Kingdom Hearts Mafia - Game Over!

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I'll be replacing Malthusis. I've just finished reading through the thread. Since there's been a lot of material, I wrote down my intuitions about players' alignments; it is reproduced below. Because I hate wallposts, I will only elaborate on specific players' past play if asked. Some tier placements may be difficult to elaborate upon as they were based on intuitions from page 7 or whenever.

(Ordinarily, I do not like or support making townlists, but I think it's only fair in this instance because you have such little information about this slot.)

All lists are roughly chronological, but I started out by only making a scumlist, so the townlist is not as perfectly chronological as the other. I do not have a read on players not listed.

Town Tier

Vaya
Saber

Gorrad

Gorrad
Hayker

Plum

Reckoner

RF

RF
Sir Chris
ModVoice

Scum Tier

zwet
Cobalt

Papa Zito

DTM

DeathNote

foilist

Kise
Shotty
WFH
Discode

Wall Post Tier

DTM

SirChris

raider

Avatarless Tier

SirChris

While I think zwet may be scum, I am wary of D1 zwet lynches. There are certainly worse mislynches, and it may not even be a mislynch, but it's a too-easy lynch regardless.

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Crossed out names indicate that I believed a player should be placed in that group at some point during my read, but that I changed my mind as I encountered new information. Some players regained membership on a list again after I had already added and removed them.

The last 2 tiers are mostly tongue-in-cheek; I've indicated certain players who seemed more concerned with producing "INFORMATION" than being productive. That kind of play is difficult to tolerate during a 23-page reread, so I made that list to indicate my frustration. SirChris was removed because his recent posts have been an major improvement IMO. He still needs an avatar, though.

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I think that producing INFORMATION as such can be a viable scum tactic, but players in that group on my list are not necessarily scummy unless they are also in another group. For example, DTM was briefly in both the Scum and Wallpost groups and SirChris was briefly in both the Town and Wallpost groups. Membership in WP mostly only indicates playstyle. It was half a joke and half a self-reminder that negative feelings about those players may be colored by problems with their playstyle.

Raider is more guilty of it than DTM. I vaguely recall that DTM made less absurd posts as the game went on.

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To clarify, Raider does it to such a degree that it begins to look scummy.

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I noticed that the thread existed, read Slicey in iso to get an idea of the flavor, joined the replacements list, was told by Slicey I would replace mal, read mal in isolation (lol), received my role PM, and then read through the game making the list. All this happened today.

So I had read Slicey and mal before I got my role PM, but not much else. (ModVoice seemed utterly bizarre.) I didn't make the list at all until I had my PM.

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Neither do I, but I figured it couldn't hurt.

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EBWOP: Actually, I just thought of something. Vaya, please indicate why you asked that question.

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I think people tend to read from a town perspective. I don't understand how a pre-PM list wouldn't be credible. If anything, I think a pre-PM list would be more credible.

I asked Vaya about his reasons because I was wondering whether he was trying to read something more into the crossed-out players. I suppose not.

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I was on the verge of taking Shotty off the scum when I hit page 23. Reading him in iso, nothing negative really stands out. I got a negative feeling in my stomach somewhere, but maybe I just wasn't crazy about his avatar. <_<

Reading Hayker in iso now, he should probably be off the town list. It looks like his only significant posts have been the huge (but very entertaining!) IIOA on the KH flavor and a couple of posts discrediting ModVoice. I guess I just enjoyed reading his flavorposts.

Cobalt definitely rubs me the wrong way, though. His early play was aimless, and then he responded to pressure to contribute by pressure-voting my predecessor, another lurker. Then he voted ace without explanation. When that didn't catch on, he voted zwet, yet another lurker. Then he switched to voting Deathnote, then back to zwets, which had become somewhat popular on the back of testimony from other players. His play all game has involved moving from target to target without significant explanation until he found a cause that other players would champion for him. It doesn't help that I know he's played with DeathNote at least once, but he feigned ignorance of his meta.

I feel naked not having a vote somewhere, so I'll go ahead and

Vote: Cobalt

on this basis. I'm not certain whether he's my favorite candidate, but it's certainly enough to keep myself from being a non-voter.

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Players who were removed and never added back can be considered players I don't have a strong read on. It doesn't mean that they belong to the opposite group. For example, I thought Plum was probably town early on, but I became less sure as I read, so I removed her from my town list. This demoted her to "ambiguous."

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EBWOP: It looks like my predecessor was voting SSK.

Unvote; Vote: Cobalt

.

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Oh, I see what you mean. OK.

I forgot something else, too.

I'll help you.

@ ModVoice.

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This is what I'm referring to. These first posts are iso back-to-back:

I have a cool idea. Let's lynch DeathNote.

vote deathnote

Look at DN. Aside from the fact that his posts are nearly all fluff, this bit

my character is so basic.... oops. Hope I didn't give anything away.

is absolutely awful, and he also told the modvoice to stop talking. die scum die

So... sajin is the voice?

STOP BEING SO SCUMMY

That comment by DeathNote doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I played an AitP game with him where he was town and was actually modkilled for joking about giving away role information.

It's mind-shatteringly awful. Among the many probings of the voice we've had, pointing out a possible identity for it is the one that is most detrimental to town and helpful to scum. It's horrible all around and I can think of no protown motivation to do it.

Then players start explaining that the "mind-shatteringly awful" aspects of DN's play aren't a reliable scumtell for him. Cobalt shifts his approach:

Plum, here's the problem I have with your view of DN: he has an extremely antitown playstyle, so scum will never kill him. But his meta means he won't get lynched for playing scummy, either. So he gets a free pass.

Since Cobalt really knew that his problems with DN play were quite null all along, this looked disingenuous to me. A more honest approach would have been pointing out that DN was an anti-town player and therefore deserving of a policy lynch (i.e. not dissimilar to what a lot of players are doing to zwet, though some of them claim he's on the scummy side of his meta this game).

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Your posts don't just point out his scummy things; they do so while ignoring his meta. You don't even correct other players' inference that you do not understand said meta. Even if you're town and mean the best or whatever, I think your methods were a little deceitful.

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It looks like I may have made a mistake on this note. Based on that last quoted Cobalt quote I listed, I remembered this Plum bit as directed at Cobalt:

Deathnote and Zwet would both be acceptable lynches in my eyes, but frankly DisCode is so blatantly scum! For Zwet, at least, his behavior is normally this scummy. Can't really say about DN, haven't played with him enough to know.

DeathNote has been known to act extremely anti-Town, get told that, continue to do so and get practically speed-lynched on Day 1 as VT; he's a liability but the anti-Townness is a nulltell (towntell?) for him.

But it looks like it was directed at Gorrad. It's still true that Kdub educated you on DH's playstyle without you correcting him, though:

That comment by DeathNote doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I played an AitP game with him where he was town and was actually modkilled for joking about giving away role information.

It's mind-shatteringly awful. Among the many probings if the voice we've had, pointing out a possible identity for it is the one that is most detrimental to town and helpful to scum. It's horrible all around and I can think of no protown motivation to do it.

It's definitely not pro-town, but I was just pointing out that it wouldn't be unprecedented behavior for him.

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I don't think the fact that anyone could have called out your behavior excuses that it is questionable behavior. I also think it would take an unusual kind of player to meta you for something like that. I only know because I was there when you played with DN.

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Real cute, Cobalt.

Give him votes, please. Secret scumtell.

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If Slicey decides that indicating that I "was there" when you played with DN constitutes a violation of the spirit of the rule, that's fine. I could see no other way to address your point. That level of allusion (I was deliberately very vague) is well within the spirit of the rule IMO.

Regardless of that, there is literally no reason for you to have posted that as town. Justify your play or claim in your next post.

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Reckoner, do you think that Cobalt is town, or do you just think it's odd that Shotty voted Cobalt with me? Did you miss Cobalt's recent post? If so, does it change your perspective?

The secret scumtell should be pretty self-evident by this point.

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I find it a little odd that Cobalt can pull what he did on page 24 and be anything other than obvscum unless he can provide a very good reason.

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Gorrad, why do you think saberwolf is scum? Reading you in iso, the only time you mentioned he might be scum was when you mocked him for voting zwet.

Also, I maintain my request for Cobalt votes. zwet is a minimally painful mislynch, but I would be shocked if Cobalt were town.

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The Mod has indicated that this is an acceptable post:

The now-obvious "secret scumtell" was Cobalt's deliberate and unsubtle attempt to get me modkilled.

Discode is a decent alternate wagon. I agree that his claim was very odd. I have an idea of why he may have done what he did, but I'm less sure of how the outcome affected his alignment.

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I think anyone can read our exchange on the previous page and see that that was probably not the case. I think you were hoping that I would discuss the game and be modkilled whereupon you could claim innocence due to having forgotten about said game. You abandoned this strategy when it was clear that I saw what you were trying to do.

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I cannot, except with extreme suspension of disbelief, accept that those were your true intentions. I think you would have "warned" me in a manner slightly less likely to result in a modkill had that been your true intent. You also wouldn't have brought it up again this page.

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Your "warning" was less a warning than a modkill request. There was also an intermediate post reading "lol" between your question and your "warning." The notion that you hadn't picked up on the secret tell by this page is very hard for me to believe.

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People who continue to vote zwet in the face of this absurdity should probably weigh in on this discussion:

A. Cobalt is a nice man. He warns people!
B. Cobalt is a sneaky man. He modkills people! But, he is not as scummy as lurkingzwet.
C. Cobalt is a sneaky man. He modkills people! But, he's more fun to play with than lurkingzwet.

I am sympathetic to people in category C.

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It is certainly true that there were better ways for you to have played this one out. That doesn't mean that your behavior looks town in the slightest.

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It doesn't mean that your behavior looks town because announcing "O MAI THAT WAS MODKILLABLE PERHAPS LOL" is not typical town behavior, regardless of whether or not it is ideal scum behavior.

Anyway, I actually just have to assume that it was scum-motivated. The rest is WIFOM. I would have found it very impressive if you had pulled it off, so I don't consider it particularly dishonorable or subpar.

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Cobalt, I only "mentioned" that game because you (dishonestly, as I interpret it) implied that I knew you were inconsistent due to my checking your meta. To clear up your lie/amnesia (as the case may be), I did what I did in as legitimate a fashion as I could. (I should note that the inconsistency is frankly scummy regardless of whether or not you had amnesia, since you did indicate that you knew DN's playstyle -- which is a point against the amnesia side of things.)

It is possible that Cobalt has a VERY short-term memory (to explain his extreme and selective amnesia) and a VERY scummy way of playing (to explain his "warning" post), but it is hard for me to believe that he is town. I certainly do not see another wagon on a comparably scummy player. However, I don't think that there is anything more to say about the issues (i.e. that his treatment of DN was inconsistent and that his conversation with me was ill-intentional). My vote stays where it is. I would be happy to answer questions about my case if something is unclear and it is within my power.

IGMEOY @ people on the easy lurkerzwetwagon, though I can certainly empathize with wanting to lynch zwet.

raider, have you missed players' concerns with your play? (Maybe he hasn't gotten there yet...?) Please summarize your play in a fashion that is reasonable to peruse.

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If you have a more productive conversation topic, I strongly encourage you to produce it. Yell at raider with me if ye want. Maybe he'll notice when we're on D2.

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Your amnesia is extreme because it concerns recent events. It is selective because you claimed to understand DN's meta when you made those early posts. The point is that your amnesia was probably feigned. Feigning amnesia is scummy.

Pointing out that my scumtell was secret was a reflection of the fact that I did not want to break the rules. I was and remain confident in its validity.

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I've lynched the zwet I see in this game twice (Lazy Neighborhood, tajo's I Love You), and he was town both times. I also replaced into a game where he was nearly lynched D1 (Twilight), and he was town again. I've read through games where zwet was scum, but I honestly can never tell much of a difference.

That said, I agree with Plum. If people honestly think there's a difference, that's one thing. Please make the difference as clear as possible. (Reckoner comes closest, but from what I can tell this is different from her scumzwetmeta, too, so I'm not sure that convinces me.)

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raider, why is DoS scummy for encouraging players to tunnel whereas I am not (at least not so far as you've described)? I could be fairly criticized as tunneling on Cobalt all game, but I didn't get scumpick in your post. To the extent that DoS is scummy for that, it seems that I would be, too. I'm not disputing that DoS may be scummy; I'm just trying to iron out an apparent inconsistency.

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I think that would be more likely to be a mistake than a scummy misrep, RF. If you're confident that raider did it with ill-intent, please let me know why you think that's the case.

Just a preemptive note: do not quicklynch zwet after his nigh-inevitable claim.

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Pleasepleaseplease get an avatar, Mr. Chris. I'll be your best friend.

Also, one scumtell that's sometimes circulated on this site is lurker-scumhunting, or focusing your scumhunting purely on lurkers. This is seen as scummy because it is an easy tactic for a lazy fakescumhunter to master. I'm not suggesting that you're guilty of it (at least, not any more than the zwetwagoners or Plum on fuzzylightning) or that picking at lurkers is never/rarely a good idea, but I thought it might be worth pointing out.

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Understood, raider.

I share RF's contention about your earliest play, SC. Your early posts read like you're more interested in INFORMATION than briefly presenting an argument and adding some rhetoric as necessary. (It is much better now that you have an avatar, though.) You did improve in the bit just before I replaced in IIRC (IMO).

If you think that you've noticed a good scumtell, please explain it succinctly and clearly. It may be that we are not understanding your argument because it is unclear to us. For example, I understand that DoS is an anti-town lurker, but I don't see how that differentiates him from zwet, fuzzylightning, et al.

I think RF's point about raider's discrepancy is a good point. (Granted, I made it before him about the DoS/Iec tunneling discrepancy.) Town (usually) has no motivation to treat players unequally. Scum do.

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RF, I acknowledged his post in the first line of my previous post. Since his post was explanatory in nature and I accepted his explanation, I didn't see any need to continue that discussion with him. Let me know if you think I am neglecting something specific.

SC, that is much clearer. I've just read through DoS in iso, and I think I may have a different interpretation of his play. On the one hand, I agree that he is focusing on lurkers. His votes have been for DeathNote, you (ex-lurker due to work), and zwet, which I would normally find very troubling. But the circumstances of his unvote on you read to me like he's using his votes to encouraging active play from lurkers rather than find easy targets. When you factor in that the DeathNote vote was page 1 and the zwet vote is accompanied by a (brief) discussion of his play here differing from his meta, I think this is the most parsimonious explanation.

(I should also note that I am not confident in my ability to read DoS because I was 95% certain that he was scum in Moviestar Madness, but was mistaken.)

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Unvote; Vote: zwets

. I believe this is 12 votes..

L-2

. But check me.

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Hmm. That's a decent point. I know he's been posting elsewhere on the site a bit, too.

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Moviestar Madness just finished today.

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EBWOP: I'm assuming you're referring to chronological closeness, but....

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He was actually really active in MM, it looks like. Everyone sorta was, though. : /

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Malthusis doesn't exist anymore. I am Malthusis. I agree with most of your post, except that DeathNote's meta is just as scummy as zwet's, so I think you could cross-supply your problem with the zwet wagon to the hypothetical DeathNote wagon. That's why I found Cobalt's DeathNotewagon championing suspicious, which led to all that notorious drama.

Needless to say, but why not throw the baby out with the bathwater, I find Iec's Post 697 eminently sane.

First, that quote is the same as the previous one, and post 697 wasn't mine. Which post did you mean? Second, I don't understand your tone here. Is the second sentence sardonic in light of the first? If not, what are you trying to communicate by the first?

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It's quite egregious, isn't it? The unvote for RF is fine (I think I may have had my RFswitch around the same time), but the way he phrases the DC stuff ("He claimed miller, but he isn't really a miller", "I want to know what his real role is") is very odd. I vaguely recall that another player had already mentioned his suggestion that the Riku speculation was scum handing DC a fakeclaim, so he's just taking another person's argument IIRC. That he phrases that bit as a question implies that he is introducing that point for the first time, which I find disingenuous. (Let me know if FL really did introduce that point first.) Then he says the rest of the thread isn't worth commenting on because it's too jokey. He also drops the game after that post.

There are too many scummy players in this game.

Unvote; Vote: fuzzylightning

, I suppose. <_< I'm ambivalent on zwet because I can't read him very well and his play here isn't really different from the other games I've seen him in.

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Why do you want zwet to claim at less than L-1+intent to lynch, Gorrad? Limiting claims should be a goal.

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Is zwet your lurker with a "non-lurkish meta"? If so, I think you are misunderstanding what Reckoner means when he says that his play in this game is "different."

(Also, that was your first post in 5 days.)

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My experience is that zwet rarely posts and, when he does post, he posts little-to-nothing of substance (except votes). The result is that he looks scummy and is an easy D1 mislynch for scum; moreover, he's not much fun to play with, so town is usually indifferent to his survival. It's true that keeping him around is a liability (unless scum find him annoying or he claims a PR, they're unlikely to kill him), but the blamelessness of wanting to lynch him is what makes him such a compelling scum mislynch target.

Not to say that he's not scum sometimes. And some people say they can tell the difference between scumzwet and townzwet. Reckoner claims to be one of those people. I personally can't, though.

DeathNote's meta is somewhat similar to zwet's, except that DN is openly scummy rather than lurkerscum.

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I've just realized that we need to request prods explicitly.

Please prod zwet

.

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I think someone in this game did imply that zwet usually posts a lot, so I don't think you're imagining things. I can't quite recall who it was. It made me read it twice when I was reading through, too. I convinced myself that the poster meant something else IIRC (e.g. the post said something like "This is zwet we're talking about!" so I took it to mean that there was something-else-not-activity-level about zwet's play that was off).

Cobalt, when you posted that, were you referring to ace's insinuation that zwet was usually an active player, to ace's recent lower frequency of posts, both, or something else?

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It's easy for (any) players to win +like points for telling spammers to quiet down. However, it is perhaps somewhat disingenuous when they have already stopped.

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I agree that DC's play is odd, but I think it's likely he's Riku, and I doubt that Riku is scum. Could be 3rd party, though. [/outguessing the mod]

Anyway, I'd like to see the role in more capable/active hands.

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Could we have an extension given the large number of potential replacements?

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Deadline is in 8 days.

I was basing my request on this post. If Gorrad's timing is incorrect, you're correct that I'm a little premature.

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Reckoner, how certain are you that zwet is scum?

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If you are a player who has not yet voted, unvoted, or expressed public ambivalence/indifference to the zwet wagon, please do so at your earliest convenience.

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OMGWTFAMAZING. <3

Hi.

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DGB, did you finish reading the thread? Do you have favorite scum? Also, I don't think DisCode ever joined the zwet wagon. Please make up a better scum barometer.

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DeathNote all you need to know now is that zwet is being mega-bus'ed by his buddies, and we have to kill him, then take a long hard look at all the people on his wagon so far. Before me = scumz, me and after = townz.

I interpreted this as "those who joined the wagon before me are scum while those he joined he after me are town." I thought you'd read the thread and erred somewhere. But I guess you were just joking about an 11+ member scumteam? Or did I misinterpret it?

Tags fixed. ~Slicey~

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Tag fix, please.

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DGB, I replaced malthusis. Have you finished reading the thread by now? Are any of your scumreads serious enough that you could explicate them for me? (I'm not saying they're not serious or that I find them suspect; I just don't know how much stock you've placed in them.) Have any of the arguments by other players in the game so far been particularly reasonable or bogus?

What do you think is the probability that zwet will claim if L-1'd? If it is greater than 0, how long would we have to wait to get it out of him?

No one should lynch zwet just yet. However, it's OK to L-1 him. If he's at L-1 and you want to hammer him, please type "Hammer" in bold for me.

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zwets, if you have not (fake)claimed within 48 hours, something unpleasant will happen to you.

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You want to hammer without him being at L-1 or being given the 48 hours?

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Any thoughts about the claim itself? My thoughts are that if Slicey made Kairi vanilla, that is very sexist, but you never know, etc. Please weigh-in within the next 24 hours (e.g. "claim changes nothing -- i want/do not want to lynch zwet, "I am less enthusiastic about lynching zwet now," "I am more enthusiastic about lynching zwet now").

Do not actually lynch zwet yet.

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OK. Exactly one more person may vote zwet.

ALERT Hammering zwet at this time would be extremely anti-town ALERT

If you would otherwise be OK with hammering but cannot because you do not want to be lame, please follow SirPent's lead and post "

Hammer

."

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Gimme 12 hours or so, DGB.

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SirPent puts it at 13. If more want to also "hammer," I want to give them a certain amount of time to express their feelings. I promise that I have a good reason for doing this.

Vaya, do not unvote for me. I do not want anyone to unvote zwet. Vote/express your conscience without lynching him.

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No. You may not hammer. Hammering zwet in any time or fashion is extremely anti-town until I say otherwise (i.e. until 12 hours or so). I appreciate that you have expressed eventual intent to hammer, though.

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You people are making me way too stressed out. I'll do my thing after Slicey's next post just in case that counted as the hammer. (It's not clear what ModVoice meant by his support "not being in the VC.")

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Kill: zwetschenwasser

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Slicey is officially rather sexist. Ah well. Free day, even if it's a little short. <_<

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That could be. Hadn't occurred to me, though.

Anyway, next order of business is determining what we can from the zwet wagon in the next few days. DGB and saber already did some work WIFOMing this sort of speculation into oblivion (whether deliberately or otherwise), but it's still something to work with.

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I'm not seeing what you're seeing, RF. The most recent unvote/vote is a misinterpretation of my request. There's just one before that. Am I missing something?

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I have warm feelings about Vaya, but he is also nice to me, so I may be blinded, etc.

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I have thought that Vaya was scum in literally every game I have played with him except this one, and he has always been town. I dunno if that means I've gotten used to his style, or if this time is different in a problematic way.

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I would believe anyone that claimed a common character in fact. I mean, why wouldn't they be legit [town] roles?

Mod-provided fakeclaims? Idiosyncratic scumteam choices (ala the notorious HP mafia)?

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Hadn't thought of that @ Kise. It's a decent point. Still, so long as Slicey apparently dislikes Kairi enough to make her vanilla, I don't see why he wouldn't reduce her to a scum fakeclaim.

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I don't want to claim all the details of my role, but I don't see any harm in claiming Jack Sparrow.

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I used my ability the way that I did because I think giving the town a functional free lynch is as good a use of a DK as can be hoped for. I don't want to claim my flavor or abilities because that information is not information that town needs to know, but it may help scum manufacture fakeclaims and/or determine their N1 target.

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I think Hayker would've been all over the zwet wagon if he were scum. Reckoner's claim that zwet's meta differed made it a comparatively blameless mislynch IMO. On the other hand, Hayker totally ignored the zwet lynch 100%, which is very odd.

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I used my ability the way that I did because I think giving the town a functional free lynch is as good a use of a DK as can be hoped for.

I wanted to wait 12 hours to shoot to give everyone another post or so so that we'd have more to analyze. You can consider the zwet wagon as analogous to a D1 mislynch wagon for analysis purposes. This also puts off N1, but I think increasing the number of town lynches by 1 outweighs that.

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Think of it as having the ability to grant the town an extra lynch. That's clearly an ability that helps the town, right? As such, I don't think it's a waste of a DK.

Look below the "reply" box at the bottom of the screen. Change the second box to whichever player you want to read in isolation.

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Trying to decide whether SirPent is wrong in a scummy way or in an innocuous way.

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I can get behind that. Makes more sense to me than Hayker -- not that I don't see where that wagon's coming from.

Vote: SirPent

.

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I think it was IIOA + ModVoice reaction. I thought his ignoring the zwet wagon was weird, but I just checked back and the zwet wagon hadn't really got going by the time he started lurking. So I don't think that's suspect anymore.

But someone on the wagon should probably say whether there was something else. I hope they can come up with something else, because his iso looks pretty innocuous to me given that his ignoring lurkerzwet was pre-zwetwagon.

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Good thing you were there to set us on the path to greatness.

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I hope you just mean that rhetorically....

Please explain the Hayker wagon to me. You kept asking people to read his iso, but I don't think I saw what you saw.

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Raider, please vote someone, even if it's not SerPent. You have indicated a number of players you find suspicious, but it is difficult to know how serious you are if you refrain from voting. Could be that you didn't notice that the vote reset.

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I'm normally resistant of "scum wanting to avoid townie mislynch wagon" rhetoric, but I think I may agree with DGB in this case. Avoiding the wagon would be fine if you were on one ("I like this one better!"), but you are not.

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If you really want DoS lynched, wouldn't voting for DoS be a nice first step? It's true that it may be fruitless, but it's not any more fruitless than being voteless. Correct me if I'm wrong.

/drunkpost

[Iecerint]

Hayker PbPA

(Numbers are isos)

Post 0: Random vote
Post 1: Fencesitting on voice and change (never any followthrough)
Post 2: Mod question - votecount
Post 3: Discode vote for "rolefishing"
Post 4: Votecount response
Post 5: Quotes Discode, no followthrough
Post 6: Mod scene/voice speculation/flavor speculation
Post 7: KH I synopsis (flavor)
Post 8: Chain of Memories synopsis (flavor)
Post 9: KH II synopis (flavor)
Post 10: KH II synopsis (flavor)
Post 11: Why am I scum?
Post 12: Received prod

So to review we have lots of speculation and flavor with zero scumhunting whatsoever. This is pseudo-helpful, IIoA scum folks.

There are lots of useless players this game, though. Namely, you could probably do the same with fuzzylightning, joe, and foil/SerPent, though the latter does include some by-looks-of-it-deliberately-awful "analysis."

Reckoner, please vote for someone.

[Iecerint]

'I didn't think the vig was a good shot at first because the lynch of zwet would've gotten the same result. But now that I look at how it is day 1 and two people dieing before scum get action a vig made since. '

It is true that there is evidence that SerPent has played the game before, but this is not a good example of what you're talking about.

What happened is that several players started whining about my vig kill, so SerPent joined along. Then other players came/those players changed their minds, SerPent came under scrutiny for his views and comparatively lackluster play, and adjusted his "analysis" to fit the new standard agreed upon by the site. This didn't require any thinking or analysis on his part. He just had to summarize the mainstream perspective on the subject.

So, it shows he is reading the game, but that is all. Given his play, I'm not sure whether that makes me happy with him.

[Iecerint]

DGB's behavior is very standard for her as far as I can tell. A town player and scum player both asked her a question, but she interpreted the questions differently due to the inferred context. She'll amend her list when there's evidence it needs amending.

I think you understand that, but you posted it to make yourself look like "the good guy" in this situation.

[Iecerint]

You have to make some assumptions. Otherwise, the game doesn't go anywhere. There aren't enough hard facts to play the game that way. That's what makes the game fun.

Also, I don't necessarily play the same way as DGB, but I do know that DGB plays a certain way, which was the main point of my post. Since you didn't clarify that you weren't familiar with DGB's playstyle, I'm slightly more comfortable that you pulled that to win +like points.

[Iecerint]

It doesn't excuse Hayker, but it doesn't explain why you would single-out Hayker over the other players, either. Using your barometer alone allows scum to choose whichever of the lurkers isn't scum with minimal blamelessness. My intent was to see if you could communicate why you thought Hayker was a better lynch than (for example) the other players I mentioned.

Hayker's posts this page aren't great, though. The first one almost has to be a joke or error, but he hasn't acknowledged as much. I'll reserve judgment on the others unless it becomes clear he's not going anywhere with his questions.

[Iecerint]

That is a blatant misrepresentation of my post. Ordinarily, when people find a player highly suspicious, they describe why they think so. If they can't, that is problematic. Hell, you could just say "I get a more negative feeling from Hayker than the others" if that's really all it is.

[Iecerint]

Hayker, what do you think about DoS's explanations for how his view of SirChris et al changed?

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It's probable that Discode either didn't know that whatever he did would make him a miller or that the benefits outweighed the disadvantages. If he didn't know, he probably activated some mystery ability and was then told he was a Miller. In such a circumstance, I think announcing it is a perfectly fine option; I'd probably claim D1 if I were a Miller. If he did know, claiming Miller was similarly a perfectly legitimate act, and refusing to elaborate is similarly legitimate.

It's not as if he was forced into claiming it. The flavor didn't indicate that he was responsible IIRC. I think scum and 3rd party wouldn't have bothered claiming Miller in that circumstance.

If there are isolated reasons to think that DGB is scum, that's fine, but I don't think Discode's Miller claim is a good reason to suspect her.

[Iecerint]

I hope SirChris is RPing his character with that absurd tone. I like reading his posts.

I think foil's poor play ("Great job! More flavor discussion, please, Hayker!") and SerPent's inability to make unique or compelling observations about the game coupled with evidence that he is reading said game make him a better target. DoS doesn't seem any different from the prior game I played with him (the same one DGB mentioned), so I'm less comfortable with that option atm.

[Iecerint]

Oh. Hmm. Well.

Fine. ^^

Unvote; Vote: DoS

[Iecerint]

Moviestar Madness

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Voting is pro-town. Vote your conscience. No one is near lynch. There is literally no reason not to vote someone.

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Focus better, reckoner.

Talk about this, please.

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EBWOP: You may wait until he answers you first if it would be better that way.

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Yeah, we're just all simulposting. I'll bother you about it later if I don't figure it out for myself

[Iecerint]

I think it is mainly that DGB is a celebrity. I want to please her.

I like your posts, too, though.

[Iecerint]

Reckoner, please make comments about DoS.

[Iecerint]

I have negative feelings about Reckoner (because she brought up two counterwagons when the DoS business started to take off), SerPent (for reasons prior indicated), and DoS. I probably wouldn't have felt as negative about DoS and Reckoner if he hadn't appeared to offer the quick alternawagons.

The fact that I have a negative feeling about Reckoner in spite of the Mary-Louise Parker avatar is sort of alarming to me.

I go back and forth on Hayker, raider, and you.

I thought WFH was scum most of the game, but it gave me a warm feeling when he was one of the first players to go against the then-bizarrely-widespread belief that vigging zwet was suspicious.

[Iecerint]

Yeah, I know. I used both pronouns on him. That's what he gets for using the MLP avatar.

WFH = wolframnhart

[Iecerint]

Meta ftw.

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NO MORE VOTES. It looks like he's close to the lynch.

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Are you sure? I counted 7 + already having 5. *checks*

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Oh, my mistake. I misread the Hayker wagon at the last VC as being DoS's.

Carry on. We can take a few more.

[Iecerint]

I think we're actually currently at 8, unless someone got off the DoS wagon after it got started and I missed it.

[Iecerint]

He's been pretty consistent in his case, PZ. Summarized, it's that DoS attacks lurkers, lurks himself, and posts only to defend himself. He also claims that MMtownDoS is significantly different from our DoS. (I'll grant that ours definitely isn't as active.)

[Iecerint]

He only wants to know who you think is scum. He doesn't want your town reads.

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I can't believe you didn't bring the quote where he says like "It would be foolish to lynch me. I have a powerful town role." I lol'd when he posted that in MM.

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Killing me is truly a mistake, I have a powerful town role.

Which made me giggle a lot.

Gorrad's claim that true townies are A-OK with getting lynched is foreign to me.

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Situations that clearly do not apply at present as counterexamples ftw.

I miss RF, too.

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I think Gorrad looked town until his bizarre claim about DoS's defense; even with that, though, I think Reckoner is the obvious suspect if DoS is scum.

[Iecerint]

Could someone explain to me why we're apparently impressed with DoS's post?

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If anything, I am the opposite of impressed by the premature claim.

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SirPent is relatively likely to be scum. I am interested in lynching him insignificantly less than I am interested in lynching DoS.

[Iecerint]

OK, Reckoner looks like definite scum in that post -- that, or he is not a very pragmatic player at all. As such, I am ever so slightly more comfortable with lynching DoS.

RF, I encourage you to say something about DoS ("He is naughty!" v. "He is nice!") ASAP. This goes for all the fence-sitters.

[Iecerint]

He softclaimed VT this game. The "powerful town role" quote is from the other game where he was a very very very scummy PR townie.

[Iecerint]

lol. hayker is scumlord.

So which one should I shoot? I wish the townies would play better. <_<

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I think he's cute. <3

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Does this mean we have to lynch Hayker instead? After that nice story he gave us?

Unvote; Vote: Hayker

.

[Iecerint]

I think the AtE claim is pretty valid. Mine felt pretty appealed-to.

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RF has claimed that Hayker is loltown rather than obvscum due to meta. That's good enough for me for the time being, though we've sort of heard this before innit.

Unvote; Vote: DoS

.

[Iecerint]

He already claimed the VT part pages and pages ago.

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If Cobalt is scum with DN, they've been distancing all day. Cobalt's attack on DN was the initial basis of my suspicion toward him.

[Iecerint]

People are allowed to lynch DoS whenever this time btw. I won't get mad.

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Your bold/italics comparison is mistaken. He argues that he spent a long time looking at various players, then tunneled on DoS when he was reasonably sure of his alignment.

[Iecerint]

Chainsaw defense is where scum attacks town attacking the scumbuddy.

scum -> town -> scum
ace -> chris -> DoS

[Iecerint]

Meh, I think we were all sorta assuming a Xemnas v. Maleficient scum team business. I was, at least. It's a little odd that he seems so sure about it, though.

[Iecerint]

I could see Maleficent as 3rd party without too much creativity.

[Iecerint]

Reminds me --

Prod Vaya

.

[Iecerint]

Why won't DGB or I die?

Or are you foreseeing genocide?

[Iecerint]

Uhh, I dunno what the reason is. Maybe I am dumb? The only obvious reason is that you think we're scum, which I don't think you've mentioned before (maybe about DGB, though?), but there's no reason to keep quiet about that. <_<

DGB, is the reason obvious to you?

[Iecerint]

It was a response to DoS's post.

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Reckoner is scum to infinity and beyond if DoS is scum.

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Actually, maybe he's scum even if he's town? <_<

[Iecerint]

Cobalt's play was only scummy up until trying to get me modkilled. He's been on his best behavior since then. You seem to have had the opposite impression. Why?

DoS is a good-to-great lynch because a) DoS has been an anti-town player at best and b) his wagon has led to some really colorful reactions from players that I wouldn't have otherwise anticipated. Yours (Cobalt is literally the 3rd alternawagon you have hinted at) have been the most colorful.

[Iecerint]

Cobalt is scum for supporting your logic! Well-done!

[Iecerint]

This is such a fun game. I wish I were scum.

CULT ME PLZ, HEARTLESS!

[Iecerint]

Gotta say, it could be that you're scum with him. Seems like it's way too early for him to give up like that, though.

[Iecerint]

I'd recommend we lynch Reckoner instead if we didn't already have the claim. <_<

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I'm super-neutral! x2! Neat!

Also, seriously, WHY CAN NO ONE SPELL MY NAME? I don't understand it. <_<

Well, for the entirety of Twilight Mafia, I thought your name was Icerint. It wasn't till Tajo's Mafia I realized how to actually spell your name. ~Slicey~

[Iecerint]

Huge lol after making fun of DGB for the same reason innit.

[Iecerint]

And Kdub is scum for attacking me

without saying a damn word about Cobalt.

Why is that relevant? It's not as if Cobalt is the wagon of the moment.

[Iecerint]

Ya. The only problem is that the timing is so bad you'd think scumReck'd just have let it roll by then. Not that that's enough for me to remove him from suspicion.

[Iecerint]

If I remember correctly, Cobalt kinda started the zwet wagon and then sat in the shadows while others championed it. You were probably the most vocal champion. Given your visibility, I think it's reasonable that someone would associate you most significantly with the wagon.

Not that I don't think Cobalt was responsible for the wagon in a sneaky-and-perhaps-scummy fashion.

[Iecerint]

Nah, most of your posts are unrelated (if only because of the large, large number of posts). It's true that you allude back to wanting more votes on the zwet wagon pretty consistently, but you didn't really provide much independent support for it.

[Iecerint]

That's irrelevant to the fact that I find it reasonable that a player (e.g. Kdub) would attack Reckoner rather than you on the basis of your methods (be they scum-motivated or otherwise).

[Iecerint]

You would be more credible if this were not your third alternacase since the DoS wagon started.

[Iecerint]

He has clearly indicated that it is the former.

[Iecerint]

^ What about DoS?

[Iecerint]

I could believe that if DoS is town, maybe. No way I'm believing that if DoS is scum, though.

[Iecerint]

Excepting that Reckoner posted more than one post, I agree with Gorrad.

[Iecerint]

It's kinda funny that someone said I was a "leader." If I am the town leader, we're in bad shape. <_<

I'm happy that ModVoice is back. (My understanding of the chainsaw terminology was that it describes the case where scum attacks town attacking scum, but that the tell was confounded by the other circumstances you've described (e.g. Cops, Masons, etc).) I would be all over a Hayker wagon, except that RF swears on the Bible of Meta that he is town.

It would be nice if RF could explain his position a little more clearly.

I thought that foil AND SirPent looked scummy, so I am receptive to the idea that Mae is scum. However, I don't understand RF's case on Mae. It looks like a lot of it depends on understanding a lot of other players' alignments. Also, we already have a VT claim from DoS, so I think we're better off sticking to him rather than risk outing PRs and so forth. We should perhaps look at the players who moved today's wagon away from SirPent and toward DoS if DoS turns up town.

My opinion of DGB has slipped a bit over the past few pages. She always seems erratic, but it's not clear to me lately what's motivating some of the recent shifts. My pet theory (pure conjecture!) is that Riku's slot may go town -> miller -> traitor -> town or something similar as a function of the player's choices.

[Iecerint]

I agree with your case on Hayker, but I dispute that DoS kept up the pressure on SirChris. He dropped it after SirChris picked up his activity IIRC. He only brought it up again after people started to join SC's wagon.

[Iecerint]

I want to hear RF explain in a little more detail why he's pretty sure Hayker is town before I think in any serious way about abandoning DoS.

[Iecerint]

SirChris, I think your interpretation of that WFH post is off-base. I'll agree that the tone is a little weird ("Gee, thanks!"), but he posted it just after a large number of players had insinuated that I was anti-town for shooting zwet for whatever reason. I think scum would've gone along with that, even if it didn't make much sense. Even up-til-then credible players like Gorrad were getting in on it. WFH looked pretty lackluster before that post, but that was a good one.

I am sort of dumbfounded that you don't understand Hayker being scum. It does not require very much imagination.

[Iecerint]

I agree with that last.

[Iecerint]

Good enough for me. I'm staying on DoS.

[Iecerint]

Oh. Neat. L-1. Who knew, etc.

Vaya is off my good list. <_<

[Iecerint]

Vote: raider8169

[Iecerint]

Joe is a useless player. Could be scum. Could also just be a useless player. Joe, are you always a useless player?

I'd rather vote the scummier of the two players most instrumental in the DoS lynch for now. His first post today was particularly bad.

Remember that we now have two town mislynches to analyze. Surely we can narrow things down from there.

[Iecerint]

Eh, I'll support Sajin with that. I think he's town and I think his target is scum. Raider can wait.

Unvote; Vote: Hayker

.

[Iecerint]

Hiya. Enjoy the previous 70 pages, etc.

[Iecerint]

We're "really" on D3, kinda. I DK'd zwet after a full wagon had built up around him. At the very least, I'd strongly encourage you to research the zwet and DoS wagons.

[Iecerint]

It's a pretty fun read. Promise. I replaced in, too!

[Iecerint]

Actually, I never claimed that I was 1-shot IIRC. Rather, someone else speculated that that Jack Sparrow would be 1-shot.

[Iecerint]

I'll forgive you this time. <3

[Iecerint]

UK literally hates me.

[Iecerint]

You do. No idea why. That is a stabwound to the heart. Lazy is a scumtell.

Hayker is worse, though. Vote for him with us for +like points, please.

[Iecerint]

50% is a pretty big number, all things considered. Low sample size, though.

SC, that's nice, but please say things about Hayker.

I am very sympathetic to SSKwagon. But Hayker is probably better.

[Iecerint]

especially considering he claimed vanilla, so it's not like there was a PR at stake.

Huh? It's not as if SC's degree of Sora RPing changed after DoS claimed VT.

[Iecerint]

DGB may be 3rd party, but I doubt she's scum. I actually interpreted your posts the same way as her. On the other hand, your posts kinda fit the cute meta you've built for yourself.

[Iecerint]

Hey, I don't mean it in a bad way. It makes your posts fun to read.

That's what I meant when I openly wondered whether you were breadcrumbing with your new post-style D1.

[Iecerint]

Nope. I think she's 3rd party for flavorspeculation reasons.

[Iecerint]

Your meta is where you have 42134324 AtEs per post.

[Iecerint]

True story on the MM bit. I'd be upset with them, too, if I weren't one of the people who said it. <_<

I remembered him lurking way more than he actually did in MM, I think is the reason for me. Maybe is because lots of players were active in that game, so he seemed lurkier.

[Iecerint]

I don't think I need to hear about Sajin's PR in excruciating detail.

[Iecerint]

IIRC, most of his posts are IIOA, and the ones that aren't are fakescumhunting (awful "scumtell" on DGB, late-to-the-party vote on SSK, bandwagon-following "suspicion" on me).

[Iecerint]

I just can't imagine the lurker mindset- why wouldn't you play a game you signed up for? I don't see a town motivation for this behavior. Hence the MSSK wagon.

VT indignance seems to have explained it so far.

[Iecerint]

I've read through joe in RF's game. I buy that there's a difference. Still prefer Hayker for now. Slightly.

[Iecerint]

DN has just done the closest thing there is to a true policy-lynchable offense IMO. On the other hand, if he really is scum, the most obvious motivation he would have to do it would be to deflect attention from more powerful scum-mates. So I'm inclined to ignore his anti-town claim for today unless someone has compelling rhetoric to the contrary.

[Iecerint]

This is typical DeathNote play. It isn't odd for him at all.

[Iecerint]

*swells with pride*

[Iecerint]

But wait a minute. That seems kinda lame as a scum ability if that's all there is to it innit.

WFH, d'ya know if it only affects votes? (Careful, etc.)

[Iecerint]

I wonder if that's DGB's crap Miller ability. [/endspeculation]

I will be very cross with someone if a Town player tried to do that to me. <_<

[Iecerint]

Simulpost. Sorry. I hope I'm not in trouble.

[Iecerint]

My only experience with DeathNote is ongoing, so I can't link to it. I think someone else alluded D1 to a finished game where he claimed scumbuddy partners and so forth, though, so that may give you an idea of what to expect.

[Iecerint]

._.

unvote vote MSSK

Bro, you just revealed that you have been bussing me. Fail.

Unvote, vote cobalt

Literally lolwat.

DHS makes a great post, but he ignores Hayker/SSK. DHS -- and I promise this is not necessarily a litmus test for your towniness -- what do you make of the those wagons?

[Iecerint]

OK.

Unvote; Vote: MafiaSSK

. Now he's L-2. I won't shoot him until he refuses to claim or we receive a claim.

[Iecerint]

Of course.

[Iecerint]

I like Cobalt so much when he's not trying to modkill me. <3

[Iecerint]

Unless Cobalt claims that SSK is kill-proof, I think I should shoot SSK. Either way, we shouldn't lynch him until people have a chance to decide. If we intend to kill SSK and cannot shoot him, I think we should perhaps shoot someone else first.

UK, DN is anti-town, but that is his meta. Also, assuming you're citing his premature claim, I see no scum basis for his behavior. I describe SC's meta in a later post. WFH's vote is only gone for today. I think the answer to everything else is probably "yes."

[Iecerint]

I think there's more to discuss before I shoot either Cobalt or SSK. So don't worry about that. Anyone who quicklynches SSK should be viewed extremely critically D3. He's L-2 right now; maybe we should even put a moratorium on real SSK votes.

SC, do you think that Cobalt is lying about having responsibility for the flavor, that he is lying about the function of his ability, (and/)or something else?

SSK, what do you make of Cobalt's claimed ability?