The Dark Goma Mafia: Massacre of the Cloth (Game Over)

[Elmo]

No. You don't get to "disagree". Either you justify what you said or you admit my superiority.

YOU BEEN VOLLKAN'D!

also hi who is scum?

[Elmo]

I mean, really. This game.

Yeah, tell me about it.

No, really, tell me about this game.

[Elmo]

Which fragments and over what issue(s), Commander Hayes?

[Elmo]

Wasn't I supposed to be scum? Why am I bussing here? Why is Benmade bussing Scope?

Do you think I can play an entire game only in questions?

[Elmo]

Prod avoidance post

[Elmo]

hi?

[Elmo]

Plum: What exactly are you asking me?

dramonic: What do you mean, come clean? I'll vote someone if people especially want me to, but why would you want to lynch me? (It'd be rather hard to get through a game without voting anyone.)

[Elmo]

vote Snow_Bunny

[Elmo]

And yes, I am a double voter.
Plum: I don't have anything interesting to report about last night. I suppose it's fairly obvious (if I'm reading correctly, everyone has exactly one power) that I don't have a night action; I don't know if I was roleblocked or not.

[Elmo]

What could Kublai's motivations have been to do that? Either to rolefish or to try to get Rosso/Elmo confirmed doublevoter, which some might press as auto-town.

If anything KK

might

have tried to use the doublevote proof, had it happened before he died, to push his buddy Rosso as nearly-confirmed Town. That's one thing the interaction might well suggest.

Why, pray, are you pushing this while acknowledging rolefishing is plausible, but without giving any argument as to why Kublai being my buddy is actually more likely?

More to the point, why the hell wouldn't Rosso just outright claim double voter, or nonchalantly vote someone and let Kublai (and friends) loudly state that he must be town when people realise? You've compared Kublai's interaction to rolefishing - it appears Rosso was reluctant to reveal he was a double voter, and Kublai was trying to get it out of him. If Rosso was his buddy, why would Kublai need to do that? He'd just claim. Even as you stated it, it sounds a great deal more like rolefishing than anything else - that conclusion is quite unnatural, Plum.

SP, why did you block Plum (and subsequently me)?

[Elmo]

Elmo - Did you secretly vote for Kscope yesterday? I ask to see if Spyrex was able to vote or not.

No, I didn't. I can't secretly vote.

[Elmo]

I did in fact see those, I'd like more detail.

What didn't you like about her stance on KMD?
What don't you like about my player slot?

It's probable that you've at least partially answered both of those before, but I'll get a different answer now since we know more in retrospect, you're likely to say more than previously if I ask you these questions directly, and I am not going to get through 87 pages very quickly in any case. :J

[Elmo]

... a double voter and I am especially suspicious since elmo and his predecessor didn't claim it right away when people were talking about it. Why try and keep it a secret?

Spy, my problem is that I don't want to out anything about my ability which is going to help the scum determine who they need to kill. Even something as simple as outting active or inactive gives a TON of information to scum on whether or not they should target me at night.

Derp derp derp?

[Elmo]

Double voter is not the same as a night ability. derp.

Baltar, I obviously didn't say they were the same thing, stop dodging the question.

Even something as simple as outting active or inactive gives a TON of information to scum on whether or not they should target me at night.

So if Rosso outs the fact he doesn't have an active ability, that give the scum extra information about who to kill. It's the same reasoning behind not claiming your role without a good reason in a normal game. But you were suspicious of Rosso for not claiming it right away when you can very evidently think of a good reason for him not to. So why were you suspicious of Rosso when you're outlined a good (the only, that I can see) reason for him to do that, and on the face of it you would seem to advocate acting similarly?

Now explain your reasoning for keeping it secret, i.e., what benefit does the town receive from you keeping doublevoting undercover when you were suspected for it?

I haven't kept it secret. The first time anyone asked me about it, I voted someone and I answered yes, I am a double voter. I don't know what Rosso was doing, but I suspect it was probably the reason that you've outlined.

cause I didn't like his play, or lack thereof. KK's obsession with him was unsettling as well.

Why do you dislike my

slot

for essentially Rosso being Rosso? I could understand you not liking his play, but do you think he was actually scummy as opposed to unhelpful? What do you mean by KK's "obsession", and what do you dislike about it?

Anyone: Why are we thinking SK as opposed to vig?

Zito: I don't have much of a view on dramonic, I haven't read much of the game yet. I think his comment towards me is a bit scummy, I don't like the way he claimed I was "WIFOMing" people for no particularly good reason; that's exaggeration, it looks like he's stretching the truth to make me look bad.

Plum, answer my question.

[Elmo]

Day 3 was the first time anyone's asked me if I was a double voter that I've seen. Admittedly I wasn't reading very closely for much of Day 2; I was busy, hence "prod avoidance post" and so. I still completely fail to see why I'd try and hide being a double voter as scum.

I'm not going to spoon feed you game content. Stop being lazy scum.

You're given me absolutely no idea why you think KK's interaction with Rosso is scummy. I don't see why my question's unreasonable, or a good reason not to answer it..?

[Elmo]

Okay, I missed the pregame kill. I am surmising here that Tajo killed Kublai. My problem is that Kublai was Mafia and I only skimmed very quickly, but it seems Mafia would have a great incentive to kill Tajo and the SK not very much (unless he was attacking someone else strongly that I missed). I would imagine a SK would have more immediate problems.
I can't really understand why either the Mafia or the SK would target DGB from what I know.
The fact that The Giver was

strangled

certainly supports it being Converter but I'm not sure it really establishes it. But yes, we're clearly dealing with a SK or similar.

1. dramonic
2. Benmage
3. VP Baltar (OMGUS!)

Fairly arbitrarily.

unvote, vote dramonic

I kinda figure Plum, Vaya, Socio as town right now. I didn't especially want Plum's partner to claim, but I figure with Vaya out, she's likely town; VayaPlumScum can happily have that gambit paid of for the short term, as far as I'm concerned. I don't see any particular reason for a fullclaim unless Plum/Vaya want to.

Yes Elmo’s play is quite poor.

Why, in your opinion? Or do you mean Rosso's, or what?

Hidden double vote is a threat to the town until I see evidence that the scum can manipulate the votecount also.

Why is that?

It would be really good if people hating on me could give a reason why, instead of just doing something simple like play normally and abuse the fact that double-voters are commonly seen as town, the mafia would decide to try and get a double-voter through
the entire game game without voting anyone at all or doing anything ever, despite the fact that the number of available votes are listed clearly in the vote count or the fact we started out with 29 players and it's clearly self-defeating. (Note that hiding the double vote for a short while is liable to make the mafia's life a little harder if they're not paying attention, albeit I wouldn't do it.) I think this argument is fairly silly, but I can't really have it floating around out there as-is.

Also, this "zombie" (maybe the word is misleading, but we know what we mean) thing needs to be sorted out post-haste. What the hell kind of town role does that? But, eh he claimed freely, right? Still weird.

This game needs cliffnotes plz.

[Elmo]

Ben, can you explain the distinction between between not being active enough vs. playing badly/scummily when I'm here? When you say "I don't like your play", I thought you mean the latter. And also why you're looking at me in particular for not-active-enough?

I'm not too sure about why #2, yet.

[Elmo]

May I be told why I'm number one on your lynch list Elmo?

This is ridiculous. Dramonic needs to die asap.

This is not remotely ridiculous and you will explain why it's ridiculous or earn my vote, thx.

May I be told why I'm number one on your lynch list Elmo?

I'm sheeping Zito. Direct all enquires to him!

I'm clearly not focusing on you only for your lack of participation if you have been paying attention you would know this.

Yes Elmo’s play is quite poor.

Why, in your opinion?

You aren't active enough. Why did I make #2 on your list?

This is in the post two posts before that one. Are you just deliberately not answering my question so you can mouth off at me or what, wiseguy?

You list me as your #2 suspect and you don't know why....hmmm....bad play much?

Obv obv. Not that I'm throwing out a list I specifically mark as arbitrary because I'm not caught up with the hundred page game that everyone who's been in from page 1 is confused by. I remember not liking the something about the way your views seemed to change very easily to fit the people around you, but I need to read back more to see if that's accurate, and to look at the context in which it happened, i.e. whether it's worth a damn.

[Elmo]

no drugs

Q: cult leader = Happy Hoppy Fuzzy Bunny ?? Plum?

[Elmo]

Cult leader is likely The Happy Hoppy Fuzzy Bunny

In my PM, it says that in my research, I've found out about

The Cult of the Goma

, who tried to destroy the Goma a while ago.

???

???????

[Elmo]

That would make sense. In fact, Occam's Razor suggests that since it's an obviously weird role-name, it's probably not a rolename purely for him to look at, if you see what I mean; that is, it was likely designed for the event of him being role-name-copped or similar. Hmm.

stark doesn't want a hammer now, so I'm not voting either way. Bed now.

[Elmo]

The thing is that stark doesn't have actually anything to indicate tubby's cult, as far as I can see. I can't think that tubby-cult would pretty much ask "are you the seeker?" like that, and I don't see how he'd know stark's rolename anyway; we don't actually know there's a cult in the game if he's telling the truth. And I see absolutely no reason tubby's likelier to be the leader than a recruit. Tho, I can't think of a particularly good reason for stark to lie unless he's a lyncher or some third party with an interest in cava. Shrug.

The giver was killed by the "strangling" kill, which has been present each night. If the cult killed the Giver, they have a nightkill. I'd consider the idea that the cult may not be a Mafia Cult.. I have difficulty seeing how a recruiting cult works in a power role game. Having said that, as I said earlier I do think that "throat slit" is likely to be the converter kill, so I'd seriously entertain the idea that someone else strangled her.

Claiming to have hidden behind a dead guy is something of a bigger issue - maybe we're missing the forest for the trees? I would actually be pretty enthusiastic about Battle Mage dying, too.

[Elmo]

Point.

vote Battle Mage

[Elmo]

Yep, one of ben and elmo are scum, guaranteed.

..sorry, how? That looks pretty freaking scummy. There's no conflict between what we've said about our roles, and it's very natural that we'd both be town, moreso because he talked about halving a vote as opposed to reducing it to a half, implying the mod didn't design the role with targeting me in mind. So what the hell?

A claim from elmo would help matters.

I already claimed my role; I don't really see how claiming flavour can help, but I guess it can't hurt, either. I'm the Dark Goma Influencer; I've been trying to fix what I perceive as a broken system of government, so some might suspect I was involved with the Giver's death; I assume the converters killed the Giver. My vote counts twice.

[Elmo]

Yeah, see, I highly doubt there are TWO town roles that mess with the VC. But that's just me I suppose.

I'm drawing a blank on why that would be. Both double voter and (less so) vote thief/nullifier/halver/whatever-er function perfectly well as town or scum roles, in isolation or together. I'm not particularly convinced that the town needs a countermeasure to a scum doublevoter beyond, say, a convenient rope; if it

required

one, it still seems fairly week to me because the double voter would be scum more often in a game with a countermeasure than without, but there's no analysis of how much more often; it might well be negligibly more if scum double voters are rare to begin with, which I believe they are. Honestly, I'd be much happier if I understood the reasons behind your conviction about this kind of thing, as opposed to you taking convenient potshots at me.

Your flavor says some might suspect you of being involved in killing the Giver?

Loosely, yes. As I understand it, it would give me a necessary opening if I were looking to supplant her (the Giver's gender isn't mentioned in my PM, I'm going by the first post) as the council leader, seeing as I'm already influential. This isn't so, but one wouldn't know that. I think it's accurate to say that an observer might perceive me as having a motive to kill her if I were a bad person.

Elmo, can you explain how Stark's flavor and yours can both be true?

I don't see a contradiction. Bearing in mind what I said earlier, I find it notable that I

assume

it's the converters.. I'm more inclined to believe Stark's flavour on that basis, since he believes but doesn't

know

who killed the Giver. I don't really know what you mean apart from that.

[Elmo]

Well, increasingly I think you're full of it. You've stated basically no reason to think I'm scum, but apparently you take any opportunity to attack me for some voting mechanics reason and then ignore most of my response to it. Why?

"LyLo balance"? I'm a double voter. My vote counts twice. If you think LyLo hits when we have ___ people alive, and you think I'm scum, you need to lynch me the day before. It's not exactly rocket science. More to the point, if I'm scum, you'd need to

lynch me

at some point to win, not bugger about with voting mechanics.

On a basic level, the "to lynch" requirement is calculated as a proportion of votes, not players. For example, if there were 5 people alive, there would be 6 votes in play, and it would take 4 to lynch. So although I haven't gone through everything (given that I don't know precisely what you're worried about) I'm actually having difficulty finding a spot where my extra vote makes a difference if I'm scum. What specific circumstance related to LyLo is me being scum worse than a normal voter being scum? Even that isn't clear.

In related news, even if the voting didn't work like that, if I'm part of (say) a 4-living scum group, my double vote only tips the scales if we have <=9 people alive, not before. If he's town, Benmage has good odds to be dead by that point, considering we started with 29 people. If we lynch a scum or two, his chances of being around when it counts are reduced to "probably not". And what happens if we

get

to 9 alive, Benmage keeps using his ability on me, and we lynch scum other than me a couple days in a row... and then Benmage gets nightkilled? Oops, shoulda used the rope. So it's a pretty weak 'countermeasure' to begin with, and just lynching me is pretty much always preferable if I'm scum.

Yeah, see, I highly doubt there are TWO town roles that mess with the VC. But that's just me I suppose.

So this looks wrong in actuality, but also wrong from the perspective of looking for scum as opposed to manufacturing reasons why I'm suspicious. As in, repeatedly pointing out the fact I'm a double voter and trying to make that suspicious by closing your eyes and wishing really, really hard.

[Elmo]

Btw, am I the only one who finds odd that Elmo's roles is the only one that appears in the mod descriptions? Sounds like the DGI is really an npc... Well, at least to me.

So, purely by chance, I managed to accurately guess the name of a NPC who hasn't been referenced before... perhaps sometimes flavour is just flavour?

Does anyone talking about lynching me want to give an argument for it anytime soon, considering I've been pretty much asking since I replaced in? A bunch of people've been silent on me, then come out of the woodwork now to be like "lol lynch tiem". SpyreX less so, but a case would be nice?

vote Battle Mage

for testing purposes, anyhoo.

[Elmo]

The name of your named character has been mentioned from the beginning.

Oops, you're right, that's what I get for not paying attention to flavour... scratch that!

The thing that bothers me though is that when you claimed flavor, you didn't mention anything that might suggest this sudden weird behavior in the lynch scene. Do you know anything about it?

I don't know anything in game terms. I don't

think

it's significant in-game; If I was going out on a limb, I might theorise that charismatic people are often written as being very.. intense and probably borderline domineering, and that would make sense here; looking back, it seems to be a progression, something similar's very visible in the Day 2 lynch flavour. Honestly, if the mod were going to write flavour for someone with a rolename, I would expect him to do it in a way that remained ambiguous about alignment; you can read the influencer as pretty much any alignment you like. Anyway, we'll see what the mod intended.

I don't know about Stark. I still stick loosely to what I said yesterday - I'd seriously entertain and mildly lean towards the idea the converters didn't kill the Giver, but I'm not really seeing a Cult-cult here. I'm not sure why this Really Matters. Battle Mage's behaviour is quite weird for a scumbuddy in retrospect.

Benmage, you targeted me again?

[Elmo]

On reflection, this is probably a good idea unless someone can come with something more pressing for milkshake to do. In particular, my Role PM indicates my power usually soothes and reassures the people around me, so this would seem somewhat out of character... that's disquieting.

I doubt it'll have an effect, but we have to assume milk's role is good for something, and I can't see a better place for it.

[Elmo]

I'd put stock in one of Ben and Elmo being scum. Vote manipulation gives me the heebie jeebeies and BOTH having it is a scary situation. I'm leaning, DUH, hard on Elmo being the scum.

I dont think Elmo is town. Two town vote manipulators doesn't seem logical to me. I am obviously town.

You and everyone else who's said or thinks similar:

1. Why can't there be two different town roles that affect voting?
2. Why me and not Benmage? (Benmage is exempt from this question. >_>)

[Elmo]

Two different town roles affecting voting is an unparalleled swing that I wouldn't be down with.

SpyreX, do you really believe this is a helpful answer to my question?

Why

do you think it is not likely?

[Elmo]

How do you feel Benmage has been townish?
Why weren't you aiming to be helpful - are you even interested in talking to me?
You realise that the scum have this thing called a nightkill, right? That very likely one or both of me and Benmage dies before LyLo if we're town? Also, obviously I can't hide the fact I'm a double voter; they can off me whenever.
Do you think my slot's activity justifies a lurker lynch? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were against lynching for policy reasons.

[Elmo]

To paraphrase:
SpyreX: The mod would not put both a town vote-halver and a town doublevoter in the setup as this makes LyLo close to unwinnable for scum.
Elmo: But it's very likely that at least one of us is nightkilled before LyLo, especially in a 29-player game with this many kills per night. And the scum know I am a double voter, so they can easily eliminate me if needs be.

Saying you doubt I will be nightkilled

from this point

does not answer the objection. Relatedly, talking to me should help you if you're town because if you're right, it should make you more confident, but if you're wrong, you might realise you're wrong. But you don't seem to be making any attempt to find out whether you're wrong or not, asking me questions or even talking to me; you're just happy to go "lynch plz" relying on outguessing the mod and not actually analysing your reasoning for that. If you're town, it's bad play.

[Elmo]

Oh. I also want to hear from Elmo as to whether anything happened last night.

Popping in to say nope, nothing.