A Roccisi Winter - Game Over

[ortolan]

sup guys

[ortolan]

gut tells me that Bogre is scum with someone who told him to claim miller at the start of the game. I'm looking at you Adel.

@borge i am content with your claim since i have tried to get claimed millers lynched before and no one listens

That is not a reason to be content with his claim. It is a reason to be frustrated with his claim. If you tried to get claimed millers lynched then that must mean you think they are more likely than average to be scum (is that right)? If so does that mean you think Bogre is more likely than average to be scum?

Holy cow, everybody should vote tubby asap. That whole "pact" thing is ridiculus.

vote: tubby216

Scummy. Also everyone who voted tubby for his suggestion gets scumpoints. Starting with Annachie.

charter already has some townpoints

Emphatically in support of kyle lynch

[ortolan]

Vote: Kyle99

[ortolan]

hey charter, why are you voting Annachie instead of Kyle?

[ortolan]

Ah, there is what I was waiting for.

gut tells me that Bogre is scum with someone who told him to claim miller at the start of the game. I'm looking at you Adel.

I agree with the first part, and here is me looking at you. Please state

exactly

why you think I would do that, over any of the other 20 players in this game who are not you. I think you are bussing your scumbuddy, and trying to attach his alignment to me.

I would never be so obvious with my scumbuddy in a million years. And I did say it was gut (and probably unlikely to be true in practice), and never pursued it. I just want cred after the game if I happen to be right

The vibe I get is that Bogre is usually deemed very scummy. A perfect counter to that is if he can claim miller at the start of the game. Then as scummy as he acts, and as many times as he may get investigated guilty as a result, he can claim to be town. It seems like the sort of thing someone who was his scumbuddy and meta-ed him would work out, and say "hey, how about if you claim miller right from the start". I thought you were the sort of person who might do that.

I don't think Bogre's claim is automatically scummy, but the potential for the above scenario just leaps out at me.

[ortolan]

I thought you were the sort of person who might do that.

[ortolan]

I didn't say I "think" that, I said it was a "gut" read, which in reality has little possibility of being correct. I certainly don't feel strongly enough about it to defend it at this point in time.

[ortolan]

Scummy. Also everyone who voted tubby for his suggestion gets scumpoints. Starting with Annachie.

If the idea is scummy, why do the people who voted the proposer get scum points?

I didn't call the original suggestion "scummy". "Dumb" would be my preferred word. The responses to it were scummy.

3)ortolan- nice redirection there with miller coached thing and i do npot like your answers when pressured

What about my answers don't you like? Do you understand Adel's attack on me? Do you understand that my original suggestion of an Adel-Bogre scumpair was clearly labeled as gut, something that in practice is incredibly unlikely to be true (me picking two scum players without even seeing the posts of one of them, in my first post of the game), and thus was not worth pursuing? Do you think Adel reacted appropriately to this?

I don't see why he'd propose it as town if he did so as scum and it was shot down- there would be no merit to such a proposal. However, I CAN see a scum motivation- to abuse the WIFOM of his past raising of the issue to make himself look town.

This is a good point actually.

Benmage: what tubby said seems to be the sort of immediately scummy sounding suggestion which scum might jump on. Having done it in another game though where he was scum it's also possible he would do it as scum again though, for WIFOM purposes (as Cobalt said). Which I guess makes me more less certain about the "who's actually scum" dynamics.

[ortolan]

The vibe I get is that Bogre is usually deemed very scummy. A perfect counter to that is if he can claim miller at the start of the game. Then as scummy as he acts

Why does a miller excuse help when a player is scummy, particularly in a game with multilynchs?You don't think first post is the proper time claim miller or it's because it's Bogre doing it you find it scummy.

I don't find it inherently scummy. I can think of rather salient scenarios where it might benefit him as scum though. I also hadn't factored the multilynch thing in at all. I wouldn't necessarily claim miller in my first post but I can understand others doing it.

[ortolan]

yes, "you're only rendering yourself vig-bait by claiming miller" is definitely a point in his favour.

[ortolan]

since the syntax he used indicates that gut only told him that the miller claim is unlikely

no...where did you get that from my post?

and I was waiting for something like it: he was trying to associate a threatening player with a claimed miller who is likely scum.

You were seriously waiting for me to make that bizarre and counter-intuitive connection? I call bs. I didn't even feel strongly about it at the time. Your behaviour has made me really feel awesome about my gut though.

If I hadn't challenged him, then that alleged association with the claimed miller would be subliminally set in the minds of all of the other town players.

Seriously? If I had strongly meant what I said (which I didn't at the time), it would fall into the category of textbook scumtell, where you try to tie someone down to your flailing scumbuddy (assuming I am scum with Bogre)

If Bogre is scum why aren't you voting him, Adel?

vote Ortolan

I agree with Adel that speculating on Bogre's source of claiming is one thing, picking a name out of the hat to pin it on is just tossing dirt that negatively influences perception, even if delivered in a offhand or "just gut and I'm probably wrong" manner.

I call mega BS and mega mega scumminess on this post. Blatant buddying. Adel's position on me doesn't even make sense, it relies on willful misinterpretation of what I said at the beginning of the game (even after I have been at pains to explain what I originally meant). Yet Ecto's more than happy to start the engine on the ortolan-wagon.

vote Ortolan

I agree with Adel that speculating on Bogre's source of claiming is one thing, picking a name out of the hat to pin it on is just tossing dirt that negatively influences perception, even if delivered in a offhand or "just gut and I'm probably wrong" manner.

That logic only works if Bogre is scum. Vote Bogre first please.

QFT * a million. I am trying to tie my obv-scumbuddy Bogre to them, so they should vote me, instead of my obv-scumbuddy. Uh no.

not "only" -- it also works if Ortolan is scum of a different faction from Bogre. Associating another player with a claimed miller he thinks could be lying would be a low-risk moderate-reward decision for Ortolan-scum.

Oh you did not seriously just call what I did low risk...wtf? Yer it's low risk if you consider being attacked by at least three players already for it within a day of the game starting. It's low risk to say something which fits into a textbook scumtell now is it?

not "only" -- it also works if Ortolan is scum of a different faction from Bogre. Associating another player with a claimed miller he thinks could be lying would be a low-risk moderate-reward decision for Ortolan-scum.

I honestly think that it could just as easily come from scum who is not scum with the claimed miller. In that case (ortolan-scum not being on a scum team with Bogre) it really is a no-lose association for him to attempt to make in the minds of others. His worst case is that Borge is town, and he would still have no negative repercussions.

Summary: all the scenarios where ortolan are scum are likely (even though they're all wildly mutually exclusive). This is such an obviously scummy attack, oh my golly.

[ortolan]

shouldn't DeathNote be sitebanned by now?

[ortolan]

I specifically said I don't do wall of texts Adel. but if you want short replies, here you go. You were equally responsible for the wall of texts in Martyr Mafia, where I was really surprised to find you were town because you seemed to go out of your way to prevent me lynching God.

[ortolan]

why bother being honest with my gut when the site play is "Go With Tha ConsEnUSS On WHAT IS sCuMYM RO WELL LYnch uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. UNelses your ScuM ReaDS ConfoRm WitH ThoSE OF thE PlaYER with THe Best ReP in ThE GAme u R ScuMMY"

[ortolan]

also two non-game points because I haven't fully read the game yet:

sopin-whateveryourname is you don't get to take the opportunity, when I am swimming against the tide (of severe impairment); to criticise my posting style. It is a very good posting style. There is nothing wrong with my posting style. No I will not change the way I post for you (it's nothing at all like Mastin, I am simply awesome).

iamausername: DeathNote just posts trash in heaps of games he's not in. Kiiiiiiiiiil him.

[ortolan]

Around how many days into the game do you reckon you'll stop buddying up to Adel, Ectomancer?

[ortolan]

I am officially calling Ecto as scum, right here, right now. I don't care if you guys come with me but you can rest assured I'll be boasting post-game when I'm 100% right.

[ortolan]

do not bring outside influences into games

it's nice to know you treated my sentiments genuinely rather than scummily, even though you claim to find me scummy as evidenced by vote. Can we please lynch this scum right after kyle?

[ortolan]

ok now comes my reply to actual events in the game, now that I have read it. you guys should count yourselves lucky after the horrible tunneling on me that has taken place.

now if this was an honest question, you would wait for my response (since I am obviously online, and you've had typing contests with me before, namely in maytr mafia, which would explain his motivation to try to lay the groundwork for my lynch as early as possible) -- in stead he launches into a wall word attacking me.

this corrupts the signal to noise ratio in the game -- whenever someone disagrees with him he will post huge amounts of words. The effect of this playstyle will yield a 180 page game if we aren't careful, which ends up being too long for town player to dig out the necessary information to identify scum

This is B.S. on so many levels it annoys the hell out of me. You yourself already admitted I had every motivation to act adversarially towards you in Martyr Mafia, including attacking you in the hope people would listen (because as you just said, you were essentially playing to a different wincon to all the "town"-aligned players). I already told you that I had no desire to engage in wall-o-text battles, they are annoying, but they are 100% essentialy when you are being attacked on the most illogical basis that is possible in a mafia game. Secondly, if you know/expect me to post "huge amounts of words" based on a town-game, then it is not scummy. You are conflating (perceived) "anti-townness" with some b.s. about me actually being scummy. Thirdly, you are effectively trying to get me to not talk by saying "ortolan always posts heaps" watch out for him. All these points needed to be made so I've nothing but contempt for those who criticise the length of this post.

~ignoring the rest of Adel's post due to damned if you do, damned if you don't and the fact I really wanted to get that off my chest~

I still find Adel massively scummy but I wouldn't be surprised if he turns up town again having turned all the heat on me for my (innocent) suggestion that he might be scum with Bogre.

You know what, I can't be bothered replying to any more posts, including the horrible questions directed at me. They will just waste time. Hey guys, by the way, charter is 100% obv-town.

[ortolan]

Nice weak bow out. I was looking forward to the search for one.

Yes I treated your sentiments genuinely, I have a town PM to back up my side and interestingly it says nothing about yours. Does my vote really bother you so much?

you managed to make another obv-scum post. congrats.

[ortolan]

ironically I literally meant to reply to the bolded, because it is amongst the crappest arguments I've ever seen. IT ISNT A CONTRADICTION AT ALL. If you have a gut read, and this gut read could fit into a textbook scumtell, then it is still a gutread, but something which is going to be found scummy. If i did this as scum it would be SOME OF THE WORST POSSIBLE SCUMPLAY. If you are town I cannot believe how you don't see how badly you are tunneling. You discourage me from replying to your whole post with this "ortolan posts too much" B.S. then you say "this is the real reason ortolan didn't post *points to crappest logick of crappest logick*" are you actually serious Adel?

[ortolan]

my desire to lynch deathnote comes from him posting in a spree of games he wasn't even in; clearly deliberately. Lynching/replacing/modkilling are all equally desirable to me.

[ortolan]

Adel that's different, my reasons for wanting him lynched are simply based on his meta. I fully expect him to try to deliberately ruin the game, considering how he has been deliberately baiting the mods in other games he's not even in. I don't believe a policy lynch would be problematic considering the unlimited lynches rule. Although replacement would be a better option, however we can't force him to replace (can encourage him to do so though with threat of policy lynch).

I expect that his scumbuddy told him: "claim miller immediately first thing on day 1. Find a miller thread in MD to back you up."
other Miller threads in MD back claiming immediately on day 1.

Yes. Good. This is what I was getting at too with my post that started the shitstorm.

Sanhora's 371 looks scummy 2 meeee

Ortolan and I have history, only in this case the constant is antagonism, not cooperative competition.

Really? Sorry to hear that. I have no personal dislike of you, this is just the way I play mafia. Although I remember some argument in md/gd also.

@ Ecto's 387. That's not scummy because from what I've seen trying to coerce a deathnote lynch has no downsides.

@ Ecto I will say I don't like the dynamic you claim to have with Adel. Firstly it deprives most of the game of having a say, it also gives you an out for playing "manipulatively" as scum, and finally it makes you look way scummy when (if) you are town.

I will give my vote to Bogre. Adel what is your position on kyle presently?

Unvote
Vote: Bogre

[ortolan]

I sense zero deviaton from charter's pro-town meta. I cannot recall when if/I've seen him as scum though.

[ortolan]

confident you're going to live till tomorrow are you plummy-scummy?

ortolan seems to be concentrating more on antagonizing Adel and Ecto, the main drives behind his wagon, than making a logical and clear counterargument to their points. Instead of calling Adel's logick crappy, why not show how it is crappy? Claiming that what Adel says is a contradiction is, in fact, not a contradiction isn't really a counterargument in the strictest sense.

if it wasn't clear I don't think Adel is scum at all. Amongst other things he has offered to lynch himself day two. The only way that would work as scum is if he's lining up the lynches of 5 town players in the expectation he's going to die at some point anyway, and knows this will be a huge boon for his faction. This seems *relatively* unlikely, considering the process by which he acquired those reads, but I do need to look at it again.

For example I am very very confident charter is town. The way he declared himself and poptajo town and Bogre "very likely town" is heaps not-scummy. That said I think it's a good bet he's wrong about Bogre.

I am particularly unsure as to why Adel wanted to lynch tajo and will obv have to re-read the game to look at the rationale

[ortolan]

also iamausername's scumlist of me nhammen and annachie is completely nonsensical considering annachie was one of the dudes I opposed at the start of the game, and nhammen voted me earlier. Please explain that alpha centauri man.

[ortolan]

since when were you in this game? (that was a rhetorical question). lurk less.

Ignoring questions, no matter how retarded you think they are, is scummy.

blah blah blah no it wasn't in the context, sorry. when you're stuck between a rock and a hard place you gotsa to choose one or the other, and I just happened to choose the easier of the two. Don't make me vote you by pushing scummy arguments like this.

[ortolan]

Starbuck I am sorry if you interpreted my response to you as obnoxious, it was not intended to be. You do need to understand the context of why that accusation was frustrating however.

[ortolan]

Also, in this case I take Starbuck replacing out as a town-tell personally

[ortolan]

yo guys I will post some content in dis game soon. I swear yo

[ortolan]

yo, got prodded, I'ma post real soon

[ortolan]

Sorry, I have lurked for far too long. Was busy with Christmas and was really enjoying this game so wanted to put some effort in when I actually posted. Correct me if I'm wrong but re: Adel's 516, Benmage actually inadvertently claimed to have another qt?

This looks like town on town to me.

The confidence of this assertion stuck out like a sore thumb. Cobalt's response is 100% the same as mine (p.23) Let me go on record as saying I am strongly suspicious of nhammen.

Suspicious of the Annachie voters past this point e.g. Plum (664), who is still "waiting for tomorrow" for her stuff on me and who agrees with the "townie on townie" vibe (bs).

holy crap benmage is so obv-scum when I read post 665.

tbh I'm a little less sure when I read Adel's 683. Adel, weren't you just before talking about inciting others to modkill themselves? Now you're calling him a cheater for trying to modkill himself? Que?

I'm a bit partial to rofl's read on Ecto

ok, to-die today list:

Benmage
Bogre
nhammen (ahead of kyle now)
kyle (because he's still a prime wagon and could still be scum)

we can talk about lynching anyone else after we've lynched all (or most) of these players. For now I will vote kyle as it will be the most populous wagon I favour. Can we put this lynch through? We very very very very definitely need to lynch Benmage and Bogre AT SOME POINT TODAY though.

[ortolan]

Vote: kyle99

[ortolan]

all the more reason to remove him (sorry kyle). He is fourth on my lynch list.

[ortolan]

Vote: kyle99

ortolan, I'm interested in your rationale for voting the 4th on your to lynch list.

I'd be interested in you reading my post, which blatantly explains the rationale

[ortolan]

Orto, please elaborate on what’s scummy to you about post 371.

Um tbh I'm not actually sure. Looking back at it it looks fairly innocuous. Maybe I had my scum-coloured glasses on.

sigh

ok guys, if i help you lynch kyle first, then can we

please

lynch benmage, followed by phate/ecto and nhammen?

unvote, vote: kyle

YES.

Anyway, if rofl is prepared to compromise, I can get behind a kyle wagon too. Just make the Benmage lynch happen.

Yep, we're doing that. Vote now, don't delay!

Adel, i was not very comfortable.

Also adel, im not sure but are you trying to break the setup?

?

looks like kyle is fairly close to a lynch. all those posting who don't vote him or haven't already voted him, explain why. That Pyotr Buttonmen vote is particularly spurious.

[ortolan]

what sort of doc?

[ortolan]

does your doctor ability have any modifiers?

[ortolan]

tbph I don't really wanna lynch kyle today (:S). I would lurrrrrrrrrrve to lynch nhammen though.

[ortolan]

Neopi br0 you're heaps scummy

[ortolan]

Unvote

[ortolan]

adel do you still like a kyle lynch?

also DeathNote is still welcome to die anytime

[ortolan]

ok, fine

Vote: kyle99

[ortolan]

btw, Adel, do you think it's possible he just forgot he'd turned 15? (not that it's relevant now)

[ortolan]

after kyle is officially deaded we are killing benmage, and if possible also bogre and nhammen. that would be an excellent first day.

[ortolan]

happy birthday Benmage! Sorry if this isn't the best birthday present

Vote: Benmage

[ortolan]

Ortolan,
I dont remember much from ortolan all the game, except a heavy fight with Adel early that went nowhere. Strangely enough, Ortolan is the first one supporting Adel's position. What changed about your opinion of Adel?. Also who is scum and why?

You can probably find a good indication of who I find scummy by looking at my list of 4 people (now 3 due to kyle's death) who I want to lynch. Hint: it's Benmage, Bogre, and nhammen.

Adel's cases have looked legitimately reasoned to me, although I still don't recall where his case against you came from.

My main understanding of the Benmage wagon is that he *claimed* or inadvertently claimed membership of another quicktopic to his neighbourhood, then denied it (correct me if I'm wrong on specifics). That is more than enough for me. That and the whole "better lynch Adel before you see my flip guys".

I recall supporting the Annachie wagon at the start of the game, but I'm not sure why so many people are piling onto it right now. For an addition to my list I'd go with Neopi. This guy is noobscummy. He can slot in next to nhammen.

I believe I forgot to do this:

vote: Charter

Explain?

[ortolan]

Welcome Nuwen!

[ortolan]

Here's a question for you, Ortolan. What did Charter feel about the Kyle lynch? How does Charter feel about, hell, anybody but Annachie and Neopi? Can you answer these questions?

I would answer but I don't feel like rereading at present. charter, care to help me out here? I will of course re-examine him eventually, but for now, town.

Is ortolan always as lol-scummy as he's been this game?

Ortolan hammers kyle. What the fuck.

Explain this please? Wouldn't this definition of "lol-scummy" be more correlated with changing your vote 3 times in one page without reasoning for any of them?

Bogre, before I vote for you, a question.

Are you in a neighbourhood/masonic group?

QFT, except I will vote you because you're not close enough to being lynched yet.

Vote: Bogre

[ortolan]

guys after this do you wanna just be really indulgent and kill Neopi, nhammen and DeathNote?

[ortolan]

Explain this please? Wouldn't this definition of "lol-scummy" be more correlated with changing your vote 3 times in one page without reasoning for any of them?

Sorry I missed this. No, hopping votes really isn't a scummy thing to do in 90% of situations. I just find the tone of your posts extremely scummy, and I don't like how you hammered a doc claim.

I didn't say that hopping votes is scummy. What about me hammering a doc claim didn't you like? What is scummy about the tone of my posts? All you said is "hehe ortolan is scummy" (without giving any reasons why) then proceeded to completely redirect your attention.

[ortolan]

also your vote-hopping serves no purpose whatsoever, all it is doing is potentially slowing down viable lynches.

On that topic, we can discuss new lynches once we've done Bogre.

[ortolan]

One quick thing.

Replacement Imbound

UNVOTE: TaterTheTot

can we lynch this guy after deathnote please? Please give me a good rationale for the charter wagon, not just "his behaviour is kinda similar to how he played as scum", when his "behaviour" consists of the observation that he hasn't posted recently.

[ortolan]

Vote: Tate

[ortolan]

Also at least one of the games he posted about with in a game he isn't part of is still ongoing, Classy

That's why I wanted to policy lynch him to begin with.

[ortolan]

I can't take it anymore. I even looked through some of orto's other games and I just can't get over how scummy his posts feel here, in this game alone as well as relative to his other games.

unvote
vote: ortolan

Yeah...you're full of it. Please explain how I am "lol-scummy" compared to my completed town games. Whose alt are you btw? Also, care to VoTE FoR A ViABle WagON iNstEad oF LayING doWN usElessS VoteES ConstaNtly? feel free to petition people to vote for me but as it stands this is yet another useless vote by thee.

tate needs one more to be lynched. no, I will not vote charter. I will vote Pyotr particularly if he fails to reveal whose alt he is.

[ortolan]

refresh my memory crypto, have I played with you before?

[ortolan]

just re-read some of charter. lynching him is horrible. no way would he start beef with Ecto, then tunnel badly on Annachie, before dropping off the face of the earth, like very unselfconscious town, if he were scum.

we haven't heard much from Ecto's replacement now have we?

crypto, your votes suck. the nhammen and me suspicionz combo is particularly horrible.

[ortolan]

his normal style: tunneling (check), leading the town (tried it a bit, may be doing so less due to multitude of other dominant players present). This is my meta of him off the top of my head, based on stratego mafia and the mithvitational game, where he played really well IIRC

[ortolan]

wait not stratego, I meant notre dame

[ortolan]

Sample size of two games. Cute.

My argument for him being town is independent of my meta read, I said that because I was asked because charter's meta is. If I can only recall two games then that's all the knowledge of his meta I'm gonna have, isn't it.

[ortolan]

what r u talking about?

[ortolan]

Vote:

Neopets

Neopi

If someone wants to court me over to the Annachie wagon I may potentially listen. Give me your best shot

chartreuse

charter + friends

[ortolan]

lynching charter for the sake of it, even though he's obv-town, is scummy. Are you happy to vote for anyone, Nuwen, just to get more lynches in?

Phate's rationale for voting charter is particularly terrible. His "no content" thing is just heaps scummy, I dunno how to describe it but it's kinda like attacking him for not conforming to a formal conception of what is "good play", while ignoring the fact he's attacked numerous people, which isn't a scummy quality at all. For example I am perfectly capable of being town and - not being bothered to fully articulate why I find people scummy - not having enough time to fully articulate why I find people scummy or - not actually being able to articulate why I find people scummy, which is kind of how it is with Phate's post.

Firstly I do know some people try to get by just on gut/unreasoned reads as scum, but that's usually because they do it as town also so they think/know they can get away with it (see e.g. DGB). It's totally counter-productive if you *don't* play like that as town to begin with though, like charter.

Secondly I don't see charter leaving so many links with his attacks if he expected to go down as scum.

[ortolan]

ortolan just got

so much

scummier. that was a too scummy to be scum fallacy he just dropped on charter's behalf.

i'm in the midst of a forty eight hour drunk, so i can't guarantee i'll be around again before deadline. charter needs to die. my vote is already in place, its time everyone else got on board.

I disagree, because I don't consider the behaviour of voting/attacking without reasoning or apparently without reasoning scummy to begin with.

[ortolan]

hey charter, would you be willing to exchange your life for Annachie? How about Neopi?

[ortolan]

hey charter, would you be willing to exchange your life for Annachie? How about Neopi?

[ortolan]

hey charter, would you be willing to exchange your life for Annachie? How about Neopi?

Umm, I'm not really sure what you're asking here. If I had this cool role where I could suicide and kill two people, I would have done this a long time ago. Unfortunately, I am not a double bomb.

If you're asking if I would make some sort of deal where I help lynch myself if the town agrees to then lynch those two, no. That's extremely antitown and idiotic.

assuming a choice between these alternatives:

charter + (Neopi and/or Annachie) is lynched

or

no-one is lynched

which would you prefer, and in what combination?

[ortolan]

What are people's opinions on Ecto/Phate btw?

[ortolan]

Charter, I still think Neopi is self-destructive inexperienced town. His wagon was/is a mix of mostly town with two or three scum (depending on number of scum in the game). I honestly don't even remember who exactly was on it and when. I'll have to look back.

What are people's opinions on Ecto/Phate btw?

Did you ask this just to fit into the conversation? What's your view of Phate?

Scummy (I thought that was kinda apparent from me drawing attention to him having criticised his attack on charter). What are your opinions on him?

Logging in and out of your alt must get tiring.

[ortolan]

I don't like that case Adel. You can present anything as logically deficient if you go about it the right way. It's similar to Phate's case on charter imo.

How are you feeling about Phate, Adel?

[ortolan]

I would say wait for a claim but he's seemingly already implied he's not a PR by asking to be "saved from this game". I am happy to hammer, because not lynching him now he's on L-1 is a terrible idea.

[ortolan]

Unvote
Vote: charter

TDC, we need you

[ortolan]

yer and if he gets here soon we stand a decent chance of culling Neopi also

[ortolan]

Vote: Neopi

Read in iso, very newb but also scummy. Joins all the major bandwagons, stilted posting style, gave up and declared he was gonna be lynched in his last two posts when everyone else was lynching charter (also didn't vote for charter despite his being the only alternative wagon).

[ortolan]

hello

[ortolan]

whoever Bogre was a mason with...you suck

really

[ortolan]

it's possible he's a lone mason, I guess (cause being a genuine mason miller would kind of make the miller part redundant one would think)

Pyotr-tubby scum with Neopi I'm feelin' with a side of Phate

[ortolan]

I guess I'm ok with massclaim (I can see it being potentially disastrous though).

[ortolan]

yep. we badly need to kill Pyotr

scum

[ortolan]

Ortolan, you were pretty hard core about policy lynching tate for being a Deathnote alt. What other games have you had with Deathnote? Links, please.

I don't think I have played any games with him. It was because he posted in like 10 threads deliberately, in which he wasn't even playing. Lovely player to get rid of. I couldn't regret anything after he posted in the thread pretending his alt was his brother.

crypto, you seem to think that if I attack you and then you attack me and I attack you again, that means I am OMGUSing you. No, it means you are OMGUSing me. You are scummy for so many reasons- your attacks on me are deeply horibbly scummy but there's many other horrible things like your terminal insistence on being completely useless day one, I will write them up when I can be bothered

[ortolan]

Ortolan, you were pretty hard core about policy lynching tate for being a Deathnote alt. What other games have you had with Deathnote? Links, please.

I don't think I have played any games with him. It was because he posted in like 10 threads deliberately, in which he wasn't even playing. Lovely player to get rid of. I couldn't regret anything after he posted in the thread pretending his alt was his brother.

before or after his first post in this game did he post in those other threads?

Why did you want to lynch him in this game?

Were the two of you in Realistic Mafia II together?

I'm 99% sure it would have been before his first post in the game. I assume most of those posts he made got deleted though.

Because day one is policy lynch day (actually technically any day on this setup is policy lynch day)

/me checks. yes we were.

[ortolan]

actually scratch that I am actually in multiple ongoing games with him apparently (ones which I haven't been paying attention to, truth be told). I had totally forgotten.

[ortolan]

you were scum in that game, and you did not attempt to policy lynch DeathNote in that game. Why not?

I don't see why I would do that? My scumstyle can be best represented by "me playing as closely as possible to how I would as town".

As scum, why did you kill ZazieR N0 in that game?

Well me and ZazieR kind of had an ongoing thing where I killed him as scum/called for him to be lynched etc. Was really quite funny. He was actually scum in most games also.

[ortolan]

you were scum in that game, and you did not attempt to policy lynch DeathNote in that game. Why not?

I don't see why I would do that? My scumstyle can be best represented by "me playing as closely as possible to how I would as town".

Are you trying to say that you wouldn't push a Deathnote policy lynch as scum because you wouldn't do it as town? Really?

As scum, why did you kill ZazieR N0 in that game?

Well me and ZazieR kind of had an ongoing thing where I killed him as scum/called for him to be lynched etc. Was really quite funny. He was actually scum in most games also.

What did he do to instigate your policy of killing him in all games regardless of your alignment? How consistant were you in killing him, out of the games where you had a choice?

In answer to first question: No that's not what I'm trying to say. I didn't really understand the question- I don't see what my motivation for pushing a policy lynch of him in that game would be. In relation to this game, if I am scum, then I did have motivation for policy lynching him- it's a way to get rid of a townie on the pretext "he acts anti-town (and ruins games)". Assuming I am scum this game, I would have a pretext for policy lynching him. However, in that game, I would not. Additionally this game has a mechanic that makes policy lynches desirable, whereas that game did not. I don't have a "lynch on sight" policy for DeathNote anyways, those sorts of things are extremely anti-town. This is a unique setup.

In answer to second question: um...I don't really remember. It was a combination of pushing for his lynch *and* I'm pretty sure there was at least one other game where I nked or tried to nk him but I can't remember off the top of my head.

I'm pretty astonished you're going with Pyotr's attacks Adel.

• Cobalt flip-flopped.
  
• Ortolan
  heavily
  flip-flopped, but he did want a Neopi lynch. Don't know why Neopi couldn't be saved till day 2, though, and that goes for everyone else.

This is the worst attack I have ever seen in the history of a mafia game. Firstly: I don't know what the hell "flip flopping" is supposed to mean, I'd like him to explain that please.

Don't know why Neopi couldn't be saved till day 2, though, and that goes for everyone else.

Translation: I'm so damn scummy I called Neopi, who was scum, obv-town, and lynched charter. Ortolan, who always said charter was town and Neopi was scum, is scum for...flip flopping (except I didn't, I never thought charter was scum and only hammered him because not doing so at that point was anti-town. Plus if I hadn't hammered we might not even have lynched Neopi). As charter said, the scum are attacking me for knowing he was obv-town and that Neopi was scum (HAviNg good reads is scummy guys, especially when it's ortolan).

The worst thing of all is that cryptoscum was continually insisting yesterday I was scum, and after all these flips which should lead him to revise his reads...is still insisting I am scum. Die scum die.

Vote: crypto

[ortolan]

can you explain the colour coding please Adel

[ortolan]

oh what the fuck....wow I can't believe crypto got away with this crap.

I should have been like first on the Neopi wagon, the votecount got screwed up because apparently charter wasn't actually lynched (and I wasn't around at the time of Neopi's second coming. You can count me as very very very much on the Neopi wagon please (as was evidenced by my posts at the time?)

[ortolan]

Watch as Plum shores up Pyotr's case on me while engaging in some obligatory distancing

We should lynch Pyotr and Plum today (and Phate maybe). Not nhammen.

You guys need to stop claiming I'm scum for killing DeathNote. Look, it was day one, we can (and did) policy lynch anyone we want- most of the lynches are probably gonna miss anyway, why the hell can't I lynch someone who went for a BANME (from the site) like a week ago.

[ortolan]

I guess I'm ok with massclaim (I can see it being potentially disastrous though).

Let me explain what this means for you Plummy. It means I am ok with the notion of a massclaim- there are quite a few scenarios where cross-confirmations would help us and potentially break the game. There are also some things I see totally screwing us up (just outing power roles without a means of protecting them, the scum fakeclaiming or getting faux-cleared and outnumbering the town at some point on the possible chain of lynches etc.) I did not see any reason the latter was more likely than the former however. And it was Adel proposing it

[ortolan]

here, give me a bit to do something else (nhammen is scum)

[ortolan]

okay, there's no harm in this cause nhammen's clearly already told his buddies. I am an even night-cop. I claimed cop to him (after he had done a positive SLEW of scummy stuff in our quicktopic, including asking for us to claim our roles, completely ignoring the kyle wagon when it was taking place early on day one [kyle was the other member of our neighbourhood], and editing one of his posts and making a faux-apologetic fuss about it (I suspect he meant to post in his scum qt but posted in our neighbourhood inadvertently).

Having denied his original requests for a claim of neighbourhood abilities, I hatched a plan- my original intention was to tell him I was a cop (after all, even night cop = limited usefulness anyhow, you need to survive two nights for your ability to be of any use, plus if he was scum I suspected he would kill the only surviving member of his neighbourhood off on one of the two nights) say openly in the game-thread just before deadline hit precisely what I had done- that I had told him I was a cop. If I died then this would make it highly likely he was scum, and that he would be lynched shortly thereafter.

ofco he surprised me by claiming odd night cop (note: I had not claimed even night cop originally, only "generic" cop- whereas he specifically claimed odd night-cop,

and

said "are you sure there's nothing affecting your sanity" etc. the symmetry with my role made me assume he was telling the truth. What is clearly the case, is that he

is

an odd-night cop (there's absolutely no way he could have guessed something symmetrical with my own role especially when I had emphatically told him I was simply a "cop" to begin with). However he is also scum.

Firstly there's the above stuff- it was why I was so suspicious of him day one. Note this stopped when he claimed odd night cop. Now he claims I was "buddying" to him (yes well OBVIOUSLY I had assumed you were town when you claimed odd night cop, evidently that was a mistake).

Secondly the bulletproof thing is bs (do you even find out if your bulletproof vest gets depleted, if you have one?). That would make it strictly better than my role, which has no such ability.

Thirdly, in the QT, his second last post made at 8:41 "ET" US time on the 5th (Adel posted timestamps from paraphrased QT conversations earlier so I'm assuming it's allowed) is him claiming to have a bulletproof vest. That was the

first

time he mentioned it in our QT. Then in-game, Jan 06 5:10pm Aus time he posts:

I told my neighbor I had a vest so he could corroborate my claim.

When he posted it in our qt was after the last time I even checked/posted in this game. How exactly does this enable me to "corroborate" anything? It proves nothing but that he posted something in our QT presumably a bit before he posted it in-thread.

Finally: oh yer, rofl's results. the action wouldn't have resolved if he'd been rbed. Also for quite the lol he said in our qt (paraphrased) that rofl's claim entails that I am scum. lol?

Vote: nhammen

ye baby.

[ortolan]

===[]

[ortolan]

by the way the crap Pyotr spammed just made him even likelier to be scum in my eyes (who assumes such a supposedly logical demeanour then regresses to puerile and unfunny insults and youtube linkage? only someone trying to obfuscate stuff relevant to the game, that's who).

[ortolan]

very keen for your reads Howard

[ortolan]

I don't actually recall any meaningful posts coming from either Sanhora or Richard

[ortolan]

Buttonmen is a good wagon, based on behaviour in rofl's qt and that he is another player who I don't recall hearing anything meaningful from all game. I wouldn't mind hearing his side of the QT interaction first though.

[ortolan]

Richard I have no experience with your meta, but the problem for you is that your predecessor was actively scummy (or at least I feel he is). You can't just negate that to a null-tell by not posting at all (if anything that in itself would normally be scummy, although I'm prepared to give you leeway based on your lack of experience). So yer, post some scumreads please.

[ortolan]

that is a good outcome

[ortolan]

the most important thing: Buttonmen- did rofl accurately describe what went on in your qt? do you think his impression of your connection with nhammen is valid? if not why not? you've referred to his "claims of what happened in the QT"- are they actually misleading? how?

[ortolan]

mmm well frankly rofl had strong potential town motivation for keeping the soloist vig thing secret (as well as strong potential scum motivation). I personally don't feel he'd be so bold as to try that as scum.

I get the impression he hasn't actually lied about anything in the qt at all though, buttonmen, you just have differing interpretations of each other's behaviour?

[ortolan]

If rofl was scum, I don't see why he'd inform the town of having received an amnesiac tracker result.

yer exactly, it's not like he could have fakeclaimed it as scum- if we ever massclaimed he'd be outed when no-one claimed amnesiac tracker (unless he got one of his buddies to claim it, but that would be horribly risky).

Unvote
Vote: TheButtonmen

[ortolan]

Unvote

when Richard's playerslot gets replaced back in they can c/d

[ortolan]

I just realised I incorrectly thought Richard replaced crypto

[ortolan]

tubby 'n' tajo are probably town

Vote: HowardRoark

What are your reads, Howard?

[ortolan]

I just made it through D1 read.

I see that D2 started with a mass claim discussion. Did this happen? Do I owe a claim? If so, what pieces?

I also see that I am the vote leader. Can I see links to cases?

I'll continue my D2 read but check the thread from this post on to respond to whatever I can while I finish.

scummy delaying tactics (someone else can oblige him, here's what I recall: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 52#2051652 http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 55#2043455 http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 87#2043487 http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 00#2045200).

Also note how Phate seeking replacement at this point will make his player slot far less likely to get lynched today.

Also note how Plum in 2177 is still attacking me before saying she believes my claim, and is again relying on bad semantic scumtells e.g. her reading scumminess into ""I guess I'm ok with massclaim (I can see it being potentially disastrous though"" even though I already explained here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 03#2045203

[ortolan]

we should definitely lynch Howard before end of day

the whole DGB-Cobalt-tajo thing is confusing me. I'm willing to give DGB replacing Adel loads of town cred. Cobalt has felt town all game also, he's definitely engaging in the game loads compared to *ongoing games*. tajo actually seems to be playing too abrasively to be scum though. sooooo...all town possibly?

Starting to dislike Socrates, especially his lengthy if-then lists which look like a lot of work for little insight (hint: you can't gain town cred just by doing a lot of work, at least against good players).

Plum please stop the whole "disappear then make dense and verbose post".

[ortolan]

LOL

[ortolan]

I might remind both yourself AND Adel that work != town

Please explain this one to me. I've seen numerous games where scum bust their guts doing stuff which is ultimately useless in an attempt to prove they are more townie. They do this because it usually works. This does not mean it's a valid town tell. It isn't at all. If anything it's the opposite where there is no valid insight contained therein.

~ I do actually agree with Socrates about the number of lynches today. Now is not the day to be going past the point of no return with lynches.

[ortolan]

I think I am misunderstanding your post in its context. It seems that Socrates *did* just put a lot of work into his analysis, and DGB is saying he is scummy in spite (or because) of this. Yet you say "work is not a town-tell". This does not contradict what DGB is saying at all. In fact, as I said, when you provide a lot of work for little reward I do actually view that as scummy.

[ortolan]

inspected Ecto, town

also I am town, in spite of nhammen's flip (I'm not sure how we managed to be so wrong about one another).

rofl being gambiting scum doesn't make much sense to me but out of necessity I will vote him and Plum today.

[ortolan]

Also Socrates is INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS scum. Look at his crap yesterday with "if nhammen flips town then...ort is scum etc." He blatantly knew nhammen would flip town and was obviously trying to line up lynches, albeit in a noob way.

[ortolan]

Reading comprehension. She didn't die from bodyguarding.

?

[ortolan]

DGB: you know I don't lurk as scum (Adel's game, Sushi Mafia, Past Ages Mafia!), nor do I (universally) spam as town: moviestar madness etc

also even if I were lurking (which I'm not), I'm actually posting in this game more frequently than any of the others I'm in (which if you checked you'd see that I got prodded in recently). I've been busy and the site issues often deter me from putting the effort into posting currently.

elvis: I have no idea if you're full of it or not, but handily your claimed results are completely unconfirmable.

[ortolan]

and nabbing Ort, who is absolutely certainly irrevocably scum after all this may actually put us in a position to do stuff like win.

Please explain how I am irrevocably scum in the horrid case you are actually town.

[ortolan]

I blame nhammen for this, I swear he was trying to act as scummy as is metaphysically possible

[ortolan]

Socrates I didn't inspect you because I expected you to get vigged for being obv-scum, or simply lynched anyway. That will still happen, let me assure you, considering I will sacrifice my life for yours.

[ortolan]

Did I say both? I meant watcher. Somehow I seem to be doing this really really badly... but I did mean watcher.

so how would roleblocking a watcher prevent them from incriminating me? they can only see who targets me, not who I target

[ortolan]

Plum is very very very likely to be scum. Confirmed town confirming her as scum, she's claimed miller but the chance of that actually being true is real low.

[ortolan]

Ecto: earlier you seemed to say there was something that implied the cause of Annachie's death wasn't her bodyguarding someone- can you explain what this was please?

[ortolan]

I concur. I'd like to see Nuwen's "breaking order for information revelations" also.

[ortolan]

LOL

Vote: end the day

[ortolan]

^^ that doesn't really mean anything, particularly as the scum may well no longer have the ability to kill at all.

Vote: Nuwen

Thou have lurked too much

[ortolan]

Hai Ort. Result?

don't get investigations on odd nights

[ortolan]

I'm kinda tempted to massclaim actually

[ortolan]

Nuwen 'n' Socrates sound good

[ortolan]

Socratic irony, Socrates is town.

MC is the order of the day, we can probably confirm more town or back scummies into the corner by working out why scumkill failed on night...3.

[ortolan]

wait, Ecto, what was that stuff about Annachie's bodyguard target being town?

[ortolan]

Ecto do you think it would be good play for town to lynch you prior to LYOL/endgame/whatever?

[ortolan]

I am considering whether you are an SK with bulletproof/godfather

If there was an SK in the last game then there's a good probability that expectation would be subverted for this game. It's interesting that you specifically referred to that game though, that reminds me of a technique I've used as scum in the past- there were two games in a row where I was scum with Empking. In the second one I deliberately referenced (in the context of a meta read or something) the fact I had previously been scum with Empking. I hoped that by deliberately referencing a past game where we were scum together people would subconsciously think "oh well they're unlikely to be scum again together this game" and would explicitly think "surely he wouldn't reference that game if he were *actually* scum with Empking this game". Anyway the point iss......you might have been "leading with the king" so to speak, trying to look good in the inevitable WIFOM over whether you are in fact an SK by bringing it to the fore to begin with.

The other thing is that if there's no town killing rules you being bulletproof would be enormously beneficial- the scum couldn't kill you and if they tried unsuccessfully to, they couldn't make anything of it without saying "hehe well actually I'm scum, and I *can't KILL ECTO*"

On the other hand if you were scum I'm not sure why you'd claim the bulletproof aspect of your role to begin with. This requires further consideration.

[ortolan]

I don't think a mafiate would be bulletproof, the question is far more over whether Ecto is SK. I also don't think Cobalt outing the watch results is scummy at all, scum roleblocker was VERY LIKELY to target ellibereth as ellibereth effectively claimed PR when outing Plum as scum.

[ortolan]

Ecto possibly, not sure on anyone else atm (will have a look back soon I guess). Unless anyone comes up with good night action plans etc. e.g. the one Ecto seems to be hinting at.

[ortolan]

I agree with Cobalt, this SK stuff is basically a huge pile of WIFOM. I don't think any of the arguments Ecto gives for him not being an SK are convincing, nor do I think they could theoretically be convincing. This is a dilemma I've often seen before, in e.g. Stratego mafia and Battle Mage's bastard mafia where Mastin was a vig.

I totally disagree on your SK playbook- fakeclaiming vig is one of the most common things to do as SK (seeing as the odds are stacked against you anyway you need to do wacky things like that). Additionally playing like a vig, if you are in fact an SK, was your choice. The mod couldn't have predicted that; so if it happens to make the game more difficult for you it's not an inherent flaw in the setup which the mod could have foreseen.

As mafia before I have deliberately tried to set myself up for a vig fakeclaim (fantasy mafia- it didn't work), I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's tried it before (basically consists of killing "scummy" targets and/or killing targets you have openly called out in the thread, just like a vig would).

If I am scum and realize how stupid I was, I still need to figure out a way to kill off one of the others in my neighborhood in order to have control over the protect.

I don't understand why control over the protect would be a primary concern for you (I'm not disputing the "I'm not mafia" conclusion of this whole section, I basically agree that you *cannot* be mafia).

I find it interesting that the mod would put an SK/vig in the doctor neighbourhood. Bulletproof town vig in a doctor neighbourhood with a confirmed mason would be an...interesting choice by the mod.

Only by a sliver do I have a chance for directing the path of this town.

I have not seen you direct the town beyond asking to be sent watcher results and insisting on your innocence. I thought your "99% prove I'm not SK" was gonna have a plan whereby we could somehow increase our perceived likelihood you are town, rather than just being arguments (whose validity I totally disagree with) for why you are town.

I also think waiting till we have 4 players then lynching ecto is a *very, very, very, very* horrible idea. Frankly I would like to lynch him today, unless there is a better course of action on the table?

[ortolan]

this is my say

Vote: Ectomancer

[ortolan]

Ort, you get/do anything?

no

[ortolan]

you're loving this broken setup hey

[ortolan]

well played Ecto, you would definitely be town MVP. I'm not bitter at the town at all and yes I did feel we were pretty unlucky. Was still an enjoyable game though despite my frustration (which was partly cause I was semi-responsible for us screwing up twice in the game with night actions, the first was really bad timing and the second was laziness).