The Dark Goma Mafia: Massacre of the Cloth (Game Over)

[VP Baltar]

@tubby-yeah, you're correct. I didn't remember that correctly, just that you seemed to be questioning the validity of the cop claim. So, why were you asking him for breadcrumbs? Did you not believe PZ at that time?

Tubby, could you answer this?

tubby, to clarify on something else, does your role PM say you die like a hider normally does when you hide behind a townie who is killed?

Answer away.

[VP Baltar]

2807 does not answer my question about the breadcrumbs. 2824 is a post by Spyrex.

Answer away.

[VP Baltar]

you asked if i called into question pz's sanity . I did not. I asked if he had any breadcrums to his role ability. asking for breadcrumbs does not question the roles sanity.

See, now you are simply being willful about it and it's getting old.

So, why were you asking him for breadcrumbs? Did you not believe PZ at that time?

Stop dodging and answer these two questions. You have not. I said I misremembered about the sanity thing. That is no longer the question I am asking you.

Your answer to Vaya's question is also dodgey, so I will make it a simple yes or no question for your ease.

YES OR NO, does your role pm say you die if you are hiding behind town and they die?

[VP Baltar]

*high fives stark*

Way to be a hero. Who's next?

[VP Baltar]

A cult? This game keeps getting crazier. If that's true, we need him dead asap.

[VP Baltar]

Oh, I don't have drugs either (unfortunately) only hugs.

[VP Baltar]

stark, when did you first realize that tubby could be in the cult?

[VP Baltar]

Tubby needs to die. His claim sounds more bunk with every passing night. He's claiming he hid behind a dead person for christ's sake. If he doesn't die when he hides behind someone, he's essentially UNK unless he gets behind a converter.

While stark's cult theory isn't as open as shut as an investigation, tubby's breadcrumb does look shady.

Night sucks, but lynching scum makes it tolerable. [/discussion]

[VP Baltar]

Tubby needs to die. His claim sounds more bunk with every passing night. He's claiming he hid behind a dead person for christ's sake. If he doesn't die when he hides behind someone, he's essentially UNK unless he gets behind a converter.

While stark's cult theory isn't as open as shut as an investigation, tubby's breadcrumb does look shady.

Night sucks, but lynching scum makes it tolerable. [/discussion]

Yeah, I feel that way too, but I also think that players who have missed this whole discussion should have a chance to input as well.

Well, yeah, people should say what they have to say, but I was just airing my general opinion that a lynch beside tubby today is suboptimal. I've wanted him dead for a long time now, so I'm glad to see people are coming around.

[VP Baltar]

i think you are full of it. it is highly possible that PZ was killed prior to my hide going through. so in essence i did not hide at all last night. I never receive wether or not my hides are successful. All i get is that the mod received my pm.

Nowhere in the history of mafia would a kill resolve before a hide. That simply does not make sense. That's like having a vig resolve before a roleblocker. It negates the function of the role.

[VP Baltar]

hey, battlemage, so your feeling is that we shouldn't lynch tubby today, right?

[VP Baltar]

Or you clearly don't understand how a hider works and you thought you could get away with hiding behind a dead person so you didn't have to "confirm" any more innocents (or out your buddies by claiming you hid with them).

[VP Baltar]

^This is the only reason I can see for not out the rest of the roles today.

[VP Baltar]

If we don't go threw with this mass claim, I swear I'll make the weather slightly unpleasant tomorrow. Don't think I wont!!

^I have to admit I got a good chuckle.


I agree with stark's sentiments about a temporary truce. Cult needs deadening with extreme predjudice before we get on with the formalities.

[VP Baltar]

The only role I want to find is the one that has the Cava. Once I do, I will tell them to stop.

Snow Bunny claimed to have it I thought?

I dun get the drug thing... ¬_¬

[VP Baltar]

I think the smiley says otherwise, but I'm sure SB can clarify.

[VP Baltar]

@ben-they already investigated tubby WAAAAAAY back. his name claim is accurate.

[VP Baltar]

Don't feed the

bears

scum, stark.

[VP Baltar]

Are we putting any order to these claims? I'd prefer the scumbags go first, but I'm ready whenever.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, no problem. I'm the Master of Cloth. My power type is special and allows me to manipulate the fibers of anyone's clothes (including mine) and protect them from strangulation.

I was born in the poor outer districts of Surico and used my power growing up to support my family as a tailor. Life was hard and blah blah blah. When I heard about the Giver's death, I realized that I could be much more than tailor and could gain fame and fortune for my family by helping protect the citizens of Surico from the threat among them.

N1: I protected Volkan
N2: I protected Plum
N3: I tried to protect PZ. I received a PM from the mod saying that I was feeling woozy and fell into a deep sleep last night, thus rendering me incapable of using my ability. Thanks Spyrex. (not that it would have mattered in the long run I guess, but still).

[VP Baltar]

And I think BattleMage needs to claim next.

[VP Baltar]

I'm in pretty strong agreement with that scum list. You buggers got a serious revolt on your hands now.

[VP Baltar]

do the math it doesn't work, it also doesn't work that i have any connection at all to this cult,
at best stark and vp are retarded poor playing town, at worst the are the last two remaining converters bulling the town into myslynch.

Don't hurt my feelings.

Also, your claim has been horrible since you made it, so I'm much more interested in you dying over that than a suspected cult. No need to be remorseful over it. You survived for quite awhile on a bad claim.

[VP Baltar]

Battle mage sure is taking a long time typing up his fake claim. This should be good.

[VP Baltar]

Those people who haven't claimed all of their information should claim as well. This is mass claim after all. So, if you have a role name or flavor or whatever that hasn't come out yet, cough it up.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, especially since my ass is out in the wind now. Stop putting it off you scumbags and just do it.

[VP Baltar]

vp buddied/ supported stark for no reason other than vp doesn't like the fat guy

yer, I've never seen such an accurate appeal to emotion. Sounded like an air tight case at the time.

@Spyrex-Yeah, I popcorned BM, but at this point it is pretty safe to assume he is scum just not logging in to the thread cause he doesn't want to claim. He's tomorrow's lynch, so I'm cool with whoever goes next. I'm getting bored really fast waiting to fulfill my apparent hatred of "the fat guy", so people should really get on with the claiming business.

[VP Baltar]

also, you claim that you investigation last nite was on PZ,
PZ claimed cop who caught scum, ie, dram

why would you even target PZ??

This is actually a reasonable question. I'm interested to hear the answer.

@ Kise-So you can't post anything other than your killer's vote, correct? So, you get told who killed you?

[VP Baltar]

And that's what a lazy mind will get you kids.

[VP Baltar]

PS I don't think Kise is aligned with the council.

Do tell.

[VP Baltar]

And that's what a lazy mind will get you kids.

I'm markedly unimpressed. You think Stark-Cult Cop really believed that PZ could be Cult, who fluked claiming a guilty on a mafia member?

That has to be the stupidest thing i've EVER heard in a mafia game. All the more appalling because someone of your ability is buying into it. 0.o

BM

I'm not saying it was a good night choice, but the explanation is at least plausible. Much more so than tubby's "I hid with the dead guy and yet here I am because I live in a magical make believe world where a kill resolves before a hide".

You ready to claim yet?

[VP Baltar]

Didn't know you wanted flavor as well. I am an old fart -- the oldest person among both the city and within Council. Respect your elders, milk.

This is seriously all the flavor you have?

[VP Baltar]

The giver was killed by the "strangling" kill, which has been present each night. If the cult killed the Giver, they have a nightkill. I'd consider the idea that the cult may not be a Mafia Cult.. I have difficulty seeing how a recruiting cult works in a power role game.

It has crossed my mind that we may have a cult in some form similar to Vi's Mentor role. It is basically a cult with limited recruitment and an NK. It would explain why there was no strangulation on night 1 if it wasn't blocked. It would also explain how a "cult" could fit in with all powerroles.

[VP Baltar]

BM, let me know when you are going to stop coming up with every possible excuse for tubby and his horribad claim. Then after that feel free to claim. Mass claim is already well underway and I see no reason for you to continue stalling.

[VP Baltar]

Elmo, any thoughts on what happened to your vote?

[VP Baltar]

Yep, one of ben and elmo are scum, guaranteed.

[VP Baltar]

Needless to say I think we're ALSO missing some actual NAME claims from those that have claimed.

^This. Again.


Also, Spy, I rechecked my role PM and it makes reference to The Dark Goma as just "the Goma". I think it is fair to question flavor, specifically regarding this cult business because that is unconfirmed thus far, but in this one point I will say it is consistent with my role PM.

[VP Baltar]

..sorry, how? That looks pretty freaking scummy. There's no conflict between what we've said about our roles, and it's very natural that we'd both be town, moreso because he talked about halving a vote as opposed to reducing it to a half, implying the mod didn't design the role with targeting me in mind. So what the hell?

Yeah, see, I highly doubt there are TWO town roles that mess with the VC. But that's just me I suppose.

Your flavor says some might suspect you of being involved in killing the Giver?

[VP Baltar]

I'm not particularly convinced that the town needs a countermeasure to a scum doublevoter beyond, say, a convenient rope

I think lylo balance begs to differ with you.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, so you think it is likely that the town not only starts the game with more voting power than the scum, but also has the ability to further reduce their voting power via Benmage's ability?

Your argument that one or the other of you isn't likely to make it to <=9 people is stupid. At the start of the game each role has roughly the same chances of making it to lylo or any other point in the game and it's not the mod's job to guarantee that they do. The mod's job is to balance the game even given extreme circumstances, such as you both making it to a situation where your double vote is game changing factor.

If you're scum, of course it is better to lynch you, but from a game design perspective you have put things in a game to balance a worst case scenario.

As in, repeatedly pointing out the fact I'm a double voter and trying to make that suspicious by closing your eyes and wishing really, really hard.

Nice ad hom.

It's also quite interesting how you are pretty active now that I've turned some mild attention in your direction. Since you're around a bit more often now, how about some thoughts on the game that aren't simply defending yourself?

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: Battle Mage

Claim or die.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: tubby

[VP Baltar]

u got a purty mouth.

[VP Baltar]

Lynching battle mage and elmo needs to be happening asap. I'll wait for people to weigh in and claim night actions before putting down my vote.

I protected myself last night.

[VP Baltar]

I think SP should claim first.

[VP Baltar]

Vote Battle Mage

Since I'm not really going to be around much for the next couple of days and this is the game I am in where scum are basically trapped.

[VP Baltar]

Well, I'm not in a cult as far as I can tell. My guess is that Battle Mage and SP are scumbuddies.

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Elmo

Couldn't be more obv. scum if he tried.

[VP Baltar]

I would also be ok with a Snow Bunny lynch. It occured to me over night that she is probably an SK.

I'd like to hear Stark's thoughts on whether or not this alleged cult exists or if his role is just one big ruse by the mod.

[VP Baltar]

Because of how much of a background character you have been. I think you haven't really appeared all that pro-town or done that much work to forward the town's goals and yet I don't see much connection between you and the dead scums.

I have a shortlist of people I think could be in a third party and over night I did some thinking about it to see who I felt was most likely. Congrats, you're the winner.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote

I'm willing to hear out Llama on this for now.

[VP Baltar]

I've been giving my attention to other games with more urgent matters lately, so sorry for my basic non-presence today.

At a glance, Llama doesn't have anything that I think needs to be dealt with urgently. Elmo is almost guaranteed to hit scum and, judging from his general absence now, he knows he's screwed.

I'll wait for a votecount and others to speak up if they'd like, but I'm still ready to lynch.

[VP Baltar]

Yer, chamer, sometimes scum is just scum.

[VP Baltar]

Anyhow, I already told you that SB is the SK. Let's wrap this up and bring it on home.

Vote: Elmo

[VP Baltar]

Ugh....I suck at WIFOMing scum. I shouldn't have second guessed myself.

I need to do some thinking before voting. Elmo flipping town was pretty unexpected.

[VP Baltar]

VP, seriously? Sociopath was confirmed town and you did not protect him. Who was more worth protecting?

I thought the same thing, so I wifomed myself into believing that the strangler would think the same and would use the opportunity of me protecting Sociopath to come after me, since I would be the biggest threat to his or her success. I decided to protect myself.

Also, did you get anything from Spyrex?

[VP Baltar]

Seriously? Then what the hell happened?

[VP Baltar]

My understanding is generally that a doc protect stops all kills unless it is limited in some way.

The scum having ANOTHER roleblocker seems odd at first, but given that everyone is a power role in this game, I guess it's not a completely outlandish possibility.

Spy-What's the star next to Chambers name?

[VP Baltar]

Self-vote, really Kise?

[VP Baltar]

And SB, how do you think you've played this game? About the only time I see you actually being engaged on any real level is when someone wants to lynch you.

SB getting an investigation does nothing for me one way or the other. If she's scum, of course she's not going to use it on someone and have a confirmed innocent floating around that she'll have to kill later. If she's town, could just be bad luck.

Her desire to stay out of the limelight screams scum to me though, especially 3rd party scum that doesn't have any buddies to help get the heat off if it starts coming down.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, let's not get in too big of a hurry. I want to dedicate some time to this game (hopefully this weekend) and I think we can talk our way to the best possible lynch today with a bit of effort.

[VP Baltar]

Plus it will give us time to snuggle in thread, Spy. I feel our relationship has been so loveless these past days. I'm guessing it was the Princess Lea avatar.

[VP Baltar]

Your list is pretty much my feelings. Sajin vacillates between the meh and scum list for me.

Stark is just weird and I can't wrap my head around him. If he's scum, it's a crazy ass gambit he was going for.

I mean, a lot of the issue with the "scum" players (less so stark in the past couple days and moreso chamber) is that they seem entirely vacant throughout most of the game (which is why I need time to reread some things). They have largely just been standing around while us zombies are doing all the heavy lifting. I don't think I should really feel that way about any town player on DAY 7 of a game.

SB is clearly the worst of the offenders in this regard.

[VP Baltar]

BUT THEY CLAIMED A TOWN ROLE.

Damn it! I knew I was missing something. I really wish the scum would just claim their roles already. Stop being so difficult.

The new issue I have with Sajin is that potion fiasco. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact on top of not knowing what my damn potions do I have duds?

You were told fairly clearly the potion I gave you was an RB right?

Yeah, that's true. I received a PM the night you sent me something. Even if it was a dud potion, I would think he'd at least receive SOME notification.

[VP Baltar]

Yep. Everyone else has been forthcoming and everyone else clearly received notification that they received something...to have nothing now after six consecutive tries is more than a bit odd.

[VP Baltar]

slut.

Vote: Sajin

[VP Baltar]

Looking back through SP's iso, I really dont' think he would have blocked him. He wasn't even hardly on SP's radar and when he did mention him he calls him town. Why would he use his block to stop someone he either thinks is town or didn't care about?

[VP Baltar]

Gambit. I already pointed out WAAAAAY back when you claimed that claiming miller was recently done by KK scum with very successful results. You've survived this long, so it clearly was not the death sentence you were making it out to be.

Why was your initial read of Kise v. Llama town on town, but second read changed that? Did you miss information on your first read?

[VP Baltar]

Sajin, which night were you roleblocked again? (I'm lazy right now)


Also, if Sajin is town, looking at the competing wagons he's referring to, I'd put money on SB scum, Kise-SK.

[VP Baltar]

Who suggested it first Vaya?

[VP Baltar]

Why Sajin over Snow Bunny, chamber? We know for a fact that Sajin can't be the strangler, but Snow Bunny is likely scum and could be either or. Seems like our odds are better with her lynch.

Also, it has occured to me that the town likely has this game in the bag. In the off chance we don't hit scum today (very off chance) one of two things will happen tonight: 1) At least one of the scum dies in cross kills and we'll have a good chance of lynching the other by PoE, or 2) Prisoner's dilemma tomorrow in which we no lynch and the town will still win.

There are 7 votes apparently...so does Snow Bunny still control her own as well?

[VP Baltar]

Well...chamber dying from your potion could throw a wrench in the works.

[VP Baltar]

True. I think I'm just having the same worries that you are that one of you or Llama could be scum. I don't think it's highly likely, but it's a possibility I need to take into consideration.

Chamber, did you receive anything information last night about receiving the potion that might indicate if you'll be dying?

[VP Baltar]

damn.

[VP Baltar]

Sajin was roleblocked by SP on like Night 3 and we still had both kills, therefore he's not the strangler.

I don't see him as being cleared from being scum though. He did make an argument that there was a wagon on him at the time that there was a scum being wagoned too...which gives some credence to him being town.

Re: Llama-it has occured to me that Llama could be scum (either or) and we really did only have a half doc in this game. In some sense I could see a mod doing this...but it would also probably be unfair to an SK to have a doc out there that could block their kills while a whole scum team has nothing preventing it from killing. Since I haven't seen any other roles that look specifically aimed at limiting the scum team, I think it's pretty unlikely that Llama is scum who was riding my claim.

And yeah, that would take some balls for sure.

[VP Baltar]

Vote:SB

Zombie train.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, SC died night 3.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, so that also proves to me that you're not the SK since I would think killing is an active ability and there was still a strangulation night 2.

[VP Baltar]

Actually, hell, what I am doing.

THAT DAY SC was talking about someone else being the SK.

Further, N3 when I gave VP a potion and he claimed RB:

8.) SerialClergyman, The Toucher, With the Council, Strangled Night 3
5.) Papa Zito, The Jokester, With the Council, Throat Slit, Night 3

Sooo

^This right here Sajin.

I was also roleblocked by Spy.

Also, your argument amounts to "You didn't make a good night choice".

You're either really dense town or flailing scum. I'm just trying to piece together what specifically you'd get out of my lynch if you are scum.

[VP Baltar]

lol, GHOST DAD, ftw.

[VP Baltar]

@VPBaltar- I do not know about you but I was not notified when I was roleblocked. You said you were notified. True it was from a different source, but explain to me how you as a non killing non information role would have an inkling about it?

As I said, I received a PM from the mod. Don't ask me about the consistency of the mod's PM people with respect to the potions because I have no clue.

@SB - Strangle only didnt show N1. No one alive was blocked N1, so either VPB had a good protect, something else stopped the kill, or there was no kill submitted

^This. Also, did dramonic claim his N1 target? I can't recall.

It would even appease GHOST DAD.

PuDdInG PoPs aRe DeLiCiOuS!

[VP Baltar]

If I would have been blocked by the bubble thing (that if I recall correctly was more of a jailkeeper than a roleblocker) I wouldn't have been able to get Spyrex' potion.

Pretty sure a roleblock wouldn't prevent receiving things, just abilities. At least that is how I would do it as a mod.

[VP Baltar]

Hey SB, you should vote for someone. I want to see what happens while we're waiting on Mr. Huxtable.

[VP Baltar]

Why Sajin over Sb?

[VP Baltar]

Sajin, I still fail to understand your continual push that I am the SK when it has been proven more than once that I am not. Even if you believe that my claim is fake (which I see no reason to reach that conclusion), SC would not have died on night 3 if he had stolen a killing ability from me. Nor would there have been a kill when Spyrex put me potion blocked me. If you have to ignore factual data to come to your conclusion, it's probably not a very good one. Normally I would find this kind of leaping in logic scummy, but since I think it is unlikely you are scum I'll simply chalk it up to confirmation bias.

Also, I have no clue what the hold up on the SB lynch is. She's pretty obv. scum.

[VP Baltar]

Your guess is as good as mine Spy. You guys seem to mostly post late at night and I in the mornings, so every day I wake up hoping to see SB lynched as scum and this thread headed for what should be our victory....but alas, Christmas apparently won't come early this year.

I know Kise is back now from his connection problems, so unless he has a problem with the SB lynch he ought to be hammering. If he does have a problem, then you've already laid out the signal for him.

Soooo.......

[VP Baltar]

FINALLY...baby jesus can be born now. Hallelujah!

[VP Baltar]

I can protect anyone including myself, but not two nights in a row. My targets were:

n1:Volkan
n2:Plum
n3:Papa Zito
n4:myself
n5: Spyrex
n6: myself
n7:Spyrex
n8: myself

This is the way I look at it right now, given evidence in the thread Sajin is probably town unless he bussed the hell out of his partners. Chamber I was fairly certain was town before, but that's out the window now. He's my top pick for the strangler.

Llama is probably scum given the fact that he's not dead. Why would the scum have targeted anyone else every single night since his claim? There was nothing preventing them from killing a doc for most of the game and yet they don't do it? It doesn't make any sense.

Unfortunately, I don't know what Sajin and I can do to win the game at this point since we're going to get screwed on the NK. If we lynch chamber, Llama takes one of us out and wins. If we lynch Llama, Chamber kills me and wins.

[VP Baltar]

regarding Sajin?

[VP Baltar]

Well, we talked about this fairly extensively yesterday, but there was a competing wagon on him when scum was being lynched (dramonic, iirc) and he was RB'd on a night there was a strangulation.

Do you think it is likely he is scum, and if so please explain why because I don't really see it.

[VP Baltar]

The only way I'd believe it's not you chamber is if the scum had some weird reason for trying to bus Sajin over their partner at that time and Llama is the strangler. I can see the latter, but I have a hard time coming up with a reason for the former.

You may as well just admit if you're scum because the town is pretty much screwed at this point anyhow.

[VP Baltar]

Also, it's been proven in thread that I can't be the SK and I had a hand in most of the scum lynches, so unless you think I bussed most of my team that is out of the question as well.

[VP Baltar]

@Sajin-I'm not talking about the RB from Spy. I'm referring to the fact that SC touched me and yet the stranglings did not stop.

@Llama-yeah, it occurred to me later in the day that no lynch is the probably the best bet.

Also, can you answer the same question about restrictions on your doc ability that you asked me. Can you protect yourself? Are there any other restrictions.

[VP Baltar]

Ok cool, please explain your reaction here then:

I protected myself last night.

Wait what? You can do that?

[VP Baltar]

No. I just figured you couldn't. I wouldn't think that our roles needed to be identical. When you reasked me about my role today and then claimed you could self protect. I thought it was weird because I remembered something that implied you couldn't.

[VP Baltar]

So you didn't understand your role PM initially?

[VP Baltar]

Well, that is really where my problem is coming from Llama. You've had a lot of stuff that came after I claimed my role that is all a bit revisionist so your role is in tune with mine.

Now, essentially your defense is 'whoops, made some mistakes' or 'I was WIFOMing', which I was willing to let slide earlier because there were definitely people who looked scummier than you, but at this point I don't see how you could legitimately not be scum of some type.

If you're town, what type of scum do you think Sajin is? chamber?

[VP Baltar]

Looking back at the votecounts, I'd say Llama-SK and chamber-scum makes the most sense, but as the days wear on their voting gets more similar.

At least you guys know who you need to cross kill tonight. Keep hope alive!

[VP Baltar]

N2 (or was it three, im dead tired but want to post before I go to sleep and forget) when VPB got 'roleblocked' he did get targeted by Spy, although he did not get roleblocked. He most likely just picked up a one shot something and didnt say what it was. NO ONE else had this happen. We had abilities, we had 'nothing' and we had poision that somehow wore off. No explicit results though. Really it was a brilliant move, he was 'killed' so regarded as basically confirmed town, he just was putting another safety knot in his harness. What better way then to confirm yourself as non-strangle then to claim it would of been impossible when it couldnt be proved!

I don't understand whatever scenario you are trying to suggest happened here. Please explain this differently.

He either guessed my details correctly in the case of self-protect, or infered the restriction (double target rule).

haha, this is utterly ridiculous. You are suggesting that I guessed all of the details of your role (which you had to correct almost all of in thread after I claimed mine) before you claimed them? Flail, scum, flail....or should that be fail scum?

Anyways, here is a possibility if people agree that im town, and that VPB is SK. Lynch VPB, my thoughts havent changed since daybreak, so im going to outright say that I may of lied about my target last night. Who knows, maybe I threw away my action predicting this would occur, or saved chamber from poision. I could be unrestricted tonight though for killing, and if I get my protect right, town can win.

Why would anyone assume you are town when you are about --||-- close to being confirmed scum? My guess is that you are the SK who for some reason believes I'm the scum and you want me lynched today so you're free to win the game tonight.

No lynch and hoping for a cross kill is clearly the only option the town has here since doc protect tonight is basically out the window.

[VP Baltar]

Vote: No Lynch

[VP Baltar]

And there you go, PD.

[VP Baltar]

So what, you are claiming scum then?

Where did I do that?

Sajin, I'd like to hear your own theory honestly. Llama is essentially confirmed scum, just like I said yesterday, but I want to hear your thoughts.

[VP Baltar]

lulz, so your plan is to claim SK when you are actually mafia to get the sympathy card? That's precious.

Sajin, I'll make my post in a bit and point out all of the ridiculousness above sometime today.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, since Llama has claimed scum now and is trying to steal my thunder, I may as well come out as well.

I am indeed The Master of Cloth, but I am the serial killer, not Llama. I think you have known this for quite some time Sajin, but I was lucky enough to avoid a lynch because people wouldn't listen to you. Though I'm pretty certain that you know the truth here, I'll go ahead and point out some things and reassure you.

#1 Fact that you should look at to blatantly say that I'm SK and not scum is that I was on every single scum lynch thus far:

Final Vote Count (Page 112, Day 3)

dramonic -11 (Papa Zito, Elmo, stark, Plum, VP Baltar, Vaya, LlamaFluff, SerialClergyman, chamber, milkshake)
Sajin -7 (Benmage, SpyreX, Snow_Bunny, Battle Mage, dramonic, tubby216 )
tubby216 -1 (SocioPath)
Battle Mage -1 (Sajin)

Not Voting: Kise

Final Vote Count (Page 132, Day 4)

tubby216 -8 (SocioPath, stark, LlamaFluff, chamber, Snow_Bunny, VP Baltar, SpyreX, milkshake )
Battle Mage -3.5 (Elmo, Sajin, Benmage, tubby216)
stark -1 (Battle Mage)

Final Vote Count (Page 136, Day 5)

Battle Mage -7.5 (Elmo, Kise, VP Baltar, SocioPath, Benmage, chamber, Vaya, SpyreX)
Elmo -1 (Snow_Bunny)
Vaya -1 (Battle Mage)

Not Voting: stark, LlamaFluff, milkshake, Sajin,

Now, just a couple things to point out above. Yes, Llama was on two of those lynches, but it is clearly scum bussing given his feeling toward them before they became majorly popular:

I dont get the ensuing tubby/dram wagons either. As much as I thought tubby was scum, he has a reasonable, and supported claim. Dram just comes off as overeager, but town as well. We should get back to lynching PZ which I will try and finish stating why soon.

Seriously though. We have tubby who claimed hider and hid with milk and didnt die, so we dont lynch milk before tubby. Dramn is trying to lynch milk which I competely disagree with given the previous statement, but I dont think he is scum for doing that, since there is no way its actually going to result in a lynch, and if he is scum he just outed himself needlessly and now needs to use his role in a protown manner.

I dont like the milk lynch, dram lynch, or tubby lynch. None of them make any sense as scum given how the day has gone down. The lynch should be a third party, not one of the hot topics.

Dram is actually really town looking after that jump. He is town, he thought he caught scum so he jumped at the chance to get them lynched. He *did* forget the cleared chain, but it still looks like a really town move to me trying to get someone lynched with role information.

In the meantime, can someone put up a decent case for a milk/tubby/dram lynch so I can trash it and move on to getting scum lynched?

I will not be voting dram today, I dont really feel like voting tubby today. When I am not at work I will get back to why I like a PZ lynch, and maybe go pick apart some of a case on dram.

I would prefer a massclaim tomorrow given two clear trains of thought going

unvote
vote sajin

on the merit that he is not dramonic

Also I am having some computer issues right now, not sure how long it will take me to sort them out, but there is a good chance I wont be able to make any decent sized posts untill they get cleared up due to only consistant access being at work.

^Classic scum "I have RL issues now that my buddy is being run up". Also still doesn't want dram lynched under any circumstances, which is followed by his next post:

unvote
vote dramonic

would of been nice of you to claim this the first time sajin was at L-1 to save a little time at least

While this does come after PZ's cop claim, I would say this is definitely an unreasonable swap in stances considering that Llama was wanting PZ lynched for a very long time (presumably because he thought he was scum) and that he under no circumstances wanted to lynch dram in the many posts preceeding that. If he actually felt that way, wouldn't he have wanted to lynch PZ first? It makes no sense.

Second thing I would like to point out is that the final vote count on tubby slightly belies where I stood on it, since I was the person who drummed up that wagon and was the first vote on it. The only reason I am later on it in the final vote count is because I left the wagon to place my vote on confirmed scum Battle Mage.

By the time the Battle Mage wagon comes around, Llama is pretty much nowhere to be found that day, but who can really blame him considering how poorly his scum team played this entire game.

Now, why would I claim my true role as the SK at this juncture. Well, Llama is right about one thing, I feel as the serial killer I do deserve to win this game. I think I have played a masterful game and even though I was suspected several times as the serial killer, particularly by you Sajin, I was able to stave off the noose and NKing long enough to reach our current predicament.

Further, I didn't have a safeclaim and took a massive gamble when I claimed my role. I made up pretty much every thing except for my role name. When Llama claimed the counterpoint to my role, I was 98% certain he was scum, but I let him ride my coattails for this long because I was hoping he would be useful and kill some people at night so we could reach endgame sooner. Too bad he didn't fullfil that for me really. You can clearly see that he was riding my coattails by how much he had to fix his claim after the fact. In his above post he said I kept changing my claim, but no where in this thread can he point to anything I backtracked about in my claim.

As far as the touching thing from SC, my ability really is special and that is why he did not steal it the night he touched me. I was fairly certain that he didn't have anything on me since he wasn't really coming after me that day, but I was worried that if he did pick up my ability (manipulating clothes) that he could strangle someone and figure out who I was. That is why I killed him that night before he got the chance just in case.

The way I see it Sajin, you have three options here:

1) Lynch me and give Llama a win for the scum team that they truly do not deserve. They played a very weak game and really the only reason Llama is here is because he rode my claim and I didn't kill him yet for my own benefit.

2) Lynch Llama and hand me a victory that I've worked very hard towards. I took plenty of big chances in this game and I think I played very strategically. This was a 27 player game and the chances of an SK actually winning are quite small.

3) Vote No Lynch and hope that Llama and I cross kill each other tonight.

[VP Baltar]

If you also want to look at the 'who pushed what' part of this game. Take a look at how we played the late game. VPB hung back for the most part, happy to take part in the inevitable lynches (Elmo and Snow) while just defending himself (with the help of me and Spy). I on the other hand actually took some control making sure that Kise was able to be lynched, and sticking myself out there a bit to make sure that neither of us lost the game because people wised up quick enough.

lol.

I had been playing Spyrex since like day 2. I almost felt bad about it. Letting you live to support my claim was also my choice, as I could have easily killed you much sooner. Being strategic is good play, not bad.

VPB went into coast mode, I went into 'achieve mislynch' mode. Basing who deserves it on late game play, its me since I actually was an active part of trying to get some mislynches as opposed to just following along with wagons.

This makes no sense. Let's look at activity if that's what you want to do....let's see here, iso button, Llama, go... 151 posts. ok

iso button, VP Baltar, go....303 posts.

And there you have it. Somehow i have coasted and yet posted twice as often as you and was never called out for anything like coasting or just going along with popular lynches. We can get into detailed arguments about it if you'd like, but I don't think you could be more wrong.

Just think about it though, look at both our play through the game and put the vote down for who you think played a better game. If you dont belive im the SK, look at both of us as both anti-town alignments and vote who you think played a better game as either. I think no matter what you believe me to be I came out on top.

And rather than refuting any kind of argument I made about how he isn't the SK he simple reverts to "look at both of us as both anti-town alignments". This is an admission that he was lying about his role in the first place.

If you want, Sajin, we can both claim our actual flavor and see whose is more believable. (obviously Llama-liar should go first).

---

Seriously though, how does player A hid behind B, player C JKed B make you want to lynch one of them right off the bat? I figured it ment all of them were obviously town and it was going to be a pain to figure out the best way to NK all of them.

So it was going to be a pain to NK all of these folks you thought were confirmed town, and yet you didn't want to join the popular lynching wagons on them? That makes a lot of sense. I would think an SK in that situation would at least consider the possibility that they were scum trying to clear each other, which I did and was the truth.

You also forget BM was a completely inevitable lynch. No reason again as scum I wouldnt of jumped on and now been pulling the same 'lulz I lynched scum' thing you did.

Well, I don't know about you, but when I see an easy scum lynch against a team that's not me I'm more than happy to take it. I guess your main course of action is to let others take it for you?

[VP Baltar]

If you also want to look at the 'who pushed what' part of this game. Take a look at how we played the late game. VPB hung back for the most part, happy to take part in the inevitable lynches (Elmo and Snow) while just defending himself (with the help of me and Spy). I on the other hand actually took some control making sure that Kise was able to be lynched, and sticking myself out there a bit to make sure that neither of us lost the game because people wised up quick enough.

lol.

I had been playing Spyrex since like day 2. I almost felt bad about it. Letting you live to support my claim was also my choice, as I could have easily killed you much sooner. Being strategic is good play, not bad.

VPB went into coast mode, I went into 'achieve mislynch' mode. Basing who deserves it on late game play, its me since I actually was an active part of trying to get some mislynches as opposed to just following along with wagons.

This makes no sense. Let's look at activity if that's what you want to do....let's see here, iso button, Llama, go... 151 posts. ok

iso button, VP Baltar, go....303 posts.

And there you have it. Somehow i have coasted and yet posted twice as often as you and was never called out for anything like coasting or just going along with popular lynches. We can get into detailed arguments about it if you'd like, but I don't think you could be more wrong.

Just think about it though, look at both our play through the game and put the vote down for who you think played a better game. If you dont belive im the SK, look at both of us as both anti-town alignments and vote who you think played a better game as either. I think no matter what you believe me to be I came out on top.

And rather than refuting any kind of argument I made about how he isn't the SK he simple reverts to "look at both of us as both anti-town alignments". This is an admission that he was lying about his role in the first place.

If you want, Sajin, we can both claim our actual flavor and see whose is more believable. (obviously Llama-liar should go first).

---

Seriously though, how does player A hid behind B, player C JKed B make you want to lynch one of them right off the bat? I figured it ment all of them were obviously town and it was going to be a pain to figure out the best way to NK all of them.

So it was going to be a pain to NK all of these folks you thought were confirmed town, and yet you didn't want to join the popular lynching wagons on them? That makes a lot of sense. I would think an SK in that situation would at least consider the possibility that they were scum trying to clear each other, which I did and was the truth.

You also forget BM was a completely inevitable lynch. No reason again as scum I wouldnt of jumped on and now been pulling the same 'lulz I lynched scum' thing you did.

Well, I don't know about you, but when I see an easy scum lynch against a team that's not me I'm more than happy to take it. I guess your main course of action is to let others take it for you?

[VP Baltar]

If you also want to look at the 'who pushed what' part of this game. Take a look at how we played the late game. VPB hung back for the most part, happy to take part in the inevitable lynches (Elmo and Snow) while just defending himself (with the help of me and Spy). I on the other hand actually took some control making sure that Kise was able to be lynched, and sticking myself out there a bit to make sure that neither of us lost the game because people wised up quick enough.

lol.

I had been playing Spyrex since like day 2. I almost felt bad about it. Letting you live to support my claim was also my choice, as I could have easily killed you much sooner. Being strategic is good play, not bad.

VPB went into coast mode, I went into 'achieve mislynch' mode. Basing who deserves it on late game play, its me since I actually was an active part of trying to get some mislynches as opposed to just following along with wagons.

This makes no sense. Let's look at activity if that's what you want to do....let's see here, iso button, Llama, go... 151 posts. ok

iso button, VP Baltar, go....303 posts.

And there you have it. Somehow i have coasted and yet posted twice as often as you and was never called out for anything like coasting or just going along with popular lynches. We can get into detailed arguments about it if you'd like, but I don't think you could be more wrong.

Just think about it though, look at both our play through the game and put the vote down for who you think played a better game. If you dont belive im the SK, look at both of us as both anti-town alignments and vote who you think played a better game as either. I think no matter what you believe me to be I came out on top.

And rather than refuting any kind of argument I made about how he isn't the SK he simple reverts to "look at both of us as both anti-town alignments". This is an admission that he was lying about his role in the first place.

If you want, Sajin, we can both claim our actual flavor and see whose is more believable. (obviously Llama-liar should go first).

---

Seriously though, how does player A hid behind B, player C JKed B make you want to lynch one of them right off the bat? I figured it ment all of them were obviously town and it was going to be a pain to figure out the best way to NK all of them.

So it was going to be a pain to NK all of these folks you thought were confirmed town, and yet you didn't want to join the popular lynching wagons on them? That makes a lot of sense. I would think an SK in that situation would at least consider the possibility that they were scum trying to clear each other, which I did and was the truth.

You also forget BM was a completely inevitable lynch. No reason again as scum I wouldnt of jumped on and now been pulling the same 'lulz I lynched scum' thing you did.

Well, I don't know about you, but when I see an easy scum lynch against a team that's not me I'm more than happy to take it. I guess your main course of action is to let others take it for you?

[VP Baltar]

If you also want to look at the 'who pushed what' part of this game. Take a look at how we played the late game. VPB hung back for the most part, happy to take part in the inevitable lynches (Elmo and Snow) while just defending himself (with the help of me and Spy). I on the other hand actually took some control making sure that Kise was able to be lynched, and sticking myself out there a bit to make sure that neither of us lost the game because people wised up quick enough.

lol.

I had been playing Spyrex since like day 2. I almost felt bad about it. Letting you live to support my claim was also my choice, as I could have easily killed you much sooner. Being strategic is good play, not bad.

VPB went into coast mode, I went into 'achieve mislynch' mode. Basing who deserves it on late game play, its me since I actually was an active part of trying to get some mislynches as opposed to just following along with wagons.

This makes no sense. Let's look at activity if that's what you want to do....let's see here, iso button, Llama, go... 151 posts. ok

iso button, VP Baltar, go....303 posts.

And there you have it. Somehow i have coasted and yet posted twice as often as you and was never called out for anything like coasting or just going along with popular lynches. We can get into detailed arguments about it if you'd like, but I don't think you could be more wrong.

Just think about it though, look at both our play through the game and put the vote down for who you think played a better game. If you dont belive im the SK, look at both of us as both anti-town alignments and vote who you think played a better game as either. I think no matter what you believe me to be I came out on top.

And rather than refuting any kind of argument I made about how he isn't the SK he simple reverts to "look at both of us as both anti-town alignments". This is an admission that he was lying about his role in the first place.

If you want, Sajin, we can both claim our actual flavor and see whose is more believable. (obviously Llama-liar should go first).

---

Seriously though, how does player A hid behind B, player C JKed B make you want to lynch one of them right off the bat? I figured it ment all of them were obviously town and it was going to be a pain to figure out the best way to NK all of them.

So it was going to be a pain to NK all of these folks you thought were confirmed town, and yet you didn't want to join the popular lynching wagons on them? That makes a lot of sense. I would think an SK in that situation would at least consider the possibility that they were scum trying to clear each other, which I did and was the truth.

You also forget BM was a completely inevitable lynch. No reason again as scum I wouldnt of jumped on and now been pulling the same 'lulz I lynched scum' thing you did.

Well, I don't know about you, but when I see an easy scum lynch against a team that's not me I'm more than happy to take it. I guess your main course of action is to let others take it for you?

[VP Baltar]

sorry about the mega-multi post....MS was acting weird.

[VP Baltar]

Yet you ignore my whole point about stopping doing anything but following the popular lynches and my push on Kise. Im not saying you didnt play Spy well, I am saying you werent a driving force behind finding a new mislynch, one that neither of us could NK as well.

I ignored it because you haven't given any evidence to support it whatsoever. I gave counter evidence to your empty rhetoric, so the onus here is really on you my friend. Also, I wasn't on the Kise lynch, so I don't know how I followed your push on the Kise lynch. That actually wasn't very useful at all for me, so why would I support it?

Lets get into it actually. What lynches that werent popular did you push from scratch? I know Kise was my doing, I at least tried to get PZ lynched, you I cant remember doing much but getting out of the way of lynches that were doomed to happen (BM, Elmo, SB)

All of your freaking scum buddies getting lynched I had a hand in. Elmo was a lynch I was pushing for a long time due to his voting abilities. Kmd I had a hand in. The final push for Snow Bunny was also largely due to me working on Spyrex the entire game. If you don't think I've had anything to do with the outcome of this game, then you're either delusional or making one of the weakest rhetoric-based arguments I've seen in awhile.

Right. I figured they were all town, and if one of them was going to get lynched I wasnt going to be a part of it and pick up some points for being off the wagon, and more points for pushing a scum wagon in the meantime. Them being scum made that plan backfire pretty harshly, but it was the right move I think. You just NK the JK and the cleared player from the hider. The hider will eventually die off with a bad move.

Yes, well I guess the facts are there. You called all of the scum town for as long as possible while I was pushing for their lynches. I'm sure your theory sounds more likely to be the truth.

Yeah I should of just jumped that wagon. I was a little more intent on making sure that Ben/Elmo were going to get lynched though instead of pushing the easy lynch through.

lol, so instead of lynching a scum who is your main rival in this game you were worried about getting a town mislynch? How did that seem likely to you since you apparently considered the BM lynch to be inevitable? That's not even logically consistent. What is even more comical is that you don't mention either ben or elmo that day as a scum suspect, nor do you even vote anyone. All you talk about is your own role and whether or not you should claim your "info".

[VP Baltar]

Vote: No Lynch

[VP Baltar]

Well, nerts. I had a feeling that Sajin was UNK since I tried to take him out very early (N1?) and he lived.

I was trying to think of a way to get Llama to help me lynch him the last day, but as I figured he knew very well I was UNK I didn't think he would go for it and I didn't want to push my luck to a point where I might have been lynched out of spite.

GG all and thanks for modding ckd. This was a lot of fun and even though it ended in a draw (all that effort for naught!), I would definitely pre-in for the next game when it comes around.

[VP Baltar]

DGB's role was hilarious.

Oh and here's my formal apology, Spyrex. Soooowwwwwyyyy. You were my personal gold card to endgame.

[VP Baltar]

DGB's role was hilarious.

Oh and here's my formal apology, Spyrex. Soooowwwwwyyyy. You were my personal gold card to endgame.

yeah the "spy you RBed me was great"..actually spy gave you the ability to RB

What sucks is that I was super excited about getting that ability...and then I realized that there weren't many threats to me left at that point so I just burnt it on Battle Mage.

[VP Baltar]

VPB, if you thought I was nightkill immune why lynch snowbunny over me?

It was a calculated risk. I wasn't

certain

that you were NK-immune since I sent the kill on you very early in the game. I also thought there was a possibility that you were just immune to my kills. Pushing on you would have been much more challenging than getting SB lynched and could have possibly exposed me if it went sideways after you flipped.

Had you not had a competing scum wagon on you with dramonic, I definitely would have gone for it. But it was a tough sell as it was given the facts in the thread.

[VP Baltar]

Even after everything went awful for you personally tubby, I think you did a decent job of keeping the lynch off of you for as long as possible.

[VP Baltar]

Thanks for the (eventual) nomination ckd!

[VP Baltar]

So your whole reason for fake claiming was just for survival?

[VP Baltar]

Out of curiosity Llama, would there have been any way in hell I could have convinced you to lynch Sajin that last day?

I thought about claiming that I only had a bulletproof vest and that I was willing to settle for a "draw" with you because we had both out played the town (which is true), but I didn't know if you had targeted me multiple times for NKs.

[VP Baltar]

I -almost- gave llama the SK potion. Wouldn't that have been a hoot?

I loved the setup. I loved the players. I HATE roles where I don't know what I'm actually doing though.

I think you played it pretty well for what you had to work with, but yeah, not knowing what was going allowed for the scum to lie very easily.

[VP Baltar]

tl:dr...away/in airpot...a draw!?!??!.....a draw....i knew VPB was SK(not town)....sigh*

That's why you died actually....better watch who you accuse next time.