California Trilogy: City of Angels - On Camera (Game Over)

[zu_Faul]

I don't have a clue what is happening here... yet.

Someone tell me what is happening right now (I know the rules, but what discussion are you currently having, what is publicly known about players etc.), please. That would make my reread much easier.

[zu_Faul]

I am going to post in character after I reread. Will be finished early this week. Posting in character won't be easy and I fear I am going to say something stupid.

Thank you for the kind reply Tabris. Who is the advocate for (not) pushing that button?

[zu_Faul]

So, for the decision of today, do we have anything pointing us into any direction?
Otherwise we could just flip a coin and follow what comes up... that does not give

them

the possibility of manipulating us. Only disadvantage is that

they

don't give us more evidence on who they are. But from reading this page there seems to be some already.

I have to order my thoughts.

Reread still going, did not have time today.

[zu_Faul]

So we have to make a decision.

I am still gathering infomation.

[zu_Faul]

I am still trying to make sense out of all this. Should be finished by the weekend. Never having seen what happens off stage feels like a strong handicap.

Do we know what roles are in the game? I mean roles like Stuntman.

[zu_Faul]

I would like to push the button if we have no clue what will happen either way. Just if you'd like an opinion from me. I figured I could give you at least that, as I have not fully caught up yet.

I think the stuntman could also mean that we should be courageous. This would imply pushing the button. (Though in my opinion not pushing it would need the same amount of courage, I believe that most people would interpret it is pushing is more daring.

What is up with the stuntman position being not filled?

[zu_Faul]

Can someone explain how to vote in concordet form?

I got a tape recorder over the weekend and was able to watch the beginning of this movie. I am glad I got the tape - though sadly a DVD with some extra material would have been much better (i.e. deleted scenes, outtakes and so on - it would have been very helpful to see what takes place behind the scenes). I have also followed along what happens on stage right now. I can hardly see a process of forming opinion though. I lost my copy of the script, so I don't know what to say.

[zu_Faul]

Valentine starts to sing:

'cause you woke up in the mornin, with the mission to to move, so why make it harder...
don't hold back...
if you think about it, so many people do, be cool man, look smarter....
don't hold back...
and you shouldnt even care, bout those losers in the air, and their crooked stares...
don't hold back...
cause there's a party over here, so you might as well be here, where the people care...
don't hold back...

World! The time has come to...

Vote: Push the Button

, Don't Push the Button.

[zu_Faul]

Psssst guys, I've managed to sneak a copy of the script on stage, because I am not sure I know my text by heart. The outline for Scene 5 says indeed that our choice is [good/neutral/bad]. But don't tell anyone, they'll fire me if they know I don't know my role.

[zu_Faul]

Valentine seems a bit... hysterical.

What if the evil ones sacrifice Dweezil to make us take the wrong decision? I mean, only two of them need to survive, don't they? What stops them from sacrificing people to make us choose wrongly? Do you guys all trust Dweezil?

Valentine falls to the floor. For a moment you think she is unconscious, but she gets to her feet.

What... did I say something? I remember saying that I am afraid of Dweezil. But we have to trust him, no? Otherwise we would just be guessing wildly, and that is dangerous as well.

[zu_Faul]

Do we know the alignment of the recently deceased MafiaJin? I missed the info about this offstage.

[zu_Faul]

Umm... what CKD said Day 1, about him turning evil when we make the wrong choice. It does not really fit what it says in the rules. There it says that the good/bad choice influences the setup of the endgame. I found nothing which would indicate that there are additional consequences of those choices; and we did not experience any when we made the good choice, did we? So what he said does not really make sense.

[zu_Faul]

Thanks.

[zu_Faul]

I guess I assumed you were going to reach some sort of conclusion from that information. Have you been fully brought up to speed on events yet? Who do you think are the decepticons?

Also, you could answer my question from early about whether or not YOU trust Dweezil and think we should drink the tequilla.

It just makes it easier to see why he says what he said in the past. I promise to be up to speed before this scene ends.

I am pretty sure that the artist formerly known as John Locke is hindering the development of this film.

Well, it seems that I miscalculated on Dweezil. I thought that the scum could not get down to two members before the final scene even if we lynch correctly all the time. But this is still possible, so I am going to trust him. If it was like I first thought they could do everthing they can to make us play a worse setup. [Of course, we don't know their numbers, so it was speculation all the way. I don't think that they have more than 6 members.]

Still, drinking the Tequila has the same expected value as drinking something else...

[zu_Faul]

You guys remember Angel? [Gaspar] I really think he does not belong here. It seems what he is doing in contrary to our purpose.

I overheard him talking offstage about "slips". But I remember him from an earlier *ahem* movie, in which he clearly stated his dislike of slips. He made me not use one... which was kind of nice, I must confess.

[zu_Faul]

Reeeeally interesting. I also lean to believe CKD here - the rules don't forbid this possibility, I think after rereading them.




This, is quite along my line of thinking. But as I said before, I doubt this is beneficial for scum at this moment. Choosing the tequila or choosing something else is the same right now. (Assuming we will get told afterwards what each choice would have given us.)

I'll make a post with my thoughts on each player when we leave the stage. It rather belongs there (and I am sick, and don't really want to stare at a screen for too long right now).

Happy Scumday, Thesp.

Quotes removed. See the rules regarding allowed tags. - Mod

[zu_Faul]

If anyone who is alive now was the AP, now is the time to speak up.

There is no good reason why the AP should claim now, and not when he is pressured, is there? It just confirms to scum who they should kill between scenes.

Obviously the scum knew for sure what would happen if they got us down to 5 innocents in the last scene. Otherwise they would not have lynched SL so blatantly.

Eh, we did know as well, it was going to be the worst setup possible... and as scum could not all migrate into this phase there was no risk for them lynching blatantly anyway...

[zu_Faul]

Ahh, Talilan uses the "scum never make mistakes" defence.

Claim: Assistant Producer. It appears to be the time for that. Yeah, I made some pretty bad choices. Also at first I did not get the thing about the stuntman role, and feared it would be absolutely terrible to give scum the job. Then I wanted to give the role to a player, but that player already had a role which I missed and then deadline was almost over. I made GAB Assistant Director, because before the Gaspar flip I was pretty sure she was town. Afterwards I regretted it. Any more questions?

I think scum are Talilan + [Vp Baltar, Mighty Orbots], but I'll reread first. There is so much again Talilanst just from the top of my head though. Just how badly she chose the last two scenes (it were both, right?) and how GAB conveniently kept them around. And most of the "but I attacked Thok/GAB!" is negligible as there were so many scum and so few to take into endgame.

Tags removed. Use bold only for voting. - Mod

[zu_Faul]

I feel totally clueless and like I never played Mafia before :/

If you jsut go by the numbers, Starkiss and hewitt should be scum. But I'd feel so dumb if scum gets an easy win just by playing a townish game. And I got a townish feel out of hewitt from previous experiences. With Talilian it is just the opposite. Bad feeling, but she has a good record.

Ahh, Talilan uses the "scum never make mistakes" defence.

Please clarify what you mean. This isn't the "scum never make slips" defence, it's the "scum would know not to make themselves look scummy" defence, and it's also the "well, it would have been easier just to sacrifice ourselves last scene". I wasn't paying that much attention to the game at the time but no-one suspected DGB and Thok were scum together AFAIK.

The thing is, the scum don't play a perfect game, just like town.


Ok, question time for everyone:

hewitt, why did you make so many abysmal choices?

Talilan, why did you lean in the direction of the crone in that scene?

Thesp, what was your stance on Gaspar?

Mighty Orbots, again the question, why did you just reask hewitt's question than validating number 41?

VP Baltar, why did you suggest Mighty Orbots do so?

StarKiss, give us a good reason not to lynch you (hint: tell us about someone else who is scummier).

[zu_Faul]

Obviously the scum knew for sure what would happen if they got us down to 5 innocents in the last scene. Otherwise they would not have lynched SL so blatantly.

Eh, we did know as well, it was going to be the worst setup possible... and as scum could not all migrate into this phase there was no risk for them lynching blatantly anyway...

Just how did you know? Ortolan actually asked about it quite early in the game and got no answer. In the rules it is not clear, IMO, that the final lynch of the final scene would count as 'triggering endgame early' and I'm actually a little annoyed that scum apparently had that information but town didn't.

It was in the rules all the time I was here...

There was definitely a downside to them lynching blatantly... because they sacrificed and exposed G&B & Thok, they did not have any choice about which two would go forward to endgame. And we effectively get two scum flips... something we've been desperately needing.

~Tal

We would have gotten those two scum flips anyway. What you are saying makes no sense at all. Yeah, they could not choose which two should go, any maybe Thok was a sacrifice, but GAB was not. But they knew we were getting the worst setup. That must have been wort the risk.

[zu_Faul]

zu_Faul, HOW would we have gotten those scumflips? Where in the rules does it say that we find out the alignment of the players who don't go to endgame???
I have read the rules several times and as far as I am aware we were never going to be told the alignments of players not chosen for endgame and I have been playing all along as though this were the case.

And where in the rules does it say that the last lynch of last scene would be considered 'early'??

What freaking rules are you reading?

~Tal

In the rules it said that, as soon as one side is down to minimum number, endgame starts. After the lynch, town was down to 5 players, also known as minimum, so endgame started. It's actually pretty simple. It was said that the other players are killed off. Anyway, even when if we were not given an explicit flip of thok and GAB, they must have been scum, as scum lost two people and town none.

[zu_Faul]

There wasn't support backstage. One of the MO hydra thought there was a problem with what I had worked out. I remember Thesp specifically did not want to send a sign indicating anything as he though the onstage people should play it out. Ortolan did his own figuring out and came up with crone... that was when the onstage accident happened. I'll let him explain why he thought crone.

What do you think about Thesp's behaviour there?

Refresh my mind on the "accident", I read the scene, but probably too quickly and I may have forgotten parts.

[zu_Faul]

zu_Faul,

We didn't know how many scum there were. I assume neither did you.

If we hadn't got down to 5 town and triggered early endgame, we would not have known how many scum and town were left. The

only

reason we know Thok & DGB's alignment is because we triggered endgame early.

Oh, this is true.

Re: Thesp not wanting to send a sign onstage... Yes I thought it was worth noting after I it was revealed that maiden wouldn't have been a bad pick. Thesp didn't appear to put any effort into figuring out the puzzle himself, just wanted onstage to play it out. (Now that I check back, MO also did not want to send a signal onstage.. I guess I found this less suspicious because one of MO was at least attempting to figure out the puzzle).

~Tal

Does make that MO more scummy than Thesp? He essentially only pretended to solved the puzzle.

[zu_Faul]

Baltar, answer my question, please.

[zu_Faul]

This is interesting. If you're going to lynch me and Starkiss lynch me first so I can sit back and watch/laugh at the rest of this game.

At least answer my question.

Also, my hand hurts like *'?%& so I can't type much.

Also, Baltar, StarKiss answer my questions. What is it with you guys not answering?

I am really quite angry at Hewitt if he is town after the game. I mean, he would be the SECOND town player, who says "yeah, lynch me" this game. This behaviour is totally ridiculous. It is an INSULT to me, who replaced into this game, read up so much stuff, only to lose, because two players decided that this game was no fun to them (or whatever else).

[zu_Faul]

This is my opinion at this point:

Vote: StarKiss, VP Baltar, Mighty Orbots, Hewitt, Talilan, Thesp, No lynch, zu_Faul.

[zu_Faul]

hewitt, why did you make so many abysmal choices? [...]
Mighty Orbots, again the question, why did you just reask hewitt's question than validating number 41?

VP Baltar, why did you suggest Mighty Orbots do so?

StarKiss, give us a good reason not to lynch you (hint: tell us about someone else who is scummier).

It is possible I overlooked an answer, so please just redirect me.

[zu_Faul]

I found Hewitt's answer it was on this page.

[zu_Faul]

MO, [StarKiss], Talilan, do two things asap:

Vote (concordet).

Give a reason why you haven't done already.



[] for StarKiss because she promised stuff tomorrow.

[zu_Faul]

Read the thread for the context, but it wouldn't have made a difference, imo. Even if MO had asked if 41 was very good and got a no, what would that have changed? We would have been guessing anyhow because it was one or both of Thok and DGB who lied in that scene. It would have been a complete shot in the dark either way and we wouldn't have had any better of a chance to get a Very Good with another guess.

Unfortunately, I didn't push hard enough to reask DGB's question when that thought occurred to me. I'm guessing she was the one who lied there, so if MO had asked hers again we would have at least had a slightly better chance of guessing correctly.

Your whole argument was stupid. What you said:

But if noone is lying then there's not point in checking 41 because it's guaranteed to be our Very good.

Therefore, the proper play would be to check one of the previous players wouldn't it?

If no one is lying it would not have mattered one bit who to check.

You were only mentioning GAB

once

, hidden in some umimportant sentence. You also said Thok was trustworthy. It was never like you even began pushing for a re-check of GAB.

This looks like scum play to me, telling useless information and helping the scum.

Tags removed. Use bold only for voting. - Mod

[zu_Faul]

I already have voted. Condorcets are ridiculous. I said that at the very beginning.

Meanwhile, the off-camera crew is busy lynching people. I'm guessing this functions like a regular mafia game. That weird voting system (which I think we should avoid, really) comes into play here.

Did no one ever ask you why? If someone did, what did you reply? Because right now I think concordets are really awesome in the situation we are in. Scum really can't kill tonight because of them (or they'd leave a CI alive).

[zu_Faul]

Reading until the end of the thread is tech.

[zu_Faul]

Reading until the end of the thread is tech.

XD

Yeah, I was in a lecture writing those posts, but it ended to early, so I only skimmed the last parts of the thread, after I posted.

I think straight voting works for every other game on this site just fine and work just as well here. I see no reason, at all, to add another variable into the mix.

The Condorcet BS muddies the D1 votecount for me. Maybe you're better at parsing it than I am.

Look, it is actually a

boon

to town rather than a hindrance. And if you want to just see who is voting whom, then just look at the first column of the table. Or, at the normal votecount above.

I can't see your refusal to use the concordet right now in a positive light at all. There is really no downside, there is just a strange feeling of yours if you are town or scummy motivation if you are not.

[zu_Faul]

Also, MO, why do you have VP Baltar in such high regards?

[zu_Faul]

FYI, my school has banned game sites such as mafiascum, so everything will get done in 6 hours when I return home.

http://anonymouse.org/anonwww.html

Also, how were you just posting?

[zu_Faul]

If no one is lying it would not have mattered one bit who to check.

I did not believe no one was lying. If no one was lying, then there wasn't even a point in using the last question, was there?:roll:

Very nice of you to leave out what I quoted of you:

But if noone is lying then there's not point in checking 41 because it's guaranteed to be our Very good.

You

bring up the "if noone is lying" stuff. I was just referencing this. No need to roll your eyes.

What was my scum motivation for wanting to check someone?

Check a person who was town is good for scum. It was already stated (and obviously a good idea) to check someone instead of trying something funny with that last vote. Of course there is scum motivation for you to get the wrong one checked. This is why you pushed for hewitt and not for GAB or Thok.

This is why I hate confirmed towns. They never put any real effort into a game and they say stupid shit that makes no sense because they won't be lynched. It has never failed in all of my games on MS.

I just want to hit you with a big stick right now. I am putting effort into this game and I already have. And I am trying to find scum

right now

.

You were only mentioning GAB once, hidden in some umimportant sentence. You also said Thok was trustworthy. It was never like you even began pushing for a re-check of GAB.

I never said that i was arguing vehemently for it, but I did suggest it. In fact, I was the only one to bring up any such idea and you can see in hindsight from DGB's reaction that I was on the right track. So, if I am scum for actually suggesting checking her, what does that make everyone else who said nothing?

I reread again, then had to waste 5 minutes to check who Tabris was. OK, you suggested Tabris (=GAB) is to be rechecked and pretty openly, sorry for that.

[zu_Faul]

Regardless of which plan we end up with, we need a presumed townie going last. I'm disappointed that my preferred choice, SL, cannot make it, but I'm satisfied with MO's pro-town performance enough for him to hold that key last position.

GAB really wanted to make sure she was going to be last. We now know why. Don't you think it is possible she planted a scum buddy at the end?
Well, that certainly is a possibility, but then I think she would have suggested MO, who was ranked second in protownness right away.

I don't like how in his offstage posts he has Thok and GAB as town. But he had KY Krew and Pooky as scum early on. Then switched to GAB as somewhat scummy, but "too blatant". Features good analysis on her. Says Thok is scummy.

So, yeah, I think MO is town.

[zu_Faul]

This is my opinion at this point:

Vote: StarKiss, Hewitt, [Talilan, VP Baltar], Mighty Orbots, Thesp, No lynch, zu_Faul.

[zu_Faul]

New AP would no be confirmed I think it said this somewhere in the rules. One could go and make a case out of this, but almost everyone has a bad grasp of the rules here, so no meta-argument.

Happy Birthday Thesp.

The problem about voting analysis in this game is that there so many scum that they could easily accuse each other to make themselves look more townish.

I somehow want to move Talilan in my scum list a bit forward. I'd say lynch StarKiss first, then Talilan. If the game still continues afterwards we have enough information that the remaining survivors can make a good decision.

[zu_Faul]

If I was leaving people off stage in that scene it might have been DGB, Starkiss, hewitt or some mix like that. Not saying it would have been correct and it could have ended the same way, but SL was obv town and a bad choice.

Your 3 picks would have left offstage with no method of communication. Something CKD got villified for. And unless all 3 are scum (possible but by no means certain), would have put us automatically into worst possible endgame. We also would not have got the benefit of seeing two scum flip, because the scum would have had all the time in the world to make their lynch look like a well-meaning one. My picks were better.

~Tal

We'd still have two scum flips. I fail to see how you still don't understand this.

[zu_Faul]

Thanks mith, for running this game.

And MO, you sure had guts to hammer.

I sure have learned a lot from it, both good things and bad things. I have learned a good deal about myself, how I need to play to get the results. And hey, I was right about Thesp and Baltar, and should not have been talked out of my suspicions of MO. I just need to be more self confident and it'll work.

Though because of the bad things I have learned this game, I guess I'll never find a use for my newfound skills.

Thanks again to mith for running this game.

[zu_Faul]

I think at least one other person accidentally posted on-stage like did beforehand (shadowlurker). Obviously I didn't intend that at all, not being scum, and obviously I regret it because of its negative consequences.

What has being scum to do with that? Even a town player can want to illegally post there.

(Unless you meant real life scum).

[zu_Faul]

zu_Faul: I didn't intend to post it there. Tbh I think deliberately breaking the rules is something neither town nor scum would do, but if anyone would deliberately break the rules in that context it would be scum trying to mislead the town and happy to cop a strike for it. I hope none of you think I deliberately posted on-stage, it was an accident, as I said.

I did not want to imply that. Sorry if it sounded like I accused you of cheating.


@VP Baltar: Well, I told you hewitt was town...

[zu_Faul]

I really think it was actually the Assistant Producer who let us down in this game. Panzerjager really made terrible picks to hold the roles and his unnecessary drawing attention to the fact I had information from Off Stage was really stupid.

Well, choosing was not trivial either.
I know I made some really idiotic stuff (not appointing a stuntman etc. (well, the first time, the second time it was planned), but the thing is that you often had to make a decision which lasted for quite some time, so you had quite some responsibility. And remember that the AP could not choose from everyone, as several people already had roles.
That said, I have not reviewed Panzer's picks, but mine were quite ok except for GaB.