Flash Mafia: You won!

[populartajo]

/c-c-c-onfirmation

Hey elvis, I am also town. Maybe we can have that threesome here.

[populartajo]

^ This wagon is relevant to my interests but I have a better idea.

Vote: Mufasa.

wagon gogogo

[populartajo]

Rayfrost and rolf are town. Spyrex is almost there. Flashy is also ok.

Pome posted in another game after the wagon developed. So Pome, why are you lurking?

Mufasa is meh, as usual. I would give him slightly stirrer town status if it werent for his quick spyrex countervote. You wanted people to react to your wagon, then why did you unvote yourself and vote Spyrex?

[populartajo]

reasoning for me town?

relaxed tone, reminds me of your play in pokemon, your analysis in 52 looks good and i doubt spamming the thread this early is a good idea for a scumbag.

reasoning for spyrex leaning town?

spyrexscum lurks and his posts feel stressed. basically a relaxed spyrex is a town spyrex. I need more to give him his normal town status, though.

reasoning for rolf misspelling?

lmoa.

[populartajo]

Dag nabbit tajo not the meta again. Le sigh.

But its not just your scum meta (or the meta I think you have as scum). Its also your meta as town.

My Mufasa vote is serious. Thoughts?

What is your theory?

MBF is leaning town in my books.

Also, MBF=Town.

Pome, at first I thought posts 63 and 64 were a doublepost but why did you change this between these two posts?

I don't think Mufasa is scum right now, though, I'm not getting a town feeling from him.

If you dont get a town feeling from a player, what is your logical next step?

wtf happened with mufasa?

cheated, played with accounts woot and mufasa in the same game.

tajo sorta scummy for saying ray is town for basically no reason

seems like you havent played with me before. oh hai reasons.

relaxed tone, reminds me of your play in pokemon, your analysis in 52 looks good and i doubt spamming the thread this early is a good idea for a scumbag.

Tell me why do you disagree with them.

[populartajo]

ebwop

hey wtf happened with my avatar?

more importantly, elvis, when did you change your avatar?

[populartajo]

Yeah I would have liked him to answer my question before he went omg woot wtf are you doing here?

Mufasa is such a wild card and can be exploited if pushed properly. Either he gets destroyed by the pressure or either his wagon stirs the pot. Guess we'll just wait for the replacement to complete the read.

[populartajo]

I thought he was Ergo. Unless Ergo is also Iammars.

Usual V/LA until Monday. Party all the weekend.

[populartajo]

Bigger post tonight after work

[populartajo]

For some reason I thought this game would be in page 20 after my party weekend. Much to my surprise, we are just in page 11 but I already skimmed some wallotexts so yeah thx..., dont you understand people dont read wallotexts?

Disclaimer: you can still post readable wallotexts. Here is an example:

@Tajo: Well, he's currently in neutral. Though, there's also the possibility of third party with its own selfish interests.

what makes you think he could be third party?

Page 5
The wagon on ray is developing too fast. The wagon is at l-3 with poro and bunny pseudovoting him.

where's the vote, eh?

same to you, prozac.

This post makes me feel ray is prob town. I mean, Im sure scum could be less confrontational with people suspecting him.

i don't really like my mufasa vote either if he's being replaced tho.

wut?
Actually the end of 105 is a good observation. (case on snowbunny).

Unvote. Lost interest in mikeburnfire for now, though I still got my eye on him.

crypto, what exactly changed between your mbf vote and your unvote?

The snowbunny wagon is also developing fast. Agoti, crypto, rolf and rayfrost all vote in the same page. Assuming a scum maneuver, I think there is prob one scum in this group.

First thing that struck me was that Tajo stated a lynch on AGOI would benefit him. I dont see how this is unless he is a lyncher and in such a case then he should have voted AGOI but chose instead to vote Mufasa. Can you explain that Tajo?

When did I state an AGOTI lynch would benefit me?

@Tajo. Why are Rofl and Ray town? Equally about Spyrex and Mike. Reasons please its not far beyond page 3 I believe. Do you believe your opinions can change?

All these four had a relaxed/townie tone in their posting circa page 3. I use these statements to stir conversation based on this towntell that is pretty accurate in my experience, see who asks, see who agrees, see who disagrees. And of course opinions can change as the game develops.

Overall I approve 128. Taking stances is goodposting.

Pomegranate's double post is suspicious. Pom felt it was necessary to change "MBF is leaning town" to the more assertive "MBF=town". This lets me know that he's previewing his messages, then altering them slightly before he posts, perhaps in an effort to prevent giving away any scumtells.

This is also a good observation. I dont find a town motivation foe why Pom would change the intensity of that phrase.

unvote. Just putting this out there: I do not condone Mufasa's play. I am not a jester. Also, I am not Iammers or Erg0 or anyone else.

Hi Kast!

tl,dr. You have a nice case there, kast. What do you think of frost spamming and agressive stance to his voters?

i'm torn about ray, what he did that i originally voted him for was scummy but i'm being swayed by how much he's flattering me. (i know, i know, all the flattery is actually scummy too, but i'm egotistical and want it to continue.)

wtf?

No, this does not make sense. Third party, SK, is a type of scum. So a person should be reading scummy to you in order for you to start contemplating what type of scum. Neutral is not a deisgnation for scum.

elvis gets it.

FOS Pome for voting rolfcopter while drawing a link between rayscum and rolf scumpartner.

Yes, there is a convenient wagon on RF already. Makes sense, but I still don't like rofl.

Unvote; Vote RayFrost.

I dont like the quick vote after rolf and elvis pressure. It seems like Pome is blindly trusting them.

Yey more wallotexts I wont read.

Page 8.

Frost claims vanilla. Im going to call 182-185 a slightly town reaction. Doesnt feel like someone pressured lying.

Spyrex gets townie points in 205.

Snowhite's last paragraph of 207 is a town reaction to Frost's claim.

Based on these facts, Im less and less liking Pome for supporting the Frost wagon based on crayon's attacks.

Oh hai spyrex-mbf wallopost battle I wont also read where the real point is to prove Im more clever than you, yey. Skim verdict tomorrow.

I want tajo to post more. He's starting to feel like lurker-scum

I said I was going to be vlaish for the weekend.

What exactly is the case against agoti?

Unvote.

Hos: Spyrex.

Why no Vote?

Although after the last few pages I'd flat out forgot Tajo and Rofl were in this game.

Oh why hallo thar.

Conclusions next post.

[populartajo]

Like

11. Spyrex
2. Rayfrost
4. Elvis_knits
12. Snow white

I dunno

7. Green Crayons replaced Mufasa
9. Crypto
1. Porochaz
3. Roflcopter
13. Mikeburnfire
8. A girl on the internet : someone give me a case on her, Im too lazy to dig for it

Dont like
5. Snow_Bunny
10. Pomegranate

I just isoed Pome again and I strongly suggest a wagon on her.

Vote: Pome.

[populartajo]

Prochaz? You mean Pome right?

I want to know who thinks like me. Iso Pome and tell me what do you think.

[populartajo]

Sigh, me no likes being ignored.

Case on Plum.
iso 2 and iso 3: after mbd attacks frost, spyrex and pom, she defends weakly with a)I didnt know my vote was the third and b)yeah mufasa acted strange but not scummy, but scum also try to avoid conmotion, but this its wifom, so yeah, not a solid stance. Also, yeah, that change of intensity regarding mbf's towniness is still weird.

iso 4 through 8 are total active lurking.

iso 9 is the "I think ray is scum and rolf is his scumpartner, so I guess Ill vote rolf" wtfpost. Pom is definitely not thinking very much in who she is voting.

iso 10 is a quick response due to elvis and rolf pressure. Pom unvotes rolf and votes ray. I mean, why would I trust someone I just called scum?

iso 13 is a yeah, ray claim. Pom definitely adds some pressure to the wagon. Why is this important? See below.

iso 16 is still Pom supporting the wagon supporting the green crayons case and the terrible defense point.

But iso 18 is bye ray, hi spyrex. Notice the unvote and the posterior HoS. Why the unvote? Did Ray convince you he was town? Why the Spyrex HoS? Those posts were not even scummy...

iso 19 through 23. No more mention of ray. Not even a why. So what do I think? Pom pushed hard for a Ray wagon until it dissolved. Does she seem like a player that really thought ray was scum? Definitely not.

So yeah, wagon, pretty, please?

[populartajo]

Im finally doing my thesis, so these days Ill post once a day or two. If things get hard, Ill prob ask for a replacement in a couple games, though I doubt this is going to be one. Just letting you all and mod know this.

Bigger post tonight.

also agoti is obv xyl.

[populartajo]

Elvis, Spyrex and whoever is calling my absence lurking, reading is tech. im going to be terribly busy at least for two months. I'm checking only in the night.

I see that a rayfrost wagon is giving him a second try and Im still going to be that guy and think that the way the wagon developed was stinky and kinda fast for a scum day 1 lynch. Also I trust the town gut read I have from him backed up with his town play on Pokemon Mafia, his spamming idiocy and confrontional stuff against his pseudo attackers really smell like "hey, I just painted a giant target behind my back".

Of the frost wagoners, Pom is still scum and Im interested that only a few care about it. She was an active pusher of the lynch when it was on its climax, yet she unvoted and changed gears when the wagon dissolved. I repeat, this is not the behavior of someone who genuinely thinks someone is scum.

Yeah, guess Ill go back to "lurking" until more people give a crap about me.

[populartajo]

I was already the guy before you was the guy but I have no problem in having more guys like these because these are the guys that have sight beyond sight.

What is the case on mbf? A quick iso is giving me a slight town vibe. the battle of the quotes you both had before felt like two players trying to prove who was more clever instead of scumbag(s) looking for a new target. also iso 35 reeks of sincere scumhunting, although I disagree in some points, specially in the ray tunneling, I can understand why he thought what he thought.

In other news, I really want to revisit green crayons, exmufasa. What do you think of him?

[populartajo]

I dont like how mbf detaches from this wagon.

If I'm reading this correctly, most of the case on Pom stems from her vote in the Mufasa wagon. If that's the case, then this wagon is incredibly flimsy. Stop wasting time and let's kill RayFrost.

Im pretty sure you supported my case before.

I like your arguments, tajo, but not so much the "trusting somebody she just called scum" part. Seems like she was responding to elvis, not rofl.

So what exactly changed in this period of time? Why did you support the Pom wagon before and now that its finally growing why you are reducing the arguments?

@Pome, is yay going to be your only reaction to the wagon against you? I want a scumlist nao.

[populartajo]

Woah woah, wtf is happening here?

Did rolf put pome at L-1 without having fully caught up? Also, did rayfrost also hammered without asking for a claim?

Forget everything I said about rayfrost. That scumlist is freaking terrible. How the hell can you call rolf town when he has lurked big part of the game? Why am I in your scumlist? Why the hell did you just hammer?

[populartajo]

ebwop, i remembered that rule about the obligatory unvote, so pom isnt lynched.

Still, I dont think rolf and frost knew this, so my accusation still applies.

[populartajo]

I did remember it

What? So what were you trying to accomplish there? Did you know Pome was at a pseudo L-1?

tajo seems town to me now~

wtf, so what changed your mind?

[populartajo]

so you want me to buy this was another lol reactions stuff?

why should i believe you?

also why is rolf town?

[populartajo]

Yeah, I cant say I didnt see this coming. Ray's late day 1 really sucked hard and Im not surprised that behavior has prolonged today with the pressure. I have a strong feeling that some of his posts today are designed to wifomize, kamikaze style. Like, what was the point of posting a bunch of stupid reads on 502 when he is at L-1? Did anyone ask?

For the record, regardless of ray's flip, rolf and bunny are still scum. Rolf l-1ed without asking for a claim, is flip flopping/deflecting like crazy and bunny contributed to the wagon and disappeared shortly after. Also, Im pretty sure there is at least one busser in the quick wagon, so check this list also when the game has less people:

poro, flashy, bunny, white, elvis, spyrex, (crypto)

Im hammering in the next hour or so, so any final words are welcome.

[populartajo]

Im finally doing my thesis, so these days Ill post once a day or two. If things get hard, Ill prob ask for a replacement in a couple games, though I doubt this is going to be one. Just letting you all and mod know this.

Do I have to make a gd thread about this?

[populartajo]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 27#2006427

[populartajo]

Why does your lurking point still stand when I already explained why I didnt post before?. Have you at least checked that my last post yesterday on the site was at midnight?

Im not criticizing the ray wagon, what in hell gave you that impression? Im expressing my thoughts on people I think are scum. Rolf and bunny, do you disagree with me on rolf?

And no I think bunny is scum since day 1, the quick short vote and posterior disappearance is another scum point.

[populartajo]

Also,

Also, Im pretty sure there is at least one busser in the quick wagon, so check this list also when the game has less people:

poro, flashy, bunny, white, elvis, spyrex, (crypto)

Given the fact that you just named 7 out of the 9 remaining players (excluding yourself), the only way you could be wrong is if Ray is scum with AGOTI and ROFL.

So, yeah. That's a pretty useless statement.

Its not useless if you have any townie reads on the list. Dont you?

Why does your lurking point still stand when I already explained why I didnt post before?

Because I said you're name and you showed up, you freaking genie.

Im posting at the same time almost every night, which is the time I get back home from university. I should be the one asking that question. Why did you call my name of all possible ones?

Im not criticizing the ray wagon, what in hell gave you that impression?

I didn't say that. You're criticizing THOSE ON the ray wagon. Specifically, you called it a "quick wagon", which I suppose it is, but not without reason.

I dont understand what is the problem in calling this a quick wagon, and therefore, a wagon that regardless of ray's alingment, probably has one scum on it. What exactly you are attacking here?

do you disagree with me on rolf?

No, I really don't know what to think about ROLF at this point.

Try harder.

Ill hammer tomorrow after an answer. Good night.

[populartajo]

Tajo

, why did you not vote/hammer Ray?

[/list]

Came back tired from uni.

Dont worry Ill still do it. Not today, seems there are a lot of questions and doubts and I really want all to have optymal night actions.

I have a theory that is in my mind since ray posted the scumlist at L-1 today. Why do you think he posted a list of players/reads when no one asked? Do you really think his behavior today is of a townie being at L-1 considering how talkative he was yesterday? Why ray's today is so different from ray's yesterday even when we are in the same situation? Early yesterday, yeah, spamming and threatening his lynchers was all fine and dandy, but today, nothing, not even a trace. And yeah, that hammer and lol reactions dont help him either when he was one of the possible choices.

Considering how quick the wagon developed and how many people want to vote him, I think the plan was to have ray lynched and wifomize the playerlist in an attemp to muddy the waters.

Even in the worse case, that, being ray scummy townie, "ray's day 1" is a pretty informative lynch and pretty much not ever going to die since he already claimed vanilla. I really need a good argument to not vote Ray and I dont think there is one.

[populartajo]

Considering how the frost wagon developed yesterday, Im pretty sure there is at least one scum here.

Rayfrost(6): Porochaz, mikeburnfire, Snow_Bunny, elvis_knits,

SpyreX

, crypto

And prob at least another here:

Mikeburnfire(2): Snow White,

Rayfrost

Porochaz(2): Roflcopter, a girl on the internet


Of the frost defenders, rolf's flipflopping yesterday and also 635 is scummy as hell.

He is basically attacking people for something that he also did:

i've been burned in several games by rayfrost being a complete and total idiot who turns up town, but i'm ready to hammer

already losing hopes for godfather frost surviving the day.

vote: porochaz

this is the right lynch

wait, maybe not, there seems to be support for another wagon.

hey everyone, before ray gets hammered by tajo, what is your opinion of porochaz, and why do you think ray is more likely to be scum than him?

i was wrong, yeah, tajo, hammer ray but lets bring some suspicion to poro before.

ray's attempted gambit with no apparent purpose is actually exactly what i would expect a dolt like him to pull as town. he didn't know what it would accomplish but HAY COOL I CAN GAME THE SYSTEM LEZ TRY IT!

yeah, after i just said i was ready to hammer and after i approved tajo's hammer, i decide to call him town. unnecessary fabricated post.

If you want to check, these posts are in chronological order.

Vote: rolfcopter

[populartajo]

Wow that snow white wagon was lochnessific.

but first things first:

Let's lynch tajo instead. I really liked that part of AGOTI's post and analysis.

vote populartajo

Here we go again.

lets see the referred post:

we've got now confirmed scum and now confirmed town sittin at 4 votes each. everyone besides tajo on the town wagon is known town (i will be after you lynch me, before you go ragin at me calling myself confirmed town). seems like scum would be all over that one, unless one of them was already there - looks bad for tajo.

yeah, except my vote was the first one and pretty much mufasa's wagon was a semirandom wagon, iirc, the first one in this game. If there is a suspicious vote on that wagon, its prob yours, agoti, specially when you were the first to abandon it.

also interested in why you left this wagon out of your wagon analysis:

Vote count

Rayfrost(4): Green Crayons, mikeburnfire, crypto, Porochaz
Mikeburnfire(4): Spyrex, Elvis_knits, A girl on the internet, Pomegranate
Snow_bunny(1): Roflcopter, Rayfrost
A girl on the internet(2): Snow_Bunny
Pomegranate(1): Populartajo
crypto(1): Elvis_knits

Not voting (1): Snow white.

with 13 players, it is 7 to lynch

I doubt we have 2 scum wagons itvotecount, (also insert ray-mbf relationship here). Which means that if we assume mbf is prob town, then the mbf wagon was a counterwagon to the frost one also at four votes. So whit Spyrex and Pome dead, who is the scum in this votecount?. Same question to elvis.

regarding snow white, there is some good stuff there, ill read with more detail tomorrow.
something that cauth my attention was this:

Tajo/Frost interaction. Tajo's reactions measures significantly as town. Dammit. X(

are you angry because you realized I was probtown or what?

As a bonus, rolf basic scumtell is lurking. last post in the site was today at 1:01 am in gd. not that there isnt directed at him itt.

[populartajo]

Dear Elvis_knits:

Im pretty sure you know how to use the "find all posts by populartajo" in my profile. Youll find out something interesting regarding my activity on al my games, dear.

XOXO

Tajo

[populartajo]

Hi guys.

Should have let you and mod know that I was away for Christmas. So Merry Christmas and such!

So back into the game, reread this, reread that, Elvis claims cop in 710 and here is a dandy analysis of what Ill call the breaking point:

First, worst scenario: Elvisscum claiming cop when rolf is at L-1.

-First idea coming to my mind is elvis-rolf scumteam with carrie preventing rabbit lynch which pretty much was inevitable. Can it happen? Definitely. I tried (and failed) at this in invi4 to save rolf himself for a lynch that interestingly enough ended in mine and in the loss of the whole scumteam.

Balance tells me that there is max 3 scum left here, leaning to 2, so a gambit like this definitely is a high risk-low reward scenario with pretty much the loss for the scumteam most of the times. Simply for the fact that all the chain explodes when only one of the links fails. So I dont see elvisscum saving rolfscum at l-1, and if this is the case, then when all the lynches keep popping out townies and all the nightkills keep popping out more townies and elvis and their investigations miraculously dont die, then voila, we have the scum here.

-Second idea is elvis scum-rolf town interaction that definitely is something to notice if elvis doesnt die near lylo. If elvis is scum, then claiming cop is pretty much suicide as long as people keep dying while she constantly keeps popping out investigations, which, we know, is something scum totally hate.

So tl/dr, elvis is prob town. If she stays alive for 2-3 more days, then she is prob scum.

Second, best scenario: Elvistown claiming cop when rolf is at L-1.

-Elvis cop for some strange reason gets a town result on rolf scum. This scenario is less likely with godfather frost dead, but still plausible with the paraphernalia of roles in flashy arsenal. We could still apply the logic above with rolf. If elvis dies and is indeed a cop, then rolf prob becomes confirmed town. Confirmed townies are pain in scumbags ass. So, if he stays alive for more than he should, then analyse voting patterns, interactions with mafiosos, etc.

Elvis, did the mod tell you what happens in your reveal?

-Elvis and rolf are both town. Pretty much the scenario Im going to work with here (at the moment).

tl/dr, at this moment, the best thing is to assume that elvis is indeed a town cop for the simple fact that trying this gambit as scum is pretty much suicided and loss for the scumteam. Im also going to assume rolf is town, applying pretty much the same logic and the likeliness of having another messup with the investigations that are reduced with a godfather already dead.

[populartajo]

Now for the second part of my post Im going to analyse the reactions to this situation:

We have an anti-elvis anti-rolf group conformed by mbf, poro and subtly but still, snowwhite.

We know of course that it would be something really awesome that all these three are scumbags fighting in desesperation, but things arent that obvious and I totally dont expect all scumbags blatantly supporting each other this early. One thing Im pretty sure is that there are good probs of having at least one scum here.

I think of the three mbf is the less likely to be scum, (see additional reason below), since he is the one fighting hard here and I find here more paranoid of the possible outcomes than trying to discredit elvis claim from a scum pov. Im more suspicious of the people that are supporting his position but staying in the second lines, poro and white here. Ill need to reread to find out who is the prob scum in this trio.

Also, with elvis prob town, then agoti looks even worse in this votecount, the same that makes me think that mbf is prob town:

Vote count

Rayfrost(4): Green Crayons, mikeburnfire, crypto, Porochaz
Mikeburnfire(4): Spyrex, Elvis_knits, A girl on the internet, Pomegranate
Snow_bunny(1): Roflcopter, Rayfrost
A girl on the internet(2): Snow_Bunny
Pomegranate(1): Populartajo
crypto(1): Elvis_knits

Not voting (1): Snow white.

with 13 players, it is 7 to lynch

Yeah, as the majority of people missed it the first time, I strongly suspect the mbf wagon was pushed by a scumbag to counter the frost wagon. With elvis being prob town here and pome and spyrex dead and townies, then agoti becomes very likely scum in this scenario.

Iamusername also has posted in the site numerous times while agoti never posted here.

So Im going to go with

Unvote Vote: Agoti.

[populartajo]

Tajo is scum. No one with half a brain cell should sit back and question nothing. And frankly i felt Mike was carrying a great deal of heat from Rofl so i gave my two cents to his arguement, which if im scum was probably not the wisest thing to do in the face of a claimed cop. I was not discrediting her claim in fact i said i believed it, but i could see where mike was coming from but that i would not even consider Elvis's lynch unless there was a counter claim. - is this rubbishing her claims Tajo?

I take this as a summary of the white's vote against me.

Look, white, the logic is pretty simple here. I explained why it is very likely that elvis is telling the truth. So if I assume elvis is indeed a sane cop and that rolf and crpto are indeed good investigations, then logic tells me that if there is a group of people trying to go against the likeliness of elvis being a cop, then its very likely there is a scum hidden there.

Do you disagree with that logic?= If yes, why?

I never called you the scum of that group, so why are you acting as if I called you that?

[populartajo]

we avoid the problem altogether when we lynch mike and he flips scum

why dont you just read what I posted about him in my post and tell me why do you disagree with me?

[populartajo]

Did you notice that ray did not ask why tajo thought rofl was town? Hmmmm?

I dont understand why this is notable. Elvis?

[populartajo]

-Iso zerp, immediately proclaims he's town.

Why is this a bad thing in the joke context of that post?

-Iso one, claims the AGOTI wagon is relevant to his interests but votes Mufasa instead pre-Mufasa bandwagon.

the agoti wagon was realevant to my interestes because his avatar was a girl on underwear. I explained why I chose Mufasa for the first wagon of the day.
I repeat, why is this a bad thing?

-Iso two, claims RayFrost is town, asks Pome why she was lurking. Looks as though your trying to focus attention elsewhere.

I was wrong about frost. Pome WAS lurking.

- Iso 3, you state that Ray's play reminded you of Pokemon where he was very actively pro town.

Please read Pokemon mafia and compare.

-Iso 9, claims the wagon on Ray was too fast by page 11.

It was.

Apparently seen no problem with Ray putting Mufasa at L-2 in two pages.

It was rvs.

Im sure scum could be less confrontational with people suspecting him

towntell that has worked more than 90% of the times

-Iso10, suggested the lynch on Pome.

and?

whole homemade excuses for the Raywagon.Continued pushing for Pome's lynch.

Its pretty easy to accuse someone of wrong reads when the results are already on the table. I explained why I thought Ray was town and why Pome was scum. Now I was wrong but tell me if there is something scummy in my reasoning.

-Iso21, You claim regardless of the flip there was at least one busser on the RayFrost quick wagon

you think there was no bussing in the frost quick wagon? really?

-Iso24, you claim bunny is scum and you have thought so since day1 but no where have i found that you say such cognitive developments.

does gut have a meaning for you?

Iso25, you get into some disagreement with mikeburnfire and instead of hammering Ray you FURTHER prolong your vote until "tomorrow" after you get an answer from mike as to Rofl's actions

yes it does because there was no need to rush the day when there were people still questioning each other and when ray was SO the lynch of the day. If I had hammered ray as fast as I could, I can see you making the accusation of OMG, TAJO, WHY DID YOU HAMMER SO QUICK SCUMSCUMSCUM.

-Iso 26 INDEED! When you do re-log back in to answer questions you CONTINUE to make excuses for Ray and say you will still hammer ray but *insert ray excuse here, here and here*

INDEED see above.

But no one wanted to not lynch Ray!!

please check your facts before posting. rolf and agoti did not want to not lynch ray.

You do not for a second address your lack of a promised vote.

why should i?

Instead you point fingers at everyone on the RayFrost wagon and on MBF and AGOTI.

because there was bussing on that wagon. this isnt hard to understand, is it?

But the person you pick out is Rofl for their love affair. buddying.

so you dont think that relation was suspicious. why?

to me after me reading late day1 actions. Just the word probtown. You should know if your outright town and not only that, lord it over if someone is thinking about reconsidering you.

/facepalm

While outlining the ways in which she may be lying too, yes. Which makes you just as "subtle" as me.

except because I explained why the situations where she was lying were not likely!!! asdasfagfafakg


I raelly dont know what to make of this post. it wants to feel genuine, kinda silly at some points. but it just feel like a compilation of all my posts spread with peanut shit.

white, are you an alt? what is your experinece in mafia games?

[populartajo]

Still kinda drnk but HAPPY NEW YEAR EVYERONE!

@Snowwhite: okay, so basically your case reduces to he took a million of million ages to hammer frost so that he could draw the cop. For starters, why are you blaming this failure only on me? Can you come back to the situation and find out who else could have hammered?

Check out these additional reasons that explain this:

a)Go check back to the situation again and find out that there were people that had finished talking and asking questions, scumhunting, faking to do it, etc etc.

b)Im pretty sure that there was no apparent benefit of hammering ray after 2-3 pages of discussion. Ray was going to be lynched anyways and a hypothetical cop would have claimed as soon as ray hit l-1, kinda like elvis here. So your theory fails here. In the other hand, having at least one or two pages of reactions to the l-1 would probably give more information, cough, agoti, cough.

c)yeah, the thesis reason is still here, at that time and for the following weeks, im going to be able to check the thread only at night.

regarding your wiki case, I dont read wikis or find them important, so no fake scmhunting or bs like that. check my wiki, btw, it has nothing. My questions was to find out your experience and capabilities of doing what you did as scum. I can conclude then that your attacks are wrong but prob not scummy, as they feel genuine.

[populartajo]

ok, with that out of my hcest, time to sort things in this place.

If you think agoti is town, please provide a raeson to explain why so, if not I expect you a vote for him in your following post.

For reference, I provided a case, so check my iso for more.

[populartajo]

bunny can I have a scumlist in your following post?

[populartajo]

it would truly depend what she thought of you before doing that comment.

I really need that scumlist first before destroying my agoti wagon, though.

now that we are on it, crypto, what are your thoughts of agoti?

[populartajo]

oh joy, another wallopost directed at me, courtesy of mbf.

The only "case" I see is your Iso31 (Post 777), which boils down to "Scum must have countered the Raywagon on Day 1", which is a false assumption.

I never said scum MUST have countered the raywagon. I think that if there is a wagon in a scum godfather and then there is also a counterwagon with the same amount of votes, then its highly likely that there is at least one scum trying to save the godfather. Tell me why do you disagree.

And more importantly, do you think that everyone who was voting you at that point was town? Really?

. What about the final Ray lynch? That consisted of Porochaz, Snow_Bunny, elvis_knits, SpyreX, crypto, and myself. Spyrex is dead town. Elvis has claimed cop with innocent on crypto. Porochaz seems town to me. The only ones left are you and Snow Bunny.

So what exactly changed between oh guys, elvis is far from confirmed town to this new reasoning, mbf?

Looking back, the only reason I went after AGOTI is because she was against the Ray wagon. But now that I think about it, it's possible for BOTH scum to bus Ray, especially if, as you say, his lynch was inevitable.

Considering that there was some aversion to this lynch and some lurkers at that point, I would say that this IS a less likely assumption than the frost counterwagon.

Yesterday Tajo didn't want to hammer Ray because he wanted more discussion, or so he claims. Today there's a whole lot more going on, but now he's rushing us to vote AGOTI? And on weak reasoning to boot? This is way too inconsistent.

wowowow, hold your horses there. First I think discussion has died here, people are either drunk or pushing individual cases with no much success. Second, yeah, trying to revive the thread and force people take a stance on someone I think is scum is scummy as fuck, go figure. And third, its NOT weak reasoning. We have agoti trying to derail the wagon on day 2 and we have that counterwagon in day 1 which is far the best case based on wagon analysys. Now, if AGOTI were the top contributor or the most protown player on this thread, this would change, but oh yeah, I forgot lurking is also a towntell. Gogogo weak reasoning.

Re: bunny-tajo scumpair. Feel free to speculate what you want, Im not scum and therefore all arguments based on this relationship are bs. I must admit I got distracted with the information frost lynch and the cop claim gave us, since it gave me the strongest read I have on agoti instead of my gutsy bunny read. If you notice, I asked for a scumlist some posts ago.

[populartajo]

But I agree that Tajo's gut-scum-read-on-the-backburner SB read is a common card scum try to play.

seriously whats so scummy of pushing a scum read based on wagon analysis/lurking/relatiosnhip with flipped scumbag instead of a gutsy scum read based on yeah gut?

[populartajo]

Im not scum and therefore all arguments based on this relationship are bs

Logic

win

!

sup crypto, im pretty sure there was more on that post for your reading pleasure.

[populartajo]

English?

si señor

just realized Im at L-1, so either someone unvote me or dont get in this thread drunk. tia.

and if you want a claim, then, here have some vanilla ice cream for the night.

good night.

[populartajo]

hai user iamausername, im going to answer only the posts that involve only me as scum. you can keep your scumpartnership theories to yourself.

tajo promises to hammer ray here, which is a promise he never follows through on. definitely looks like he changed his mind about bussing when he realised that there might be enough idiot townies like me who still thought ray was town to get a different lynch happening.

I have already explained like million times why I didnt hammer, it doesnt surprise me at all you missing this information. If you dont think its true then tell me why you dont think it. Also please check your facts right. I dare you to find a post where I m trying to get a different lynch happening. Go ahead.

and yet, still no ray vote. because he was still holding out hope that someone else would provide that good argument against lynching ray that he couldn't come up with himself.
While at the same time posting this about him:

I have a theory that is in my mind since ray posted the scumlist at L-1 today. Why do you think he posted a list of players/reads when no one asked? Do you really think his behavior today is of a townie being at L-1 considering how talkative he was yesterday? Why ray's today is so different from ray's yesterday even when we are in the same situation? Early yesterday, yeah, spamming and threatening his lynchers was all fine and dandy, but today, nothing, not even a trace. And yeah, that hammer and lol reactions dont help him either when he was one of the possible choices.

Considering how quick the wagon developed and how many people want to vote him, I think the plan was to have ray lynched and wifomize the playerlist in an attemp to muddy the waters.

Even in the worse case, that, being ray scummy townie, "ray's day 1" is a pretty informative lynch and pretty much not ever going to die since he already claimed vanilla. I really need a good argument to not vote Ray and I dont think there is one.

yeah right.

(what i'm saying is that tajo is attacking rofl for something that he also did, and then also accusing rofl of attacking people for something that he also did)
(that makes tajo a double hypocrite. a hypocrite squared.)

okay you need to die now.

FIND A SINGLE POST ON DAY 2 THAT SHOWS HOW I FLIPFLOP ABOUT RAYFROST. FIND IT.

hey town, if we can't kill elvis, do it for us plz.

hey town, if somehow elvis is a scumbag pulling an unlikley gambit and doesnt die even though she has claimed the worst nightmare of scum..., yeah Im pretty sure you can complete the sentence without trying to throw shit to my face.

[populartajo]

Snow Bunny, what do you think its wrong on this paragraph?

Hi guys.

Should have let you and mod know that I was away for Christmas. So Merry Christmas and such!

So back into the game, reread this, reread that, Elvis claims cop in 710 and here is a dandy analysis of what Ill call the breaking point:

First, worst scenario: Elvisscum claiming cop when rolf is at L-1.

-First idea coming to my mind is elvis-rolf scumteam with carrie preventing rabbit lynch which pretty much was inevitable. Can it happen? Definitely. I tried (and failed) at this in invi4 to save rolf himself for a lynch that interestingly enough ended in mine and in the loss of the whole scumteam.

Balance tells me that there is max 3 scum left here, leaning to 2, so a gambit like this definitely is a high risk-low reward scenario with pretty much the loss for the scumteam most of the times. Simply for the fact that all the chain explodes when only one of the links fails. So I dont see elvisscum saving rolfscum at l-1, and if this is the case, then when all the lynches keep popping out townies and all the nightkills keep popping out more townies and elvis and their investigations miraculously dont die, then voila, we have the scum here.

-Second idea is elvis scum-rolf town interaction that definitely is something to notice if elvis doesnt die near lylo. If elvis is scum, then claiming cop is pretty much suicide as long as people keep dying while she constantly keeps popping out investigations, which, we know, is something scum totally hate.

So tl/dr, elvis is prob town. If she stays alive for 2-3 more days, then she is prob scum.

Second, best scenario: Elvistown claiming cop when rolf is at L-1.

-Elvis cop for some strange reason gets a town result on rolf scum. This scenario is less likely with godfather frost dead, but still plausible with the paraphernalia of roles in flashy arsenal. We could still apply the logic above with rolf. If elvis dies and is indeed a cop, then rolf prob becomes confirmed town. Confirmed townies are pain in scumbags ass. So, if he stays alive for more than he should, then analyse voting patterns, interactions with mafiosos, etc.

Elvis, did the mod tell you what happens in your reveal?

-Elvis and rolf are both town. Pretty much the scenario Im going to work with here (at the moment).

tl/dr, at this moment, the best thing is to assume that elvis is indeed a town cop for the simple fact that trying this gambit as scum is pretty much suicided and loss for the scumteam. Im also going to assume rolf is town, applying pretty much the same logic and the likeliness of having another messup with the investigations that are reduced with a godfather already dead.

[populartajo]

Also just remembered something:

agoti, after invi4 and how I tricked you with my hider claim with rolf at L-1, why do

you

think elvis is telling the truth?

[populartajo]

Also just remembered something:

agoti, after invi4 and how I tricked you with my hider claim with rolf at L-1, why do

you

think elvis is telling the truth?

this post

its scummy

lynch tajo

No its not.

Its wondering why agoti is very comfortable with the elvis claim after I tricked him with a similar claim in a similar situation.

This doesnt mean I think elvis is lying, fyi.

[populartajo]

but it is begging agoti to think that. which means agoti is town when you flip scum.

its not begging nothing, rolf.

its catching agoti in a different reaction to similar situations based on his town meta.

this isnt that hard.

[populartajo]

its begging/cajoling/attempting to influence the opinion of agoti, and it all adds up to the fact that you are scum and s/he is town

/facepalm.

Why would I try to influence agoti's opinion when:

a) me, myself and I think elvis is prob telling the truth.

b) I know agoti thinks elvis is telling the truth.


The deal is that I would expect iamusername to take this claim with a grain of salt after what happened to him in invi4*. Which means that there is a behavioral inconsistency in his play. Which means he is scum.

*in fact, he is basically the only player besides investigations that gives elvis confirmed town status.

"So tl/dr, elvis is prob town. If she stays alive for 2-3 more days, then she is prob scum."

hey town, if we can't kill elvis, do it for us plz.

[populartajo]

First of all, you are assuming that Elvis-crypto team can't be possible. You are also assuming that the gambit (claiming to protect a partner) is high-risk low-reward, but I beg to differ. It there are only 3 scums (two left), and, let's say, rofl is scum and gets lynched, Elvis would start D4 alone and against 6 town. That's a bit hard for scum. And, if the gambit is to save a town-rofl (Elvis-crypto), the risks are lower. If Rofl gets lynched, then Elvis and crypto would be left as confirmed towns, and surely getting them an insta-win.

If rolf gets lynched and is scum that means elvis is very likely scum. That is a high risk-low reward scenario.

If rolf gets lynched and is town, by now ways that means elvis is confirmed town.

Anyways, why would rolf be lynched/killed first than elvis?

Which is the premise of my argument. Cop claim basically deal with itself when its NOT lylo. If elvis is telling the truth, as I believe, she is going to die soon because scum cant afford a claimed cop to live to pawn them (ya know investigations are a bad thing for scum, right?). If she doesnt die and suboptymal town targets start popping out, then thats a whole different thing. But this is something we'd have to deal after, even if we have, not today.

But well, it can't be helped if town wants to play sheep.

name the players that are playing like sheep.

unvote for now. More later.

why.are.you.unvoting?

[populartajo]

That said tajo is still my most favouritest to hang. For everything listed several pages back.

that was answered several pages back with no further concern, mrs. white. I demmand a new case, an answer to my reply or an unvote.

hey tajo, remember how iamausername lurked through the first half of that game, and then made a massive post summarizing his reads, in which he named four players as scum, and all of them were scum?

this isnt even related to the way you are behaving with a similar claim in a similar situation. Of all the players here I would expect you to be at least a little worried about elvis' claim. Yet, you are giving her confirmed town status.

would like also an answer to my previous post.

I don't like tajo comparing my play in this game to his play in /invy4. It's sort of stupid. I was in that game with him and I saw how well that worked for him, which was... not at all. So I don't know why he thinks I would try the same thing.

Do I have to explain again how dumb it would be for me to fake claim cop to save rofl or crypto?

hey carried, reading is tech.

tl/dr, at this moment, the best thing is to assume that elvis is indeed a town cop for the simple fact that trying this gambit as scum is pretty much suicided and loss for the scumteam. Im also going to assume rolf is town, applying pretty much the same logic and the likeliness of having another messup with the investigations that are reduced with a godfather already dead.

This doesnt mean I think elvis is lying, fyi.

a) me, myself and I think elvis is prob telling the truth.

[populartajo]

Everybody seems to miss what my problem with agoti is:

If you have a player that behaves differently as you would expect him to do....

Does that mean he is scum, town, nulltell? And why?

............

I think the majority is thinking that Im comparing my scumplay with elvis play in this game. Which is NOT the case, as my posts above show. My problem is not with Elvis. Its with AGOTI.

[populartajo]

Oh but i thought the case i compiled on you was basically me shitting all over your posts? One wouldnt think that worthy of a rebute. It more or less speaks of itself with you answering my questions with your own questions

and?
you think there was no bussing in the frost quick wagon? really?
does gut have a meaning for you?
why should i?
so you dont think that relation was suspicious. why?
white, are you an alt? what is your experinece in mafia games?

TL;DR

Your rebuttal was shite. If you actually make an attempt to explain your thought process minus insults and the attitude ill read it and re evaluate.

snow white, I apologize for any insults. TBH, I dont even remember using them.

My questions are not designed to be obnoxious and are indeed designed to find out your reasoning process and try to understand your motives. That means I do expect an answer from them, not an angry reproach.

Coupled with your obnoxious attitude, pretence ignorance as to my experience with games without even bothering to look, the way you answered without explaining didly squat. Makes me like your lynch even more, the refusal to hammer ray and paradox as to you suspecting elvis without really suspecting her but others were (subtly or not) in your opinion were just the foundations. So you can go ahead and "demand" the removal of my vote but until you answer something to a satisfactory degree or i, find someone scummier than you then my vote will remain. And you do not have the power to order me to change that.

Experience in games : already answered.

Ray hammer: already answered.

Im not suspecting Elvis.

What exactly is your problem with me?

[populartajo]

Snow White:

-Iso zerp, immediately proclaims he's town.

Why is this a bad thing in the joke context of that post?

-Iso one, claims the AGOTI wagon is relevant to his interests but votes Mufasa instead pre-Mufasa bandwagon.

the agoti wagon was realevant to my interestes because his avatar was a girl on underwear. I explained why I chose Mufasa for the first wagon of the day.
I repeat, why is this a bad thing?

-Iso two, claims RayFrost is town, asks Pome why she was lurking. Looks as though your trying to focus attention elsewhere.

I was wrong about frost. Pome WAS lurking.

- Iso 3, you state that Ray's play reminded you of Pokemon where he was very actively pro town.

Please read Pokemon mafia and compare.

-Iso 9, claims the wagon on Ray was too fast by page 11.

It was.

Apparently seen no problem with Ray putting Mufasa at L-2 in two pages.

It was rvs.

Im sure scum could be less confrontational with people suspecting him

towntell that has worked more than 90% of the times

whole homemade excuses for the Raywagon.Continued pushing for Pome's lynch.

Its pretty easy to accuse someone of wrong reads when the results are already on the table. I explained why I thought Ray was town and why Pome was scum. Now I was wrong but tell me if there is something scummy in my reasoning.

-Iso21, You claim regardless of the flip there was at least one busser on the RayFrost quick wagon

Do you think there was no bussing in the frost quick wagon?

Iso25, you get into some disagreement with mikeburnfire and instead of hammering Ray you FURTHER prolong your vote until "tomorrow" after you get an answer from mike as to Rofl's actions

yes it does because there was no need to rush the day when there were people still questioning each other and when ray was SO the lynch of the day.

-Iso 26 INDEED! When you do re-log back in to answer questions you CONTINUE to make excuses for Ray and say you will still hammer ray but *insert ray excuse here, here and here*

INDEED see above.

But no one wanted to not lynch Ray!!

please check your facts before posting. rolf and agoti did not want to not lynch ray.

You do not for a second address your lack of a promised vote.

why should i?

Instead you point fingers at everyone on the RayFrost wagon and on MBF and AGOTI.

because there was bussing on that wagon. this isnt hard to understand, is it?

But the person you pick out is Rofl for their love affair. buddying.

Do you think that relation was not suspicious. why?

While outlining the ways in which she may be lying too, yes. Which makes you just as "subtle" as me.

except because I explained why the situations where she was lying were not likely!!!


I raelly dont know what to make of this post. it wants to feel genuine, kinda silly at some points. but it just feel like a compilation of all my posts.

[populartajo]

@Agoti:

hai user iamausername, im going to answer only the posts that involve only me as scum. you can keep your scumpartnership theories to yourself.

tajo promises to hammer ray here, which is a promise he never follows through on. definitely looks like he changed his mind about bussing when he realised that there might be enough idiot townies like me who still thought ray was town to get a different lynch happening.

I have already explained like million times why I didnt hammer, it doesnt surprise me at all you missing this information. If you dont think its true then tell me why you dont think it. Also please check your facts right. I dare you to find a post where I m trying to get a different lynch happening. Go ahead.

and yet, still no ray vote. because he was still holding out hope that someone else would provide that good argument against lynching ray that he couldn't come up with himself.
While at the same time posting this about him:

I have a theory that is in my mind since ray posted the scumlist at L-1 today. Why do you think he posted a list of players/reads when no one asked? Do you really think his behavior today is of a townie being at L-1 considering how talkative he was yesterday? Why ray's today is so different from ray's yesterday even when we are in the same situation? Early yesterday, yeah, spamming and threatening his lynchers was all fine and dandy, but today, nothing, not even a trace. And yeah, that hammer and lol reactions dont help him either when he was one of the possible choices.

Considering how quick the wagon developed and how many people want to vote him, I think the plan was to have ray lynched and wifomize the playerlist in an attemp to muddy the waters.

Even in the worse case, that, being ray scummy townie, "ray's day 1" is a pretty informative lynch and pretty much not ever going to die since he already claimed vanilla. I really need a good argument to not vote Ray and I dont think there is one.

yeah right.

(what i'm saying is that tajo is attacking rofl for something that he also did, and then also accusing rofl of attacking people for something that he also did)
(that makes tajo a double hypocrite. a hypocrite squared.)

okay you need to die now.

FIND A SINGLE POST ON DAY 2 THAT SHOWS HOW I FLIPFLOP ABOUT RAYFROST. FIND IT.

hey town, if we can't kill elvis, do it for us plz.

hey town, if somehow elvis is a scumbag pulling an unlikley gambit and doesnt die even though she has claimed the worst nightmare of scum..., yeah Im pretty sure you can complete the sentence without trying to throw shit to my face.

[populartajo]

As I have said before, I believe Tajo and Bunny are scum together, and would like one of them lynched (Snow Bunny preferably). I won't vote since I'm still technically on V/LA, but I'll likely vote Tajo over the weekend, and encourage Rhinox to stay away from the AGOTI lynch. It reeks of a scum setup to me.

What exactly makes you think agoti is town and this is a scum setup?

[populartajo]

I fail to understand how someone that posted this......

ray's hammer was majorly bad, but i still don't think he's scum.
here's the real one that got away:
vote: mikeburnfire

defending godfather

ray is rly bad at this game, and hammering pom without a claim was the biggest example of that, but he's still town, and policy lynches for bad play are for suckers.

defending godfather

see, maybe i'm just gullible, but i actually buy that ray thought the vote wouldn't count and wasn't actually intending to hammer. that makes it bad play and not scummy play imo.

defending godfather

but so many people are dead set on RAY MUST DIE that i can't see him not bein lynched today, so you should probs just get on with it.

subtly detaching from the imminent lynch

k, i'm prob getting lynched today. i can live with that. not gonna waste time defendin myself against prozac's lame case that i could be using to find scum instead.

rofl is one. like, duh. would've figured that anyway based on his d2 play, which is clearly coming out of the gate thinking ray is a dead man walking and intendin to bus asap, then changing his mind when it looks like there might be a chance to get someone else lynched. but srsly:

oh look this is the same case tajo made against rolf but somehow when tajo makes it, its ALL wrong.

tajo wrote:
mykonian wrote:
Rayfrost(4): Green Crayons, mikeburnfire, crypto, Porochaz
Mikeburnfire(4): Spyrex, Elvis_knits, A girl on the internet, Pomegranate
Snow_bunny(1): Roflcopter, Rayfrost
A girl on the internet(2): Snow_Bunny
Pomegranate(1): Populartajo
crypto(1): Elvis_knits
Not voting (1): Snow white.
with 13 players, it is 7 to lynch

Yeah, as the majority of people missed it the first time, I strongly suspect the mbf wagon was pushed by a scumbag to counter the frost wagon. With elvis being prob town here and pome and spyrex dead and townies, then agoti becomes very likely scum in this scenario.

this is a totally legit reason for thinkin i'm scum tho. just a shame it's wrong.

caught scum


... is considered town for a bunch of gibberish analysis that most people, Im pretty sure, havent even read.

I dont even remember what is the case against me.

[populartajo]

I can understand how somebody would think that Ray was just being stupid. WIFOM aside, it would normally be beneficial for AGOTIscum to distance herself from Ray, who was looking like a likely lynch, rather than defend him, especially on Day 2.

Seeing as how ROFL is likely town, you *ARE* all wrong.

The key here is that if you have a group of people reluctant to lynch a flipped godfather or that if there seems to be traction for a counterwagon, then WIFOM aside, its also likely there is a scumbag hidden here. So yeah if rolf is likely town, you can understand why agoti can be likely scum, even more when she attacked rolf for this same reason.

Gibberish analysis? Those were long, content-heavy posts. Sure it took a damn long time to get them, but to act like they are useless is disingenuous. And just because you didn't read them doesn't mean I didn't.

I did read them. I am awaiting for an agoit-s answer to my reply. I know that at least the scumgroups that include me are wrong, so yeah they are gibberish to me. Im just checking people dont think posting a lot means you are not scum when you arent even reading the logical fails I pointed out in this post.

[populartajo]

Last post here. I coudlnt care for mafia anymore and Im not going to waste the time I should be doing my thesis in defending from an stupid case.

Mod. Replace me.

[populartajo]

I may have sounded too harsh in the last post. I think this is more apporiate.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13201

[populartajo]

Awesome job, MBF!

I was following the game when I had the time and I really learnt a lot from flashy's shenanigans. This is a deserved win and Ill nominate you for a scummy, if it hasnt been done.

Now, in regards to my play. I think I made two fatal mistakes: not hammering frost. (yeah, I was expecting a cop investigation on him and not on rolf, wtf, elvis?, so good job realizing that, white) and comparing agoti's play to invitational's one that was something I regretted as soon as I did.

At some point I felt I was posting some good defense and no one was listening, got me a little irritated so thats maybe why I did it. Also my thesis' ugly head started to enter my life and mafia started to bore me as a whole. In the meantime, I definitely thought agoti would be easier to lynch but having rolf in the other side and confirmed as innocent, was the breakpoint.

Thats when I realized that I was going to die and that I had to help MBF for the win from another angle. At some point I thought bunny and prozac were traitors because it was so easy to tie me to them. With three more mislynches to win, I did my best to frame bunny and poro and let mbf to fight his way to the victory in lylo in which, as we know now, did it very well.

It was a good game. Good modding and some awesome performances. Glad it was my last game here, at least for the moment, hehe.

[populartajo]

I nominated MBF for Don Corleone.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 30#2165930