Kingdom Hearts Mafia - Game Over!

[Kdub]

Vote: Kise

He's been scum both times I've played with him. Obvious correlation.

[Kdub]

DisCode:
Do you know the details of what is going on with Mod Scene 1, or only that you are connected to it somehow?

Hayker:
I don't see DisCode's post as rolefishing. How is he trying to find out others' roles just by telling them to think about it?

[Kdub]

DisCode:
I had read the whole game once straight through up to that point (128).

Also, I agree with this:

A. You are a townie who used an action causing this to happen, after which you turned into a miller. Hmm, that seems like a very dumb move, wouldn't ya say?

This needs explaining. What was your motivation for using whatever action you took at that point?

Unvote

[Kdub]

Vote: DisCode

Still waiting to hear answers from you. Specifically, if you are indeed town, what motivation would you have for turning yourself into a miller? Either you are hiding something and your ability did something else, or you are lying.

Also, the case on RayFrost is pretty weak. The focus right now should be on DisCode and his actions, and RF has been one of the people trying to push him for answers.

[Kdub]

That comment by DeathNote doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I played an AitP game with him where he was town and was actually modkilled for joking about giving away role information.

DisCode needs to get here and start answering questions. I'm pretty happy with my vote until he does so.

[Kdub]

That comment by DeathNote doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I played an AitP game with him where he was town and was actually modkilled for joking about giving away role information.

It's mind-shatteringly awful. Among the many probings if the voice we've had, pointing out a possible identity for it is the one that is most detrimental to town and helpful to scum. It's horrible all around and I can think of no protown motivation to do it.

It's definitely not pro-town, but I was just pointing out that it wouldn't be unprecedented behavior for him.

[Kdub]

Let me ask you something though. If you think he's lying about millering himself and was doing something bad, why do you think he would admit he was the cause of it? This is one of the big reasons I'm inclined to believe him, if not given a good reason to be skeptical of it. In fact, also explain why you don't at all trust his claim, when you clearly have an understanding how it could be possible for him to be telling the truth.

I know this was not directed at me, but since I want answers from DisCode as well, I can chime in. If he is scum, then the obvious reason he would claim miller is to avoid being investigated. Maybe his ability actually did something different and he lied about turning himself into a miller, but the motivation for the miller claim is still there. If he is town, then I see no good reason why he would decide to turn himself into a miller and announce it just for the sake of information, which is basically what he claimed his motivation was.

[Kdub]

I personally just don't find the DoS case as compelling as zwets.

What exactly is the case on zwet aside from his typical play? Are people just looking for a policy lynch by default?

[Kdub]

This game is moving fast, but I think I'm caught up. Here are thoughts on various wagons and recent developments:

I am keeping my vote on DisCode until he explains his early gameplay, or until he is replaced and his replacement is able to do so. I don't see any reason to take pressure off him just because he hasn't posted.

I'm not really liking the zwet wagon. Reckoner, I don't really agree that he is playing the same way he was as scum in Empire at War. He was much more active in pushing wagons on town, whereas here he is not really doing anything. Maybe others have different opinions of his scum meta, but based on that one game I've played with him where he was scum, I think he played different from what he is doing in this game.

I kinda liked where Iecerint was going with his case on Cobalt, though maybe he can't push it as much anymore. It seemed like Iec pointed out an inconsistency in his reasoning, and Cobalt didn't really have a good response other than something along the lines of "I didn't think it was worth correcting". I'll put down an

FoS: Cobalt

, but I'm sticking with my vote on DisCode for now.

[Kdub]

Mod: The latest vote count is incorrect, I am currently voting for DisCode.

[Kdub]

Is DisCode being replaced yet? It bothers me that he could do what he did and get ignored just by disappearing from the game.

Still disagree with Reckoner about zwet's play in EoW, but he's not helping himself much here by not defending himself.

[Kdub]

@Kdub: Do you think the fact that Empire at War was a mini and this is a large has anything to do with his playstyle?

I'm not certain. I imagine it has some effect, but having never played with him in a game this size, I don't know how his play might be different. I still contend that he was far more proactive, even on D1, in EoW than he has been here. Right now, the zwet wagon seems like an easy diversion from people who have actually done suspicious things in this game.

[Kdub]

Give me names.

DisCode specifically.

[Kdub]

Welcome to the game DG. Since you replaced DisCode, who did not answer for his early-game actions, can you explain why he decided to turn himself into a miller? I'm not asking for a full claim, I just want to know what his motivation could have been for doing that if you are town.

[Kdub]

Sorry for my lack of posts lately, I will catch up and post thoughts this weekend.

[Kdub]

OK I'm caught up. I should be able to keep up with the game better from now on since things are slowing down with the holidays coming up.

DGB:
I'm still not comfortable with the miller thing. I realize you can't really know what DisCode was thinking (or maybe you do and are hiding it), but I have a hard time buying that any reasonable pro-town player would turn himself into a miller and announce it just for the sake of information or because he was bored. Something doesn't add up, and I feel pretty sure that you are not being completely open about it. I can think of a few oddball scenarios where you/DisCode are town and would lie about it, but I won't speculate on those. I also dislike your pushing of the idea that if zwet was scum, his buddies were bussing him, but now that he flipped town, the people against the wagon are scum. I just see you pointing at posts saying "this looks like bussing/distancing" with no real explanation.

Reckoner:
Not liking your claimed "certainty" that zwet was scum. I already explained why I thought his scum play in EoW was different than his play here, and I don't think you ever really gave an adequate response. I pointed out that he was more active in pushing town lynches (yes, even on D1), and I believe you responded with something about the size of this game relative to that one. Either way, it did not really address my opinion of his play being different, and I definitely didn't get the sense from you that you could somehow be "certain" about zwet as scum.

Other stuff:
Iec's daykill was clearly a pro-town move for reasons that have already been explained. People who thought otherwise either need to think through it again or are scum trying to make it look bad. Particularly SirPent, who also jumped on the zwet wagon despite not commenting on zwet at all prior to that point in the game.

MafiaSSK has about as much content as zwet did, yet he is being completely ignored. Why? DeathNote doesn't have much more either. Let's hear more from them.

Didn't think much of the Hayker case, but he's all over the place the past couple pages. Not sure of my read on him yet, but he's got my attention.

Vote: DrippingGoofball

for now. I could also go for a Reckoner or SirPent lynch.

[Kdub]

There is no hint in my role PM regarding miller-hood. I'm told that I can relinquish being mere vanilla, and unleash darkness and light. The darkness is being a miller, and the light is a power, which is a pretty lame one especially considering the millerness that came with it.

This is what you/DisCode should have said in the first place. OK, so your "ability" had some other purpose, that seems like an acceptable explanation. The rest of my feelings toward you still apply though, so you aren't cleared just yet.

Unvote
Vote: Reckoner

Interested to hear what you think you have on me.

[Kdub]

DoS didn't really catch my attention during my read-through of the past 10 pages or so, but looking at Sir Chris's case and reading DoS in iso, I am fine with pressure on him. I am not familiar with the meta on him, so I do not have an opinion on that, but I agree with Sir Chris's assessment of his early play.

SirPent looks like he's just jumping on the most popular wagons whenever a new one gets going and not giving opinions on anyone.

[Kdub]

I'd be in favor of a SirPent lynch for wagon-hopping and not doing much else. I'll try to dig up some zwet quotes from EoW later on to show that he played differently as scum in that game and that Reckoner is either lying about his opinion on zwet or has selective memory. I wouldn't mind a DGB or DoS lynch either, but my top two are Reck and SirPent.

[Kdub]

@Kdub: Is that all you can go on in this game? My opinion on zwet based on meta from another game I played with him? After all the content that has been posted, you're still hung up on that?

It's a pretty major point that you seem to be trying to avoid rather than addressing it directly. You earlier claimed to be "60%" certain that zwet was scum (quite significant given that a random player is probably only 20-25% to be scum) based on his EoW meta, and my opinion is that an objective observer who read through that game and this game would conclude that his play was different. Anyway, I'll post some quotes later for people to evaluate for themselves, but how about you post some evidence that made you so certain about zwet?

[Kdub]

I used meta as an excuse to lynch him because I was sure that

no self-respecting town player would play in such poor fashion

.

Have you ever played with zwet when he was town?

[Kdub]

Fine, if you are admitting that you were not being honest about the zwet-meta thing, that settles my point about your earlier posts. It's still scummy though. I'm keeping my vote for now.

I'm still suspicious of the SirPent/Maemuki player slot, but I will wait until Maemuki posts more to decide on her.

[Kdub]

I decided to check out Reckoner's claim that he had never played with town-zwet:

No, I have not. Not besides this game. I think.

This game suggests otherwise: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... c&&start=0

Selective memory Reck? In fact, looking through his posts that game, he advocates a zwet lynch (zwet was town and Reck was 3rd party) and says stuff like this (bolded is mine):

Because zwet is pretty much scummy no matter if he's town or scum.

I played with him as scum before, and people being afraid to lynch zwet because of his meta is what cost the town that game.

Yet in this game, he says:

I used meta as an excuse to lynch him because

I was sure that no self-respecting town player would play in such poor fashion.

This quote implies that he does not know about zwet's town meta, yet he seemed to be pretty well aware of it in Legacy of the Ancients. So he's admitted to lying about his original reason for going after zwet and it now appears he is lying about his new reason as well. Let's get more votes on Reckoner please.

[Kdub]

And, no, that quote implies that REGARDLESS OF ZWET'S META, his play warranted a lynch.

That's pretty interesting, considering that zwet hadn't even posted in the game when you made that statement I quoted.

[Kdub]

So let's get this straight:

You basically wanted to policy lynch zwet because you thought he was a WIFOM liability to the town, regardless of his alignment. Yet for some reason, you lied about meta on him from EoW as an excuse to get on his wagon instead of just giving your actual reason. At the time, you claimed to be "60%" sure he is scum, which I have to assume was false as well since you didn't actually have good scum-meta reasons for lynching him. Then, when you finally admit that you used the meta as an excuse, you say:

I wasn't 60% based on his meta, and I'm not basing his meta solely off of that game. I was 60% on zwet because

he did not do ANY scumhunting here, he did not ATTEMPT to respond to posts

, and regardless of meta, that can't be tolerated. I used meta as an excuse to lynch him because

I was sure that no self-respecting town player would play in such poor fashion

.

I've been quoting that line of yours a lot because I feel it is particularly telling. Look especially at the parts I have bolded. When I read that, I see a pretty clear implication that you are saying that zwet, by not making any attempt to scumhunt or respond to posts, cannot be town because town players would not play that poorly. If I am alone in this interpretation, then I invite other players to chime in and tell me that I'm wrong here. The problem is,

zwet's town meta suggests that he does play in an anti-town manner

, which you would have to not be aware of in order for my interpretation of your above quote to be an accurate representation of your thoughts. If so, then explain these quotes:

Also: LotA was the first game I had played with zwet after Empire at War, and it only further confirmed my belief that

zwet needs to be lynched D1 all the time unless a huge playstyle shift occurs.

And the first quote was coming right out of Empire at War, where I decided that even though zwet's meta helped us win as scum (with the additional help of my gambit),

as town, I'd never ever ever want zwet alive past D1. He's a WIFOM liability.

Aside from the fact that you suddenly remember much of zwet's play from a game you just claimed to have forgotten you were in with him, it's pretty clear that you are well aware of zwet's overall meta, and this is inconsistent with your reasoning for wanting him to be lynched in this game.

[Kdub]

YES, I FORGOT ABOUT LOTA BECAUSE I GOT LYNCHED D0. HOLY FUCK. WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

If you forgot about it, why did you say in 1402 that LotA confirmed to you that zwet should be policy lynched? According to you, you don't remember it because you died so early, yet you remember enough of zwet's play from that game to convince you that he needs to be lynched D1. Also, you were 3rd party in LotA, not town as you said.

This Game: I am town, zwet is in the game, I pursue a lynch on him through surreptitious means because I think playing with zwet means instant town liability.

Why did you try to lynch him through "surreptitious means" rather than just coming out and giving your actual reasons?

When you said you were 60% sure zwet was scum, were you being truthful, or was that also made up to get him policy lynched?

I'm sensing some inconsistencies in your motivations here, so please answer these questions.

Papa Zito:
There may not have been anything to suggest zwet was town in this game (nor am I claiming there was), but given his general playstyle, I don't think there was anything to suggest he was more likely than random to be scum either. I think the best way for towns to deal with zwet is to either vig him or investigate him at some point.

@everyone:
Read my first quote of Reckoner in post 1408 and tell me how you interpret that.

[Kdub]

Kdub, I want your thoughts on Cobalt. NOW.

I haven't felt particularly comfortable with him ever since his earlier argument with Iecerint, and you are right that he hasn't posted much content (though he would hardly be alone in this regard). The reason why I focused on you for the zwet thing is because you brought up a specific game (EaW) that I was in, and used that as evidence against zwet. My knowledge of that game told me that your opinion on zwet was not well-founded, and you have since admitted that you lied about that reasoning anyway. Cobalt may very well be scum regardless of your alignment and is worth looking into, but I do not have any specific knowledge on his zwet opinion since I have never played with them both before.

And let's not try to make my case on you all about the EaW meta. That was what initially caught my attention, but it was your response to that, particularly your backtracking on your reasoning for voting him in this game, that makes you scummy. When I questioned you about the EaW meta, you admitted that you just made that up as an excuse and you just wanted zwet to be policy lynched. You later claimed that asking for a zwet policy lynch directly would not have been a good way to go about it, despite the fact that there were other players who were pretty much directly advocating exactly that. In fact, reading over your posts again, you talk about a zwet policy lynch yourself in post 500. So why the need to lie about the meta? Doesn't add up.

Regarding your scum list, I do not recall you mentioning anything about ace. Can you recap your opinion on him?

[Kdub]

I was wrong.

xRECKONERx is town.

Based on what?

[Kdub]

Reckoner, I asked you earlier why ace was on your scum list because I don't recall you making a case against him. Can you elaborate?

I'm a bit puzzled at the sudden lack of interest in Reckoner. If people disagree about the zwet scum-meta thing, that's fine, but his admission that he made up reasons to push a zwet lynch when there was no need to is just not something I can understand a town player doing.

If there is no interest in a Reckoner lynch, I am OK with a DoS lynch given his lack of defense against Sir Chris's case. I'm not sure about Hayker yet, I'll have to take a closer look at him.

[Kdub]

DTM's claim is believable, and unless there is a counterclaim, I think he's basically confirmed town.

Reckoner: What are your opinions on Cobalt, joe, and myself since you had us on your scum list yesterday but not at the start of today?

[Kdub]

Hey KDub while you are around could you be so kind as to give a cursory look over my posts today and tell me what you think of them? That'd be fantastic.

I agree with your read on RF, he's seemed fairly town to me. I think the Cobalt-Reckoner interaction from D1 is something we should look into more because both of them are suspicious, yet Reckoner went after Cobalt quite a bit. Could be a convincing attempt at bussing, or they could be on different scum factions. I'd like to hear Reck's answer to my previous question about his opinion on Cobalt and others.

Cobalt:
Who are your top suspects at the moment and why?

I glanced over Hayker's posts, and I'm not seeing a strong case. His posts are erratic, but I don't find them to be particularly suspicious. Can the players voting him show some quotes where you think he is scummy?

Kise, joe, MafiaSSK, and DeathNote are huge lurkers in this game.

Mod: prod DeathNote

Did you forget about the mass prod at the beginning of the day? ~Slicey~

[Kdub]

DeathNote:
Do you have a post restriction?

[Kdub]

I've got a bad feeling about the Reckoner-Cobalt interaction from yesterday and Cobalt's focus on just lurkers rather than scummy players. I think at least one of them is likely to be scum. The SSK "slip" seems almost like it was a joke post or something. I'd actually rather lynch Cobalt rather than SSK to see what's going on there. I'll switch to SSK if nobody else agrees.

Vote: Cobalt

[Kdub]

Cobalt: Name and flavor claim please. If you have other abilities, you can keep those to yourself for now.

[Kdub]

Kdub: I already iterated that I believe there to be other claim-based abilities in the game, so I'll just say that I'm from Disney Castle.

I asked for a name claim because I got some info on you last night, and that info tells me that you are lying.

I will claim if the rest of the town asks me to, but otherwise we should kill Cobalt now. Him flipping scum doesn't necessarily clear SSK.

[Kdub]

There is no character from Disney Castle that matches with the info I got on you. That is all I will say for now.

[Kdub]

I'm King Mickey. I was given a pistol with a single shot by Yen Sid to help defend the light. I'm in search of a key.

Mickey Mouse with a

gun

? That has to be one of the most ridiculous fake claims you could have come up with.

Anyway, it didn't really matter what character you claimed at this point, you are lying. Like I said, I will only claim if the rest of the town asks me to.

[Kdub]

Kise:
Perhaps it is premature, but if MafiaSSK is scum, I did not want Cobalt to get credit and have my info on him to later be disbelieved because of it. I will explain if necessary, but first I want to get some more info from Cobalt.

Cobalt:
I want the details of your ability with flavor please. We may very well end up killing MSSK as well, but you could both easily be scum.

Also, explain this statement:

I have strong flavor-based reasons to believe there are other abilities that function based on claims, so I won't fullclaim and I advise nobody else to do so unless at L-1 with someone willing to hammer.

[Kdub]

If you had used your ability on someone telling the truth, and you had killed them, would that have ended the day?

[Kdub]

Then why didn't you use your ability on DoS yesterday after he claimed? Wouldn't using that ability on a claimed vanilla be the safest option, as well as giving the town another lynch?

[Kdub]

If you didn't think scum would claim vanilla, are you saying you thought zwet and DoS were telling the truth after they claimed? This post suggests otherwise.

[Kdub]

Actually, after thinking about it a bit more, I think Iecerint vigging MSSK first might be a better idea. Cobalt seems pretty adamant that he is scum, and I suspect he may be right. The thing is, if MSSK flips scum, we are still lynching Cobalt today. I may just have to explain a bit more if that is the case. If MSSK is town, then we lynch Cobalt, no questions asked.

[Kdub]

@Kdub

You are withholding information that everything, minus the gun, fits with

King Mickey's flavour

. Why?

The flavor of Mickey with the gun is humorous, but it's irrelevant. I knew Cobalt was lying as soon as he said he was from Disney Castle. It didn't matter what character or flavor he claimed after that.

You are also fricking ignoring the scummiest part of Cobalt's claim: SSK was shot. AKA

COBALT SHOT SSK and FAKE CLAIMED LIE DETECTOR. THAT MEANS SSK IS KILL IMMUNE

That is a fair point and one I had not considered. My original theory was that Cobalt was telling the truth about his ability (lying about Mickey of course), and caught SSK, but the two of them being on different scum teams. The idea of him having a daykill and SSK being immune makes sense though. The order in which we kill them probably isn't that crucial, as long as we kill them today.

[Kdub]

Anyway I promote kdub revealing his supposed information.

It'll help regardless, eh?

Let the rest of the town weigh in on this, but I would prefer to keep it hidden for now.

Cobalt:
There is no defense you could come up with anyway aside from "you're lying". The info I have is mutually exclusive with your claim of King Mickey. For all intents and purposes today, you can assume my info is the equivalent of "you are not King Mickey".

raider:
If MSSK is scum, we still lynch Cobalt because he is lying about his claim. I suspect they may be on different scum teams.

[Kdub]

http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Disney_Castle

We should kill Cobalt first because, as DTM pointed out, there is the possibility that SSK is kill immune.

[Kdub]

Vote: MafiaSSK

Hey Cobalt, it's not all bad, maybe you can get nominated for a Scummy for funniest claim .

[Kdub]

With all the stuff going on with Cobalt's, I neglected to comment earlier that Mulan as a vig is also a pretty dubious claim.

[Kdub]

Iecerint, now that you are out of shots, would you mind giving a full claim with flavor? I was a bit suspicious that you were able to shoot twice given that the flavor of Jack Sparrow would seem to suggest only one shot, but I didn't think much of it since you were using your ability in a pro-town manner.

Based on yesterday's interactions, I think raider's play is pretty questionable. He seemed to really want MSSK to die first and suggested that Cobalt should be re-evaluated after that. I don't think raider is a heartless because there wouldn't be any benefit to him protecting Cobalt, but he could certainly be a nobody.

Death Note has been pretty useless and claimed for no reason, so I am OK with pressure on him as well.

Vote: raider

[Kdub]

Yup, mainly cause I thought MafiaSSK was scum more then Cobalt. I dont see a problem with it and the other way would have worked out just fine.

That's not what I see when I read your posts yesterday. Papa Zito already posted some quotes where you clearly were pushing for MafiaSSK's death before Cobalt's.

lol.... your ok with voting for me to pressure me? That makes no sense. I already claimed so what is reason behind pressuring?

I meant pressure to talk and give opinions/reasoning, which you haven't done much of so far.

Iecerint, how do you feel about a full claim with flavor? I think you are probably town based on your actions, but the Jack Sparrow with 2 shots thing has been bugging me.

[Kdub]

I won't vote until Papa Zito gets a chance to claim. No need to rush this.

Ray, do you know specifically that Zito is scum (on the nobody scum team), or just that he is a nobody (that is, his character is a nobody)? You don't have to answer if you think it will reveal too much, but it would be good to clear up how certain your result is.

Iec, thanks for providing flavor, though I guess it doesn't really address my main concern. The flavor of Jack Sparrow would almost certainly seem to imply a one-shot vig based on the plot of PotC, not a two-shot vig. To be fair, you have used your abilities in a pro-town manner, but it's something to keep in mind.

[Kdub]

Kdub:

He's a nobody helping the nobodies do their good-for-nobody work as nobodies.

That clear it up?

If I'm interpreting this correctly, then yes it does.

Still going to wait for a claim. If somehow, Zito is town, he should be given a chance to claim and reveal any information he has. I don't think that it will prevent him from being lynched, but there's no harm in waiting.

[Kdub]

Unvote
Vote: Papa Zito

You should have claimed immediately after Ray revealed his result on you. If you were just waiting for L-1 for some reason, this is it. Full claim with flavor now, and we can evaluate it and determine whether Ray should claim or not.

[Kdub]

Go town!

[Kdub]

Great game guys. Thanks for modding Slicey, this was an excellent setup with a solid playerlist.

DGB and Sajin were MVPs of the town for sure. We probably would have lost without either of them.

I'm nominating Cobalt for a funniest claim Scummy award. I acted serious about it at the time because I had already investigated him and knew he was scum so I wanted to get him lynched, but that was some funny stuff.