure to a gayle wagon btw, assuming there was one at the time.

Here's how I would lay out that exchange:

-I'm taking part in a strategy discussion (sorta).
-Gayle says something about how we shold stop the discussion
-I ask him(her?) what he/she would prefer and point out he/she isn't providing any alternatives (as an answer to his/her complaints)
-I go about my business afterwards and continue the strategy discussion, mentioning gayle again only to explain why I think it's useful that I/we do so.

You're going to have to explain yourself a bit more substantially, ek. More to the point, can you show me any place in any of my posts where an unbiased person might think that I'm encouraging people to vote for gayle or implying that gayle is scum? Because, you know, misrep is bad.

[Raskol]

BTW elvis, while you're answering that, could you go ahead and let me know how usual it is for you to claim town before you even have any votes on you?

A

lso, dgb has almost flawless ability to tell my alignment, so her calling me scum is somewhat of a problem since I'm town.

Maybe it's just because of my computer problems and she hasn't seen enough from me? The weird part is that even if she's scum I wouldn't expect her to call me scum. I've been in the situation where she's scum and I think she feels bad about screwing me over like that. Also she probably knows how I love to be buddied and she can get more of my bees with honey. So I'm confused as to her calling me scum. Perhaps she really does think it... indicating she's town? I don't know. It's a mindfuck for me.

Speaking of subtly egging on bandwagons, would you like to clarify whether you think DGB is scum or town? I can't understand what you're saying through that much defensive waffling.

vote: elvis_knits

(just fyi, this is what it looks like when I want to push a wagon on someone)

[Raskol]

Right now I'm not loving elvis knits, could switch a vote to her if I bothered

yes pls

[Raskol]

ahahaha

What is that I smell? OMGUS?

If you need a wall of quotes/text to point out your flaws, I can do that. (post coming)

Regarding DGB, I'm not trying to waffle. I'm undecided on her. I don't have to be decided on every person at all times. I explained what I am suspicious of (the evilsnail reasoning) and why my read is not clear-cut on her. I am trying to decide, hence my questioning her about evilsnail. And I'm not going to be pushed by you or anyone else to make a decision on her or anyone else.

It's only OMGUS if I don't have a reason for voting you other than your voting for me (example of OMGUS: your speculation of DGB's alignment based on her negative read on you). Early town-claims are pretty good scumtells though IME. Notice you completely ignored that part of my case against you---that's okay, I'll keep drawing attention to it.

I think it's perfectly fine to vote for someone that's voting for you, if they also happen to be the scummiest player in the game. You fit the bill atm.

So, back to your scumminess: you get called scum by one person that doesn't even vote for you---then you claim town, and waffle about your accusers' alignment while they are being pressured by others.

This is a coincidence, if we're to believe what you say.

Meanwhile, the person I disagree with in a completely non-accusatory way (my post wasn't an attack at all, and it won't become one no matter how many times you say it was) and then declare to be likely town, is someone I'm trying to push a bandwagon on.

So when I disagree with someone and later defend them as town, it counts as pushing their wagon. When you speculate that someone could be scum

just for thinking that you are

and then refuse to come out with a read on them, it's okay.

Do you always fail this hard at logic, or is this a scum-specific thing for you?

_____________________________________________________________________________

mykonian---you sure you're not just mad I pointed out how dumb your question was?

If you really do think your point is a good one (frankly I'd think more of you if you were to admit you're just rage-voting but w/e) then let me ask you how switching my vote this early in the game is a scumtell. Care to enlighten me?

[Raskol]

mykonian---you sure you're not just mad I pointed out how dumb your question was?

If you really do think your point is a good one (frankly I'd think more of you if you were to admit you're just rage-voting but w/e) then let me ask you how switching my vote this early in the game is a scumtell. Care to enlighten me?

nope, not mad about that, because frankly, you only said it was pointless, but never argued the theory behind this statement (this is not an invitation, to me you have made your point clear that you are not going to answer it for whatever reason)

To the point, because the above is only an introduction to your play that you try to hide, somebody (I forgot who) called you on not having placed a vote. Suddenly you vote Fishy for a wishy-washy point, without quote. I find you suspicious for this, and post that. Elvis agrees, and you have completely missed that point seen the above post where you strawman me by saying the question is the only post of the case.

But suddenly, without ever mentioning Fishy and your "case" on him, you switch for another interesting target, this time on the accusation that Elvis said she thinks DGB scum, but then again some points are in DGB's favor. That seems like analysis to me, but you vote her for it.

It is not placing multiple votes, it is making bad cases, and avoiding responsibility as soon as people post they were bad (as with your fishy case)

You're either stupid, lazy, or both if you can't figure out what I was attacking fishy over.

I specifically stated my reasons in my post voting for fishy, and when he asked what I meant I pointed it out before I switched my vote. I'm not backing off, I still find fishy scummy. I just find ek scummier and I put my vote where it does best.

And if you can seriously call ek's wafflefest about dgb 'analysis' then I guess I have a reference point for your standards.

[Raskol]

Filed under full of shit townie atm.

[Raskol]

I'm starting to become less suspicious of elvis. Her reactions seem okay to me. I don't have any experience with her, but her newer posts are giving me a picture of the kind of person who could make that townie-claim fencesit waffle post as town. Not totally convinced yet, but I'm starting to reconsider my suspicions.

Want to hear more from Plum, something from CSL, and more from ABR.

Evilsnail, suspicions please. Been seeing you doing a lot of talking but not a lot of it has to do with people's alignments.

[Raskol]

I don't really put much faith in 'slips', tbh. Especially when they're more easily explained by incompetence than by alignment. Still not sold on myko wagon.

ABR is playing his scum game though, at least as far as I can tell. I haven't seen anything out of him that resembles his usual manner of scumhunting from games I've read. He usually likes to be the center of attention from games I've read, playing actively and making people respond to him---except when he's scum. He's not even trying to make an impact atm. Not in pursuit of anyone or anything.

unvote

vote: ABR

Evilsnail, still waiting on something from you.

[Raskol]

Hate it when search is down.

CSL, in your next post, please link me to some (the more the better) of your townie games. You've done several things in this game I recognize from my game with you where you were scum, and I'd like to check and make sure you don't do them as town as well. You're tempting for a vote atm.

ABR---your play so far has reminded me of the way you played in 898---you'd been deferring to other players, making more alignment-irrelevant posts than not, not making cases and not looking for reactions. (at least, that was your play up to the point I voted you---I'm not sure to make of what you're doing now). If it is just you taking a while to get into the game, then fine (although I've read other games you were in where you were town and didn't have a build-up period like you claim here). How would you describe the source of the difference there?

Evilsnail's next post had better have a good deal of alignment-relevant content or I'm going to settle on him as my vote for the day. The posting from him has been almost 100% arguing about theory and nit-picking in non-alignment-relevant conversations. He shows no interest in investigation whatsoever.

(the three players mentioned so far are my highest suspects atm)

_________________________________________________________________

I haven't played in or read any of DGB's games so I have no idea what to say about the meta being pulled on her. Nothing I've seen from her so far has triggered any serious alarms, though I may not know what to look for. Still, unless people can come up with more than they have, I'm not tempted to vote her atm.

Elvis is no longer one of my top suspects, but I wouldn't oppose her lynch if it came down to choosing her or one of my actual townreads.

myko still doesn't seem scum, though I'm not as confident of this as I was.

_______________________________________________________________________

Gayle is town, flare is town, pops is probably town.

Anyone I didn't mention is under my radar for whatever reason or I need more info. Make of that what you will.

[Raskol]

I think DGB and myko are probably both town at this point, tbh. DGB has waaaay too many people on her townlist for me to easily buy a scum win condition for her. Myko is more gutty, but his scumhunting still comes off as genuine, even if misguided (imo). I'll vote for one of them if it comes down to that or a no lynch, but I would prefer someone else.

vote: evilsnail

He's a theoryfluffer and a voteparker. He's posted how many times since his first vote, and none of it content until he's pushed hard for it? It might sound like OMGUS to say this about someone who's voting for me, but seriously, his vote has been parked on me all game yet he's made zero effort to push my wagon---he gave me a brief mention in his most recent scumlist (where he sort of waffles about my alignment) but other than that, zero. Looks a lot like someone waiting to hop on the tail end of a lynch wagon to me, and trying to avoid a voting record. And that impression fits with his pattern of commenting on non-alignment-relevant stuff while avoiding doing much investigation or taking any stands.

________________________________________________________________________

re: me 'lurking'. Yes, I have been somewhat. I'm in 4 games atm, which is twice as many as I've ever been in before at once, so I'm not going to be posting as much in any of them. I've also been relatively busy in the past few days getting caught up on some reading. The fact that this game is moving so fast doesn't make it any better, either.

So whatever.

[Raskol]

I would prefer evilsnail to CSL, but I'd prefer CSL to any of the other people with votes on them atm.

So, yeah.

[Raskol]

If Raskol votes CSL, I guess I'll oblige a vote too.

?

[Raskol]

Got it.

Any particular reason you don't want to vote for snail? :3

[Raskol]

No counterclaim here.

I have mixed feelings about ABR's reaction and would like to hear more from him before I decide what to do.

[Raskol]

Just went through CSL in iso, and it requires quite a stretch to get to the idea that he softclaimed teleporter. He mentioned getting NK'ed, but only in the context of saying that he would be happy just living through Day 1 (ie, not getting lynched for once).

So...the "why is he still alive?" line of thought isn't terribly convincing to me.

I'm still liking evilsnail for my vote, meanwhile.

vote: evilsnail

[Raskol]

Just went through CSL in iso, and it requires quite a stretch to get to the idea that he softclaimed teleporter. He mentioned getting NK'ed, but only in the context of saying that he would be happy just living through Day 1 (ie, not getting lynched for once).

So...the "why is he still alive?" line of thought isn't terribly convincing to me.

I'm still liking evilsnail for my vote, meanwhile.

vote: evilsnail

this makes me slightly sad, after you've seen that reason for a vote is terrible.

?

[Raskol]

Just went through CSL in iso, and it requires quite a stretch to get to the idea that he softclaimed teleporter. He mentioned getting NK'ed, but only in the context of saying that he would be happy just living through Day 1 (ie, not getting lynched for once).

So...the "why is he still alive?" line of thought isn't terribly convincing to me.

I'm still liking evilsnail for my vote, meanwhile.

vote: evilsnail

this makes me slightly sad, after you've seen that reason for a vote is terrible.

?

Here you are.

Well, you correctly analyzed that Elvis voted on a terrible reason, and then...

you vote evilsnail :/

Elvis voted CSL for that reason (among others), I voted evilsnail based on entirely different reasons that you can see if you read me in iso. The tow aren't really related at all, except that I wanted to explain why I didn't feel like voting CSL before returning to my D1 suspicions.

Elvis, I don't think that's the only reason you're voting CSL. I remember what you said about him yesterday. But I wasn't convinced by those and so I'm saying I'm not newly convinced by this new line of thinking. So yeah.

[Raskol]

Day 2 Vote Count

CSL ( 3 ) elvis_knits Ellibereth Rhinox
elvis_knits ( 1 ) mykonian
evilsnail ( 1 ) Raskol
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 0 )
Hoopla ( 1 ) farside22
gayle ( 0 )
mykonian ( 0 )
ojanen ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 1 ) gayle
Raskol ( 0 )
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 6 ) ojanen evilsnail popsofctown CSL fishythefish Hoopla
Total Votes ( 13 )

With 13 alive, 7 needed to lynch.
Deadline: Feb 22nd 19:00 EST

the power of christ compels you

[Raskol]

Voting you for what I see as a pattern of non-involved activity---trying to keep your hands clean and look busy without giving any opinions or making any connections. Vote-parking is just one part of that.

Who do you think is scum? Who do you think is town?

You thought not voting at the beginning of D1 was a scumtell, or at least thought it was worthy of a vote. Why aren't you voting now, on D2, when you should have a better read on things?

[Raskol]

Not voting on the beginning of Day 1 is only a scum tell because it's the RVS.

The only reason I'm not as involved as I should be is because the thread is huge and I'm having trouble getting my head around it. This coupled with the fact that I've been quite busy of late.

I have a fairly clear sense of who's town. I have good feelings about elvis, farside, Ojanen and pops. Scum: you, CSL, fishythefish. But, to be honest, my cases are fairly weak.

You I mainly have a bad feeling about still because your vote feels a bit OMGUSy and your pattern of involvement isn't much better than mine. Sure, I posted some theory-related fluff, but most of that was early on. And your vote on me keeps your hands as clean as mine.

You've made exactly one vote all game, and only a pretty low percentage of your posts actually contain anything that serves to encourage or discourage a lynch of anyone. You've taken few stances and made few connections, either pro or con, with almost anyone. This is a kind of play that makes it very hard to pin anything on you, if you're scum, and if you're town, hurts your effectiveness. Assuming you're relatively competent means I'm inclined to think you're more likely to be scum overall.

That's what I mean by keeping your hands clean and whatever else I might be accused of, it's not something I've been doing, I think.

[Raskol]

Okay, I'm starting to see the type of posting from evil that he showed in his other mini under pressure. My suspicion of him is going down.

Gonna be rereading the thread sometime in the next few days.

[Raskol]

Sorry guys, I need to be replaced. This game is moving way too fast for the amount of time I have to spend on mafia these days. I don't see being able to pick up my activity any time soon.

unvote