California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[Gaspar]

ckd, explain to me how it is fair to decide a person's lynch while they are onstage and can't defend themselves.

you can turn this around as much as you can....I am not the only person who votes gaspar...why not say that with the other two stuntman switch lynches?

and my scum choices have not changed.

No, GIVE ME AN EXPLANATION. Why is it fair to pick a jury and then decide the lynch without discussing with the accussed? Because that is what you wanted to do today.

Why haven't I said this before? Because I wasn't playing the game then.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

No, GIVE ME AN EXPLANATION. Why is it fair to pick a jury and then decide the lynch without discussing with the accussed? Because that is what you wanted to do today.

Why haven't I said this before? Because I wasn't playing the game then.

Again, you weren't fucking complaining when KY Krew was lynched.

That was a specific instance where we needed to use the stunt ability to get KYKrew offstage, right? Didn't they HAVE to go onstage despite being pretty much outted scum? So yes, stunting them in for death was good idea.

I fail to see how that is the same as ckd rallying his "oh so pro-town posse" around a player that he could have easily kept offstage and chose to send onstage. The only reason to do that, it seems to me, is to keep the player from defending themselves. It's so much easier to convince people to lynch another player when they are not there to defend themselves.

[Gaspar]

All this talk of lynching me amuses me to no end. EK, check QT real quick.


Thok, you've been pretty certain for most of the game that I'm protown. Does it by any chance have to do with my first actual post? A simple yes or no would suffice. If you're thinking what I'm thinking, I might be able to break the game wide open.


Also, CKD, EK is absolutely right. The idea that you would put the "scummiest" people on stage, decide which of them to lynch, and then pretend that you gave them a chance to defend themselves is ridiculous. Suppose you stunted me offstage, and I claimed information that made you absolutely NOT want to lynch me? What would you do then? You would have WASTED your stunt on a player you couldn't feasably lynch, then you'd be pretty much completely stuck with that player and a bunch of players you think are protown. (By the way, this example is purely hypothetical, I'm not claiming anything one way or another)

[Gaspar]

CKD, if you had left Gaspar offstage from the start, I (Glork) would have been fine with that. At the very least, you would have given me an opportunity to defend myself with the potential to lynch elsewhere, if I did convince everyone I was protown.

Krew's example is different, as EK said, because he was like 99.999999999% confirmed to be non-Innocent. That was a very clear-cut "Krew is scum" situation. This situation is completely different, because there is a very clear subest of players who think I am likely protown, and obviously they have very good reasons for that.

[Gaspar]

We've pretty much all been saying "Gaspar is scum" too. The situation is not all that different at all.

- I think Gaspar is town

Hey, maybe I think Glork is reasonably easy for me to read since I've played a lot of games with him, and I know the sorts of tricks he uses as scum.

've been moving in a more positive direction on you despite some earlier misgivings.

Weak Town
Angel, played by Gaspar

Angel, played by Gaspar - 50:50

I'm just going to leave these other quotes here.

Also, to respond to one of CKD's posts about me:

1.) he knew yesterday when there were kills, so why is he acting like he doesnt know today..

The answer is actually pretty simple. I didn't think to look at the playerlist when I got back. That post was a simple case of "Glork got back from a week of work travel and wasn't thinking." Also, that post doesn't say anything about alignments anyway, which would have been helpful information if someone *had* been killed. So yeah, I wasn't really thinking about the playerlist post, but I think I'd still have vaild reason to ask the Off-Stage players if there were corpses.

Either way, I'm failing to see how "Glork didn't look at the playerlist or read the scene" translates to "Glork is scum." I'd love an explanation, CKD.


Pooky: I meant what I said, and I had limited access at the end of the day. When I got back, I was already in-scene, so I expected Thesp to follow through on giving analysis of everyone. I'm pretty sure I know why Thok believes me to be protown, and if he can confirm that (without telling everyone), I'm pretty sure I can rule out a number of potential scumbags.

Okay for one thing Gaspar quit blaming all that talk on CKD. Don't go after the easy target like that. We ALL agreed that the scummiest players were On-Stage and we ALL were deciding which one of you guys we wish we could lynch. So if you're going to attack CKD for that attack all of us. Quit deferring everything on to him.

In all fairness, CKD did choose who would remain on-stage and who would stay off. What I'm failing to understand is why CKD would

consciously choose to put Talilan, Glork, and Thok onstage

, considering we've taken most of the flak leading up to Scene Four. If he expected one of those three to be lynched, he should have given them an opportunity to defend themselves pre-Stunt, so that if they claimed valuable information, then everyone would be able to select a secondary target.

Also, regarding the AP not making a Stuntman: I think it is likely that the AP either forgot to name a Stuntman, or that they didn't feel comfortable naming one at the time. I'm not really going to elaborate much more, because I don't think the time is right to be discussing who the AP is.

[Gaspar]

we're just waiting on zu right? That is of course assuming that they can even do it from on stage if that is where the AP is at.

well zu has posted...sort of thought that was the reason we hadnt had a stuntman yet..at any rate.

unvote, vote MafiaJin

VP and CKD, why were you publicly speculating that Zu_Faul is the Assistant Producer?

How, in any way, shape, or form, is this helpful to the town?

[Gaspar]

plz glork

thok didn't "break down the game" like you asked him to and you let him go on that.

You also didn't make a big post saying THOSE PEOPLE OFFSCENE BETTER MAKE SURE THESP IS BREAKING DOWN THE GAME LIKE I ASKED HIM TO. the fact you didn't follow up on your own demand is pretty clear evidence you were only putting up a show. just like you are putting up a show right now with the whole breaking down the game crap.

This hero-glork coming to save the town act is old.

1) I concede the point about Thok. I didn't follow up on him, and I should have. But as I stated On-Camera, once I was put in the Scene, I was more concerned about coming to the right decision than anything else. And if you'll note, I did poke and prod Thok once I returned from my V/LA.

2) Thesp gave me a list of gut impressions right when I asked him to break down the game. Even though it wasn't 100%, and he didn't wait until the scene had started, it satisfied me initially. I expected Thesp to elaborate more... but again: My primary focus was on making a good Decision, not what one player Off-Stage was thinking at the time. Thesp is not a player I should ever have to babysit. When I ask him to do something, I expect him to do something. When he gave an initial effort, that convinced me that he would actually go through the playerlist and give his opinions on everybody. Needless to say, I am disappointed that he did not. But if I were to remind everyone at every opportunity, how would I know whether Thesp is stepping to the plate of his own accord?

[Gaspar]

Funny. Another player states they suspect Talilan, and now suddenly they are "obviously scum," according to Talilan.

[Gaspar]

I have not seen a good justification from ckd why he would put all players he thought were town into the lynchpool.

I have not seen a good justification from ckd why he would want to decide who to lynch from the onstage players who cannot defend themselves because they aren't offstage, then stunt them in for the execution.

I have not seen a good explanation from anyone (I'm looking at you, VP Baltar) why we should keep our thoughts/reads private during the pre-scene time.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

VP Baltar, I am not asking your permission to talk about who I think is scum. I am telling you and everyone else that I think it is helpful to town to reach a consensus when we are all together, and I think it is scummy for you to discourage it.

I went and ISOed you since you refuse to state your thoughts again and want to make me do more work.

I think ckd is right about keeping quiet ahead of the scenes. I'm not quite finished with my reread, but I think we got duped yesterday in terms of who got chosen as advocates. I think we should save our suspicions until after the scene starts so the scum can't use it against us in their decisions.

Just noting how far your head is stuck up ckd's behind. I noticed last scene how he said maybe he should just be lynched because people are suspicious and you were all "no, ckd, we loooove you don't die!"

So, am I right that with the elmo lynch that elmoyos got appointed advocate, and it looked like an attempt to avoid their lynch? Is that what you mean my scum played the town?

I think you made a bad assumption about the elmoyos lynch. I don't think you can blame it on him being appointed advocate.

I think that elmoyos was already probably going to die because people thought they were scum, not because they got put in as advocate. I'm sure the advocate thing didn't help, but I don't think it was the bulk of the reason why they got lynched. I don't think that the town "got played" because they gave their scumlists or were scum hunting like normal. I think the town was just wrong. Happens in every game of mafia. I see no reason to start hiding our suspicions.

Again, indicating to the scum who is likely to be lynched in the next scene is a BAD IDEA. Openly strategizing before the scene starts is a BAD IDEA. I know we all have a lot to say, but I think waiting until the scene starts for a majority of these things is going to be infinitely more beneficial to us than spilling our plans and then giving the scum a chance to plan around those plans like they did yesterday. Everyone who is spurring on these types of discussions right now has jumped in my scumdar.

I still don't understand this. What advantage can scum gain?

Town gains a lot by coming to an understanding who is scummy and who is not:
1)They know who to trust onstage
2)They have a better idea who to lynch offstage due to getting all opinions
3)People seen varying from overall consensus are probably scum and easier to spot as scum.
4)Director and other roles can do their job better or be held accountable if they vary from town consensus.

Scum are already coordinating (whether they can speak all the time or not). We know this... it is what scum do. Why rob town of their only opportunity to coordinate and strategize?

the scum conveniently NK the town people from our list and bump up scummy people like they did yesterday

Which is the same thing that happens in any game of mafia. I don't think we should stray from the normal way we play. Hiding suspicions is not helpful. If scum NK pro-town players who are saying smart things, we go look at their posts and try to follow their leads. They can't kill everyone at once. The benefit of talking through suspicions and getting a dialogue going, and finding players you trust as fellow towners, is much greater than any loss we might sustain by losing a towner to NK.

Besides, you are assuming scum can't tell which way people are leaning. If they get a whiff of someone who is on to them, they will get the NK regardless if they just mentioned one tiny thing or if they made a whole case and tried to convince other townies. And I would rather hear their case before they die.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

I thought we don't have advocates anymore? Is that going to change, because last scene we didn't.

VP, I think that the benefit of getting the town discussing and coordinated is worth the risk that scum might strategize around us. Deciding to have no strategy and no coordination is not exactly a way to win a game.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

VP, you seriously think I'm scum?

I think that the recent attacks on Gaspar are lame. Pooky says Glork is "trying to play the hero." Yeah, how horrible. We're trying to help and win the game. Since when is this a bad thing?

I'd like to point out that VP agreed about Glork playing the hero and that it was so horribly scummy. VP has a history in this game of supporting everyone else's bad ideas, sort of buddying and encouraging anti-town ideas. Whether it's "glork playing the heor is scmmy" or agreeing with ckd about everything (like not strategizing, or trying to put only town people in the lynch pool).

Anyone can have a bad idea on their own. Sometimes it's scummy, sometimes it's not. But it's so much scummier IMO to sit back and encourage bad ideas. Because it is a way to undermine the town while putting the blame on someone else.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

I have read everything that happened while I was onstage yesterday thank you very much. So you can stop beating the elvis-doesn't-know-what-she's-talking-about drum. There's a chunk of stuff I am missing around the elmo-yos lynch, but that's it.

VP, let's be clear. During the offstage scene 4 you didn't say anything bad about ckd's decision to put all people he thought were town in the lynchpool. You asked him his reasons in post 1515, he answered in post 1518, explaining his decision to put everyone he thought was scum onstage. You didn't really respond to his post or tell him this was bad.

In fact you were saying ckd is so town and you didn't want to lynch him.

You WERE upset that you couldn't use the stuntman ability to stunt in a victim, that much is true. You did not want to lynch from the people offstage, but you did not say ckd made a bad choice. You didn't say anything bad about ckd's decision until I brought it up after the scene.

Your only problem with the situation was not being able to stunt in the victim.

You were not mad at ckd or disagreeing with his decision.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

In fact you were saying ckd is so town and you didn't want to lynch him.

I didn't want to lynch him. What the hell is your point?

That you are scum. Probably ckd too.

Also, where is all this awesome strategizing you were planning on doing during the pre-scene, since I am so clearly wrong. You haven't even indicated who you think is scum or anything about keeping people on and off stage.

I've been pressuring the people I think are scum. If you can't figure out who that is then maybe it is YOU who is not reading.

Seriously, you expect me to catch up on a bunch of the thread that I haven't read, plus fight with you all day, and be able to strategize? All in one or two days? It's not humanly possible. Maybe beans can do it, but not me.

Also, last time Glork talked about breaking the game everyone told him he was scum trying to play the hero. You are being so unfair, and so hypocritical.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

if we would have gotten the fucking stuntman in and yanked either you or Starkiss out from off stage and lynched your ass(after you had time to "defend" yourself)...would you still say my choice was bad?

Obviously yes. I object to any plan where you pack the offstage with a group of your toadies and then rally them around somebody who is onstage and can't defend themselves. Letting them defend themself after they are stunted in is a complete farce. You're not going to change your mind after you've agreed everyone else is town and the stunted person is lynchbait.

also, gaspar, can I see your list of who stays and goes tomorrow..in your next post, that would be great. Also, I would like to see the order of preference too..that is important.

I'm working on it.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

VP, we are not scum hunting?? What?

I think I've been pretty clear about who I think is scum. But I will give you a complete list if that's what you want.

curiouskarmadog - scum
Gaspar (Glork/elvis_knits) - town
GoofballsAndBaloons (DrippingGoofball/BridgesAndBaloons) - I go back and forth on her. I think lean town.
hewitt - scummy but I'm starting to think it may be a playstyle thing
Mighty Orbots (Papa Zito/Zorblag) -town
PookyTheMagicalBear, replacing Rawr Hydra S2 - slight scum
ShadowLurker - town
sottyrulez (Sotty7/Zachrulez) -town
StarKiss (Starbuck/Kise/dramonic) - slight scum
Talilan (Talitha/ortolan) - scum
Thesp - not sure
Thok - not sure, I think lean town
VP Baltar, replacing ThebladethatkilledMufasa S2 - scum
zu_Faul, replacing Panzerjager S4 - not sure

You'll have to ask Glork if he agrees or not. I pretty sure he disagrees with some.

And as for me not reading the whole thread... do you think that I need to read the whole thread to be able to comment on anything? I don't see how it would make me magically think that the ckd plan of "rally the toadies and stunt in the victim" is a good plan.

BTW, I never said the toadies are all scum. I think some were scum and some were people he thought could be manipulated for whatever reason. It's not that hard to sell a case on a player who isn't there. So much easier without having to deal with pesky defenses.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Glork here.

Glork's fishing for the AP after denouncing it is stupid.

No. I'm offering explanations for the AP's behavior. Go back and read what I said. I would know better than to fish for the AP. That's exactly why I'm calling you and CKD out for acting like idiots.

Glork's playing the "hero", as Pooky puts it, is indeed scummy.

I want you to explain, in your own words, how you feel I am "playing the hero," and how that is scummy.

further more, if I was scum (WIFOM) why would I talk about it in game? Wouldnt I just keep it to myself. If you read the fucking thread, you will see that I was the one holding off the damn lynch until I was sure everyone saw the stuntman pic...if I was the AP, I would have waited until another player posted before assigning, but I wanted to give him or her that chance. so you can back off.

Point out where in my post I said it made you scum. It makes you really fucking stupid, but it doesn't make you scummy.

Let me put it this way, Thok: If you've been thinking what I'm thinking, and you were scum, there's a very decent chance you'd have had me nightkilled already, in spite of my front-and-center status.

MO I still don't know what "22" means, sorry.

Filter my On Camera posts, and then look at my 22nd post. That's the post in which I explained exactly how I felt about the decision. You said my decision was "baseless," and Orbots is saying "no, in Glork's 22nd post of the On Camera Thread, he explained in great detail how he arrived at his decision."

trying to determine whether someone has played horribly is a really dumb thing to do in the middle of the game. I'm sure when most of my suspects flip scum you will still come up with some terrible argument for why I still "played horribly", meh. You just can't win with certain towns, they're just composed of too many stubborn/incompetent/ severely hypocritical players.

Well, between MrJellyLee and Elmosaurian, you're 0 for 2 so far. But I applaud VP for being the only person aside from me/Thok to go "wow, Talilan is just OMGUSing everybody who attacks them, deciding that they are 'obv scum.'"

Let me give you a giant fucking hint, Talilan. If I'm scum and you're protown, I want you alive as long as humanly possible, because even if you

are

right about everybody, you're such a divisive and obnoxious player, that you're nothing more than a distraction to the town anyway.

Yes, one us and Gaspar is scum- we've known this all game, and have been continually frustrated at town's failure to lynch him (it's not my fault you've managed to go 4 scenes without lynching the obv-scum).

Will you 100% guarantee this? If I'm lynched as a protown player, will you stand down and allow yourself to be lynched as scum the following day?

One final thought. This:

(after all, if he's town, he shouldn't be getting it right all the time anyway).

we've been very explicitly pro-town the whole game ([2]boasting a 3-3 correct voting record in the on-stage which few can match)

is lol.

Talilan, please explain these two quotes. They seem quite contradictory to each other. How do you reconcile "Glork was right so he's scum" with "I was right, so I'm protown"?

I'm going to give you guys one more GIANT, OBVIOUS explanation for the AP's behavior, so that their identity may remain safely hidden:
The AP holding off on appointing a Stuntman until after the lynch and Green Light was very likely intentional.

curiouskarmadog - scum
Gaspar (Glork/elvis_knits) - town
GoofballsAndBaloons (DrippingGoofball/BridgesAndBaloons) - I go back and forth on her. I think lean town.
hewitt - scummy but I'm starting to think it may be a playstyle thing
Mighty Orbots (Papa Zito/Zorblag) -town
PookyTheMagicalBear, replacing Rawr Hydra S2 - slight scum
ShadowLurker - town
sottyrulez (Sotty7/Zachrulez) -town
StarKiss (Starbuck/Kise/dramonic) - slight scum
Talilan (Talitha/ortolan) - scum
Thesp - not sure
Thok - not sure, I think lean town
VP Baltar, replacing ThebladethatkilledMufasa S2 - scum
zu_Faul, replacing Panzerjager S4 - not sure

My list looks more like this:
curiouskarmadog - scum
Gaspar (Glork/elvis_knits) - town
GoofballsAndBaloons (DrippingGoofball/BridgesAndBaloons) - I go back and forth on her. I think lean town.
hewitt - 50/50, need to re-read him in isolation
Mighty Orbots (Papa Zito/Zorblag) -town
PookyTheMagicalBear, replacing Rawr Hydra S2 - probably protown
ShadowLurker - scummy scum scum
sottyrulez (Sotty7/Zachrulez) -town
StarKiss (Starbuck/Kise/dramonic) - probably protown
Talilan (Talitha/ortolan) - scum
Thesp - completely unsure
Thok - not sure, I think lean town (GLORKNOTE: I agree with this, which is a change. I may be fooling myself, but I think Thok would have killed me by now if he were scum.)
VP Baltar, replacing ThebladethatkilledMufasa S2 - 50/50
zu_Faul, replacing Panzerjager S4 - leaning protown

I don't think that asking "who should be on/off stage" is entirely fair, because obviously I'm going to skew it to push my own agenda. That's a loaded question if ever I saw one, but I'll humor you anyway.

On-Stage:
ShadowLurker (must be onstage)
zu_Faul (must be onstage)
Pooky
CKD
G&B
Thesp -- Yes, I know he's the Director of Photography, but I'd like to see him On Camera in spite of this. We could pre-establish a YouTube song for "Feel free to lynch now." Maybe "Bodies" by Drowning Pool?
I guess StarKiss, mostly because I want the others Off Camera

[Gaspar]

Pooky, I have a question. Do you think I have played more loose / reckless / headstrong than usual?

[Gaspar]

I believe that I can confirm at least a couple of players to be protown, but I'd rather not do that before the scums have sent in their night choice.

[Gaspar]

How do I do that zu?

(Should I be embarassed I don't know how to do it?)

(Also, the question about Glork saying talilan was susp of jelly, Glork will answer when he comes on tonight I assume. )

~elvis

[Gaspar]

When Glork was v/la, I picked "don't push." When he came in, he wanted to push, and I wasn't feeling that strong either way so I agreed with him. I'm not sure how you're going to figure out whether this was some sort of conspiracy though. It's WIFOM, and a wild-goose chase, IMO. I mean, if I were in your shoes I might wonder about it too, but I just don't think there's any way for you to be sure one way or the other. I wish I could remove this aspect of hydras for you, but I can't help it if we don't agree. And I don't think Glork is as OCD about mafia as me, so I can't consult him before every post. Yesterday when asked to give the stage list, I made a pass at it and gave it to Glork so we could post one list that we both had some input on. That resulted in ckd bitching that I was not fast enough.

I'd like to discuss Talilan wanting "push" most of the day and then changing their mind for no apparent reason to "don't push." It had the effect of convincing people to push and then jumping ship before they had to take the blame.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Tally, I don't think you changing your vote made any difference to the outcome. I don't think anyone really changed their mind because of it. But the fact that you had been down to push the button all day contributed to people's choices, I think. Furthermore, it seems like you changed your mind for no reason. Which leaves me to wonder why you did it.

PUSH
Mr. Green, played by sottyrulez - I just recalled a detail about sotty that I forgot when my head was hot and he'slikely town actually.
Clarence Odbody, played by PookyTheMagicalBear - purposely opaque
Carrie Fisher, played by Talilan - town
Angel, played by Gaspar - 50:50
Valentine Wiggin, played by Panzerjager - recently replaced

DON'T PUSH
Glen Stewart Godwin, played by Thok - scum
Huey Lewis, played by StarKiss - not trustworthy

UNDECIDED
Dweezil Zappa, played by Mighty Orbots - town

UNDECIDED NO MORE
Tabris, played by GoofballsAndBaloons - town and I think imagonnawanna push that button.

Actually I think I might like to not push the button

I wonder if the "moving day" will have any effect on the deadline.

Vote: Don't push the button

So DGB posts a lists of everyone's current choices, five people down for push, plus herself who is thinking push. That's more than enough to solidify the Push option.

Then the next post Talilan decides to change her choice with no explanation. Then in the post she actually votes no push, there's no explanation there either.

What made Talilan change her mind and why didn't she speak up about it? If she was having some sort of brainwave, why not share?

It just seems like an attempt to get off the bad wagon.

I'm not blaming her for making the right choice. I am blaming her for saying all day she wanted to make the bad choice and then switching at the last minute for no reason.

[Gaspar]

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Also, what I am thinking is that a scum wanting to get off the wagon might not give reasons because they don't actually want anyone to follow them. They don't want to dissolve the wagon. They want the choice to go through, but they just want to quietly leave.

If they give reasons for their switch, other people might read that and agree and decide to follow. So they can't be too convincing, or draw anyone away. Best not to give reason at all and hope nobody says anything.

On the other hand, I don't see why a town person would purposely give no reason for switching their vote. If I'm wrong here, let me know.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

ckd, explain to me how it is fair to decide a person's lynch while they are onstage and can't defend themselves.

Do you think a person can be correct without being fair?

Probably. It is possible to lynch correctly without being fair to the lynchee. But you're not always going to pick the right person to lynch, and I think you are depriving yourself of chances you might have to reverse a potential mistake if you don't have a proper discussion with the lynchee. So while it is more fair to allow the lynchee a proper defense, it also beneficial to the town.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Hey I was looking at scene 3 too and I think there are a few more important points to be made.

337 - Thok likes Mother
338 - SL agrees, likes Mother
351 - VP Baltar likes Mother
367 - CKD reiterates Mother
387 - Gaspar wants Mother
419 - hewitt not sure, leans Mother
437 - GaB wants Crone
441 - Gaspar for Mother
463 - Shadowlurker wants to vote Mother
471 - CKD is iffy, leaning Crone
474 - CKD switches to Mother (?)
476 - hewitt wants to pick Mother
477 - VP Baltar wants Crone
493 - SL pseudovotes Mother

--- 494 (Hewitt) is just after Talilan's post. At this point, the majority are for voting Mother - Shadowlurker, CKD, hewitt, Gaspar. Only GaB and VP Baltar are for Crone.

501 - hewitt switches to Crone
510 - Gaspar's big logic post, reiterates Mother
520 - Starkiss votes Crone

---green light---
541 - VP Baltar votes Crone
542 - hewitt votes Crone

etc

I also want a few other things on this timeline:
327 - CKD comes to conclusion that Mother is neutral or good, crone is bad or good, and maiden is neutral or bad.
[fill in with MO's timeline]
551 - pooky stunts in and votes crone (vote doesn't count)
552 - ckd "vote crone lets gamble then....

though mother would be the safest choice. "
(vote doesn't count)
553 - Glork gets angry thinking crone has been hammered
554 - ckd votes mother
565 - pooky revotes crone
566 - ckd lols at pooky
567 - tabris hammers crone

So there was a big shift there in thinking and for very little reason. The reasons seem to be 1)elmo was prb lying 2)I felt like voting for the ugly chick (crone). Number 2 is not a reason, and for number 1, Glork made a good case why elmo wouldn't lie even if he was scum.

ALSO, nobody said they voted crone because they didn't trust ckd, and ckd's information led to the conclusion that mother was good or neutral and crone was bad or good. If they had just listened to that they should have picked mother. Each choice has an equal chance of being good, but only one has the chance of being bad! Why pick the only one that might be bad?!?!

So my question to the crone voters -- even if you distrusted elmo/yos, why didn't you listen to ckd? And why didn't ckd listen to himself?

~elvis

[Gaspar]

VP, I still think it makes more choice to pick the safe option. But if you're right, and you say that since everyone thought yos was lying scum they went with crone... how do you look at the scene? Who do you think was scum on or of the crone wagon? Do you draw different conclusions based on different criteria?

Like, who do you think was scummy in the crone scene?

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Well golly gee, CKD left me with a bunch of people who want me dead. How surprising.

[Gaspar]

ckd is begging to die. Putting all communication roles onstage at once. Even stuntman VP is onstage.

I don't think we have to fire ckd if we lynch him, right?

Problem solved.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

I had a thought.

I kind of want everyone to claim their secret words. I'll wait for input from everyone else before deciding if I actually want everyone to claim their secret words.

[Gaspar]

Both of the unsigned posts were Glork, by the way.

[Gaspar]

...

So either you're lying scum or scum can screw with your choice. Do we think that it's possible for scum to do that?

~elvis

[Gaspar]

I call bullshit on the scums fucking with his choices. CKD needs to die NOW.

[Gaspar]

Okay, EK and I talked some things over, and we need to bring some things to light before this gets out of hand.



First of all, I'm not claiming to be the AP, and I'm not claiming that I'm not the AP, but I want to know if anybody actually put these posts together (from the Off Stage Thread):

In other news, I am confirmed innocent

I disagree that the Assistant Producer is scum. For one, the job name is explicitly listed as being Innocent. Secondly, Krew is OBVIOUSLY going to be lynched (in fact, by my count, G&B's vote was the hammer), so the Assistant Producer will be able to choose a new Stuntman once Krew is dead. Which will be as soon as Mr. Grey comes in to wrap up the day.

On the super duper extreme 0.000000000000000001% chance that Krew was town, the AP benefits by not having to commit to naming a new Stuntman yet. Furthermore, the AP can listen to whom our Director wishes to put On Camera in Scene Three, and can choose a Stuntman who will definitely be left Off Stage.


Again... common sense, folks. The AP's decision making process all game have been very logical and natural, for anybody who has bothered to pay attention.

I don't think we should pre-assign "Make X player the Stuntman" on the unlikely-but-possible occurrence where our prospective Stuntman is actually the AP. I also believe that the AP will choose the Stuntman after On Camera players are chosen, in order to ensure that Stuntman will remain Off Stage.

All this talk of lynching me amuses me to no end.

Also, regarding the AP not making a Stuntman: I think it is likely that the AP either forgot to name a Stuntman, or that they didn't feel comfortable naming one at the time. I'm not really going to elaborate much more, because I don't think the time is right to be discussing who the AP is.

No. I'm offering explanations for the AP's behavior. Go back and read what I said. I would know better than to fish for the AP. That's exactly why I'm calling you and CKD out for acting like idiots.

...there are also a couple of posts in the On Camera thread:

Also, the appointing of this "Elmosaurian" as stuntman is more a sign that he will be lynched, rather than an endorsement of his innocence. The AP did the same thing with "KY Krew" yesterday, and I ran through the most likely reasons for it in detail.

Like I said, I went over this yesterday. I think you were On Camera, though, so you probably skipped over it. (And yes, I'm posting totally out of character right now. Sue me.)

Two main reasons:
1) By making the lynchee the Stuntman, the AP doesn't have to decide on a "Scene Four" Stuntman until the lynchee's alignment is known. It probably wasn't as big a deal when he did it to KY Krew after Talilan stunted him off, but if the AP has any significant doubt of Elmosaurian's alignment, he can wait to name a Stuntman until after he's got that information.

2) The AP gets to hide his identity as much as possible. As people cannot hold multiple jobs at once, the more people who are made Stuntman, the easier it is for the scums to figure out who the AP is. Since the AP is confirmed innocent and must choose a (presumably alignment-ambiguous) replacement, the AP's identity should be as hidden as possible. It's not a big deal to make Elmosaurian a Stuntman because he cannot Stunt again today. (Job description says Stunting can only happen once per Scene, and Pooky has already used Scene Three's stunt.) And this takes away Elmosaurian possibly claiming to be the AP to force a counterclaim.

The fact that apparently six of you never noticed that I proclaimed myself to be "confirmed innocent" in my very first post, had uncanny and pinpoint accurate insight into the AP's thought processes, and repeatedly stressed their "hidden identity" bothers me. If I were to claim to be the AP right here and now, and nobody were to counterclaim me, what would the rest of you guys do?

Tag fixed. - Mod

[Gaspar]

Whee, quote tag. Please fix, mod. <3

[Gaspar]

and for the record gaspar, I would rather lynch starkiss OR dgb over you...in that order.

But I'm right near the top of five peoples' lists (as in, at least top 3 candidate out of the people Off Stage):
DGB - has repeatedly called me scum for most of the game
Talilan - 1st
Hewitt - not sure, but he attacks me in several recent posts
Pooky - 1st
CKD - 3rd

You can sit here and say "I don't suspect you the most" but you KNOW that five people suspect me a whole bunch, and that of these seven, I was the obvious lynch choice.

Don't play the fucking blame game here.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: Here's something to think about. I know it's WIFOM, but:

if the scums can indeed change CKD's choices, and I am scum, then why did they put ME in a position to be lynched rather than someone else, like Talilan or DGB?

[Gaspar]

CKD, what choices exactly did you make, in which order?

[Gaspar]

No.

Talilan and DGB I think are suspected the least overall by this group of seven.

To make the "switch" believable, they would want to make one of those two the "likely lynch target." You can plug any players you want into the equation, but obviously if the scums can switch around targets, they did so with the intent to set me up.

[Gaspar]

My question still stands.

If I claim to be the AP and nobody can counterclaim me, what are you going to do?

DGB and Talilan have both posted without answering that question.

[Gaspar]

That wasn't very clear. My point is that Gaspar's question implies that he knows DGB & I are both town.

Splain?

What she's accusing me of implying is this

If Gaspar is scum and the scums can manipulate CKD's choices, then why would they make a scumbag the lynch target and not [protown players] like Talilan and DGB."

I don't think anybody Off Stage has any real suspicion of Talilan, and I think CKD is the only one who has DGB near the top of his list. Basically, if everyone were to make condorcets, I think Talilan/DGB would be at the bottom.

[Gaspar]

I'm quite shocked, as I was nearly 100% certain that zu_Faul was the AP. I'll resume thinking after the shaking and trembling subside.

Have you read over my quotes and come to your own conclusion? I haven't claimed one way or another, yet, but I figure that nobody actually stuck those posts together and said "Glork is either the AP, or he wants someone/everyone to think that he is the AP."

[Gaspar]

lol, Talilan's response was exactly as expected. She wants a scenario where everybody chooses not to counterclaim, so she can still claim that I'm lying about being the AP.



What if I were to claim, everyone Off Stage said "I am not the AP," VP stunted, then everyone On Camera said "I am not the AP." Basically, what if I really

am

the AP?

[Gaspar]

WHY, for heavens sake, would the AP act like someone who "wants someone/everyone to think that he is the AP"?

........


Do you understand the point of breadcrumbing in Mafia?

[Gaspar]

In a vacuum, no.

In the context of all of those other posts and the "Innocent" alignment of the AP, it IS a breadcrumb.

Obviously, I know what a GOOD breadcrumb is, and you do not.

[Gaspar]

No more kneejerk objections?

Are you too stunned by this possibility, or are you consulting with your scumbuddies on how to deal with this information?

[Gaspar]

Even if you were the AP which is a possibility which many will feel they must consider, I'm sure the scum will have saved a kill just for you. So, if you're not lynched, you'd be dead before endgame anyway. Lynching you now is not a loss.

~Tals

This is a silly notion and I'm pretty sure you know it, Tally.

Why let the scums use a kill on someone else when they can just as easily use it on me? Why spend a day lynching me, when you can spend the day lynching an actual scumbag?

I'm not even exaggerating a tiny bit when I say that I'm 100% surprised that you even brought this up. (I could have seen it coming from Ortolan, but not you, Talitha.) You've always tried to strike me as the kind of person who would do whatever you can to use up scum resources and keep lynches as reasonable as possible. It's fine for you to say "bottom line, I don't believe that you are the AP," but it's terrible to say that "if the scums nightkill you, we might as well lynch you." You'd honestly rather give the scums that nightkill to spend on someone else? Seriously?

[Gaspar]

Hewitt, what "little tricks" has Gaspar been up to this game?

~elvis

[Gaspar]

also Gaspar, if you are the AP, why the fuck did you wait so long to appoint a stuntman yesterday?

sorry if this is a repeat question.

There was a very good chance I was going to be stunted off and lynched yesterday. And unless I misread yesterday, I think I was right. Me stunting, then turning out to be the AP would have been disastrous for the town, because you guys would have been completely stuck.


(Pre-Post Edit: Sorry to disappoint, DGB. I'll novelize for you later.)



At any rate, of course I'm not the AP. If I were, I would have hard-claimed to be straight away.

The purpose of my breadcrumbing was simple. I wanted to try to bait the scums into thinking I was the AP, in order to force them to use a kill on me. If I were to make the scums think that I'm the AP, they would have had to debate whether to spend a kill on me early, or force me to claim and spend a kill on me later.

Obviously, the scums didn't off me right away, so this leaves three possibilities. Either the scums did notice and elected not to nightkill me, everyone who noticed is protown, or nobody noticed.

The reason I asked Thok if his opinion of me had to do with my first post of content is because I suspected tha the picked up that I was the AP. I asked him a pointed question about one of my breadcrumbs to see if I could confirm this, but he said he couldn't say for sure that's why he thought I was protown. My guess is that Thok noticed the breadcrumbs, but it didn't fully convince him that I was the AP (and therefore innocent). Perhaps he used the same "why would Gaspar make Talilan the Assistant Director if he thinks Talilan is scum?" reasoning to rule this out, but I know that he has at least considered it. Partly because of that, I'm a little more comfortable thinking that Thok is protown.

Based on DGB's reaction to my breadcrumbing, I am going to state that she is definitely, absolutely protown. She is the only one who is attacking the problem from a "well, let's look at what has to check out if Glork's softclaim adds up," rather than jumping to an instant conclusion. Obviously the point of my softclaim was to get reactions, regardless of whether I am scum or Innocent, but DGB's posts clearly show a protown thought process, while Talilan and Hewitt are still stuck in "I am infallable" mode.

-----------------------------------------

On a completely unrelated topic, I'd like to revisit the "Scientologist, Screen Mafia Guild, Innocent" discussion for a moment.

6 players are dead, and 14 are still alive. Five corpses are "Innocent," and one is a "Scientologist." There has been neither hide nor hair of an SMG yet. At this point, if you believe that CKD is protown, you have to start thinking that we might be put into "Worst Possible Endgame" already. I know I heard some people saying that, at this point, the "On Camera" decisions are more important, but that's just ridiculous. We've lynched ONE scumbag in FOUR days, and there's a possibility that there are TWO scumgroups (or, at the very least, one scumgroup that hasn't lost ANY members).

I'd like everybody to state (or restate) how they feel about the setup. This is something that wasn't especially useful to us during Scene Two, but remember what the rules state:

If there are five Innocents left, the game will automatically enter into Endgame in the Worst Possible Scenario for the Innocents.

If you think that Scientology and Screen Mafia Guild are both distinct scumgroups (which I still do not -- CKD is still scum, IMO), then you HAVE to consider the possibility that there are 4 SMGs left, 3 Scientologists, and only SEVEN townspeople. Mislynch today, SIX townspeople. Kill overnight, FIVE townspeople and we are in worst possible endgame.

The most important thing we can do today is lynch correctly. Talilan is advocating a "resaonably quick lynch today," which is the absolute WORST thing we can possibly do. We have to sort out a number of murky issues before we can lynch today, because we have to know if we are at Lynch-Or-Worst-Endgame.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: That last quote meant to read "paraphrase of rules" not "paragraph." I'm really drugged up because I have the heaping helping of the flu (fully a la mode with bronchitis ice cream).

[Gaspar]

But as a signal? It smells too much of a scum tactic. If Thok turns out to be scum, then it's in CKD's favor.

I'm confused. Does this statement operate under the belief that CKD is Innocent or Non-Innocent?

[Gaspar]

Gaspar, you go out of the way to quote and then paraphrase the mod, but you completely leave off the "and there might be other groups" part of the mod's set up? Why? And why did you assign the Sci.....or SMG those numbers?...do you know something we dont?

First of all, I stated that you must be aware of the

possibility

that the numbers are 3 Sci and 4 SMG. I don't know anything, so don't even start to play this game with me.

Secondly, it's already been discussed (by PJ, I believe) why the "Primary Non-Innocent Alignment" has to have at least four members. Otherwise, one lynch on one PINA member would put us into the Best Possible Endgame Scenario. So my numbers of 4 and 4 are a pretty reasonable

example

of what we might be dealing with.

Thirdly, I don't see what your "There might be other groups" bit is supposed to contend. The rules of entering Endgame are VERY CLEAR. If there are indeed two scumgroups, that means that whomever is choosing Actors for Endgame doesn't know whether they are choosing 2 [Something Else]s and 5 Innocents or not.


Consider this scenario, CKD. Suppose Scientology and Screen Mafia Guild are both

groups

and they are choosing Actors for Endgame. The rules state very explicilty,

the [Something Else] alignment will choose 7 roles - 2 played by [Something Else] Actors and 5 played by Innocent Actors

...
If there are two scumgroups, and say SMG is choosing players for endgame. How rae they to know whether the other players are also [Something Else] (i.e., Scientologists), or Innocent?


Again, I will reiterate: The rules state "THE SOMETHING ELSE ALIGNMENT WILL CHOOSE"... That strongly implies that there is only ONE [Something Else] ALignment. And even if Mr. Grey meant "The Primary Non-Innocent Alignment" (as he stated in the Scene Descriptions), then they have no way of knowing if they are choosing 5-and-2 like they are supposed to. If there are 2 scumgroups, it sounds like the game is unwinnable for one group, because whomever is choosing will obviously choose two of their own, and five innocents, so the "Sceondary Non-Innocent Alignment" wouldn't even make it to Endgame.

[Gaspar]

Vote: CKD

[Gaspar]

Give me a break, ckd.

This is elvis here, saying Glork is pure awesome. If you read Glork's 2042, and look at the rules, it should make perfect sense to you that there is only ONE [something else] allignment.

The endgame scenario says it will be 5 town and 2 [something else], and that we will play until ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER WINS. There is no room for a third party there.

ckd is lying scumbag.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

I'm going to attempt to sum up exactly why I've decided in the last ~15-20 minutes I am certain CKD is scum. After that, if I'm lynched today, please please PLEASE come back and look at this post and examine those reasons.

DGB, I'm talking directly to you. Try to convince Pooky and Thok, to look at this post, too. I want you to promise me that if I die as an Innocent today, you'll interrogate CKD like he has never been probed and prodded before. And if he's scum, you will make him break down and weep for mercy, even as you string the noose around him and send him off to the netherworld.

CKD's Behavior in Scene One

We know that CKD claimed that he was given an opportunity to join "the Enemy," as he put it in his own words. Throughout the day, he reworded and restated this, but never once did he state "the Enemy's" alignment name. It was not until

after Scene One

, after KY Krew had already doomed himself, that he stated the group was called the "Screen Mafia Guild."

What I want to know is, why exactly did CKD withhold "the Enemy's" name from us? If he was told straight away that he could join the Screen Mafia Guild, why didn't he just

state that right away

? It doesn't make any sense to me if he's protown. But if he's scum with KY Krew,

knowing that Krew will be lynched during Scene Two

, he can create this "three scumgroup" atmosphere and throw the town off for as long as he survives.

So, from this, we know that if CKD is innocent, then there must be a Screen Mafia Guild, and there was

at least one Scientologist

.

After CKD read up on the Off Stage thread, he really pushed the whole "3rd party" thing, which is expected. He also called the KY Krew lynch "not very telling," which disturbs me a little.

Issues Behind "Join the SMG," as Presented by MrJellyLee

Nevermind the fact that CKD withheld the "Screen Mafia Guild" name from us, but PJ brought up a very good point that I don't think ever went adequately explained.

As has been discussed, the alignments of the Scene One advocates were independent of everything else. This poses two interesting questions:
1) What if CKD were already an SMG member, and had been given the Advocate information he got? "You can join your own scumgroup?"
2) What if CKD were a Scientologist, and had been given the information he got? If Scientologists are indeed a group (whether cultlike or not), he could rat out the entire rest of the Scientology group, lead a series of lynches on them, and get relatively deep into the game looking like a hero while protecting the identities of his teammates.

Setup and Endgame

This has been sort of the lynchpin (no pun intended) of my uneasiness about CKD all game. Like I just stated, if CKD is innocent, we definitely have three parties. I am fully aware that the rules state there may be other groups, but if you read between the lines and think about how Endgame works with alignments, I think it becomes pretty clear that there are really only two groups -- Innocent and Scientologist. Let the proofs by contradiction begin.

Observation: The rules state that Endgame will contain 2 [Something Else] and 5 Innocents. There are three ways to get to Endgame.
1) All but 5 Innocents are dead.
2) All but 2 [Something Else] Non-Inncoents are dead.
3) Scene 7 is completed.

Observation: There are three possiblities for the Scientologist alignment.
A) There are (or can be) two or more Scientologists as a third party.
B) There is only one Scientologist in the game, as a third party.
C) There are two or more Scientologists as the Primary Non-Innocent Alignment


-------Scenario A-------
Suppose that "Scientologist" is a non-Innocent alignment which has or can have more than one member.
Consider 1).
If all but five Innocents are dead, the scums will be forced to choose those 5 Innocents to participate in Endgame. The rules state that 'the [Something Else] alignment will choose' 2 [Something Else]s to participate. However, it is unclear which [Something Else] alignment this refers to.
If there are 2 or more Scientologists alive, and they choose players, they will choose two of their own, and the SMG will be unable to win.
If there are 2 or more SMGs alive, and they choose players, they will choose two of their own and the Scientologists will be unable to win.

I argue that this is impossible, since Mr. Grey wouldn't create a setup that could force one team to autolose, without them having any control over what happens to them.

Thus, Scenario A is extremely unlikely, because there is a very good chance that a group of players will automatically lose the game due to a horrible setup.



-------Scenario B-------
Suppose that Scientologist has exactly one member as a Third Party.

This would necessarily mean that the SMG has control over choosing players for Endgame. So, let us again consider Scenario 1).

KY Krew survives until there are only 5 Innocents left, so the Innocents are stuck with the Worst Endgame Scenario. The scums are forced to choose those 5 Innocents to participate in Endgame, and they can choose 2 [Something Else]s.

If there are 2 or more SMGs alive, they will obviously choose 2 SMGs, and KY Krew will lose (unless he had a completely alternate win condition, such as the BALCO alignment).

Consider Scenario 2).
Or, if we reach the end of Scene 7, and there are 3+ SMGs, 6+ Innocents, and Krew left, then Krew autoloses again, through the same steps seen above.

So the only way Krew could win is if he's not an SK, but a lone third-party with an alternate win condition that does not involve his survival to Endgame, but involves achieving an objective before Endgame takes place.

Possible, but highly unlikely.


------Scenario C------

First of all, if Scientologists are the PINA, then what the heck are the SMGs?

At any rate, this Scenario pans out exactly the same as Scenario A. If the Scientologists are choosing at endgame, then it's likely that the SMGs will be put in a situation in which the game is 100% unwinnable for them. So like Scenario A, Scenario C implies a horrible setup which is unwinnable for a group of players.

Conclusion: The only way CKD could be telling the truth, based on Endgame mechanics and rules wording, is if KY Krew was acting by himself and had to achieve an objective before Endgame.

CKD's On Camera Choices

Unless I am mistaken, CKD has chosen Actors for three scenes now -- Scenes 3-5, and for TWO of those scenes, his claimed choices do not add up with who was actually put On Camera.

In Scene 3, he claimed that he tried to put both MrJellyLee and BagelEatingCowfrog On Camera, but both of them died so he ended up there instead.

First of all, I would guess that if too many of his chosen Actors died, the mod would ask him to choose another backup/replacement. I asked for clarification on this, but Mr. Grey basically said he couldn't tell me what happened if a bunch of the Director's choices were killed in the same night.

Furthermore, I'm reasonably certain that MrJellyLee requested to be left Off-Stage and not-Stuntman, because MrBuddyLee hadn't had a chance to read the Off-Stage thread yet. I don't think you ever explained why you tried to stick them On Camera anyway.

Thirdly, there may be an issue with the timing of choices. We know that the scums pick the Advocate(s) after the Director has chosen who goes On Camera. I don't know for certain how the order of choices work, but in order for CKD to be made Advocate for Scene Three, the timing would have had to be this:
FIRST, Scum choose who to kill.
SECOND, CKD chooses who goes On Stage.
THIRD, Scum choose the Advocate(s).

I'm not convinced that choices work like that. Mr. Grey refused to tell both me and Talilan what would happen if several of the Director's chocies got killed overnight, so I doubt he would have told the scums that information. Based on that, I don't think they would have

known

to choose CKD as an Advocate. This reeks of pre-planned setup to me.

Now, let's look at today's Scene, Scene Five. CKD claims that the scums just completely changed who he sent On Camera. I call complete and utter horseshit on this one.

First of all, CKD claims that he was supposed to put himself On Camer for this scene. Remember Scene Three? His very first post was along the lines of "oh my god, I didn't ask to be here." In Scene Three, he

immediately

knew that he was in the wrong place, but in Scene Five, he somehow managed to miss the fact that he had access to the Off Stage thread? No sense whatsoever.

There are only

TWO

ways that CKD could know that day had started.
1) He couldn't see the Off Stage thread anymore, so he immediately knew that he was On Camera
2) He checked the Off Stage Thread and saw a post from Mr. Grey indicating that Day had started.

CKD, explain to me how you managed to know that On Camera was open for Scene 5 without looking at the Off Stage thread at all. It makes ZERO sense to me whatsoever, and it VERY STRONGLY implies that you lied about having your choices switched around.


On a semi-related note, I don't believe for a second that Mr. Grey would include the ability to switch Director's choices for the scums. I think it imbalances the game severely, because look where we are stuck now. Why would Grey give this kind of hideous advantage to the scums at a most crucial juncture? I want CKD to make an argument that "Scums can change the Director's Choices" maintains balanced gameplay.




I feel like there's one other thing I forgot, but my head is swimming right now, so I am going to go lie down for a while.


Again, DGB, read what I've posted. You don't have to believe me right now -- I've pretty much accepted that I will probably be lynched today -- but I am honestly like 80-85% certain that CKD has been lying through his teeth all game, and that he's been given the leeway he needs by people like Talilan, who refuse to change their minds under any circumstances. Stop and THINK about what is necessary for CKD to be telling the truth. Once you do, I think you'll find that his antics are extremely far-fetched.

[Gaspar]

CKD, look at this screenshot:

http: //i10.photobucket. com/albums/a136/AjaxUD/rulesreference.jpg


And tell me what it implies about how many [Something Else]s there are. Pay special attention to the part highlighted by the Pink Box.

[Gaspar]

The endgame scenario says it will be 5 town and 2 [something else], and that we will play until ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER WINS. There is no room for a third party there.

This is ANOTHER good point that even I didn't catch.


Please explain this one, too, CKD.

[Gaspar]

also Gaspar, if you are the AP, why the fuck did you wait so long to appoint a stuntman yesterday?

sorry if this is a repeat question.

There was a very good chance I was going to be stunted off and lynched yesterday. And unless I misread yesterday, I think I was right. Me stunting, then turning out to be the AP would have been disastrous for the town, because you guys would have been completely stuck.

But you did it today, why would it have been so disastrous yesterday? It fails to make sense.

I wouldn't have expected the Stuntman to be put On Camera this scene. But as you just noticed, I'm not the AP.

Talilan is advocating a "resaonably quick lynch today," which is the absolute WORST thing we can possibly do.

I agree, but in my mind, Talilan will always be the player that KY Krew tried to stunt to his/her death, and therefore, has got to be town no matter what. Unless Talilan is SMG? But you don't believe that.

I disagree, because Talilan came back with Zero votes, to Zwet's 3 or 4. It would have taken a very fast and very reckless wagon, without Talilan having a chance to defen themselves, to get that lynch. I think that if three people instantly voted Talilan, somebody would have gone "holy shit, speedwagon" and would have backed off. Krew stunting Talilan offstage didn't make her a very viable lynch candidate, IMO.

Just an fyi, the link you've given isn't functionnal (at least to me it isn't...)

Take out the spaces. I don't remember links being legal tags, so I broke it up.

And yes, I also noticed that Hewitt posted On Camera. I PMed Mr. Grey, who removed a Quote tag but didn't notice that Hewitt is supposed to be Off Stage. Apparently even our

mod

gets confused by his own mechanics.

[Gaspar]

You keep quoting the mod, but not addressing that there could be other thrid parties....and these third parties could have nothing to do with the endgame play...WHY DO YOU KEEP IGNORING THIS POINT? Also being that you played in both of the other games that had ADDITIONAL PARTIES, I can not believe that you dont think there could be 3rd parties here. also both of the previous games had a "mafia" party....so not only are you "forgetting" that each game had 3rd parties, but that each game had a "mafia" group.

HOW COULD THERE BE THIRD PARTIES THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ENDGAME?

Let's suppose there is an SK. He's not allowed into endgame? Then he can't win, and mod wouldn't make a role with no chance of winning.

I don't understand how the game would work with a third party. What would happen? Do they magically disappear before scene 7? And why would a mod do that to those players, and give them no chance of winning?

~elvis

[Gaspar]

I feel like I'm being manipulated and am wary of competing scum factions.

DGB, we're showing you that it's not possible for there to be two competing scum factions, based on the fact that the endgame will be between 5 innocents and 2 [something else] and that ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER will win.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

How does a player win when they're not included in endgame?

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Survivor-ish?

But they're not really surviving if they're not even invited to endgame.

[Gaspar]

Gaspar,

first all of, most of your point are still based on made up assumptions. Why?

You keep quoting the mod, but not addressing that there could be other thrid parties....and these third parties could have nothing to do with the endgame play...WHY DO YOU KEEP IGNORING THIS POINT? Also being that you played in both of the other games that had ADDITIONAL PARTIES, I can not believe that you dont think there could be 3rd parties here. also both of the previous games had a "mafia" party....so not only are you "forgetting" that each game had 3rd parties, but that each game had a "mafia" group.

...bullshit....bullshit...bullshit....and scummy.

I know about that one clause. What I'm saying is that, in spite of Mr. Grey putting in that clause, if you read between the lines of the rest of the rules, you can pretty easily conclude that there is only one [Something Else]. You have yet to answer ANY of my accusations, instead choosing to make a blanket statement that I'm operating under false assumptions.

also, the I saw that people were posting in the on stage thread, I started posting there without even looking at the off stage, because I thought I was on stage....Grey messaged me telling me I was not on stage. and erased my posts.

but lets say for a second I did it on purpose....what is the conclusion of your "ah ha" point? What was scummy about it? what could I have said that could be scummy? I simply thought I was on stage...I didnt expect to be off.

Your story wouldn't fly if you didn't pretend to be aloof to the switch. While I think that Talilan's post the other day was a genuine accident, I think that yours was completely, 100% intentional. You posted On Camera, willing to take a strike, in order to give the "I didn't know the scums messed with my choices" claim credibility.

who knows...maybe they have to get something accomplished by endgame, I am not going to outguess the mod.

fact: the other two games had a faction called "mafia"

fact: the other two games had a third party.
a
fact: the other two games had mechanics never seen before in a mafia game (that I have played)

fact: mod stated "there may or may not be other alignments" in the rules.

fact: you are ignoring all the above facts.

you are scum, and your gambits are failing.

Regarding 1, 2, and 3: The previous two games have ZERO bearing on what this game contaions. I think it's extremely stupid to claim that just because there were 3 groups

Also, Going to San Fransisco had a scumgroup called "SCAPE." It didn't contain the word "Mafia" at all. So your claim that both of the other groups had a faction called Mafia is actually completely false. If you're going to lie

Regarding 4: I know what the mod said in that clause. There MAY or MAY NOT be other alignments. Now, see if you can follow this, CKD.

I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THERE IS NO THIRD PARTY. I ELECT TO BELIEVE THAT THERE "MAY NOT" BE OTHER ALIGNMENTS.

I didn't ignore 1, which is false anyway.
I didn't ignore 2, but it has zero impact on this game's setup.
I didn't ignore 3, because we're already dealing with mechanics that we have never seen. I don't see why "New mechanics" implies "there is a third party."
I didn't ignore 4, because IN SPITE OF THE CLAUSE, I have concluded that there is no third party.

And your theory on secret words is.... ........... . ... ... .................... ...

I actually think I might know something about secret words. I'm not really keen on claiming mine until I claim completely, but based on Zwet's and ours, I think there is a trend among some players in the game.

[Gaspar]

If it does anything, I'm Tatum O'Neal, and my secret word is echo.

[Gaspar]

CKD, why did you hammer MafiaJin without giving him a chance to claim his role or any relevant information?

Seems like a p bad move to me.

[Gaspar]

I see a common theme between the two of ours. I'm wondering if at least one other player has a Secret Word of the same properties.

[Gaspar]

lol, gaspar, you really are trying....

how long was MJ at -1 before I "hammered"?

how long until deadline before I hammered?

then ask me that question again.

48 hours is still a pretty long time, and as I recall, those of us On Camera were making condorcets without actual-votes in case you guys couldn't arrive at a lynch.

I'm still perturbed by the fact that nobody even asked MafiaJin for a claim. As soon as Zu_Faul posted, you went ahead and hammered MafiaJin. If he is the lynch candidate at that point, you have to give him an opportunity to claim. You did not, which is, like I said, a bad move.

You sit here and try to make excuses -- "Oh, the AP didn't want to stunt." -- "I wanted to lynch Gaspar, StarKiss, or GnB" -- but when it comes down to it, the moment there wasn't going to be a stunt, you hammered MafiaJin without giving him an opportunity to properly defend himself or claim. That responsibility is on YOU. So yeah, I'm calling you out on it.






Also, I'd argue that you've not shot down most of my points.

-- You still haven't answered why you didn't say "Screen Mafia Guild" during Scene One, instead waiting until Krew was going to be lynchbait.

-- You still haven't commented on "the [Something Else] alignment" or "one side or the other" except to say that you don't wish to outguess the mod -- which is a 100% copout at this point. Setup is EXTREMELY relevant if we are close to Worst Possible Engame, as I have already explained.

-- You still haven't commented on my concerns about Kill/Director/Advocate timing

-- You still haven't answered what would happen if the "you can switch to Screen Mafia Guild" information had been given to a Screen Mafia Guild member, or to a Scientologist.

-- You still haven't provided an explanation for how giving the scums the ability to manipulate your Directors choices is even a tiny bit balanced.

-- You still haven't explained why you wanted to put MrJellyLee On Camera for Scene Three, when MBL hadn't had a chance to get caught up on the Off-Stage happenings.

So yeah. Go ahead and tell me that I keep "coming back with more bullshit" without actually answering the glut of points already made against you.

[Gaspar]

StarKiss, my word is

alfa

. I don't know why it's not

alpha

(and yes, I did confirm the spelling with the mod), but I immediately thought of "Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta Echo...." when I saw Zwet's word. That's the connection I see.

[Gaspar]

YES!

Okay, it's what I thoguht it was.


StarKiss is protown.

[Gaspar]

Note: I wouldn't necessarily believe what anybody else were to claim as a Secret Word, unless I already firmly believed them to be protown. For example, if DGB were to post "hmm, my word is 'Foxtrot'" next, I would definitely 100% believe her.

[Gaspar]

I guess I'm curious to know if anybody else had any misspelled secret words. I am at a complete loss as to why mine is alfa, not alpha.

(EK was even considering having us claim our secret word to be "alpha," but I decided that lying about it probably wouldn't help anybody out at this stage.)

[Gaspar]

I wonder if anyone has OSCAR as their secret word?

That is the theme of this game, you know... The innocents have them, the non-innocents want them.

At least that has been my theory right from the start and seems to be confirmed by every death so far.

~Tals

That hadn't occurred to me, but it does fit with my rolename.

[Gaspar]

Glork, I thought of why the secret word is misspelled. Check the QT.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Glork, I thought of why the secret word is misspelled. Check the QT.

~elvis

Hilarious. But definitely a possibility.

[Gaspar]

If you're wondering why I brought it up now, it's because I think it's true and I think town needs to form a clearer picture of who the scum are, without the big SMG vs Scientologists distraction.

I believe KY Krew was part of a mafia team.. it's the only logical explanation for his behaviour. If I'm wrong about Oscars and we're up against the scientologist team, that would make CKD a liar... but that behaviour as scum (claiming something easily falsifiable) doesn't make sense either.

I've said before, why would the mod go to such pains to hide the identity of the scum team, if they were going to be exposed by the flip the first time one of the team dies. Tom Cruise is a scientologist, but he is also an Oscar winner wannabe.

One could argue that there are a number of Oscar-Wannabes who are also Scientologists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scientologists

Look at the number of Actors/Actresses on this list. Mr. Grey could easily make a single scumgroup out of non-Oscar winners.

[Gaspar]

Elmosaurian was an "innocent waitress." I don't think they had an oscar.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

mith's a tricky mod. Are you saying you don't think Oscar winners are the innocent group?

I'm saying only what is plainly obvious. Elmoyos did not have the role of an oscar-winning actor, yet they were in the innocent group. They had like a "vanilla" role.

You said that all the dead people suggest all the innocent people have oscars. I'm saying that's not true.

[Gaspar]

Gaspar: Oscar winners vs Non Oscar winning scientologists doesn't really make sense to me in a Los Angeles theme game. How many of those scientologists have been nominated for an Oscar but missed out? That's the kind of rage we're dealing with here!

Funny you should ask this, because I was actually going through the entire list picking out people who were nominated but haven't won. So far, I have:
Tom Cruise
John Travolta (!)
Juliette Lewis
Karen Black
Anne Archer

[Gaspar]

I think Elvis was confused by you saying this:

I wonder if anyone has OSCAR as their secret word?

That is the theme of this game, you know... The innocents have them, the non-innocents want them.

At least that has been my theory right from the start and seems to be confirmed by every death so far.

"Innocent Waitress" is not a name which "has an Oscar."

[Gaspar]

And on that note, I (Glork) am heading out of town for another week. I will have my laptop with me, but my access will be fairly limited.

[Gaspar]

I think Elvis was confused by you saying this:

I wonder if anyone has OSCAR as their secret word?

That is the theme of this game, you know... The innocents have them, the non-innocents want them.

At least that has been my theory right from the start and seems to be confirmed by every death so far.

"Innocent Waitress" is not a name which "has an Oscar."

Hey maybe elmoyos's safeword was oscar?

Then they sort of would have an oscar too, to fit into the group?

[Gaspar]

2119 was me, elvis

[Gaspar]

It's all very fine but we still don't know where these secret words are going.

Well, they proved me and starkiss are town, so I think that was pretty major.

I don't mind Talilan refusing to give safeword in theory, but the failure to recognize me or starkiss as town is what makes them scum.

Town:
Gaspar
Starkiss
DGB

Scum:
ckd
Talilan

Not sure:
Pooky
hewitt

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Well, they proved me and starkiss are town, so I think that was pretty major.

How? Do scum have different words?

I was thinking scum don't have safewords... do you think they might?

Otherwise what is the purpose of safewords?

~e

[Gaspar]

For instance, look at KYKrew claiming a bunch of nonsense. And nowhere do I see a secretword. If they could use that to appear town, I think they would have.

We were passed the information we received Day 1, like we said, through someone in our make-up studio. That's all we can give you because that's all we've got. We skipped out on our Lynch so that we could perform our Night action and not receive any heat from the Mafia.

Anyway, I'm Clint Eastwood - too old to be doing police work, but I am working part-time as the lot Security Guard. I can only work 2 Nights. Chose to work last Night, as I figured I'd be under fire Today. Duh.

Everyone left the lot, I saw Panzer come back into the lot in a hooded sweatshirt, along with another unidentified hooded figure.

So, there, that's why we believe we have a cult.

-inHim

vote: Panzerjager

, [People], No Lynch, KY Krew

[Gaspar]

lol...

Watch Talilan ignore the problem of ckd claiming there is an SMG when the rules make it impossible for there to be more than one scum group.

Watch Talilan ignore the way I proved myself with my secret word.

[Gaspar]

I VAGUELY recall secret words in the other games. Once I was town, once I was scum. They weren't determinants of alignment. This I remember.

MafiaJin was town and didn't let go of his words. And BEC's and that other player that was killed too, their words are lost.

I don't know about the other games.

Zwet, starkiss, mine and yours all follow the pattern.

But if KY had a secret word (goddammit I keep wanting to say safeword ala S&M), I think they would have used it. They went to the trouble of fakeclaiming Clint Eastwood and a bunch of other crap.

[Gaspar]

Also, dgb, what was the purpose of the secret words in the other games?

[Gaspar]

But if KY had a secret word

Again, why is it even remotely plausible that the game would be breakable by a mass-claim?

- ortolan

Scum have a whole alphabet to choose from, it's not like we can catch them all that way.

But, out of curiousity, if our secret words are so unimportant, why don't you want to claim yours??

[Gaspar]

The words might not be useless this time. Look at the people who have been asking for the words. I worry they might help scum find the AP or something. THIS game I think we should keep them to ourselves.

~Tal

So you're trying to argue that it's impossible that mith intended for secret words to help town recognize each other, but maybe he intended them to help scum find the AP?

So maybe secret words are there to hurt us?

Talk about a REEEEAAAACCCCCHHH.

[Gaspar]

Ortolan, the game can't be broken by Secret Words, because now all of the scums can just fake-claim Secret Words (and rolenames, even) that fit with our conjectures.

Elvis, I'm actually 50/50 on Talilan now. I think that Talitha's contrubtions were pretty helpful, and the kind of thing she would probably hold close to her chest if she were scum. Of course, Ortolan brings down the hydra's legitimacy every time he posts, so.... :/

Ha Ha Ha. You have difficulties getting night-killed as town do you, so you thought you needed some assistance?

I don't even understand the point of this comment. First of all, I've survived the last two CT games -- one as an Innocent. You seem to be implying that I get nightkilled just because I'm good, when that's not the case. I survive a number of games as a townie, and I survive far longer than I should, sometimes. Secondly, I wanted to bait the scums because I think that having them blow a kill on me could be better than killing certain other players. If we lynch CKD today, and the Scientologists decide they need to silence me for once and for all tonight, that's just fine and dandy by me.

[Gaspar]

Elvis, I'm actually 50/50 on Talilan now. I think that Talitha's contrubtions were pretty helpful, and the kind of thing she would probably hold close to her chest if she were scum. Of course, Ortolan brings down the hydra's legitimacy every time he posts, so.... :/

It's just their refusal to even contemplate that we *might* be town, combined with how everything they suggest helps scum, how they are protecting ckd, public enemy number one. Those things kinda make me think they're scum.

However, I am willing to reevaluate if they will actually listen to us. I'd like to know how they feel about scientologists vs. smg vs. endgame descriptions that call for only one [something else] allignment.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

I'd like to know how they feel about scientologists vs. smg vs. endgame descriptions that call for only one [something else] allignment.

Basically, we need more info. It's possible all the scum have different "factions" e.g. one is a scientologist, the others are all different things. Basically I'm waiting to see whether you flip Scientologist or just another type of scum entirely.

- ortolan

And what do you do when we flip innocent?

[Gaspar]

will update tomorrow..

hey gaspar.

I'd like to know how they feel about scientologists vs. smg vs. endgame descriptions that call for only one [something else] allignment.

Basically, we need more info. It's possible all the scum have different "factions" e.g. one is a scientologist, the others are all different things. Basically I'm waiting to see whether you flip Scientologist or just another type of scum entirely.

- ortolan

And what do you do when we flip innocent?

And what do you do when I flip innocent?

That would mean SMG exists. So I would PM mith and ask him why his setup/rules are incorrect.

[Gaspar]

I already told you, I know mith said there could be other groups, but they are not mentioned in endgame and I don't see a possible way for them to be in endgame. If they're not in endgame, how do they win? If they can't win, then mith would not put them in a game.

Tell me how our endgame works with more than one scum group and I will discuss it with you. You have never told me how it could work. I don't see how it can, but if you do, TELL ME ABOUT IT.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

WTF?

so they are not mentioned in endgame? what if their goal has nothing to do with endgame?...what if they have to do something before endgame?....

do you label a survivor scum?

So you think that there could be roles that say, for example "lynch yourself before scene 7 to win"?

Is it just me, or does that sound very unbelievable?

I label survivor as neither scum nor town, which would make them not in endgame. And I think that for a survivor to um, survive, they have to be included in endgame.

So are you saying that scientologist was some type of third party? (SMG sounds too much like a main scum group). Because I think Talilan thought they seemd like they weren't working alone. Do you disagree? You think we killed a thirdparty and that we haven't hit any of the main scumgroup?

~elvis

[Gaspar]

hewitt,

your onstage post didn't make any sense to me, probably partially because your quote was removed by the time I saw it. If it was a response to me asking what "little tricks" you meant, then I didn't understand. Please repost.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Onstage, Thesp said he hopes we're lynching ckd. This is my fervent wish also.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

the fucking roles can say anything...this is a Mr Grey Joint...I am not out guessing the mod...

If there are roles that say "You win by accomplishing X before endgame"... I will eat my hat. I do not think Mr. Grey is a bastard mod. Also, I think mith is sort of traditional, in his own way. I do not believe what you are saying is possible.

Every party should be represented in endgame. That is the only way to give everyone a fair chance of winning.

example..."CKD, why did you not give MJ a chance to claim?" But you somehow dont mention that he was put at -1 10/15....and I voted him 2 DAYS LATER...you also seem to not mention that MJ posted several times after being at -1.....

Did you ever ask him to claim? No.

example ..."CKD is scum because there is no way we have a third party"...yet, the rules say there could be.

And the endgame makes it impossible.

example.."CKD is scummy because he wants to lynch someone on stage while being off stage without giving them a chance to defend himself" This was complete bullshit. I am just one vote...you were trying to say I am scummy by trying to pin an entire hypthetical lynch on me....ignoring the fact that there are others in that imaginary lynch....assuming that the lynch would be innocent and not scum....this attack didnt even make any since...but you are trying anything to see what sticks.

1)It was your strategy. Not the whole town's strategy. It was your strategy when you picked the onstage people. It was your plan. The fact that you were thwarted by lack of stuntman doesn't make it any less of a scummy plan.

2)The fact that other people would have helped you enact the plan, does not absolve you from blame in wanting to be a part of it. "I didn't murder that guy all by myself! I had help!"

now, "look guys, thesp thinks we should lynch CKD"...however, you seem to overlook the fact that they are under the impression that I put all the information passer and stuntman on stage...

They don't know that you are CLAIMING that those are not your decisions. To believe you are telling the truth, they would have to accept some sort of very absurd and unproven scum mechanics that we haven't even seen yet this game. Personally, I do not believe you. And I think the likihood of it even being possible are extremely low.

I said the thing about thesp to sort of remind all the scum that even if they succeed in lynching me today that they will be held accountable in the long run. Gaspar has put down too many good reasons that ckd is scum. Whoever ignores them will be outting themselves as scum. Wait until the rest of the players come back. They are going to be pissed.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Pooky,

Do you think the players that are not picked in endgame will have full reveals?

I don't think they will. Read the endgame rules. It says that the [something else] allignment will pick 7 players for the endgame, which will play on camera until ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER wins.

It doesn't really say that people not picked for endgame will die. What if they don't die. What if there is no reveal? Then your ckd plan is shot to shit.

Even if they do dit, so far, all the death reveals have been offstage, right? Well, seeing as the endgame is played onstage, that suggests we might not even be told the allignment of players not picked for endgame.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Damn you, Pooky.

I am Ben Affleck. I already told you my secret word is Alfa.

Me and Glork didn't know why Alfa was misspelled. My theory is that since BEn Affleck won his oscar for best screenplay even though he's really an actor, it's sort of like a dig at Ben Affleck. Like, he got an oscar for screenwriting even though he can't spell. But that may be wrong. That's just my guess. There may be another reason.

[Gaspar]

I'm in favor of lynching Gaspar as well.

But no one hammer.

Scum or town, I want to know what this hydra has to say. Either way, it will be a gold mine of information.

Scum:
ckd
Talilan
Hewitt
VP

Town:
Gaspar
Starkiss
Sotty
Mighty Orbotts
Thok
SL

Neutral:
Thesp
Pooky

That's the Elvis list of where I see everyone. Glork may have different thoughts. I think he thinks pooky is town, and I think he is suspicios of SL. But I'm not sure. I would ask that everyone at least gave Glork a chance to post his final words before hammering.

I'd feel really bad if Glork didn't get a chance to post again. He's put so much time into this game I was hoping to leave the claiming to him. Pooky forced the claim though. So I hope everyone gives glork the chance to post. He is usually able to post in the evenings.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Well, I'm glad if the characters are revealed b4 endgame. I hope that it doesn't get revealed offstage and none of you onstage know about it. But I guess there is a list of dead onstage as well. Well, hopefully that will help you.

I don't know why there's this feeling that Gaspar must be killed because otherwise they will pick a group of easily moldable stooges to put into endgame. Even if we were scum, are there even that many people that think we're town? To the extent that they would follow us blindly? It's not like we're ckd with Talilan...

~elvis

[Gaspar]

pretty sure gaspar scum is going to have enough snowed gaspartownies to help him win an endgame. you only need TWO people you can snow.

So we are so awesome that we can't be allowed in endgame?

This is bad reasoning, pooky.

You could say this about almost anyone in the game. We're all good players (mostly ).

You should be lynching us because you think we're scum, not because we're too dangerous in endgame. I could say the same about you.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Oh, and dgb should be under town in my list from 2179

[Gaspar]

I'll take a stab at it, but Glork may have smarter things to say, so he will add whatever he sees fit.

Re: Hewitt, I think he is scum, maybe distancing from pooky with the vote. But furthering the Gaspar wagon while not voting us is pretty underhanded and scummy. Glork keeps telling me pooky is town though. So maybe hewitt just didn't want to stick his neck out by voting us until it looked inevitable. Either way, his behavior is scummy.

Re: Sotty and what is happening onstage. My general read of sotty and MO is town, so I don't really have a problem with what is going on there. I also think it's the right thing to do to follow the advocate now. If he's lying, we will have caught a scumbag. If the decision is good, I'd definitely say MO is town after that. (Like you said, being this close to endgame the scum can afford to out a few people, and I don't think they would try to gain townie cred and take the hit of a good decision when they could get the bad decision and not be hurt by losing MO). If the decision is neutral, it could mean either he's town or scum. Smart thing to do as scum would be to advocate for the neutral option -- just preventing the good option may be good enough for them, especially while they're getting me lynched. But neutral option could also happen if MO is town. Bad option only happens if he's scum.

Also, sotty is not the only one who has been making very correct guesses about what is happening offstage when she's on. Talilan has done it a few times too. End of last scene she was like "I bet they lynched mafiajinn and he's town." I think Talilan has done it other times too.

DGB, why do you think we are scum? I don't need a host of quotes, just a general understanding.

[Gaspar]

I don't think KYKrew stunting in exchange for Talilan means Talilan is town.

This is why:

1)It's not like the KY votes would carry over to Talilan. There was almost no risk of that happening since they're different players, etc. Case won't carry over.

2)Scum might want to keep the same ratio of scum onstage and off. For the purpose of having the same amount of control. So if one scum is going to leave offstage and come onstage, he might want to send his buddy in to keep things going offstage.

So I don't think KY stunting with Tally means Tally is town.

I'm just saying this for posterity. I know that nobody will believe me until I am dead.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

So it sounds like you think KY was protecting their buddy? I think you should probably try to remember who that is and lynch them.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Get ready to ribbit, Orto.

When we flip town, will you change your avatar to a frog for a month? And not this alt, but your main account.

Do we have a deal?

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Nevermind, about the avatar then!

[Gaspar]

mith means don't drink and post.

hahahahahha

How did mith know I was drunk?



Glork said he was VLA this week and he said he has the flu. So if you could possibly give him time to post his final reads, that would be good.

I don't think we want to end the day immediately anyway. The others haven't made their decision, so might as well give Glork more time.

I am done trying to convince Talilan. They are either scum or so completely snowed by scum they might as well be an extra scum buddy.

I might make one more post of my greatest hits, but maybe not. I think I have repeated myself enough.

Any other questions, I will answer though.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

who are your buddies?

You are! Why haven't you been checking the QT?!?! STOP BUSSING ME :(:(

~elvis

[Gaspar]

I agree, death to Pooky. I would never NK dgb.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

In all seriousness, I will try to explain the AP stuff again since Glork isn't here to do it himself. I wasn't even sure what Glork was doing for a while. But my understanding is this:

Glork was just hoping to draw the NK with those breadcrumbs.

The fact that we didn't get the NK means whoever is scum did not notice them.

That was the purpose of bringing the breadcrumbs to light and asking who noticed them and assumed we were the AP. Because people who didn't notice them are possible scum.

Take from that what you will. Look at the reactions of everyone to our AP crumbs in future days. It should be a helpful tool for you. People who thought we were AP should be considered town.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

What do you mean?

[Gaspar]

If we were lynching ckd, that means you would become the new director, right? So would that be announced in their thread also?

e

[Gaspar]

no it wouldnt...of course you know that...good catch Tal, Gaspar protecting your buddy?

How do you know? I'm not sure you're wrong, I just want to make sure you don't make any dumb assumptions.

If you look at Thok though he has called for you to be fired since the beginning, ckd, he has never asked for your lynch.

Thesp and sotty have asked for your lynch, but thok has been saying the same thing all along, to fire you. So I don't see why he necessarily has extra info. Unless he's your buddy and he's asking for you to be fired for distancing, but not asking for your lynch because he's your buddypal.

e

[Gaspar]

All I'm saying is it would be more convincing if thok or someone else had gone from wanting ckd lynched to wanting ckd fired. That would show more conclusively that they had some knowledge of him not being the lynch.

Again, I don't expect you to listen until I'm dead. Even then I might be wrong, but I just had to say it.

e

[Gaspar]

So it's a unanimous decision? Gee, how depressing.

e

[Gaspar]

VP Baltar isn't considering it, either.

VP's looking OK though, because he's wanting CKD fired immediately, not as a signal that the lynch has happened.

I agree it looks a bit suspicious for Thok, though.

~T

HELLO double standards. Thok said he wanted ckd fired in his first post of the day. So why are you judging them differently? Then he said that you could use the firing as the signal that we'd lynched. But he did not start out wanting ckd lynched then switched to asking for firing. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN VP AND THOK. They have both asked for ckd to be fired the whole day.

You are showing your bias.

e

[Gaspar]

Wake up, Glork!

I don't know where he is I posted in our QT a few times. He isn't answering. He will probably find time eventually though. He's VLA and stuck with flu. I hope he's okay!

e

[Gaspar]

Wake up, Glork!

I don't know where he is I posted in our QT a few times. He isn't answering. He will probably find time eventually though. He's VLA and stuck with flu. I hope he's okay!

e

This. I am about an hour and a half out of town on a business trip, and I have had the flu for the past five days.

I promise I will post my final thoughts before Friday night is over and done with.

I just hope you'll actually go back and pick through my thoughts on the gamestate once I'm dead and gone. :/

[Gaspar]

When we flip town, will ckd atleast get fired?

e

[Gaspar]

I'm calling CKD as town, btw. (Re-read his crone vs mother play... IMO it just stinks of town).

I very much disagree.

He was an advocate and his info led him to the conclusion that mother was either good or neutral, and crone was either good or bad. Both choices had the same chance of being good, but only crone could have possibly been bad. And he chose the only one that could have possibly been bad.

That does not stink of town.

~e

[Gaspar]

For future reference,

I hope the players onstage pay attention to what has happened here today, specifically how:

~nobody listened to our reasoning that makes two scum groups incompatible with endgame (and thus meaning ckd is scum)

~nobody paid any attention to me and starkiss giving our secretwords at the same time and confirming each other

e

[Gaspar]

I will keep trying all day long!

ckd, you offered yourself for the lynch yesterday.

Was that a serious offer?

Because you don't seem to want to die.

If you were so serious yesterday about wanting to be lynched to prove SMG exists, why are you so resistant to dying today?

It was awfully convenient how you said yesterday maybe you should be the lynch and then VP pipes up with "OH no, we love you ckd, don't ask to be lynched!!!111" And then you stopped talking about lynching yourself.

I don't think you ever intended to lynch yourself.

I think that was complete BS.

~e

[Gaspar]

ckd, if you thought you shouldn't go to endgame yesterday, you should still think so today.

Until someone flips SMG, I will continue to question their existence. As in any other game, I would question the existence of a faction there is no evidence of. It is a common red herring to talk about a rival faction. Like how KY said he thought there was a cult in the game. Misdirection, panic, paranoia. That is what scum like to promote. KY did it. You're doing it too.

And what did you want me to address about starkiss? That they made all wrong decisions? True. But, they're not the only one. I think dgb did also, maybe others. How come you're only hitting on starkiss? Your criteria for finding scum is not universal. You use it selectively. Further proof you are scum.

~e

[Gaspar]

so I scum because i picked crone at first, but starkiss is not scum for picking 3 WRONG CHOICES? explain.

You were the advocate! You did not have to question your own honesty! You should believe yourself! You should go for the best option under YOUR info, and that was mother. You knew the safest and best option was mother, and you voted crone. You changed your vote later, when it was too late. You were tickled pink when pooky revoted crone and you posted "lol." It should not be so hilarious to you if you thought pooky was voting wrong.

I don't think starkiss is scum because of his secret word.

You still haven't explained why you don't think dgb or anyone else who made 3 WRONG CHOICES, is scum. Explain why you only think starkiss is scum.

Also, I think the choices have to be looked at as more than a simple "vote wrong" or "voted right." You have to look at the big picture. Like how talilan pushed the wrong decision all yesterday but voted right in the end, FOR NO REASON. They just switched, without giving any explanation. That's the kind of stuff people should be looking for.

e

[Gaspar]

Hi, I'm home, but quite exhausted. I'll absolutely, 100% post everything on my mind on Saturday, though. I do apologize for being a bad player (and to EK, I apologize for being a worse hydra-head), but I'm still not over my flu, and I've not been back in town for very long. I will respond to DGB's most recent post, though.


Also, if I get hammered before I get a chance to spew my thoughts on game-state, please kill/vig/lynch/whatever whomever hammers me.

Still waiting for Glork.

You know my motto:

Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fake claim can take a lifetime.

Ben Affleck, vanilla townie. EK thinks that the misspelled "alfa" is a shot at Ben Affleck because his Academy Award is for writing a screenplay, not actually acting. This makes a lot of sense to me, so I'm inclined to agree with EK for now.

And its corollary:

Explaining why you'd fake being the AP can take a lifetime, but we have a deadline and we might just have to hammer you if you're not going to try.

Already explained this one. My goal was to see if I could draw a nightkill from the scums by representing the AP so blatantly. Apparently I wasn't nearly as blatant as I thought, though, because almost nobody picked up on my constant ramblings of "this is why the EXTREMELY HIDDEN AP did this!!!!"

They don't confirm at all because your secret words have absolutely nothing to do with my secret word and neither does anybody else who's claimed their secret word. So the fact that you even have this connection between each other based on your secret words is pretty bleak.

Obviously, you haven't read DGB's posts, and haven't properly understood why both StarKiss's and our secret words fit in with Zwet's. Please go walk off a cliff and die soon. kthxbai

[Gaspar]

the AP fake breadcrumb is just not credible coming from Glork. I'd be interested if there's any precedents where you've done something like that previously, because it seems to be extremely out-of-character play for you.

I'll bite. How is it "out of character" for me?

No, more like you fabricated secret words that magically fit together.

...and also happened to fit with DGB's secret word? Or do you think that DGB, StarKiss, and I are all scum conspiring together?

Ben Affleck, vanilla townie. EK thinks that the misspelled "alfa" is a shot at Ben Affleck because his Academy Award is for writing a screenplay, not actually acting. This makes a lot of sense to me, so I'm inclined to agree with EK for now.

I know you're joking because:

Obviously, you haven't read DGB's posts, and haven't properly understood why both StarKiss's and our secret words fit in with Zwet's. Please go walk off a cliff and die soon. kthxbai

Color me confused, DGB. Everything I said in that claim is 100% truth.

[Gaspar]

I can't believe hewitt doesn't know the pattern by now... after seeing zwet, starkiss, us and dgb, he didn't google it? And mistakenly thinks he's not in the pattern and so we are lying? Boo!

Is there any harm in me telling you what I think your word is? Because I bet I can guess it.

Also, I found a wiki entry where our word is spelled the same as in our pm, so I think it just depends what list you go by. There are some used by different groups, and I think the most universal one may be with our spelling.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Listen Gaspar I'm not going to follow anything that you three having been doing because I don't trust any of you. It would not make any sense for me to follow three players who are interchangeable for today's lynch in my mind. So until you spell out exactly what the hell you're trying to get at I don't care. And how does this even confirm you as town?

Well, I thought it did confirm us as town. But even if it doesn't, I want to point out to you that yours does follow the pattern. And it's pretty stupid to assume your word does not fit with the pattern, when you obviously don't know the pattern. And to assume that we are scum because your word doesn't fit our pattern (when actually it does).

You word is November, I think.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Hey, I don't know why Glork isn't posting. I hope he isn't dying of flu.

I think he has already explained why he made the AP breadcrumbs, but here's something more that he originally wrote me in our QT. (Mr. Grey said this was short enough to post).

So, I've been hint-dropping that I am the Assistant Producer for much of the game. Obviously, we are not the AP, but I was hoping to draw a scumkill by making them think I was confirmed innocent.

My plan was to see if the scums would shut up and just kill me (which would be fine, considering I've been a major source of conflict over the course of the game), or whether some players -- like Thok -- would quietly sit here and go "Glork is obviously protown" based on my hint-dropping.

Since it looks like we'll be run up tomorrow, I'm planning on testing this theory. I haven't decided if I want to reveal this now or wait until tomorrow. Kind of let me do my own thing regarding this, because I think I can potentially confirm some people (like maybe even Thok).

So my understanding of it is what he thought it would be good to confuse the scum about who the AP was, and draw the NK. Expecially since he was suspected early, he thought drawing the NK would be expecially beneficial to the town. Since he didn't draw the NK, he decided to come out today and ask who THOUGHT he was the AP. Sort of confirming that people who thought he was the AP are not scum since they would have killed him.

Also, I have no idea what zu is saying onstage... about slips and all. Because I know I have had disagreements with him over slips in past games (I believe in them and he doesn't). Maybe he means Glork? I don't know. It's confusing that he's encouraging our lynch from onstage like he is.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Weren't you impressed by my last post?



I don't know how else to explain it. We've told you why Glork did it. What are you not understanding?

~elvis

[Gaspar]

Weren't you impressed by my last post?

No. Glork-town doesn't try to draw the kill. Glork-scum breadcrumbs AP to save his keister in end game when the AP, whom he would have identified in the game, and left out of the end game, so that he himself could fake claim innocent when the real AP isn't there to counterclaim.

Now,

THAT

's Glork-think.

This is wrong. I don't know what to say anymore. Except... no.

I don't know why you think Glork would never draw the nightkill.

I also don't know how the second thing would even work... you think if the AP gets NKed, or doesn't get picked for endgame (and thus killed), that the player would not be shown as flipping "AP"? Even if he doesn't flip "AP" won't he pick a new player to be the AP? I mean, won't we always have an AP? How do you think Glork was going to fakeclaim AP and not be counterclaimed?? And seeing as his crumbs go all the way back, he would have to claim to be the original AP, not an inherited AP. I don't know, but your scenario doesn't sound possible.

~elvis

[Gaspar]

See, this is why I think you're town dgb, because you have a very good ability to tell when I am town and when I'm scum. I remember Nasubi, and a few other times, you correctly pegged me as scum. When you're town, you know my allignment. And if you're scum there's really no advantage for you to say you think I'm town, and reverse yourself on a scum read on Glork. If you were scum I think it would be much easier to just keep calling me scum. But the fact that you have a different read on me pretty much indicates that you are town. Although you're not really following your town read on me... that puts a wrench in the works

I'm resigned to Gaspar's death at this point, though. I'm just saying this for posterity.

DGB, do you think talilan and ckd are town?

e

[Gaspar]

Days are two week maximum, so I think that gives us until Friday.

I still think we will likely be the lynch today, and honestly I would rather be mislynched today than be part of a mislynch of somebody else. Because then everyone would REALLY be thinking we were scum even more and if we need to die I think it would do less damage if it was today than some future day.

But I really don't think ckd or Talilan would be a mislynch. Especially ckd with his SMG huggabugga that is incompatible with endgame. The only way I can see it possibly make sense is somehting Talilan (I think) mentioned at one point. For all the scum to have different affiliations but be part of a larger mafia group... like "scientologist" is the scum rolename for a larger SMG. But that seems really far-fetched and weird to me. I am pretty sure if that were the case, KY would have flipped "scientologist, Screen Mafia Guild." Can anyone think of a way to make this work? Because I really can't.

~e

[Gaspar]

I just figured something out, and it's very, very bad. ortolan see QT. What happens now?
Nice work, scumbags.

~Talitha

Also, what was this quote all about?? I don't think Tally ever explained?

e

[Gaspar]

Well shit, I guess I'm late to the party yet again. I'm dead, but I'm going to give you my last two cents (dollars, millions) anyway.



The scums:

curiouskarmadog: This guy seriously needs to die TOMORROW, and Talilan needs to fire his ass immediately. We have now gone seven deaths, I think, without revealing a single "Screen Mafia Guild" member. I've already explained in detail several reasons why CKD is likely to be scum. It's the most firm, solid thing I've thought at any point in this game except for Krew's scumminess. Nothing adds up to me. The number and nature of nightkills, the lack of SMGs, the timing of his mentioning 'SMG,' his inability to explain how endgame fits with three factions. MrJellyLee and BagelEatingCowfrog dying when he allegedly wanted to put them on stage. The scums "changing" his choices for Scene 5. None of it adds up. CKD also played the blameshifting game when I said "oh great, CKD left me with a bunch of people who want me lynched." His defense of "you're third on my list" doesn't fly, and as soon as I put pressure on CKD, he OMGUSed me anyway.

Hewitt: This guy basically rode Pooky's and Talilan's coattails today, and has looked pretty shady all game. His attacks were attacks on character, when I don't believe he knows anything about how I play. That tells me that he just took something that someone else said and ran with it, which is a much more egregious sin than making the ill-guided attack to begin with.

ShadowLurker: I still maintain that this guy is scum. He has not gotten down and dirty like I would have expected. His dice-rolling to pick Door 1/2 bothered me, as if he wanted visible proof that he was not responsible for whatever happened in that Decision. Even on my deathbed, I cannot place my finger on exactly

why

I can so calmly and confidently state that SL is scum but I just

know

it. He's a guy who will probably survive to Endgame and may sneak under everyone's radar and win this for the scums.

Thesp: I'm putting him here because of his general lack of contribution throughout much of the game. I still don't know for sure whether it's a tell one way or another, or whether it's null. It's entirely possible that Thesp's Scenes 1-3 were like my Scenes 4-5, where he just couldn't find the time to post anything of real value. Of the four people I've listed so far, Thesp is the least likely to be scum, but there is a very real possibility that he is.



There may be one more scumbag, but 5 sounds like a pretty reasonable number. I am in fact concluding one scumgroup, Scientologists. If there's one more, or if I'm wrong about somebody on my list, then StarKiss is a very reasonable alternative.

Talilan's recent play has all but convinced me that they are protown. Talitha's open speculation in particular on Secret Words and scumgroups (Oscar winners vs. non-Oscar winners) strikes me as very distinctly protown. I will give Ortolan a good telling-off after this game is over, because I don't think I've ever disapproved of a player's approach to a mafia game more than I have of Ortolan's play in this game (and that's saying an awful lot).

[Gaspar]

Do you guys ever have the experience of playing a game of mafia, getting to around Day 4 or so and suddenly a few pieces of the jigsaw start to come together, a picture starts to form, and things begin to fall into place. The way you are playing the game starts to change because suddenly you KNOW things, and can't comprehend how others can't see it. You can't explain it very well though, because the picture in your mind is only a product of tiny little game pieces... but it's an example of the Gestalt effect where the "whole is greater than the sum of the parts". You get over-excited, over-eager and then incredibly frustrated at the scum being SO greasy and the town SO obtuse. Well yeah, this is my experience right now.

lol... please reread this after we flip.

Hewitt, DGB has just unvoted Gaspar. The charms have worked, and will work on others. You know Gaspar is scum. PLEASE help us lynch him. The fact that you are not helping us lynch him means I will shortly be forced to reconsider my slight-town read of you.

I find

this

greasy. You resorted to threats to convince people to lynch us.

Re: not wasting a lynch on you, I'm sorry for not making myself clear. We only have 2 lynches left, right? I made a couple of assumptions. I assumed
1. That you are scum
2. That you are too suspicious-looking for scum to pick as one of their two representatives in endgame
Therefore lynching you would be a waste of the 2 precious lynches we have left. I realise I am making big assumptions but I'm just calling the game like I see it.

I think it is a BAD strategy for town to assume certain people are scum and then not lynch them and assume they will not be brought to endgame.

There is like a huge hole there. If you're wrong, scum can bring the scummy-looking-townie to endgame and cause town to lose the game.

If you're town Talilan, I hope you will rethink this strategy after our flip. Because you will be forced to rethink all of your assumptions.

e

[Gaspar]

Do you guys ever have the experience of playing a game of mafia, getting to around Day 4 or so and suddenly a few pieces of the jigsaw start to come together, a picture starts to form, and things begin to fall into place. The way you are playing the game starts to change because suddenly you KNOW things, and can't comprehend how others can't see it. You can't explain it very well though, because the picture in your mind is only a product of tiny little game pieces... but it's an example of the Gestalt effect where the "whole is greater than the sum of the parts". You get over-excited, over-eager and then incredibly frustrated at the scum being SO greasy and the town SO obtuse. Well yeah, this is my experience right now.

lol... please reread this after we flip.

Hewitt, DGB has just unvoted Gaspar. The charms have worked, and will work on others. You know Gaspar is scum. PLEASE help us lynch him. The fact that you are not helping us lynch him means I will shortly be forced to reconsider my slight-town read of you.

I find

this

greasy. You resorted to threats to convince people to lynch us.

Re: not wasting a lynch on you, I'm sorry for not making myself clear. We only have 2 lynches left, right? I made a couple of assumptions. I assumed
1. That you are scum
2. That you are too suspicious-looking for scum to pick as one of their two representatives in endgame
Therefore lynching you would be a waste of the 2 precious lynches we have left. I realise I am making big assumptions but I'm just calling the game like I see it.

I think it is a BAD strategy for town to assume certain people are scum and then not lynch them and assume they will not be brought to endgame.

There is like a huge hole there. If you're wrong, scum can bring the scummy-looking-townie to endgame and cause town to lose the game.

If you're town Talilan, I hope you will rethink this strategy after our flip. Because you will be forced to rethink all of your assumptions.

e

[Gaspar]

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Sorry for double posting so obnoxiously.

Bye guys. It has been fun.

[Gaspar]

I'm so excited for our lynch scene. I hope it has psychic monkeys in it.