California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[Talilan]

Talilan, please explain these two quotes. They seem quite contradictory to each other. How do you reconcile "Glork was right so he's scum" with "I was right, so I'm protown"?

Your reasoning was scummy. Also just from a theoretical perspective anyway if you think a behaviour you happen to have committed at some point as town is more likely to come from scum than town (more likely means not conclusively, obviously), it's still a valid scum-tell. Although again that's not relevant here because is there is the relevant difference of your reasoning being scummy.

- ortolan

[Talilan]

I'd like to discuss Talilan wanting "push" most of the day and then changing their mind for no apparent reason to "don't push." It had the effect of convincing people to push and then jumping ship before they had to take the blame.

Calling that scummy is just dumb. Not only because it resulted in choosing the correct choice (so it's basically a "too townie" attack) but because if anything wavering on your choice then changing your mind is very consistent with being town, seeing as the only thing you have going for you is other people's reactions. Being sure of what to do from the outset would just be completely scummy when there's objectively nothing to favour either of the two options without seeing other people's reactions.

Plus it's just a really illogical and scummy line of argument to say

"well you switched to the correct choice...which (presumably deliberately) caused everyone else to switch to the other choice"

not only is this, as far as I'm aware, not factually true (I don't explicitly recall anyone switching to "pushing the button" because Talilan "switched to not pushing the button"), but calling that scummy is like saying "well you started voting the scum...which caused people to unvote the scum; therefore you're scum".

- ortolan

[Talilan]

How long til scene starts? Anyone know?

Still getting caught up but I'm finding that my views on who are scum and who aren't are solidifying as I read. Hopefully this is a good thing.

-Tals

[Talilan]

Thesp, this is from a few pages back, and your point is noted about too much posting - but did YOU (after criticising Gaspar for condescension earlier in the game) have to refer to our posting twice as "diarrhea"? If that aint condescension, I dunno what is.

As for you feeling like we have 5-10 posts on every page, a quick check shows we have 202 posts in this thread, compared with G&B on 193 and Gaspar on 223 posts. I know for a fact that since pretty early on ortolan has tried to reduce his posting, and has cut out WOTs and PBPAs. It's really frustrating when someone is trying to do the right thing but nothing is good enough.

I am sorry this post is not about scum-hunting or strategy and I can hopefully move on now I got a couple things off my chest. But my number 1 priority is an enjoyable game (for myself and others).

~T

[Talilan]

Elvis et al... I can't answer why ortolan changed from push to not push, but you do realise we were working with extremely little information, right? A mouse could've twitched a whisker and the resulting breeze could've been enough to sway any townie to switch. Like ortolan has said, town had NO reason to be stuck hard on either option.

I only managed to turn up near deadline, and was happy with ort's vote. Gave 3 reasons in my on screen post 788 and was actually kinda hoping I might influence a couple others to vote with me, but at the same time I didn't want to be too.. confident? forceful? in case I was wrong.

[Talilan]

Mighty Orbots & VP Baltar and anyone else who thinks our mispost could have been intentional

This is really amazing me. Let me get this straight. Are you guys saying that you think we intentionally posted in the wrong thread, and that it was a strategic scum move. Because that is what I keep reading, but I can't actually believe it. You are accusing us of intentional cheating in this game. If you're town and you're serious, please consider the ramifications to the reputations of 2 established mafiascum members. If you're scum, this kind of strategy is really not cool.

Don't dance around it, because if I'm being accused of cheating I want it expressed openly. If you're not willing to say, "Talilan, I think you intentionally cheated in this game", then do me a favour and acknowledge that mistakes happen, and although we made a big one, it could've happened to anyone.

[Talilan]

Annnd... they're both on-stage now.

Just saw off-stage player list. This should be fun.

[Talilan]

CKD: People want you fired. What happened? Did you intend to leave us with no way to send a message on-stage?

[Talilan]

ckd: what was it you posted on-stage by accident?

I'm not convinced firing ckd immediately is the next course of action tbh, hehehehe. I suspect the scum have the facility to change his choices around.

Just for the record, at this point in the game I think VP Baltar is extremely obviously town, and hewitt very likely is too. And Thok 'n' Thesp are still scum. I dunno what Orbots being made an advocate means, but it very likely makes him scum. I think I was one of the only people attacking him and the scum probably assumed no-one would pay any attention to what I had to say (which is why I'm surprised he was made advocate). Still, I still feel he is scummy also. Pity we only get 3 more lynches

Anyway, I don't see any reason to delay.

Vote: Gaspar

[Talilan]

CKD, I (Talitha) actually believe you, and have for a while. That's why you're still in the job. We're going to look pretty bad if you're actually scum, but we've chosen to risk it.

I don't like the mob that's getting all wound up about CKD... must fire NOW, must die NOW. I'm not saying I won't fire him, I'm saying let's take a step back and think about it. Do people really trust me more than they trust CKD? Will we paint the AP into more of a corner?

Does the scum simply making MO the advocate mean that he must be onstage?

~Talitha (cross post with ort's post above)

[Talilan]

if the scums can indeed change CKD's choices, and I am scum, then why did they put ME in a position to be lynched rather than someone else, like Talilan or DGB?

.... because Talilan and DGB are both possible townie lynches?

Pardon me Gaspar, your alignment is showing.

~T

[Talilan]

That wasn't very clear. My point is that Gaspar's question implies that he knows DGB & I are both town.

[Talilan]

Gaspar, I don't believe you're the AP. If the real AP is here I'd rather they not counterclaim. You're a scum who has found himself surrounded by unfriendlies and you think you're going to die. Therefore you're going to try and do as much damage as possible first.

I'll quote my favouritest mith mafia quote (and hope I get it right)....
"Lynch or lynch not. There is no claim."

[Talilan]

WHY, for heavens sake, would the AP act like someone who "wants someone/everyone to think that he is the AP"?

[Talilan]

"I am confirmed innocent" is NOT a breadcrumb.

[Talilan]

Glork, I will always lose in an argument to you, regardless of who is actually right or wrong. Sad for me, but that's just a fact.

I've said my bit. There's no way you're the AP. The soft-claim and the timing reinforces my views.

Even if you were the AP which is a possibility which many will feel they must consider, I'm sure the scum will have saved a kill just for you. So, if you're not lynched, you'd be dead before endgame anyway. Lynching you now is not a loss.

~Tals

[Talilan]

Your point is only relevant if the majority here believe you're telling the truth.
My point is that if we think you're scum, we shouldn't be frightened of lynching you due to the small risk we're lynching the AP.

[Talilan]

tbh Glork I see absolutely no possibility that you are the Assistant Producer (and are therefore town). I see absolutely no reason why you would spend all your effort attacking us and then appoint us to the powerful position of assistant director (see post 873). I think you are just fishing for the AP now.

If you want to keep up "well I miiiight be the AP", can you give any reason why you might have chosen us to be assistant director if you WERE the AP?

- ortolan

[Talilan]

So what's your opinion on the recent events with Gaspar, hewitt?

And what's your answer to his question about what you would do if he claims he's the confirmed innocent AP?

~tal

[Talilan]

Just in case you guys aren't aware, when the AP dies he will point a new AP. So yes, it is very much in scum's interests to kill whoever started the game as the AP, and after they do it is eminently possible for the role to fall into scum's hands.

And I agree with Pooky, the only thing that could come close to verifying Gaspar aren't any crumbs he himself might have posted; it's only if he can explain the AP's actions as coming from him (which as I said looks pretty much impossible with the way and timing for example he made us the assistant director- which was why I was skeptical from the first time he started softclaiming).

[Talilan]

If you believe Gaspar could be the AP you'd also have to believe that both Glork AND elvis did not understand (or chose to ignore) the stuntman picture that was posted, as well as BOTH missing or ignoring Sotty's very clear request for a stuntman to be appointed (Sotty's post was 12 October, Glork posted he was back on 10 October).

~Tals

[Talilan]

We can fire CKD as a signal if that's what people want. I guess it would be useful if we make an early lynch. But I'm not sure it's necessary to send a signal onstage. IIRC the scene is a max of 2 weeks long. They should just vote with condorcets and wait for deadline.

~T

[Talilan]

I just got suddenly paranoid that the scum might have an ability to fire a director also.

Unless Glorky can provide a good explanation for him being the AP (and if he can't then pretending to be the AP without directly claiming it is obv-scum and serves no town purpose) I would honestly not mind a reasonably quick lynch. He has nine lives y' know. And I'm wary of any shenanigans from on-screen to get him out of the firing line (e.g. Thok's suggestion we could fire ckd in order that they do what they're already supposed to).

[Talilan]

Btw I definitely support the on-stage decision of tequila

- ortolan (both posts)

[Talilan]

I wonder if anyone has OSCAR as their secret word?

That is the theme of this game, you know... The innocents have them, the non-innocents want them.

At least that has been my theory right from the start and seems to be confirmed by every death so far.

~Tals

[Talilan]

How so?

[Talilan]

If you're wondering why I brought it up now, it's because I think it's true and I think town needs to form a clearer picture of who the scum are, without the big SMG vs Scientologists distraction.

I believe KY Krew was part of a mafia team.. it's the only logical explanation for his behaviour. If I'm wrong about Oscars and we're up against the scientologist team, that would make CKD a liar... but that behaviour as scum (claiming something easily falsifiable) doesn't make sense either.

I've said before, why would the mod go to such pains to hide the identity of the scum team, if they were going to be exposed by the flip the first time one of the team dies. Tom Cruise is a scientologist, but he is also an Oscar winner wannabe.

[Talilan]

Why?

[Talilan]

Gaspar: Oscar winners vs Non Oscar winning scientologists doesn't really make sense to me in a Los Angeles theme game. How many of those scientologists have been nominated for an Oscar but missed out? That's the kind of rage we're dealing with here!

StarKiss: Sorry if I am suspicious, but it seems like both the scums here really want to know my word.. so, I'll keep it to myself I think!

~Tals

[Talilan]

mith's a tricky mod. Are you saying you don't think Oscar winners are the innocent group?

[Talilan]

OK so the scum COULD be both scientologists and oscar nominees who have missed out. Kinda shaky flavour-wise, but whatever.

I'm still want elvis-par to explain for what

reason

she is "saying what is plainly obvious". It's pretty clear that 'Innocent Waitress' is one of those roles that good mods include to prevent a mass-claim helping the town. Go check out the San Francisco California game if you want to see other examples of role anomolies in mith games.

~T

[Talilan]

AAt any rate, of course I'm not the AP. If I were, I would have hard-claimed to be straight away.

Exactly. Lynch please.

The purpose of my breadcrumbing was simple. I wanted to try to bait the scums into thinking I was the AP, in order to force them to use a kill on me. If I were to make the scums think that I'm the AP, they would have had to debate whether to spend a kill on me early, or force me to claim and spend a kill on me later.

Ha Ha Ha. You have difficulties getting night-killed as town do you, so you thought you needed some assistance?

Obviously, the scums didn't off me right away, so this leaves three possibilities. Either the scums did notice and elected not to nightkill me, everyone who noticed is protown, or nobody noticed.

Or we could go with the far more parsimonious explanation that you are scum, and that scum aren't going to kill members of their own team.

As far as I'm concerned Gaspar is claimed scum at this point. I'm surprised no-one is attacking him for his obv-scum claimed attempt at baiting night-kills- as though he somehow would need help getting night-killed if he was pro-town (and think about how concerned he's been about his survival during the game otherwise).

Note he has tried to change the tangent of discussion by softclaiming AP then withdrawing the claim (and the most likely outcome of that is...outing the real AP). I don't like his attacks against ckd. He's clearly scum. This stuff about secret words is just yet another desperate ploy to avoid being lynched.

- ortolan

[Talilan]

Wouldn't you want to last every last bit of distancing, information, etc, before lynching him? What's the hurry?

Mmm. I find myself actually vaguely suspecting ckd-Gaspar busing but I'm probably wrong because the scum have seemingly done their utmost to paint ckd in a bad light the whole game. Then again it's possible he's been redirecting the choices of his own accord and put us in a dilemma between him and Gaspar and we would lynch one and the other would look pro-town thereafter. Apart from that I think what Gaspar says is too tainted with WIFOM before he is lynched. The one thing I am 100% sure of is that Gaspar is scum, irrespective of ckd's alignment.

Because you know, Talilan, that would really go against your Gaspar-is-scum theory.

You're right. Unless Gaspar is lying, that is. All the more reason to drop the theory. Do you think mith just makes broken games for fun, btw, or do you think it's just a teensy bit possible these secret words are just 100% useless?

But if KY had a secret word

Again, why is it even remotely plausible that the game would be breakable by a mass-claim?

- ortolan

[Talilan]

The words might not be useless this time. Look at the people who have been asking for the words. I worry they might help scum find the AP or something. THIS game I think we should keep them to ourselves.

~Tal

[Talilan]

Alright, enough.

Too much Gaspar, Talilan and Baloons.

Too little Pooky, hewitt & CKD.

[Talilan]

But, out of curiousity, if our secret words are so unimportant, why don't you want to claim yours??

I suspect they are utterly useless for catching scum, but they may be helpful to the scum (or more likely they are just outright useless).

So you're trying to argue that it's impossible that mith intended for secret words to help town recognize each other, but maybe he intended them to help scum find the AP?

So maybe secret words are there to hurt us?

Talk about a REEEEAAAACCCCCHHH.

I don't think this is that implausible. The fact that if the secret words helped town means they could be easily exploited coupled with the scumminess of the people asking for secret words mean I think it is more likely that the secret words help scum than they do town; but beyond that I think it's more likely they are completely useless than anything else.

Secondly, I wanted to bait the scums because I think that having them blow a kill on me could be better than killing certain other players.

Which other players?

Gaspar: why did you even bring attention to your breadcrumbs to begin with? Is it just so that you could "clear" Thok?

- ortolan

[Talilan]

I'd like to know how they feel about scientologists vs. smg vs. endgame descriptions that call for only one [something else] allignment.

Basically, we need more info. It's possible all the scum have different "factions" e.g. one is a scientologist, the others are all different things. Basically I'm waiting to see whether you flip Scientologist or just another type of scum entirely.

- ortolan

[Talilan]

the same thing I'll do when I spontaneously turn into a frog

[Talilan]

Hewitt, I appreciate the idea that it's not good to let big question marks go to endgame. But we need to lynch some scum today because we've only lynched one so far. We don't want to risk getting down to 5 innocents and end up in worst possible end game. And while Pooky might be scum, he might also be innocent.

We have here a very good player who also happens to be unquestionably scum. There is no way a town Gaspar would have pulled these AP shenanigans. You've acknowledged the tricks yourself - townies don't pull tricks like this. Do we really want Gaspar going to endgame along with a group of townies that he has handpicked as most easily persuaded by his smooth talking?

~Tals

[Talilan]

um....well there's two problems with that

firstly if you're sure he's scum then lynching him rather than a possible (probable) innocent ensures we don't get closer to the worst-endgame-for-innocents, and we get closer to the worst-endgame-for-scum

secondly while you think he's obv-scum, he's not to a lot of people, so they will still be liable to trust him in end-game.

so if you genuinely believe he is scum, you should definitely be voting him. you can vote someone else tomorrow after you've lynched the obv-scum.

If you do think Gaspar is scum, it is not rational not to vote him today.

- ortolan

[Talilan]

If Gaspar flipped scum would you still think the same of Pooky? How about if Gaspar flipped town?

[Talilan]

the suspense is killing me, particularly as Gaspar is doing a very good job at looking earnest now

- ortolan

[Talilan]

When we flip town, will you change your avatar to a frog for a month? And not this alt, but your main account.

Do we have a deal?

I know some very nice frogs thank you very much

Talilan, thinking of hewitt's vote shenanigans, if we killed hewitt, and hewitt flipped scum, would that nearly confirm Gaspar as town, and Pooky as hewitt's buddy?

Your approach involves not lynching Gaspar ergo *lalalalallalalala I'm not listening*

[Talilan]

When I was considering Gaspar's posts as earnest, I must have forgotten he had (effectively) fakeclaimed AP...====================[]

[Talilan]

who are your buddies?

[Talilan]

Oh, sorry. Thok and Thesp think we should night-kill Goofballs 'n' Balloons. Personally I'd rather go for Pooky. PZ hasn't posted in a while.

[Talilan]

this is why events unnerve me

[Talilan]

Could people either agree or point out flaws in my "Talilan fires CKD to signal that they've just lynched somebody" plan?

What does not add up? Thok fails to consider that we might actually have lynched ckd. In which case we couldn't fire them in order to give them the signal.

That's because Thok's being kept up to date with the goings on off-stage and knows ckd's lynch ain't happening.

[Talilan]

VP Baltar isn't considering it, either.

VP's looking OK though, because he's wanting CKD fired immediately, not as a signal that the lynch has happened.

I agree it looks a bit suspicious for Thok, though.

~T

[Talilan]

I am actually genuinely considering that ckd may be scum along with Gaspar now. I'm not sure if the ability I'd previously considered the scum to have (switch the assistant director's choices around) is actually balanced. If they have it they seem to have the ability to use it at least twice now. Also, considering the scum already get to choose not only who the advocates are but the choices themselves, plus the scum themselves could end up in the director role; it seems rather unbalanced for the scum to also be able to change a town director's choices. That said I'm still convinced Gaspar is scum- breadcrumbing being the AP just proves it conclusively for me. Thus I'm very strongly considering that ckd kept himself-scum and Gaspar-scum off the stage under the assumption we would lynch one and the other would be cleared. Perhaps it's also why some of the scummier players on-stage seem so sure ckd is scum without having considered what I did- that he had his choices manipulated by the scum. They know he didn't, because they are scum with him.

- ortolan

[Talilan]

I agree it's not balanced if scum can do whatever they want with the director's choices.

But if CKD is telling the truth, are the scum switching the choices around, or are they simply choosing advocate(s) who are lined up to be off-stage and thus forcing these people to be onstage?

~Tal

[Talilan]

I'm calling CKD as town, btw. (Re-read his crone vs mother play... IMO it just stinks of town). Don't mind firing him though, to save a big distracting argument when the on-stage contigent return.

Hewitt scares me a little (maybe it's the avatar?) but I think he's town. I've spent most of the game thinking DGB is obv town, but something is worrying me. StarKiss is scum - right StarKiss? Pooky is delectable. I think I covered everyone here.

~Tal

[Talilan]

Sorry for multi-posting. I just caught up with this post from (I assume) DGB and wanted to respond.

Why would someone vote off-wagon, for a player they don't think has the remotest chance of being lynched (Pooky), while saying they want the vote leader (Gaspar) to die?

The first thing that popped into my mind, I must confess, is that hewitt is scum. I'm not too sure which way he's trying to swing, but it sure sounds like someone edging his bets.

My initial response to Hewitt's off-wagon vote was the same as yours. But then I read more closely his thinking around it and I kinda related to him as a player who is really thinking towards end-game from a town perspective. I've had similar thoughts (but don't think I've actually voiced them) that it might be good play lynch the biggest question marks, rather than the most likely scums.
I havent actively pursued this yet because
- I'm not convinced that we're completely out of danger of worst endgame scenario, and
- I'm not convinced that lynching a question mark who turns out to be town gives as good information as lynching a likely scum and knowing for sure they are scum.
But I do relate to to the idea.

~Tal

[Talilan]

Gas flips town

I honestly don't see this happening. I'm not sure what it would make me think of you.

Gas flips Sci
Gas flips mafia

I think there's only one scum faction, and I'd probably go with what Tali said. I have thought you were town for almost the whole game ckd especially as the way your choices got swapped around seemed very convenient to make you look scummy. That said I was considering why you and Gaspar would be left off-stage by the scum, assuming Gaspar actually is scum. Then again, perhaps it was simply because the scum were hoping you would get lynched instead of him.

the AP fake breadcrumb is just not credible coming from Glork. I'd be interested if there's any precedents where you've done something like that previously, because it seems to be extremely out-of-character play for you.

- ortolan

[Talilan]

LOL

I'll bite. How is it "out of character" for me?

I just see you dropping breadcrumbs to protect a power role as bizarre frankly. And the whole way you went about revealing them e.g. "hey so did you guys notice all those crumbs I left" didn't seem like it could legitimately give the town any info, despite what you claimed.

[Talilan]

I just figured something out, and it's very, very bad. ortolan see QT. What happens now?
Nice work, scumbags.

~Talitha

[Talilan]

Hewitt, StarKiss is as good as claimed scum. He's scum, scum, scum. I'm hoping that a majority of players can agree on this so we don't have to waste a lynch on him.


I believe the scum have figured out who the AP is, and that person will die soon. I'm waiting to hear back from ortolan about what (if anything) we can/should do about it.

~T

[Talilan]

DGB: Maybe the scum are hoping we'll lynch him/her so they don't have to waste their precious kills? I don't know if we can count on that, though. If they think they might get their hands on the AP's job they will surely move quickly.

If there's a chance the scum will get their hands on the AP job shortly, we need to play today smart, especially if CKD is getting fired and jobs are shuffling. We need Gaspar lynched first, because on-stage might see it as a signal to end the day. Then we need to hope that the AP is paying attention and appoints a likely innocent to our job, before the on-stagers end the day.

I'm really sad Pooky struck out, but Hewitt is right, an alignment flip would be the best thing we could get out of it right now. But mith will treat it unbiasly and seek a replacement first like he has for each strike-out.

~Tal

[Talilan]

No it isn't scummy. Even the mod says in the game setup info (and I paraphrase):

Because of the kind of game this is, replacements will not be waited for forever. Modkills won't hurt as much in this game as they would hurt the balance in a normal game.

[Talilan]

StarKiss: You tell me why you're NOT scum. What have you done for the town this game? Why haven't you ever denied being scum? If you're tired of "this shit", why have you taken SO long to stick up for yourself? BTW, are you a little sore your buddies decided you are one of the expendable scum? I would be too.

Why aren't you voting? I guess it sucks when the 3 choices are your buddy, the dude your buddy is voting for, and yourself.


Can we kill Glork yet?

~Talitha

[Talilan]

And by Glork, I of course mean the angelic Gaspafarian, incorporating elvis also. Apologies elvis.

[Talilan]

Are you saying that you not helping to lynch ANYONE has assisted the town? How so?

For someone who is not particularly interested in this game or in lynching anyone, why did you bother to try and get other players to give out their secret words?

~Talitha

[Talilan]

Oh sorry, I didn't think your "WTF does this mean?" regarding my comment that you are "scum, scum, scum" was worthy of a reply!

But I'm happy to compromise. If other people don't agree with me about how obv scum you are, I'll happily lynch you instead of letting you go to endgame.


BTW, that was your first ever vote for a player in this game... Congrats, and I'm honoured to be the recipient.

~T

[Talilan]

Are you taking about the quote you have quoted there, or the quote about letting you go to endgame?

Either way it wasn't any kind of slip. I'm thinking that you are scum who WON'T be picked for endgame because you're under a lot of suspicion. But if I'm wrong, the scum might choose you for endgame after all - and if there is that much doubt about your alignment then you should probably be lynched (because that would make you the scummiest question mark).

And yes, when we only have 2 (?) lynches left after today, lynching someone that everyone agrees is scum would be a waste.

~Talitha

[Talilan]

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO don't unvote Gaspar he's been saved enough times already

I bet Pooky was town

I have to admit I'm not actually sure of why StarKiss is scum. But yer Gaspar needs to die

- ortolan

[Talilan]

Do you guys ever have the experience of playing a game of mafia, getting to around Day 4 or so and suddenly a few pieces of the jigsaw start to come together, a picture starts to form, and things begin to fall into place. The way you are playing the game starts to change because suddenly you KNOW things, and can't comprehend how others can't see it. You can't explain it very well though, because the picture in your mind is only a product of tiny little game pieces... but it's an example of the Gestalt effect where the "whole is greater than the sum of the parts". You get over-excited, over-eager and then incredibly frustrated at the scum being SO greasy and the town SO obtuse. Well yeah, this is my experience right now.

Hewitt, DGB has just unvoted Gaspar. The charms have worked, and will work on others. You know Gaspar is scum. PLEASE help us lynch him. The fact that you are not helping us lynch him means I will shortly be forced to reconsider my slight-town read of you.

DGB: You're being played like a played thing. Hint: Gaspar knows you are town. What makes you think CKD scum? I believe is lynch bait due to trying to help the town early on. Remember this is a themed mith game - the last game had dead players still playing, who knows what is going on here? (Well I think I know, but can't prove it). But things are surely not as simple as 'CKD said there was a SMG, and we got a scientologist, so CKD is scum'. We NEED another dead scum before we can figure out exactly what is going on.
What makes you decide that I'm scum NOW? What makes you bring up "not wanting to worry about more than one scum faction" in relation to suspecting us? As I've stated, I'm pretty sure there is only one.


~Talitha

[Talilan]

I'm glad you are now participating in the game Dram & Kise. Up til recently you haven't been trying. Today is the first day you have even voted, and the only conclusion I could make about you is that you were scum and cruising. I admit that my confidence in your scum alignment is mainly backed by very strong feelings, and not with a multitude of facts, but you hardly ever have that kind of hard evidence in mafia.

Thank you for saying that your vote is now in a better place. I'm sure you do know that it is!

~Tal

[Talilan]

OK. Any objections to me firing CKD? I don't really like doing it because as you know I think he's town. (ortolan is slightly suspicious of him, though.) But I can see a couple of benefits in going through with the firing, and not so much down-side.

StarKiss, there is absolutely a case against you. E.g. You not helping the town to lynch ANYONE. Your onstage voting. Your demeanor. I just do not have the energy to make the case right now when we're lynching Gaspar. If you are town (and I really hope you're not) please turn it around and prove me wrong. There's not much time left, and you are quite right that if town you would be a big piece of lynch-bait in endgame.

~Tal

[Talilan]

Re: not wasting a lynch on you, I'm sorry for not making myself clear. We only have 2 lynches left, right? I made a couple of assumptions. I assumed
1. That you are scum
2. That you are too suspicious-looking for scum to pick as one of their two representatives in endgame
Therefore lynching you would be a waste of the 2 precious lynches we have left. I realise I am making big assumptions but I'm just calling the game like I see it.


As for your 2351, you realise that lynching is the town's main (only?) weapon, right? Townies typically really want to lynch scum. Scum don't care so much who gets lynched as long as it's not them. You very much resemble the latter.

~Tal

[Talilan]

OK I made an executive decision and we are Donald Trumping. (Request sent). Hoping it will be announced on-stage so we can end scene, see Pooky's flip, see Gaspar's flip and move on.

~T

[Talilan]

meh, I'm still hoping Gaspar flips scum, I don't really feel bad about the way I've played this game Tbh

- ortolan

[Talilan]

Gaspar is town? That's it. ortolan, we're resigning from the game.
~Tal

[Talilan]

ortolan has (I think) a good plan for onstage number questions. I'm not sure if he wanted to wait until onstage to talk about it. I'll wait and see if he's around before copy/pasting from the QT.

~Tal

[Talilan]

Fair question, I'm still a little bit stunned frankly (mainly about Gaspar, not tooo surprised about Pooks) and doubting all my previous opinions. It might take me a little while to get my confidence back.

Kinda surprised at another scientologist, though. But it seems pretty clear that whatever CKD says, the scientologists ARE the mafia... right? I still don't think CKD is lying, but I do have to start to consider that possibility. If he's scum, there must have been some incentive for him to say that there's a SMG, but I can't figure it out. Also have to consider that the mod might be evil (not as in scum in this game, just evil in general!).

I'll get back to you on who I think the scum is when everything has sunk in.

~Tal

[Talilan]

Hi, I haven't read, I don't really have anything to say about Glork but...ugh

sorry to Glork and elvis I guess

anyhows I thought up two good ideas, one which I ran by Talitha earlier and the second...uh yeah I'm a bit unsure on it but I'll go ahead

I had this idea that all the advocates pick a number totally at random, and ask "is ~insert number~ very good, good or neutral?". There's a 3/5 chance of getting a correct answer in which case, if we trust them, if we pick the number they chose, then we will at worst get a neutral and at best get a very good outcome. To me it seems better than people just randomly choosing likely useless questions. Does that sound like a g00d id3@ guyth?????

The second idea...well, well does anyone remember how ehobanohar went down? hehe.

- ortolan

[Talilan]

actually scratch that, we only have two lynches to punish non-compliers anyway and getting modkilled isn't exactly desirable. Oh well at least I came up with one (possibly) good idea.

[Talilan]

It looks to me like you can accomplish the same thing?

Does the set {7,8,9,10,11} have the property that the highest number in the set is either very good, good, or neutral?

[Talilan]

maybe you can explain why you're "not too surprised" about his flip

Because of his onstage voting record (which I talked about as reason to think he's scum in post 1919 of this thread).
~Tal

[Talilan]

Seeing as there's no advocate, I am fine with discussing and agreeing as a group on the picks.

T

[Talilan]

VP Baltar: I feel merely like a huge victim of hubris. Everyone knows we are town, but that we were gigantically mistaken about both elmosaurian and Gaspar. As I said in our QT, Gaspar conformed to a whole bunch of subjective scum-tells for me. Thus I feel pretty bad about him flipping town. I put it down to having essentially no prior knowledge of Glork's playstyle. Furthermore in terms of our scumreads, even if we were sufficiently motivated to give them (which seems unlikely given the present turn of events), I'm not entirely sure we'd be sufficiently trusted if we did (independently of whether we are considered to be scum or town).

I honestly am not really sure about ckd.

- ortolan

[Talilan]

I honestly wouldn't care VP Baltar, I feel pretty discredited as a player. Like, if anyone in this game said "well, why should we trust your reads?" I could say oh well...I was wrong about Yos...I was wrong about Gaspar." I feel it is more effective to just admit I am clearly very ineffectual at developing reads in the context of this game and move on. I am still, sadly, wary of being lynched as town and contributing to yet another town mislynch. So I'll just keep quiet for the time being. I might tunnel on Thok for being aware ahead of time that Glork was town, or I might tunnel on Thesp for his lack of contribution the whole game (and that we've found him scummy), and that Glork found him scummy before dying. But Yos also found Glork scummy before being lynched. Ultimately I've little to back any reads up but a string of incorrect assumptions which have thus far proved wrong. If Gaspar is town then I honestly have no clues as to who the scum are and honestly am reluctant to provide any reads anyway for fear of jeopardising the town further.

- ortolan

[Talilan]

CKD, what kind of group do you think the scientologists are if not a mafia? From your perspective, why must there be a mafia AS WELL as a group of scientologists? Why can't the scientologists BE the screen mafia guild... they are all actors, right? Ever think that maybe mith didn't want to put the real name of the scum-group into the hands of a townie, in case that townie chose not to join them?

Everyone else: If CKD is scum, why was he SO absolutely against driving in Scene 1? If CKD's information is totally made up, why did we have two advocates in Scene 1? There were only two possible choices and both were told, in effect, the same thing (that the good choice was follow valentine). It seems like overkill unless there was something else going on in that scene.

I can see why people think CKD needs to die, I really can. I just hate to lynch someone I think of as town. Not for sentimental reasons, but for opportunity lost. I want to lynch scum.

I guess if a majority of people think CKD is scum then he has to, and will die. I just don't like it.

~Tal

[Talilan]

Just also do me a favour and check out post 2 of this thread where the the theme of the game is mentioned, and a link to Academy Award winners is posted. Then google 'Screen Actors Guild' or read their wikipedia page.

Then consider the fact that

our scum group is seemingly composed of scientologists.

What's more likely...
1. that a mod who put red herrings into the Game Information ALSO gave a matching red herring to one of the townies, OR
2. that a scum decided to claim he received a message from a scum group who doesnt exist, knowing he would be proven a liar

The only other possibility I see is 3. scum were given some hidden incentive to make the claim about SMG. But if you consider CKD's behaviour as a whole #1. definitely looks most likely.

So people who want to lynch CKD need to provide more of a reason to lynch him rather than just "there is no SMG" or "he will be bad to take to endgame". If you're worried about endgame, let's thrash the CKD issue out now, and if he goes to endgame it will at least be after a thorough discussion of why he is or isn't scum. If he's scummy, fine, kill him. But let's not lynch based on ONE dodgy piece of game information that has not actively hurt the town in any meaningful way.

(StarKiss, I saw that you want a question answered.. Sorry, I'll go back and find it soon, have to make dinner now.)

~Tal

[Talilan]

CKD has repeatedly said he wants to die so we know he was telling the truth. I'm sorry but I've played a LOT of mafia games and I've never seen a scum who wanted to die as badly as CKD wants to die.

Explain to me how putting the stuntman onstage was a scum move? What is the scum motivation there?

[Talilan]

I'm flattered, but why don't you want to lynch CKD like everyone else does, Kise?

[Talilan]

So onstage for the Boat scene we have:
- Hewitt
- VP
and 5 others. Any volunteers for the numbers puzzle?

If no-one dies between scenes there will only be 5 people offstage. Sounds like CKD will be offstage due to popular request, including his own.
Personally I would like the stuntman off-stage, because I'd like Hewitt able to be reached for a lynch. (Have spent a bit of time tonight going over his posts in particular, mainly due to Gaspar's death list and DGB's observations. And I now agree, he is a very good candidate for scum.)

So this is a reminder that we need a stuntman to be appointed.

~Tal

[Talilan]

Since everyone is here, please provide answers for these:

1) What do you think of CKD's offer/sacrifice?
2) Do you believe in the Screen Mafia Guild and why/why not?

1)I don't think CKD has acted like scum in this game. He's taken risks, not minded being in the spotlight, posted lots of content, etc. Now he's trying his best to get lynched. He is acting the opposite I would expect from scum, so either he is town or it's a performance deserving of an Oscar.
2) Yeah, but I think the scientologists are part of it, or are it.

I want to believe. There were 2 kills during pre-scene 3. Need to know whether it was two anti-town factions, or Scientologist + other killing role.

IIRC, in other games that mith has modded the mafia were given a certain number of kills that they could use on any night. I am assuming it's somthing similar in this game. The mafia might have 3 kills to use at anytime (don't know - just guessing) and chose to use 2 at once.

~Tal

[Talilan]

Hewitt, Count De Morcef (that's you) has to be onstage for the next scene along with Carrie Fisher (VP).

Here's my initial stab at a list:

On camera:
1. Thok
2. Talilan
3. Shadow Lurker
4. G&B
5. StarKiss
(6) Hewitt (must be there)
(7) VP (Must be there)

Assuming nothing gets messed with that would leave offstage:
1. CKD
2. Sotty
3. MO
4. Thesp
5. zu_Faul

Comments, suggestions?

~Tal

[Talilan]

Just an idea but CKD could simply stop posting and attempt suicide by mod. I'm not sure if I would frown on this kind of tactic as a mod... I might... but the game function exists and we should be trying to get every advantage. Then we'd still be able to lynch someone else.
What is the downside?
The risk that CKD is town and we also lynch a townie which would put us closer to the dreaded 5 innocents left and trigger worst end-game.
The risk that a replacement becomes available.
The upside is we don't waste one of our 2 remaining lynches.

~Tal

[Talilan]

Doesn't

anyone

care about hitting scum with the last 2 lynches?

~Tal

[Talilan]

You know, I really thought CKD would at least

consider

the suicide idea if he were town.

Just makes me feel a tiny bit better about lynching him, is all.

~Tal

[Talilan]

That's worked really well so far hasn't it?

The question is why aren't YOU concerned with it?

(Waiting for further opinions about switching Sotty and StarKiss)

~Tal

[Talilan]

Just bear in mind that the offstage game is not unimportant though. Any more scum that we can have dead and revealed before endgame will be invaluable information, AND cut down scum's options for endgame. (Remember that the players not chosen for endgame don't get their alignments revealed.)

I don't know why, but I've been feeling a little better about StarKiss since they've been participating in the game more. I'm not thinking they are town, but I've at least got an open mind about it.

I'm reasonably happy with Sotty's play and wanted one person like that left offstage. I don't trust MO or zu_Faul, and Thesp is having trouble keeping up with the game.

~Tal

[Talilan]

Want to lecture me on spirit of the game? Answer me this question: Are you scum, CKD?

[Talilan]

As is yours. I'll drop it.

~Tal

[Talilan]

I just wanted to point out that we've only lynched one scum so far, the other got modkilled. So if lynching wrong 6/7 times combined with the modkill puts town in auto-bad-endgame that's not going to be good.

[Talilan]

sorry I meant if lynching wrong 6/7 times, combined with the scumkill*

- ortolan

[Talilan]

Thok, good point about stunt man. If a stunt man were appointed right now, do you know if we would find out immediately? It would really help finalise the onstage/offstage names.


Re: CKD and the modkill... The reason I'm considering it might be a fair game strategy is because it crossed my mind that Pooky might have done it. This probably isn't true but it got me to thinking.... scum could also easily use the strategy in this game to sacrifice one of their own if they thought it would help them win. Maybe even just innocuously letting themselves be careless and not hurrying home to post before the 72 hours.

So if scum could do it with no consequences (and I am not accusing Pooky of this, just saying it is possible) the town should be able to as well. As a mod you want to be fair to both sides. You also have to recognise that there will always be players who will get as close as they can to the boundaries to try and win the game - and that's not their fault, it's the nature of human beings in a competition.

(Anyway this is probably more of a discussion for MD after the game - CKD doesn't feel cool with it, and that is fair enough.)

~Tal

[Talilan]

btw, if ckd is scum then the scum would have needed to start with at least 6 players. How likely do people think this is?

- ortolan

[Talilan]

OK should I send the list as it was initially posted?... unless anyone likes my most recent crazy idea:

Switch CKD & StarKiss. Put StarKiss offstage and CKD onstage. If the (confirmed innocent) AP wants CKD lynched s/he can make CKD the stuntman. CKD if made the stuntman will have to stunt after asking his question. If he doesn't he'll be lynched tomorrow. Offstage can then decide whether to lynch StarKiss or CKD.
If the AP doesn't want to lynch CKD, s/he could make Hewitt the stuntman and we could force Hewitt to stunt on threat of lynch tomorrow. Then offstage would have StarKiss & Hewitt to choose from.

~Tal

[Talilan]

So we chose the wrong person to check, or we chose the wrong person to do the checking.

The scum are kicking our arses.

[Talilan]

BTW StarKiss comment on the previous page is, IMO, as good as a scum claim.

~Tal

[Talilan]

That's quite a turnaround for you Hewitt. You say StarKiss posted "valid reasons" that I'm scummy? I must have missed that. Are you no longer suspicious of StarKiss?

By the way, who is more likely to be scum Hewitt?.. the person tries hard to lynch someone suspicious or find the right answer to a puzzle but gets it wrong..... or the person who is sniping and complaining from the sideline, but goes along with the ill-fated lynches and ill-fated scene votes anyway?

~Tal

[Talilan]

Only 3 people will be left offstage in the next scene.

There are possibly 4 scum left so the possibility of having 2 scum and 1 townie offstage is very real. Therefore I think we should consider using this between scenes time to prescribe who is to be lynched and leave them behind with two others to do the job. If either of them don't lynch the person they are supposed to lynch, we can assume they are scum.

Feel free to nominate who you want to be left behind and lynched. I'll probably go with the majority.

My own nominations are:
Hewitt
zu_Faul
StarKiss

~Tal

[Talilan]

My 4th nomination is Thok... either him, myself, DGB or both Hewitt/MO have to be scum obviously.

Out of those options I like the Hewitt/MO combo or Thok for scum.

[Talilan]

What we can take away is that CKD was telling the truth as best he knew. It doesn't prove two mafia groups. IF (and that's a big IF) there is a SMG that is separate and distinct from the Scientologists then it may be a single person with a separate win condition. But the anti-town group ARE KY, Pooky, and whoever their friends are. NO QUESTION.

Tals wants to leave me and Hewitt off-stage with Zu Faul.

Not true. I want to pick one scum and leave them offstage with two people who will lynch them. This is an important pick as it is probably the last person we will find out the alignment of before endgame. I put forward 4 picks for who to lynch.

[Talilan]

I believed he was TOWN. I occasionally know town when I see it, and in CKD I SAW it. He WASNT making it UP. But there is also NO evidence towards a second mafia group called SMG and in fact the game setup does NOT lend itself to a second mafia group.

I have NO FRIGGIN CLUE who or what the SMG is. I am GUESSING when I say it might be a neutral aligned player because I just can't see other obvious options..

But I KNOW as certainly as any player playing a mafia game can know, that the "PRIMARY NON-INNOCENT ALIGNMENT" is KY KREW, POOKY and WHOEVER THEIR BUDDIES ARE. I can't see any other possibility given that we have ONE PNIA, TWO dead scientologists and a bunch of dead townies.

[Talilan]

Who to be the lynchers? Not sure yet. Volunteers or noms will be considered.

Why zu_Faul? I've long thought he was scummy, and reading the interactions with Thesp off-stage last scene I wanted to throw his name out there. He is the elephant in the room and I agree with Thesp that I'm tired of dancing around it. We can't let a scum slip by pretending to be the AP if they're not.

[Talilan]

There are other red herrings in this game, what is one more?

Two questions answered post before yours.

I'm at work and better stop scumming or I'll get in trouble.

[Talilan]

DGB, your point is a valid one. But what if the scum wittingly leave the AP out of endgame (they already have a lot more information as to who this person is or isn't than town does), which leaves them a nice safe AP claim that will not be countered. That is the biggest danger, IMO.

~Tal

[Talilan]

Simply that this game has them - E.g. the Hollywood theme and Mr Grey's game information links to lists of Oscar winners (the two latest town players to die DID NOT have Oscars... it seems 'The Oscars' was a red herring). So maybe (only MAYBE) CKD's information was a red herring too.

I've said all this before. The reason that I didnt want to lynch CKD is that he didnt smell like scum. Mith games will likely bite you if you lynch based on anything else other than good old-fashioned scum hunting. I have made that mistake in the past.

[Talilan]

I don't care what it looks like DGB.. If you're a believer and wanna go chasing down the mysterious SMG you do what you gotta do.

[Talilan]

this whole discussion has just been plainly pointless all game

everyone's like "rah rah rah what's the deal with the SMG" when it's patently clear it's a euphemism. Maybe...................the scientologists make up the screen mafia guild? duh.

- ortolan

[Talilan]

I'm increasingly curious about Mighty Orbots being the Advocate for the scene prior to this, when ckd was insistent that Mighty Orbots was not chosen for the scene.

As mith's last post showed, it's clear that the way it worked was that the scum select an advocate who ends up on-stage irrespective of the director's picks. When Talitha looked at ckd's claimed targets v.s. who ended up on-stage I'm pretty sure the only discrepancies were people who turned out to be the advocates. It seems strange that this is only public knowledge now though. I'm not sure if we ever brought it up in defence of ckd (although I firmly pretty consistently thought he was town

AFTER

scene one when I was skeptical), but it was pointless after he started calling for his own lynch anyways.

I'm extra disturbed that specifically a Very Bad was what we chose - that looks deliberate.

Well you'd think if scum were going to lie they would lead us towards Very Bad amirite? Please stop over-acting the "there might be two scumgroups" thing as well. It's far too late in the game to be pretending you don't know.

- ortolan

[Talilan]

But if there was a possibility of another alignment, I would certainly look at things differently. Talilan could not get a free pass for KY Krew's actions anymore, for instance.

There's always a possibility of another alignment. We don't want a free pass. Judge Talilan on Talilan's play.
We aren't playing particularly well, but we are playing sincerely.

DGB I never understood your onstage plan and did not feel comfortable going ahead with something that vague. SL charged ahead with his plan before we could resolve that.

Thesp I am trying to figure out how it went so terribly wrong in that scene too. If we believe that we were knowingly steered to a 'very bad' I think we have to agree that there were more than just one scum on stage.

BTW, Thesp why did you not give any thought or attention to lynching StarKiss?
zu_Faul, why did you not give any thought or attention to lynching StarKiss?

~Tal

[Talilan]

I just re-read Thesp's post. On one hand he says he hopes we get a scum flip and that it could break the game open. I am forever the optimist and I agree.

On the other hand he says that if there's still 4 scum left that we shouldn't lynch. I assume if there are 4 scum currently alive and we lynch town it will get us into worst possible endgame.

I hope we started with only 5 scum, but we have to consider 4 scum still alive (6 total) as a very real possibility.

My first reaction is bordering on physical illness that we might decide not to use our last lynch, especially having wasted (IMO) yesterday's lynch.

~Tal

[Talilan]

DGB, I don't follow why VP or myself has to be a liar AT ALL.
Why is Thok suddenly getting a free pass from you?
Where the hell is Thok anyway. I am VERY interested in his take on what went wrong last scene.

~Tal

ALSO:
Deadline is tomorrow. We have some really important decisions to make, and quickly.
1. Are we lynching? I say yes, but we'd want to be reasonably sure we're lynching scum, so...
2. WHO are we lynching?
In post 2367 of this thread CKD quotes StarKiss. Please go and read that comment. IMO there is no question StarKiss knows CKD is town, and he does not care. StarKiss is scum. QED. I think StarKiss is our safest lynch and I need two people who agree to stay offstage and lynch him.

~Tal

[Talilan]

If you really believe I should be lynched, you better fire me right now. and make it happen. You have that power.

And stop the hypocrisy. You've been an integral part of EVERY bad decision and I have not held that against you, because I havent felt that you are scum.

The Thok thing is a major point against you now. If you really believed he was scum (like you've been saying all along), he'd be the first person you would suspect of lying onstage. Yet you don't even acknowledge the possibility.

[Talilan]

Thanks MO. I'm not disagreeing with your pick, but I thought you were feeling better about Hewitt after last scene....? What do you think about StarKiss?

Also I'd like a couple of options for the other two, so scum don't know for sure who is going to be offstage (they get to pick an advocate this scene).

~Tal

[Talilan]

Also, others weighing in would be appreciated.

[Talilan]

I just looked at the rules again. It says we can only get the auto-worst endgame setup if we trigger EARLY it by hitting the minimum 5 innocents.
Even if we lynch a townie tomorrow and if that gets us down to 5 innocents, endgame still follows immediately. So there's no way we can trigger it early now. Am I right?

~Tal

[Talilan]

SL is not the one who has been calling Thok scum all game. YOU are.

[Talilan]

I have spent a while agonising over the picks to go onstage, but provisional choices are sent. If ortolan sees any glaring problems with my picks he can change them.

We should keep the choices under wraps to not give info to scum, but I'll explain my reasoning tomorrow.

[Talilan]

I haven't answered because I haven't posted since. Sorry, I did err in divining your thoughts, clearly I didn't read enough before posting. I'm not even sure how I got that interpretation to begin with.

I am starting to get a really bad feeling about DGB, because Thokky's been feeling more pro-town recently. I also think VP Baltar is town and hewitt is probably VI-town.

- ortolan