California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[VP Baltar]

Hey all, I should be caught up before the weekend is over.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, this is one epic game to try and catch up in after replacing. I'm through the end of the first day/scene and the little bit of inbetween at the bottom of page 23. I figure I will step in now and give some mental spew. This should give some people ideas of where I'm at and also give me a chance to put a little reference marker for myself. I'll try to keep this brief since I'm still 10+ pages behind and some of these comments may be liable to change.

My strongest reads are as follows:

Scum:

KY Krew (duh)

Hewitt (he was by far the scummiest player on-stage and I was quite surprised that on a whole he has received little attention, at least as of page 23. He was definitely the most active in trying to edge the town toward the bad choice.)

BageleatingCowFrog- particularly when dahill is posting stinks of scum to me. His reasoning for getting on to zwets lynch originally looked very opportunistic. I don't recall any substantial scumhunting here and most of the times when they posted it looked like busy work. I was pretty shocked when SL said he was reading them as strongly town.

Town:

Sottyrulez and ckd are the only real obv town reads I had from the on camera session.

Off screen Mighty Orbots and GoofballsandBalloons played a strong town game on D1. elmosorian also seems to be pretty pro-town to me and I definitely don't understand people jumping on him trying to work out the mechanics while he was scumhunting. That is a very pro-town move in this game.

Everyone else is pretty much in a neutral/mildly scummy category for me at this point.

I think the game got seriously bogged down when Talilan went off screen and the Gaspar spat began. Out of that whole mess I think Gaspar looks better as a whole, but both sides make some fairly shoddy arguments at points and I really hope the walls of text can be seriously pruned as the game progresses.

As a whole, I think D1 went fairly well. A bit too much attention may have been paid to the On Camera business when everyone should have been scumhunting a bit more. I read the day knowing that zwet was town (as I felt this would add to my ability to analyze the D1 wagon), but I think even if I hadn't I would have found that wagon awful. I think the only think I found genuinely scummy from him (that being something that wouldn't fit within his meta as null) was when he said he only votes for hammers. I've played with zwet plenty of times and this is definitely not the case. Other than that, I think the scum were quite happy to keep his name in the loop even though there wasn't much actual reasoning to back it.

---

Ok, I'm going to embark upon Day/scene 2 now (reading the scene first). If anyone has any specific questions or would like me to comment on something specific from D1, just say so. Otherwise my next post will probably be after I am fully caught up.

[VP Baltar]

This whole comment by Glork [about the Count being 99% innocent] to begin with was entirely ridiculous. Especially considering the roles aren't our actual roles anyway.

This is a really good point and completely did not occur to me. How the hell can you say a role is innocent when different actors can occupy that role? Gaspar may go way up in scumminess depeding on the answer to this (as if forgeting who hewitt was playing in the first scene wasn't bad enough). If it's already been answered sorry, but I needed to note this.

[VP Baltar]

Coming into the world of being nearly caught up:

Which door would you vote for right now if it were up to you?
A) Door 1
B) Door 2
C) Undecided

My belief is that KY Krew knew one of the doors was bad ("door 3 won't help my charity, etc.") and that was probably the extent of the Advocate knowledge. Now, since the scum know for a fact what decision is good for them, we simply enter all kinds of WIFOM and doublethink. I'm pretty undecided right now as to which way to go, but I don't know if that is likely to change, so my gut says we should switch doors as discussed per the problem.


In other news, talilan and bageleatingcowfrogthingamahjobber are starting looking a little bit better to me over the last few pages, though they are nowhere near my townish category yet.

I will also keep my eye on whoever is replacing mufasa/keyblade.

boo. You were suspicious of my predecessor I take it. What for exactly?

you should forget about that list. I don't give anyone town-points, so if you get the feeling that I find a player suspicious based on how I talk to them, then I more than likely do.

errrr, wrong. Make your list of who the scum are or die. Thanks!

Welcome. I was wondering when I would play another game with you.

Hi, to both of you!

Yay, VP is playing!

Hi, Sotty (and zach)! Let's see if our town powers are as good as our scum powers.



Glad to see the Talilan v. Gasper bible wars have started again. I thought was going to be stuck reading the DGB blackhole's of idiocy for the rest of this game. Joy hath overcome me.

My first condorcet:

Vote: KY Krew, hewitt, StarKiss, Panzerjager, Gaspar, Talilan, BagelEatingCowFrog, [Everyone else], No Lynch, VP Baltar

[VP Baltar]

Welcome, VP Baltar!

Hi! Quick question, why am I in your "scum crowd"?

Second question, why is hewitt so non-scummy in your eyes that he doesn't even make your list?

Third question, How is this:

I'm not thrilled with what appears to be condescension seething through many of Gaspar's posts

A scumtell?

I've already explained this, but you probably haven't gotten to my explanation yet.

Yeah, I got to it a bit after I made that post.


I say the time to switch is now. We may as well have a calm On Camera scene happening and not risk any mistakes. We still have thesp being able to communicate if we want them to switch doors and if we are ready to lynch. Meanwhile, we can rough up KY Crew back here *slips on brass knuckles* and hopefully get some more clues as to who his scumbuddies are.

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar suggests that Thesp should send the switch signal now. But - did they pick anything yet?

Ah, no. I was saying Talilan should tag in now so we can get KY Krew out of there and the On Camera people can actually start working toward a door decision. I said even if things go mildly awry there we still have Thesp here to help right them.

[VP Baltar]

We cannot outthink this problem. It is impossible to do so. So let's just pick one and go with it. I'm all for flipping coins, if need be.

Well, that leads to the question of who is flipping said coin. If there is day talking, scum know which is the right door and which is the wrong door and would no doubt try to influence our decision here. Should we all just take a firm stance on which door to pick and majority rules?

[VP Baltar]

I'm good with letting the people on screen work it out, since right now a majority of my scum reads are off screen. I don't think we want to post the green light just yet since that means "make a decision now". I'd rather get KY Krew in here and see what we can get out of them first. Once we are satisfied with that and have KY securely leading the condorect, then we post the green light.

Also, DGB, I think you missed some stuff in the thread. KY picked the first door already and Door 3 was revealed to be bad. They now have a choice between Door 1 and Door 2. Unless I misunderstood your posts above.

[VP Baltar]

Are you saying you want to toy with KY Krew up here before killing him? Or should we start voting him now, then Talilan stunts, and the second he's here, he's dead?

Well, I'm ok with placing him firmly in the lead in the condorcet before he even arrives if that is what you're asking. However, I think we should see if he'll try and speak for his actions yesterday, since he hasn't done that as yet. I doubt it will yield much, but if he'd like to try and explain himself before he gets lynched, then I'm all for the extra information. Stunting him into a lynch without at least trying to get some additional info seems like less than optimal play.

[VP Baltar]

So, let's get a list of things we want Talilan to relay to the On Camera folks then.

1) We don't have info as to which is the correct door, and we leave it up to them to decide. If that changes, we will use the predetermined signals through Thesp to indicate which door we would prefer.

2) Stop chewing the scenery with your horrid acting.

[VP Baltar]

3) We generally don't believe there is a cult and the persons on screen shouldn't worry about that when making their door decision.

(I'm just shooting these out there btw, if anyone has a dispute or addition, speak up.)

ESPECIALLY THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If they say "dear" one more time I think I will have to get my hunting rifle.

[VP Baltar]

Please get KY Krew out of there. I see he is trying to direct people toward door 1 now.

[VP Baltar]

The complete lack of presence by those highest on my scumlist assures me that my suspicions are rightly placed.

I'd like you to give us your explanation for stunting out yesterday KY Krew and also a full list of who you think is scum.

Vote: KY Krew

, hewitt, StarKiss, Panzerjager, Gaspar, Talilan, BagelEatingCowFrog, [Everyone else], No Lynch, VP Baltar

[VP Baltar]

Talilan seems to be moving forward full steam on making a decision, so we should probably just take care of KY Krew I guess. At least make sure he is in the lead so any impromptu ending to the on camera scene would be his demise.

[VP Baltar]

seems to me that the day will just continue if we lynch before they are done. I'm not sure if we get the flip before they are done or not.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, lynch now plz. We clearly have an assitant producer who is scum.

[VP Baltar]

KY Krew is at L-2 as far as I can tell. Vote now for this limited time offer!

[VP Baltar]

Thankfully you can only stunt in once per scene, according to the role descriptions on the first page. I don't think he can stunt himself back over again.

Oh yeah...forgot about that. whew.

[VP Baltar]

Still why chose KY Krew again?

The rules say the AP has to be innocent? If so, then I guess I'm wrong and it probably isn't worthwhile exploring why KY Krew was put in that position. If the AP is guaranteed innocent, then we don't need any discussion that could potentially out him or her.

[VP Baltar]

I fail to see how that implies a cult.

[VP Baltar]

Your avatar is wearing a hoodie!

BOOGIE WOOGIE WOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[VP Baltar]

I disagree that the Assistant Producer is scum. For one, the job name is

explicitly listed as being Innocent

. Secondly, Krew is OBVIOUSLY going to be lynched (in fact, by my count, G&B's vote was the hammer), so the Assistant Producer will be able to choose a new Stuntman once Krew is dead. Which will be as soon as Mr. Grey comes in to wrap up the day.

On the super duper extreme 0.000000000000000001% chance that Krew was town, the AP benefits by not having to commit to naming a new Stuntman yet. Furthermore, the AP can listen to whom our Director wishes to put On Camera in Scene Three, and can choose a Stuntman who will definitely be left Off Stage.


Again... common sense, folks. The AP's decision making process all game have been very logical and natural, for anybody who has bothered to pay attention.

Well, considering this was resolved several posts ago, I'm not sure what you're shitting a brick over.

[VP Baltar]

Considering the AP's innocence was resolved several pages ago, I'm not sure what you were shitting a brick over.

I eat a lot of fiber. Side effects include memory loss.

[VP Baltar]

@Panzer, so do you think the failure to stunt in early makes Talilan scummy? Have you found anything else suspicious about their play, or is that basically it?

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, I definitely thought it was a strange thing to say, Gaspar.

[VP Baltar]

At any rate, are we sure our friends are going to put an end to the person in question? If they are, I would like to know where "her" loyalty stood before voting. This information I believe is important so please do not speed us to a hasty decision. If our friends plan on putting an end to this person, I want to know her "alignment"....if they dont have plan on putting an end to said person, I want to know that too.

Well, it appears ckd doesn't remember the rules properly about the flip not coming until the scene is over. We can send the signal that KY Krew is dead, but I don't know how we are going to convey that we don't get an alignment flip yet. Hopefully one of the on stage people remember this.

I move for Thesp to inform them that KY is dead, unless someone has a reason not to.

[VP Baltar]

And I obviously agree with the KY Krew lynch so yeah that was good.

Good thing you parked your vote on Panzer and were away for the main event then.

[VP Baltar]

I agree with the photoshopped pic since MO's pics have proved to be too vague for our needs.

[VP Baltar]

Good god Mighty Orbots continues to blind me with his townness. Thesp, please get in here and put up a pic of a generic bird in a nest asap.

In other news, what do people think of elmosorian's last few posts...regular townie doubtfulness or mischief making?

[VP Baltar]

I'm going to take it that Mr. Grey meant the outcome for Scene 2 was good. Anyhow, Scientologist sounds like a cult to me....guess KY Krew was telling the truth perhaps. Though it seems strange that he would tell us there was a cult when we would have had no clue otherwise.

I want to look back and see who believed him out of hand about the cult when he first brought it up.

[VP Baltar]

Well, this also calls into question if ckd was telling the truth earlier about the scum team name. I don't see any reason for him to lie, but I also fail to see how a cult factors into the pre-destined endgame .

[VP Baltar]

I ask a player to pick Heads or Tails. If the player is right, they win. If they are wrong, they get nightkilled.
The player picks Heads. It was the correct pick.
Why did my attempt to kill fail?

Think about this, DGB, and apply it to the WIFOM situation. Even though it was WIFOM, we still had a 50% chance of getting it right. We happened to get it right. That's why they failed.

Yeah, but I think she makes a valid point because of the 50/50 factor. It would have been the ideal situation for the scum to influence town toward the wrong decision and take zero blame for it because they were just "flipping a coin". Scum knew what the right and wrong doors were, so we do need to look at why it was a reasonably easy decision to pick the correct door. We also need to look at those who were excessively trying to cloud the decision and pick the wrong door (elmosaurian).

*or what DGB just said much more succinctly.

Stray idea popped into my head: if we are facing a cult and a mafia, the good or bad decisions we make on screen (or successful lynches) could determine who we face in end game. Personally, I would not want to have to root out a cult in the scenario. I have no idea if this is the case, but thought i would put it out there.

I also think elmosaurian needs to stay off screen if he's not required to go up there. His stance in the KY thing is highly illogical.

[VP Baltar]

Yes, in my Post 974, I mused on the same thing. I think it's probably our biggest point of interest right now. After DGB's explanation, I understand what she was saying, and I'm curious about it myself.

Yeah, sorry about that. I typed my post up and walked away to make dinner before I read through it and posted it. You beat me to the punch.

[VP Baltar]

Why does KY flip call that into question? When you see a 3rd party in another game, do you automatically assume there is no mafia? Mr. Grey name is fitting…everything is not always black or white.

Eh, see it from the perspective of we don't have whatever information you claim to have. KY brought up the idea of a third party in the first place, which seems very very strange if he is third party, no? As I said above, however, I see no reason for you to bring up the mafia name if you didn't have that information. I'm not assuming there is no mafia, but I think it is safe to say those without your information would at least need to consider the many different options of what is going on.

Taking suggestions and opinions, might or might not use them, but would like to hear stances anyway.

I would like hewitt and panzer to stay off camera and receive some pressure. I was lazy a bit in this regard after KY was lynched, but they definitely deserve another look. They did absolutely nothing in the last scene, so I think participation or die should be the battle cry against them in the next scene. I think Talilan should stay off screen and stunt out elmosaurian as well. I'd like sottyrulz to be on camera in the next scene, as I'm certain they are town. GnB are another town pick for me.

[VP Baltar]

I will admit that the thought of a third party scum group did cross my mind, considering how anti-town he had been acting, but I didn't really think it was that likely.

^This is what I am saying about non-sense. Why in the world would all of his anti-town actions automatically make you assume 3rd party rather than scum. Even if you think that the scum wouldn't put him in the scene as advocate (which I still think your logic is horrible on), how could you be so assured of that, that you would assume 3rd party over plain old scum.

[VP Baltar]

You are honestly comparing my contributions to Panzer's contributions? We've honestly been that similar in content posting?

tough break, that's how I see it.

I'm only skimming all of the bullshit between Gaspar, yos and PJ. learn to be succinct and leave irrelevancies out of it. Those of you who are town in that dispute should learn to cut down on the noise.

elmosaurian was simply trying to look "too scummy to be scum"- why defend someone who's obv-scum?

And didn't he say earlier that he lynches players who are anti-town regardless of alignment because they are hurting the town?

Here we are:

I do like to lynch people acting in a really anti-town way, on the theory that they're either scum or else they're a townie VI who's doing more harm then good.

Well then it shouldn't have even been a question really.

might want Jelly Lee off-stage as he wants to be and need some backup defending against bad attacks from Gaspar/elmosaurian, not sure on the others. Maybe VP Baltar and MafiaJin ("so he can be further scrutinised"?)

I have to be onstage as of right now.

Incidentally, while scientology cult is a possibility, ky krew in that situation is almost certainly not a recruit. Furthermore, there seems too be no indication that he is a recruiter either. Which makes me a little skeptical of the idea of a scientology cult.

This is a fairly good point, imo. No other flips with his death and no logical reason for the scum to recruit him makes cult sound much less likely.

The scientologists being the mafia doesn't really fit in the flavour, really.

^scientologist scum

I guess I'm going to have to stop the jacuzzi... you bunch of kill joys.

I hear blood is good for your pores, plus I brought my mankini to the party. Count me in!

[VP Baltar]

Also, for VP Baltar, I'm afraid you'll have to live with my long posts. I have truly tried to play games where I keep my posts short, but I always have a tendency to revert to my standard posting style.

Ok.... You were the least offending party anyhow. I basically view a large portion of this back and forth coming from people simply wanting to be right. It's pretty obvious elmosaurian is scum at this point. That fact has been proven repeatedly with his illogical stance on KY and insistent nudging toward door #2. No need to clog the thread or cause those who are behind to slip even further back because the page length explodes every time they log on.

[VP Baltar]

I am having trouble understanding how somebody could seriously doubt it.

That's exactly it from my perspective. I don't have a lot of experience with Yos, but I respect him as a highly logical player who, as town, always pursues the best course of action for town. Given the Day 1 actions of KY, which Yos was fully aware of, I don't see how he could reach the conclusion that he did. Too scummy to be scum doesn't seem like something that would enter his thought process, imo.

I also don't see why he doesn't see that the scum team putting KY in as advocate was the most logical move for them. KY was a guaranteed lynch. People were foaming at the mouth for it before the scene even started. If I was on the scum team, I would most certainly have him take the Advocate information and cause confusion and WIFOM before he bit the bullet. Had they put in a different member of their team and town picked the wrong door at their guidance, town surely would have wanted that person lynched next. This has all been said before, and Yos' responses have not given me any reason to believe that he actually felt that way.

You can keep trying to get him to prove his towniness to you, but imo he has had plenty of opportunity to explain it and hasn't come up with anything logical to back his stance.

[VP Baltar]

I still don't think there is a cult. I think KY Krew claimed the one thing that would make us panic the most. Unless you can explain to me how a cult works in the endgame that is laid out for us?

The only idea that occured to me was this:

Stray idea popped into my head: if we are facing a cult and a mafia, the good or bad decisions we make on screen (or successful lynches) could determine who we face in end game. Personally, I would not want to have to root out a cult in the scenario. I have no idea if this is the case, but thought i would put it out there.

I don't know if that's really likely, but it's the only thing I could think of that would semi-make sense with multiple scum factions.

[VP Baltar]

I believe PJ is going to contest that if that is true, then the nature of the setup means that two total mislynches puts us in a near-unwinnable situation, which is horrendously unbalanced setup. Did this thought ever cross your mind when you claimed that a mislynch tomorrow screws us over?

^This. Again, Yos is more logical than this.

[VP Baltar]

I've copied the signals down in my notes. All good here.

[VP Baltar]

balls. Reading up this afternoon.

[VP Baltar]

I think ckd is right about keeping quiet ahead of the scenes. I'm not quite finished with my reread, but I think we got duped yesterday in terms of who got chosen as advocates. I think we should save our suspicions until after the scene starts so the scum can't use it against us in their decisions.

That being said, I don't think the elmo lynch was a bad thing. If nothing else, that distraction is out of the way.

[VP Baltar]

caught up for the record. In terms of going on stage for the next scene, I think ckd should try to go with a mix. There are no advocates, so if you can split the scum between the threads town would have the best chances of getting ahead in both.

[VP Baltar]

Working under the assumption that Elmosaurian was scum, it seemed likely that he would lie to us since he was probably going to be lynched anyway. Had he been scum, it would have made perfect sense to misdirect the town in that scene.

I disagree with your assessment that it was scum driven, though I have thoughts who could be scum on it. However, discussing that too early seems to be what got us into trouble in the last scene, so that can wait for now.

[VP Baltar]

Again, indicating to the scum who is likely to be lynched in the next scene is a BAD IDEA. Openly strategizing before the scene starts is a BAD IDEA. I know we all have a lot to say, but I think waiting until the scene starts for a majority of these things is going to be infinitely more beneficial to us than spilling our plans and then giving the scum a chance to plan around those plans like they did yesterday. Everyone who is spurring on these types of discussions right now has jumped in my scumdar.

Discussing signals and that sort of thing is fine, but giving out information that will give scum an edge is not.

[VP Baltar]

Dear Ort, refer to my previous post and stop trying to get people to give their scum lists before the scene starts. thanks.

[VP Baltar]

Basically I counter VP Baltar's "we shouldn't post full scumlists before the scene starts, so that the Scums can't swindle us with the Good/Bad decision-making" with "the scum have a good idea of who most people suspect anyway from what they've said in previous scenes (which isn't a bad thing as it's automatically entailed by people being clear about who they suspect), therefore there's no point holding back between scenes"

reads change given, you know, WHOLE SCENES passing in between them. We seriously got boned in the last scene because everyone did tip their hand that elmo was the obvious lynch. I did it too, but I'll be damned if I let it happen again. Which brings me to my next point:

The reason elmosaurian was made an advocate wasn't because too many people slipped up between scenes and made their preferences clear. It was because he was obv-scum

Please don't pretend to be an idiot. It's unbecoming. If people hadn't been saying "let's lynch elmo derderderderder!" he wouldn't have been "obv-scum" to the scum. They are related conditions.

Also, since this revolves around thok, what is the difference if he states his scumlist now or if he states it after the scene starts? He hasn't been left off camera yet, right? Well, if CKD is town, he'll leave him off and then he can provide us with a long analysis post and it will remain there for all of history to peruse. There is no substantial benefit of him doing it now vs. in a day or two when the scene starts.

Maybe we should make condorcets not of people we necessarily suspect, but of the order in which we would like to see people go On Camera. We can use Mr. Grey's magickal plugin forumla to see who the leading "votegetters" are, then force CKD to send Grey a list of players in that order. If anything goes awry, we lynch CKD plain and simple.

Nope! because then the scum conveniently NK the town people from our list and bump up scummy people like they did yesterday. My my, how soon we forget.

This is also why I don't want people jabbering on about who they find scummy. Yes there are no advocates in the next scene, but you are laying the ground work on who they would graduate to on camera if they have any say in that process at all.

Do I have things to say about what happened on and off camera in the last scene? You bet your Evangelion ass, but I also have brains enough to keep my mouth shut until the appropriate time and place.

[VP Baltar]

VP the next scene doesn't even have any advocates, relax

No. That is not a valid reply to the reasons I gave not to do it. Until you provide any sort of actual logic as to why it is substantially more beneficial to have this lists at this exact moment, you need to stop goading people into making them.

[VP Baltar]

*dodges prod by an inch*

Sorry, was away for a few days. Needless to say I expected at least one of my other heads to post something. I'll PM/Stab them both in a swift motion.

reading up

~Dram~

Except you weren't away. I know for a fact you have been posting elsewhere. Why come in and say you were away?

[VP Baltar]

I also think a number of people are pretty town. I would normally say who these people are but I think some people have been saying to keep that to ourselves? Maybe just during the in-between night time here?

yeah, once the scene starts I think we should all unleash our full scumhunting abilities.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, now we're ready to go. Ckd, why did you choose who you chose for the off screen.

[VP Baltar]

I would not be up for a curiouskarmadog lynch today. The only time I didn't like his actions were yesterday's Scene 3 fiasco but otherwise, his behavior has been consistently protown

Why did you say this? As far as I know, nobody was even talking about a ckd lynch?

Also, I'd like to hear whatever conclusions you reached out of asking everyone their reasons for voting Crone.

[VP Baltar]

Hewitt, who do you think is scum and why?

Thesp, can we expect more regular participation from you from here forward? You have definitely been in the background a lot this game.

MafiaJin, you going to post or should we just lynch you outright?

[VP Baltar]

VP, who do you think is scum and why?

also, why is it a good idea to lynch mafiajin instead of just replacing them?

If we are talking strictly about those who are lynchable right now, then I would put my vote with either hewitt or MafiaJin. Hewitt has pretty much committed to nothing this game, which is not typical from him in my experience. I can sort of understand where he was coming from yesterday with not wanting to have culpability for the decision, but that is just such an anti-town stance to take.

MafiaJin is more of a gut thing in the sense that I have disagreed with many of their opinions throughout the game. Their scene 1 play didn't exactly strike me as pro-town either.


As far as if we should replace MJ, I didn't know we were preparing to do that. Their last post was two days ago...I assumed they were still in the game.

Additionally, I think we should take a serious look at SL today. I need to iso him asap.

I'm fairly confident that you are town this game. Thesp reads as town when he is here, but I'd like to see more from him.


As far as the people on stage go, it is a little sketchier. We still have the whole Gaspar vs. Talilan thing, which is very difficult to actually take a side in because I think both of them have made good and bad arguments in their general effort to pummel the town into submission with words. If I had to pick one to lynch, I'd say Gaspar, but it's a tough call.

GnB and Mighty Orbots are town in my eyes.

Panzer needs to be lynched because he really has given nothing to the game since day 1.

Sotty is prob-town, though I think their activity has dipped enough to shake my earlier obv-town read.

Pooky, idk.

Starkiss has been reasonably scummy throughout the game, but the people currently in that hydra almost always seem scummy to me. Probably need to do more indepth analysis here and see if anything sticks out. It doesn't help that they apparently have disagreements on things within the hydra and decide to hash it out in the thread rather than in their QT. I think they should have been lynched early on so we wouldn't have to deal with them.

Thok is apparently not playing up to his meta, but I don't have experience with him. I will say that he has lurked a reasonable amount and I really think it was annoying that he didn't say much at all yesterday and then roundly pissed and moaned about the decision that was made. I wouldn't cry if he was lynched.

[VP Baltar]

Well, it might get assigned later, right? We'll see.

[VP Baltar]

Ah, yeah, I actually did answer your question SL. It was in the post immediately after yours, so it's a little hard for you to miss it. For your convenience:

Working under the assumption that Elmosaurian was scum, it seemed likely that he would lie to us since he was probably going to be lynched anyway. Had he been scum, it would have made perfect sense to misdirect the town in that scene.

Here are some of the other responses as well, since you apparently didn't take the time to read them:

I guess I was wrong about the crone. I honestly expected at least one of the advocates to be lying (although it hasn't been proven they were both honest). I don't regret my decision though.

I voted for the Crone because when I was On-Stage during Scene 1 although I was fairly certain we should follow Valentine the Off-Stage people were a lot more sure of it than I was. It always seems to me like the Off-Stagers know more than the On-Stagers. So when Talilan piped in with this pro-Crone (which was really random now that I've looked back at the conversation at the time) and the "don't trust/lynch Elmo", multi-paragraph post I figured it was clear to everybody Off-Stage to follow the Crone. That and once we got the green light I figured that meant we were clear and correct, which re-affirmed my belief that the Off-Stagers thought the Crone was the correct choice. So I voted the Crone.

and for the record...I would have picked Crone too (though not for the reasons of the others). my deduction was that crone was either good or bad, and the mother was neutral or good. I was leaning for mother because it was a safe, and it would demostrate if I or Elmo was lying (if it flipped bad). But once it was apparent that Elmo was going to be hung, I figured what was the point

Why I voted crone: cuz i thought the scumbags would put the good choice with the ugly chick. Oops. I didn't even bother reading advocate info cuz um. I'm kinda dumb like that. plus lazy

For those asking rationalization of my vote on the decision, I think it's pretty much laid out on-camera. I didn't hold anything back.

So, actually, more people than the number of persons voting for the Crone answered your question. Now the question is how you can miss every single player answering your question. Is it an excuse because you don't actually have any analysis to provide from that question and were simply trying to look busy? Are you not reading the thread? Are you lazy? Do explain.

While you're at it, feel free to explain your reasons for putting me second on your list.

[VP Baltar]

@Jin-I'll look at your theories in a bit. I'm currently isoing SL. My reason for voting the Crone is the first one listed. I don't understand what you mean by my "reaction" to it.

I'll get to fleshing out my read on you before the day is out. As you can see, I said it was largely gut based.

[VP Baltar]

That's because your comments made no sense, as was already pointed out. Anyone with half a brain could have figured out that it was a good thing for the people on camera to learn the alignments, especially when those who were dead were detractors of some of the persons on screen. ALSO, if you were reading the thread, I wasn't even the first person to bring it up...so, as Orbots asked you previously, why single me out MafiaJin?

Also, you clearly do not grasp this setup very well if you think a scum advocate on their way to be hanged would not lie in that situation.

[VP Baltar]

Also, while I'm here, SL could you please give me your brief read on everyone still alive in the game at this point. Who would be your prefered lynch out of everyone and why?

[VP Baltar]

who apart from Panzer, hewitt? Can you give me a semi-complete list of your suspicions.

Also, what you are saying about Talilan's post definitely crossed my mind. I didn't see it at the time, but when we were on stage and you and DGB were saying it definitely said we should definitely pick the Crone, I figured the people off stage had caught some logic hole that we had missed in the original clues and deduced that it was the only choice to make.

Actually, looking at it more, I don't even understand his logic. How is the Crone obvious if we believe the information that was given? Also, no matter how he is figuring the logic in that post it seems to always lead back to the crone. I want to look more into his posting after he made that "slip" onstage and see if his tune changed substantially afterward.

[VP Baltar]

OK, completed iso read of SL. I think he's town. Suspicions have been relatively consistent throughout and has put up some good arguments at times. He doesn't post as frequently as some others, but nothing sticks out to me as active lurking.

Also,

MafiaJin wrote:
Sorry mod I am not used to that at all.

Which makes sense to me, so that combining the mother is not bad, with CKD's information implies maiden is good or mother is good.

Personally I think there are multiple scum on camera atm. The way that they are all shading chrone is very suspicious to me as given CKD info that seems impossible. At best its neutral, and I doubt that considering the pressure thats put upon it.

Ok I am good with a pro maiden picture. Or soundtrack. Can you use the pro maiden soundtrack?

Vote: Elmosaurian

Your previous post was heavily against an elmosaurian lynch. Here you switch to supporting his lynch without a single explanation.

FOS here as well.

Also wtf at no one else noticing that?

MafiaJin, explain now.

SL, can you point me to his "previous post" that you were refering to?

[VP Baltar]

Well, if we have to lynch someone off stage, let's start talking about preferences ckd. There isn't much else we can do at this point. If the situation changes, then we can address it at that time.

[VP Baltar]

Does anyone think that we should send and image so they know we don't have a stuntman? At first I was thinking evil knievel's gravestone, but that would have text on it. What about the famous pic of evil crashing his bike? Would that imply the message strongly enough?

[VP Baltar]

I tend to agree with Thesp. I think given that there are no true nights during the game, they might be able to communicate at any time.

Then again, the between scenes are quite long and Mr. Grey did say that during that time they will determine things like the advocates, so it could be possible that they can only discuss during that time.

(I'll address the other posts when I have a few more minutes.)

[VP Baltar]

I still want a Panzerjager lynch over any other lynch, and I want to hear what everyone else thinks of him. I'm serious.

I've said it before, but I think Panzer has been scummy all game and should probably die at the soonest and most opportune chance.

What was it in S1 that didn't strike you as pro-town, anything in particular? I want to go back and look at it.

What I didn't like was how sure MJ was early on that letting valentine drive was the best option and then as soon as people told her to slow down she suddenly had all kinds of doubts and even claimed that ckd was playing "mind games" with him. After that, he wasn't even around for the deadline, it all just seemed like scum stalling to me.

Now, in scene 2 MJ does indeed pick the correct door, but it seems to me that he actually never takes a side on the door issue or contributes anything until the decision is inevitable at deadline and everyone else has already voted. The only actual discussion he seems interested in is "talking with Mr. Locke" about why he was fired...not exactly what is important for the on stage folks.

@SL-thanks for pointing out those posts. I definitely agree with you that he flopped. I'm pretty much convinced at this point that MafiaJin is the best choice for a lynch out of this group.

Hell, why is Pooky getting away for posting stuff like: <snip>

Unfortunately, that is apparently the M.O. of pooky. I don't have any past experience with him, but I am in an ongoing with him and it is pretty much the same kind of useless garbage he is posting there. It's utterly unhelpful in determining alignment, and I couldn't tell you if it's coming from town or scum.

Earlier in the game, I had a pretty town read on Mighty Orbots. However, that was from Troll's posts mainly as well as the signal contributions. I just don't feel the same way about PZ's posting and they've moved into a Neutral area for me.

I agree with this big time. Troll had a lot of good ideas that were very pro-town, while PZ has had some half-cocked schemes that seem like things scum might say. I can't sort out if Troll is really just that good at looking town, or if PZ is just playing recklessly. Unlike you, however, I still probably have them in my town column.

@ckd-I don't agree with your lynch being a good idea. I think you are probably town and I know I'm not alone. I think MJ or hewitt would make more sense in terms of eliminating players who have been scummy and would likely be chosen by scum for endgame.

He's gone half the time and then the other half I feel is just busy work on his part.

Give me some examples of what you feel is "busy work" in his posts.

[VP Baltar]

Meant to put my condorcet in there.

Vote: MafiaJin, hewitt, [Everyone else], No Lynch, VP Baltar

[VP Baltar]

@Baltar- Why do you feel singled out by my comments?

As far as I recall, I'm the one you started talking about first. Also, nice deflection away from the question I asked you. Why did you attack me for it when I did not even bring up the idea first?

[VP Baltar]

And what do you think Thesp should be posting, hewitt?

[VP Baltar]

And what do you think Thesp should be posting, hewitt?

That's an impossible question soaked in WIFOM. The simplest answer I can think of would be that I want Thesp posting stuff that is beneficial to me figuring out who is scum and who is not.

It's really not impossible to answer. What I'm trying to determine is the actual disparity between what he has posted and what you expect. I don't see what the WIFOM is. What are your expectations to find a player protown?

[VP Baltar]

yeah, I think the lack of message should be informative enough to them that there were no deaths. Not that I see what any potential deaths off screen would do to impact the decision they have to make on camera.

[VP Baltar]

I think we can still make the best of a bad situation by lynching MafiaJin.

[VP Baltar]

wasnt it listed onstage too?

No, they don't know who holds what job. Only the AP does. However, whichever side of the screen the AP is on, he or she would know for sure that there is no stuntman. No point in wasting a pic, imo.

Any idea what message they are waiting for?

The green light so they know we are done lynching.

[VP Baltar]

@MafiaJin- I don't know where I'm "trying to prove SL towniness".

Also, can you explain why you spent all of Scene 2 trying to discuss why you were fired with ckd rather than working toward the actual decision?

[VP Baltar]

Actually, that's not what happened at all. I said I needed to do a reread of SL because I had a gut feeling that he was scum. After doing said reread, I concluded that my gut feeling was wrong and he was more likely to be town.

You should actually know this because I was talking to you at the time and told you I was in the middle of a reread. I find it likely you are greatly reaching in hope that the lynch isn't you today.

re: your play scene 2- That doesn't explain why you contributed virtually nothing toward the decision that needed to be made (either before or after the switch). Several other players were tying to work from the data available and decide if they should stick with KY's choice or not. Meanwhile, you only wanted to talk about why you were fired. So, what is the difference between yourself, who was apparantly waiting for the switch to get to the task at hand, and the other players who were still trying to work through the problem?

[VP Baltar]

Well, yeah, I mean they "should" know by previous scenes, but I'm just saying in terms of looking at a list of jobs like we can, they cannot. They seem to be figuring it out, though, so no worries there.

[VP Baltar]

You mean in terms of a lynch, hewitt? I'm ready for that, frankly (though I think SL was talking about the on screen folks). In fact, I'll get things rolling if we have nothing more to discuss in that sense.

Vote:MafiaJin

, hewitt, {Everyone else}, No Lynch, VP Baltar

[VP Baltar]

'ey, MJ, you going to explain why you made no effort toward figuring out the correct door in scene 2 or not? You spent a lot of time asking people what their opinions were on the correct decision, but never stated yours until you voted. What gives?

[VP Baltar]

There was zero point in figuring it out when I thought we had more information coming later. When we found out we had no new information coming then I posted on the topic.

You never took a side. I'll post your posts after KY was replaced so everyone can see how you contributed nothing.

Mr. Locke must be deaf. Granted we are all in a auditorium full of people in costumes, but surely he would respond to my voice amongst the crowd.

And finally the imposter has been outed. We knew she was not you, Carrie! Although many can try, there can only be one original.

The reason I asked you to come with me to this show?

That is 4 by my count. You really had to much wine. Hopefully its all out of the system now though.

However, I am still in a conundrum. Some people in this very studio know which the wrong door is. In fact if one is to assume that Ms. Fisher while under the influence of the drink did in fact KNOW which door was wrong that our excellent math problem advantage of 2/3 has been nullified. This is because the original pick was likely not random at all but chosen with intent. Then again this is all under the assumption that our previous contestant had crooked dealings with Mr. Monty and his ilk.

So the question is, with all of us suspecting the original selector had foreknowledge, did they put the poisoned wine where we would most suspect it or would least suspect it.

Too much wine indeed.

Mr. Locke- You never responded to my post on the bus. I specifically told you that I was going to ask you to come with me to Montys show so we could chat. I am upset that you hardly opened your mouth when I heard that I could no longer invite people. You say you do not trust me yet have never provided your own reasons for this. Why not tell me this on the bus, rather than waste everyone's time now as well as the entire point of me inviting you here? This said, I still do not think you are one of the ones who would ruin our trip. But I find your action with the lack of any conversation about it baffling.

Mr Godwin- What are your opinions about the doors? Where has Mr. Monty hidden the cash prize?

^by this point Talilan has clarified he has no extra info. Giant paragraph on firing discussion even though you don't think ckd is scum. Ask Thok his opinion, nothing from you.

Well Clarence, I thought you saw the good in everybody, yet your telling me she was evil? No bell rings for you.

But that is not what is important. What IS important is whether the correct door is number 1 or number 2. If the drunken Carrie was as you say, which door is correct in your opinion?

Yes, the correct door is number 1 or 2, what do YOU think?

-->Insert 2 day lurk here<--

We have a go. This just in, the entire state of kentucky (KY) is going to be lynched. Heh.

vote door #1

I figure we were single faked and not doubled faked. I do indeed believe we were trying to be led astray.

Here you mess up a vote when Door 1 is at L-2. Then MrJellyLee votes for it hours later and you magically reappear to correct your "mistake" for the hammer.

Please explain to me anywhere in there that you contributed to the discussion of which door was correct.

As far as your condorcet point, I'm not too worried about that with this group considering that we are the minority right now.

[VP Baltar]

To say I contributed nothing is a fallacy.

How is it fallacious? I asked you to point out one thing you did to help toward the decision on stage. You are now deflecting from answering the truth (nothing) by saying that you selected the people to go on stage, therefore you were more interested in figuring out their alignments.

Hmm, well that is interesting. Let's take a look at something in your linked post:

I would venture to say that it is even MORE imperative to get on screen decisions correct rather than off screen lynches.

Well, hey there! Explain your scene 2 play given that statement.

Also, why did you say you "still" want me to respond to that post specifically when I don't recall you asking me to before. If you did, please point it out to me.

My analysis of your post, I disagree that the discussion of a potential cult was stupid. The only way I could see you believing that is if you think ckd was lying about the Screen Guild Mafia...and I'm pretty sure you said you think he is town.

I also don't agree that lynches aren't as important as on screen decisions. I can see where you are coming from, but I think they are both very important. Eliminating the scummiest players (even in the case of Yos where he flipped town) helps town immensly for endgame.

Furthermore if the Assistant producer can maintain anonymity and be put into endgame that is a huge advantage for us as we have a person that needs to be CCed or be cleared.

I don't understand what you are saying here...though I agree that the AP needs to remain anonymous for now.

[VP Baltar]

People on stage seem to be getting quite anxious. I think we should start getting serious about a lynch (at least in terms of reaching a concensus) so we don't get caught with our pants down and allow people can use it as an excuse later.

[VP Baltar]

Seriously! I was taken aback when both Gaspar and Sotty said that Star is obvtown. wtf?

[VP Baltar]

well, I'm ok with the stuntman pic going up, but at the same time I'm not against a MJ or hewitt lynch.

Hewitt I keep going back and forth on because there is some honesty in his posts, but I really really really hate the arguments against Thesp because they are just like "here's some random posts that I think aren't good, therefore he's scum". It's really hollow scumhunting, and I don't even agree that a majority of the ones posted are useless. Now the ckd selection argument is being brought up as a scum point, and I disagree with that as well. If I was the director, I would logically assume there was going to be a stuntman to pull someone off stage if that was my plan.

So, yeah, either MJ lynch or hewitt lynch actually sits just fine with me at this point. I'm definitely not for a GnB lynch at this point. I could go for Gaspar, but I still can't make heads or tails of if he (and Talilan) are actually scum or just narcissitic town. I think Thok should be dead.

SL, can we get some thoughts from you, as you seemed to have dropped off the radar a bit.

[VP Baltar]

I still think the famous pic of Evil Knieveal crashing his motorcycle would convey the message

[VP Baltar]

photoshopping the words out of it now

[VP Baltar]

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/3512/0 ... ievell.jpg

OK?

[VP Baltar]

I agree, complete fluff and vaguery, just as he did during Scene 2.

I already answered your question about the condorect list. I don't think it hurts anything, especially right now when the majority of people are on screen.

I don't know what the hell you are talking about with "regular mafia game" vs. "theme game". We still have lynches to carry out, which is our main concern off screen. Also, I have shown that you have not been consistent in your own approach to this game given that you think the on stage choices are more important, but you did little to nothing to help in your scenes on stage.

Please die now scum.

[VP Baltar]

Send the pic Thesp. MJ, I have presented plenty of reasons to believe you are scum based on your play. I find your responses to these points unsatisfactory and even inconsistent with your strategy viewpoints. The fact that you keep deflecting from that and say that people are ignoring your setup discussion makes me even more confident you are scum. I guess there is a first for everything.

That being said, if we manage to get a stuntman, I'd support a Gaspar lynch.

[VP Baltar]

I'll be disappointed if Thesp leaves us high and dry. 70 hours to deadline.

[VP Baltar]

Don't worry, Thesp, if you think RL is getting better soon, I'll take your word for it. I don't want to lynch you anyhow.

I agree with hewitt that the people on stage don't get it. I think we should just lynch MJ and send the green light so the people on stage will have time to make their final choice. We have to take them into consideration here.

[VP Baltar]

well, the waiting isn't on me. I'm voting already. Just giving my opinion on it.

[VP Baltar]

we're just waiting on zu right? That is of course assuming that they can even do it from on stage if that is where the AP is at.

[VP Baltar]

also since I am a betting man, anyone want to take a wager that whatever the decision they pick, it will be the wrong one..

heh. yeah, I think there is probably undue influence on stage right now. There is so much confusion going on up there right now, it is difficult to sort out who is who. The only good thing is that once we find out what the incorrect choice is, we should be certain that scum were pushing for it.

[VP Baltar]

and go go go green light as soon as you get a chance thesp.

[VP Baltar]

This is me posting to make sure I don't end up being at risk for a prod or anything of that nature before deadline. Anxiously awaiting MJ flip and all that jazz.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, it was a very dramatic shift. I guess if they get the wrong outcome, it should be easy to see the scum from it.

[VP Baltar]

I think starkiss' switch in positions (which Kise wants to blame on dramonic even though he is the one posting apparently) looks the worst to me.

[VP Baltar]

lol, well that was useful.

[VP Baltar]

Does anyone have a strong opinion toward what the onstage decision should be and think I should stunt and speak for us as a group?

[VP Baltar]

I could remove someone we don't trust at least and prevent them from voting. Speak fast though, because we dont' have much time.

[VP Baltar]

Gaspar, zu faul and Starkiss are all scum. That is all.

[VP Baltar]

It should have been obvious that we needed a stuntman when there wasn't one appointed.

[VP Baltar]

What is your read on Pooky there Sotty?

[VP Baltar]

He assumed there was going to be a stuntman, Gaspar. Which was a reasonable assumption to make even though it didn't happen until too late. There was nothing scummy about it really, imo.

[VP Baltar]

But that still doesn't explain why ckd, or the rest of you, would think it would be a good idea to decide the lynch while the person isn't there. They can't discuss with you or answer your questions. It's the equivalent of having a legal trial where only the prosecution gets to present. How can you judge that kind of thing?

So you feel that MJ had no opportunity to answer for himself?

[VP Baltar]

I'm talking about how you guys wanted to decide which player from onstage you wanted to lynch and then planned to stunt them offstage to lynch them. That would be deciding the lynch when the person isn't there to defend themself.

Or am I misunderstanding?

Well, I think the general concensus early on was that the people everyone could generally agree on as the scummiest were all on stage and a lynching one of the off stage persons would have been sub-optimal.

I think you are reaching a bit to say that whoever may have been stunted off stage wouldn't have a chance to defend themselves because you have no idea what would have happened.

However, you should also note that we can only use the stuntman once per scene, so essentially the people off stage have to predecide who they think is scummiest without that person being there beforehand. I don't see any way to work around that.

@Sotty-well, I don't think it's a dependence upon the stuntman that was exposed because it shouldn't have happened that way at all. The AP should have been far more attentive in the scene and actually done his or her job.

[VP Baltar]

I'm never said it was good decision by ckd. I simply said that I don't agree it was scummy. Also, I think discussing who everyone thinks is scummy because it allows the scum to manipulate advocates, as I said before.

Also, read the whole thread before reaching any decisions. You making blanket statements such as "MJ was an easy target" after the fact without even reading the thread furthers the marks in your scummy column.

[VP Baltar]

For example, if we had a stuntman and didn't like the push toward pushing the button on scene 4, we could have stunted someone on camera to try to swing the vote.

I actually wanted to do this, but zu faul hammered before I had a chance to hear from anyone else off stage. I guess I shouldn't have waited to hear opinions.

I think people were advising against giving overall reads between scenes. I think that was a bad idea. We should be using the time between scenes to get everyone's POV and reach some kind of overall consensus.

Well, you're wrong. Clearly you didn't see how the scum pwn'd us on the Yos lynch because of this.

[VP Baltar]

MJ was an easy target because the hydra contained SSK and suffered from his taint even after it looks like he stopped posting. Any hydra with SSK is going to look bad, and that type of thing lingers.

SSK wasn't posting in it for a long time. Any other facts I can enlighten you on since you continue to not read the thread?

[VP Baltar]

Do as you please scums.

[VP Baltar]

Do as you please scums.

Sorry VP, as much as I like you, you're 2nd on my list right below DGB.

You pushed crone every bit as hard as she did, and I can't think of any logical reason for why you guys went that way on camera.

Surely that defines my entire play this game. You have become increasingly illogical as this game has moved on and I don't like it one bit.

[VP Baltar]

I think people were advising against giving overall reads between scenes. I think that was a bad idea. We should be using the time between scenes to get everyone's POV and reach some kind of overall consensus.

Well, you're wrong. Clearly you didn't see how the scum pwn'd us on the Yos lynch because of this.

I need you to hold my hand on this one. How does it help the town to keep our opinions to ourselves? Seriously, if there is a reason, lay it on me.

~elvis

I covered this already. It is fine for town to state their opinions, but it is not fine to say that "here are one or two players that are almost guaranteed lynches in the next scene". That really screwed us with the Yos situation because the scum manipulated that and made him advocate, thus spoiling the information we received on screen.

I don't think it's that hard of logic to follow actually. Getting too specific in pre-scenes is extremely beneficial to scum because it helps them when making their decisions pre scene. Keeping it more nebulous before the scenes start gives the town a better chance out of the gate.

As far as your argument about MJ goes, I have no problem calling weaksauce on it. How does SSK posting very early in the game spoil the hydra for the rest of the game? That makes no sense whatsoever. My predecessor seemed to behave with a mental impairment at times, but I don't think that ruined my player slot.

Your argument that you saw Sajin fakeclaim once as town doesn't hold up either. You base your entire meta of him on that one incident? I fake claimed once as town. Do you think I'm a horrible player who is an "easy target"?

[VP Baltar]

Gaspar, i think i have said numerous times in this game who i think is scum...perhaps you need to finish reading before you post again.

QFT

[VP Baltar]

we're just waiting on zu right? That is of course assuming that they can even do it from on stage if that is where the AP is at.

well zu has posted...sort of thought that was the reason we hadnt had a stuntman yet..at any rate.

unvote, vote MafiaJin

VP and CKD, why were you publicly speculating that Zu_Faul is the Assistant Producer?

How, in any way, shape, or form, is this helpful to the town?

Ah, that's not what happened. I was pointing out that it wasn't going to happen and ckd clarified that even further by pointing out that he had already posted. Funny you want to point that out directly after you say it's not useful to discuss the AP at this point.

[VP Baltar]

I have not seen a good explanation from anyone (I'm looking at you, VP Baltar) why we should keep our thoughts/reads private during the pre-scene time.

You don't need my permission to do as you please. It has been explained multiple times in various places in the thread (which I still don't know if you have read or not). If you don't like my reasoning, I don't really care. I'm not your jesus and I'm not preventing you from putting your thoughts out there.

I don't know if it is Glork's play before you got here or what, but I find your player slot extremely frustrating because you just don't seem to contribute much beneficial to the overall conversation. Your argument about ckd is stupid. Glork's fishing for the AP after denouncing it is stupid. Glork's playing the "hero", as Pooky puts it, is indeed scummy. The endless bickering with Talilan is not only useless, but has essentially killed the enthusiasm of the town any time you two are in the same thread. Frankly I think both of you need to be deadened with the utmost haste because at least one of you is probably scum and the other is a pock mark on the face of this town's ability to find scum.

[VP Baltar]

Here's a hint Tal, your walls, spamming and attacking anyone who presents a case against you as "obv. scum" isn't helpful at all. Your snarky remarks are not helpful. You should accept that you have played horribly thus far and be working to correct your play if you'd actually like to be a help to the town. If not, then please go quietly into that goodnight and stop wasting our time. I pretty much feel that if either you or Gaspar are town and make it to endgame, then the town is screwed.

[VP Baltar]

You just can't win with certain towns, they're just composed of too many stubborn/incompetent/ severely hypocritical players.

So, your assessment of many players finding your playstyle anti-town and unhelpful is that everyone else must be "stubborn/incompetent/severely hypocritical"?

and policy-lynching MafiaSSK and saying "oh hehe stop acting anti-town and we'll stop lynching you" isn't being clever, it's just being incompetent

^This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. You strawman an entire day of debate into very biased paraphrased assesment and say people are scum for it. I can't even begin to explain how awful of a mode of play that is or how inaccurate your assessment of the lynch was.

We had very limited choices on who we could lynch because ckd made an error in judgement and the AP failed to do his or her job. MJ did act scummy during the game and was not being helpful, nor was he consistent to his own play or answering legitimate concerns put to him. There was nothing policy lynch about it. The only other person I would have considered lynching was hewitt, who had basically done exactly the same thing during the game as MJ. Nobody was going "hehe stop acting anti-town", so stop painting it like we didn't take the lynch seriously and try to determine who was the most scummy out of our available choices. If you want to criticize our lynch decision, then do so on legitimate grounds of who you felt would have been a better lynch for valid reasons. Otherwise, you should indeed disengage.

[VP Baltar]

I think that elmoyos was already probably going to die because people thought they were scum, not because they got put in as advocate. I'm sure the advocate thing didn't help, but I don't think it was the bulk of the reason why they got lynched. I don't think that the town "got played" because they gave their scumlists or were scum hunting like normal.

You're not understanding me. I'm not saying that Yos was lynched because he was made advocate. I'm saying that the town decided in pre-scene that Yos was definitely going to be the lynch for the day, and the scum took advantage of that by appointing him advocate. This hurt the town because the info given to Yos essentially became null because no one felt they could trust him. Is that more clear why I think being too direct about it is a bad idea?

Strategizing before the advocates and choices are appointed gives the chance to the scum to work their plan around those plans. I am willing to give a general list of people who I think are scummy before the scene, but it is going to be broad and not say specifically "I want this person lynched in the next scene". We don't have the opportunity to strategize around the scum's plans, so why should we give them the opportunity?

Just noting how far your head is stuck up ckd's behind. I noticed last scene how he said maybe he should just be lynched because people are suspicious and you were all "no, ckd, we loooove you don't die!"

I don't care if you don't like it. I feel he is town. I don't want to lynch players who I think are more likely to be town than others. If you want to call that buddying, then be my guest. I make no apologies for not lynching someone I think is prob town.

Which is the same thing that happens in any game of mafia. I don't think we should stray from the normal way we play. Hiding suspicions is not helpful.

I can agree with you on this somewhat, and I think that wasn't a great point I was making, but this also isn't like a normal mafia game. I'm mostly concerned about the scum appointing advocates that are going to be the most harmful to us on-stage. I'm willing to revise my position if I sounded too hardline before. People can and should discuss who is scummy and for what, but I think it needs to be in a
somewhat broad way and not turn into what happened before the Yos lynch where everyone came to the preconceived conclusion that Yos was the lynch for the day.

[VP Baltar]

Hi fearmongering.

Frankly what was ignored in scene 3, and what is being ignored now is that if the advocates lie to us, we are bestowed with the ability to make them answer for it in the next scene... of course if we lynch them first and then make a choice based on distrust that we have not yet proved, then we make both a bad choice and lynch a townie.

... yay fear.

- Zachrulez

So your argument is that it's best to give the scum the advantage in the onstage scenes because we can just lynch them afterward, even though the onstage is far more important to endgame. That makes no sense whatsoever.

[VP Baltar]

I thought we don't have advocates anymore? Is that going to change, because last scene we didn't.

VP, I think that the benefit of getting the town discussing and coordinated is worth the risk that scum might strategize around us. Deciding to have no strategy and no coordination is not exactly a way to win a game.

~elvis

We have advocates in scene 5 and 7, not in scene 6. So, in pre scene six we can go full bore strategize.

You are completely wrong in the other cases. Keep trying to push it though, just another reason to lynch you before endgame. I'm not participating in any strategizing session on how the scene should play out. I'll gladly give a broad based list of who I think is scum though.

[VP Baltar]

How many scum advocates have we actually had? I only know of one for a fact, and he was a dead man walking before he was even made an advocate.

See, you even bringing this up is benefiting scum, but hey, I guess when you are trying to feign utter cluelessness about a game, you might as well go all out.

How is onstage far more important to endgame?

Because it is probably unlikely that we are going to lynch all of the scum and get our best endgame, so we may as well get as many decisions on stage correct as possible. You are aware of how the onstage choices impact endgame, aren't you?

I'd like to point out that VP agreed about Glork playing the hero and that it was so horribly scummy. VP has a history in this game of supporting everyone else's bad ideas, sort of buddying and encouraging anti-town ideas. Whether it's "glork playing the heor is scmmy" or agreeing with ckd about everything (like not strategizing, or trying to put only town people in the lynch pool).

Yes, I have stated multiple times that I think one of you and Talilan is scum and I'm more inclinced to believe it is you. For the 118th time, read the thread. Also, your blanket accusations don't bother me in the least. But keep pouting about being called out on your scumminess. Glork has indeed severely inflated his own self importance this game. Pooky is right about that. You keep pushing the scummy idea of pre-strategizing even though I've given you legitimate reasons not to. I've yet to hear you say any specific reason why we SHOULD do it, other than you think it would be "beneficial".

Also, where did I agree with ckd about "putting only town people in the lynch pool"? I said it was a stupid idea several times. MOAR NOT READING THREAD PLZ.

Is my point getting across yet?

No, but you're digging a nice scummy grave. Keep it up!

People who I think need to be lynched: Starkiss, Gaspar, hewitt, Talilan, Thok

Neutral: GnB, zu_Faul, sottyrulz, Pooky

Prob town: Thesp, ckd, Shadowlurker

That's my opinion and ckd can do with it what he will when he is making his choice for the next scene.

[VP Baltar]

In fact you were saying ckd is so town and you didn't want to lynch him.

I didn't want to lynch him. What the hell is your point?

I asked him his reasoning for doing it because it probably wasn't the smartest decision to make. He gave his answers. What else could I do about it at that point? I don't think he is scum and did it on purpose. He thought for sure there was going to be a stuntman. Even if you are claiming he is scum and did it on purpose, he wouldn't have known there wasn't going to be a stuntman to still bring a scum off stage for a lynch (in which case, leaving all town players off stage would be a bad idea) I'm not going to waste time calling it a stupid decision when he already knew it was. So, yeah, get over it because you aren't actually making any sort of point that I can see.

Also, where is all this awesome strategizing you were planning on doing during the pre-scene, since I am so clearly wrong. You haven't even indicated who you think is scum or anything about keeping people on and off stage.

[VP Baltar]

And kept apart from VP Baltar if that's not possible.

I'm the stuntman. Pretty sure I should stay off stage.

[VP Baltar]

You're right, it's DGB's fault the AP didn't do it at any point during the day despite being asked to do so many many times.

[VP Baltar]

I'm pointing out that you are arguing about unnecessary things that you are wrong about to start with anyhow. Meanwhile, we haven't seen your scum/advisement list for ckd either, since you too said I was being illogical on the strategizing issue. I would think that would be your top priority.

[VP Baltar]

That you are scum. Probably ckd too.

Ok Talilan.

I've been pressuring the people I think are scum. If you can't figure out who that is then maybe it is YOU who is not reading.

The fact that you can't even type out a collection of your reads on every player as I just did shows me that you are scum who isn't even sure of the approach you are taking. The only people I have seen you actually doing anything toward are Talilan all game and now apparently ckd (with me because I think he is town). I'm asking you to give me your scum list because you weren't scum hunting for the last long while, you were on screen. I don't see what is difficult about that.

Seriously, you expect me to catch up on a bunch of the thread that I haven't read, plus fight with you all day, and be able to strategize? All in one or two days? It's not humanly possible. Maybe beans can do it, but not me.

1)Glad you admitted you haven't read the thread and yet are making incomplete accusations at people

2) You started and continued to perpetuate a "fight" with me, so don't put that on me

3) now with all that time you can strategize!

4) Profit

Also, last time Glork talked about breaking the game everyone told him he was scum trying to play the hero. You are being so unfair, and so hypocritical.

Yep, we're still waiting for that game to be broken wide open, so cry a river about how unfair I'm being.

I object to any plan where you pack the offstage with a group of your toadies

so now you are expanding your accusations even further to the people off stage because they think you are scum! Let me ask you this, how many of us off stagers do you think are scum?

VP, given your role, which would you prefer..going on stage or off?

which is more important right now for us to win...lynching or chosing correctly onstage and why?

Right now I think we should be focusing on winning the onstage game and get the best outcome possible for us. We have only lynched one scum and only have three scenes left. I believe there are more than three scum left, so I don't even think we can get our best outcome that way.

Whether to leave me off stage or not is a harder question. If you have a town read on me, then the decision to put me on stage is beneficial because I think you should put as many town players on stage as possible while still keeping a balance so we can get good outcomes there.

On the other hand I think those of us off stage had it figured out that the scum were controlling the on screen decision in the last scene and we could have turned that around if I would have stunted Gaspar or Starkiss and voted the opposite of what they were pushing. With less town people on stage, it was obvious that the scum were pushing the negative choice. I'm sort of kicking myself for not just stunting on, but I didn't feel right making that decision on my own without at least hearing from one other off stage person. Live and learn I guess. If I were to stay off stage in the next scene, I could use my ability to sway the vote if we need to at the last minute, as we needed to do in the previous scene.

I know that is vague in some ways, but those are the benefits I see to each of them and I'll leave you the rest to decide.

[VP Baltar]

But seriously VP, where did you get Obvtown from there? Over reaching much?

Ok, I'll concede you that one. You only said town. I was just very shocked that anyone would find his play townish at all I guess and went overboard.

What about Pooky and GaB?

I have them both listed as neutral in my list of everyone. I'll get more specific for you, however. Pooky hasn't contributed a lot so that is hard to read in general. He has made bad choices on stage, which is scummy because it is hard to read him anyway and determine if that is coming from scum or not. However, I really like his most recent attack on Gaspar for "faking" it with his "imma crack the game" business.

GnB really really felt town to me early on and I put a lot of trust in that read. I felt she was being very helpful to the town during the early days. I felt she was making decent arguments when we were onstage together, but this clearly proved to be wrong. Still could have come from town and her suspicions were fairly consistent during that time. However, I would agree with you that her play in the last scene was scummy and non-committal in a lot of ways. I feel better about her pushing hard for something and being wrong, but when she tip toes around a decision and doesn't take a firm stance, that really starts to worry me that my initial read of town might be wrong. Downgraded to neutral for now.

What? Explain please.

Calling star town makes no sense to me. Coming in and saying I'm scum because I voted Crone without seemingly taking much else into consideration makes no sense to me. I did give a reason why I voted the Crone and was rather forthcoming about it, so I don't like you painting it as if it was an unreasoned decision.

Part of the problem might be the difference in you and zach's personalities too. I think you take things slower and he tries to be more forceful. The juxtaposition can be jarring.

do you think that I need to read the whole thread to be able to comment on anything?

No I don't, but when you are making accusations about things that are clearly uninformed because you didn't read the thread, and you do it multiple times, it starts to get annoying. I'm sorry if I'm being short with you about it, but I think it is very easy to read fully first and reach an informed opinion first before you start calling people scum.

If there are four scum left (so 5 total), we only need to get two out of the remaining four lynch to trigger the best endgame scenario. Even if we started with six scum, we can get the best endgame by hitting every remaining lynch correctly. Seven scum out of 20 seems too large, IMHO.

Ok, that is true. I wasn't looking at it properly. If there are four scum left, then I think we have a chance of lynching two out of the next three scenes and getting our best endgame. If there are five scum left, I'm not so certain. Getting a perfect lynch record on the last three scene is going to be a bit more challenging, imo, since there is no margin for error.

If we lean toward the side of caution, then I stick by my original assesment that we need to be focusing on the onscreen decisions and take what we can get.

I think a mix is still going to be important no matter which direction we go, but leaning one way or the other slightly probably needs to happen.

I think this is a good issue for most people to weigh in on without getting too specific.

@everyone-at this juncture, do you think the on-stage decisions or off-stage lynches are more important? You don't need to really get into your reasoning unless you think people are missing something vital, but just pick one. Ckd can then see the informal poll and decide if he thinks it needs to be factored in.

I think I'm still leaning that the decisions are more important.

[VP Baltar]

I want you to explain, in your own words, how you feel I am "playing the hero," and how that is scummy.

You have been very vocal this game, even to the point of saying you are going to "crack the game". I've yet to see you really do a lot successfully or crack the game, ergo you're playing the hero (though perhaps town leader is a more accurate term) and not delivering. Much like Talilan (though in a less obnoxious way) you seem to be inflating your own imporance more than a bit and it is a good scum strategy because if they feel that its true in any way, they are going to be more hesitant to lynch you.

Let me ask you a yes or no question for now, do you still think you can crack this game wide open?

[VP Baltar]

I'm fine with you waiting. I don't even really wanted to discuss it. Just checking if you were staying by it.

[VP Baltar]

Gaspar, why did you say Talilan was suspicious of MrJellyLee. Skimminig over his iso, I don't see anything of that nature. If I'm missing it, please quote or direct me to post numbers.

[VP Baltar]

What posts are you looking at specifically, EK. I want an outline of why you think Talilan's switch was for no apparent reason.

[VP Baltar]

Calling that scummy is just dumb. Not only because it resulted in choosing the correct choice (so it's basically a "too townie" attack)

It was just frakking highlighted that you used the same thing against Gaspar earlier.

It's not necessarily "illogical" to attack you on it. If you swapped for no reason after the wrong choice was all but guaranteed, then it does imply that you could have inside info and were simply trying to look good. Given how much you are trying to toot your own horn for choice to not push the button, its a possibility. I want to hear what the specifics of Gaspar's arguments are.

[VP Baltar]

I do think the "accident" by Talilan was important. People seemed to interpret it as saying that the Crone was the much preferred choice off stage. What I think is important is the interpretations of people after it was posted. I need to look back at the specific quotes, but if my memory is correct, hewitt and GaB made it sound like a certainty.

So my question to the crone voters -- even if you distrusted elmo/yos, why didn't you listen to ckd? And why didn't ckd listen to himself?

Well, first, I don't agree that Glork made a good case why Yos-scum wouldn't lie in that situation, and had he been lying, then Crone was the obvious choice. If we chose to disregard his information entirely and go only with ckd's information, then I agree with you. However, the situation didn't happen in a vacuum. Yos was nudge town toward the Mother and I trusted ckd's info that it either needed to be the Mother or the Crone. The obvious choice in that situation is to pick the Crone because a scum Yos was going to get lynched and would have wanted us to pick the wrong choice, and would have been nudging the town toward the wrong choice before his inevitable demise.

[VP Baltar]

I am quite certain that StarKiss is scum. That scene only adds to his scumminess, which has been continual throughout the game.

Give me a bit to look at hewitt and GaB's reactions to Talilan's "accident" because it does seems likely that at least one of them is scum. From my memory, GaB started in on it being a certitude off stage and then hewitt corraborated when SL and I asked about it.

Pooky's vote is basically unreadable, and even when asked to clarify he is not helpful.

[VP Baltar]

ok, here and catching up.

any reason you wanted to switch with gaspar at first?

I figured switching with either of them would be interesting because then we could see if they would lie or not. I generally feel a little more hesitant about Gaspar, so I thought he might be a good idea, but seemed like people still wanted Talilan, which I was also fine with.

Can someone give me a very brief cliffnotes of what has happened off stage before I reread?

[VP Baltar]

Pooky is dead and Gaspar was lynched? What happened to Pooky?

[VP Baltar]

ok, also..

I DIDNT PUT ORBOTS THERE...funny he was also chosen as adovcate..

what do you think about that VP?....and your thoughts that Orbots really didnt want you to switch...wonder why?

Interesting, but could be a scum gambit to try and get us to not trust the info. I'd say the best choice is still tequilla and then lynch MO if it's wrong.

If Goofballs is giving an accurate description of hewitt's voting patterns and Gaspar flips scum, then hewitt needs to die shortly thereafter.

Home from work now, so I'll be working on my reread.

(and I will sorely miss my role GB. I think I really found the heart of the character. *sigh*)

[VP Baltar]

I don't know what the theory behind the secret words is, but if you want me to claim mine now before I get to my reread, say so.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, caught up and will try to get some thoughts up this evening.

Here's a preview: hewitt is scum (again).

[VP Baltar]

I'm telling you right now, I'm not good with number puzzles. They aren't my thing and don't count on me for much in that regard.

[VP Baltar]

Talilan, I'd like your thoughts on who is scum now that Gaspar has flipped town and Pooky has flipped scum.

[VP Baltar]

GnB, same question as above.


Also, the flip makes me think hewitt is less likely scum. He has been pushing for pooky's lynch for a good portion of the game in a way that doesn't exactly look like scum bussing. Need to do more readjusting given new information.

[VP Baltar]

Discord amongst the hydras...again.

I bet Pooky was town

not tooo surprised about Pooks

Now, a quick glance over your iso shows you didn't generaly voice a strong opinion about Pooky either way. I can somewhat understand this given his general absence, so maybe you can explain why you're "not too surprised" about his flip. The previous comment you gave about Pooky was intentionally vague, ie when you were giving your scumlist you called him "delectable".

[VP Baltar]

Also, the flip makes me think hewitt is less likely scum. He has been pushing for pooky's lynch for a good portion of the game in a way that doesn't exactly look like scum bussing.

Here we fundamentally disagree. I've been scum enough to recognize bus'ing when I see it.

That was bus'ing. Pooky was a nice safe place to park his vote when there is no chance for a lynch of his buddy, while everyone else is lynching a townie. Great way to get fake town cred. When I called him on it he baited me with a fleeting Starkiss vote, but I'm not fooled.

Especially after hewitt quick hammered Gaspar before anyone could change their minds. Gaspar is a big fish. Can't let him slip away.

But then nooooobody ever believes me. I'm like a prophet in the desert.

If his desire to lynch pooky had only occured in the last scene, I would most definitely agree with you, but he had been one of the only players calling pooky out consistently since very early in the game. I don't think scum would intentionally draw that much attention to their partner's massive lurk if no one else was. There is no benefit to it really.

I still want you to answer the question about scum reads now after the flips that I put to Talilan.

I am very fine with town picking on stage folks beforehand. My thoughts are we should put mostly town up there. Will try and get my list up today.

[VP Baltar]

I don't believe that scum get a pick. That's a ridiculous amount of control they would have over the game if they did. Something else must have taken place there.

[VP Baltar]

I put it down to having essentially no prior knowledge of Glork's playstyle.

Weren't you making all kinds of meta arguments about how Glork wouldn't do this or that? I need to look back, but I'm pretty sure you were.

Furthermore, I don't buy the whole 'oh geez, I feel bad now argument'. I wanted glork lynched too and don't really feel all that bad about it, but I expect a townie to be able to reevaluate the game and move on. The facts of the case seem to be that you never even considered the POSSIBILITY that he could have been town, which is something that any good town should do. You're going to be wrong in the game of mafia, and should be able to adjust your stances when you are.

I really hope you don't think you can just get all sheepish for the rest of the game and skate by on apologies.

[VP Baltar]

The hewitt/Pooky interaction by itself is not a scumtell. Not even close to a scumtell. It was voting Pooky when there wasn't a chance in hell that he'd be lynched, combined with the actions during the rest of the day. VP Baltar, maybe you are overlooking the circumstances of the vote switch to Gaspar, then the bizarre Starkiss vote after I pointed out hewitt voting shenanigans, followed by a Gaspar quickhammer?

Yeah, I've already agreed with you that his voting yesterday looks scummy. There is no denying that. The problem I have is that you have to look at his suspicions over the course of the whole game, not just one day in a vacuum. He was consistently after Pooky and I don't think that can really be said about any other players (at least from my memory). Sure, it could be a scum ploy to gain town cred, but I think that is less likely considering how little suspicion pooky was garnering on his own. I don't think scum would actually push a partner's lynch when it isn't being mentioned by other players. Iso him and let me know how you feel.

What has me worried is that Pooky and you were pretty friendly, as was pooky and Talilan. Now that we have another scum flip, it is time to start drawing connections or determining who would be town based on the flip.

Unfortunately, pooky's flip wasn't as informative as many other players would have been, but we have to work with what we have I suppose.

Same goes for Talilan and now potentially pushing Thok or Thesp. Apart from Gaspar, those are two players that Pooky seemed like he would have been happy to see lynched. Again, could be bussing, but it needs to be considered.

1) What do you think of CKD's offer/sacrifice?

It is tough to say. I just finished a game where ckd wanted to sacrifice himself as town, though the circumstances were different. If he's town, I can understand where he is coming from and would probably do the same thing myself. I really want us to lynch scum this next scene because I think that could potentially break the scum team's veil of smoke they have been able to hide behind thus far, but CKD really does need to die to prove his innocence. It's a tough call.

2) Do you believe in the Screen Mafia Guild and why/why not?

That seems entirely dependent on CKD's flip if we haven't lynched one of them.

I want to believe. There were 2 kills during pre-scene 3. Need to know whether it was two anti-town factions, or Scientologist + other killing role.

What other killing role do you think is floating around? What about the theory that the scum get a kill for every positive choice we make?

Ah, just realized, now that pooky is dead it might be informative to go back and look at the scumlists of those night killed persons. If pooky is there, other scum members might be as well. Note to self.

What are people's thoughts on mass name claim?

[VP Baltar]

I had you pegged as scum and thought by doing that (you guys just have to see the game) that I would help the town nail scum. I also didnt figured you wouldnt take the bet (as scum) so it was a safe call.

Um, I wasn't scum in that game. So, you didn't have me pegged as anything.

re: your Orbots theory--one problem is this, why would the scum choose to send Orbots over other players on their team? He is pretty universally seen as town as far as I can see and "sacrificing" him doesn't make a lot of sense when he would be the ideal scum to send to endgame.

Also, do you pick alternates at all for the onstage scenes? Was Orbots one of your alternates if you do?

[VP Baltar]

ugh, are we going to really go down this route again ckd? I don't remember everything in a 100 page thread. My apologies for being so inferior.

[VP Baltar]

lol, we'll lynch you. You don't have to try that hard.

[VP Baltar]

ckd is the lynch for sure. I think the AP should wait and see who is offstage before assigning a stuntman, that way the scum can't dupe us and put ckd on stage where we can't get at him.

I still think ckd will flip town, but he is right about not having that cloud hanging around.

Thus far SL, Thok and GnB all claim to be math people and I find them to be mostly townish (SL especially), so I think they are good picks to go onstage.

[VP Baltar]

whoa whoa whoa...you lynch me becuase you think i am scum..not because of policy or a "black cloud"..you two just gave yourself and out tomorrow if I dont flip scum. and that is bullshit.

DGB and VP...top two scum picks please.

Your lynch is a policy lynch. Whether I am inclined to believe you or not, it needs to happen. It's called strategy.

It is quite ridiculous for you to say "policy lynch me please" and then call people scummy for agreeing with you.

Of course, this is probably you now trying to back your way out of it since people agreed with you.

Ckd, you're starting to get into the same exact mode you did in Prozac's game, and I'm telling you right now that it's not helpful to town or particularly good at finding scum. Use your head.

[VP Baltar]

where did I say "people policy lynch me"?

So, you're saying you weren't proposing your lynch as one of policy? That makes no sense if you know you're town.

[VP Baltar]

I think Sotty and Starkiss should be switched. Pretty certain Sotty is town and the more town onstage, the better.

[VP Baltar]

If you're so concerned about it, then switch yourself with Sotty. That way you can scumhunt and lynch whoever you think is scummiest.

[VP Baltar]

I think the onstage game is more important. I have been stating that opinion for some time. Also, starkiss is most likely scum, so why not leave him off stage where he will be lynchable? I don't think our concerns are mutually exclusive.

[VP Baltar]

Don't get me wrong, Tal. Lynching scum is important and if we could eliminate the less high profile scum, that would be even better. However, I just don't trust in the town's ability to lynch correctly in these final two scenes. Call me a debbie downer, but it seems to me that we have more control over the on screen decisions and should be doing all we can to get the best possible endgame we can.

If we lynch scum, great. If not, a +1 in the next two scenes still puts us in strong position.

Re: your scum list. Orbots couldn't be any more town, imo. If he flipped scum, I would be completely flabergasted. zu faul is probably town as well. Thesp I can probably agree with you on. I go back and forth on him, but every time he goes on these mega lurks I can't help but feel uneasy about that player slot.

Preview edit: I don't think you should lurk and try for modkill ckd. It's gaming the game and something I personally would considered unsportsmanlike.

[VP Baltar]

I approve of ShadowLurker's stuntman plan. The other important part of having as many town as possible onstage for the next scene is that scum are probably going to lie about the answers their questions. Once we get truthful answers from as many people as possible, then we simply need a majority for the vote and it doesn't matter if there's a scumbag or two on camera.

Also, I don't believe the stuntman should be appointed prescene, so as to prevent any scum shennanigans.

[VP Baltar]

For referance below:

Since these seem to be all the rage..

Bagel Eating Cowfrog (hasdgfas/dahill1/Shanba)

- Protown duh

curiouskarmadog

- Was leaning town before this new info came out. Have to think this over now so unsure at the moment.

elmosaurian (Yosarian2/Elmo)

- Heavy leaning scum

Gaspar (Glork)

- Slight scum gut but no solid evidence

GoofballsAndBaloons (DrippingGoofball/BridgesAndBaloons)

- Protown

hewitt

- Neutral to slightly Scummy

MafiaJin (MafiaSSK/Sajin)

- Neutral to slightly Scummy

Mighty Orbots (Papa Zito/Zorblag)

- Protown

MrJellyLee (MrBuddyLee/petroleumjelly)

, replacing Seraphim S1 - Leaning Protown

Panzerjager

- Pretty Scummy

PookyTheMagicalBear, replacing Rawr Hydra S2

- Neutral. I got somewhat protown vibes from Kore but Pooky's done nothing.

ShadowLurker

- Protown

sottyrulez (Sotty7/Zachrulez)

- Leaning slightly more than average protown

StarKiss (Starbuck/Kise/dramonic)

- Neutral to slightly Scummy

Talilan (Talitha/ortolan)

- Slightly leaning town (although I really wish they would stop getting into page long arguments)

Thesp

- slightly to moderately scummy

Thok

- slightly to moderately scummy

VP Baltar

, replacing ThebladethatkilledMufasa S2 - Neutral to slightly protown, didn't like TBTKM although VP has done better

This was posted slightly before he was night killed, so I'm willing to go out on a limb and say given how early it was in the game and the fact that I didn't think he was excessively protown to the point that he'd be a number one target, he may have been somewhat close to correct with his suspicions (though he was, like many of us, wrong about Gaspar and Elmosaurian).

I tried to get something similar close to when MrJellyLee died, but he wasn't as comprehensive. He was calling Gaspar town though. And he was strongly opposed to ckd's "two scumgroups" theory.

[VP Baltar]

I did not feel they were "super protown". At least not in the way that I did, and largely still do, about say Orbots and Sottyrulz.

Of course it's WIFOM, but I don't think that's a reason to NOT look at these sorts of things and see if anything stands out.

MJL was also riding Pooky's case a bit at one point about the chronic lurking.

[VP Baltar]

I still think the maximum number of town people need to start the scene on stage. Starkiss is probscum and should not start the day onstage.

[VP Baltar]

If not you (as you are my preference), then Orbots. We haven't hardly even used the sound bytes this game and I think he's town as well. I suppose that might be better since you can still get a job.

Speaking of the signals, do we need to devise anything beforehand?

[VP Baltar]

I am so far behind in this game guys and I really apologize. Vacation + other games is kicking my ass right now.

I am hoping I will have some time to read up and get thoughts out there today, but I can't make guarantees.

That being said, unless something dramatic has happened in the last few pages, I have a strong feeling that DGB is scum and is the one who lied in the last scene.