The Dark Goma Mafia: Massacre of the Cloth (Game Over)

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

The rate I get caught up in this game will be directly linked to people coming to their senses that 10 pages a day actually hurts the town (see Death Note mafia). I would guess tonight though, I have no life like that.

[LlamaFluff]

Did a super brief skim. SB needs to claim flavor, although im inclined to believe miller claims. Also no one point me to a game where scum claimed miller else you want me to point you back at four miller claims (including death millers *shudder*) from games ive been in from town. Miller is to be taken at face value, lynch if they are scummy, dont lynch if they are townie.

Also people really need to pay attention to the "consolidate posts" thing I brought up. A page should not magically appear during lunch hour. Especially if a third of it is from one player.

[LlamaFluff]

Question time!!

@Socio - Jordan or Ben lynch? Why?
@Vaya - What about the wording of the miller claim makes you disbelieve it? Also do you belive it?
@Sajin - Do you believe the miller claim?
@tubby - Have you played a game with a miller claim before?
@milk - Now that we know that investigation thing was false, thoughts on what is happening?

[LlamaFluff]

Dont ignore my question there SP

[LlamaFluff]

Question time!!

@Socio - Jordan or Ben lynch? Why?
@Vaya - What about the wording of the miller claim makes you disbelieve it? Also do you belive it?
@Sajin - Do you believe the miller claim?
@tubby - Have you played a game with a miller claim before?
@milk - Now that we know that investigation thing was false, thoughts on what is happening?

Too much questions, but yet no opinion on its own. This is usually a tactic by scum to disguise themselves as pro-town players. I don't like this.

Been in the game for well under 100 posts hun, trying to get some thoughts ironed out before I go into normal play mode. Spoilers say that one of the people I asked a question to get my vote though.

Question time!!
@Sajin - Do you believe the miller claim?

Miller claims are null tell for me. The best way to deal with such a claim is to vig them if they are scummy. Unless they are quite obviously town. I do not think snow bunny is obviously town and therefore should be vigged.

at this point, vig SB tonight, yes or no.

@Vaya - What about the wording of the miller claim makes you disbelieve it? Also do you belive it?

Her flavor, however, seems believable. It's not too straight-forward about why she's a miller, and overall doesn't really sound completely made up. I'm leaning toward believing its real right now.

So is that a yes?

Can someone also give me a good consise version of why stark is being wagoned? Im trying to string it together and cant tell if I am missing something or if its grasping at straws.

[LlamaFluff]

Can someone also give me a good consise version of why stark is being wagoned? Im trying to string it together and cant tell if I am missing something or if its grasping at straws.

Basically, stark said that there was enough information on the pm to know that the council was town.

He is wrong but as I said, I can see some people assuming they were town for diverse factors (no partners in pm, having already checked the op)

So the debate here is that we dont know if stark is town being wrong about the pm being strictly clear or council=town or if he is scum trying to look as town with the information provided in the op to make a case against someone that failed at confirming his alignment.

So stark is getting wagoned for thinking that his role was town aligned and people think it could of easily been misinterpreted?

I really dont understand. Someone voting stark maybe help me out?

@DN - Why is stark scum? You are not allowed to quote anyone but stark for this answer
@milk - Who is scummy?

[LlamaFluff]

@DN - Why is stark scum? You are not allowed to quote anyone but stark for this answer

Lol

Note to everyone: don't ask me questions with restrictions, I wont listen.

Its a perfectly legitimate question, DN has never mentioned stark apart from the vote of him, and even then it was only in the actual vote. Its a wagon I dont get, he should be able to explain it to me since he supports it.

[LlamaFluff]

@ lama yes i played a couple games with millers on site and got burrned buy them don't like they should be lynched and lynched early when the town still has the numbers to recover.

Links?

Death millers should claim early on Day 1 and accept their quick Day 1 lynch.

Disagree with this too. Last game I played with a death miller, their wagon was half mafia/SK. Maybe its not having played ever with someone faking miller (I can off the top of my head count three games with millers) but its not an auto-lynch claim.

For the whole stark thing, I really dont like the wagon. The implication seems strong that council=town, while never outright saying it. How he reacts when challenged is a bit off how I would of in that case, but I still dont see any reliable tell here. Ive got my picks down to three and once a few more answers to what I have out comes in I will have a vote up.

[LlamaFluff]

Hi Sajin!

You apparently missed my follow up question

At this point do you think SB should be vigged N1? Why? Lynched?

[LlamaFluff]

I do not think SB should be vigged unless found scummy for other reasons. Then again I hate dealing with millers in LY/LO. I think it is far better to have them die at night then to have no reads on a wagon during the day.

I never insinuated a day 1 vig

.

Bull

Millers are increibly uninformative lynches (because you cannot read peoples votes well as the reason for voting is policy based).

I suggest a miller claim be vigged

.

So what changed in such a short timespan? What is the difference between a day one policy lynch and a day one policy vig? Also since you seem to support it, why is SB scummy? Why DN over SB?

So llama, what do YOU propose to do about SB?

You treat the claim as a VT claim. If they are scummy, you lynch them. If they are not, you dont. Quite simple.

[LlamaFluff]

Not Voting: DrippingGoofball, alvins95, Rosso Carne, LlamaFluff, Snow_Bunny, Kise

You know whats awesome? Since I posted that:

Kise, Llama, DGB AND Alvinz all post.

Ohh wait, that's the antithesis of awesome.

Once tubby answers my question I will have a vote. Should be fairly obvious who is the front runner for my vote is however.

[LlamaFluff]

Miller claims should not be lynched day 1

Wrong. Millers should always be lynched ASAP.

Wrong.

Here are my experiences with miller wagons

MafiaSSK -10 (

Starbuck, Llamafluff

,

populartajo magnus_orion

,

Stephoscope, MafiaSSK, Lamont_Cranston, Gorrad, kmd4390, WLC

)

All but four living scum on the wagon, two of which were being replaced. A majority of the end of the votes were purely for deadline reasons

zwet - (

hp, lixyl

,

fabian, esomonty

,

reckoner, santos

,

emptyger

,

drench

)

This one had wierd voting mechanics that continually caused VC to reset all but one scum and the SK join with the sheepish/VI town on this one

The other game I remember off the top of my head had multiple millers so is harder to quantify, although no millers got lynched.

You couple that with that I think millers should just be treated as basically a VT claim (if you think they are scum lynch, if you think they are town protect), im pretty against miller policy lynching.

[LlamaFluff]

Not Voting: DrippingGoofball, alvins95, Rosso Carne, LlamaFluff, Snow_Bunny, Kise

You know whats awesome? Since I posted that:

Kise, Llama, DGB AND Alvinz all post.

Ohh wait, that's the antithesis of awesome.

Once tubby answers my question I will have a vote. Should be fairly obvious who is the front runner for my vote is however.

what you want links? i think i answered the other questions

Yeah, I said that already. So links please

[LlamaFluff]

@ LlamaFluff

You're totally missing the point. The point is that too often, I've seen scum hiding behind miller claims.

So then if a claimed miller looks scummy you lynch them, if not you treat them as town... I believe some really wierd things in this game (for instance I know a few people have seen me pull wagons off people who claimed VT), but this is not that far out there.

[LlamaFluff]

And that's why it's so easy for scum to hid behind a miller claim.

...

If someone looks like scum, you push their lynch, this is basically regardless of what they have claimed. If I think SB is scum, I will push that lynch. I do not think that SB is scum though, so I do not want him lynched.

Taking it at face value is not the same as writting them off.

I never said shoot them day 1 period no ifs ands or buts. You were leading your question like that.

Millers are increibly uninformative lynches (because you cannot read peoples votes well as the reason for voting is policy based). I suggest a miller claim be vigged.

This sure looks like a "no ifs and or buts" wording.

[LlamaFluff]

It was implied to me. Why *cant* a miller be lynched though? Just trying to pry into your thought process a bit here. If its not policy (or at least primarily not policy) I would prefer to see a miller lynched then vigged.

[LlamaFluff]

Hopefully that cleared up my stance.

So you dont want to lynch SB on the miller claim alone, but would if he looks scummy which you think he does. You dont mind him being lynched for the miller claim though. Is that it?

llama- What do you think of stark?

Fairly town. I dont at all agree with whats used against him and think a majority of the wagon is slightly scummy. Its obvious enough that council=town in the role PM, if we had to lynch DN or stark on basis of 'slips' alone, I would go with the DN slip.

@Vaya - Why is stark scum?
@milk - Did you think that Kise investigated you?
@ben - Who is scum?
@kmd - Expand on the sajin meta you brought up?

Im already not starting to like how this early game is going to split over the stark thing. Maybe the best way to fix this is to be really blunt...

@Stark voters - Did you conntect council=town when you read your role?

[LlamaFluff]

@ben - Who is scum?

Didnt i just list DN, Stark and Vaya as probably scum.

You also listed kmd, spyrex and BM... and made them sound like higher suspects then the others

[LlamaFluff]

Llama- I am against a miller claim being lynched for the claim alone.

I would agree with a vig who wanted to shoot a miller claim.

What is the difference?

How the heck are you seeing stark as town leaning? At best, without considering the slip, nor considering the incredibly bad explanations he has posted for it he could be seen as neutral. Exactly what has he contributed that has been town leaning in your view?

The move against DN was continuing something that was established, but it added something that seems natural to continue a wagon against a read. It makes sense if you stop to think that council=town. You people are calling him scum for the equivilant of him saying "It says town, no it says villager".

Also the fact that instead of trying to push the DN wagon which was well established he moved to a wagon of a player relatively low on most peoples wagons shows more of a want to scumhunt instead of appeasing the group as a whole.

When you fact in quite a few of his voters were "I agree" in reasoning, im going to call this one a wagon more likely on town then one on scum.

Digging what Plum is saying on tubby too. Im looking forward to seeing his meta of playing against millers.

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama- You just posted the difference a few posts back!!!! A lynch you get reads on who is willing to lynch and who is not.

Policy vig is same as policy lynch to me, you just get to choose if its for claim/meta/etc. If you are OK with one I dont see how you cant be OK with the other.

And llama- This is an argument about why other people are scummy in your view. It is NOT why stark is town. I still await your explanation. And while my vote started on just that tell on him, the case has grown. Did you see how stark tried to explain it off?

Ahhh... what? If I can explain why I think stark is town, how is that insufficent for your question. I think he is town, and I said why I think that.

[LlamaFluff]

vote tubby

Llama-You haven't commented much on jordan thus far, thoughts?

I cant really get a grasp on him given that his entire mindset seems to change with every other post he makes. I would say neutral to very slight scummy, but there are by far better targets then him.

Also your reasoning for finding stark townish baffle me with its complete lack of logic.

Baffling people with town reads is one of my specialties. Also with odd comments like this. 88... 77...

I see how stark makes that comment as town. I see the ensuing wagon as a really bad case of people who have not been contributing bandwagoning. I see stark not trying to push the biggest wagon in self-defense.

[LlamaFluff]

Since tubby isnt answering for some reason, has anyone been in a game that tubby was in that had a miller claim?

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, what more do you need on Sajin meta? I already explained that.

Ah, though there might of been more to it.

@jordan - Does your kill end the day?
@milk - Who is scum?

[LlamaFluff]

@milk - Who is scum?

I think Rosso Carne is lynchable to the point of possibly being a joker, so does that count as scum?

I asked you. Also im not going to really entertain the possibility of a jester.

[LlamaFluff]

@jordan - Can you wait a few days to shoot? I want think I see something and want to do a little more research before you take the shot.

@DN - What do you think of the people trying to policy lynch a miller claim? If you had the vig who would be dying?

[LlamaFluff]

@llame- why would I answer that question? I am about to be killed. ;)

Answer the question, answer the other questions too.

[LlamaFluff]

llama...when you say days, you dont mean Day, Day, you mean day, as in 24 hrs, yes?

Yeah I would prefer something like 72 hours

[LlamaFluff]

1. I am against Policy lynches, generally. Mastin is about my only exception. Although if someone claims miller, I will keep a close eye on him but not instantly lynch him.

I mean specifically what do you think of the people voting SB, not SB.

[LlamaFluff]

Very well. I've made a decision.

Oh when I say im working on something, im serious about it. I really hope you are kidding here, I asked for 72 hours, not minutes.

[LlamaFluff]

you deserve it, and it will probably happen. I want answers NAO. I'm sorry llama, but 72 hurs is just too...boring for me.

Then go download pokerstars or something... I doubt that I will be done sooner then 72 since quite a bit of what I am looking at will require participation from others.

@SB - What do you think of players voting you for a miller claim? Are they scum or town? For what reasons?
@DN - Exact same things I asked SB
@Sajin - How good of meta do you think a player acting in an obviously different manner from town to a new game is?

Its funny to me how Sajin reacted since his ensuing comments mean that he obviously has no clue what I am thinking or was getting at. There might be one person here who sees what I see, maybe a second if they dig deep, but yeah.

I think the vig is going to end up being a informational vs scum shot in my eyes though. I would prefer a scum shot, so please, let me finish probing a bit.

[LlamaFluff]

I think those voting for me are just looking for an easy lynch, after all... I am one of the easiest lynches on the site. I feel that most will be scum because its their objective to kill town.

I ment the people voting SB, you never claimed miller. You gave your opinions on a miller claim but I was talking about the ensuing policy lynchers (tubby, KK, DGB etc)

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama- Depends on circumstances and the person involved. Some people are very easy reads and some are not. People can act different then usual for a number of reasons. My point was that KMD cannot have meta information that he suggested. He has never seen me as anything but town.

So lets say you see someone do something as town. You play with them a few months later, and the same situation occurs, but they take the opposite path. What do you make of it?

Llama- You have seen me as town (Nasubi mafia). Can you conclude off of that?

I had about no time in that game, I think I only had about 30 posts in two days, most of which was trying to argue a semi-policy lynch on a player, and then defending someone who I was fairly sure was town due to my role. Usually I dont remember much unless I had someone as way town or scum. I dont even remember you being in that game all that much really. I will go look over that game again sometime when I get the time.

[LlamaFluff]

Once two specific people post I will show what im holding. I think ive got just about all the information I need here.

Still pissed about him not waiting to do that kill.

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama- Depends on circumstances and the person involved. Some people are very easy reads and some are not. People can act different then usual for a number of reasons. My point was that KMD cannot have meta information that he suggested. He has never seen me as anything but town.

So lets say you see someone do something as town. You play with them a few months later, and the same situation occurs, but they take the opposite path. What do you make of it?

For those of you who have not commented at all on Stark I would like to know why not. If I have to make a list of players who have ignored the subject I will.

I dont think that answered my question.

[LlamaFluff]

Well we have a miller claim in this one so lets use that. First game they are town and want to lynch, next game they are defending the claim. What do you do?

[LlamaFluff]

game with a miller and tubby/vollkan.

The situation was somewhat different (day 2 claim of miller), but the reaction from tubby was very different. (88... 77 was in refrence to large 88, iso [tubby] 77)

Sorry for a bit of a delay, but I just wanted to see how much I could get people to comment on this situation while still not knowing much about what I was talking about. When you also look at a majority of tubbys posts have been locking in on one thing and not paying attention to/commenting on much else, im happy with my vote. An explaination is warrented.

[LlamaFluff]

so you think sb's play has been townie thus far in this game??

Not the most town player in the game, but I think that she is town at this point in the game and really do not see me voting her in the near future. Also you are trying to say that you are basing your vote on SB being scummy, not a miller, which is at least in quite a large part false.

you think i am a better choice? I bet you thought Obama would fix the world too huh. good luck

Then SB, no doubt you are my choice. I dont have too many strong reads at this point. You, Cass, and milk are all bugging me quite a bit, and I wouldnt lose too much sleep over a lynch of any of you (possibly alvinz as a deadline-policy thing, but I think we are past a policy lynch stage). When you are acting very different then you were in a different game though in a very similar scenario, well its enough for me to put you over the top.

Also give me a good ol' fashioned monarchy.

I need to reread and see where the kmd hate is coming from. At least the other wagons I can see thier origins

[LlamaFluff]

Post 406 by Llama turned me on.

Im flattered hun, but you just arent quite my type.

Whats happening with this ben-kmd thing right now. I think its something like... an arguement about scum lurking and ben posting erraticly? Have a bit of a headache right now but I sill think im missing something.

[LlamaFluff]

@Tubby - Opinions on something apart from SB, please.
@Cass - You have said SB is newbie scum being controlled, a scum traitor and scum slipped. Which is most likely and why?

[LlamaFluff]

Im not sure what all the talk about the spamming is about. Spamming is bad, it is very bad. Take a look at the Death Note game, posting was going on at a point that was just crushing the town under its own weight. It really only took a few bigger posts from me to snap most peoples attention to my targets, and just lead the town around killing whoever I wanted them to kill. So spamming = bad. Consolidate your posts into nice, simple ones.

I need to look at this kmd thing closer, as on the surface I support a tubby or even a cass lynch before his, without too much hesitation. Lately I havent been too great about reading kmd though (even though my read in that one game WAS part right, he wasnt in the scum group that was known about at that time), I dont see my prefrence changing too quickly if at all though today since I like my reads.

[LlamaFluff]

I need to look at this kmd thing closer, as on the surface I support a tubby or even a cass lynch before his, without too much hesitation.

The kmd lynch seems fine, tho i'd prefer DGB, Vaya, Stark or Battle Mage.

So I have to back down quickly now?

One of my suspects is laughing at my pushed, one is AWOL. Neither of those things is going to make me drop it.

[LlamaFluff]

I need to look at this kmd thing closer, as on the surface I support a tubby or even a cass lynch before his, without too much hesitation.

The kmd lynch seems fine, tho i'd prefer DGB, Vaya, Stark or Battle Mage.

So I have to back down quickly now?

One of my suspects is laughing at my pushed, one is AWOL. Neither of those things is going to make me drop it.

where did i suggest you have to back down??

Sounded like "I have comprimsied, why cant you" when you look at the placement of your vote, and your suspicions.

[LlamaFluff]

See above. I think it's a simplistic analysis to say "He was putting his thoguhts down, end of story"

I just kind of got the feeling that it was more of a request for me to join the wagon then it was a 'thinking aloud' type of a post. Not a scummy post since I will try to manipulate people into voting with me no matter what alignment I am, but I tend to be more of a free-spirit and really stubborn, so it annoys me and I try to stop that line of pushing.

A KMD wagon is an informative wagon.

How so? Anything else to say...been awhile since we've heard from you.

There are several people who've made a large case on him, as well as several people who have said nothing about him negatively and voting him. Being able to pick up on the intentions of each group, given the amount of actual manpower of players required to lynch, is a good thing. People are going to ride him a while, and votes are going to grow stale

So is this an information wagon, on scum wagon, or some combination of both? Also for an added bonus, summarize the case on kmd in a couple lines.

Cass: Quite scummy. 5/7 of posts are "unvote X, vote Y", hypocritical post about Jordan's post being useless.
Q1) You admitted earlier that miller lynches are uninformative, why do you want to lynch SB now?

Not because of the miller claim, that's neutral. But because:
a) she slipped, in a way very similar to Stark, though in her case this argument is weaker
b) she keep directing power roles and uses weird logic as her reason to claim miller
c) she isn't scum-hunting, but just keeps going on about miller-related stuff. Only responding to people.

Btw, I still think Stark is scum too.

So would anyone be down for a Cass (or replacement thereof) wagon? Her reasons to be trying to wagon SB (who I still think is town) irk me quite a bit, so this may just be a knee-jerk reaction of "protect the town read" which is a favorite game of mine, but... the slip of stark is brought up and apparently the same applied to SB.

I still dont get this tell or slip or whatever at all. I read my role, I figured out I was town pretty easily. This entire part of the case on SB boils down to comprehension of your alignment from your role. I have argued something similar in a past game where flavor is very hard to base things on, since some people interpret it differently then others do, and that can lead to exploitable contridictions (see SSK lynch in Death Note for perfect example of flavor screwing up the town. Moving on; directing power roles (which I will somewhat concede as slightly scummy, even though if its a standard move from past experience its not the greatest, and I doubt it would be listened to), there also is 'claiming oddly', which is a matter of opinion I guess, but I dont see how the claim was done odd. Last one again is a bit of a tell, but that can be applied to a whole lot of people again, whom really have not been mentioned by cass, who waived the 'scum slip' flag on the stark/SB shenannigins and thats been about it.

I looked at the kmd thing a bit, even though this post took up a majority of the time I had for non-drunk posting today, and still like other lynches better. I can offhand name about half a dozen worse lynches, but still a handfull I would prefer.

[LlamaFluff]

So is this an information wagon, on scum wagon, or some combination of both?

Your first question makes no sense to me, but I'll assume you are either asking if its a informative wagon on someone who is scum, or is a wagon that is driven by scum.
I wouldn't rule out either. Not sure the point of your question though or the motivation behind such.

I cant tell if you are voting him more for your reads or more for information from his flip. Thats what im trying to figure out.

If this is going to turn into alvinz or kmd, im going to be voting alvinz, but there are better alternatives to either of them at this point who I feel are getting ignored for the most part. On alvinz, mod says he pickedup his prod. Ive played with him before and getting a lot of content from him is a pipe dream, regardless of his alignment.

[LlamaFluff]

Tree stumped?

Going to skim over a few things regarding flips, but I doubt a third party lynch will do much to sway me.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Tubby

Nothing has changed there. The unexplained shift in stance on millers, whos claim is increasingly validated by KK flip, the shrug it off when asked for an explaination, the continual tunnel on SB for the majority of the day...

I will explain this more in depth later, but its a great starting line

[LlamaFluff]

Hey, im pretty sick right now and looking at a computer is really doing a number on my eyes. I am about three/four pages behind right now, so I dont need to be replaced, but just giving you a heads-up for me not being able to post much/at all for a few more days.

[LlamaFluff]

Im actually feeling better for the first time since early last weekend, fever back under 100 and whatnot, so im going to try and make a small run on catching up in this game. I curse you all for putting up 20 pages in that time

[LlamaFluff]

I want to make sure I understand what is going on here before I try and spend too much time picking apart something while missing the entire point, since it really is an annoyance I like to avoid.

Ok, the first big debate that happens seems to follow the following arguments;
-Spy targeted SB last night, he appears as ‘dead’ but can still talk and apparently vote today.
-When SB gets pressed on ‘did anything happen’, she shuns off the question, which I thought was totally a legitimate move. While I don’t think spy is scum, as any brand of town killing role would have had to be stupid to target him, this response from SB looks very natural to me.
-Spy claims he is basically a JOAT with uncontrollable actions (ok that totally should have been my role, ive had that and something almost identical). Now he made an action which he thinks should of killed SB, but he ‘died’ instead.

Ah ok, I forgot about the whole SB asking cops to target her D1 there. The call out from Spy makes a little more sense now. And why the hell are people wagoning Spy? Ive had this exact role once before (had six unknown actions; JK, vig, RB, doc, hide and make DV), its hard to explain how it works, but it was a town role there, and given what is happening here, im going to put my money on it still being a town role. Starting to wish my power was ‘vig entire wagon’

This game hurts the mind and soul, its something like Spy thinks SB killed him, so half the town votes spy for claiming a random JOAT? What the hell really? I do not understand that logic, I can understand SC voting for something role based, but everyone else is dense, sheeping, scum or some combination of all three. Back to the depressingnessess…

Ohhhhhhhhhhh! Ok. Spy isn’t a JOAT but an inventor that doesn’t know what he gives out. Amazingly enough I have had that exact role too, in a game of spy’s.

Ok, so I think I have down about what happened yesterday regarding Spy-SB
First – Spy targeted SB with a black potion. SB did not target anyone.
Second – SB gained an ability. Spy got stumped or something.
Third – Spy thinks SB killed him somehow, SB claims she didn’t do anything.

HOW DO PEOPLE COME TO THE VOTE SPY CONCLUSION FROM THIS!?

Im actually a little surprised so many people seem to be in the vote SB town as well. I guess I can see it if you think of SB as a PGO type role for the scum, but I don’t see it as highly likely either, well maybe the vote for spy too. It can be inferred that Spy likely gave an ability, but until then, I sure wouldn’t claim to of gotten something if a stumped player asked.

Ok now there is a fourth? I thought there was only three parts to this thing.

@SC – Do you just duplicate the role or do you steal the role?

Oh ok, there is no fourth due to what the ability is. I still want to vig the spy wagon however.

So hey, why is there no milk wagon forming right now? We have someone basically pushing the spy wagon on things that I cant really figure out, and I just read those pages (I think its for the claim, -est ending and possibly thinking he doesn’t give stuff out?). If SB has a one shot ability, they have to use it on a believable target regardless of alignment, not doing so, or possibly even having proof of done so, just results in a lynch. Best case scenario we get a few alignments out of it, worst case, we lynch milk-scum before SB-scum.

Tired
Break time
10 pages to go
Damn you all for being confusing
Someone explain the Spy wagon if it hasn’t been already

[LlamaFluff]

Llama - I steal the role for the NEXT night. So N1 I touch blah, at the start of D2 I get told what the role I stole was (if any) and N2 I get to either use the role or touch someone else. They are blocked from using their ability N2.

So does the player you touch lose thier ability or are you just getting a copy of it?

[LlamaFluff]

They are blocked from using their ability N2.

I don't know what the difference is between the options you're giving me. They can't use it for the one night I have it, does that answer it?

AFAIK there's nothing about steal vs copy and I don't know how you'd tell the difference.

I had a plan but it doesnt look like its going to work if thats what happens. Kinda confused why you would still target a townish player with a stealer role.

[LlamaFluff]

Ok so SB has given her one shot ability, but I still don’t get why she wants spy dead. Yet to see anything there from anyone giving out anything that should warrant a FoS. With a cop shot though, I would prefer not to lynch SB (tubby/milk wagons anyone?).

I guess there is a little reasoning here on the spy-nontown wagon here, at least its not for spy-scum, but I still don’t really like how it is completely flavor based. Basically the simplest conclusion to spy is that he is town and an inventor who doesn’t know what he is giving out. Some flavor in this game may not make much sense, some powers may be kinda weird, so trying to lynch of flavor, especially… especially when we only have a few roles flipped, is a no.

Yay agreement with a milk wagon! Was starting to think that I was insane for thinking he was scum since no one else seemed to show interest there.

Ben continues to be stupid over the whole spy flavor thing. I had a role ALMOST IDENTICAL to what he is claiming. I could target one player a night and something would happen to them. So its not an “odd” thing, it’s a role. Your second odd is arguing flavor, unless potions are killing, turning into newts, or something like that, or SB woke up looking like Columbo, it likely isn’t a visable effect.

~~~

I see its L-2 so im going to skim read the rest of the game just to be able to discuss whats going on without looking stupid

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

You guys need to stop playing the "take the game in a new direction whenever llama has stuff to do" game.

So...

Tubby claims to of hid behind milk. To believe this we need to believe that milk is really town, which goes against a read but will play along with for now due to...

Plum claims that Tubby is what he claims, so tubby and milk are town. But then...

Ben claims that Plum cant know anything because he roleblocked her.

So player A claims that player B is town, player C supports player A while player D says player C cant know anything about player A.

this game....

[LlamaFluff]

So if we just concentrate on part A of the equation, we have the most information then correct?

Tubby claims fact Z
Plum supports fact Z based on action @ (out of keys so sue me)
SP denies Plum support of Z based on action #

Fact Z is in question which is "Is tubby and by association milk town".

Im going to ask something that should of been asked.

@SP - Do you block only one type of action (ie active) or do you block passive and special. Ask that. Come back. We had this problem already

[LlamaFluff]

And bastard... my fix it gets ninja killed

[LlamaFluff]

Do I think he is the correct lynch today? Nope.

Name 2 good reasons why not. 1 even.

name 1 good reason why. make it 2.

Remember my thing about A arguing B, C supports A? Figuring out A gives answeres to B and C, if D still said C was lying it would obviously be the right move to lynch tubby since it nets confirmed scum either way. Not sure if it confirms anyone outside of possibly B at this point, but if it confirms/condems more then one player, it might not be bad to still look in to.

This game is wreaking havoc with my mind though given that about a quarter of the game has claimed and there arent any obvious solutions/moves available. Apparently I need to go back and read Ben which is going to suck a big one.

[LlamaFluff]

A is tubby-hider
B milk-copcurer
C Plum-masonish
D SP-RB
(you forgot E who is nameless, C-plums info)

Well yeah thats why I said it used to work. When C and D led to different solutions to A, lynching A gave information on three players directly. Im just thinking that a tubby lynch still isnt the worse possible thing in the world given how many people are strongly attached to him. I still need to reevaluate what is going on a bit, I feel with so many visable pieces there needs to be something obvious here we are missing.

[LlamaFluff]

Dear SC,

Please stop treestumping players I think are town

Love,

Llama

---

I will try and get a case up in the next couple days. Took me a majority of the night phase but im all caught up now.

[LlamaFluff]

Dear SC,

Please stop treestumping players I think are town

Love,

Llama

But SpyreX wasn't treestumped yesterday. His vote was on the votecount and the lynch occured at 12 like what was written.

He is treestumping people still.

What seems to be happening is SC targets a player and they "die". I would expect that they no longer count for their factions numbers, but can talk, and it looks like they can vote. Treestump variant.

Dear SC,

Im not going to argue about the sexyness of VP, but you should start targeting people you think are scummy.

[LlamaFluff]

Ok, im no longer sick, all caught up, time to take this game in a brand new direction

Vote Papa Zito

Most of what happened with him D1 actually was speculation about roles. We had the debates of "do town roles end in -xr", the "where was I when the giver died" and who can forget "what did I do when the giver died". All so useful.

When he does decide to make some attempts at scumhunting, we get things like this;

Vaya, why did you unvote in your most recent post?

I was unvoting stark because I'm probably going to switch my vote to kmd.

In fact,

Vote: Kmd

, especially because I agree with Spy's suggestion.

Oh wow this is terribad.

unvote: alvins95
vote: Vaya

I can see that I'm today's lynch. Fine by me considering there are probably roles much more powerful than mine.

Much more powerful than your JK/Vig combo? lolwut?

Okay then.

unvote: Vaya
vote: Kmd4390

This game is a target-rich environment.

The "target rich" quote is quite ironic, given how little PZ really has done in the department of trying to find targets. Even his speculation which has taken up a majority of the day so far is not used in his votes.

So we have speculation, which never is even used to push a case (speculation - check). We also have lots of odd votes (vote hopping - check).

There was an odd third part though, involving KK. On his flip, it feels a whole lot like a scum interaction to me.

Do you think KK is scum PZ?

I'm leaning that direction. Too bandwagon-hoppy, too Snow_Bunny-tunnelly for my taste.

Who put the brakes on this game?

He mentions it early, and just moves on. KK is not mentioned again, I cant shake a feeling of a weak distancing attempt here.

----

D2 stuff later, but its worth noting an early attack of PZ on SB. Again with that quote of him regarding KK it strikes me as odd.

[LlamaFluff]

Dear SC,

Please stop treestumping players I think are town

Love,

Llama

Ironically, it would seem that his ability only would benefit from those that are town.

No.....

He is effectively removing the player from the game. I would put good money on what is happening here is the followin

-SC steal the power of a player
-The player becomes a ghost
-As a ghost, they can talk and vote
-Given that they are not "alive" they dont count for a win condition

I would expect this would mean that in a situation with 2 scum, 2 town and 2 "dead" town, scum would win the game. I would prefer him to target players I think are scum with this power.

[LlamaFluff]

I"m not convinced by your theory about the treestump, but it's possible. Remember also that there is NOTHING in my PM about this 'zombifying' people, and there was NO reason to think it was me who did that to Spyrex D2. This is as new to me as it is to anyone.

Also, treestumps generally lose their vote?

The fact that they are "dying" must be changing something. Its the most logical conclusion that they no longer can do anything for their numbers because they are dead, but are still respected members so they can be lynched/vote/talk. Odd yes, but what other reason can we come up with for the "deaths" of players that get touched.

[LlamaFluff]

No.....

Yes......

No.....

I am assuming that "dying" hurts the player in some way. Otherwise why would they die?

Either way, if he steals an active ability, the player loses the ability, so we have the same ammount of abilities in existance regardless.

[LlamaFluff]

No.....

Yes......

No.....

I am assuming that "dying" hurts the player in some way. Otherwise why would they die?

Either way, if he steals an active ability, the player loses the ability, so we have the same ammount of abilities in existance regardless.

Yes.....

Show me an instance where scum have Goma powers.

Ah... I think I kind of get where you are going... but still no

I would still think "dying" is a bad thing, and if you are treating him as a cop, he still acts as a gunsmithish role. I would guess the cons outweigh the pros. A cop who kills innocents should be looking for guilties

[LlamaFluff]

I dont really understand motivation behind a JK claim. milk could of been targeted for a NK during N1, there could be roles like SP stopping something, im betting theres a doctor.

So we also really arent going to lynch milk today for the above reason. There is no way to know that is what caused a lack of kill, or why the kill never happened if it is the reason.

I dont get the ensuing tubby/dram wagons either. As much as I thought tubby was scum, he has a reasonable, and supported claim. Dram just comes off as overeager, but town as well. We should get back to lynching PZ which I will try and finish stating why soon.

[LlamaFluff]

And here I was thinking likely town...

Seriously though. We have tubby who claimed hider and hid with milk and didnt die, so we dont lynch milk before tubby. Dramn is trying to lynch milk which I competely disagree with given the previous statement, but I dont think he is scum for doing that, since there is no way its actually going to result in a lynch, and if he is scum he just outed himself needlessly and now needs to use his role in a protown manner.

I dont like the milk lynch, dram lynch, or tubby lynch. None of them make any sense as scum given how the day has gone down. The lynch should be a third party, not one of the hot topics.

For ultimate clarification though

@tubby - Do you die if you hide behind any anti-town player, or only mafia?

[LlamaFluff]

PZ
-gap-
BM (both)

And way down the line at two: that guy from sesame street

If you are talking about me you obviously had a very depressing childhood.

---

I still do not in the least bit get the milk/tubby hate. You have plum who cleared tubby who cleared milk. HOW DO YOU LYNCH A CLEARED PLAYER IF YOU DONT KNOW THE ALIGNMENT OF THE CLEARER! That like saying, "well I think player A is scum, even though he was cleared by the cop. I bet he is a GF, lets lynch him!" when there are obviously other scum left.

Dram is actually really town looking after that jump. He is town, he thought he caught scum so he jumped at the chance to get them lynched. He *did* forget the cleared chain, but it still looks like a really town move to me trying to get someone lynched with role information.

[LlamaFluff]

If you are talking about me you obviously had a very depressing childhood.

You obviously had a very paranoid and narcissistic childhood. I think I've got room to pencil you in to number five though.

True, maybe you can add in melancholy as well. I cant think of who is seseme street off the top of my head though.

[LlamaFluff]

Pssst....(elmo)

Was thinking avatars... I usually dont pay any attention to username/gender icon etc. Ive had people call me female, the emo guy and a few other odd things from mine, so I figured this was just the next level.

[LlamaFluff]

In the meantime, can someone put up a decent case for a milk/tubby/dram lynch so I can trash it and move on to getting scum lynched?

[LlamaFluff]

You have Tubby who claimed to hide behind milk. Who, from what I'm gathering from dramonic (unless I'm reading this cluster WRONG again) would have been untargettable that night.

Wait really? Thats not a JK, that like... a commuter maker. I read JK and just think block+doc

Further, you have the absence of a kill on the night dramonic tickled little milky which is a circumstantial case on Mlik being scum.

Yeah im not going to vote milk on something like that. There is a claimed RBer, claimed JK, its a good bet that there is a doctor, and I would not be shocked with an driver type role existing. I dont like the timing of the claim, but I would be willing to put a wagon on dram being town here.

So, its not a chain of clears. Its a series of night action bidness.

Ahh.. still, we dont lynch milk today period. I will not be voting dram today, I dont really feel like voting tubby today. When I am not at work I will get back to why I like a PZ lynch, and maybe go pick apart some of a case on dram.

[LlamaFluff]

So I got lazy again. Still am convinced that PZ is scum at this point however, so I will try and get more on that up sometime soon even though it looks like that wont be happening given the current stuff going on.

Not going to move my vote either way untill I say what I want to say.

[LlamaFluff]

BTW Llama, you may be insane. Just a thought.

Insane enough to have a throwdown? You bet

@Spy - Do/did you have equal potions as players? It just fits a role I tried to make a long time ago if there are and if it is, there may be an ideal way to play it.

[LlamaFluff]

@LF: Nope. 14 total.

Damn... I was wondering if it was my weak motivator role that if action matched with player it gave a very strong boost as opposed to weak one. And I could see white powder possibly working with my flavor.

NO ONE HAMMER untill I get my next post up. Seriously

[LlamaFluff]

Alrighty then!

D2 concerning stuff from PZ

In regards to the Spy-SB thing from early on; he lays the groundwork for a vote on Spy (due to -xr) flavor, and still shows plenty of willingness to vote for SB without a good response as to why Spy 'died'

At the point the extent of his scumhunting D2 is voting scope without any explaination as to why, even when prompted. And asking tubby to respond to me voting him. Not a whole lot in that department, but enough to show suspicion of each, and a slight nudge in the direction of the hot topics.

Now everything goes to hell. I still fail to completely comprehend the whole SB debacle going on where she got wagoned, unwagoned, wagoned or whatever the hell happened there. I thought it was due to running a massive fever at the time, but apparently I still dont get it now. ANYWAYS.

PZ comes to the immediate conclusion that Spy is third party and SB is scum. There is one thing that does not fit this though, and that is that PZ really doesnt seem to want a spy lynch at all. He sets up flavor reasons to kill him, then its just dropped. None of the flavor has been disproven by a flip. So I dont get this drop.

This is his Spy case

1. The townies we've flipped, and the townies who've claimed, all have inherent powers, which matches the theme of the game - being born near the Dark Goma grants powers. SpyreX looks like he was born outside the city walls and has to manufacture powers through these potions.
2. SpyreX's role PM lacks the Type line that the sample townie PM and my PM have.
3. SpyreX's role PM lacks any mention of the Giver.
4. SpyreX has claimed that his role doesn't care about the Giver/War at all.
5. SpyreX's claimed role name lacks the -xr ending. Again, I'm giving credence to this theory until I see something that contradicts it.

These things add up to 3rd party (prolly survivor) to me.

From this point on though, he just seems to think Spy is town. I dont debate a spy-town read here, but I dont see any reason for the slip outside of it becoming apparent that spy was not going to be lynched. Point 5 was rescended, but that was it

So eventually we get to the point where SB is not going to be lynched. What is the logical move for town-PZ at this point? You have someone you think is scum, you have someone you think is 3rd party, you go back on the scum read, so you wagon an entirely different person! Yayyyyyyyy!

wait... thats not right

The day ends for PZ with wagoning of Ben, trying to get people to wagon Ben OVER kscope who he was pushing at the start of the day, to still wanting a SB lynch, to dabbling in a chamber lynch, to going back to the kscope wagon.

I have read that a few times over and it still just is so sparratic I dont know whats happening there. He literally goes all over the place with no strong (if any at all) reasoning behind a single vote, and ends up right where he started at kscope.

Lotta talking, lotta vote moving, but not a lot accomplished. He did find reasons to vote for Spy, SB, Ben, chamber, tubby and kscope though. None of which he really ever dropped (at least to the point where they couldnt be dusted off in subsequent days), or made a whole lot of a case on.

[LlamaFluff]

I still completely read him as town. The out of the blue claim of a JK just reeks of a newbie town player thinking they caught scum. I would be willing to lynch almost anyone over him.

[LlamaFluff]

I would prefer a massclaim tomorrow given two clear trains of thought going

unvote
vote sajin

on the merit that he is not dramonic

Also I am having some computer issues right now, not sure how long it will take me to sort them out, but there is a good chance I wont be able to make any decent sized posts untill they get cleared up due to only consistant access being at work.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
vote dramonic

would of been nice of you to claim this the first time sajin was at L-1 to save a little time at least

[LlamaFluff]

I got to L-1 with a cop having a guilty on someone else ><

Your wagon(s) will be extremely useful later on.

Reiterate: Llama's insane.

Actually I may not be the worst target, although I doubt it would do anything to me.

[LlamaFluff]

@SP - Did you block me last night? Something is not adding up with what is going on and this I hope is the explaination. Of course I think milk targeting me is useless after SC is dead now...

Are we name/massclaiming or not at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

I dont expect access this weekend. Also with the cult talk and tubbys rolename im amusingly reminded of Donnie Darko

[LlamaFluff]

Im The Baker. I was the Givers personal cook and have the ability to make cupcakes so good, that they can actually heal wounds. I think wounds is important. Its also why I was so talkative about doctors. Also its why I was talking about the white powder and the wierd motivatior (powder = flour/sugar, extra ingredients = double action)

N1 I targeted VPB
N2 I targeted VPB (so I obviously dont protect against "death", mod confirmed nothing was missed with night actions)
N3 I targeted Plum, which seems like a stupid move now.

What I thought was that scum=strangle, SK=slit, SC=dead given the opening game scene. When I couldnt protect against 'dead', I figured that I could only protect against 'slit'. Given that slit=SK, SK wouldnt want to kill the cop, SK would want to kill someone else who looked town, so I went with Plum.

[LlamaFluff]

Why dont we just lynch Frank now and then his minion tomorrow?

[LlamaFluff]

Door number one Monty!

vote frank

Vote tubby

[LlamaFluff]

Should I target claim since there was no slit kill or do you want SP to target claim first?

I dont think anyone else could of blocked the kill given the massclaim.

[LlamaFluff]

I protected myself last night.

Wait what? You can do that?

[LlamaFluff]

I'll be damned... assume nothing I guess

[LlamaFluff]

I can target dead folks... hah wonder if I can bring people back to life

[LlamaFluff]

I was thinking benmage, but sure, I'll target Elmo pending anything else coming to light.

stark would be a good call too if you havent yet

[LlamaFluff]

So many new theories...

So SP action claims then me yes?

[LlamaFluff]

I targeted SP last night. If you make the assumption each claim is truthful and is town, its the biggest threat to scum.

[LlamaFluff]

It's not a function of simply the doublevoter / vote-halver mechanic that makes me think you are scum. It is, much moreso, the fact you've been absolutely

coasting

through this game.

More or less this. While I do have a hard time putting together a big list of what everyones opinions on this game are (spent a bit too much of yesterday arguing dram-town and let some other stuff go by), you I have less then almost anyone else.

Roles do mean basically nothing in this game though, role

information

means quite a bit, but the roles mean nothing as it scum have claimed hider and JK, and KK seems to be the source of a note. None of those roles are distinctly anti-town by any means if they were truthful. If one of you/ben were scum, on role alone, I would say ben (as DV forces win in lylo, ben doesnt), but im not lynching for scum/SK on a role claim.

Also stark needs to give us complete results (from ALL nights). I would love to know if cult is for real or the mod just yanking our chain. His results will likely help that a bit

[LlamaFluff]

Can you just still give all results so they are nice and handy?

[LlamaFluff]

Should I claim my actual target or is not milk enough?

[LlamaFluff]

Should I claim my actual target or is not milk enough?

That works for me (hint Sociopath better not be dead any time soon)

Yeah, there is one other person I would like to keep alive too discovered through the "dont assume" thing I went through.

[LlamaFluff]

You forgot to say who you targeted there hun. Thats kind of important.

Can you just give a flat list of who you have targeted so far each night for convinence sake?

[LlamaFluff]

I prefer a Kise to Elmo lynch (to the extent where I would be fine hammering), I will explain when I dont have a meeting in ten minutes that I still need to get some notes together for.

[LlamaFluff]

I only have about 30 minutes right now, so I hope this is at least complete enough to encourage others to take a nice and close look at Kise to compare him to Elmo.

Wayyyy back during the whole day bomb thing, we had a few odd things from Kise

Hmm... If we get useful softclaims from all of Jordan's potential targets, I suggest bombing Snow Bunny (no hard feelings).

Him trying to pull out multiple claims D1 fairly subtely. Later he confirms that this was a serious suggestion, as DN had softclaimed saying he had a night, not day action.

Kise really isnt being productive either. He called Jordan scum early without a case, and called Sajin scum for not playing to meta. Later he does make a LoS though, and we have...

Scum on Sajin (meta), VPB (agressive), KK (agressive), milk (active lurking?), cicero (only talking about miller thing).

This just is wierd. Its this first mention of almost all these people as suspects. VPB/KK stand out the most as "agression" is the entirety of the stance. It almost seems like scum just sticking scum in their list.

Starting D2, he now is sure that SB and milk are scum. Too bad we dont get a case on either of them. Seems that SB is for not saying what the one shot, milk im assuming for not talking about the miller thing much. He isnt even taking a strong stance for either wagon, as there is a little bit of a push for each. He ends up throwing both those down for kscope though.

Later he defends dram on meta... out of time. More at an undisclosed time

Vote Kise

[LlamaFluff]

So is your defense "This came out of nowhere"?

Also inspiration is me liking your lynch more then the one being presented

[LlamaFluff]

Wayyyy back during the whole day bomb thing, we had a few odd things from Kise

Hmm... If we get useful softclaims from all of Jordan's potential targets, I suggest bombing Snow Bunny (no hard feelings).

Him trying to pull out multiple claims D1 fairly subtely. Later he confirms that this was a serious suggestion, as DN had softclaimed saying he had a night, not day action.

Can't blame me for trying to prevent Jordan from hastily killing people, as he ended up doing anyway. How else would people convince a trigger happy mofo not to kill them other than softclaims? He felt the need to make a decision quick (I believe he was close to being lynched) and he didn't have all the time in the world to simply study comments to assess who he thought most likely to be scum. I'm pretty sure I explained this.

How is asking for softclaims preventing him from killing people? This is a game where everyone has some sort of a role, so its not really going to accomplish anything. I really can not even see an ultimate best-case scenario that stems from trying to do some sort of semi-mass soft-claim fest.

Trying to talk him down from making a quick kill and trying to get an idea of what roles are expendable are different.

Kise really isnt being productive either. He called Jordan scum early without a case

Scum, or scummy? Better yet, I don't see either, but here is the case:

Even though I need to see new developments, I'll give you my case on Jordan. The man speculated on my role & reason for wanting to be killed. Most of his earlier posts show how bloodthirsty he is to get me lynched, despite my joke about being Jester.

Its a case? Ok...

If you are encouraging softclaiming, I dont really get how him speculating on roles is a bad thing. Isnt that what you want from that in the end? Him to figure out what roles are so he makes the 'right' kill? I also dont really understand the last part. Sounds like "Wanted me lynched over a joke?" (which at this point I dont get why you didnt just get bombed there, would of been a better one it seems)

Later he does make a LoS though, and we have...

Scum on Sajin (meta), VPB (agressive), KK (agressive), milk (active lurking?), cicero (only talking about miller thing).

This just is wierd. Its this first mention of almost all these people as suspects.

You forgot to tell the nice folks that this was in my catch-up post. Careful how you make me look, Scar.

You still cant makes baseless accusations on weak reasoning. Why is agressive scummy? Why did you stop pushing Sajin? Also im the good guy, even if it takes a while to realize it.

Starting D2, he now is sure that SB and milk are scum. Too bad we dont get a case on either of them.

Click those iso'd post so you can see what it is I'm commenting on.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 33#1908033

It wasn't confirmed that Spyrex gave SB the 1-shot cop potion, so I laughed about it and said ^ what you'll find in the above post. Then here comes milk with these scenarios that make SB more townie if she lets the others direct who she targets for the investigation. That whole post, milk is coming up with ways for SB to prove herself, and I didn't like it. In my mind, if you let someone direct their ability, what's to stop "outside forces" from roleblocking SB or having her target killed conveniently? Like I said, Llama, if you click these iso post, you'll be placed into the positions that evoked my comments. You can't judge me by iso because that's only viewing the output.

So milk was scum for trying to figure out a plan to clear someone as town? There could be things that interfere, but trying to clear a player is a *good* thing in my books. You never really pushed for either of their lynches though more then this. SB was even close to a lynch and you really didnt seem convinced enough to go along with that wagon.

Also are you trying to use your role to defend yourself? I already said im confident enough in my read here to hammer you, you going to flip scum/SK, the question is will I have my vote docked the next day.

[LlamaFluff]

How is asking for softclaims preventing him from killing people?

I just told you why/how. So I ask again, how else do you stop a trigger happy mofo from killing you without softclaiming the usefulness of your role?

Talk him down. You dont try and difuse a hostage situation by telling him to kill the guy standing next to you because he works in fast food and is useless

If you are encouraging softclaiming, I dont really get how him speculating on roles is a bad thing.

FFS, click the post you just iso'd. It's easy not to understand what happened months ago, so just read how everything went down. I'm really not appreciating this rigidness from you. In a nutshell, my first posts ITT were jokes about being a jester that wins the game if nightkilled, plus I had the ability to kill at night. Twas a joke, but Jordan (and milk) believed it while pretty much everyone else knew I was only kidding around. Also in my first post, I said that if they wanted to prevent me from winning, they should lynch me right away. Jordan and milk continued searching for reasons why I should be lynched, which was shamelessly not limited to speculating on whether I could be lying and was really a townie that needed to die in order to enable something beneficial to the town. It was crazy. So, yeah. You might be best served if you just read the first few pages after I did the jester claim.

This has nothing to do with how a mass softclaim would of done more good then harm. Also still, you want people to lay down softclaims so jordan can hug bomb the one that benfits the town most. When you make a joke that you are a role that benifits the town to die, what do you really expect?

You still cant makes baseless accusations on weak reasoning. Why is agressive scummy? Why did you stop pushing Sajin? Also im the good guy, even if it takes a while to realize it.

I didn't vote for each of them. You should know it means to finger people with your suspicion. That's all it was. And, about Sajin, I'm not going to hound the guy every chance I get. I've had people ask me flat out if I was a Lyncher in previous games where I pester someone to death. So, no thanks. And I didn't stop pushing anything. Not long ago I had words for Sajin. By the way, Kublai should be enough proof of why aggression is found scummy. He was manufacturing a rage-like presence and I caught on -- called me a racist :lol: . It's just little extra BS, like trying to convey frustration, that makes suspect people's aggressiveness.

So... "I pushed Sajin when he wagon became popular" and "KK was scum so agression is scummy" are you basic justifications for throwing down one word cases on half a dozen people and never really doing anything to persue any of them?

Also agression is not scummy. If you lynch all agressive players you are going to lynch a vast majority of good town players.

So milk was scum for trying to figure out a plan to clear someone as town?

Milk was scum for giving her scum buddy tips. It's a no brainer that milk isn't scum at this point, though.

Yeah see... trying to clear people is a town tell.

You never really pushed for either of their lynches though more then this. SB was even close to a lynch and you really didnt seem convinced enough to go along with that wagon.

I'm not a bandwagoner, that's why. If I didn't care for the case on him, then I don't care for it. Seems to me like you're saying just because SB was close to being lynched, I should have hopped on it for the hell of it(?).

Day two SB got a big wagon on them. You said that he was scum D2, so why no vote on him ever?

Also are you trying to use your role to defend yourself? I already said im confident enough in my read here to hammer you, you going to flip scum/SK, the question is will I have my vote docked the next day.

No. I'm trying to hint that it's in anti-town's best interest to have me lynched instead of kill me off so that they can't get caught easily. I said too much about my role, but I could care less if it meant anti-town would be scared to kill me. Elmo looks more SK than scum at this point, do you agree?

Ok so your defense is "anti-town would never want to NK me so dont lynch me?". Also nice little deflection on Elmo there. I think you are more scum, I think you are the right lynch, not Elmo.

@Stark - Its Kise vs Elmo as far as im concerned.

[LlamaFluff]

So is your defense "This came out of nowhere"?

So milk was scum for trying to figure out a plan to clear someone as town?

So... "I pushed Sajin when he wagon became popular" and "KK was scum so agression is scummy" are you basic justifications for throwing down one word cases on half a dozen people and never really doing anything to persue any of them?

Ok so your defense is "anti-town would never want to NK me so dont lynch me?".

You know... if it weren't for the fact that these are yes/no questions, it'd be strawman.

More of rhetorical "damn that was a scummy answer" statements.

Starting D2, he now is sure that SB and milk are scum.

He isnt even taking a strong stance for either wagon, as there is a little bit of a push for each. He ends up throwing both those down for kscope though.

What's the insinuation here? I get the feeling you're connecting me to them, so be clear.

You are not exhibiting any real conviction to your suspects. You call two people scum, vote neither of them despite a wagon on one appearing, and then end up doing a "lolz wagon" vote on town to end the day. Not "connecting" you as a partner to either. I am connection you as scum trying to just push along wagons of town (at worse other anti-town in SB) without being an active part of them or investing much.

Talk him down. You dont try and difuse a hostage situation by telling him to kill the guy standing next to you because he works in fast food and is useless

Wasn't gonna happen. He was ready to kamikaze right then and there because people had been piling votes on him.

Votes were coming off. You still havent explained how having a mass soft-claim outwieghs him just making an educated kill. What roles were "expendable" to you?

This has nothing to do with how a mass softclaim would of done more good then harm.

Yes it does. You are not putting yourself in the same experience from months ago. You are simply reading my isolated posts. You can't view the entire street if you're only looking westward. It's confusing to simply read my iso post because I may not have quoted the person I was responding to, so you have no idea what they said that prompted me to respond as I did. It has everything to do with the massclaim.

What possible benifit did a massclaim serve? You either are going to out half a dozen roles or have one scummy player get killed without massclaim. I would rather have someone die. Isnt that how you play a night vig at least?

Also still, you want people to lay down softclaims so jordan can hug bomb the one that benfits the town most.

Least would be a better choice of words, here. Or unbelievable.

Thats a poor plan

Also agression is not scummy. If you lynch all agressive players you are going to lynch a vast majority of good town players.

I didn't want to lynch them. I pointed my finger at them. And why would I want to lynch those people when I wasn't fully caught up? I was doing a PbP read through but I had not finished, so I posted my thoughts on the game from what I did manage to read. Again, the aggression shown from KK and VP caught my attention so I made note of it.[/quote]

Why is aggression scummy even?

Day two SB got a big wagon on them. You said that he was scum D2, so why no vote on him ever?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 31#1908631
My next post was this: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 01#1914401

I'm really not favoring how you're trying to make me look here. I didn't put SB closer to a lynch until she spilled the beans to determine whether it was still worth voting her. My time became an issue so I had to bounce. Simple as.

So then as soon as the one shot was explained you thought SB was town? Im just not sure whats going on here with your reads on the two of them. SB was scum for not saying what she had at first, and then when she claimed milk was scum for trying to direct the shot, so you voted for kscope instead of either to get a lynch?

I can sort of see you leaving SB alone (although why not voting before the claim still confuses me) but your logic says milk remained scum in that scenario. Either way you refused to try and get a suspect lynched.

Also nice little deflection on Elmo there. I think you are more scum, I think you are the right lynch, not Elmo.

So you'd never vote for elmo? (Yes, I purposely did one of your quasistrawmans there)

There is one scenario where I would not be voting you today, and it doesnt appear to be happening.

Point I'm getting at is that scum always try to find ways to get rid of those that jeopardize them when NK'd. Same thing happened to me when I claimed PGO in another game; scum felt disgruntled about it, later tacked votes on when the opportunity came to lynch me (

hush, Sajin

). By default, my eye is raised when a PGO-like role is desired for lynch instead. A suspicion of me suddenly springs up from out of nowhere from someone who has not mentioned me since September.

By the same merit though its like claiming BP. No one (town or scum) will kill you, and anyone who wants to lynch you for being scummy you can just call OMGUS on.

This case you have on me, as far as me "being unproductive" and having "questionable suspicions" and "failing to vote at opportune times," can this not be applied to other players currently living? I can think of 3 off the top of my head, but I'll let you answer. It's not deflection, BTW. It's compare and contrast.

Thats an oversimplification of my case on you

[LlamaFluff]

More later on Kise....

but arent there supposed to be other people playing this game?

[LlamaFluff]

If there IS a cult, I would put huge money on Kise and/or Elmo being a part of it. However I dont think there is a cult anymore.

Starks role reminds me of a "cult-unrecruiter" role that was a red herring ive seen before.

[LlamaFluff]

No lets not do this untill SP 100% confirms his target instead of just leaving it as a "most likely" thing

[LlamaFluff]

I don't have any strong scum reads atm. I've been neglecting giving this game a reread. What I can say however is that this wagon is far too easy given the person its on, and the others in the game. I'm worried the people voting him are voting in a group for a reason. IE a cult. But a cult also seems so ridiculous at this point.

If you are worried about cult for said reasons, Kise is the better lynch as there is a collective "tomorrow" feeling regarding him.

Im going to play the stubborn card and see how much of a dueling wagons aspect I can get going. Even though I doubt there are two in the same anti-town faction alive (save cult) its a move with no downside, and if there is cult it has upsides.

[LlamaFluff]

Really VPB?

Vote Kise

[LlamaFluff]

Chamber - What did you do to the weather last night? What was the description of your doctor ability?

If it matters I targeted SP last night.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm extremely against an SB lynch. Out of the Scum list Spyre posted she would be my last choice. Im going out for dinner now though so I can't research who my first choice would be quite yet.

So what did you do to the weather again?

[LlamaFluff]

I'm extremely against an SB lynch. Out of the Scum list Spyre posted she would be my last choice. Im going out for dinner now though so I can't research who my first choice would be quite yet.

So what did you do to the weather again?

made it cloudy.

Just run through night by night all your weather actions for me.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, who else can you apply this case to? You never did answer that.

If you are talking about other people I cant recall a whole lot of stances from off the top of my head... Sajin, charter and vaya. But you are a whole lot more scummy then them and we have been over this quite a few times.

@SB - Read my exchange with him from yesterday. There you will find a case so compelling, even Kise has to vote himself.

[LlamaFluff]

Since you are the expert on who it applies to apparently... who does it apply to?

This might be good

*popcorn*

[LlamaFluff]

From memory so there may be an error:

n1 snow
n2 light rain
n3 sunny
n4 No action cause I frogot
n5 No action again, I suck at this remembering thing Also got a one shot from spyre at this point
n6 cloudy + one shot doc used on socio

N1 - In scene
N2 - "cloudy wet" in scene (im guessing good)
N3 - In scene
N4 - nothing
N5 - nothing
N6 - nothing

So chamber got blocked last night. We can add him to the list of "non-strangle" players with Sajin and Stark.

Assuming Spy isnt strangle kill (what happens if anti-town was killed by SC?) its either Kise, SB or Vaya.

All the more reason to lynch Kise over Sajin if you ask me. 1 in 3 chance of hitting strangle even if we are shooting at random.

For no slit kill, either I blocked it with my protection or chamber is slit kill. Unfortunately inconclusive, but we can rule chamber out of strangle from daybreak flavor.

[LlamaFluff]

Im not going to disagree with a Sajin lynch being one that should eventually happen. I just think Kise-Sajin is going to be the last two lynches, and due to the role of Kise, want that lynch to happen first. In the offchance that Kise or Sajin are town, lynching Kise second can have catastrophic results if he doesnt agree to self-hammer.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, why should I self-hammer? Never said I was a bomb, silly.

Cause no one loses a vote.

Lets say my theory of VPB and Spy do not count for their faction (and lets assume they are confirmed town, even though in all actuallity only one of them can be anti-town). That aside, we can get in trouble if we enter a day with VPBmafia, townie X, Spy, SK and one of the town players have no vote. Well at that point scum can just force a no lynch and win out.

If you are town and self-hammer when you are going to be lynched (today), it prevents that from ever happening.

Guys Kise lynch over Sajin lynch today. Seriously.

[LlamaFluff]

I see where stark is going with this, but I dont think it really is going to pan out

Kise lynch is better

[LlamaFluff]

someone hammer

[LlamaFluff]

Hey Spy, did you target chamber last night?

[LlamaFluff]

So im not going to vote SB yet, although PoE dictates that I should. I actually was all ready to lynch Vaya today for being strangler but ah well.

Anyways, "living" is me, chamber, SB, Sajin. If a 'dead' player is making kills for their faction thats going to be odd

@VPB/Spy - Do you count for the towns numbers?

But I know im not making those kills, Sajin got blocked (unblockable scum im going to discount), chamber is dead anyways, so that leaves SB.

@Sajin - Either SP blocked chamber making the kill or I saved him N6. Slit kill hasnt shown twice now.

[LlamaFluff]

Also please no one hammer SB right now, I would like to do a little more thinking about stuff first.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama I have to assume I could for towns numbers or else... screwed? At this point.

Yeah its kind of my point. If there are really four alive, any lynch loses the game flat out. In that case no lynch an hoping any NK-able anti-town knows not to kill and gets killed by other anti-town is the only way to get a win out of this.

Although as im writing this I am reminded of chambers impending death, so unless its a chamber-X (which it very well may be given the lack of kill when I think he got RBed), we have lost either way.

And as others have been saying this whole time - We arent lynching VPB

[LlamaFluff]

vote SB

I went through another thinking loop. The only way scum doesnt die is if SB is town, charter is town (or scum who magicly gets better), Sajin is strangler AND one of Spy/VPB is scum.

If all those are true I call shenanigins.

[LlamaFluff]

Ah... the "im town" defense

[LlamaFluff]

You arent dead yet hun. We still need sajin or chamber or Bill Cosby to finish it

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama- I cannot be strangler. I thought we went through this already (as quoted for VP). Thanks for not reading my posts.

Ment slit, not strangle.

@SB - Strangle only didnt show N1. No one alive was blocked N1, so either VPB had a good protect, something else stopped the kill, or there was no kill submitted

[LlamaFluff]

If I would have been blocked by the bubble thing (that if I recall correctly was more of a jailkeeper than a roleblocker) I wouldn't have been able to get Spyrex' potion.

Pretty sure a roleblock wouldn't prevent receiving things, just abilities. At least that is how I would do it as a mod.

The thing is, as far as I know, it wasn't a roleblock but a jailkeep. And that can prevent me from receiving things.

Enough arguing why we shouldnt lynch you. How about arguing who is scum instead? If you were town here, we would need to lynch someone else. Its still technically scumhunting when scum looks for other scum, practice makes perfect.

[LlamaFluff]

You want to know why we arent lynching Sajin? He didnt hammer

The ONLY way Sajin is scum is he is afraid that the ghosts count as alive and are town and he loses after he kills me. Or that a ghost is scum and the game doesnt end untill we lynch the ghost.

I dont think this is the case. Scum-Sajin who has a good chance of being lynched regardless would of made his move.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm lost regarding some info in this game, and, if someone could remind me, is SpyreX confirmed town? Because I have this feeling from some time ago that he is scum. O wait, I just found the reasons why he can't be scum. Not the best, but I'll go along with them for now.

Ummm... ok? I dont get point of this

One claimed first, claiming only half doctor. A CC wouldn't be a strong scumtell, as though the claim is odd, it's still possible. Then, the other, not knowing that the other one is actually lying, decides to go for the same, making it a good claim. So, I'm leaning towards one being the SK, and the other scum.

Except I softclaimed more then once that I was a doctor before VPB claimed

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama:

Is your action "special" as well?

Active actually

[LlamaFluff]

Sorry it is actually special, I should take the time to check stuff like that instead of just assume doctor is your basic active.

[LlamaFluff]

Im still waiting
waiting for the day
Yeah im still waiting
waiting for the day

Im still waiting for tomorrow
tired of living in yesterday

Im still waiting
waiting for GHOST DAD to end the day...

[LlamaFluff]

Sajin voters, its not happening. Seriously.

We've basically proven why he is town. Vote ScumBunny

[LlamaFluff]

Before we get too far

@VPB - Can you self-protect? If so what are your restrictions?

[LlamaFluff]

Stopping in to say that VPBs restriction for self-targeting is the same as mine. What I DONT get is how chamber and VPB both look like last slit but no one looks like the strangle at this point.

@VPB - The 'doc is alive' arguement you are using on me applies to you too you know.

Also we obviously are not lynching today. We lynch someone non-town wins unless we hit strangle as I stand a 50-50 of protecting the right person (me/other town).

[LlamaFluff]

Each night I can target any player, alive or dead, however I can not target the same player on consecutive nights. I can target myself but the consecutive nights thing applies there as well.

[LlamaFluff]

Ok cool, please explain your reaction here then:

I protected myself last night.

Wait what? You can do that?

Trying to draw targets. If I just said "yes you can target yourself" chances are I dont get targeted since you never laid out limitations. Im just playing a WIFOM game to my disadvantage if I claim I can, if I cant I have the upper hand

[LlamaFluff]

Also if you thought it ment I couldnt self-protect, why didnt you say anything there? Our roles seem to be basically identical in all aspects. Did you at least put anything down there as a 'this is interesting' crumb?

[LlamaFluff]

Vote No Lynch

I dont think really putting all cards on the table is the right move yet. Also it should be obvious, but scum shouldnt kill tonight. It lets SK chose the endgame, but scum killing loses them (and town) the game if the kills dont double up.

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama

I would prefer a few questions get answered before any decision is made and I would rather weigh the pros and cons of no lynching in this situation.

You never answered my question nor are you allowing me to get my others asked.

Discussion is the lifeblood of the town and you would be advocating that if you were part of it.

Would it not be better for the scum to kill the SK?

Are you insinuating the SK is kill immune?

Its one scum, one SK. How kills are going down and how the game is still in progress tells us that much. Also yes, with a vig and scum im making a safe assumption that we have a NK immune SK. Therefore also safer for scum not to kill

If you dont see why no lynchins wins out here I will explain it to you, but our chances are dangerously low already to be perfectly frank. I just see relying on good lynch, stopped kill, good lynch as not good (especially low given a theory but will refrain for now).

Anyways, if we are no lynching, and scum isnt going to kill, SK crafts the endgame, and I want to give them as little information as possible. So yes im advocating just shutting down the day.

[LlamaFluff]

You do also realize if town lynches scum the last one NKs town to win unless doctor hits a coinflip.

If we ARE lynching, I outright refuse to claim. If we lynch strangle scum would know if they can kill me or not. VPB already claimed so if we lynch slit strangle wins flat out.

So yeah, we are already borderline screwed. Slit lynch and we lose, strangle lynch and we have a coinflip. I like the x-kill odds to this

[LlamaFluff]

N1 - VPB
N2 - VPB (which I realzied failed later due to not being able to target twice) effectively no action according to mod
N3 - Plum
N4 - SP
N5 - self
N6 - SP
N7 - self
N8 - sajin

[LlamaFluff]

So you didn't understand your role PM initially?

It was over 70 pages and a month since I replaced into the game. My role does explicitly say that I cant protect twice in a row (it doesnt mention self-protect, I realized that after you claimed it) but I just had forgotten it and assumed that I could. Did the same thing with active/special later.

[LlamaFluff]

Well, that is really where my problem is coming from Llama. You've had a lot of stuff that came after I claimed my role that is all a bit revisionist so your role is in tune with mine.

Now, essentially your defense is 'whoops, made some mistakes' or 'I was WIFOMing', which I was willing to let slide earlier because there were definitely people who looked scummier than you, but at this point I don't see how you could legitimately not be scum of some type.

If you're town, what type of scum do you think Sajin is? chamber?

Well, my notes say chamber is slit. Which by process of elimination leaves you as strangle (even though I thought you would be slit given that scum having SK-kill doc makes sense).

You can also see where everything happened

-You claimed self-target abilities, you can see where I asked the mod about me doing so
-You claimed special, I claimed active before I checked
-I asked you about restrictions (what are they not do you have any) and they were the same as mine.

[LlamaFluff]

Heres what has happened

N2 (or was it three, im dead tired but want to post before I go to sleep and forget) when VPB got 'roleblocked' he did get targeted by Spy, although he did not get roleblocked. He most likely just picked up a one shot something and didnt say what it was. NO ONE else had this happen. We had abilities, we had 'nothing' and we had poision that somehow wore off. No explicit results though. Really it was a brilliant move, he was 'killed' so regarded as basically confirmed town, he just was putting another safety knot in his harness. What better way then to confirm yourself as non-strangle then to claim it would of been impossible when it couldnt be proved! Coupled with him being strangle, it made sense to claim (he may of been given this safeclaim, I wouldnt doubt it given that this is all PRs) protection from his own kill. He either guessed my details correctly in the case of self-protect, or infered the restriction (double target rule). Also it makes less sense for town to have anti-SK protection, then it is to have anti-mafia protection.

Chamber is far more obvious. N6 no one died from slit. D7 there was no weather. D7 chamber claimed to of submitted an action. Chamber got RBed submitting the kill.

Now we have an inherant problem. SK likely has figured out scum. So if we no lynch, I dont think we can really win this. Its POSSIBLE, but honestly I doubt it. It would require a block of the SK kill by who I think the SK is, and then hitting a 50-50 protect by me the following night.

Anyways, here is a possibility if people agree that im town, and that VPB is SK. Lynch VPB, my thoughts havent changed since daybreak, so im going to outright say that I may of lied about my target last night. Who knows, maybe I threw away my action predicting this would occur, or saved chamber from poision. I could be unrestricted tonight though for killing, and if I get my protect right, town can win.

So I want mostly Sajin to weigh in since he is most likely town here.

Do we assume that I am town and take a crack at this, or do we no lynch and hope SK has a bad read?

[LlamaFluff]

This post confuses me. 1 If you are town then no townies trust it(i.e. me) 2 don't we want the sk to hit mafia tonight? (and vise versa?) I think its the only way we win.

If the town fully trusts me or VPB to be town, lynching might be better. I saw this scenario coming and easily could of lied last night about my action.

The other way we win would require us to hit VPB and him be strangle. It would leave me with a 50-50 chance of blocking the kill to win.

[LlamaFluff]

N2 (or was it three, im dead tired but want to post before I go to sleep and forget) when VPB got 'roleblocked' he did get targeted by Spy, although he did not get roleblocked. He most likely just picked up a one shot something and didnt say what it was. NO ONE else had this happen. We had abilities, we had 'nothing' and we had poision that somehow wore off. No explicit results though. Really it was a brilliant move, he was 'killed' so regarded as basically confirmed town, he just was putting another safety knot in his harness. What better way then to confirm yourself as non-strangle then to claim it would of been impossible when it couldnt be proved!

I don't understand whatever scenario you are trying to suggest happened here. Please explain this differently.

I dont think that Spys potion RBed you and I think you are using a safeclaim.

He either guessed my details correctly in the case of self-protect, or infered the restriction (double target rule).

haha, this is utterly ridiculous. You are suggesting that I guessed all of the details of your role (which you had to correct almost all of in thread after I claimed mine) before you claimed them? Flail, scum, flail....or should that be fail scum?

Actually you claim, I did then went back and corrected them. If I was mirroring you there wouldnt be those mistakes. You can see where I realize I can self-protect, you can see me leading that there is a restriction (not do you have but what is)

No lynch and hoping for a cross kill is clearly the only option the town has here since doc protect tonight is basically out the window.

More then likely yes, but this is the only other win chance, and im taking it.

[LlamaFluff]

Well lets end the day then

[LlamaFluff]

Well this kind of sucks.

[LlamaFluff]

So what, you are claiming scum then?

[LlamaFluff]

I will give a speech but it wont be untill late tomorrow or the day after that. Semester starts monday and I have a lot of stuff to attend to over the next couple days.

[LlamaFluff]

Screw this, I spent a three hour drive thinking of this, but there is no good way to make this move. Brute force "I deserve it" tactic time.

Town cant win this game at this point, so I will say why I should.

So what, you are claiming scum then?

Where did I do that?

Here

Ok, no problem. I'm the Master of Cloth. My power type is special and allows me to manipulate the fibers of anyone's clothes (including mine) and protect them from strangulation.

I was born in the poor outer districts of Surico and used my power growing up to support my family as a tailor. Life was hard and blah blah blah. When I heard about the Giver's death, I realized that I could be much more than tailor and could gain fame and fortune for my family by helping protect the citizens of Surico from the threat among them.

N1: I protected Volkan
N2: I protected Plum
N3: I tried to protect PZ. I received a PM from the mod saying that I was feeling woozy and fell into a deep sleep last night, thus rendering me incapable of using my ability. Thanks Spyrex. (not that it would have mattered in the long run I guess, but still).

This is actually you claiming mafia. Im not doubting that mafia had a role that protected against SK (my) kill, although there is a good chance you actually arent a doctor. Yeah ive known you were scum since massclaim, there was just no way to get you lynched without getting me lynched next.

Im guessing one of the disappearing slit kills was figuring out im NK immune.

The protection against scum kills was my safeclaim, even though I really am 'The Baker'.

First off, why I kept screwing my claim is because VPB got trapped and had to keep changing his in ways that. First off, my ability is active, not special. Im wondering if you dont have a doctor ability since its the only way to explain SC not getting it. Also killing isnt active (its physical), so thats why it wouldnt of appeared.

Also you cant self-protect, says that explicitly in my fakeclaim. Trying to get you to say you had it was double confirming you since I started second guessing myself. All that was really frustrating to me since I had forgotten you switched up your fakeclaim when I had to claim later on.

ANYWAYS

Biggest reasons why I think I deserve this win are the first that im the SK, he is mafia. He had help and more information on others thanks to partners, all together more ability to get a read on the game I didnt have. On my own since day one. Ive gone through this entire game picking up at most one vote, and absolutely no suspicion untill Kise got mad at me for pushing his lynch. This was through solid play, picking the right wagons, and pushing the right lynches. VPB got targeted by SC who made everyone think he was essentially confirmed town. People just forgot about VPB and Spy for the entire game, he got himself a free pass for suspicion untill late in the game, that I didnt have to work with.

He has played a great game, im not going to say he hasnt. If it wasnt for the claim there is no way I would of though that he was the last scum. I plan to nom for best losing cause performance after all this is done, he deserves that all the way. I just had a whole lot more obsticals to overcome then he did if you go back and look at the game. He 'died' so got ignored suspicion wise, he had partners, he couldnt be lynched without me going next. I had a lot more to fight through, and made it through the game with just as much, if not less suspicion then he did.

Vote VPB

[LlamaFluff]

@VPB - You seem to completely forget that I was saying everyone voting SB day one (like KK) was scum. You forget that I wanted tubby lynched flat out for the first two days.

The only thing that changed my view on tubby was the wierdness involving roles and the fact that scum-hider made absolutely no sense, it was actually a danger for the scum to have a hider. Dram I thought was town 100%, I got that one wrong all the way. He looked town before the claim, and after the claim I figured there was no way he possibly could be scum. Also if the person you think is scum claims cop with a guilty, its best to lynch the claimed guilty. If they were wrong you get your scum the next day, wasnt a lylo situation.

Seriously though, how does player A hid behind B, player C JKed B make you want to lynch one of them right off the bat? I figured it ment all of them were obviously town and it was going to be a pain to figure out the best way to NK all of them.

You also forget BM was a completely inevitable lynch. No reason again as scum I wouldnt of jumped on and now been pulling the same 'lulz I lynched scum' thing you did.

~~~

If you also want to look at the 'who pushed what' part of this game. Take a look at how we played the late game. VPB hung back for the most part, happy to take part in the inevitable lynches (Elmo and Snow) while just defending himself (with the help of me and Spy). I on the other hand actually took some control making sure that Kise was able to be lynched, and sticking myself out there a bit to make sure that neither of us lost the game because people wised up quick enough.

VPB went into coast mode, I went into 'achieve mislynch' mode. Basing who deserves it on late game play, its me since I actually was an active part of trying to get some mislynches as opposed to just following along with wagons.

Just think about it though, look at both our play through the game and put the vote down for who you think played a better game. If you dont belive im the SK, look at both of us as both anti-town alignments and vote who you think played a better game as either. I think no matter what you believe me to be I came out on top.

[LlamaFluff]

I had been playing Spyrex since like day 2. I almost felt bad about it. Letting you live to support my claim was also my choice, as I could have easily killed you much sooner. Being strategic is good play, not bad.

Yet you ignore my whole point about stopping doing anything but following the popular lynches and my push on Kise. Im not saying you didnt play Spy well, I am saying you werent a driving force behind finding a new mislynch, one that neither of us could NK as well.

VPB went into coast mode, I went into 'achieve mislynch' mode. Basing who deserves it on late game play, its me since I actually was an active part of trying to get some mislynches as opposed to just following along with wagons.

This makes no sense. Let's look at activity if that's what you want to do....let's see here, iso button, Llama, go... 151 posts. ok

iso button, VP Baltar, go....303 posts.

And there you have it. Somehow i have coasted and yet posted twice as often as you and was never called out for anything like coasting or just going along with popular lynches. We can get into detailed arguments about it if you'd like, but I don't think you could be more wrong.

[/quote]

Lets get into it actually. What lynches that werent popular did you push from scratch? I know Kise was my doing, I at least tried to get PZ lynched, you I cant remember doing much but getting out of the way of lynches that were doomed to happen (BM, Elmo, SB)

Yes you posted more then I did, but I did more to get the lynches that were needed for the win.

Just think about it though, look at both our play through the game and put the vote down for who you think played a better game. If you dont belive im the SK, look at both of us as both anti-town alignments and vote who you think played a better game as either. I think no matter what you believe me to be I came out on top.

And rather than refuting any kind of argument I made about how he isn't the SK he simple reverts to "look at both of us as both anti-town alignments". This is an admission that he was lying about his role in the first place.

If you want, Sajin, we can both claim our actual flavor and see whose is more believable. (obviously Llama-liar should go first).

If he doesnt believe me about being the SK, I dont want to lose the game I came so far by myself on that alone. I think even if he buys you are the SK, I have played a better game as a whole, and want to get that point.

Also yes... the flavor I claimed about wanting to help really is my real flavor... of course.

Seriously though, how does player A hid behind B, player C JKed B make you want to lynch one of them right off the bat? I figured it ment all of them were obviously town and it was going to be a pain to figure out the best way to NK all of them.

So it was going to be a pain to NK all of these folks you thought were confirmed town, and yet you didn't want to join the popular lynching wagons on them? That makes a lot of sense. I would think an SK in that situation would at least consider the possibility that they were scum trying to clear each other, which I did and was the truth.

Right. I figured they were all town, and if one of them was going to get lynched I wasnt going to be a part of it and pick up some points for being off the wagon, and more points for pushing a scum wagon in the meantime. Them being scum made that plan backfire pretty harshly, but it was the right move I think. You just NK the JK and the cleared player from the hider. The hider will eventually die off with a bad move.

You also forget BM was a completely inevitable lynch. No reason again as scum I wouldnt of jumped on and now been pulling the same 'lulz I lynched scum' thing you did.

Well, I don't know about you, but when I see an easy scum lynch against a team that's not me I'm more than happy to take it. I guess your main course of action is to let others take it for you?

Yeah I should of just jumped that wagon. I was a little more intent on making sure that Ben/Elmo were going to get lynched though instead of pushing the easy lynch through.

[LlamaFluff]

Wonder what this does with both of us being NK immune?

[LlamaFluff]

Yeah that was basically impossible for me I realized around day six since there was no way I could get VPB lynched without outing myself before lylo.

Was a good game though

[LlamaFluff]

. Remember kiddies, Lllamafluff ultimate scumtell is surviving more than day 2.

No my ultimate scumtell is replacing into a game. Im always get scum roles when I do that, and never when I joined from the queue

That was really frustrating though, I knew my only choice was to claim SK and hope that Sajin wanted to give me the game, or hope that Sajin getting targeted was him becoming a PGO/Bomb and staying back would win it.

VPB played a great game though, was not lying on most of my problems claiming were how much VPB differed from my real doctor role. I had a watcher fakeclaim, but that would of just got me killed by VPB so I couldnt do that one.

I should of handeled PZ putting up a obviously guilty on dram better then I did. At that point though I figured I was comitted and had to push for him, dram going down there was just going to wreck the scum though so I had to hope PZ or Sajin got quicklynched.

Great game though

[LlamaFluff]

Out of curiosity Llama, would there have been any way in hell I could have convinced you to lynch Sajin that last day?

I thought about claiming that I only had a bulletproof vest and that I was willing to settle for a "draw" with you because we had both out played the town (which is true), but I didn't know if you had targeted me multiple times for NKs.

I wouldnt of since I figured it would of been a loss for me. If I knew it was really a draw I would of done it, but I knew you were NK immune at that point, and thought it would be a loss. Playing for a low win chance trumped taking what I figured as a loss. If I WAS NK immune, I would of voted Sajin right out the gate saying we both deserve it.

I didnt get lynched though, so now as scum im two times more likely to die from opposing anti-town then lynched. Happy about that one