Flash Mafia: You won!

[SpyreX]

I hath confirmed

[SpyreX]

Yeehaw, time to lynch all liars:

Vote: A girl on the internet

[SpyreX]

I can be said to be nothing if not a helper.

Unvote, Vote: Mufasa

[SpyreX]

I'm willing to take the gamble on a jester (hint: its not) to lynch someone asking to be lynched.

[SpyreX]

You know that whole "lynch me" swapping to "look at all this discussion I'm generating"

Yea.

That can go LOS ROPOS.

If I was a dayvig I would have shot him. True story.

[SpyreX]

Dag nabbit tajo not the meta again. Le sigh.

However I dig on Ray.

My Mufasa vote is serious. Thoughts?

[SpyreX]

What is your theory?

Do something "WAKKY"

Go, "Lol, reactions"

Put on cruise control for cool.

Yea, I'm callin it out.

[SpyreX]

@Spyrex. What is your thoughts on Mufasa? What is your serious reasoning for the Mufasa vote?

Pretty sure I laid this out once and I'll give it another quickie (this weekend is kinda busy).

Coming in going "OHh hay vote for me" and then flipping around after that with the aforementioned "lol, reactions" especially when not explaning what the end goal was is legitimately scummy.

Especially since it is designed to just sit back, watch the madness and run that beautiful line of "scummy, but not scummy enough" to coast along.

I'm dead serious when I say if I was a vig the second I saw the "vote for me" I would have shot him in the head. Even if it ended the day.

[SpyreX]

I'm starting to get a nasty twitch about MBF (especially his RayFrost chug-a-lug).

However its the weekend so I'm not going to try and pin it down - that whole l-2 versus l-1 debate and the sweeping "all the scum are on the wagon" seems like hyper-aggressive posturing.

[SpyreX]

....

What in the HELL is going on in this game?

We have a page 8 claim?

Someone want to round up the rationale for this wagon and lay it out?

[SpyreX]

I wanted someone to sum in up because while enlightening this is really moonbeams.

The fact that it wasn't is also enlightening.

First off,

Unvote

GC is trying, but ultimately its the wrong way.

RF oozes town, for the simple fact there isn't any (or he's around the horn to awesome) manipulation in those posts. They reek of VT.

When you combine that with the rapidity and the "yea, I agree" business no way am I supporting that.

That said, I dig rofl's approach to ray. Partially because I agree about the genuineness.

E_k is a bit more of a worry on it - however I think I need a larger sample size to see if the short posts regarding the wagon are simple comments versus subtle pushing.

But enough of who is town.

Pom, MBF, Crypto.

This set does not give me the good feelings.

Pom's interaction on the RF wagon and the votejump bother me. More than a little. Especially the use of the word convenient to describe the RF wagon.

MBF's iso 2/3 together paint a magnificent picture. First, one calls out the wagon on Mufasa (again, see Silver Rule) and then flips and flat out rolecalls on him? I... (Not to mention a wagon like that is too delicious to not attack) and then the flip on me for calling out the agressiveness of his post under the guise of "trying to get under RF's skin" swoosh.

Crypto is skating (OHH NO HIP-HOPCRAZY) and I don't like it. Especially the interactions with RF and how they ebb and flow as a relation to the wagon.

[SpyreX]

I don't know what the Silver rule is, but I'm going to congratulate you on knocking over that strawman. Mufasa had already made a half-roleclaim. I just wanted to know if he was being serious.

Woosh.

The Silver Rule: If someone says "lynch me!" you lynch them. Period.

It's not a function of strawman. If you are calling out that wagon you have to assume its a bad wagon. Bad wagons are on town.

If you think Mufasa is town there is absolutely no reason to try to get more information about his role via something said in the confirmation stage of the game. The fact he even ANSWERED it is just icing on the wanting to vig him.

Further, and follow me here, it sets up the most heinous of crimes later: the "welp, he's a vanilla" lynch. Its the perfect excuse to jump on a wagon and it drives me nuts. And this isn't tinfoil because you yourself alluded to it later.

Well, I was trying to see how RF reacted to my accusations, but then you had to butt in. Thanks again for that.

Considering that sweeping statement has another one of those wonderful undertones of prepping to jump if any of the others on that wagon came up with some votes not buying it. Loaded questions are woosh. "Lol, reactions" questions are double woosh.

There also hasn't been a lot of scumhunting in his posts. Only person besides Mufasa he's gone after is Snow Bunny (using mostly already established reasons).

No, there hasn't. Nor has there from me. Or crypto. Or others I could find if I was feeling saucy.

Does this make a scum? Maybe.

Does this make a scum on page nine? Hells to the no.

This is a weak justification for a me-too wagon.

Vote: MBF

[SpyreX]

I hope I'm a Jester next game I'm with you.

Me too so I can lynch you, say grats and then move on to playing the real game.

You're attacking me for rolecalling Mufasa, which I did not. Attacking somebody for something they did not do is a strawman argument.

Ohh this is gonna be fun!

Mufasa, were you being serious when you claimed to be vanilla townie? Or were you just trying to start the pot?

When did I say that I thought Mufasa was town?

Between the callout of the wagon, and again later the "All the scum were on the wagon" statement to RF its not a tough deduction.

So... you think I shouldn't have asked him if he was being serious about his role claim because he could be town, but you would have vigged him anyway. Right-o.

Yes because there is no reason to answer that. Or to say lynch me. If I could have vigged him I sure as hell would have.

Now you're accusing me for something I haven't even done. What a nice change of pace.

I know RITE!

Therefore, I willing to hedge my bets on him either being vanilla townie or mafia.

If thats not setup for the "welp, he's vanilla" then...

For bonus points that whole paragraph could be more role-hunting but I digress.

Yeah, what moron tries to use reactions to find out who's scum? Let's just kill people who try to use logic.

I know. Seriously.

Logic != asking a loaded question. That not only prepresumes his alignment but those of the others on the wagon.

And being surprised when someone calls that out.

But, lets play along. What was your expectations from this gambit?

Does this make a town on page nine? Hells no. (Which is the point I was trying to make. Wasn't using it as a reason to vote for him at all. More strawmanning.)

I'm not lynching because "they're not town enough".
I'm lynching because "they're scum".

So you're saying this wasn't supplying a reason for your preference to lynch:

There also hasn't been a lot of scumhunting in his posts. Only person besides Mufasa he's gone after is Snow Bunny (using mostly already established reasons).

If not, since you're shouting strawman, what is it? Sure looks like justification to me.

[SpyreX]

Its not a 100% slam dunk but they feel genuine.

You don't appear to have an ulterior motive.

[SpyreX]

Mufasa: I'm vanilla townie
Me: Are you being serious, or are you joking around?
You: OMG WHY ARE YOU PUSHING FOR A ROLE CLAIM
Me: I'm not pushing for a role claim. He's already made it. I just want to make sure he's joking aroun-
You: STOP PUSHING FOR A ROLE CLAIM!

Also, the "all scum are on the wagon" wasn't a serious claim by me. Like I said in a previous post, it was FAR TOO EARLY for me to make connections like that. I was JUST TRYING TO OBSERVE HIS REACTION.

There's two parts to this (the beauty of caps nonwithstanding).

You came in and say the wagon was stupid. Further, you lept all over those players on the wagon. If this is genuine, the inference would have to be that Mufasa was town for this to be "stupid" and "silly".

Then, you ask if his statement in the RVS was serious regarding his role. Assuming the above, what rationale does town have to do that?

And, its really hard to stomach "FAR TOO EARLY" when your statement to him directly parallels your vote / FoS list that you inferred from your second post.

You just admitted that you would have killed somebody on the second page, even if there's a good chance he is town. That's incredibly hurtful for the town.

Not hurting the towns oohhh noes. Again, this means that you find the "lynch me" business to be not hurtful and is further justification for the belief that you find mufasa to be town and THUS the asking for his role makes no sense, still.

....then it's not. And it isn't. But that didn't stop you from attacking me for it.

When what is it? If its not preparation for a lynch because its "just a vanilla" what was the purpose of all that role speculation?

To see if RayFrost would react in a panicked sort of way.

What defines panicked?
Why would a scum panic there and not a town?
Was it a function of "all the scum on the wagon"? If not, why add that addendum?

You: Rayfrost is town because he hasn't been manipulative!
Me: Yeah, but he hasn't been scumhunting either.
You: So just because he hasn't been scumhunting that makes him scum?!?
Me: No, but just because he hasn't been manipulative doesn't make him town, either.
You: You're voting him because he hasn't been scumhunting, huh?
Me: No, I'm voting him because he put Mufasa at Lynch-2, gave two very weak reasons for doing so, and spent most of his time asking questions while giving a minimalist amount of input.

Woosh:

Me: Rayfrost is town because he is genuine. There isn't any feel of manipulation from his posts.
You: He hasn't been scumhunting. The only player's he's gone after are Mufasa and Snow Bunny (which, gasp, would be scumhunting but I digress)
Me: MANY players haven't been scumhunting. Why is that justification for HIM being scum at this point of the game?
You: Why is that justification for him being TOWN at this point in the game? P.S. Strawman
Me: What? How is your line about his not scumhunting not justification for his lynch? If not what is it? (This hasn't been answered, still)

The OTHER reasons for your lynch I'm not addressing because they haven't been related to this discussion. You shouted strawman at me and then spent all the time to make that post without addressing if that IS a strawman that means your snipe about scumhunting wasn't a justification for a vote...which means I have no idea what the hell it was supposed to be.

[SpyreX]

The wagon was terrible, but that has nothing to do with Mufasa's alignment. Terrible arguments can be made against both town and scum.

It has everything to do with his alignment, though. If you think he is scum and that whole lynch me business was a gambit (sup) then its not a terrible wagon. If you think he is town and getting powervoted by scum then your vote makes sense.

What DOESNT make sense is non-committal to his alignment and still attacking the wagon.

Because I wanted to know if he was making a joke (like I thought) or was legitimately making a claim. Welcome to 5 pages ago.

Why? What rationale, again, is there for needing to know that? (This is why that question shouldn't have been answered).

What overall town-purpose does asking if a confirmation statement is a true claim or not serve?

Not hurtful =/= town. Unlike you, I think somebody going "hai guys! Lynch me" isn't indicative of alignment. Seemed like more random silliness, a common occurrence in the first few pages.

I like the first part, especially since it was you bringing up the "I wouldn't want to hurt the town" business.

It wasn't random silliness. He even said that. He said it was "lol, reactions". So, why are you defending this under a guise that he, himself, has said was not the case?

I have never come close to saying anything about lynching RayFrost because he's "just vanilla". That has never been my policy. In fact, here's a link to a game in which I, as a townie, refused to lynch somebody just because "he's just vanilla". I did so at great personal risk, and everybody started to pile their votes on me afterward.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 72#1037972

This entire paragraph misses the point. If it wasn't for the purpose of setting up the vanilla-lynch, then what purpose did it serve? Why at that point not voting for him would you even bring that up?

I'm not going to waste my time defining words for you. That's what a dictionary is for.

Yea, I asked that because I don't know what panicked is.

If that was some great lol, reactions move then having an inference on what the reactions

could

be and how they affected your read on the events wasn't a difficult question.

However, if that was, in fact simply hyper-agressive posturing then "I'm not going to tell you what words mean" is a totally expected answer.

(See, this is an example of a "loaded" question with the intent to get a very specific reaction which you provided).

I am not saying 'RAYFROST IS SCUMMY BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BEEN SCUMHUNTING'. I am saying 'You cannot write him off as town just because he has some townish behavior and *seems* genuine. He's also had scummy behavior such as not scumhunting'

Your first line and last line of that paragraph would like to have a talk. Because, that last line sure says "Rayfrost is scummy for not scumhunting" despite the caps in the front.

You said that RayFrost was definitely town because he "seems sincere". Do you honestly think that is good reasoning? In a game where the whole point is to fake sincerity?

Because faking sincerity is hard? Seeming sincere is a whole different ball of wax and one of the better town-tells I've found.

[SpyreX]

This. You're not DOING anything. You're coasting and I don't like it.

[SpyreX]

Am I missing something because all I see really is:

Unvote. Vote: a girl on the internet. TLDR: she's scummy.

---

Wrong. Even if a scum is getting lynched, the wagon can be formed on terrible or non-existent logic, which it was. Regardless of Mufasa's alignment, the wagon was dumb and I stated such.

So I guess dumb is a scumtell since you called the wagoneers scummy and not just dumb?

Because if he had said "Yes, I'm seriously Vanilla", then he's stuck with that claim and can't go back later and say "oh, I was just kidding".

So you were fishing for his role. Or, confirmation there of. I can't be more clear about this. If in confirmation someone says "I am X" and you then go "Are you X" you are asking for information about his role that is unnecessary at this time.

Especially since, as scum, hitting PR's is always nice. And you fished that out all clean like.

Maybe it didn't have a purpose. Maybe I'm thinking out loud and posting my thoughts for all to see. To accuse me of setting up a "he's-just-vanilla" lynch when I've done no such thing is misleading.

So the paragraph of detailing out what you think his role is and the final conclusion of "vanilla or scum" is NOT in fact justification for a lynch but instead....white noise.

Roger that.

I'm not going to sit here and explain how people act when their panicking, either. It's self-explanatory.

No. It isn't. If that was designed to fish for a reaction then you should have a reaction to fish for. If you were expecting scum-ray to "panic" then having even a base idea of what would constitute panic would make sense.

Let me break it down Barney-style for you. If you say "That pen is red, it must be made of fire" and I reply "Yeah, but this pen is also blue. Does that mean it's made of water?", I am not stating that the pen is made of water. I am pointing out how stupid your first statement was.

We'll disregard both the tossout on my "stupid" remark AND the absolute logical blunder in your comparison with what we were actually discussing and go right back to this:

I am not saying 'RAYFROST IS SCUMMY BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BEEN SCUMHUNTING'

He's also had scummy behavior such as not scumhunting.

Just lining them up.

And, to go into detail that wonderful comparison aside.

I am saying I do not think Ray is a justifiable lynch because he seems genuine in his play. Further, the speed and style of this wagon reek of a mislynch.

Your rebuttal was that he wasn't scumhunting. When I asked what made him specifically the callout considering the others that hadn't on this (and the fact that "not scumhunting" is a hard to swallow justification on page 9). You then said it wasn't a rationale you were using for your vote (yet it keeps coming up) and that I've been mysteriously strawmanning.

Seriously, more votes here. This is done past the handholding finding out phase and on to the lynching scum phase.

[SpyreX]

@Crypto:

Was that NEWLY generated or does that exist somewhere else and I'm missing it?

@Pom:

Notice that I made reference to my own absence of play when I said that to Crypto. Further, notice that it and of itself doesn't change anything about it.

Further, you've given quotes with my interaction with MBF (non-contextually) without reasons for said quotes in the first place (unless that is your looking for examples of my "not doing anything" in which case go ahead and say and MBF can take a back burner to the furious lynching)

[SpyreX]

Hmmm.

Why that now versus when you were trying to make a wagon happen before?

[SpyreX]

Sweet.

Now, I'm gonna be THAT GUY again and say I'm not seein the AGOTI business either.

So, before we start holding hands, thoughts on:

1.) Poro coming in and stating something about the modcount without saying anything with the last few pages?
2.) Pom's last post.
3.) MBF

[SpyreX]

Crypto is skating (OHH NO HIP-HOPCRAZY)

and I don't like it. Especially the interactions with RF and how they ebb and flow as a relation to the wagon.

Yes, I threw a joke in there but I specifically referenced the potential for hypocrisy considering the fact I'd be absent.

Nor does that change anything about anything though.

[SpyreX]

I feel MUCH better about crypto after this last exchange. I'd point the finger of lazy directly at Pom.

Although after the last few pages I'd flat out forgot Tajo and Rofl were in this game.

[SpyreX]

The lines below them did. Those were setups (sarcastic ones) due to the tone of the interaction.

Definitely not the important part of those discussions.

[SpyreX]

Sorry poro I wasn't specific enough - not mentioning ANYTHING about me/mbf that's been giong on the last few pages.

[SpyreX]

It starts by you over reacting then it goes into semantics and what appears to be a circle between you and MBF. I see nothing productive in it and I dont particularly get it and would rather focus on AGOTI and cryptos fascination with the language aspect which to me is a null tell. It helps me work out who the alt most likely is. But a null tell non the less.

Then I'll try without the wall:

MBF will not take a stance on Mufasa's alignment while simultaneously calling out the wagon. Further, he insinuated to RF that "all the scum were already on the wagon" which should be an implication that Mufasa is town yet...

MBF unnecessarily asked for role information from Mufasa that makes absolutely no sense to ask for if town.

MBF has had some amazing doublespeak in regards to the vote on RF in regards to scumhunting.

There, nice and simple, no semantics. Like I said the handholding was done, the lynching time starts.

[SpyreX]

Crypto what in the hell did you DO in your post? Thats truly amazing.

SpyreX, I read your initial case. So that post really doesnt change things and just to go into this a tiny slight bit... if Mufasa claims jester then I think MBF is entitled to ask for role info.
As for your last point, you quoted it somewhere, as this is a morning before uni and Ive just pulled an allnighter and still have heaps of work to do post, im not going to look it up right now but I remember not seeing much of a point here.

Except for the fact Mufasa didn't claim jester. And MBF blew up at the wagon and THEN asked for information about his role.

[SpyreX]

Hey, I managed to double-post half my wall-of-text without making two separate posts.

^

That. I was reading it and got a weird sense of deja vu about half way through.

[SpyreX]

:headdesk:

There are no words.

[SpyreX]

....

Ray, you down for getting lynched under the caveat that if you flip town that means a vig shoots one of GC and MBF and if they are scum the other dies?

Because holy hell in a handbasket.

[SpyreX]

Haha I just checked the wagons (woosh) nevermind that for the minute.

Let it be known, though.

[SpyreX]

That's not the issue I have with that business.

It's the attitude around the case that is truly mind blowing.

For, see, the case on Ray is IRONCLAD. It is, in fact, the obelisk and we are to be the simians milling about beating our bones until we see the light of it.

It is, so strong, that asking a question to another player must be instantly refuted.

Yet, of course, I don't really remember seeing a whole lot of flack on the wagoners that fled.

[SpyreX]

.... I both want to hug and shake the hell out of both of you. THATS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR PAGES NOW.

[SpyreX]

.... my eyes glaze over at AGOTI's posts.

*Sigh* Am I going to have to repeat the entire debate I had with Spyrex two pages ago? I wasn't rolefishing. Mufasa had already claimed vanilla townie. I wanted to make sure he was joking. He was. I don't know why this is an issue. We'd only have a problem if Mufasa said he was seriously vanilla townie because then we'd have an unwarranted role claim.

I cannot honestly believe thatyou think that I was willing to risk my neck to rolefish a claimed vanilla townie.

We would have only had a problem because you asked in the first place. The cause is the issue, not the potential effects.

[SpyreX]

This game.

Rofl, interject some life.

Who else have we been missing fairly chronically? Tajo? Someone else? One of the snow twins?

[SpyreX]

?

[SpyreX]

That was more a "why a bad mood" thing.

380 gives me that ol' familiar itch.

[SpyreX]

I said chronically missing, not that I think you're doing it on purpose, sheesh.

You can't be that guy because I was already that guy and we can't have two of those that guys.

I concur about pom.

I would love to see what you say about MBF.

[SpyreX]

It's not a matter of clever - although if you think MBF is town what do you think about the fact after we were done with our discussions THEN people saw the light and jumped that way.

GC is an odd duck. On one hand, GC is a mufasa replacement and I would shoot simply for that. On the other, I think the RF case they brought was genuine while wrong. However, I really don't like the snipe on crypto and the attitude that the RF case was the best thing ever to happen, ever.

I would switch to pom if MBF isn't going through.

In fact, I'll do that right now.

Unvote, Vote: Pom

[SpyreX]

Why did you wagon here, SpyreX?

(Note: I was pretty sure that he was gonna try lol, reactions)

Its simple, ask to get lynched, get lynched.

Watching MBF do everything he can to stop this from going through is pretty awesome, btw.

[SpyreX]

Personally given the choice I'd STILL much rather lynch mbf. But, yes.

[SpyreX]

Who is this royal we you speak of?

[SpyreX]

I'm not 100% sure. I'm fairly confident on both of them but my issue is I still see mbf-scum if pom-town but not the other direction.

Sooo

[SpyreX]

Vote: Ray

There's no excuse.

[SpyreX]

... awesome.

[SpyreX]

Yea, we're done here.

[SpyreX]

If he's going to actually EXPLAIN before he goes under the rope then sure.

Regardless sometimes there's a damn good reason something is an easy lynch. Like this one.

[SpyreX]

Now, that only is true if he flips scum which he damn well better.

[SpyreX]

*Unless he flips scum, then this was an OK play?

I'll freely admit if this flip is town I'm not going to be surprised. Pissed, but not surprised.

[SpyreX]

Actually I think my interests are going to be very similiar regardless of his flip (because, regardless, scum are gonna jump the hell on this wagon).

MBF
Snow White
Poro

There is a couple conditionals that I don't want to go into detail until this is resolved (and I'm confident if I am killed they will resolve themselves).

[SpyreX]

The issue, and why Ray has to go, isn't that it was "bad" play. It was -scummy- play.

If Ray hadn't been a major contestant yesterday and didn't have people clamoring for his lynch and dropped a surprise hammer it might be a bit different.

As is, no way. This has to go without some truly, TRULY, compelling argument against.

[SpyreX]

But, lol, reactions aside: what result was he looking for that couldn't have been gotten throwing that gambit out AFTER a claim?

Or... hell, what good does that do overall?

One thing it does, and I guarantee unless RF was a super-space-hypercharger-unlimited dayvig is guarantee that he's not dying regardless of his alignment. Ever.

And I don't like that one bit.

[SpyreX]

I haven't ignored it but this HAS TO HAPPEN.

It was a gambit that had minimum town-upside and a whole fat gangster amount of scum-upside and it was lol, reactions ffs.

No.

[SpyreX]

I'm still more than a little flummoxed at this lynch not going through yet.

Its starting to give me the heebie jeebies.

[SpyreX]

I'll give you that some of whats been going on is BERRY INTERESTINGS (especially the mbf/you little discussion) but.

[SpyreX]

AGOTI being IAUN is truly beautiful.

Yea, you're right a huge part of me thinks RF could be mr crash and burn town. But, I can't shake how absolutely scummy that is.

[SpyreX]

OHH HAY LOOK AT THAT

*grumble*

[SpyreX]

My only real gripe is - tighten up the deadlines. This game seemed to just drag and drag on as it went.

[SpyreX]

I really wish I could have pushed the MBF case harder - if he had flipped Usurper well.

[SpyreX]

Ohh Rhinox's hardline on MBF made this pretty much a no brainer. That part was played perfectly.

(Of course the simple fact that it happened that way which AGOTI was saying and then ?? birds because that day was tooo long but)