California Trilogy: City of Angels - On Camera (Game Over)

[VP Baltar]

rubs hands together

DON'T WORRY MY BALD-HEADED FRIEND, I'M NOT SUCH A BAD GUY!

[VP Baltar]

HAVING COMMUNICATED WITH THE DEAD BEFORE COMING TO THIS STENCH FILLED LAND OF FLESHBAGS, I HAVE THE WISDOM TO KNOW THAT WE SHOULD WAIT AND SEE WHO ELSE HAS INFORMATION BEFORE ANYTHING IS REVEALED.

THEN....HOLD ON A SECOND....

Death pulls a Riccola lozenge from a hidden pocket within the billowing folds of his robe. He crunches it in his gaping jaw and tips his head back. The pieces clatter against Death's spinal cord.

That's better. Anyhow, then we have the more deceptive seeming of the two of you speak first.

[VP Baltar]

Well, so much for that idea.

[VP Baltar]

DEATH strokes tabris' prematurely gray hair

There, there. Dry your eyes. Death has a killer jump shot.....get it......heh...heh...ughhh.

Anyhow, most of the time when I'm preparing to swing my scythe...

DEATH gives a loving look to the rich mahogany shaft, the glistening silver blade

...I generally hear two things, 'OH DEAR GOD!' or 'mommy'. I don't see a God of any sort in these bunch of broads, so logic says mother is the correct choice.

It is the safe bet and if we are wrong, it would say plenty about that so-called angel Odbody.

[VP Baltar]

DEATH hesitates for a moment as he considers handing over his scythe to a mortal.

Well, I guess technically you are not a

living

being since you're animated. Here you go.

Now, I shall answer your question, Tabris, with a question of my own.

DEATH proceeds to giggle like a schoolgirl for an awkward amount of time.

Do you distrust the cueball and the [quotefingers]angel[/quotefiners] equally, or one more than the other?

I ask because the death of the Judging Ito may have implications toward either.

Perhaps I could conjure a spirit from the great beyond to replace one of you meatbags. Thoughts?

DEATH pulls a massive robe wedgie from betwixt his sacroiliac joint

[VP Baltar]

DEATH munches on his carefully prepared falafel in a mango chutney and tossles the hair of the tenacious little sprite tabris

I believe the first order of business is to summon the spirit in the sky to change out Mr. Odbody if that is what the hounds of hell desire. We have his information, and unless he is holding back anything we should know, the Grim Spectre sees no further purpose for him.

Now, most importantly, what kind of milage does your Evangelion get? I do a lot of traveling and have been thinking of upgrading from my AMC Gremlin.

[VP Baltar]

DEATH slaps Huey Lewis in the back of the head

NEWS FLASH! Your theory is a lot like your music. It sucks. How exactly was Ms. Blue "shown to be part of a cult"? This was not proven as far as I can recall. If you're blindly assuming we have Jim Jones among us just because an SMG was mentioned, then you are certainly taking very few options into consideration.

Now someone get me a basketball so I can show this fool Kobe how it's done, DEATH JAM STYLE.

beatboxes and then does the running man

[VP Baltar]

DEATH straddles his scythe and rides around the scene like an imaginary cowboy intent on laying down some ol' fashioned "justice"

YEEEEHAAAWWWW! Listen here you cattle, I have things to say.

First, I think Tabris is making a fair point against our angelic friend. Why the sudden flipflop on a mistrust you held so close to your chest only moments prior? I listend to you intently in the bowels of hell as you rambled on like a lovelorn solioquist on the many splendord stenches of Mr. Odbody's character, and now you have cold feet. Now you are telling me my patience could be all for naught?

Perhaps you're ready for the business end.

DEATH rudely shoves his blade under the nose of The Angel. It smells of jasmine and the finest metal polish.

Second,

Turning to Tabris

Part of your theory is flawed. It is cleared stated in the laws of the great beyond that any and all Advocates on this plane of existence will *always* be chosen by the decepticons. It sucks I know, but life's a bitch and then you die.

So, the way I see it, the decepticons may have sent their false idol Mr. Odbody with correct information in a last ditch effort to save his miserable life. I believe the information we requested from the great beyond would be of some use to us in determining which of the ladies we trust.

DEATH runs his bony index digit along the hooked nose of the Crone and sighs

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, we cannot know for sure who is handing out the hints. I was under the impression that they came directly from the supreme being, but I may be wrong. The decepticons, of course, know everything anyhow, so they can choose whether or not they want to pass on the correct and full information of the supreme being.

The question here is if the hypo-decepticons Odbody and cueball are more interested in making themselves look good or giving us all syphilis through the wrong woman. It would be a great cost to them to pursue the latter.

Apparently our coroner is still carrying out the autopsy of the dearly beloved.

[VP Baltar]

DEATH looks away from Tabris, clearly forlorn. Speaking to himself.

I...I...have never felt this way before. What is this aching in my bones? This desire replace the Spanish moss and dead oaks along the River Styx with sunflowers and budding willows? Is this the emotion mortals call love? Impossible. I am DEATH. It couldn't be. I, I must not allow it.

Returning his gaze to Tabris, maggots crawl from DEATH's hollow eye sockets and fall like tears upon the ground.

Your oration is quiet beautiful and persuasive. I must say, you are not like any of the slack-jawed meatbags I have known before.

Wiping away the maggots now.

You know, I believe you may be on to something, especially given that you and I, my boy, seem to be the only ones speaking and trying to reach a decision. The rest of our compatriots seem content to stand as silent as the statues from which me must choose.

[VP Baltar]

DEATH slap the Count. The outline of a skeletal hand is clearly seen upon his pale skin

You shut your mouth you whore! Tabris is but a boy with an idea and a dream.

I don't even think you are really of the nobility. What country are you from? Who's the king? If only I had the skin and facial muscles to squint at you.

Besides, what ideas have you proposed thus far? Do you trust the soul called Odbody? Cueball? SPEAK DAMN YOU!

[VP Baltar]

So you have no opinion or theories either way?

[VP Baltar]

Did your information come directly from God, Ms. Garrett?

[VP Baltar]

That makes sense. However, Ms. Garrett, what did you mean by "until the delegation is filled"?

[VP Baltar]

DEATH does a backflip of joy and shakes his fists together in giddy as he awaits the words of the newly enlightened Mr. Odbody.

[VP Baltar]

DEATH awakens from a long nap on one of the church pews. It was a restless, but necessary sleep

Tabris, you sexy lad, I think you have aroused your Evangelion a bit too much in the sense that you believe most anyone inclined to suckle from the Mother is a decepticon.

It is definitely still early in this little farce and even though I agree with you that the evil ones would not be happy about being generally pantsed in the first two rounds, I don't know if they would be willing to risk the lives of two or three members in a single outing.

Let's say for a moment that they had a worst case scenario six members before we arrived at this sanctuary and the littel devil on Mr. Odbody's shoulder turned out not to be a decepticon. Even with all of that, outing three members here would no doubt spell certain disaster for them down the road, as we still have four more decisions left. Maybe if we were one or two decisions down the road, I could see this being the case.

That being said, I believe Mr. Odbody's devil was indeed trying to influence us toward the mother...which makes me believe the Crone is where our best chances lay.

DEATH takes a candle from the nearby alter and turns toward John Locke. He takes the hot wax and begins to rub it into Locke's scalp

There. That'll help the shine. As far as the happenings outside of the church with Mr. Odbody's devil, I think that was a purposeful decision. If they are putting that devil way down in the hole, it was most likely a utilitarian decision.

[VP Baltar]

Given the information we have received, the Crone is at worst neutral.

[VP Baltar]

Sorry, given the information we have, the Crone could be bad or good. DEATH had too much vodka last night to remember correctly.

[VP Baltar]

Yes, what were the opinions on which of these fine ladies to take home?

[VP Baltar]

DEATH, deep in the throes of a mescaline trip, is utterly confused by the Count

[VP Baltar]

Count, did you have a similar dream last night? If so, then I'm ready to vote. All we would need is the go ahead from the great beyond.

[VP Baltar]

And what spectral muse bore this dream?

[VP Baltar]

Angel, do you believe that little devil that previously sat on Mr. Odbody's shoulders was good or bad?

[VP Baltar]

Even if they were both decepticons, I could see Locke giving correct information while the inevitably lynchable Mr. Odbody gave false information to confuse and lead us toward the Mother.

Thank you for pointing out why those in the great beyond believe what they do and why you disagree, but I think I'm set on the Crone now. Just waiting for the go ahead.

[VP Baltar]

DEATH pulls out his travel game of Pictionary, which he never leaves his lair without.

0 <------The Loop





X <--------Mr. Godwin

DEATH then crumples up the sheet and plays a rousingly retro game of hacki sack before podering what in the holy hell is taking the great beyond so long to arrive at a decision. DEATH becomes angry when he is bored, and making him impatiently wait is just asking to be scythed later.

[VP Baltar]

Wouldn't voting the Crone also tell us if Elmo was lying? Also, what does it even matter if he is being lynched? Wouldn't his alignment tell us if he's lying?

[VP Baltar]

Perhaps he would lie when the boot is already on his throat. Yes or no? The decepticons are certainly out in force.

[VP Baltar]

DEATH returns to his sketch pad.

O <------The Loop




X <-------Mr. Godwin








X <---------- The Angel




Hint: Locke brought up the idea of voting the mother to test if Odbody was lying. I was pointing out how ridiculous that is, and the fact that voting either proves if he was lying or not.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, well the point is that it wasn't Tabris or I who brought it up, and I think it is a dumb reason for voting one or the other since either is going to prove if he was lying or telling the truth.

[VP Baltar]

I SAID IT WAS A BAD IDEA.

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Crone

[VP Baltar]

Don't worry about the high number of sould taken under, my dear Tabris. Some of them were but extras, and who really cares about that.


Mr. Godwin is most certainly a decepticon. That was a very pathetic attempt, I must say.

[VP Baltar]

*souls

[VP Baltar]

Ok, guess some of the votes did not count. Let's here this grand discussion you're gnashing your teeth about, Angel.

[VP Baltar]

Perhaps Locke's was an intentional ploy to build town cred while not actually committing to the correct choice of Crone.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, wtf was up with that decision?

[VP Baltar]

Well I would hope it would change. We get advocates this scene don't we?

[VP Baltar]

DEATH coughs

Pardon me earlier...I was just remembering a joke from last night's episode of Seinfeld.

Anyhow, I'm wondering if I am supposed to know anything about which of these shots would best quench our thirst.....

[VP Baltar]

The upside is that I'm reasonably certain most if not all of the people here are "good people", so hopefully this decision will finally be one that doesn't leave us with a hangover.

[VP Baltar]

Well, hmmm, that doesn't do much for us.

[VP Baltar]

How so death?

How so what?

All we know is that the tequilla is not bad. That means it's either good or neutral. IMO, all we can do is go with that information and hope we get the good. The other choices are complete shots in the dark...so I don't consider that a lot of help.

[VP Baltar]

I agree with Dweezil really. There is no legitimate reason not to listen to the barkeep on this one.

Also, I have a feeling we are going to be spending a lot of time in this bar staring at each other with nothing to say since our lovely friend John Locke completely severed our ties with the great beyond.

[VP Baltar]

Let me consult with the Keeper of the Gates between heaven and hell, and I will get back to you.

[VP Baltar]

Thesp, what made you choose your condorcet order?

[VP Baltar]

Ahem, Mr. Jones.

[VP Baltar]

As far as I know, a person can only lose their job by firing or DEATH. I realize I am DEATH, but I'm uncertain if I actually have the power over gainful employment that I do over life. Anyhow, I'll check.

[VP Baltar]

Well, I don't plan on rushing out of this watering hole any time in the near future. Whether we choose to or not, it is probably good to know if we can.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, the Keeper of the Gate answered my questions. He replied to my question about trading places with one of those in the Great Beyond by simply reading me my job description.

When I further inquired if that would affect anyone's employment, he said no.

[VP Baltar]

DEATH carves his name into table at which the group sits. Had he the facial muscles to do so, he'd smile with a great satisfaction thinking about all of the confused reactions of future patrons when they realized that "DEATH was here".

I'm pretty certain it is a decision similar to that god-awful church as well. That's why we can pretty much only have the tequilla. At worst it'll leave us feeling only o-kay and we'll cut our losses.

On the other hand, if this greasy-faced weirdo over here is lying to us, it should be abundantly clear by the outcome of the tequilla.

[VP Baltar]

DEATH is becoming visibly intoxicated as he consumes pint after pint of Samuel Adams Winter Lager

LOOK, I'M JUST SAYING THAT IF I WASN'T THE HARBINGER OF DEATH, AND THE OLSEN TWINS WERE OLDER...WELL.....

He tries to muffle a belch with his cloak.

...DON'T TELL TABRIS I SAID THAT. ANYHOW, THERE ARE PROBABLY SO MANY DECEPTICONS OUT IN THE GREAT BEYOND THAT ANYONE WHO DIES IS PROBABLY GOING TO BE GOOD PEOPLE.

He stands swaying in an awkward silence for a bit before excusing himself to use the "little demons room".

[VP Baltar]

WHAT IS REALLY INTERESTING IS THAT WE STILL HAVE NOT HEARD THE VOICE OF GOD TELLING US THE LATEST IN UNEMPLOYMENT NEWS. I HAVE A FEELING SOME OF THOSE IN POWERFUL POSITIONS ARE ON THE SAME SIDE AND HESITANT TO GIVE UP THEIR SEATS.

ISN'T THAT JUST LIKE THE MAN. ONCE THEY GET INTO OFFICE THEY CLING FOR LIFE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT LONG HAIR.

DEATH drunkenly pokes Dweezil in the shoulder with a boney finger.

[VP Baltar]

I AGREE THAT FIRING NEEDS TO COME DOWN LIKE DONALD TRUMP ON A COCAINE BENDER. NOT SURE WHAT THE HOLD UP IS AT ALL.

[VP Baltar]

DEATH has a queasy look to maggot-filled eye sockets. He opens his mouth to speak, but stops himself short as he grapples with the corner of the table to slow the spinning room. He chooses his slightly slurred words carefully.

Look...I...ugh....what I am saying is that if Valentine has some idea on what the drink of choice..w-w-w-would be at this watering hole, then let's hear it. Do you trust Dweezil? I think you have had...what's the word?....lots of time to learn your history and tell us what you think....

DEATH vomits on the table.

HEY! MR. GREEN! HOW'S ABOUT YOU CLEAN THAT UP!

You stuck up bastard.


THERE, I SAID IT!



OH, COME ON GUYS. DON'T LOOK AT ME LIKE THAT. SOMEONE HAD TO.

[VP Baltar]

MafiaJin was town.

[VP Baltar]

I guess I assumed you were going to reach some sort of conclusion from that information. Have you been fully brought up to speed on events yet? Who do you think are the decepticons?

Also, you could answer my question from early about whether or not YOU trust Dweezil and think we should drink the tequilla.

Feeling much better now, DEATH plays the bars lone pinball machine. His ability to always get the replay and never miss a ball could be classified as some sort of wizardry. Pinball wizardry, if you will. Upon reaching a top score of 45,395,209 points, DEATH attributes his astonishing skills to his incredibly supple wrists.

[VP Baltar]

Oh, and I wouldn't shed a tear if Locke died, but we don't know what developments are happening in the great beyond or if something more important has come out. They are probably capable of making their own decisions.

[VP Baltar]

DEATH is passed out in a corner of the bar, sleeping off his drunkenness. He dreams of puppies, daffodils, and little ducks with more substantial lists with material based upon actions within "this game" rather than a one point "meta argument". Whatever the hell those things are.

[VP Baltar]

So, should we take that as a signal to go ahead with our choice?

[VP Baltar]

DEATH picks a peanut out of his eye and eats it, maggots and all.

I think that is a decent plan actually. I'll wait for approval, but we may as well use all of the weapons at our disposal.

One thing we should consider before I choose who, is who will be going on the boat. Obviously, I do not want to be forced onto the ship if I am going to be keeping my job in the next scene. Therefore, if I am going to have a change of personality, it should be with someone who is not required to be on the ship.

My guess is that Zu would have the ship's manifest since he copied everything down before we came to this bar.

[VP Baltar]

As far as I know, the stuntman position would stay with me until moved, correct? Wasn't there a big long discussion about how we didn't want to move jobs around a bunch because it would narrow the list of who the AP could be? I think that is still important. That is why it is best to not just stunt someone willy-nilly and then have to change the job. Just my opinion, though.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, did anyone say otherwise?

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I would prefer to stunt Gaspar up here personally, but if people are set on Talilan I will go with that. Just waiting from the signal from you guys.

[VP Baltar]

Mr. Green, which of the multiple personalities in the Great Beyond would you like to see appear with my little parlor trick?

[VP Baltar]

Alright, doing it now with Talilan.

[VP Baltar]

I just realized that sounds bad. Ort will be catching if it makes a difference.

[VP Baltar]

Go Go Math Nerds! Explain to the dullards (ie, me) what the plan is.

[VP Baltar]

Carrie puts her hand to her ear.

WHAT! I CAN'T HEAR YOU THROUGH THESE DAMN BUNS!

ANYHOW, I DON'T THINK OUR PLAN SHOULD RELY ON PEOPLE NOT LYING BECAUSE THERE IS SURELY SOMEONE HERE WHO FOLLOWS THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE.

WHAT ABOUT THIS PLAN?

Carrie picks up a cocktail napkin from a passing waiter, unfolds it and begins to rapidly scribble with a black marker she had craftily concealed in her weird space robe. When she is finished she holds it up for the group to read.

Q1: Have the most trustworthy person select a group of numbers (not sure if they should be random or sequential) so we have decent odds of getting at least one Very Good in there. If the answer is no, repeat with a new set of numbers (though I think that is unlikely).

Q2 (hopefully): Have another trustworthy person ask if five of those numbers contains a Very Good.

Q3-7: If above is yes follow Thok's plan of cycling them out with a single selection from the other five numbers. If answer is no, ask about the other five numbers having a Very Good.

If we manage to get a very good in the first question (I don't know what the odds are, maybe someone could crunch those numbers) I think we should just keep working down from most to least trustworthy with the questions. Odds would be in our favor to find the Very Good before it came to the least trust worthy person getting their question.

I think this is a nice combination of the plans and doesn't necessarily depend on noone being a liar.

[VP Baltar]

Happy Birthday, SL!

[VP Baltar]

I know I'm no math whiz, but is there something wrong with the plan I proposed?

[VP Baltar]

Well, Death, I don't think you're quite right. If there were a very good in each set of five, it wouldn't matter. Once the second question clarifies that we have a very good within our set of five (which is why a trustworthy person should ask it), we should be able to quickly single it out with our remaining questions.

As an example, say our second question indicates that the set {1,2,3,4,5} contains at least one very good.

Q3: Does the set {6,2,3,4,5} contain at least one very good?
If the answer here is no, then we already would have a strong indication that 1 is the correct answer. If not we move on to:

Q4: Does the set {1,6,3,4,5} contain at least one very good? etc.

Now, if we get our first to questions correct, we should be able to single out the very good very quickly.

The problem you propose is if there is multiple very goods in our five number set. Yes, that would make us less certain in our final guess, but I suppose we could throw in one question that asks if there are at least two very goods just in case.

I think we might need to use all seven questions to be sure, but I don't think this method is as dependent upon no one lying to be at least somewhat accurate and give us good odds.

[VP Baltar]

SL's plan may work as well, though it does seem dependent upon truth telling all the way around.

I think we should figure out our mode of attack soon though so no one has the chance to lurk near deadline and mess up the plan.

[VP Baltar]

My view right now from most town to least town (ie, the order of question asking imo) is:

VP Baltar
ShadowLurker
MightyOrbots
Goofballsandbaloons
Thok
Talilan
hewitt

Everyone should basically make lists and the highest rankings overall should go first, I think. I don't know how we should do number selection.

[VP Baltar]

So, I didn't even realize that Mr. Green was dead. I'm guessing he was one of the good ones.

Begins sobbing uncontrollably.

[VP Baltar]

For the record, I loved mastermind and your plan sounds pretty damn good. The only problem is the lack of colorful pegs in the middle showcasing the failures of our opponents.

I think if we are following Tabris' plan, then a pro-town player should go last as well.

[VP Baltar]

For the record, I loved mastermind and your plan sounds pretty damn good. The only problem is the lack of colorful pegs in the middle showcasing the rainbow of failures of our opponents.

I think if we are following Tabris' plan, then a pro-town player should go last as well.

[VP Baltar]

yer, I just need to talk because my mind really has nothing significant to contribute here. Let's not forget that my career is dead, so I may as well entertain myself.

[VP Baltar]

Then let's change the order if need be. Put the liar liars in the middle of the order.

[VP Baltar]

MO going last is cool with me. That bumps me up next then, correct? What is the question I need to be asking?

[VP Baltar]

I mean, Dweezil....I was distracted by the Monumentally Overbaked chicken.

[VP Baltar]

I'M ON A BOAT!

[VP Baltar]

So far, I like SL's plan the most. Even if someone lied at some point, I think we would figure it out very quickly.

[VP Baltar]

Kelly, I'm ready to ask my question. Just ask the next four in your given numbers?

[VP Baltar]

I haven't asked the question yet. I will wait until tomorrow morning so people can speak up if they have a better idea. If not, when I log on tomorrow morning around 7am US EST I'm sending off the question.

[VP Baltar]

I think we are best to find a very good first and then we can have the untrustworthy folks go because even if they decide to lie then, it would be exceedingly obvious.

For instance, if I get a yes from my question we know that at least one of the four numbers is a very good. Then we should be able to narrow it down to two with the very next question. If that person lies it would easy to see and we'll still have questions left to figure out where the very good is.

So, not only will we get the very good at that point, but we'll have caught the scum as well. I think the scum actually have a disincentive to lie with this plan because they will likely be caught.

Sending question in the next hour or so.

[VP Baltar]

MF,

Does the set {74, 14, 39, 23, 51, 18, 52, 37, 69} have the property of containing at least 1 very good?

No.

[VP Baltar]

Well, given considerable bias, I don't see why you'd think I'm more trustworthy than you in your own eyes. That doesn't even make sense.

I did cross my mind to just pick randomly from the remaining numbers myself off of Kelly's list given the slim chance she is scum and ordered it specifically to screw us, but I trust her enough and that seems more likely to be something scum would do to waste a question.

Asking a set of 8 may not be a bad idea for the next one, and would still leave us with one question to check for lies.

Perhaps have Dweezil go next and Tabris go last.

[VP Baltar]

How could tabris talor a plan around a random list when we are going sequentially down the line?

The odds of Kelly putting up all of the Very bads and bads in a row is ridiculously impossible if you believe the list is random.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not sure what is wrong with the order we already have proposed, since that was arrived at by a concensus.

Apart from Dweezil going last, I don't think anything has changed.

I personally think that the next person should ask their question so we can keep things moving along.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, sorry Death. I know I said a couple different things when we were in discussions there because we were tossing out ideas.

I like the idea of someone who is trustworthy going last, so that person can be used as a fact checker if we need it. I believe that person should be Dweezil, which is why he was skipped and I asked the second question.

I think the remaining question order should stick to the original list save that one alteration. So, that means the question order would be you, Tabris, Godwin, Count, and finally Dweezil.

[VP Baltar]

Sorry, that one alteration....it's been a long, conflict filled day.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, I agree that is the question Death should ask.

[VP Baltar]

Progress at last!

Yeah, I think Tabris can go ahead asking about four of the numbers.

[VP Baltar]

What is the goal of switching again?

[VP Baltar]

No, it's in reference to Kelly changing personalities. Ask your question.

[VP Baltar]

You can ask about whichever set of four numbers you want, the point is to narrow down our prospects and quickly figure out where the very good is at.

[VP Baltar]

Tabris, I realize that my words could be misinterpreted. You are asking within Death's set of eigh right?

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, those numbers are fine.

[VP Baltar]

Do you plan to eliminate John Locke from the equation? It is a bit strange that he so adamantly wanted to die and now it seems like Huey Lewis may be the one headed for the Great Star Wars Convention in the Sky.

[VP Baltar]

Kelly asked for a sign from heaven if she should hesitate and then appeared the great yellow traffic light.

[VP Baltar]

I don't see what you need to check on now Tabris. We're on this track and unless Death lied to us, we should find our answer relatively quickly.

As Godwin said, this mother f*cking boat ride ends on Saturday (as does my access, see sig), so it is best if we don't spend a lot of time dallying.

[VP Baltar]

Best vision from heaven ever.

[VP Baltar]

That looks correct to me.

Vote: [56, 41], [1-4, 6-13, 15-17, 19-22, 24-33, 35-38, 40, 42-50, 53-55, 57-68, 70-73, 75], [74, 14, 39, 23, 51, 18, 52, 37, 69, 34, 5]

[VP Baltar]

Yep, that's correct hewitt.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, so we need whoever is next to check out 41 for us and verify it.

[VP Baltar]

As far as I can see, yep. Maybe let others check in to see if they have any thoughts, but that should be it.

[VP Baltar]

Carrie is taken aback for a moment at the strange torqoise face bulging from the shoulders where Tabris' head used to sit.

Look, you need to relax. You were flipping out before and wanted to change the plan when we got a couple nos in a row. Changing the plan is not going to help us find the Very Good answer we seek.

If Talilan lied, we are screwed. If hewitt lied, we can check that. We can have Dweezil ask hewitt's question again if we wanted and see if he gets a no as well. If he does, then it almost certainly has to be 41.

[VP Baltar]

Actually, it has just dawned on me that Tabris could be the liar among us. He has certainly been making quite the show throughout these proceedings and it does ring a bit false to me.

What do people think about using Dweezil's question to reask Tabris' question? If it's still no, then I guess we would vote 41.

I don't know. Tabris just seems really over the top and has been shown to be pretty awful in the onstage decisions.

[VP Baltar]

Well, we should be checking the person with think is most likely to have lied.

[VP Baltar]

But if noone is lying then there's not point in checking 41 because it's guaranteed to be our Very good.

Therefore, the proper play would be to check one of the previous players wouldn't it?

[VP Baltar]

I'm inclined to agree that checking Hewitt is the best play.

[VP Baltar]

There's not really math involved. If someone lied, we need to know about it. Right now I feel myself, SL, and thok are trustworthy. So really, it's a matter of you checking either hewitt and clinching our decision of 41 or going back to investigate someone like goofball and see if we're off course with this set of four.

It's more of a gut call on who you don't trust than it is a math thing.

And yes, we do need to decide soon. I'm leaving tomorrow and will be traveling all day, so I need to vote early in the morning.

For now, however:

Vote 41

[VP Baltar]

Why would anyone bold their vote before we are ready to vote? Also, if you are so concerned about it, why are you not voting yourself?

[VP Baltar]

This will probably be my last post for the day.

Vote: 41

[VP Baltar]

Checking 41 would have been a waste of a question. Checking for liars was more useful and finding out that the Count wasn't lying actually improved him in my eyes...though this most recent batch of pouting isn't doing much in his favor.

If anyone lied out of this day, I strongly believe now that it was Tabris.

[VP Baltar]

Ok guys, I'm back from V/LA and will be catching up in all of my game over the next couple of days.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, so the brief few posts here (which I just caught up on) don't change my feeling since early in the game that Starkiss is scum. I want to look back at DGB and Thok's reads on Starkiss, but my memory seems to indicate that they weren't very much in favor of his lynch.

I still think MO is town. Talilan I'm unsure about. Hewitt I think might be town despite my bettter judgement.

zu faul is basically an empty slate.

If anyone who is alive now was the AP, now is the time to speak up.

[VP Baltar]

There is no good reason why the AP should claim now, and not when he is pressured, is there? It just confirms to scum who they should kill between scenes.

Why the hell should we waste time running up a confirmed innocent to a claim and then having to reanalyze the situation? Eliminating lynches with confirmed town is top priority in an open game, as it greatly increases our odds of lynching correctly twice in a row.

I think I have an idea of who it is, and I'm just going to assume the scum do as well, so I would like to get it out there.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: Also keep in mind that we only get one mislynch, so it is best if we do this right the first time and give ourselves a bit of breathing room tomorrow.

[VP Baltar]

I need to do some reading in the other thread, but I'm definitely for a Thesp or Starkiss lynch today. I think it's pretty likely they are the scum.

[VP Baltar]

If you don't agree, then you're likely trying to justify not getting your hands dirty. His [mis]lynch literally provided information.

Do you think ckd's lynch provided any info toward finding scum? If so, what exactly?

You're right, KISE didn't believe the scum claim. Kise is the one who placed the vote on CKD, keep in mind. Extra scum points to you for trying to mix up dram's & my opinions as a singular person's inconsistency.

Guess what, this is bullshit. You're a hydra and YOU're responsible for anything any of your many heads post. If you have a disagreement on something, then sort it out in your QT and not in the thread. It's not our job to separate your opinions and you definitely don't get the opportunity to take multiple sides and then distance yourself later by saying you didn't support the original statement.

I would like to remind everyone that time is of the essence here. Lurking's just going to autoloss the town. We only have less than two weeks to decide a lynch. I would particularly like to know where we stand with everyone else.

I think I have made myself relatively clear. Starkiss is scum, let's get on with the lynching.

Hmm, I really like MO's 1219. Talilan still feels a bit townish to me, but MO makes a good point about the coincidence of how the last scene's choices were made. I'd like to hear Talilan's reasoning for his offstage choices...particularly since he said he felt both GnB and Thok were scummy, iirc.

Tal, what was your read on SL at that point?

re: MO's read of hewitt- I agree that hewitt looks pretty bad, but there is something too easy about his lynch that really bothers me. I don't know what it is because he has basically taken the stance that he doesn't care anymore (a lynchable offense in my mind), but my gut keeps saying that would be a bad move.

I'm going to come out and say I'm assuming zu_faul is the AP here because I'm sick of dancing around the issue. That's the only reason I have him this high though.

Pretty much this. What I fail to understand, however, is WHY the scum did not kill him if he is indeed the AP. I think most people were thinking the same thing after we waited a century for the stuntman to be replaced, and DGB was certainly aware, so why did they kill Sotty instead of zu faul and possibly have the AP land in their hands?

Perhaps they thought it was so obvious that it was better to not risk it landing in the hands of another innocent. I don't know. It's nagging at me.

DGB was generally more trusted than us... we would have left her out of it.

Eh, I think DGB was on a major slide and I wanted her dead even before that numbers scene was over. She was being way too dramatic about her frustration for it to be authentic. So, I disagree with this WIFOM.

---

Thesp, I know you are busy, but I need you to do a huge favor. Can you please go back through the decisions and highlight the final voting records of everyone. When you do this, color code the confirmed towns and scums so we can visually see where everyone sits on these. I will do the same thing with the lynches and we can do some good old fashioned vote count analysis. It may not end up being conclusive, but I'd like to have it there for us to visually reference before we make a lynch.

Ok, I'm going to start on this now...more later.

[VP Baltar]

God I love Google Chrome....had I been using IE or Firefox, that post would have been lost forever.

[VP Baltar]

Post removed. See rules for allowed tags. - Mod

[VP Baltar]

I think it is garbage as well, PZ. I think it is a very good contradiction you brought up.

[VP Baltar]

@the hydras---you can think I'm being unfair all you want. I know what it is like to be in a hydra, and I know it is challenging, but from the perspective of the rest of the town you absolutely should not be allowed to say:

Player A belives X

Player B believes Y

And then when it is convenient to believe one or the other go back and say that is the actual opinion of the hydra. It's not asking a lot for you to sort your disagreements out first. If you are town, then keep the ease of the town's read in mind. And Kise and dram, if you're choosing to do it by PMs, that's not my problem. Sort it out and stop your pouting.

[VP Baltar]

Also, these fucking rules about tags are ridiculous. I'll reformat my vote count post later. I saved it in my notes.

[VP Baltar]

Talilan did you fully explain your offstage choices for the last scene somewhere? I may be missing it, so if you did please direct me to the post number. If not, I'd like to know what you thoughts were and why you put two players you thought scummy offstage with obv-town SL.

[VP Baltar]

before we do anything else, hewitt are you playing this game?

[VP Baltar]

What would people have objected to, at the time, about leaving DGB/Thok/Shadowlurker off-stage?

The objection is that BOTH DGB and Thok were oozing scum from their eyes. Thok the lesser I suppose, but he certainly gave me an uneasy feeling and DGB was essentially confirmed scum after the numbers decision with her fakey fake drama about us getting several nos.

Now, what I don't understand is why you would put TWO people you highly suspected offstage with an obv town. You're theory about SL stunting off is bunk when you very well knew the numbers, as you pointed out earlier, and that we would have been close to getting a worst possible endgame scenario.

The correct play to make in your position there would have been to either a) put two VERY TOWN and one scummy player (DGB) offstage or b) put three very scummy players off stage and hope you chose correctly so they lynch one of their own.

B is obviously the more risky plan, but not nearly as idiotic as the choices you made for that scene.

re: hydras-I don't care if you disagree. Don't have your differences of opinion spill over into the thread. If you can't decide amongst yourselves, then one of you is just going to have to be the bigger person and give in. It's not the town's job to keep your opinions separate.

There was nothing obvtown about Panzer or zu_Faul.

I agree, if it weren't for the AP claim I would want to lynch him right away.


I am going to reformat my vote count analysis and try to get it up again today. Deadline is next week, correct?

[VP Baltar]

Final Vote Counts

Note: Mr. Grey's vote counts are in alphabetical order and not in the order that votes were cast...which is unfortunate and makes this analysis more difficult.

Italics

=Town,

Underlined

=Scum, non-formatted are alive players.

VOTE COUNT SCENE 1

Gaspar

: 3 (

GoofballsAndBaloons

, Talilan,

zwetschenwasser

)

zwetschenwasser

: 3 (

Bagel Eating Cowfrog, Gaspar

, Mighty Orbots)

elmosaurian

: 1 (

MrJellyLee

)

GoofballsAndBaloons

: 1 (

Thok

)
Talilan: 1 (

elmosaurian

)

Thok

: 1 (

ShadowLurker

)

Not Voting: 1 (

Rawr Hydra

)

Current Condorcet Winner: zwetschenwasser

VOTE COUNT SCENE 2

KY Krew

: 6 (

Bagel Eating Cowfrog

,

GoofballsAndBaloons

, Panzerjager,

sottyrulez

, Thesp, VP Baltar)
Panzerjager: 2 (hewitt,

KY Krew

)

Not Voting: 2 (

Gaspar

, StarKiss)[/area]

VOTE COUNT SCENE 3

Vote Count: 4 to lynch.

elmosaurian

: 4 (

MafiaJin

, Mighty Orbots,

sottyrulez

, Talilan)
Panzerjager: 1 (Thesp)

sottyrulez

: 1 (

elmosaurian

)

Not Voting: 1 (Panzerjager)

VOTE COUNT SCENE 4

Final Vote Count: 4 to lynch.

MafiaJin

: 4 (

curiouskarmadog

, hewitt,

ShadowLurker

, VP Baltar)
Thesp: 1 (

MafiaJin

)

Not Voting: 1 (Thesp)

VOTE COUNT SCENE 5

Final Vote Count: 4 to lynch.

Gaspar

: 4 (

curiouskarmadog

, hewitt, StarKiss, Talilan)

curiouskarmadog

: 1 (

Gaspar

)

Not Voting: 1 (

GoofballsAndBaloons

)

VOTE COUNT SCENE 6

Final Vote Count: 3 to lynch.

curiouskarmadog

: 3 (StarKiss, Thesp, zu_Faul)
StarKiss: 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)

VOTE COUNT SCENE 7

Final Vote Count: 2 to lynch.

ShadowLurker

: 2 (

GoofballsAndBaloons, Thok

)

Not Voting: 1 (

ShadowLurker

)




My analysis will come in a few minutes.

[VP Baltar]

@Thesp-can you quantify why you are so assured of Talilan's towniness? What do you think of his decisions this game (particularly Scene 7)?

Also, would you be willing to compile a voting record list in the same format as I did for the onstage decisions so we can have a comprehensive list put together and track individual players' progress across the course of the game. I would appreciate it

Vote Count Analysis by scene

Scene 1

: This scene is a bit of a throwaway because it didn't reach a full majority. GnB bought major town points from me here because she was opposed to the zwet lynch. Orbots was on zwet's lynch here, but his vote (iso 40 off stage) seems for good enough reasons and he did have KY Krew and Rawr Hydra (Pooky) as his next choices.

Scene 2

: I think this is a crucial scene to look at and it probably deserves a full reread. On the scum lynching wagon we have 2 confirmed town, 1 confirmed scum, the alleged AP, Thesp and myself. Now Thesp might appear suspect on the surface because he was the second to last on the wagon (followed only by DGB), but his suspicion of KY seems consistent throughout the day and doesn't appear to be bussing. Also this scene we have hewitt voting Panzer (zu faul) along with mega-obv scum KY Krew, and Starkiss not voting anyone.

Hewitt's vote on Panzer is very interesting because KY Krew does not even appear in his Condorcet AT ALL, and yet after KY flips scum hewitt says "I obviously agree with the KY Krew lynch so yeah that was good." (iso 14).

Starkiss was basically a non-entity during the scene. He did have KY Krew at the top of his voting list, but never actually voted him.

Scene 3

: This is a somewhat interesting scene, but I think we need to look at the onstage scene in relation to it because ALL of our confirmed scum were onstage in that scene...I guess I feel less bad about reaching a bad outcome in that scene somewhat (but not really). If there were any scum offstage in this scene, I would put my money on Talilan.

Scene 4

: I brought the real case again MafiaJin here, so I am willing to accept whatever blame people want to put on me for that. I really did feel like most of the folks off stage were town in this scene. Hewitt and MJ were the only two I really considered lynching. If there was a scum here, it was very likely hewitt. Again, I think this scene needs to be put side-by-side with the onstage thread, because I think the scum were dominating there.

Scene 5

: Yeah, so my top three scum suspects of those still alive lynched a town-Gaspar and DGB didn't vote....this isn't all that helpful. I am going to have to look back and read closely and see hewitt and Starkiss' reasons for voting. Talilan obviously wasn't a newcomber to the Gaspar lynch.

Scene 6

: It's already been pointed out multiple times that Starkiss stinks to holy hell this scene. It is obvious that DGB and Thok lied their asses off on stage. I believe MO is town and hewitt didn't lie onstage, but he might not have had to due to the other two already screwing up the list beforehand.

Scene 7

: Blamo.


My final analysis from just these votecounts is that I probably still want a Starkiss lynch today and Talilan is my second choice, though hewitt continues to look awful and his apathy doesn't help anything. I want to compare the onstage scenes, and now we should be able to single out the scenes that were dominated by the scum.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, honestly. I'm sorry if I was being rude. I just think that you have to keep the rest of the town in mind when you guys post and cut down on the confusion. Just forget about it.

I do stand by my point that putting two scummy people and one non-scummy person off stage was a bad move. It isn't hindsight really because you said you were suspicious of both DGB and Thok.

Explain to me how leaving them off stage would help figure out which one of them lied? Did either of the alternative plans I proposed occur to you when you were making your choice?

Also, care to comment on the vote count analysis I posted? I'm interested in everyone's thoughts.

[VP Baltar]

Thesp, don't bother with the On screen stuff. I'm doing it right now and will be posting it in a bit when I finish.

[VP Baltar]

On Stage Final Vote Counts

Note:

Italics

=Town,

Underlined

=Scum, Unformated=Still Alive. I will put the real name of the player in as a substitute for the character for easy reference, as well as whether the outcome of the scene was good, bad, or neutral.

Scene1

:

Final Vote Count: 5 to Decide.

Follow (Panzerjager): 5 (Talilan, Mufasablade, Starkiss,

curiouskarmadog

, Panzerjager)
Follow John Locke: 0

Not Voting: 4 (hewitt,

MafiaJin, Sottyrulz

, Thesp)

Outcome: Good

Scene 2

:
Final Vote Count: 5 to Decide.

Door 1: 5 (

KY Krew

, Mighty Orbots,

Thok

,

MafiaJin, MrJellyLee

)
Door 2: 1 (

Elmosaurian

)

Not Voting: 3 (

ShadowLurker

,

Pooky

,

curiouskarmadog

)

Outcome: Good

Scene 3

:

Final Vote Count: 5 to Decide.

Crone: 5 (

Elmosaurian

, hewitt, VP Baltar, Starkiss,

Goofballsandballoons

)
Mother: 1 (

curiouskarmadog

)
Maiden: 0

Not Voting: 3 (

Gaspar

,

Thok

,

Shadowlurker

)

Outcome: Bad

Scene 4

:

Final Vote Count: 5 to Decide.

Push The Button: 5 (

Gaspar, Elmosaurian

, Mighty Orbots, Starkiss, zu faul)
Don't Push The Button: 3 (Talilan,

Thok

,

sottyrulz

)

Not Voting: 1 (

Tabris

)

Outcome: Bad

Scene 5

:

Final Vote Count: 4 to decide.

Tequila: 4 (VP Baltar, Mighty Orbots,

sottyrulz

, Thesp)
Vodka: 0
Buttery Nipple: 0

Not Voting: 3 (

Thok

,

Shadowlurker

, zu faul)

Outcome: Neutral

Scene 6

Final Vote Count: 4 to decide

41: 4 (Mighty Orbots, Talilan, VP Baltar, hewitt)

Not voting: (

Goofballsandbaloons

,

Thok

,

Shadowlurker

)

Note: All of the not voting players either voted 41 in their Condorcet or expressed intentions of voting it.

Outcome: Very Bad

[VP Baltar]

Tal, don't let me ruin your fun in the game. I won't bring it up again and I don't want to be responsible for driving anyone from the game. I find it a touch frustrating, but it's not worth making someone not have fun over.

[VP Baltar]

Does anyone have any thoughts why the scum would not kill the obv-AP Zu Faul? It really bugs the hell out of me and I cannot figure out why they would not do it.

Which scene was it that it became obvious because of the stuntman thing, scene 5? And they decided to kill sottyrulz in Scene 6 instead of confirmed town zu faul. IDK, I guess sotty was pretty much town, but why give a CONFIRMED town for endgame.

Ugh, I think I am over thinking this.

I think now that I have put forth the vote counts, we should be able to look at every single player's decisions over the course of the game. Thesp has already touched on this, but I think at least one of the scums (Starkiss) is going to have a horrendous voting record.

[VP Baltar]

Starkiss

Scene 1: On-Stage-Good Decision (Follow Valentine)
Scene 2: Off-Stage-No Decision
Scene 3: On-Stage-Bad Decision (Pick Crone)
Scene 4: On-Stage-Bad Decision (Push the button)
Scene 5: Off-Stage-Bad Decision (Lynch Gaspar)
Scene 6: Off-Stage-Bad Decision (Lynch curiouskarmadog)
Scene 7: N/A

Thoughts: Starkiss has done nothing right all game other than follow Valentine in the first scene, and I can see a lonely scum (all of the confirmeds were off-stage) doing that to fit in. While I recognize that the town has not made a lot of good choices as a whole during this game, Starkiss has essentially done nothing to benefit the town during their entire presence in the game (which has largely been selective). This is why I want Starkiss dead.

hewitt

Scene 1: On-Stage-No Decision (Follow Wiggin)
Scene 2: Off-Stage-Bad Decision (Lynch Panzer)
Scene 3: On-Stage-Bad Decision (Vote Crone)
Scene 4: Off-Stage-Bad Decision (Lynch MafiaJin)
Scene 5: Off-Stage-Bad Decision (Lynch Gaspar)
Scene 6: On-Stage-Bad Decision (Pick 41)
Scene 7: N/A

Thoughts: Yeah, so hewitt is even worse than Starkiss...I don't know why I get more of a townish feeling from him. Hewitt might actually be the better lynch choice today. It should also be noted that in the first scene, hewitt was the one who wanted to drive with Locke for quite awhile despite the advocate information pointing him in the opposite direction

Talilan

Scene 1: On-Stage-Good Decision (Follow Valentine)
Scene 2: On-Stage-Good Decision (Door 1)
Scene 3: Off-Stage-Bad Decision (Lynch Elmosaurian)
Scene 4: On-Stage-Good Decision (Don't Push the Button)
Scene 5: Off-Stage-Bad Decision (Lynch Gaspar)
Scene 6: On-Stage-Bad Decision (Pick 41)
Scene 7: N/A

Thoughts: Talilan has a pretty good voting record overall for the game. I don't like how much noise they created in the game and their choices as director are questionable, but if I am to believe they are scum, then I must believe that they were intentionally trying to make their voting record look decent. This is fitting with the general cloud of ambiguous suspicion I have had of Talilan on and off this game. I just cannot get a solid read I believe in here.

Thesp

Scene 1: On-Stage-No Decision
Scene 2: Off-Stage-Good Decision (Lynch KY Krew)
Scene 3: Off-Stage-Good Decision (Lynch Panzer)
Scene 4: Off-Stage-No Decision
Scene 5: On-Stage-Neutral Decision (Drink Tequila)
Scene 6: Off-Stage-Bad Decision (Lynch curiouskarmadog)
Scene 7: N/A

Thoughts: Overall his decisions have been pretty good, but a bit safe. I think what I said about Talilan above applies here, but to a lesser degree. I personally consider the Tequila in scene 5 to be a good decision, as it was the best option available...but I also believe that was a town heavy scene as evidenced by Thok's non-presence. Either way, I'm not all that interested in lynching Thesp today...maybe later.

Mighty Orbots

Scene 1: Off-Stage-Bad Decision (Lynch zwetschenwasser)
Scene 2: On-Stage-Good Decision (Door 1)
Scene 3: Off-Stage-Bad Decision (Lynch Elmosaurian)
Scene 4: On-Stage-Bad Decision (Push the Button)
Scene 5: On-Stage-Neutral Decision (Drink Tequila)
Scene 6: On-Stage-Bad Decision (Pick 41)
Scene 7: N/A

Thoughts: While the bads outweigh the goods for MO, I didn't ever really feel like he was being manipulative or dishonest in his approach to the game. I vaguely remember a time when I felt he could have been scum, but if one looks at scenes 5 and 6 he back-to-back proved his honesty (advocate information and checking hewitt). Now, that doesn't rule out the possibility that he and hewitt were scum together, but that's not something I'm worrying about at this moment.

VP Baltar

Scene 1: On-Stage-Good Decision (Follow Valentine)
Scene 2: Off-Stage-Good Decision (Lynch KY Krew)
Scene 3: On-Stage-Bad Decision (Pick Crone)
Scene 4: Off-Stage-Bad Decision (Lynch MafiaJin)
Scene 5: On-Stage-Neutral Decision (Drink Tequila)
Scene 6: On-Stage-Bad Decision (Pick 41)
Scene 7: N/A

Thoughts: Not great, not terrible play given the circumstances I guess. I'm open to answering questions about any of my decisions people would like to know about.

zu faul

If we are considering him confirmed town, then I'm not going to bother with his choices.



Conclusion: I've changed my mind. Hewitt is the superiour lynch based upon voting record.

[VP Baltar]

Vote: hewitt, Starkiss, Thesp, Talilan, Mighty Orbots, No Lynch, [VP Baltar, zu_faul]

[VP Baltar]

lol, yeah we should definitely ignore all voting records since you hurt the town in EVERY scene you were in and have done nothing to help the town win.

My biggest regret is talking myself out of lynching you when I had the chance. Live and learn I suppose.

Since you're around hewitt, how do you suggest the town approaches finding the scum? Do you think decisions in scenes should matter? If not, what criteria can one go by to find scum?

[VP Baltar]

Making nothing but bad decisions is not likely to come from town. I will flat out say that right now. If you'd like to do additional research to prove me wrong, be my guest.

That being said, you also have to make sure that a player's presence in the game was of a long enough duration to be comparable (ie, you can't take a player who was lynched in scene 3 and compare it to someone who was in all seven scenes).

[VP Baltar]

Also, the decisions of confirmed towns and scums are all right there in the original lists I posted. I just didn't compile then together. IIRC, DGB had a voting record similar (or better) than yours Starkiss and Hewitt. She at least bussed KY Krew.

Thoughts?

[VP Baltar]

Care to explain why you have time to post in other games but not here Kise?

[VP Baltar]

Also, more tomorrow....I'm drinking and lethargy is setting in.

[VP Baltar]

Honestly, I'm in the camp of belief that there is no way in hell that both Starkiss and hewitt are both town. I dont' even consider it in the realm of possibility. We have one mislynch and I have a feeling this game is going to lylo anyhow, so these two need to be the first to go.

If one of them does happen to be town, there is no way scum is going to NK them. If one of them is town, the lylo decision is obviously going to be a difficult one, but I think that is something that is just going to have to be dealt with in lylo.

So, my conclusion is we lynch them back to back and see where we are at. Two two players are going to be killed by that point as well, which should eliminate a portion of the difficulty and highly increase the town's odds of hitting the other scum.

As for the argument being put forth that the scum wouldn't put their scummiest players in endgame, this isn't necessarily true. Keep in mind that (if Talilan is town), scum didn't get a choice really at all. They only had 4 members left and if DGB and Thok were put off stage with SL by Talilan, they would have had no other option than to eliminate themselves. There was no argument they could have proposed against OBV town SL that would have been believable, so the best thing they could do would go to the auto best endgame for them and stop their scummy partners (starkiss and hewitt) from making yet ANOTHER bad decision on stage.

So, yeah, hewitt and Starkiss one and two, then we'll see where we are from there. If we use a mislynch, so be it. This is the best strategy we can go with in my opinion.

---

I have a couple other things to look at, so I'm not really proposing a speed lynch here, but I don't see a plan that is better for us at this point. The key to winning open setups is to have a good strategy, and this is the optimal one.

[VP Baltar]

About the question? Read the thread for the context, but it wouldn't have made a difference, imo. Even if MO had asked if 41 was very good and got a no, what would that have changed? We would have been guessing anyhow because it was one or both of Thok and DGB who lied in that scene. It would have been a complete shot in the dark either way and we wouldn't have had any better of a chance to get a Very Good with another guess.

Unfortunately, I didn't push hard enough to reask DGB's question when that thought occurred to me. I'm guessing she was the one who lied there, so if MO had asked hers again we would have at least had a slightly better chance of guessing correctly.

[VP Baltar]

VP, can you think off the top of your head any game(s) we've played where you were mafia?

Off the top of my head the only one I can think of is Stef's One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest, but that got mod-abandoned before it really got going...so probably not very useful. I want to say there was another, but I'd have to look at my wiki.

This is interesting. If you're going to lynch me and Starkiss lynch me first so I can sit back and watch/laugh at the rest of this game.

If town wins this game, you deserve all the credit for your amazing insights and helpfulness. But then again, I'm betting you're not town.

[VP Baltar]

Pouting and AtE doesn't get sympathy from me. Let's get this lynch on and deal with your buddy Starkiss tomorrow.

Vote: hewitt

, Starkiss, Thesp, Talilan, Mighty Orbots, No Lynch, [zu faul, VP Baltar]

[VP Baltar]

So rather than contribute anything if you're town and prevent a mislynch, your solution is to roll over so you laugh about it.

Sounds like pouting to me.

[VP Baltar]

Well I'm certainly not going to save you. If you believe you're being wrongly lynched, the onus is on you to prove why. If you're town, you're not doing any favors to your team like this.

If you think your lynch is inevitable, the least you can do is get info and thoughts out there that would be helpful to town after you are dead. You've been on site long enough and I really shouldn't have to tell you these kinds of things.

[VP Baltar]

I don't disagree that there is a chance of one of MO, Talilan and Thesp being scum. It probably is so, but your reasons for thinking Starkiss absolutely being town are pretty awful.

I've already explained that the scum didn't really have a choice in who was put into endgame if Talilan was town, which I am partially inclined to believe. If anyone is scum out of the other group, it's probably Thesp, though he has had some very townie actions in this game as well.

Also, if you think this game suffers from "flock mentality", then how do you explain your horrendous voting record throughout the game hewitt? You're telling me that you arrived at all of those incorrect decisions via independent thought?

[VP Baltar]

Well, no problem then. I'm happy to oblige you with a lynch if those are the best arguments you can muster.

[VP Baltar]

Also, Baltar, StarKiss answer my questions. What is it with you guys not answering?

I thought I answered whatever I missed. Can you please requote it for me.

[VP Baltar]

Here was my reply, zu:

Read the thread for the context, but it wouldn't have made a difference, imo. Even if MO had asked if 41 was very good and got a no, what would that have changed? We would have been guessing anyhow because it was one or both of Thok and DGB who lied in that scene. It would have been a complete shot in the dark either way and we wouldn't have had any better of a chance to get a Very Good with another guess.

Unfortunately, I didn't push hard enough to reask DGB's question when that thought occurred to me. I'm guessing she was the one who lied there, so if MO had asked hers again we would have at least had a slightly better chance of guessing correctly.

Sorry it wasn't very clearly marked. I would also add that my secondary concern in that scene was catching a liar if we had one. Simply asking if 41 was very good would not have given us any indication of who had lied. By reasking hewitt's question we determined 1) that 41 was not Very Good and 2) that hewitt did not lie about his question. That's why reasking it was the optimal play.

[VP Baltar]

Well, it did make sense to me. Obviously we know now that SL's randomization was truly accurate and not a scum-ploy. That means that it is statistically very likely that there was at least 1 Very Good in the numbers that were asked about.

DGB and Thok likely got lucky in that series and the Very Goods landed in their sets, thus enabling them to lie to us about it and keep us in the dark.

[VP Baltar]

I've played with Hewitt before and I've seen him get pretty angry as both town and scum...but I don't recall him being so fatalistic. I'd probably be willing to lynch Starkiss first I suppose.

@Starkiss-leaving 3 scum off stage would have been an optimal strategy that scene. It would have given us a good chance of winning the onstage and at the same time forced the scumbags to lynch one of their own (though the downside of that I guess would be giving them mild town points for lynching scum).

[VP Baltar]

For hewitt (and everyone else):

DGB

Scene 1: Off-Stage-Good Decision (Lynch Gaspar)
Scene 2: Off-Stage-Good Decision (Lynch KY Krew)
Scene 3: On-Stage-Bad Decision (Pick Crone)
Scene 4: On-Stage-No Decision
Scene 5: Off-Stage-No Decision
Scene 6: On-Stage-No Decision

We can see here that DGB made it her goal in this game to never take a side. She was prodding people toward bad decisions and then simply wasn't voting. Scene 1 was really the only time where she took a definitive stance against a wrong decision, and in hindsight we can see that is even to lynch a townie. If you look at her voting on the KY Krew lynch, she waited until the last possible moment to vote for him even though she was saying he was scum.

Thok

Scene 1: Off-Stage-Good Decision (Lynch DGB)
Scene 2: On-Stage-Good Decision (Choose Door 1)
Scene 3: On-Stage-No Decision
Scene 4: On-Stage-Good Decision (Don't Push the Button)
Scene 5: On-Stage-No Decision
Scene 6: On-Stage-No Decision

Thok's voting record would somewhat support your theory hewitt, and I would believe that the scum were grooming him for endgame. There isn't anyone who is alive now that has a better voting record than him. However, you should also note the 2/3 of his good decisions come on scenes where the town made the wrong decision. Not only does this look too good to be true, but it makes me suspect that he had to have had at least one buddy in those scenes who was already pushing for the incorrect decision. I don't believe for a second that town would be inclined to reach the incorrect decision on their own volition in all of those scenes. Just as in a normal game of mafia, you will always have some scum pushing a mislynch while others stay off to build town points. So, if Thok was on the good decisions, who was the scum pushing the bad ones?

Partially I believe it was DGB, but she still wasn't voting for the incorrect choices. This is why I think at least one of you and Starkiss has to be scum. That vote to push the bad decision over the edge has to be there in someone.

I'd like you to respond to my point about the scum not getting a real choice of who to send to endgame. If Talilan is town, do you really think the scum had an option of who to send given that Thok and DGB were forced to get the final mislynch?

[VP Baltar]

WTF do you mean they had no power to control the town! DGB was instrumental in picking the wrong decision in both the Crone scene and the Bingo Scene. Thok played a big part in the Bingo scene as well, and as far as I can recall shoveled a lot of shit on Gaspar.

Also, you're completely ignoring the point I was making. If Talilan is town and made the decisions they made in the final scene, how do you propose the scum even had a choice of who went to endgame?

Stop being emotional and be logical for a second.

[VP Baltar]

I don't know why I'm even bothering to try with you. This whole hissy fit of yours just assures me that I was right in the first place. I really have to stop giving people the benefit of the doubt.

[VP Baltar]

And if you're town, I'll await your full apology once this game is over.

[VP Baltar]

Don't want to rush things. I'm hoping to review at least 2 other players tomorrow. What are you looking for, zu?

To be honest, I do think the only incriminating thing about VP is the player he replaced. Whoever said town is f*cked if he's scum is right. Won't bother iso'ing VP tomorrow since deadline is less than 3 days away.

Honestly, if you're town, I really want to see something significant from you. I gave hewitt more than a chance at this and I don't believe you are both town. I do believe it is possible one of you just made a lot of bad choices, but you guys have to give me some sort of reason to believe that.

Basically, your analysis is the only thing preventing me from calling harder for either of your lynches immediately.

re:condorcets-they are useful MO, but we should still reach a majority before deadline. It makes every player accountable for their stances on the overall game and can show continuity of thought.

[VP Baltar]

If no one is lying it would not have mattered one bit who to check.

I did not believe no one was lying. If no one was lying, then there wasn't even a point in using the last question, was there?:roll:

What was my scum motivation for wanting to check someone?

This is why I hate confirmed towns. They never put any real effort into a game and they say stupid shit that makes no sense because they won't be lynched. It has never failed in all of my games on MS.

You were only mentioning GAB once, hidden in some umimportant sentence. You also said Thok was trustworthy. It was never like you even began pushing for a re-check of GAB.

I never said that i was arguing vehemently for it, but I did suggest it. In fact, I was the only one to bring up any such idea and you can see in hindsight from DGB's reaction that I was on the right track. So, if I am scum for actually suggesting checking her, what does that make everyone else who said nothing?

[VP Baltar]

I dont' think the argument over condorcets is particularly relevent. Let's find the scum.

[VP Baltar]

lol, we really should just lynch Mr. Grey and get it over with MO!

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Starkiss, hewitt, Thesp, Talilan, Mighty Orbots, No Lynch, [VP Baltar, zu faul]

[VP Baltar]

crap.

Unvote

[VP Baltar]

I'll be around near deadline I think, so I'll solidify this (or make changes) when necessary.

Vote: Starkiss, hewitt, Thesp, Talilan, Mighty Orbots, No Lynch, [VP Baltar, zu faul]

[VP Baltar]

Happy B-day, Thesp!

[VP Baltar]

I think you are putting effort in Kise. I didn't care for the first post, which was why I bumped you up. However, I need to review these last few posts from you in depth, plus look at why you weren't on the KY Krew lynch even though you are saying now he was obv scum.

My vote could still change before the day is over. I at least appreciate you're trying so I can solidify my read one way or the other, as opposed to hewitt.

[VP Baltar]

I thought someone mentioned somewhere that the AP could go to either town or scum if the first person died?

Maybe I'm imagining things.

[VP Baltar]

Starkiss-Can you explain why you were essentially a non-entity during the KY Krew lynch? You never even mentioned him (in your very few posts) until after he was lynched. Why did you believe him so readily about the cult when he was very obviously scum? Do you generally trust scum when they are in their death spiral?

[VP Baltar]

It's close to futile to build a case on someone who plays flawless, but suspicion should still, at the very least, be put on those less scummy [MO, VP].

I hardly think I've played flawlessly. I've made plenty of mistakes throughout this game, but I also think I've given a full account for those mistakes and outlined my thought processes as to why I made the decisions that I have.

Other players have not and that is why they are higher on my scum list than someone like MO. Talilan for instance has made some pretty whack decisions as the Director and I don't know if they accounts they gave really add up entirely. Hewitt has shirked culpability for his actions about 1000 times in this thread, repeatedly feigning frustration with the game. If he really hated this game so much, why didn't he replace about 5 scenes ago? Instead he just keeps going "I don't care, this is stupid. You guys do whatever you want and I'll vote with it". I mean, is there a position anyone could take that's more scummy?

Private speculation doesn't serve anyone well. A gameplan should have been arranged with SL if you truly expected or wanted him to do certain things while off-camera. Still, setting it up where 2 scummy/lying players are left with someone who wasn't close to scummy (SL) was a boo-boo move. You share so many thoughts of what was going on in your head and what you thought would happen, but optimal play would have been to go over these ideas with SL. Unless you shared a QT with Shadow (joke), all thoughts and suggestions should have been posted.

I do agree with this. It was rather unfortunate that the travel portion of my V/LA coincided with the between phases portion of 6 and 7 because I didn't get much of a chance to participate. I think i need to read over that time period more closely a second time, as it does not seem like a good game plan was put forth at all and I don't know why. (not just from Talilan, but from everyone else as well)

Really though, CKD created a him-or-me situation. He pretty much overlooked me agreeing with him during the 1st scene due to how hesitant I was to believe his word. He rode that for the longest and it popped up during the time I lynched him. If he wasn't being a dick towards me, I would have tried to question Thesp more for pestering zu_faul into claiming AP or not. As said earlier, I wanted to find other ways to prove CKD's advocate PM was true, but even now I think SMG isn't different from Sci'. CKD got duped by whoever wrote the PM.

And who do you think wrote that PM?

If you wanted to experiment with hewitt or myself, that should have happened long ago at a time when the town's chances of winning/lynching anti-town were in a better position than now.

See, this bothers me...You're not anti-town, you're scummy with a capital S. You have been working against the goals of the town the entire game, and it's a very big coincidence that you and hewitt are trying to push.

Kise, I've played plenty of games with you to know that you're a competent player. dram is less proficient, but he's certainly not awful (I was recently scum with him and won), so how do you expect me to believe that you guys couldn't make a correct choice beyond the very first scene?

I mean, the KY Krew thing was a slam dunk and still nothing from you. The town-Kise I know would have been all over him like a cheap suit and laughed about it as he was strung up. I'm not seeing that zeal here at all.

Shit, um.. zwet, CJMiller, DeathNote, myk.. How trusting are you of their judgment when they're town?

Well, that is neither here nor there because you are not these players, nor do you have their track record. Zwet I can usually read just fine. The others I only have limited experience with. However, I have enough games with you Kise (and to a lesser extent dram) to say that I'm comfortable in my expectations of you both.

I'm saying that going with your gut or beliefs does not always turn out right. We have our good and bad days, is all. Call it BS if you will, but the fact I'm apart of a hydra should relay a hint that I don't have the schedule to stay caught up all the time and make sound decisions.

Well, I think this is a massive and complex game for anyone to keep up with, but even if you were flat out guessing in every scene you'd have a better track record than you do. It's not gut, it's factual voting records and stances I am looking at here.

I'm not Nostradamus. If any of us knew all the right answers, we'd have a perfect game. What you neglect to consider is that this is not your typical game of mafia. Here, the anti-town faction has influence over which players are in the lynching field (off camera) and which players are in the other field (on camera). Not only that, but they know the outcomes beforehand. As hewitt said, checking voting patterns is not as reliable as interrogating players to find out whether they have logical or illogical motives behind every move they make.

Trust me, I looked at motives. Yours are lackluster at best. And again, flat out guessing would return better results than you have done. Like I said, I've made plenty of bad decisions this game, but even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.

I'll go ahead and put dramonic in the spotlight by saying it was his choices scenes 3 through 5, which leaves me as the decider scene 1 and scene 6.

What about scene 2? And this is the crap that I was talking about earlier, you guys are a hydra and your decisions count for both of you. No shoving blame on your partner.

I didn't know right from wrong because I AM apart of the uninformed majority (innocents).

This is laughably ridiculous. "I'm town, therefore I'm clueless."

With no consideration for what we flip. Right. Golden.

I think it is hilarious how much you guys are defending each other as the poor little orphans who are being beat up on by the big, bad master playing scum who never make a mistake. I mean, wtf? I already pointed out that DGB and Thok had better voting records than almost ANYONE who is endgame here now, so your argument that they were the obv. picks for endgame doesn't work.

You guys aren't scum hunting so much as you are making AtE, and it's getting old very quickly.

Can't remember if someone else brought this up, but DAB not firing Talilan (in other words, trusting Talilan to hand her and Thok a quicklynch) makes me wonder.

This is a very strong point actually. Why wouldn't scum DGB want the director's position? I think she had ample opportunity to do it too.

It is stuff like this that bothers me about Talilan. There are too many little coincidences with their play later on that are awful.

Why, oh why, would scum blatantly pick all the wrong choices? That question has a degree of WIFOM, but cut the crap. You would have to give him credit if he's anti-town not to be so foolish (sorry if that's an ad hom -- if you aren't innocent, hew). I would like to think his partners would have instructed him to have a better image if he is in the scum group.

Unless one or both of you was not meant to be in endgame. Scum didn't get a choice of who to send if Talilan is town.


Which brings me to my next thought...it may be best if we determine Talilan's alignment now. There are a lot of "coincidences" with Tal's play that don't make sense from a town perspective.

I hate to change directions around deadline, but knowing their alignment would make me infinitely more confident about Starkiss and hewitt.

I don't know...I always second guess myself. I want other people's thoughts on a Talilan lynch and their bad directorial choices combined with the fact that DGB didn't fire them and take control of the game.

[VP Baltar]

Also, I should be around tonight and to deadline, so I really want to hash this out proper and make the correct choice today. Let's save our mislynch for tomorrow folks if we need it.

[VP Baltar]

I've considered your explanations of your actions, believe me.

If I was leaving people off stage in that scene it might have been DGB, Starkiss, hewitt or some mix like that. Not saying it would have been correct and it could have ended the same way, but SL was obv town and a bad choice.

[VP Baltar]

@MO-trust me, I don't even understand what is going through my own head right now in relation to my list. This lynch is clutch for us and I really want to get it right.

Help me fill in the blanks.

Townilan: Starkiss = scum; hewitt = maybe scum
Scumilan: Starkiss = prob town; hewitt = unsure

Lynching us based on the actions of a known scum would be bad play.

What? How so? Isn't finding connections between dead scum a good thing?

Give me your thoughts on a why a scum DGB would not fire you and take the power seat. I mean, given your repeatedly bad choices, she certainly had more than one opening.

Your 3 picks would have left offstage with no method of communication. Something CKD got villified for.

So? It was the last scene, being vilified would have been the very last thing on my mine. Nor would communication really have been that important since the onstage folks could just do condorcets and go to deadline.

And unless all 3 are scum (possible but by no means certain), would have put us automatically into worst possible endgame. We also would not have got the benefit of seeing two scum flip, because the scum would have had all the time in the world to make their lynch look like a well-meaning one. My picks were better.

lol, Hope everyone realizes the implication of what you're saying here. You're saying you KNEW you put two scum and a town off stage so the scum would quick lynch the town and thus out themselves. Are you seriously saying that was a consideration of yours for putting them off stage?

I'm liking a Talilan lynch more and more.

I also don't have a problem with Talilan's picks for the last scene.

Really? Why?

I somehow want to move Talilan in my scum list a bit forward. I'd say lynch StarKiss first, then Talilan.

You are the confirmed town here and I don't have a problem with your suspects for the most part, so I'm inclined to follow your preferences, but can you explain why on this specific order for me?

Tags removed. Use bold only for voting. - Mod

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Talilan, Starkiss, hewitt, Thesp, Mighty Orbots, No Lynch [VP Baltar, zu faul]

[VP Baltar]

who says it has to be starkiss? Also, answer my questions.

[VP Baltar]

<---Waits for Ortolan to post despite his posting elsewhere.

[VP Baltar]

Vote: Talilan

, Thesp, hewitt, Starkiss, Mighty Orbots, No Lynch [VP Baltar, zu faul]

[VP Baltar]

Because Starkiss and Talilan are not partners as far as I can tell. Right now, I want Talilan lynched today and putting Starkiss much lower on my list is going to enable that since he is the current condorcet leader.

[VP Baltar]

I'll be posting here in a bit now that I've finished my morning coffee and have a chance to do some reading, but first:

ort-why are you saying now that you're not caught up and can't really comment on things when you were posting fully earlier in the day when the attention was not on you?

Basically, I'm sick and tired of all the pity party stuff from the people who are potential lynches today. "I'm town, so lynching me is bad" is not a freaking defense, nor is it going to sway me from wanting to lynch you, so if you are town at least take a page from Starkiss' book and TRY to answer stuff. If you've already answered something, then point to the post where you did.

[VP Baltar]

I'm willing to compromise and lynch Starkiss today, since I think Tal and Starkiss are probably not the same alignment. Right now my preference is Tal, but if you are willing to lynch Starkiss, Thesp, then I would compromise with you on that.

However (and you might have answered this already), if Starkiss flips town what will your thoughts on Tal be?

[VP Baltar]

fyi that argument about us being more trusted than DGB still doesn't hold water, it's not the difference of us being trusted more it's the difference of scum sacrificing 3 of their number compared to 2. Anyway let's not lynch us kthx.

I dont' think that's the argument I was making. What I was asking was why would scum-DGB not fire you and take the director's seat when she had ample chances to do so? If you are town, the scum would clearly want a power position like director so they could essentially GUARANTEE who they sent to endgame. If you are town, it leaves an very major element out of their control, which essentially could screw all of the groundwork they spent the entire game laying. I want you to give me your thoughts on why DGB would leave you there as town.

Thesp, I would also like to hear your thoughts on this problem. It is really my biggest hang up about Talilan apart from their generally bad directorial moves.

edit: ok, I see you briefly addressed this in post 1440, but that seems weird considering that I don't know if the scum would have been thinking that far ahead. It was like what, scene 4 or 5 when Talilan was made director and DGB was assistant. I would think DGB would have wanted that seat.

I've been pondering, why hewitt as the advocate? He was quite high on the chopping block, so perhaps they were putting him on stage to avoid him being able to be lynched?

Except the scum don't get to choose who goes on stage, the director does. Talilan already said they CHOSE hewitt to be onstage, not that he was swapped up there because he was advocate.

Of course, to choose for S7, GaB would have had to fire Talilan during S6, which would have called her question into question, and they had S6 in the bag.

Really? I think DGB around scenes 5 and 6 still had a lot more pro-town cred than Talilan. I certainly would have welcomed the switch back then.

scum didn't want the town having good information (and hewitt was likely to be lynched given most potential three person groupings, so keeping him onstage kept him from being lynched).

Yeah, but it also gave him a much higher chance of going to endgame...why would the scum want that when he looks VERY scummy? This is a sort of counter to my belief of Talilan being scum.....this is the problem with such a huge thread, there is almost too much info to go one and some actions seem to blatantly contradict every single theory I can come up with.

hewitt's also gone dark again.

Yeah, which is ridiculous and probalby a good reason to lynch him. Then if he's town I'm sure he'd blame the loss on everyone else for being "stupid".

I think Talitha's agony over who to keep offstage feels very genuine, and I disagree with your assessment that ShadowLurker was obvtown (I certainly wasn't persuaded). And honestly, I'm glad Thok is confirmed scum, because I was completely snowed by him.

heh, I guess we just have to disagree on this one. (though Thesp had me pretty fooled for the most part too...glad he's not in endgame as well).

VP, I'm pretty much done with you, and am starting to feel like Hewitt. I've answered the DGB thing.

Then quote it for me. Why the anger? I'm human too and probably just missed or forgot reading it. There is a lot of info here to go over. Why wouldn't DGB have just fired you and gave the scum the opportunity to push their top choices through to endgame? They clearly knew the numbers and knew one more mislynch was worst possible endgame.

What's with the lol? I didn't say anything like what you twisted my words into. I am not saying I intentionally tried to get us into worst possible endgame and you are absurd to read that into it. I am saying that I THINK MY PICKS WORKED OUT BETTER THAN YOURS WOULD HAVE.

What I hate about that quote was that you are somehow trying to spin your choices as being positive when they were clearly not. From my perspective on the game, pre-scene 7, you could have made a much better choice. Simple. Perhaps the choices you made WOULD have worked out better than mine, I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying is that, from my perspective, the choices you made weren't logical from a town perspective, but they do very much make sense if you are scum with one of the more protown looking people (Thesp). I very well could be wrong, but that's the two sides of it I see.

I do not want argue anymore. I'm with ortolan and refuse to argue at brick walls.

Where are you guys even getting this brick wall thing from? I don't feel like anyone is ignoring the points you put forth. This pouty act reminds me of when you guys were flooding the thread arguing with Gaspar, except now it is much more likely that you are going to be the lynch. I don't like it one bit.

I'm purposely overlooking his voting record due to circumstance. I would not believe he, as scum, would have been a better pick than Goofball, or Thok for that matter. Considering the other mislynches we've had, I take into account whether it looks like these lynches are heading down the same path. Subconsciously, his age also plays a part in how I view him this game. I overthink when it comes to adult players, and admit I can be wrong as town a lot of times in one game. But, for some reason, I find it easier to evaluate teenagers.

I've never argued that hewitt would be a better choice than Goofball and Thok, what I am saying is that his approach to the game has been scummy and no one has pointed me to facts saying otherwise.

For instance, he said he had some interest in lynching KY Krew and Pooky, yet never really pushed for either to happen. It looks a great deal like distancing to me. DGB and Thok somewhat similar to those two once their scumminess started to show, iirc.

hewitt's anger, while more over the top than I have seen before, IS something I have seen him fake as scum.

And who do you think wrote that PM?

PNIA or Grey. I first think of Grey because I'm not certain whether anti-town can customize advocate PMs.

So you think he was duped by the mod?

I could link/refer you to recent f*ck ups of mine, as town

I'm not without understanding. I've had horrible games before too, for sure. I'm just saying that you can't expect me to just buy this explanation hook, line and sinker when I know you are a capable player. You don't get to compare yourself to killa7 because it's not an accurate analogy.

Lol. Weren't you a main supporter of my mislynch in Open 150? I wouldn't say I have any sort of solid meta because my playstyle is only affected by role, not alignment.

Yes, but so? That was our first game together and your playstyle (as with most new people I encounter) came across as scummy to me. Like it or not, everyone has a meta and I certainly have enough games with you to have a better understanding of your play than I did when we had no experience together.

Same old VP from Open 150, I see. One thing I have to note about our time in "Cuckoo's Nest" mafia is that you [scum] lashed out against me after I dug up some dirt on you. I was wrong about who I thought you were coaching, but I'm seeing similar retaliation here. Then again... same old VP. You need meta.

Again, not an accurate analogy. First, I was on about your lynch well before you attacked me today. Second, Open 150 when we had 0 experience together compared to now when we have had at least 4 or 5 games is not the same.

Let's save our mislynch for tomorrow folks if we need it.

Eh? The context of this post suggest you know/expect a mislynch. Clarify or rephrase, please.

No, it really doesn't. I'm trying to get people to talk (Talilan, hewitt) so we can actually make the right choice.

Upgraded to Windows 7 last night. woooo

Sweet. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it later.

WAIT...did MO just hammer Talilan?


Damn it...answer these questions before night people. I guess I can't complain, but we'll see. Talilan flip should still be very telling.

[VP Baltar]

MO, that really makes me sad. Can I get some more thoughts from you before night.

There has been a lot said in the past 24 hrs. I'd like a little commentary from you on the issues you think are most important.

[VP Baltar]

I'm fine with that plan Thesp. Who's claiming first?

<insert rant about MO early hammer>

[VP Baltar]

My thought exactly. Also, hewitt, if you're still playing this game since we didn't lynch you yesterday get in here and actually contribute.

[VP Baltar]

What about the rest of your info there MO.

[VP Baltar]

You have a role name? <--also at Starkiss

[VP Baltar]

Also, win condition, similar or disimilar to Starkiss'?

[VP Baltar]

who's next hewitt

[VP Baltar]

ok.

Mine is apparently different from the people who have claimed thus far.

Role Name: Innocent Angeleno (picture is of Angelina Jolie)
alignment: innocent
Flavor: I'm a resident in Los Angelos, and I don't know how I ended up in this situation.
Word: Sierra
Win con: same

[VP Baltar]

eh, I'm fine with this method. I want to hear this secret info.

[VP Baltar]

yeah, I don't know what to make of it either. That's why I was asking about role name. I was remembering mine as saying both Angelina and Innocent Angelinio...but apparently it only says the latter.

[VP Baltar]

Starkiss, what are your thoughts on who is scum since Talilan flipped town. Do you still think hewitt is town?

[VP Baltar]

As a refresh, all you're holding hewitt's choices/votes against him?

Oh hell no. Look at his play scene 1 where he was against Valentine driving. Look at how he was "suspicious" of KY Krew yet wasn't on the lynch. He was also "suspicious" of Pooky, yet never actually pushed the lynch.

His general attitude this game has been, "whatever" and yet he won't replace. He refused to participate yesterday simply because the lynch was possibly coming his way at one point.

These are all things just off the top of my head.

Why were you "sad" about Tal being hammered? (before an alignment flip)

Because it was pre-emptive. I was still considering switching to you at the end of the day and that hammer stopped me from having the chance to change my mind if I so chose. Plus, iirc, I still had some questions out there that I was waiting on answers to. So yeah, made me sad.

[VP Baltar]

Yes, that is clearly what happened hewitt.

Still very much fine with your lynch.

[VP Baltar]

I agree with those sentiments Thesp.

I need to put some effort into this game this week and start narrowing down my lynch list. Though I'm still waiting for Thesp to give some thoughts after the claiming, he's probably the least likely person I would like to lynch today.

MO is probably unlikely, but yesterday was weird.

I'm kicking myself for not following through on the lynch Starkiss and hewitt plan. One of them is scum for certain.

[VP Baltar]

MO, you honestly think that if I was scum I would claim the sample PM? My guess is that the role pms don't mean anything and were done intentionally to punish people who lynch by them.

Who do you think is the better lynch out of hewitt and Starkiss today if we go that route?

[VP Baltar]

hewitt is worse, but I won't cry over a Starkiss lynch either. My problem is that while they're both horribly scummy I can't really see them as scum together. I think Thesp is the partner of one of the two.

This makes me cringe badly. Why are you coasting so much here when you know we're in lylo? I don't think Thesp is a good choice for our lynch today since he actually has put pro-town effort into the game.

Unless you're partners with him (which I strongly doubt), one or both of hewitt and Starkiss are scum. It was my bad for not following my instinct yesterday, but I need help getting this right today.

So, I ask you again, which of these two is a better lynch and why?

Maybe we're different personalities - endgames energize me. After all, this blasted game has been going on forever, and we're at a pretty crucial lynching point (as was yesterday). It worries me when others don't want to get this right, and the only one I feel convinced is that way is VP Baltar.

I'm pretty convinced Thesp is town from this. I do think he has been putting in effort in endgame and if he's scum, then he probably deserves to win. I'm putting my official town read on Thesp. I was uncertain before, but it's time to start eliminating suspects and figuring out who to lynch.

Thesp, why hewitt over Starkiss?

[VP Baltar]

Perhaps you should post to not get lynched, because that appears to be the road you're headed down.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, honestly, I think it very much could just be Starkiss/hewitt as the scum team. The only good thing about Talilan's flip is that it guarantees the scum team did not have a choice in who they sent through to endgame.

Like I said earlier, it very much seems to me that Thok and DGB were being groomed for endgame. They had a better voting record than anyone who is alive here now and it very well could have been that their chosen "bad decision enforcers" since the beginning of the game were cornered into end game.

My gut says Starkiss is more likely scum out of the pair, but I don't disagree with your hewitt reasoning Thesp. If hewitt's town, I really don't appreciate his sportsman ship at all. That being said, I could also see this as him taking a page from Adel's scum book and trying to make the game as unfun as possible.

[VP Baltar]

@VP: Please explain why GnB and Thok regained town status Iso 150.

Honestly, I can't tell you very accurately because in hindsight I should have been more critical of both of them at that point. I think I probably felt like they were trying to help determine the best way forward with the onstage problem. I was very guilty this game of giving DGB too much leeway because she was putting effort forth (though always conveniently leading to a bad decision).

Thok had been lurking a lot, so seeing more effort from him likely impacted my read when I should have stuck with how I was seeing him earlier.

The length of this game has probably also not been great for me getting consistent reads on who is scum because over a long enough time period, most people end up looking reasonably scummy.

On a side note, thank you very much for pushing through your burnout MO. Makes me feel a lot better about lynching hewitt and starkiss.