The Dark Goma Mafia: Massacre of the Cloth (Game Over)

[Sajin]

@dramonic- Old accounts mean experienced? It is case by case basis I am afraid.

@Sociopath- why are you voting a player without relevance to their alignment?

[Sajin]

@Socio- Fine, your not voting him but you are willing to.

Vote: Sociopath

[Sajin]

Ohh the joys of pages of posts and not a whole lot of words.

I'm still hoping that everyone DOES vote so we can look at said mechanics.

@Jordan:

What "phase" are we in now and why would you be satisfied with it?

How do you reconcile the two quotes Sociopath put together?

Based on the mod vote page we know (or can likely assume) there is an extra vote out. What would be protown about outing voting mechanics or attributing them to certain people? What advantage for town do you see in discovering this? What would you do with this information when you obtained it?

fos: Spyrex

[Sajin]

What would be protown about outing voting mechanics or attributing them to certain people? What advantage for town do you see in discovering this?

Double voters, much more often than not, are a Protown role, especially on day1. (Day2+ some roles can give double votes to anyone, including scum.)

Other than that, its a crap shoot as far as I know.

Sure. So why would we out at least one someone that has a double vote and therefore is likely town? Thus my post.

[Sajin]

Where does it say what is town anywhere? Is it listed that Council=town? If so, point it out to me please.

It should say it in your PM, scum.

unvote

Vote: DeathNote

Explain this stark. Now. Are you mafia or 3rd party?

unvote; vote: Stark

[Sajin]

When I first read my PM I was thoroughly confused. Only by reading the opening post did I understand that the council was the ruling body of the town (and not a informed minority of it like the word "council" could imply). So I could easily see how deathnote made a similar mistake to that. If you wish to think he was scummy for not understanding his alignment prior to posting in thread, fine- I can see that. But I do not think that not quite understanding the correlation is scummy in and of itself. It certainly does not deserve the quickness of this wagon.

Stark's slip I cannot see.

What do you think of Stark, plum?

[Sajin]

@Stark- That is a logical fallacy. Explain why the quote that I think was your slip is at all explained by your recent post.

[Sajin]

Sure spyrex, but I was not trying to protect anyone. I was asked my opinion about deathnote. I answered. I simply caught a tell I thought was very telling and called them out on it. Would you have preferred me to not answer Plum? Not scum hunt? Lie?

Are you pushing a lynch so that Stark does not get called out? Lets here you answer that honestly.

Spyrex- Did you understand you were town/council immediately? Do you see the problem with stark's slip?

[Sajin]

Fair enough. Can you answer the "did you understand you were town/council immediately" question?

[Sajin]

Millers are increibly uninformative lynches (because you cannot read peoples votes well as the reason for voting is policy based). I suggest a miller claim be vigged.

Stark still has some explaining to do.



And as a general note, if we can cut the noise in the thread down that would be great. I do not mind reading 10 pages a day at all if it has content to it. Pages and pages of fluff gets old fast.

[Sajin]

Question time!!
@Sajin - Do you believe the miller claim?

Miller claims are null tell for me. The best way to deal with such a claim is to vig them if they are scummy. Unless they are quite obviously town. I do not think snow bunny is obviously town and therefore should be vigged.

@KMD- Interesting. So I am scum with a group of other people based on meta? How does that work? I find it far more likely that your basically copying spyrex's theory word for word and just providing a reason because you were called out on it.

I'm pretty sure I really don't.

Your 2 statements do not mesh with each other.

@Socio- I did not ask for any information from another players role PM nor did anyone else. Stark volunteered this information when jumping on DNote's wagon. Stark stated something I found as a contradiction and when I questioned him about it he tried to explain it off using different logic. Evidently others found the same thing questionable.

[Sajin]

@Stark- Using someone else's explanation for your own actions is incredibly scummy.

Well lets hear your meta then KMD. Since I have never been mafia while playing with you, this should be interesting.

[Sajin]

Spyrex- Can you summarize your case on Jordan?

I am still convinced on Stark though. Now he wants to downplay his slip, but he was willing to lynch for a similar but opposing mistake. Go figure.

[Sajin]

Miller claims should not be lynched day 1 unless there are no other leads to pursue (hint, there are). If a miller claim is lynched day 1, its basically depriving everyone of a whole days worth of reads on a lynch as half the votes are based on policy.

I do not think SB should be vigged unless found scummy for other reasons. Then again I hate dealing with millers in LY/LO. I think it is far better to have them die at night then to have no reads on a wagon during the day. I never insinuated a day 1 vig.

The should be vigged comments were to all the people jumping on the wagon for policy reasons. I found that whole wagon scummy as it is a way to participate without your vote meaning anything.

So llama, what do YOU propose to do about SB?

[Sajin]

LLama- I agree with you. I also am saying that in a large game like this it makes sense for them to be vigged over lynched- should they be found scummy.

I never said shoot them day 1 period no ifs ands or buts. You were leading your question like that.

[Sajin]

Vigged over lynched. 100 percent agreed.

Where did I ever say d1?

[Sajin]

Because we get zero reads off a immediate miller lynch. Did you see the wagon that formed that was "OMG it is a miller, lynch her!"? Yeah....bad.

While a lynch based on other merits is fruitful a lynch on them because they are a miller is not. I agree, if we find SB scummy for other reasons then a lynch is completely warranted. I would completely support a vig who shot a miller though.

Hopefully that cleared up my stance.

llama- What do you think of stark?

[Sajin]

Llama- I am against a miller claim being lynched for the claim alone.

I would agree with a vig who wanted to shoot a miller claim.




@llama- No I did not connect that council=town from my PM. As stated before.

How the heck are you seeing stark as town leaning? At best, without considering the slip, nor considering the incredibly bad explanations he has posted for it he could be seen as neutral. Exactly what has he contributed that has been town leaning in your view?

[Sajin]

Spyrex- Can you summarize your case on Jordan?

I am still convinced on Stark though. Now he wants to downplay his slip, but he was willing to lynch for a similar but opposing mistake. Go figure.

Have you played mafia before?

Since when does a day 1 vote = willing to lynch?

Willing to lynch is riding a stupid, foundationless wagon.

So you were not willing to lynch the bandwagon that you quickly jumped on? Seriously? Then explain the reasoning of why you voted. (And no one else better answer this for him)


@Llama- You just posted the difference a few posts back!!!! A lynch you get reads on who is willing to lynch and who is not.

And llama- This is an argument about why other people are scummy in your view. It is NOT why stark is town. I still await your explanation. And while my vote started on just that tell on him, the case has grown. Did you see how stark tried to explain it off?

[Sajin]

I see no explanation for your vote in the above post stark. Still waiting.

[Sajin]

@Llama- You reply was why you thought other people were scummy, not why you thought stark was town. What scum hunting has stark done in your opinion?

A policy lynch and a policy vig are not the same thing.

[Sajin]

Um. That's a mad partial claim....

Why did you feel the need to claim this?

[Sajin]

OK so you are the equivalent of a suicide bomber role?

Can we get some

fries

flavor with that?


Does using this ability end the day?

[Sajin]

@KMD- Correct me if I am wrong, but you have never seen me as scum. So why the forced meta read?

There is significant random distractions to the stark wagon which increase my confidence that he is mafia.


@Deathnote- If you were willing to self vote earlier, why are you worried about being blown-up now?

[Sajin]

KMD- I have been just this aggressive in many other games. Which is why this is a forced read. The only motivation you have to do this is if you are scum with my votee trying to shake this wagon lose. So how strong of a power does stark have anyways?

KMD+Stark for scum.

[Sajin]

DN what the hell is with that partial claim? I am getting irritated at all of these partial claims. DN explain why you said you needed to survive a night. I can think of more scum roles (cult, yakuza, etc) that need a night then good.

Any of DN Stark or snowbunny needs to go. All 3 of these are the most informative for us and essentially give us an extra lynch.

Also- I wish I was a suicide bomber. That role sounds right up my alley. The only game I ever got that ability I never got to use it. Sigh.

I also like where llama is going with this. DN what do you think of snowbunny? Stark, what do you think of DN?

@Kise- What the hell is with that rolefishing?

[Sajin]

....so this is KMDGate round two?

My lord.

@Kise: I get what you were saying (and am confused how Plum thought you were sarcastic).

I just think, like I said way back, this setup lends itself too well to claim / shift / claim / shift which pushes the information even more into being useful for scum.

Claim / kill or Claim / SHIFTKILL is my motif this time.

QFT


Claim shift claim shift is most beneficial to scum. The fact that Kise was actually advocating this is retarded.

[Sajin]

Jordan, props for the fake suicide. Combining his reaction to the fake daykill plus the earlier wagon lead me to assume DN is town. I for one am willing to at least grant him a day.

A stark or snowbunny flip would be the most informational. I strongly prefer stark. I have getting strong resistance to this wagon once it got rolling.

[Sajin]

@Llama- Depends on circumstances and the person involved. Some people are very easy reads and some are not. People can act different then usual for a number of reasons. My point was that KMD cannot have meta information that he suggested. He has never seen me as anything but town.

Llama- You have seen me as town (Nasubi mafia). Can you conclude off of that?

I figured I would like to know how all 3 of the wagons felt about each other. In the past I have read well off the information of leading wagons feelings about one another. I assumed that is what you were doing so I asked a few more questions. If not, thats ok too. I still like my questions.

Now I think I see where your going with your line of questioning. Its good, but forgive me if I just view it as another distraction from a good wagon.

[Sajin]

For those of you who have not commented at all on Stark I would like to know why not. If I have to make a list of players who have ignored the subject I will.

[Sajin]

That is a theory question. If someone wins a pot at poker because they bluffed you and then give you a similar tell in a similar situation the next pot, are they bluffing? It depends on the player. I cannot answer such a general question more specifically.

[Sajin]

Well we have a miller claim in this one so lets use that. First game they are town and want to lynch, next game they are defending the claim. What do you do?

I would be incredibly suspect. Has snow called for a miller instant lynch before?

[Sajin]

Incoming long post: The summary of the case on stark.

Where does it say what is town anywhere? Is it listed that Council=town? If so, point it out to me please.

It should say it in your PM, scum.

unvote

Vote: DeathNote

He votes deathnote for claiming something is in a town PM that some people have claimed is not there. I vote him and question him about it. It should be obvious since deathnote is town that this is scum hopping on the badwagon of town for a false reason. He has NEVER adequately explained this statement.

Where does it say what is town anywhere? Is it listed that Council=town? If so, point it out to me please.

It should say it in your PM, scum.

unvote

Vote: DeathNote

Explain this stark. Now. Are you mafia or 3rd party?

unvote; vote: Stark

....

1. The game begins with the death of "The Giver"
2. "The Giver", as stated in the introduction, is aligned with the Council
3. "The Giver"'s name has been written in green.
4. Green is the color asigned to all dead player/NPCs aligned with the town.
5. I am aligned with the council


I don't understand how this was even a question.

He does not reaffirm what he said before but instead tries to explain it off using the opening post. This is different logic then he originally used.

@Llama- You reply was why you thought other people were scummy, not why you thought stark was town. What scum hunting has stark done in your opinion?

A policy lynch and a policy vig are not the same thing.

Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot I was supposed to do that in all the free time I had when not defending myself from the stupidwagon.

He openly admits he has not been scumhunting. In his 5th post he was willing to hop on a bandwagon so quickly. And yet here he says he has not scumhunted yet. His limited scum hunting efforts since then have been exclusively of the miller claim.

DGB, what do you think of stark?

KMD- What do you think of stark?

Sociopath- What do you think of stark?

[Sajin]

Stark- Why not address the concerns and explain your reasons as well as scum hunt?

[Sajin]

Benmage's reaction to my fake kill was obvscum.

I very rarely believe in slips. They are rare, but they can happen.

If you were certain of this when you did this then why did you push for deathnote before pushing for benmage?

How many trees must you cut down with your chain saw before the whole rainforest is lynched?

[Sajin]

And yet when Stark made an equal but opposite slip as the "slip" that everyone called deathnote out on you think that is not a sufficient case?

[Sajin]

Deathnote slip that everyone called him out on was deathnote not understanding that he was town based on his PM.

Stark said his PM made it crystal clear that he was town.

Do you see the contradiction?

[Sajin]

I support the KMD lynch, he has changed stances so many times today. He was on a bandwagon of a now dead town as well (it might of even been both of them). Not to mention he always seems to get scum roles when he plays with me.

unvote; vote: KMD

[Sajin]

@plum/stark- So what I also listed KMD as doing do you not consider a scum tell or do you consider it a town tell? While I agree it alone is not indicative as anything, surely it is not a good thing to have a bad track record. Voting for that alone would be bad reasoning I agree.

[Sajin]

@plum/stark- So what I also listed KMD as doing do you not consider a scum tell or do you consider it a town tell? While I agree it alone is not indicative as anything, surely it is not a good thing to have a bad track record. Voting for that alone would be bad reasoning I agree.

To be honest, I'm not sure if I have a very good read on KMD. But in terms of "track record", a case needs to be more substantial than that.

Are you planning on claiming, KMD?

Did you read at all what you just quoted?

When will you start contributing?

[Sajin]

[quote="SpyreX"]Not Voting: Rosso Carne, Snow_Bunny, Kise, milkshake, vollkan,

SpyreX

, VP Baltar, Benmage, dramonic, SocioPath, Sajin, KaleiÐoscøpe, Vaya, Papa Zito, Battle Mage, DrippingGoofball, Plum, tubby216, chamber, SerialClergyman, LlamaFluff, stark

I'm not dead, dont you worry about that none.

Confused at what the hell happened and if someone would love to explain that'd be pro.[/quote]

@Spyrex- How are you sure your not dead if you are asking what happened?



Also, reading populartajo in iso right before the day ends is interesting.

[Sajin]

[quote="Sajin"][quote="SpyreX"]Not Voting: Rosso Carne, Snow_Bunny, Kise, milkshake, vollkan,

SpyreX

, VP Baltar, Benmage, dramonic, SocioPath, Sajin, KaleiÐoscøpe, Vaya, Papa Zito, Battle Mage, DrippingGoofball, Plum, tubby216, chamber, SerialClergyman, LlamaFluff, stark

I'm not dead, dont you worry about that none.

Confused at what the hell happened and if someone would love to explain that'd be pro.[/quote]

@Spyrex- How are you sure your not dead if you are asking what happened?



Also, reading populartajo in iso right before the day ends is interesting.[/quote]

Requoted for you spyrex. I want an answer.

Vote: Stark

Makes perfect sense with kublai's flip as well as him still being unhelpful plus the previous observations of him.

[Sajin]

Role-fishing. Scum.

That's not role-fishing, that's asking you the effect of someone else's role, scum. Someone that has already claimed.

DIE

I completely agree. Withholding a piece of the puzzle is anti-town. I dislike your voting of spyrex while witholding information that could confirm his role. What is the new ability?

Spyrex- Assuming the nature of your potion is downright stupid. What flavor justification did you have to assume that?

That said, Would the people voting spyrex explain if they think he is going to die tomorrow by the flavor? If you think he will die anyways, why would we waste a lynch here?

@Stark- Actual scumhunting. I am amazed. I like your points on rosso.

[Sajin]

I am still not voting SB because I think it is a bad wagon. I 100 percent think she needs to spill that ability asap though.

[Sajin]

I am still not voting SB because I think it is a bad wagon. I 100 percent think she needs to spill that ability asap though.

Ok, you want me to claim, I have a one-shot cop ability. There, happy? It was not the point of hiding the ability, but the eagerness of some of you to make me claim.

Is not paying attention a scumtell?

If it's a bad wagon does that mean you think SB is town?

If you think SB is town why do you need to know the ability?

Inquiring minds want to know!

I missed that, thanks. This thread moves like lightning sometimes. I do not fault anyone for missing the occasional thing in this thread.

Based on the suspects of my suspects and the dead, yes I think Snow is town. I wanted to know the ability because I thought withholding that information would not be in the best interest of town for trying to put this puzzle together. Bleh, I was hoping it would be a roleblock or a vig as they can help confirm herself.

In any case I find it incredibly stupid to lynch someone who claims to have received a 1 shot cop investigation. If they flip scum sure, no loss. But, if they flip town then we lose more information we could of had.

[Sajin]

He asked for your opinion, not a relative ranking.

And yet I hope it would be easy to infer from his position on the list that I'd be against his lynch anytime soon.

He is not asking that you think he is town or scum. Everyone gets that.

He (and others) want to know: WHY?

Added to this: Why do you want to post a list and not provide reasons? Taking a stance without reason is scummy.

unvote; Vote: Chamber

@Spyrex/all- Yes your theory sucks. In fact, the whole -er theory sucks. The only observation that holds true is that everyone's role names start with "The". Anything beyond that I am viewing as a mass rolefishing attempt to get people to say one way or another what abilities they may or may not have.

@Serial- Are you told what the ability you absorbed is or just that you received one?

@VP- If you want my vote somewhere else you will need to summarize a case. Not just call for it. Its very hard for me to respond to piecemeal quotes with one liners.

[Sajin]

@Serial- Are you told what the ability you absorbed is or just that you received one?

[Sajin]

@Chamber I am still waiting on your response to post 1625.

@Tubby- Not being willing to answer questions does not help the the town in any way shape or form. So unless you think you have a good reason, you should answer.

Unvote; Vote: Tubby

[Sajin]

Oh this game.

@Plum- Is sociopath scum? Why did you not say this before when you attempted to confirm someone else? I want to know your thought process here.

[Sajin]

I just realized something.

Kscope, who clearly isn't paying attention to anything at all and is therefore scum, voted for tubby, when Benmage was one vote behind tubby. Therefore, Kscope isn't scum with tubby, he's scum with Benmage whose keister he just tried to save.

vote: Benmage

I like this. This is far better than your "it must be bussing!" paranoia. I like me some good chainsaw defense paranoia instead.

unvote; vote: Benmage

[Sajin]

That quick wagon was fail.

I am down with a milkshake lynch but not until after he claims. If nothing else it could be more info.

[Sajin]

Dramonic had very little reason to claim if he was scum. Scum roleblocker would be a powerful role in a setup like this.

[Sajin]

I still support a stark lynch.

I am curious as to why you Baltar are not concerned about him anymore. Is this because you were worried about him being lynched so you wanted to be on the other side in case things went south quick? If he does indeed flip scum I think you are as well. What changed between then and now?

Milkshake can be my 3rd as I really do think dramonic has it right. I do not think his role really fits anyways- a cop insanity clearer? It sticks out like a sore thumb from every other role.

[Sajin]

1- There is no case on me other than my post quantity. I have contributed far more than several other people with low post counts. Can I get a case please? If it is simply post quantity then why do people not attack Battlemage for that? A known spammer that has been posting a lot less this game.

2- I am tunneling Stark because it is a good case. No one has attacked that case at all they have either ignored it or fled elsewhere. Stark himself has ignored my accusations. I find a good case and pound at it as I do in every game as town.

[Sajin]

I do not mind claiming, but I want to see a case and a reason for every vote on me. Not doing so is extremely scummy.

[Sajin]

And a softclaim so that I am not quicklynched before I even see the thread:

@Benmage- Did you recieve anything last night?

[Sajin]

I do not mind claiming, but I want to see a case and a reason for every vote on me. Not doing so is extremely scummy.

Ugh, obviously you didnt get the memo. This is hilariously scummy.

BM

So you would have me lynched before I can even give my information out?

[Sajin]

So is that a no then?

[Sajin]

Did you recieve anything last night?

[Sajin]

Stop backpedling around my question.

[Sajin]

@Sociopath- Was I roleblocked?

@Benmage- What is your ability type? Active, Passive or Special?

In case you have not figured this out my targets were Snowbunny N1 and Benmage N2. Need these answers before I say what my ability does.

[Sajin]

Calling my role bogus before I have said it? Sheesh.

I targeted snowbunny N1 and Benmage N2. I am so young as to not had my naming ceremony yet. I am the son of The Giver and as such was born very close to the Goma. Everyone expected me to grow up to succeed my father someday, but he, The Giver, has been found dead. Now all alone, I must try to help in any way I can.

I have an active ability that's nature is unknown to me because I am not well practiced in its use. I targeted Snowbunny with it n1 to try and figure out the flavor of it. I figured if it killed her thats a plus, I would be told if I was a informational role. Etc etc. She claimed to have received a cop investigation. I reread my flavor text and I assumed that was me. It also made me think she was town. I targeted Benmage figuring if he is indeed the vanilla that he says he was he could make use of a power. Now I bet he received a power from me and is not claiming such. I now doubt his vanillaness.

Since my ability appeared verifiable, I decided to play low key today. Since I was called out as the lyncher target of 3rd party I figured this was the best play as well.

[Sajin]

@Mod- Is there a typo in my PM?

[Sajin]

Mod PMed me back- The giver is indeed a male.

[Sajin]

The MOD TOLD ME male and now says he clarified female by PM.

@Mod am I allowed to quote this communication?

[Sajin]

The mod did clarify male, then in a later PM clarified female and admitted to typos. Father is not mentioned in my PM that is my paraphrasing which I assumed to be male. I do not see anyone believing this until I flip though.

Whatever, I am The Unknown. My ability type is listed as ???. I targeted Snowbunny and Benmage as claimed. The flavor behind my role is not very strong at all so I added to it. I really do not know what my ability does. In fact it probably does nothing and I am a vanilla of the setup. Which makes sense with KMD wanting to lynch me and kill Benmage. Makes me believe Benmage more as I strongly believe KMD was a multiple part lyncher.

New suspects:

Battlemage is trying to draw a false 1v1 between myself and spyrex. That is extremely scummy. Also he picked up participation now that he was called out on it.

VP is likely town this game. SC is depending on what he does with VP's ability. Watch him for it. Also SC I think you should steal BM's ability.

@Spyrex- No I did not question you about that. I really do not know what my ability does. You do not either as as I recall you thought the potion reflected for a whole day. But hey lets assume I am the dud here. I think spyrex really has that ability and is town.

@VP- My streak will continue.

And Benmage- I am curious to know the meta you have on me. I assume your refering to WoT. Preferably you share your meta reason with the team both before my lynch and why it was wrong afterwords.




Dramonic is town. I read dramonic extremely well and I have lynched him correctly before.

Lynch order imo: Battlemage, Milkshake, Zito

If milkshake flips mafia, Zito is likely scum as well. If milkshake flips SK then Zito is town.

Battlemage is scum either way.

I think the psychic neighbors are both town. But I do not read Plum well, Vaya is obv town.



Sorry if that is disorganized.

[Sajin]

Here and still town. Not going to self vote and cut off discussion.

Go ahead llama.

[Sajin]

@SpyreX: You want me dead too? That's new.
@PZ: stop tunneling, start case building

Unvote
Vote: Sajin

For a son of the giver the rats sure hate you <_<

I am the rats. Special power type thing (as in not active/passive). Self-aligned. Flavor is that I lived in the sewers,

was Sajin's slave

, [...]

You really think that I am mentioned by forum name in someone's flavor box? Seriously.....

But I do believe he had to lynch me. I wonder if he can win from the graveyard.

[Sajin]

My role PM mentions The Giver and the Head Namer. No mention about rats. Or the rat tamer. Or enslaving.

I do not think I left out anything very relevant.

I do not believe I was mentioned by forum name in KMD's role PM. Either it would be role name or non existent. I do think he probably had to lynch/kill you and I, Benmage. My point being that KMD obviously edited that in. Disagree?

No Ben, this is how I play as town. I know I am hard to read as I like to keep all my opinions until I get pressured and then post them all before my inevitable lynch. For the record I was attacking someone early in WoT (who was my mafia partner but I did not know this at the time) and then had to be forced down by town members. Ask Spyrex. I hardly think that it was flying under the radar play there.

[Sajin]

Wait so if you think he had to kill the rodent tamer then where did you and I fit in? He accused me of being a SK and you of being the rodent tamer as I recall. Tajo did not fit in.

More likely he just had to lynch/kill the 2 of us? Dunno.

For role balancing sake I would find it interesting if KMD was a SK that only became such after the rodent tamer died. It would be a great mechanical way of limiting kills (only a vig or a SK each night, perhaps he even got the roleblock that his musician claim said he did) and in exchange making his win condition easier once he could make kills? Would be tenable.

[Sajin]

I targeted Snowbunny and Benmage as claimed.

Why haven't we heard from Benmage about this?

I don't think Saijin is scum- these past few pages have left me wondering

alot

about Benmage though.

Also, I'm still wondering if we've adressed Snow_Bunny and her not-much-of-an-investigation directly enough or if she's more just been forgotten. I'm aware Saijin-town confirms (sort of/ish?) Snow_Bunny but with there still being nine votes on him and all...

Have you read the last 3 pages? Blah.

Milkshake, what are your opinions of Spyrex and dramonic?

[Sajin]

2 things that got sidetracked during this lynch that I wanted to know about.

We were blocked, we have no results.

Wait...One of you gets blocked and you both get blocked?

Because Plum got blocked. Plum claimed you did the actions of role/namecopping and she just got the info from the mod aswell....

^^^Vaya ever answer this?

Didn't SP go AH HAH! And caught Plum saying he roleblocked but Plum got the info from Vaya so it wasnt blocked...now dram is saying he jailkeeps plum and they dont get get the info...something isn't adding up.

And Kise

I liked the 30 minute response..but now you've disappeared again.

I believe they claimed that one of them gets to choose who is doing the targeting. One of the reasons I think they are likely both town or both scum is due to their ability sharing. Since I think Vaya is town, plum follows.

(who is not paying attention now, Mr. Criticizer!)

[Sajin]

Plum's post-Iso 92

Scum now know that they can block me, but if my partner stays secret that player can perform the action instead with less risk of getting blocked (and yes, there was a good reason that even though I was exposed yesterday we decided that I should took the action; but keeping my partner secret may still be beneficial for the reason listed above in the future).

Vaya confirmed later I believe. They also claimed they BOTH receive the result.

[Sajin]

Wow, 3 pages in half a day.

Ok, regarding Sajin, there's something I don't understand from his claim about targeting me and my now-gone ability. Why didn't he say anything when I claimed that and Spyrex claimed that he gave me a potion?

I'm buying his claim right now. The confusion about his parent's gender (lol) confirms it to me. However, that doesn't confirm alignment. In fact, it's quite possible the son tried to kill his father/mother, or something like that.

Because although flavor wise it makes a ton of sense to me....its the same reason I did not claim when Spyrex claimed his potion of death reflected back onto him: I am ultimately unsure of what my ability does. Could I have reflected his potion back onto him? At the time I thought it was quite possible. Then the next day when things changed and SC claimed to have been the cause of the death scene and spyrex figured he caused the 1 shot- was I supposed to claim then?

No. All I could do is express belief in snowbunny that she really did receive the 1 shot. And while that was not assured it seemed a likely interaction.

Not to mention mass claiming is stupid... from both a strategical and fun point of view.

[Sajin]

Sample PM:

Power Type:

Active, Passive, Special, or...???

Someone is taking the sample role PM too literally

Yet this is exactly what my PM states. ??? type. Role name The Unknown.

I could of made a stronger claim that was not so weird. As it was I did not claim these until I felt like I was to be quick lynched. So I posted the truth so that everyone else could figure it out as best as they are able when I am dead. If I was mafia or 3rd party I would be claiming that my role was affected by weather or insane cop or even a protective role. I am totally aware that these aspects are awkward at best. I left them out before for a reason.

I would like to have the people that are voting me for the gender thing to at least acknowledge both the the mods clarifications before I am ultimately lynched. And then for them to post why they are still voting me. Will make it easier to find the scum on my wagon. I really hate case less votes whether they are on me or someone else. A case less vote only helps scum. This applies to Vaya, Plum, dramonic VP, chamber and Spyrex.


Also I would like to point out that BM called my role BS before I claimed, called it BS after I claimed and somewhere in the middle insisted I was CCing Spyrex so that he could push Spyrex tomorrow. This implies that he knows what I will flip.

Vote: BattleMage

[Sajin]

Another Mod Note: It is only fair that this be stated, Sajin did PM me, and I did tell him The Giver was male. I checked the notes and realized my error. In some PMs, I referred to the Giver as male in others female. Purely flavor.

People should really read the whole thread. Kise- comment on this now please.

[Sajin]

Then you admit that the gender issue is null? And therefore your voting me for lurking when you yourself have been lurking far far more?

If that is indeed vote worthy to you: Do you consider yourself scummy?

[Sajin]

The same qualities that make me unreadble as scum make me unreadable as town.

The fact that I have had little to no idea what my role actually does does not help.

I thought I was a vig night 1. Day 2 I was figuring inventor or reflector. Day 3 I figure I am a vanilla or possible inventor. You should figure THAT into your meta analysis. You yourself said I play different as a cop then I do as vanilla.

Blah. But fine, meta is a better reason then oh my god flavor issue. At least we can hold you to that.


@Chamber- Excellent. Share with the class? Before and after please.

If I am going to be misslynched today I am going to make damn sure everyone on my wagon is accountable.

[Sajin]

Sajin: You realize Tubby claimed he hid behind Battle Mage and survived y/n?

Not before now. I just looked it up. Hmm.

I still do not like BM's reasonings. But yes, I would rather not test BM yet. Blah.

Can you at least post an accountable reasoning for your vote then Plum?

[Sajin]

I got to L-1 with a cop having a guilty on someone else ><

Easy way to test this though.

Unvote; Vote: dramonic

But now I am hella confused about the milkshake dramonic, Zito traingle votes.

[Sajin]

Did I count correctly when there are 10 people claimed and there are 16 people left? Yeah we are pretty much at massclaim point.


I say the non contributors of BM and Kise get to claim first if we go through with it.

Also food for thought- There are 15 votes available. 16 people left. I triple checked.

[Sajin]

Tubby is the only thing keeping me from voting Battle who I think is obv scum.

Vote: Tubby

L-2 then I think.

Your up Stark

[Sajin]

i think you are full of it. it is highly possible that PZ was killed prior to my hide going through. so in essence i did not hide at all last night. I never receive wether or not my hides are successful. All i get is that the mod received my pm.

Nowhere in the history of mafia would a kill resolve before a hide. That simply does not make sense. That's like having a vig resolve before a roleblocker. It negates the function of the role.

I absolutely and totally agree.

Tubby your claim is absolutely horrible and makes no sense give your later target claims and the thread results.


I have no drugs that I know of. (and I would like to point out that when I was being pressured yesterday, stark was asking if I had "anything else" that I was leaving out of my role. I assume this is what he meant, now)

[Sajin]

Considering Zito died I do not think we have a protective role, VP.

Unless, there was some bus driving going on by scum. That would explain a Zito death with a protective role going on. Could also explain Tubby's failed hide if he is legit. Could. But not very likely.


Meh.


@Tubby- The point of a hider is to clear people. Not to be protected. Why were you targeting a guy who was obv town at that point?

[Sajin]

For the record I am not sold on the cult theory at all. Tubby's claim is making absolutely no sense so it gets my vote.

I find that Plum was wanting to not pressure Battlemage becuase of Tubby most interesting now though considering tubby is likely not really a hider.

@Spyrex- I think scum wanted to get rid of the other kill and this had far less to do with me. Your ignoring the fact that dramonic was on my wagon and trying to use a statement that shows he was going after the other kill to convince others he was defending me. What are your thoughts on Plum and Battlemage?

[Sajin]

@Benmage- That is not vanilla.

Also, is your ability permanent? I keep noticing vote counts that contain "whole votes available". I assume multiple people could have half votes.

[Sajin]

Unvote; Vote: BattleMage

This vote will go away if he claims in his next post.

This vote might go away if it takes longer than that.

[Sajin]

Unvote; Vote: BattleMage

This vote will go away if he claims in his next post.

This vote might go away if it takes longer than that.

so disregard that vote. For that vote is not a real vote at all. Merely a "hey look everyone i am applying noncommittal pressure vote that just means i wanna look like i am doing something."

Meh. I have thought Battlemage was scum ever since he wanted me lynched because I do not know what my ability does but before that insisted Spyrex and I were CCing each other. He was looking for an easy 2 for 1.

I think you need to go first though. A claimed hider who is not a hider is stupid.

[Sajin]

Yep, one of ben and elmo are scum, guaranteed.

..sorry, how? That looks pretty freaking scummy. There's no conflict between what we've said about our roles, and it's very natural that we'd both be town, moreso because he talked about halving a vote as opposed to reducing it to a half, implying the mod didn't design the role with targeting me in mind. So what the hell?

A claim from elmo would help matters.

I already claimed my role; I don't really see how claiming flavour can help, but I guess it can't hurt, either. I'm the Dark Goma Influencer; I've been trying to fix what I perceive as a broken system of government, so some might suspect I was involved with the Giver's death; I assume the converters killed the Giver. My vote counts twice.

Elmo, can you explain how Stark's flavor and yours can both be true?

[Sajin]

stark you feel stupid? you are about to look stupid!

Is this compared to your hider claim?

[Sajin]

I will hold target in case BM tracked me.

@Milkshake, nothing happened to me that the mod told me.

[Sajin]

I dont think Elmo is town. Two town vote manipulators doesn't seem logical to me. I am obviously town. This is my #1 desire entering today, the BM SP fiasco will allow me to put this off 1 day.

This is bad reasoning. Kise is the other claimed vote manipulator. Yet, you use this argument that VP made to push for Elmo's lynch.

Yet Kise is no where on your list. Why?

Also, who did you target last night, ben?

[Sajin]

I honestly can't decide if that level of not paying attention is lynch worthy or not.

Elmo has a half vote. I was asking Ben if it was permanent or not yesterday. Elmo asked ben if ben targeted him or not. Ben has not directly answered to my knowledge. If you think he has, point it out. This kind of posts is only noise.

[Sajin]

Missing mine.

I targeted VP Baltar.

Snowbunny
Benmage
Battlemage
VP Baltar

[Sajin]

I want to hear who sociopath blocked.

Then I am down with voting elmo.


(I targeted DGB, figured it was worth the shot)

[Sajin]

Should I claim my actual target or is not milk enough?

That works for me (hint Sociopath better not be dead any time soon)

[Sajin]

I do not think anyone was calmable. I do not think the weather does anything. I do not think cult detect does anything. I do not think my unknown power does anything.

These are all effective vanilla powers in the setup. Makes a lot of sense to me.

I am down with an elmo lynch.

Vote: Elmo

But I do support a kise lynch. When he is town he usually does not blow up in huge OMGUS arguements when attacked. Just as you said llama ignored you Kise, you ignored him until he attacked you yes?

[Sajin]

Vote: Elmo

The only people who haven't claimed targets are our docs(IMO, they don't need to let us and scum know who they are protecting, if no deaths are prevented), and Sajin(who probably doesn't do anything). I think we can get to lynching Elmo now.

I said I targeted DGB.

[Sajin]

Side note: I want a potion. I feel miffed at thinking I had an awesome action early game and I want one that does something.

But hey spyrex, feel free to try and pick a potion of death. I know you want to.

[Sajin]

VP, seriously? Sociopath was confirmed town and you did not protect him. Who was more worth protecting?

I targeted stark if it matters.

[Sajin]

That kill is interesting given that I had a 1-shot doc from spyre and used it on socio last night...

Now this is interesting indeed.

[Sajin]

Spyrex I have not received any potion to my knowledge.

It was either a passive effect or a dud.

[Sajin]

I really do not see why I am being pressured when I was the counter wagon to a scum wagon that most of the dead scum were all on. So I am unlikely mafia.

Additionally I was roleblocked so not the SK.

So I fail to see how I am likely at all.


Spyrex, your logic is faulty. I am scummy because I did not say anything and now I am scummy because I did not say what you wished to hear. I recieved no PM about a potion so how can I claim anything? You yourself were in BM's bastard game and so was our mod. Perhaps the mod took a note from that game with Vi's power. Alternatively perhaps it granted something passive.

I think Kise is likely scum here.

After that I think VP Baltar. There is no reason that sociopath should not have been protected. Especially considering the floundering VP did with his claim of not protecting.


Chamber is town. Llama is town. Spyrex is town but using bad logic. Vaya is town.

Kise or VP Baltar is the SK

Stark is number 3 on my list and is likely mafia.

I have no qualms hammering Kise.


Spyrex your numbers are off. 4 mafia dead, 1 3rd party dead. 24 people. I figure 1 sk 1 mafia left at most for 7 total. 8 would be 1/3 scum.

(And now that Legacy is done I can devote more time here if needed. Those 8 hour days were soaking up my time on MS)

[Sajin]

N1: Plum; 2 Kills; No Strangling.
N2: Elmo; 2 Kills
N3: Sajin; 2 Kills
N4: Battle Mage; 1 Kill; No Throat Slit
N5: stark; 2 Kills

N6 I will tentatively put chamber on the list for sociopath's roleblocks.

@Snowbunny- What is your motivation for asking me that question? I find it odd to ask someone if you yourself are suspicious to them.

[Sajin]

Really the ONLY situation I could be scum of any sort (barring two scum / 1 sk left which is still unlikely) is if scum can kill AND use their power in the same night AND the ability to kill isn't active.

I agree with this, otherwise batlemage would not have floundered so when asked by sociopath.

I still think its a group think on snowbunny. Can someone explain why snowbunny is likely to me based on more then gut? I find it unlikely a SK would go for a miller claim.

Spyrex you have yet to say why my role of ???? power typing is scummy beyond "I don't like it". The dead mafia have had quite a few practical abilities claimed that made sense with their name (Sniffer, bubble blower etc). Dramonic seemed to think he had that power and had caught the SK with it. So how is "Thats not a likely power" argument hold any weight in your opinion?

Besides if I was scum faking my claim, I would of made a way better one. You know I am a good claimer, in WoT I CCed a cop, got him lynched and was not lynched the next day and made it to endgame. If I was scum I wasted one of my best skills to no advantage. In fact seeing how stupid and scummy my role was, I did not post details that I noticed were different until L-1 when I felt like I was being lynched anyways. Funny how you repeat those same details to throw mud at me.

I still think at least 1 doctor is scum here. There is no reason why it could not be town/SK or mafia/town or even mafia/SK there. Notice how the confirmed town of sociopath died when I specifically asked the doctors to protect him somehow died and the kills have rarely/never been blocked (and when one was blocked I think sociopath did it to BM). For that reason I strongly believe VP Baltar is the SK. A fiting false claim, the doctor to his own role.

Vote: VP Baltar

Back to work, christmas is stupid busy for me.

[Sajin]

Hm? I believe I counted 4 votes on me, just the right amount for a happy mislynch.

You are at L-1.



I will not be voting snowbunny at this time. I think she is less likely scum then other candidates in my eyes. I have not seen sufficient points about why from the voters. They are into group think.

@VPBaltar- I do not know about you but I was not notified when I was roleblocked. You said you were notified. True it was from a different source, but explain to me how you as a non killing non information role would have an inkling about it?

The toucher thing is more creditable though.

@Spyrex- So I cannot even talk about the Wifom it is when I said "I know this is scummy but I am going to be lynched so I will tell you my ability type is ??? so that you have this info for future scum hunting" and then you say to me now "Hey, you claimed ??? ability typeing, that is scummy". See my problem with this?

Also, scum have had standard mafia roles on their side. Please explain to me why you think I am more likely mafia because my role sticks out? You state it like it should be obvious when I, looking at the flips so far, am not seeing it at all. Also, chaining lynches WILL lose you games.

@Llama- I cannot be strangler. I thought we went through this already (as quoted for VP). Thanks for not reading my posts.

[Sajin]

@Spyrex- So I cannot even talk about the Wifom it is when I said "I know this is scummy but I am going to be lynched so I will tell you my ability type is ??? so that you have this info for future scum hunting" and then you say to me now "Hey, you claimed ??? ability typeing, that is scummy". See my problem with this?

Also, scum have had standard mafia roles on their side. Please explain to me why you think I am more likely mafia because my role sticks out? You state it like it should be obvious when I, looking at the flips so far, am not seeing it at all. Also, chaining lynches WILL lose you games.

It. is. not. about. ???. it. is. about. what. your. role. does. and. your. play.

Yea, you're right about those standard roles:

25.) Kublai Khan, The Scribe, With the Converters, Devoured by many tiny little mouths Night 1
11.) dramonic, The Bubble Blower, With the Converters, Lynched Day 3
1.) tubby216, The Happy Hoppy Fuzzy Bunny, With the Converters, Lynched Day 4
3.) Battle Mage, The Sniffer, With the Converters, Lynched Day 5

I mean if you REALLY want I can easily flip my vote. It would even appease GHOST DAD.

Then make the play argument. I have not seen your case on that. Waiting.

Are you calling tracker hider jailkeeper and scribe not standard then?

[Sajin]

I do agree with what your saying about snowbunny though.

Who is scum, snow? And why?

[Sajin]

Because yes I am scum with Battlemage who was trying to tie Spyrex and I together under a false 1v1 when I claimed I may have given snowbunny a power. Absolutely.

Or I am the SK who can kill while he is roleblocked, yep.

Taking bets spyrex loses this game for town because he is stuck on generic town tells and scum tells and not reading the thread.

I am sticking up for what I believe is the correct lynch.

(hint, if I am not the SK, what role motivation could I possibly have at all to want to lynch the guy who claims to protect against SK attacks?)

Chamber's no reason vote is noted. Any lynch good for you at the moment?

Snowbunny still needs to answer my question.

[Sajin]

Again, I will say this: I am not voting you NOW because I think that between chamber's poision and SB's lynch the game will be done.

However, the dichotomy in which you are so flippant to defend yourself yet, ultimately, haven't given me a scenario in which it makes sense for Llama and VP to not share an alignment due to the precise nature of their claims and the order in which they occurred is flabbergasting.

And why are you so adamant that they are both town?

Game balance reasons?

[Sajin]

Balance is part of it. Play is another.

We get to massclaim and there has been no doctor role claimed. So, VP claims a half-doc. Which, of course is ballsy enough as scum but then we see the other side of the half-doc claimed and no counters.

So, is your counter-argument that VP SK was given specifically half-doc to claim? Or....

Exactly.

You would assume that its not in the realm of possibility?

[Sajin]

And there may be hope for this game. We are actually talking about stuff beyond "lynch this person because I said so"

[Sajin]

*sigh* I'm not known for my high activity in large games, btw. Just noting that.

I'm lost regarding some info in this game, and, if someone could remind me, is SpyreX confirmed town? Because I have this feeling from some time ago that he is scum. O wait, I just found the reasons why he can't be scum. Not the best, but I'll go along with them for now.

There's an interest thing I found on the doc thing. They both claimed half-doctors, and for that they are considered townie (having balls of steel or something like that). However, what if one is the SK and the other scum? One claimed first, claiming only half doctor. A CC wouldn't be a strong scumtell, as though the claim is odd, it's still possible. Then, the other, not knowing that the other one is actually lying, decides to go for the same, making it a good claim. So, I'm leaning towards one being the SK, and the other scum.

Vote: VP

I also didn't like that he commented that he knew he was roleblocked, when roleblockings aren't usually known to the player.

Are you using all my arguments because you do not want me to lynch you? Or what?

The likelihood of them both happening to fakeclaim half doctors is...low. My theory involves 1 given a safe claim and one being legit. Anything else is fairly unlikely.

[Sajin]

Fine.

unvote; vote: Snowbunny

I STILL dislike Spyrex's reasoning on all of his reads though.

[Sajin]

Also, it's been proven in thread that I can't be the SK and I had a hand in most of the scum lynches, so unless you think I bussed most of my team that is out of the question as well.

@VP-No VP. I have to correct you. Again.

I was roleblocked by a dead town roleblocker.
You claimed to be roleblocked by a town random actioner (as far as I can tell)
These 2 things are far different.

So explain to me, from anyone else's point of view but your own, how you are clear from being the SK.

Also you absolutely failed at post 3695.


Targets are not going to be helpful and may be harmful in llama's case. So let's pursue a different line of thought:

How many scum remain in everyone's opinion? 2 mafia? 1 SK, 1 mafia? etc etc.

@Chamber- what happened with your poison thing? If you do not know what happened, what do you think happened?

[Sajin]

Bleh. That is true VP.

@Llama

I would prefer a few questions get answered before any decision is made and I would rather weigh the pros and cons of no lynching in this situation.

You never answered my question nor are you allowing me to get my others asked.

Discussion is the lifeblood of the town and you would be advocating that if you were part of it.

Would it not be better for the scum to kill the SK?

Are you insinuating the SK is kill immune?

[Sajin]

And I thought of this way before both of you posted about it and is why I knew that VPB's post was bad play as scum or bad play as town both.


Thank you for artificially limiting town's options both of you. Fail play by whichever of you is town.


I originally had a few paragraphs typed up here but I decided it was better to save my analyisis for tomorrow if we are indeed depending on cross killing to win at this point.

I believe the correct play is to nl.

[Sajin]

(I have always seen with 4 votes in play, 2 to no lynch....but meh)

Vote: No lynch

[Sajin]

@Spyrex- I hope your still reading this game. I campaigned for days trying to get you to see this. It really sucks when the most obvious town person turns a blind eye to the most scummy people despite arguements. Town MUST have a doctor...right. I find it humorous that not just one but both are scum unless we have been getting owned by 1 faction with 2 kills.

VP- Who is mafia and who is the SK and why? Or other theory?

Llamafluff- Who is mafia and who is the SK and why? or other theory?

Best speech gets my vote. Go!

[Sajin]

Why we are all coming clean, I should as well:

My role was obviously meant to be a miller for the name cop(s). My flavor was so incredibly scummy and different from everyone else's that I changed it for my claim (yes you know that whole The Giver's gender thing? That was because of my fabrication).

My real flavor was that I was born with no power, the only one and that I could submit a name to the mod and maybe something would happen. And submit I have, once every damn night. I thought the 2 of you may find that humorous. Maybe not.

(Side note CKD, I hope you realize that my role PM felt just like your advocate PM on California Trilogy. I would not have even claimed I was the unknown if you did not put in bastardized town cops who evidently could really only catch me trying to not claim scummy but legit flavor. I find that INCREDIBLY STUPID)

I dislike you both for achieving zero cross kills.

But fair enough VPB: You asked for a no lynch and a no lynch it will be. The scum know who each other are. Something tells me the SK is kill immune though....so good luck with that, but if I were to lynch, it would be in favor of the SK anyways.

Keep in mind that killing me gives yourself a 0 percent win chance. Good luck!

Vote: No Lynch

[Sajin]

Wonder what this does with both of us being NK immune?

Then its a draw and I will share in the glory of that draw. Even if it is indeed from the graveyard.

Or you can leave me alive. Up to you.

[Sajin]

I was night kill immune! I thought that it was a possibility but I brushed it off because of my ability submission.

Those PMs I sent you are now hilarious to me.

I was Bink. CKD will know what I mean by that. Heh.

VPB, if you thought I was nightkill immune why lynch snowbunny over me?

At least I was right on all the things I called VPB out on. Informed of a roleblock as a doc? Yeah...right.