Webcomic Wars Mafia: D7- Be Thankful I'm Not The Author

[Percy]

/confirmz!

[Percy]

Vote: Tzeentch

Slaanesh is far superior!

Lamont_Cranston, what does that picture mean? Why did you post it?

[Percy]

Its a bell. I posted it to ring in the new game! WOOT! 25 people baby!!!

You had to make me google it, huh?

It's a Tao Cup, which apparently rings at 289.44Hz and is therefore(?!) "tuned to the planetary tone of Mars". It'll set you back €169. It doesn't appear on the first 23 pages of Google Image Search under the search term "bell".

So, um, what the fuck?

Also, I have no idea why you're defending Vino, especially after expressing initial approval of Fishy's first post.

Unvote
Vote:Lamont_Cranston

Also, guys, seriously, meta is usually bullshit. I don't know why people are talking about it.

Also Fishy is town.

Um, why?

I've played one game with Fishy, and he was excellent scum. Whilst random "I'm voting you because you're scum LOL" is a time-honoured way of celebrating the random vote phase, I don't see what's to be accomplished by statements like these.

Don't you understand that when you come from Australia, all those little countries just sort of meld together!? We're all by ourselves in this massive fat country with noone around so you need to expect us to assume that two nationalities like Dutch and Danish from sort of the same part of the world that sort of sound the same are essentially interchangable?

You're giving us Australians a bad name, guy! The Netherlands is awesome.
Might I convince you to walk to Perth while you're at it?

Fishy's argument is highly logical.

What argument? I can't see an argument he put forward before your post that could be described as "logical".

Also, WTFSpock.

[Percy]

Whoops, looked like a bell to me...

Uh huh. Sure.

Also, I have no idea why you're defending Vino, especially after expressing initial approval of Fishy's first post.

I have explained this. Please see my reply to him, it is quite clear.

Oh, I read your response. I just have no reason to believe you.

Kewl. Well you look super fun to play with and so I withdraw my support of your wagon.

Yeah, you 'clarified' this vague semi-scum statement later as well. I don't like it.

And walk to Perth? Don't you guys have transport infrastructure yet?

Heh, I'm from Sydney too. I was making fun at your lack of geographical knowledge.

[I'm currently in Canada, and I've had fun torturing Canadians with my Vegimite and telling them they should walk to Perth (after one remarked that we were a small little island), but to watch for the snakes and dropbears while they're at it.]

Deliberately lurking is not a proper "meta-playstyle".

Well, you've never played with Empking, so I suggest you check out his meta.

I do not like the look of the vino bandwagon, and I do not like the feel of the Lamont bandwagon; there is foul scum down there, or I am no guide. I will therefore take a path in the middle.

Some things about Lamont are worrying me, but I think they may possible be put down to over-enthusiasm.

I would also like to add my expression of concern over the way you phrased this. Please elaborate on what you don't like about the case against Lamont, and the case against Vino.

I suspect the vino wagon is designed to set Fishy up for a 1-2 mislynch.

Very interesting.

In what way? Please elaborate.

I hate posts like this. You can come back later and say "by interesting I meant I liked his point" if everyone thinks the silent speaker was on the money. You can also say "by interesting I meant I thought the silent speaker was wrong in what he said". It's anti-town at best.

2) Lurker hunting is a popular enough scum pastime that it's a weak scumtell (especially if the scum are active).

QFT. Hunting lurkers is the easiest thing for scum to do - whether they're town or scum, the scum love to go after lurkers. If they start posting, you can back off, and look pro-town for helping put pressure on another player to contribute. If they don't start posting, then when and if they get lynched, you either lose a non-contributing member from your team and look great (if the "lurker" was scum), or you have a great defense if they flip town. It really is a win-win for most scum.

Handling lurkers is hard, but what the fuck are we doing talking about lurkers before we hit page 20? Or Day 2 at the very least?

Lets see... the spock count is up to what, four? Five?

What?

Well it appears I have the

famous

Tar all pissed off at me.

...

Parts of your case are so astoundingly bad it makes me wonder why you would be reaching so hard...

Urgh. That first sentence was pretty terrible, but that weak quasi-OMGUS second sentence takes the cake.

I didn't know there were criteria that qualified potential lynch candidates other than "this player is likely to be scum". Elaborate, please.

Surely you know that very early in the game there is less to go on than we would have once the game progresses right? Why is the famous Tar wasting time with bad arguments like this??

Firstly, I hate it when players quote entire posts. It's really lazy. I hate it even more when they post their replies

inside

the quotation.

Still, your "famous" line is such bullshit. He asked for elaboration, which you didn't give. Your response was "Why are you even asking me this, oh glorious one?!", which is incredibly evasive.

Tar's point wasn't that bad, really. On the one hand, you're saying that the game is still young and there's nothing much to work from, but you're still trying to differentiate who should be lynched and why, and none of the reasons you stated were sufficiently linked to why you think they are scum.

1) Wrong: Correct answer is E: Wait a few days to make sure they're lurking, then investigate, vig, or deadline lynch them (preferably vig).

Says you. He needs to post now or be lynched -- the earlier the better.

What a terrible idea. You want to blow the entire first day to lynch Empking, because he hasn't posted anything of substance?

Let's look at some other players:

delathi - one random vote
Empking - one /confirm after the confirmation stage, one wagon-jumping post
Flameaxe - one random vote
hasdgfas - one semi-random vote
Head_Honcho - one random vote, one post with two (good) questions
Mufasa - Hadn't even posted when Empking "/confirm"ed (except to confirm), and has only posted a "wagon vote" on Lamont
qwints - one random vote
Santos - one post with questions, no votes.
SensFan - one serious votepost
Sironigous - Also hadn't even posted when Empking confirmed (except to confirm), and now one post opposing "policy lynches", no votes.
Timeater - one random vote
Tzeentch - one random vote
xRECKONERx -

no non-confirming posts

How, exactly, have you picked Empking out of this 13-player list? Enlighten me as to why you're willing to say Empking is definitely scum.

Ideally, everyone should be posting once per day with critical analysis of the game. That would be awesome. The point I'm making, though, is that there is no basis whatsoever for singling Empking out and calling for his blood. At all. Period.

Also, hunting lurkers

instead of scum

is becoming a pattern for you.

Thanks & /fixed.

Why thanks? How is that fixed?

Yes, lets pressure the guy who isn't here. I'm sure he will magically feel our votes on him and come rushing back. I mean the concept of wagoning a lurker to force him to talk seems... contradictory in and of itself. Although I admit I sometimes want to do it myself XD

The issue here is not only "how to deal with lurkers", but "do we have anyone who can be singled out as a lurker above others" as well.

The fact is, Empking has

not

generated the least content. He was tied for that before Emp's latest post, but now xRECKONERx is number one.

Also, lynching a lurker on Day 1 is retarded if there are other suspects around.

Finally, voting to put pressure on a lurker sometimes works. It's just not a good idea right now.

What was that acronym Tar used?

I've got my eye on you.

wagon vote

vote: L__C

FoS: Mufasa

If you're not going to contribute anything other than your vote to a wagon, it makes me think you're scum. Jumping on at the half-way mark is also a classic scum move.

@the silent speaker: mark who you're quoting.

Yeah a random bandwagon is designed for something. So exactly explain to me how this works? A town starts a wagon on another town and then a bunch of other town join it and somehow it's a setup for something?

So certain, are we? We know this wagon was started by town and jumped on by town, do we?

FOS: Korlash

Your initial statement implied that you thought both Vino and Fishy were town. How could you not see that?

However, Korlash did imply that the others "joining in" were town, which was not implied by you - in fact, the exact opposite. Hmmm.

SensFan's entire post is a lie.

FOS: SensFan

No, it's not. For the record, here is Sens' post:

Only thing scummier than Vino is L_C's blatant defense of Vino.

Vote: L_C

What exactly do you think is a 'lie'? Not just inaccurate, but somehow a scum attempt to manipulate the playerbase?

And the mere fact it's up to 8+ people kinda helps suggest some town jumped on it at some point.

Lamont is on 8 Votes. Vino is on 4. Your implication remains bizarre.

@Mod: I'm flying back to Australia (Canada is beautiful and awesome, by the way) tomorrow, so I will probably be unable to post until Monday. Apologies.

[Percy]

I would expect better arguments from an accomplished player with his reputation. The poor quality on some of them raises my suspicion.

The reason you think they are bad arguments is that they're directed at you. I haven't seen any other player even suggest that they think Tar's points are weak. In fact, they're pretty good, for the most part, and your reactions aren't.

I have queried Vino and found the accused link between him and Rofl to be false and thus the motivations for lynching him to be false.

The motivations for lynching him had nothing to do with this connection. You asked fishy this question, and he answered you.

I think it was a scum attempt to manipulate the playerbase because it did manipulate the playerbase. Look what happened right after: a big spike in Lamont voting.

As far as I can tell, there is no case on Vino. Fishy came out with a vote on him for no reason given, which by itself is perfectly fine, and a whole bunch of people jumped right in line with "yep, uh-huh, Fishy is wise." For Sens to say even now that Vino is so terribly scummy that the only thing worse is Lamont's defense is just not true.

Whilst I can concede that Sens didn't have much to go on in declaring Vino scummy, you have a long way to go if you want to prove that his actions were

deliberately designed

to get people to vote

Lamont

. I just don't buy it.

However, Korlash did imply that the others "joining in" were town, which was not implied by you - in fact, the exact opposite. Hmmm.

Actually no, in order to mislynch Fishy town are needed. In fact in order to mislynch Vino town are needed. In order for it to be a set-up, town must also join the bandwagon. If only scum vote, no one is mislynched. are you following me?

Oh, sure, I follow you, but that's not what you said. In fact, the silent speaker mentioned this in his latest post:

I never said "everyone" on the bandwagon was town. And I never claimed you claimed everyone was scum.

Bollocks. You said:

A

town

starts a wagon on another

town

and then

a bunch of other town

join it and somehow it's a setup for something?

Clearly assuming that everyone who joined was town. If you concede that some of the people who joined could have been scum, then why

shouldn't

it be a setup of something on their part?

Now the 1-2 mislynch theory is bullshit, because it's just too damn hard to pull that off with a 13 player lynch today and an 11 player lynch tomorrow. But you didn't say what you suggested you said...

Your original post seems to suggest that you thought the others joining in were town as well, at that time. You mentioned this to disprove the theory that the scum were jumping on to hasten a bad wagon started by another townie - you basically said that the scum didn't jump on.

Oh, and good grief people.

Soft claim for the fucking lose.

I pointed out their poor quality, should I have congratulated him for scumhunting?

False dichotomies: favourite logical fallacy of evangelical preachers and scum.

While I agree with most of Percy's 129

Ideally, everyone should be posting once per day with critical analysis of the game. That would be awesome.

is just naive and idealistic.(I realize he says "ideally", but still) That's never going to happen.

Oh yeah, for sure. I don't want anyone getting the impression that it's OK to post less because this is a big game, though.

I've been conditioned not to care much about what I say in Mafia because it gets interpreted as scummy no matter what. Possibly due to my personality.

FoS

.

Post 146 by Vino: I'm not sure why you're voting for SensFan here? at all?

Because I want to. I sense a subtle defense of SensFan from you, what's the deal?

Because you want to?

Also, I see no defense.

Double FoS

.

The motivation I'm seeing from Lamont is an attempt to discredit my case against it by using spin

QFT.

Once again a player of your talents making such a big deal out of this is really over the top, and WHY?

Urgh.

Lemme get this straight...

*You specifically want to vote someone wagonning Vino
*Vino makes a post saying I should know better than to think he's scummy
*You thank him for 'making up your mind for you'
*You vote me

You realize I never voted Vino, right? So, you know, your whole premise that you're voting for a Vino BWer is false.

Not to mention 'I've been looking to vote for someone whose BWing this other person early D1' is one of the scummiest things I've ever heard.Its not that bad.

Whoops. Dam sorry. Sometimes I play while at work and (WHOOPS) things happen.

Unvote

I will re-analyze Vino's wagon thank you.

See, this inconsistent, forgetful, knee-jerk hopping around is incredibly scummy. Constant revision is made to Lamont's posts after-the-fact, and he demands that we only ever look at what he has most recently wrote.

I've got my web comic, and a hankering to put a vote on Lamont, but he's just so damned spastic it feels too much of a condemnation to lynch him because I get townie reads from him.

Elaborate your town reads.

Am I the only one noticing how LC is literally just voting anyone he possibly can, then moving on if it doesn't stick?

Indeed.

Santos: If you think he's town don't vote him.

But if he's a distraction?

So what? Sorry, not good enough. If you get town reads, then what the hell are you doing even thinking about lynching him? If you really think he's town, just

don't get distracted

. It really is that easy.

FoS

.

hasdgfas, you were calling me out a couple times. Was there anything else? I figure since you were paying attention to me it would be nice to know if you've come to any conclusions? I can role claim if you like, but it would only help scum safe claim later.

Soft claiming what the fuck.

So, whats wrong with claiming? Oh, the mafia are scared of claiming, forgot.

Are you serious?!

And now you're taking it back.

HoS

, you're now my number 2 suspect. Your fumbling with the Lamont case reads a little like defence - as if you're trying to get people to decide RIGHT NOW if they want him lynched, in the hopes that you'll deflate the wagon.

I would say that the odds increase of the player being scum for each player already on the wagon. So the least chance would be Fishy & the greatest chance would be Tajo.

First sentence: Thanks, captain obvious.
Second sentence: What the fuck.


Lamont still reads powerful scum. My vote stays.

@Mod: I think some players need prodding, most notably xRECKONERx

[Percy]

Fishy's motivation had nothing to do with meta, as far as I can see. The vote was clearly inflated random voting. What are you talking about?

Also, I can now see where the confusion of Korlash's post originated, given that he confused the wagons.

[Percy]

Because you want to?

Also, I see no defense.

Meh. I gave my defense later, after I heard what he had to say.

I was referring to your claim of seeing a defense of SensFan. Where did that come from?

What is your strat?

What does this post mean?

I'm a little concerned with your reluctant come-around to the L_C wagon, especially since you didn't elaborate on your "town read".

Unless you are trying to interpret that as a soft claim as Charlie Brown? Last I checked, Peanuts wasn't a webcomic. So, no.

Sure, it's not a webcomic, but it is a comic and has webisodes. Your comment was odd and seemed to come from nowhere.

Fishy made a random vote and three people jumped on it with zero provocation or reasons listed, you don't think it's likely that at least one of those people was scum?

Not at all. In a large game, people wagon just to see how the target reacts. Four votes is not any danger at all, and whether the player plays it cool or panics is a good indication of their personality/playstyle. I think your dogged insistence that one of them must be scum is rather tunnelled, and tunnelling is usually a towntell for me.

SensFan's vote

did in fact

lead into a spike in Lamont votes, whether it was intended to or not, and in my mind that lends itself to an inference that it was accomplishing its intent.

You claim that it's a fact when it's simply not. You're constantly overreaching.

and th scum didn't want rofl to be today's sacrificial lamb.

This sentence strikes me as very, very odd. Wild speculation at best.

FoS: tajo

first off, we have a list of

everyone

with where he places them on a scum scale. Always scummy, because it's just so.......out there. It only helps scum. If anyone wants me to explain why, I can, but if everyone understands what I'm talking about, I'll just leave it there.

Meh, scumlists are fairly null to me. Generally speaking, I like people to provide information about their thought processes and how they view other players in the game. It's true that if everyone posted a scumlist it would be an accurate read on who to target for a NK, but it would also help out other roles (such as investigators and doctors). A scumlist in isolation doesn't really help anyone target anything - it just lets us get a better read on tajo.

I think the lammont case is weak but is probably going to happen. I saw the phrase over enthusiastic used to describe him and I think that's probably it. Populartajo and fishy look scummy to me. Tajo's a gut thing, fishy's the post you just cited.

Wishy washy wagon jumpy. You have been the most reluctant participant in this lynch, and it seems very likely that you're preparing to defend yourself for your participation in a mislynch tomorrow - that is, I believe this post and your general playstyle indicates a knowledge of L_C's alignment.

You've also been remarkably soft on Santos, ready to agree with town reads on him.




Regarding L_C:

I acknowledge the breadcrumbing, but it's just as likely that scum would breadcrumb a fake claim.

However, if he's telling the truth, he won't last long. I suggest we leave him alive for tonight, and based of his results tomorrow (if he survives), we can decide what to do with him then.

It should be clear that if anyone else is actually the cop and L_C is lying, they should not counterclaim at this time.

I'm going to

Unvote

, and

Vote: Head_Honcho

. Santos remains my number 2.

[Percy]

Oh, sure, you didn't actually vote, but you couldn't be more on the fence if you tried. Actually, you sat on the fence and still encouraged the wagon, which is worse.

Rather than trying to articulate your reads and preventing the lynch/claim from happening, you stood on the sidelines and said "oh well, I guess it's inevitable". You state that you have a town read, but you simply say that he seems like a townie under pressure to you. No quotes, no attempt to demonstrate this fact, just a weak, wet read (that may very well turn out to be accurate).

You encouraged the wagon - you tried to paint it as something that will happen no matter what, absolving those who jump on the wagon to kill him off of any responsibility. If it's going to happen anyway, then no-one is to blame for the mislynch. This, of course, is the optimal outcome for the scum.

Nothing about the way you handled the situation reads pro-town.

[Percy]

Percy: Are you joking? This is a 25 person game and he had I think 11/13 votes. I disagreed with the read, I stated that I disagreed with it. What is 'wishy washy wagon jumpy' about thinking that someone at L-2 in a 25 person game who is being asked to claim will probably get lynched? I'm not the fucking pope, nobody would have pointed back to my comment in their defense and been able to reasonably say I had absolved them.

It wasn't that you said that you disagreed. The issue is that you disagreed, but didn't feel particularly motivated to

do anything about it

. If others shared your 'oh, it's inevitable' mindset, it would be the perfect outcome if L_C is town, as I stated. Even if he's not town, it's still an anti-town attitude.

I'll drop the hammer.

Unvote, Vote: Lamont_Cranston

. Whilst I was willing to let his lynch wait in light of his claim, the counterclaim from Qwints needs addressing today.

Tomorrow, I have Head_Honcho, Santos and the silent speaker in my sights.

[Percy]

Not if L_C flips scum. If it's something everyone could do from their role PMs, why volunteer yourself specifically? If it's something only you can do, then there is room enough for lying.

Furthermore, if he was attempting to clarify roles by matching words in PMs, then he almost certainly knew that this would be disallowed by the moderator. Showing a willingness to break the rules in the town's favour, when you can be fairly certain you won't be actually asked to break those rules, is a null tell.

I just find his attitudes and posting too odd. Like this:

How popular are cults in this forum?

Why on earth is this post even here? Why is he talking about cults?

I dislike those who play the newbie card, as well as those whose posts contain only votes without elaboration (such as 345).

Vague, but enough.

[Percy]

After Lamont flipped town cop, we all [should have] thought Qwints was a lying scumbag. Mafia were the only ones who knew Qwint wasn't scum, so they took a gamble and off'd the claimed power role.

It seems odd to me that anyone anti-town would kill Qwints, given that his lynch would have been likely today. I can certainly see someone pro-town doing it, but two pro-town vigs is a little extreme. I don't think it's safe to say that the scum did it, at the very least.

---

Oh, okay, you got me under some fat pressure. I guess I should role claim cuz you guys are awfully good at using the information based on yesterday and applying it well here today.

1) I am Riff
2) from Slug Freelance
3) i have a townsperson's role
4) I did my best to see Lamont's innocence, but his own 'fail' is what did him in. I actually thought his 'breadcrumb' was quite clever. Too bad it got him lynched.

And now today our formidable players are so jaded by the 'this sucks' posts that come from myself and Vino that they figure there is nothing else to go on and just vote for something completely a null-tell and trite.

Is there anything my voters would like me to do for nostalgia's sake since they know perfectly well what I'm supposed to do next?

Claiming at four votes is scummy ("Fat pressure"?! Are you kidding?!)
Self-voting is

extremely

scummy.
"I have a townsperson's role" is the weirdest way of phrasing what he wants to imply.
I have no idea why he would claim it as a towntell that he 'did [his] best' to see Lamont as innocent. Why try to look at someone in a biased manner? Apparently, now anyone who didn't want to do this is top of Santos' scumlist.
His "oh no last night sucked" post is scummy.
His "stop picking on me" appeal to emotion is scummy.
His behaviour yesterday was odd, as I outlined in my previous post.

I'm actually just irritated that our doctors are full of fail and didn't protect Quints.

Why would the doctors protect someone who claimed a guilty on someone, which turned out to be false? This is ridiculous.

So why should I waste time? My voters obviously want me to do something and I figured I'd give them a show and see how they respond.

More appeals to emotion, and that last sentence is a very poor justification for claiming early. Far too panicky.

Vote: Santos

.

[Percy]

wagoning santos was stupid in the first place, he was obviously town yesterday as i had already explained

And as I already explained, that's a pretty weak reason to believe he's town.

what's with the suddent flying exclaimation marks and accusations?

I don't quite know what to say to this. I was rather incredulous that he expressed the attitude of the town towards him as "

fat

pressure", and he's looking incredibly scummy to me for the reasons I stated.

I didn't want to do every word for word in my role email because the mods here at this forum are hard core on claims that are too close to the role PMs. So instead of vanilla townie, I alternatively used townsperson.

So you're OK with calling yourself a vanilla townie now?

@Kise:

Lamont is scum.

unvote, vote: Lamont_Cranston

Retarded bread crumb.
Also, I'm the town cop.

Reading this, I took it to mean that he had a guilty investigation on Lamont. Otherwise, why claim his role? Why be so definitive?

Yes, it wasn't "I am the cop and I used my power to investigate Lamont and I got a guilty result", but I certainly thought it was implied. It's certainly how the town reacted. How else do you read yesterday's end?

[Percy]

Did Santos just forget that he softclaimed a power role yesterday?

Well, sort of. SC linked, but I'll quote the relevant parts.

I can role claim if you like, but it would only help scum safe claim later.

It means I know a way to prove your innocence or guilt depending on your claim.

After the mod clarified about quoting role PMs, he posted

well crap, never mind on the confirming you by part of your role PM, Lamont.

His earlier posts certainly hinted at a special power, but now he appears (still waiting confirmation) to be claiming vanilla, and that his special power was that he received a win condition which would be the same as L_C's, and he wanted L_C to quote it. His willingness to verify L_C by this method is why roflcopter believes Santos is town.

Reading this, I took it to mean that he had a guilty investigation on Lamont. Otherwise, why claim his role? Why be so definitive?

This looks like after the fact backtracking to me. I certainly didn't think that qwints' claim had anything to do with a guilty investigation, and given this was a night start, there's no way he could have. He was just trying to counter claim.

That looks like a complete lie to me, Percy.

OK, well that was my mistake. I assumed it was a day investigation, rather than a simple counterclaim. That certainly makes sense as to why the scum would want to kill him, and why the doctors (if we have any) should have protected him. I misread the situation, so I apologise and retract my earlier statements based on that misreading.

[Percy]

Firstly, what I said about the day investigation was true. It was my first thought when I saw qwints' post. Furthermore, when I referred to it as a 'counterclaim', in my head it was more than simply a counter roleclaim. It was completely unnecessary, and caused me a lot of unnecessary confusion.

But you can't be sure of what's in my head, of course. I could be lying. But I would like someone to explain to me how this is a scum move, rather than what I said it was: a stupid mistake.

I am not trying to get out of responsibility for hammering L_C. I'd do it again, given the same information, no questions asked.

@Santos: Are you, in fact, claiming vanilla?

I'm going to do a re-read to clear my head.

[Percy]

SC, you are deeply wrong.

Your hypothesis is that I wanted to say something to try and get a few of the non-attentives to pay more attention to my Santos wagon, and that I would cross my fingers and hope that no-one noticed. Since you're appealing to my experience, how fucking retarded do you think I am?

My concerns about Santos are legitimate, and the ones that still stand don't need any inflation.

Day investigations are rare, but this is a large theme game. I've seen all sorts of wackiness as soon as a mod gets the chance to run something new and different.

I honestly thought that qwints' certainty about L_C's role was due to a day investigation, as well as a counterclaim. That's why I thought he claimed, to be honest - if you'll check, I warned against counterclaiming earlier, saying it was a bad idea. I assumed (for some reason) that he had investigated L_C and wanted to end the matter.

Still reading.

[Percy]

Defense

Well - you've either fudged the truth to make a case stronger and then lied when questioned about it OR you didn't read a claim post properly, assumed it was a day investigation, mentioned absolutely nothing about the day investigation when talking about the counter-claim until specifically questioned about it the next day.

The second is correct, except for the part where I don't mention it until I was specifically questioned about it. I brought it up.

... you just said the counter-claim had to be dealt with.
...If you honestly thought he said something like 'I am a day-investigating cop and I have a guilty on you' then the counter-claim isn't too damning, because it's possible we have two different cops, the guilty verdict is the obvious issue. Yet when hammering you say that the counter-claim is the issue.

It was a case of poor phrasing. I was fairly certain that L_C was scum, but thought that we could deal with it later (based off his survival of the night, investigate results etc.). Once qwints claimed cop, in my head he had said "I am a cop and I investigated L_C and he's scum". This presented to me as something that needed to be dealt with today - L_C had to go. Thus I voted, and I voted because of what qwints said.

Look, I can see why this looks scummy, like I've been caught in a lie, whatever. I'm sure you're very proud of being the one to spot this "scumtell" and are now calling for my blood.

People have two choices - to say I screwed up, or to say I lied. I maintain that I had no reason whatsoever to lie in such a stupid, stupid way. Whilst scum have to lie, they usually do so for a reason, and I can't see how this speaks to my scumminess. SC continues to point out why he thinks there is no valid explanation, but his "why this makes Percy scum" is weak.

In fact - that brings up another point. Percy, why didn't you say anything when you read that qwints had been killed and found not to be a day-investigating cop? You thought he was a day-investigating cop, he dies and flips with 'town cop', the same role thaat Lamont was. That doesn't deserve a mention? A re-read? Oh, I thought he was a day-investigating cop.. why did he flip normal? How did he have a guilty verdict? None of that stuff occured to you?

He flipped cop. Why would "Day-investigating cop" be part of his role reveal?

If Percy sincerely thought there was a day investigation, wouldn't he have wondered why NOBODY mentioned it?

Take a look at my notes on re-read below.

Re-read analysis

1. Spock weirdness

Vino

posts a picture of Spock. This seemed odd to me.
Later on,

Korlash

mentions that the "spock count" is up to "four? five?". Even though several players (myself included) asked him to explain, he never did.

Could you explain, Korlash?

2. Strange reads

populartajo

declares

fishy

town early. I'm not a big fan of early town reads.

Do you still feel that way?

SensFan

sort of defends

Santos

in 210. Today, he's voting him for the "oh no" scumtell.

Sens, what do you think of Santos now?

Still dislike the attitude that

Head_Honcho

had towards the L_C lynch.

Vino

's "no matter what I do everyone always thinks I'm scum " posts sit oddly with me.

Also,

@Head_Honcho

,

When I read your posts I get a slight feeling that you are looking more for things that will get someone lynched than things that make them scum.

This was in reference to populartajo.

Do you still feel this way?

Sens may be scum, but only if Lamont is somehow town.

@Tarhalindur

:

Will you be revisiting this theory?

I agree with Tar that Head_Honcho's attitude towards the tajo case points townish.

3. The L_C wagon, after qwints.

qwints

admits to being not necessarily sane or alone, after

Empking

asks.

rofl

,

has

,

SC

,

populartajo

and

fishy

jump back on the L_C wagon

without saying

anything

, except for populartajo who says:

In the unlikely but still possible scenario that Lammont is indeed a town cop, the doc should still protect qwints since its very likely he is the town cop.

So I'd like to ask

those voters

why they thought that even though the issue of not being sane and not being alone had been raised, why they were willing to jump on the wagon with no discussion.

(Sidenote: I understand that this may appear hypocritical, but it's a question that no-one has asked and needs to be asked. The wagon needs better analysis than just jumping on me, and if no-one thinks so, then maybe you can all look at it tomorrow.)

(Another Sidenote: I thought that the degree of conviction that people had was in response to a guilty investigation, especially after Empking asked whether qwints was sane. That may have prompted my misunderstanding.)

4. Today

SC

voted

Santos

, promised to re-read Santos after Santos soft claimed (which he has yet to confirm), and now seems to have completely forgotten about him.

Santos

plays the newbie card again, which I find hard to swallow. I have already pointed out why I feel the way I do about Santos.

Aside from that and

Vino

's "oh well" (which is another weirdly scummy thing, but I'm still to vague on him to say anything definitive), it's pretty much been about me.

5. Lurkers

As I've already pointed out, lurkerhunting is a nulltell. Still, it's good to do, so for the moment my list is:

Mufasa

- Only a "wagon vote" on L_C. The worst of the lot.

Sironigous

- Still V/LA for another week, almost no content.

Tzeentch

- Possibly still V/LA?

ZazieR

- Promised a re-read 8 days ago.

Riceballtail

- Replaced in, still no posts.

[Percy]

You mention nothing about a day-investigating cop until I specifically point out that a normal cop wouldn't have had an investigation, and you were forced to come up with a reason why you thought an investigation mighth ave been possible.

This is a biased opinion, not fact. How else could qwints have got a guilty on L_C? It's implicit.

Do you expect us to believe when you see town cop flip in most games you would expect them to have the ability to day-investigate? Not to mention that was what Lamont flipped, so why weren't you looking for his day-investigate, if you thought town cop = day-investigating cop? More bs. You knew Lamont didn'th ave a day-investigate result because you knew qwints dind't have one either.

Firstly, I am not asking you to believe that "When Percy sees a town cop flip, he expects them to have a day investigate!", because that's both untrue and retarded. Stop with the strawmanning. Secondly, why would I have to assume that L_C had a day investigate role? I assumed that the nature of their investigations was not revealed.

You think a group of people bandwagoning after a counter claim was what caused you to imagine in a guilty verdict and giving the cop day-investigate status? Yeah, right.

It might have had something to do with it, I honestly don't know how I fucked up like this. This does nothing to address the question I posed to you, which incidentally you didn't answer.

... Percy has explained that his hammer post was indeed explaining his hammer of Lamont, not bringing up two conflicting points about wanting to hammer lamont but wanting to talk more about qwints. Does this change your viewpoint?

Indeed, I wanted to talk more about qwints today, if he survived. What needed addressing was Lamont's alignment, and by 'addressing the counterclaim' I meant L_C needed to be lynched.

He never criticises qwints for wasting his day-investigate, (despite being against the claim alone, let alone both)

It was a stupid move, but what was there to be done about it? He'd done it. Crying over what's done is useless in this game.

2b)

You have to assume this despite the fact that if Percy was thinking qwints had claimed day-investigating cop, the counter-claim aspect of it is FURTHER LESSENED because they aren't the same role, making the possibility of them both being different types of cops more likely.

It's not further lessened, it's strengthened.

A cop got a guilty on him. He was my number one scum suspect, whom I wanted to give just enough rope. Now that the guilty verdict is here, it's hammertime.

1. Percy is scum and hammers Lamont due to the counter claim provding a great and easy reason.
2. Percy attacks his next target and tries to make his target look worse and himself look better by adding in a part about qwints having a guilty verdict.
3. Percy gets called on this comment and, under pressure, lies about what caused him to say that.

1. Are you fucking kidding me? Not only were there five people who jumped on before me without even a lick of discussion about anything,

you were one of them!

Shall I quote your votepost?

unvote, vote: Lamont

Oh yeah, I was the only one who took advantage of the "easy reason". Hypocritical and short-sighted.

2. As I have already explained, this is a dumb fucking plan. I said "HEY GUYS QWINTS GOT A GUILTY ON L_C", and why? Just so I could get mad at Santos for saying "I'm annoyed at the doctors for not protecting him". Yes, a masterstroke! This is, far and above, the weakest part of your "case".

3. I have not lied, not once. I made an error in judgement. That is all.

[Percy]

Then, when qwints counterclaimed, you never jumped on him for going against your suggestion. Why not? You had the hammer power, why wouldn't you ask for specific confirmation of a day investigation role, and why would you choose to believe in a perceived claim of such an unlikely role, when the given player had no posting history in this game?

Firstly, I'd like to point out that even with my misunderstandings, my decision to contribute to the L_C wagon is no worse than the way many others jumped back on. In fact, I actually took the time to write something, rather than simply posting "unvote, vote: lamont" like many did. So I would ask why you are singling me out here.

But I will answer your question, because it needs to be asked and answered. Lamont was at L-1 after a day of extremely suspicious play. I saw qwints' post, and decided that it was time to test both of their claims via a lynch. I was fairly sold on L_C's scumminess, and while I regretted the counterclaim I felt that I needed to put my money where my mouth was. Asking qwints for more details seemed a moot point.

Percy seems like an intelligent individual who is able to exercise common sense. Therefore, given the choice between whether Percy lacks common sense or whether Percy is lying, I'm inclined to give Percy the benefit of the doubt and assume he's lying. I'll abstain from voting until I see Percy's response.

Thank you for the compliment, even though it was moderately backhanded. In this instance, I made an error in judgement. Whilst I do usually check and re-check my thoughts before posting, this one just slipped by. Call it the exception that proves the rule, if you will.

so would it be accurate to say that you're strawmanning the argument against percy in order to support a vote on his most vocal attacker?

Would it be accurate to say that you're misrepresenting an argument in order to further encourage my wagon without even bothering to read what I've said, and ignoring everything else in the game to boot?

[Percy]

Are you expecting us to believe you thought that two people who both flipped 'Town Cop' might have DIFFERENT investigation styles - one day investigate and one night investigate?

Yes?

Look, it was a stupid misunderstanding. I

clearly

didn't think it through.

If a different form of cop counter-claims, well, no big deal. But if a different form of cop counterclaims AND has a guilty verdict - massive deal. So when hammering, you had LESS reason to mention the ocunter-claim and MORE reason to mention the verdict.

I already explained that my expression was poor. What I meant to say was that qwints' claim

s

needed to be addressed. L_C says "I'm the cop" and qwints says "No you're a goddamned lying scumbag, I know because I'm the cop [who now knows you're lying]". The part in brackets was what my brain did, which it had no reason to do. That entire sentence was "qwints' counterclaim".

The more I explain it, the crazier it sounds. I'm not going to have any luck trying to describe this as something a reasonable person would arrive at, because it wasn't reasonable. It was, however, an honest and ultimately harmless mistake. It is you who are spinning it into a great tale of How SerialClergyman Spotted The Scum And Saved The Day.

Lynch Percy.
If he flips town, lynch me next, I'll self-vote.

I will flip town. Then you'll self-vote, will you? Why? Why the hell would you vote someone you (are supposed) to know is town?

If you

do

make a big fucking mistake here and push my lynch all the way until its completion, you should be investigated for it. People will probably vote you for it. But why vote yourself and hasten (what is supposed to be) another mislynch, just because you feel bad about not being quite so mafia1337?

I happen to think you're a tunnelled, hypocritical townie, and the scum are busy rubbing their hands together. You are willing to bet

your life

and

two mislynches

on your read. This is a really stupid, anti-town move. Take a deep breath, re-read what I said, answer my questions and stop carrying on like a conspiracy theorist. Thanks.

---

Unless someone other than SerialClergyman has questions for me, I'm really done talking about this. There are too many people waiting around and watching how this will all play out, I feel, and it's time to pay more attention to the rest of what's happened in this game.

I'd appreciate it if my questions in 466 could get answered.

[Percy]

in a little while i will post my own version of why percy is scum. it will contain no questions, so he doesn't have to worry about answering anything else. then we can finally get around to lynching him, and once he flips scum, we can lynch korlash too.

Would you prefer if I said nothing when you post your accusations? Why would you even suggest that?

I don't see the point of this post. You're continuing to stall, and not answer my questions.

could you explain how that is "trying to get out of the consequences of hammering the cop"?

He chose to hammer the likely cop but is now claiming to have hammer'd a guilty investigation.

"likely" cop? How was he "likely" cop?

He had a believable claim made stronger by the Elan claim.

(Apologies for quotetree)

Wait, you're saying that qwints' claim made you think L_C was

more

likely to be a cop?

[Percy]

Korlash, I think I understand your angle, but your stalwart defense of Percy's slip in trying to make your point has reflected poorly on you.

"Stalwart defense"? Just because he hasn't leapt at my throat and screamed for my death doesn't mean he's defending me.

All that said, I can see a situation where Percy made an innocent mistake as town, but I think that Percy's situation is better explained by him being scum, and in this case I think it's better to err on the side of caution.

Vote: Percy

I'm fairly certain that this mess means that the likelihood is good that at least one of Percy, Korlash, and SC are scum. Percy looks like the one with the most motivation, and if forced to claim, the one that town could gain the most useful information from at the moment.

Err on the side of caution and lynch me? So much content has been generated for this game. Even if you feel the case against me is strong enough for a vote, your explanation is poor. It's as weak as you could get. It also smells like you're ready to line up lynches.

FoS: Vino

.

This is probably completely separate from what Empking is going to say, but answering your question myself, delathi, is it seems like Empking believed Lamont Cranston more because of such a thought out bread crumb. And when qwints counter-claimed, two things could be plausible:
1) Scum getting a town cop lynched by claiming cop.
2) Town cop counter claiming a town cop.

So either case makes Lamont's claim more substantial to believe. That's what I'm getting anyways...

Why did you feel the need to answer for Empking?
Furthermore, 1) is not a good scum move - one for one trades are no good for the scum, even if the townie in question is the cop.
2) was certainly a possibility, but given L_C's scummy play, the most likely situation was

3) L_C was scum, and claimed (and breadcrumbed) cop to avoid a lynch. qwints' counterclaim made L_C's claim extremely doubtful.

I will wait for his explanation, but I state again - three players only posted "unvote, vote: lamont"

after

it was established that qwints didn't know if he was the only one, and didn't even know if he was sane. Others posted a little more, but could be accused of the same thing. I have no idea why I'm the only one getting any attention at all.


@SC:
1. Stop saying "I lied" like it's an objective fact. It's not.
2. You still haven't answered my question from 466. This needs addressing.
3.

I would argue a scum player is more likely to make the original slip, but I think the lying under pressure about it is

undoubtedly

a scum move, not a town move.

My original statement relies on the fact that I thought there was a day investigation result. I haven't changed my story. How have I lied under pressure?
4.

He's using it to attack Santos. It's right there. It was part of his big case against Santos in the post where he pushes Santos. I can't be more clear than that.

The statement in question was a tiny part of what I was saying about Santos. If you remove that entire section from my post, then what's left is still a strong push against him. I didn't even call him scummy for it - I just couldn't understand his statement, and it appeared like another "OH NOES" like his first post (which it still is, by the way).
5.

It's also worth saying I count 15 unique posts since D2, which means that there are 6 people who haven't posted yet at all today, not to mention those who only have 1 or 2 posts. If we're going to apply any sort of pressure ot Percy whatsoever we need people paying attention and voting.

I called them out by name in 466, which it appears you

really

haven't read. The fact that you want them to come back just to bolster your case is ridiculous. As I've said many times before, there is more going on in this game than just what's happened with me today. Would you be happy if Mufasa came back and posted "Wagon vote Vote: Percy"?
6. You still haven't addressed my critique of your willingness to self-vote in 491.

For the record, I asked populartajo, SensFan, Head_Honcho, Tarhalindur, roflcopter, hasdgfas and Fishythefish questions in 466 which they still haven't responded to.

[Percy]

I've just set up my first ever large theme, and I've been a bit busy. I will have a detailed post in 24 hours. Apologies.

[Percy]

Found time.

Elan being the only cop would be unlikely.

Why?

if you're going to shorten my name, please use

hasd

Noted.

Not to mention,

I didn't jump on the wagon without saying anything.

Please look at the post I voted LC. I explained why. Are you just throwing things trying to make them stick?

See, your votepost said this:

Makes a lot more sense than that breadcrumb

...which implied to me that you thought that qwints' claim was a counterclaim, without reference to the fact that there might be more than one or that qwints may have been insane. Your explanation in 520 actually talks about how you arrived at your conclusions and what you were planning, which your votepost did not.

1) If Lamont_Cranston had flipped scum, who would you have thought his scum partners were? (Yes, this is a counterfactual question. I have my reasons for asking - I can explain after you answer the question.)

Santos, Head_Honcho, and Vino.
Santos for his "I get a town read but I might like to lynch him because he's distracting". But his willingness to claim to 'clear' L_C would still be an issue.
Head_Honcho for his lack of action against the wagon (specifically 285), as I outlined in 384.
Vino due to L_C's early defense of him.

Possibly also Fishythefish, due to 144.

2) Who do you currently think is scum, and why? Please be specific here.

In no specific order,

Mufasa

- active lurking, participating in the L_C wagon in the most scummy way.

Santos

- most of what I said from my first post is still valid. I've addressed other scummy things he's done (such as answering for Empking) as they have arrived.

Vino

- his attitude yesterday pinged my scumdar. He was very nonchalant about his scummy attitude, appeared to be distancing from SensFan, and his insistence on a scum presence in his early wagon (which speaks to nerves). Today, he's done "this sucks" and his attitude towards my wagon is suspicious (hence my FoS).

roflcopter

- I had a townish read of rofl yesterday, and whilst there may be a substantial OMGUS factor, I'm beginning to feel like rofl is waiting to make his 'case' against me because his objective is not to discover whether I'm town, but to make sure I get lynched. He's waiting to see what happens with my wagon before he commits.

SensFan

- Your analysis of SensFan is persuasive, and I had already detected interesting interaction between him and two of my other suspects (being Santos and Vino).

Head_Honcho

- his attitude towards L_C's wagon still bothers me, but my scum read has been decreased dramatically due to L_C's flip.

Scummiest are Sens, Santos and Vino.

[Percy]

Follow-up question (multi-part): What was your opinion on the_silent_speaker at the end of Day 1 (before he was death revealed as scum)? Did you think he was scum? If so, what kind of scum, and who would you have suspceted his partners were had he flipped scum? If no, why not?

(TSS flipped town...?)
(However, I will ignore the parenthetical remark and answer the question anyway.)

I had a bit of a strange read of TSS from early on. His Day 1 play was almost entirely devoted to pushing and defending his theory; SensFan was at the centre of a townie-lynching conspiracy, and only he could see it. It reeked of distancing to me, and I wanted to investigate his claims further. In particular, I wanted to see more of his interplay with SensFan and roflcopter, especially SensFan. If he had flipped scum, I would have had either of those in mind when it came to scumpartners.

I was also very interested in TSS's attitude towards "possible multiple scum factions". It worked very effectively for me in Suzumiya Haruhi (even though I was in Mafia Beta) as a scumtell, but I wanted to hear more from him before I brought it up. If the night results revealed some information about possible multiple scum groups, I would have been asking a lot of questions.

[Percy]

If Percy turns out to be innocent - I fully expect to be lynched. I've pushed his case very hard and if he's innocent then I look really bad - I understand and accept that.

I offered the deal to show just how sure I am about Percy being scum. I am very confident Percy will flip scum and I'm prepared to put my money where my mouth is.

Your summary of the motivation as town doesn't include a townie who is close to sure he's found scum and is doing literally almost everything he can think of to try to get people to see it how he sees it. I've been frustrated by what I feel is an apathetic town.

You have no reason to be as confident as you are.
If you feel you have reason to be as confident as you are, you should demonstrate those reasons to the town. If people find it unpersuasive, it's not because the town is 'apathetic'; it's because your case sucks, and people aren't persuaded.
You have lost all perspective. You are doing 'everything you can' to get me lynched, but

fully concede

that you don't have a good enough reason to do so. If you did, you'd tell us all and the town would agree with you. If I flipped town, you would have a good argument to fall back on. Instead, you're saying "I'm so personally involved in this and have no demonstrable reasons to be on this wagon. If I'm wrong, I have no defense".
One thing you said was right, though. I find it more reasonable that you're town than scum.

Get off my back and pay attention to the rest of the game.

Sorry about my absence but its most evident that gorrad failed to mention that I was v/la from last sunday till yesterday, I sent him that in the night pm when I told him my intents on still playing, I also believed he screwed up something with a nk last night, but I can't talk too much about that without a confirmation from him in a pm.

Why would you even think about saying this publicly?
You could have been roleblocked, there could have been another kill, or a kill that can't be protected against, or whatever. There are multiple explanations.
What did you want to achieve by revealing your role?

TSS flipping town: I blame being sleep-deprived, since that's what I was trying to say (the idea was to get what your read on TSS was while he could be scum).

The rest of your question wouldn't have made sense if you believed TSS had flipped scum. It's cool.

- Your behavior towards meta in this game ("meta is usually bullshit") is NOT normal for you; unfortunately, the best example is an ongoing game (albeit one where you have been death revealed as town).

I've lost faith in meta, and this may have been fairly recent. I don't think that it's a poor scumhunting tool at all; however, I find that meta requires a great deal of work to establish, and most people are not willing to put that work in to either come up with arguments or (most importantly) check the arguments of others.

For example, from my experience Fishy is truly impressive scum. In the one game I was in with him (though he replaced in after I died), everyone in the game, dead and alive, would have sworn black and blue that Fishy was town. Many people seem to have quite a town read of Fishy, and the read seems to have been formed really early. The faith people have in meta (because what else could it be?) is often misguided, imho.

In particular, I nailed you as scum while reading your posts in Prisoner's Dilemma in about thirty seconds flat due to your posts being so strongly IIoA.

It was my first ever game as scum. I was pretty happy with my performance overall, but I can see where you're coming from with the IIoA.

That would explain your scumhunting D1 AND the posts that read so strongly scum at the beginning of D1; hell, that's EXACTLY how you played in Suzumiya Haruhi (in fact, of all the games I looked at, Haruhi seems to be the closest to how you're playing here - I was NOT expecting that outcome when I started reading).

That game was one of my favourite games, because it was one of the first instances where my scumhunting really worked. However, you are inflating my early IIoA, to be frank. I was well away from that by my third post in this game. The second post (where you will find some IIoA) was an information gathering exercise. I had seen two pictures pop up, and I wanted to investigate it.

Percy, I couldn't help but notice you kind of flip flopped on me in a huge way. Yesterday you were saying you thought I was scum with role knowledge preparing for L_C's mislynch. Today you're saying L_C flipping town makes you think I'm more likely to be town? Did you forget why you suspected me?

Whilst I still didn't (and don't) like your attitude towards the L_C wagon, I can see it coming from HHtown almost as well as I can see it from HHscum. If L_C had flipped scum, I think your actions would have been

better

evidence of HHscum who didn't want to participate in bringing his buddy down.

Your attitude has been bothering me for different reasons recently.

Today, you started off calling Santos out for claiming a PR. When you realised he didn't, you said

My mistake about Santos, it had been implied before that he was just talking about role pm quoting and it kind of slipped my mind, there's not really a reason to push him for clarification in that case.

Now there's nothing wrong with this statement, but there were plenty of questions in my mind about Santos, and this post seemed to be far too sympathetic towards him.
In the same post, he answers for Empking (which Santos has also done). When called out on it by hascow,

HH, please don't answer questions for other players. It's extremely scummy. Thanks.

he replies

Stop protecting me hasdgfas I can look out for myself!!!

Bizarre. And he does it again:

Korlash I don't think SC's trying to argue that he's infallible, I think he's trying to argue that Percy is scummy. I don't think a person having confidence in their case necessarily constitutes a flaw in the case. I also don't get where your defense is coming from. It's a good point. If Percy sincerely thought there was a day investigation, wouldn't he have wondered why NOBODY mentioned it?

Hasdgfas: Yes and so you essentially asked me not to act scummy. It just caught me by surprise that you were so concerned about my reputation.

I also don't like how he continues to attack hascow. Answering questions and/or explaining other people's motives is at the very least anti-town, and very possibly scummy. To try and spin this into a half-hearted point against hascow and to keep on answering for other people is not a pro-town action.

I'm read up to 551, but I need to go and actually do some work today. More tonight.

[Percy]

@Tar: I've been burnt by meta before, but I can see your point. I guess I find meta to be a poor

persuasion

tool, but that doesn't mean it's not a good

scumhunting

tool. Hmm.

Now that he quit

e

, it just shows me how much of a coward he is to not be able to converse properly with someone who is stating an apology.

How do you know he has quit?

where is the suggestion any early read on me was based on meta?

populartajo declared a town read of you in 60. I asked him where he got this from, accused him of using poorly established meta, and asked why he did such a thing. He never answered, and turns out he's never played a game with you. I just couldn't think of any other reason why he would say such a thing.

I will admit to being the first one to bring up Fishymeta, but I certainly didn't do it to cast aspersions. I haven't checked Tar's analysis, but I will.

Korlash, I think I understand your angle, but your stalwart defense of Percy's slip in trying to make your point has reflected poorly on you.

Paraphrase: “Korlash, your defense of Percy is a reasonable one. However, if you continue it you look scummy. So stop.”

Could you explain to me the purpose of this paraphrase? I think I know what you mean, but I'd rather be sure.

[Percy]

Sorry guys, been super busy. Preparing a longish post, will have it up tomorrow.

[Percy]

I think Vino was trying to get Korlash to stop his fair defense of Percy, and discredit said defense, by telling him it looked scummy.

Tar's meta of me is accurate in the "ordered" regard, and my post explains rather than denies this.

That was my interpretation.

I have to agree with Fishythefish about his meta. I did my homework and read through Fishy's other games, and I have to say that formatting is a poor choice of scumtell.

@Tar: Is there anything you picked up on, aside from the "neat numbering"? Your post certainly implies that there was more to it.

Regarding Santos, I find his manner and attitude towards SensFan horribly unjustified. However, I find it fairly null in terms of a scumtell. I am happy to conclude that they are not both scum together.

Santos and Mufasa are getting a lot of attention deflected from them by others' insistence that they are newbies. Santos certainly isn't a "newbie", and I don't think Mufasa is either - at the very least, this is far from his first game. Newbie town make scummy mistakes, but so do newbie scum. I'd like those who are claiming a newbie read on either of these players to spell out (1) why they think it's true and (2) why they think it makes the player in question more likely to be town.

Mod: If Santos is remaining in the game, please replace me.

I cannot play in a game with a player with an attitude like Santos' - it is actively driving me away from reading the thread.

FoS: Tzeentch

. The Santos drama has only been in the last few pages, and should not detract from your ability to re-read the rest of the thread. This looks like an excuse to stall and continue active lurking.

Paraphrase: “Korlash, your defense of Percy is a reasonable one. However, if you continue it you look scummy. So stop.”

No. More like my way of saying FoS: Korlash. How do you read that it's me trying to get him to do something? Saying something "reflects poorly on you" doesn't mean "stop doing it." It means it looks scummy. What if I say that trying to put words in my mouth reflects poorly on you?

It was certainly more than a simple FoS when you first made the observation that Fishy paraphrased. What is it about his accusation that is not true?

Re Mufasa:

If he's scum, he has a claim prepared, if he's town, it's best not to out the details.

I agree with this assessment. Vino, do you want a claim? Why (not)?

Re How does claiming help with the town's "concerns" that the PRs weren't doing their job:

^ just lets them know they are working.

Clearly they didn't work. How does your claim establish anything, other than give information to the scum (if you're even telling the truth)?

As an aside, I'm seriously considering massclaim here.

Yes, we have a lot of dead powerroles, but why do you want to out the rest? Surely this is a strong argument

against

massclaiming. Yes, scum might be locked into falseclaims, but I strongly disagree with sacrificing our few remaining PRs to make this happen. I flatly disagree with your assessment of the situation.

I don't think a flavour claim would be a bad idea.

How would this be helpful to the town?
I tell you my role i become a target for the scum to nk

If you're not scum, you're already a target. How could you not be? Also, your attempt to make Vino the orchestrator of your mistake is gross misrepresentation.

Percy: As the point of making Elan a cop is naive speculation.

I asked why Elan being the only cop was unlikely, as you said qwints' claim made you

more

likely to believe L_C's. I don't understand how this post is even an answer. More details please.

i think Tar knows what he's talking about so I'd like the flavour of his protect.

"flavour of his

protect

"? What does that mean?

I appreciate the comments I got from a lot of people that I went over the top, and I'm tunnelling and whatever, but after my activity waned I think the scumhunting ground to a halt.

You "appreciate" the comments, but which ones? Have they affected your outlook in any way? There are still many things that players (especially myself) have brought up that you have not responded to.

in a little while i will post my own version of why percy is scum. it will contain no questions, so he doesn't have to worry about answering anything else. then we can finally get around to lynching him, and once he flips scum, we can lynch korlash too.

i still owe my own analysis of percy. i'll get to it eventually.

We're still waiting. You've been active in your other game as well. Stop stalling.

[Percy]

Percy; Naive speculation is more likely top happen with multiple cops.

Naive speculation happened

after

the cops died. Here is the first mention that I could find:

I strongly doubt we had two full sane cops - either one (coughElancough) was nonsane (naive Elan makes much sense) or we have multicop for multiscum. I'm leaning towards the former.

In fact, that's the only mention of naivete, except for when you said

Percy: As the point of making Elan a cop is naive speculation.

I still don't understand the point you're making. You said that qwints' claim made you more likely to believe L_C, and now you seem to be suggesting that it's because there was naive speculation. In fact, only one player speculated, and it was well after both the cops were dead. So what exactly made you believe L_C more after qwints' claim?

When I paraphrase roflcopter everybody says I'm scummy, but when Fishy paraphrases me it still means I'm scummy? That doesn't make sense to me.

This was your paraphrase:

This also bothers me.

btw, lets keep this momentum going people, don't just unvote and sit on your hands.

"Come on guys, let's lynch somebody quickly, doesn't matter who it is!"

You got FoSed by hascow for "blatant misrepresentation", because it is. Now the part of Fishy's paraphrase you're objecting to is this:

Fishy says I want him to stop. I never said that. Fishy said that if he continues it it makes him look scummy. I said he already looks scummy. The only thing I was saying is that he defended a weak case, and it made him look scummy. Don't read into it too much.

So you're saying here, as far as I can see, that the other parts of the paraphrase were accurate - you're just objecting to Fishy's conclusion that you wanted Korlash to stop. Then let me ask you this: why did you say what you said to Korlash? Were you suggesting that he continue? I find this unlikely.

The discussion on the table is whether or not we should do a flavor-only massclaim. I don't see how this would sacrifice our remaining PRs, since the flavor is generally not indicative of the role, as evidenced by previous flavor reveals.

I know you've decided that this is the discussion we're having, but it was Tarhalindur who brought up the idea of a massclaim. He wanted to examine the claims to break apart the setup. I think it's a terrible, terrible idea to massclaim our roles right now.

Incidentally, what do you want out of a comic/name/flavour claim? You're already expressing doubts as to the usefulness of the information we might gather, which I find concerning.

I get the feeling Mufasa is a BD. Not that I expect him to confirm or deny, but you all should consider that it's possible for him to be more than a protective-role. And for what it's worth, he's acted this fishy while townie before,

so it's likely that he's pro-town as someone else already said

. He's damn sure an easy (mis)lynch.

How could you get that feeling? You seem to be suggesting that Mufasa is a BD, and wanted to protect last night anyway. There are many other explanations, and I think BD is unlikely. Could you explain further?
Also, I don't like this defense you're doing here. Specifically, the bolded section - the use of the word "likely" and palming off responsibility for the comment on some unnamed player doesn't sit right with me. You seem to be willing to ignore his scummy behaviour, simply because he's played poorly as town before.

Percy has not suggested anything (today/D2) to advance the scum's objective, but has said some awfully scummy things, hence my vote. I believe, however, in the event that Percy is pro-town, that scum-Korlash could be banking on his flip so he could appear more townie for defending him. On the otherhand, they could both be partners. I'd suggest Korlash lynched before Percy just to assess their connection.

I have been reading Korlash's posts since attention first started on me. I find defending other players is usually a good scumtell, but nothing about Korlash's posts has jumped out at me. I have found far more evidence of people trying to read a scumdefence into his posts. Now people are advocating his lynch and calling him a liar. That is far more interesting than any circumstantial evidence that may be gathered against me based on Korlash's flip. I'll re-read that whole section tonight.

Re: Tzeentch/Santos

Why is it scummy that he doesn't want to deal with Santos's posts?
Even without posting, he still has to read them.

I agree that Kise is reaching here by pairing him with Sens, but the point against Tzeentch still stands. If he's re-reading the whole thread, why log on just to comment on Santos' behaviour, which was occuring only in the last few pages? Why cite that as a reason that his re-read will be delayed?

@SC: Are you still going to self-vote tomorrow if I get lynched? Why would you even suggest that?

[Percy]

*turbo facepalm*

[Percy]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

If you're saying that it makes sense that Gorrad would put multiple cops into the game, why did you think this was the case yesterday? More importantly, why would another cop claiming make you more likely to believe the first one?

Also, what about my argument requires Gorrad to "see into the future"? How does the knowledge that he can't have any relevance on the question of why qwints' claim would make L_C's

stronger

?

[Percy]

It's not guaranteed to do anything, but I have a few ideas in mind:

(1) It may be possible to catch scum in a lie, either today or at a later date, through counterclaim or otherwise;
(2) It may make scum fakeclaims easier to spot later on, given that they will have to tailor their role to suit their flavour.
(3) I am curious whether everyone comes from different comics, or there are some from the same comic.

I am certainly against lynching anyone simply because their character is a "bad guy" in whatever comic. Whilst I could believe Elan was a town-aligned player, "Man with a Hat", "Davan" and "Evil Atom" don't scream pro-town.

I plan to do my re-read within the next day or so.

[Percy]

Also what is a BD? Doctor that kills the target?

Backup Doc. Kise hasn't answered my question to him on that point, either.

Vote: Kise

.

@Sotty7: Empking needs to explain his reasoning better than he has. When he said "Naive speculation is more likely to happen" as a reason for believing L_C, the fact that

he

speculated can't be used as evidence towards this proposition. There are plenty of other questions he still hasn't answered, such as what he meant by Tarhalindur's "protect flavour" and Gorrad "seeing into the future". Why did you feel it was necessary to answer for him?

To me it looks like he forgot the details of his hammer on LC yesterday and is now trying to reconcile the two thoughts. Like SC said, I'm not buying it. It just doesn't add up and I think he is scum.

Again, I ask the obvious question: even if you think it doesn't add up, and even go so far as to say I forgot the reasons I was hammering L_C, why does that make me scum? Why does it make more sense that I would forget if I'm scum than if I'm town?

I find it quite suspect that, after your re-read, you answer for Empking, claim your pro-town read of Mufasa, and vote me, without commenting on other suspects - Korlash, Vino, SensFan etc.. Do you have no thoughts on anyone else?

Dominic Deegan falls very firmly at the front of the lynch-on-sight list, and while the conclusion is a little shakier than it was yesterday - Something Positive fell on the edge of the list and came up town - it's not shaky enough for me to discard it.

How would you have felt about Evil Atom? Why is Dominic Deegan lynch on sight?

Percy: That reason 3 for supporting the name/origin massclaim is pretty damn scummy.

Why? It's a possibility that should be addressed. If we have four or five pairs of people from the same comic, that's something that we should know. If there is only one or two pairs, then they would warrant attention. It could be used to clear someone in a pair if their partner was lying and flipped as such, as well.

And I find it a bit rich that you would call this scummy when it was you who originally proposed a massroleclaim for no good reason that I can see, and ignored me when I asked you about your motives.

I'll claim.

I am

Sam

, from Sam and Fuzzy.

[Percy]

I understand and agree he needs to explain better, but you tried to say that no one talked about naïve vs sane and I was pointing out that wasn't true. I really don't see how I answered for him, I just debated the fact you said it was only brought up after the lynch.

You misunderstood, not me. Empking said something about naive speculation occurring,

which in turn

made him more likely to believe L_C. He asked a question about sanity, and was the first and only one to do it before the hammer. This is not the same thing at all.

Because if you were town you wouldn't need to make up a reason why you hammered. That's my thought process anyway.

I didn't make anything up. I made an honest, stupid mistake.

Korlash is doing some good posting, but I don't see his angle when it comes to your hammer. That does give me some pause for thought.

I re-read Korlash, and I see his angle as fairly null. He saw SC and others pushing a case against me that was poorly formulated and establishes no grounds as to why I'm scum. Could be a scumploy, but could equally be an honest assessment.

Also, this quote is some major fence-sitting.

His initial vote on LC was wishy washy and he did seem to lurk during day one, only posting when others called him out.

I don't think the second point is accurate at all.

Also what is a BD? Doctor that kills the target?

Backup Doc. Kise hasn't answered my question to him on that point, either.

Vote: Kise

.

Why bring up backup doc at all?

That's exactly what I'm saying, Tar. It's why I voted him.

1) I'd probably have considered Evil Atom scum, but NOT in the same scum group as a Dominic Deegan scum.

Well, I guess I'll just have to wait for you to elaborate on this one. Just keep in mind that I've noted everywhere where you said that you will elaborate, and I will hold you to it.

[Percy]

Still to claim:

Tzeentch
Korlash
Santos
roflcopter
Sironigous
SensFan
ZazieR

@Empking: Can you answer my questions, please?

[Percy]

Also Percy, you found it suspect that I came into the game without commenting on any of the other suspects, but what about the other replacements?

Kise came in started posting at the start of day two with just a vote on Santos commenting on nothing else.
Sajin came in at the end of day one and just happened to put LC at lynch-1 after the counter claim commenting on nothing else.
RTB is a little better, makes a comment about the santos wagon, but in his next post votes for rolf commenting on nothing else.

I get a strong town read from Sotty due to 705.

Are these players also suspect to you?

Kise - yes, very much so. For the reasons outlined by both myself and Tar. I found 698 to be a very good articulation of the problems I had with his play so far.
Sajin - yes, but only mildly so. Many others were guilty of piling on L_C there at the end of yesterday, and his participation so far reeks of "active lurking".
RTB - still undecided, since without rofl's participation it's difficult for me to assess his stance.

For everybody not familiar with how this works: you should also push for MoS to claim ASAP. I'll explain why this is the correct course of action after he does so.

It's hard for me to ascertain why I should be pushing for such a thing without knowing your reasons. I also find myself wary of your willingness to flush out information.

Yeah. Deadline in two days.

Vote: Percy

partly because I'd rather him lynched than me, but mostly because I still think his slip was scummy. I'd also support a SensFan or Kise lynch.

MoS I suppose should claim, for some reason I don't understand.

Wow, this sure is a scummy post. This was from his votepost:

SC, I think you're overreacting about how solidly Percy's slip implicates him as scum. It's pretty scummy, but your over-reactions and certainties are what Korlash seems to object to. I've used "certainty speech" as town before so I can't say it's a solid scumtell, but the forcefulness of your reaction is not looking very townly.

Korlash, I think I understand your angle, but your stalwart defense of Percy's slip in trying to make your point has reflected poorly on you.

All that said, I can see a situation where Percy made an innocent mistake as town, but I think that Percy's situation is better explained by him being scum, and in this case I think it's better to err on the side of caution.

Vote: Percy

I'm fairly certain that this mess means that the likelihood is good that at least one of Percy, Korlash, and SC are scum. Percy looks like the one with the most motivation, and if forced to claim, the one that town could gain the most useful information from at the moment.

Major fence-sitting, and I feel a scummy interpretation of the situation. Now he's voting me to save his own skin, and supporting the Kise wagon for no reason that I can see. Worst of all, he's trying to say that he was suspicious of me all along, when really, he was only ever voting me out of "caution". There are much better cases out there, and he knows it.



OK, well, here's the unofficial vote count at the moment:

Percy (5): SerialClergyman, Empking, roflcopter, Sotty7, Vino
Vino (4): Hasdgfas, Fishythefish, Mastermind of Sin, Mufasa
SerialClergyman (2): Korlash, Sajin
Kise (2): Percy, Tarhalindur
Mastermind of Sin (1): SensFan
Rolfcopter (1): Riceballtail
Korlash (1): Kise

Note Voting (5): Sironigous, Delathi, ZazieR, Tzeentch, Head_Honcho


I'm on five votes, and this may very well be my lynch.

First off, I find Vino scum for his behaviour on both Day 1 and today.
I find Empking extremely scummy, and have been trying to get him to answer questions that I think need answering.
I think SerialClergyman is probably town, but his reluctance to talk about anything else other than me today is giving me pause for thought. His willingness to self-vote is a stupid move, but I don't think it's anything more than a townie who thinks he's found The Golden Scumtell when really it's just a stupid mistake I wish I hadn't made.
Sotty7 I get townish reads from, but I can't help but not like her vote on me.
I think roflcopter is mildly scummy, and his V/LA has made it hard for me to respond to his accusations, if he even has any.

I think Tarhalindur threatens to dominate this game, and I hope people keep him in check.
I think Mufasa and Santos are/were both very anti-town, and shouldn't be given the degree of forgiveness most people are willing to give.
Korlash is still fairly null to me. For the record, I think those who tried to say "Percy, Korlash, SC - at least one is scum" are most likely anti-town, and that's one of the reasons I think Vino may very well be scum.

Tar's case on SensFan is very persuasive, and I'll be reading along to see how that goes.

Other than that, I have no other insight to offer. I'll claim.

I am the

Town Hider

. I nominate one player each night, and I don't die unless they die as well. If I hide behind scum, then I don't die even if they do.

For the record, I targetted Tzeentch on Night 1. I thought it was safest to target a lurker; I didn't have a good enough read on anyone, so picking what I thought was an anti-town player to hide behind was too risky.




My vote remains on the person I think is most likely scum.



I can't believe I'm at risk of getting lynched on five votes. FIVE.

I ask that everyone make a final comment on how they feel about the way my wagon has proceeded. Even if you're voting for someone else, say something. When I flip, it may give you something to look at, rather than a weak, listless wagon which no-one seems to care all that much about.

[Percy]

Vino is on 5 votes, Kise and I are on 4. Deadline is fast approaching. Vote now, people.

Kise is a better lynch than Vino at the moment, in my opinion. Vino can be semi-confirmed by whomever he recruits, whilst Kise can't.

@SerialClergyman: You are so utterly, completely tilted. Are you still going to self-vote when I flip town? If I'm lynched, I'm going to love reading along to see how you get out of the ridiculous hole you've dug for yourself.

[Percy]

After your farcical claim, which you don't even bother defending, I'd sell my house if you're town

What is there to defend? Some people think it's scummy, but I claimed fully and honestly. Furthermore, the "NKimmune and no disprovable comments" idea would apply fully to a claim of Hider, without the extra rule that I don't die if I target scum. Please enlighten me as to why scumPercy would make up that detail.

Also, make sure you post photos of the For Sale sign.

your play has hardly reflected someone who doesn't care at all aobut being NKed, has it?

What?!

I can't believe the lengths you will go to to twist this "case" against me into something believable. You're honestly proposing that I should have been talking about how invincible I am from the beginning of the game?

[Percy]

I claimed honestly, and I'm sorry if it's not the most convenient thing for you, SC.

Tonight I will hide behind Empking, assuming I'm not lynched. There's a bit of info you can check up later.

Also, the argument that I would have had a different playstyle if I was really NK immune is complete bullshit. Just as bullshit as that I've been a poor participant in this game. I have asked a lot more questions and helped to generate a lot more content than most, and I've been calling it how I see it when I do.

@SC: If I die tonight, I want to see you self-vote and sell your house, please. Otherwise you're a liar, and we all know what happens when someone gets caught in something that might be a lie!

(I don't really want you to self-vote. I think you're desperately wrong and have an overinflated opinion of your scumhunting abilities, and are compromising yourself in an attempt to prove yourself right.)

(I do want you to sell your house though.)

Voting Kise is essentially voting a lurker.

Is this honestly your assessment of the case against Kise?

[Percy]

Unofficial vote count:

Kise (7): Percy, Tarhalindur, Head_Honcho, Vino, Fishythefish, Sotty7, Sajin
Percy (3): SerialClergyman, Empking, roflcopter
Vino (2): Hasdgfas, Mufasa
SerialClergyman (1): Korlash
Mastermind of Sin (1): SensFan
Rolfcopter (1): Riceballtail
Korlash (1): Kise

Note Voting (5): Sironigous, Delathi, Mastermind of Sin, ZazieR, Tzeentch

It's looking like a Kise lynch.

I'll hide behind Empking, and probably die. At least I get to take Empking out with me.

FoS: Head_Honcho

, for his play today.

There might be correlation between leads and power roles, but it's not automatic, at least in my case. @Tar, you may be good at breaking setups, but I sincerely doubt that Gorrad would have made it that obvious. Besides, who is the "lead" in XKCD?

If I do die, this post is a good summation of my thoughts for the last two days.

[Percy]

Initial thoughts:

Korlash lied about his name and comic.
"Discontinued Mafia" may be a red herring, but also might point to multiscum groups.
No-one took the bait to take both Empking and I out.
Dominic Deegan (aka Kise) was not a good character to "lynch on sight", as Tar suggested, based only off the flavour.
Erasure has been used as a kill flavour both nights, but on Night 1 we had Death Ray (presumably Vig, so no surprise it didn't show up again) and "Chuckshot", whilst last night we had "Beaversticked" and "Electrocuted". The mod said of Mufasa and Korlash:

The other two were killed directly by each other.

...which seems to suggest that Mufasa had a power that killed anyone who killed him. Hence I'm willing to put the Chuckshot and Beaverstick kills with the "Discontinued Mafia", and the Electrocution to another scum group/SK.
Empking still hasn't answered my questions, and so

Vote: Empking

until he does.
Re-reading.

[Percy]

His flip is yet more evidence that

Percy is scum

.

Actually, all it's indicative of is that Korlash is scum. Anything beyond that is worthless WIFOM. Scum buddy up to town for this very reason - to promote mislynches.

Mufasa is a lurker kill, so could be just about any faction.

Lurker kill? Nice to see you're paying attention to what's going on in this game.
Remember this?

I believe that qwints should've been protected last night, but it seems that something blocked the protection.

So, yeah, not a lurker kill, a

doctor

kill.

Seeing both Percy and Emp alive today my first thought was that emp was scum and I'm a little surprised Percy didn't present that as a thought in his first post of the day. Of course there is some WIFOM involved here. The scum could have chose to leave emp and Percy alive because they see them as potential mislynches. But if Percy was telling the truth and killing emp would have killed him, why not knock off two supposed townies for one?

Going for Mufasa makes sense as well, even if Empking is town, due to his claim.

It is evidence

consistent

with Empking scum, but I don't think it's particularly persuasive evidence

for

it. I think Empking is scum for different reasons. He was caught making some pretty suspicious statements. He dug himself into a hole of contradictions. Now he's posting nothing of substance and hoping I'll go away.

---

as previously mentioned, korlash scum --> percy scum. if it wasn't readily apparent before, it should be now.

vote: percy

1. That implication fails. The player that does the buddying deserves to be called out for it, but being buddied to is fairly null.
2. "as previously mentioned"? Sorry, this is a lie.

You called out buddying from Korlash:

so would it be accurate to say that you're strawmanning the argument against percy in order to support a vote on his most vocal attacker?

Then promised:

in a little while i will post my own version of why percy is scum. it will contain no questions, so he doesn't have to worry about answering anything else. then we can finally get around to lynching him, and once he flips scum, we can lynch korlash too.

I've been waiting on your "own version" for over three weeks now. Notice that this is "if Percy is scum then Korlash is scum".

More evidence:

scum

percy
if percy -> korlash
if percy -> rice (unwillingness to commit to a view of percy, blatant chainsaw defense)
vino (seperate from percy)

Note the direction of the implication, and that

Korlash was not on your list

.

That's it. There's really no reasoning that I can see of why "Percy scum implies Korlash scum", it's simply stated as a fact. There is

absolutely no discussion

of why "Korlash scum implies Percy scum".

So, yeah, don't say you "previously mentioned" something when you didn't.

3. It bears repeating - what original analysis have you been sitting on for this past three weeks? The "Korlash scum implies Percy scum" argument couldn't have been advanced yesterday, so what is the

actual

reason you think I'm scum? And why wasn't it worth mentioning in your first post back?

FoS: roflcopter

.

RBT's attitude towards roflcopter doesn't sit well with me either - to be more precise, his lack of attitude towards anything else.

---

Now it's time to go back through Tar's play yesterday.

As an aside, I'm seriously considering massclaim here.

I didn't like this suggestion then, though I'm open to a discussion about it today.

Dominic Deegan falls very firmly at the front of the lynch-on-sight list, and while the conclusion is a little shakier than it was yesterday - Something Positive fell on the edge of the list and came up town - it's not shaky enough for me to discard it.

Requires explanation.

2) I will explain why I consider Deegan a scummy comic claim when claims are done.

You didn't ever do this. This was your Kise votepost:

Kise's argument that just comic claiming would be "no good" is utterly, utterly wrong (and I knew that when I proposed the massclaim); while a pure comic claim would not have outed any scum from a group composed of villains from otherwise normal webcomics, it would find any scum from a scummy webcomic should they either not realize their webcomic was scummy or misclaim. (Full massclaim would stand a better chance of outing both, hence why I pushed it.)

The question is, why ignore this? Could Kise have just not realized that some webcomics were scummy? Or is Kise scum from the hypothetical scummy webcomic faction, who thought he could out the other group this way with no increased risk to himself?...

Grrr... WHATEVER!

I'm Donovan Deegan, somehow related to

Dominic Deegan

; main character of the comic we're from.

I suggest we get a nameclaim from Mufasa next, then the most suspicious players. Let them go first.

OH WAIT.

Unvote, Vote: Kise
HoS: SensFan

No mention of the theory there. You present it as self-evident, but you hadn't explained it, and you knew I had asked you about it.

I'll fully explain the flavor behind what I suspect is the second scumgroup (the one qwints could detect if he was sane) tomorrow or Saturday - the cliffs notes version is that this one is composed of scummy webcomics, not scummy characters.

Is this a theory you're still interested in? What was your reasoning yesterday?

For everybody not familiar with how this works: you should also push for MoS to claim ASAP. I'll explain why this is the correct course of action after he does so.

Are you still pushing for MoS to claim?
Your post has fairly definitive language, but you haven't backed up what you've said.
Also, as I

previously mentioned

:

It's hard for me to ascertain why I should be pushing for such a thing without knowing your reasons. I also find myself wary of your willingness to flush out information.

The primary theories I have been working with:

1) Certain webcomics are likely to compose a "scummy webcomic" faction (I've suspected this since I saw the opening flavor, and qwints's flavor reinforced that suspicion) - specifically, especially notorious comics (the kind that have a massive hatedom and get multiple posts on sites like Your Webcomic Is Bad and You Should Feel Bad). Dominic Deegan falls squarely into this category (there *is* a comic that could be considered more notorious than Deegan, but I haven't seen it claimed so far).

This theory needs re-evaluation.

2) Flavor fits poorly with roles (this is the other reason I suspect Percy is lying about his claim).

Does this theory describe everyone except for me?

3) Characters that are the lead in their comic are far more likely to be vanilla, if not certain to be vanilla (I don't have quite enough evidence to be sure of the latter conclusion - which, if correct, means Percy and MoS must be neutral or scum - but the former is a logical inference IMO).

Kise's flip seems to give greater evidence for this theory, but the Dominic Deegan question still needs addressing.

You have an unsettling expectation of trust from the playerbase. You have deferred your reasoning for a long time, and it's time to show us why we should listen to what you say.

[Percy]

percy is suffering from a hardcore logic fail, which looks intentional - korlash was not "buddying" with percy, he was defending the ever living shit out of him, doing everything in his power to prevent a percy lynch

for everyone getting their panties in a twist over the difference between if percy -> korlash and if korlash -> percy, of course it goes both waysd, stop being dense

You say I'm suffering from a "logic fail", when an interpretation of the facts is what you're really referring to.

Even if I agree that Korlash was defending the ever living shit out of me, doing "everything in his power" to prevent my lynch,

why does that make me scum

?

Defending a townie is a standard scum move. If the person you're defending dies and flips town, you've got a good launching point to try for a mislynch against a townie who pushed for it. If you die before them, it makes whoever it was you're defending look even worse.

Then you go ahead and say "percy->korlash" is the same as "korlash->percy", which is immense logic fail.

Care to try again?

I think if percy was town he would be helping out more and asking for more contributions rather than taking the backseat.

I've been a lot more involved in this game than most today. Also, I've just finished reading after replacing into a 140 page game, and I'm a bit fried.

I'll post more soon. Going to give Tar a thorough re-read.

[Percy]

For everybody not familiar with how this works: you should also push for MoS to claim ASAP. I'll explain why this is the correct course of action after he does so.

Are you still pushing for MoS to claim?

?
I guess not, because:

- I currently consider Head_Honcho and MoS semiconfirmed town.

Why?

We *might* be able to catch Mafia by figuring out if they're trying to claim mp

What does mp mean?

- If that third kill was actually the result of Mufasa... that's two unexplained kills for two nights in a row. Two Mafia factions + an SK is looking increasingly implausible. Not impossible, though... wouldn't rule out Mufasa protecting Empking last night.

I was under the impression that Korlash died because he killed Mufasa - the fact that Gorrad said "The two were killed directly by each other" makes this seem like Mufasa had a power whereby anyone that NKed him got NKed back. That means two scum groups and no protection of Empking makes the most sense.

I have never heard of this webcomic ever... and have not read any part of it yet so I really have no idea who my character actually is. Heh.

Discontinued comic as mafia is VERY interesting though. Hum. Baddies for me usually doesn't mean discontinued.

Smells like scum fakeclaiming to me.

FoS: Sironigous

.

Korlash claims that the bandwagon was a "bandwagon started by town on another town". I started that bandwagon, so... by this logic I am unlikely to be Discontinued scum.

Hmmm... yes, that is plausible.

how exactly do you suggest that this is going to work itself out, not forgetting that his claim is synonymous with nightkill immune?

I'm not NK immune if I publicly state who I'm hiding behind.

a defense like Korlash's can be faked by the scum and carries practically no risk, as Korlash getting lynched before Percy was an unlikely event.

This. This is why the Korlash => Percy implication is no good.

Just noticed I made an error:

Hence I'm willing to put the Chuckshot and Beaverstick kills with the "Discontinued Mafia", and the Electrocution to another scum group/SK.

I meant to say "Erasure", not "Electrocution".

I think it's odd that the group/SK with Erasure didn't target me. Now of course you might be thinking that it's because I am that person/part of that group, but I'll say this for when I flip town later - the best interpretation I can come up with regarding last night's actions is that Empking has the Erasure power, and the mafia decided to go after the doctor. Empking couldn't target me without wasting his kill, so decided to hit someone else.

in a little while i will post my own version of why percy is scum. it will contain no questions, so he doesn't have to worry about answering anything else. then we can finally get around to lynching him, and once he flips scum, we can lynch korlash too.

I've been waiting on your "own version" for over three weeks now. Notice that this is "if Percy is scum then Korlash is scum".

You have had ample opportunity and a lot of prompting to come up with this. So I take it that your "own version" was a complete fabrication?

Vote: Percy

- I still think he's scummy with his statements and him trying to get out of the first day's hammer.

Wow, can you answer my question please?

Percy; Naive speculation is more likely top happen with multiple cops.

Naive speculation happened after the cops died. Here is the first mention that I could find:

I strongly doubt we had two full sane cops - either one (coughElancough) was nonsane (naive Elan makes much sense) or we have multicop for multiscum. I'm leaning towards the former.

In fact, that's the only mention of naivete, except for when you said

Percy: As the point of making Elan a cop is naive speculation.

I still don't understand the point you're making. You said that qwints' claim made you more likely to believe L_C, and now you seem to be suggesting that it's because there was naive speculation. In fact, only one player speculated, and it was well after both the cops were dead. So what exactly made you believe L_C more after qwints' claim?

And just in case you missed the clarification,

I understand and agree he needs to explain better, but you tried to say that no one talked about naïve vs sane and I was pointing out that wasn't true. I really don't see how I answered for him, I just debated the fact you said it was only brought up after the lynch.

You misunderstood, not me. Empking said something about naive speculation occurring, which in turn made him more likely to believe L_C. He asked a question about sanity, and was the first and only one to do it before the hammer. This is not the same thing at all.

So please clarify. Adding mystical statements on top of vagueness and then ignoring players when they call you on it is incredibly scummy. If I could vote you again, I would.

For the record, I like Tar's case against SensFan.

I also think Sajin's attitude is pretty bizarre. Firstly, there's this:

I dislike serials reasonings on percy. I do not think that play would be made as town. Therefore I will

vote SerialClergy

...which indicates to me that he doesn't think my misread means I'm scum. Then, today he votes me and says:

I think if percy was town he would be helping out more and asking for more contributions rather than taking the backseat.

...which is just completely inaccurate. I think I've done anything but take the backseat. This doesn't mention Korlash's attitude towards my wagon at all - so I'm thoroughly confused as to why he'd vote me. Also,

Flavor of head hanchos claim fits in with one of the kill methods really really well.

I just looked over the wikia article on Gilgamesh Wulfenbach, and I can't imagine him erasing anything or beating someone to death with a beaverstick. Now there is some mention of electronics, but Head_Honcho was not involved in the death of Korlash - Korlash was killed directly by Mufasa, as the opening post of today says. In light of this, do you still think Head_Honcho is scummy?

I think lynching Empking and waiting on people like SensFan to answer the cases against them will provide good information for today, possibly enough to stave off a fullclaim. However, I'm not totally against the idea, and once I hear back from some other players and we get closer to the deadline, I'm willing to reconsider it.

[Percy]

the lynch isn't about getting information, its about

killing the scum

. lynching for information is an excuse scum use so they can lynch townies. what information exactly do you think an empking lynch would provide you? why should sensfan have a day's reprieve to answer the case against him if you think its so good? why can't you make up your mind about a massclaim now? are you just waiting to see which way the wind blows and find the safest opinion to take?

Stop twisting my words, please. The paragraph which you quoted was my attempt to explain why I don't think a massclaim is a necessity right now. Elementary mafia theory: massclaim gives the town lots of information to look over, but also reveals that information to the scum. It endangers the town PRs, and if we have any left I would like to not see them NKed.

I think massclaims should be used as a last resort, not "hey Tar's in this game he can break setups let's trust him". Right now, I think Empking is a great lynch, hence my vote. I think SensFan is worth pursuing, and the same with Sajin. If the leads don't go anywhere, then I'll consider saying yes to a massclaim. For now, we have plenty to work with, and talking about massclaim is distracting.

I have stated my strong opinion that Empking is scum, and I want him to die. I was willing to sacrifice my life just to see him die yesterday. So don't try and tell me I'm sitting on the fence here.

Ironically enough, you haven't even mentioned massclaim today, except to feel Fishy out about why he supports it. How do you feel about it? Why is it OK for you to criticise me for not making up my mind when you clearly haven't made up yours?

mufasa was a

doctor

, people. no amount of mod flavor is going to make me believe that he was responsible for korlash's death. stop trying to claim that he was and use that to as roundabout evidence one way or the other on any living player.

Firstly, there is nothing ambiguous about this:

The other two were killed directly by each other.

How you can interpret that as "a

third

scumfaction killed Korlash" is beyond me. Secondly, the fact is that everyone knew I was hiding behind Empking, and that killing Empking would bag two dead guys. But I already said that it has almost no bearing on why I think Empking is scum. I just think it makes sense, and may be worth investigating later once everyone knows I've been telling the truth all along.

you're failing to account for the fact that if percy is scum he is nightkill immune, which is the most valuable member to defend from the lynch because a lynch is the only way they can die.

I've said this before, but apparently I need to repeat things at least three times before you might notice what I've said. I will publicly declare whoever it is I'm hiding behind each night. I will probably die very soon. I am going to try to hide behind people I think are scum and hope for a crosskill between the factions. You can lynch me if you really want to waste another lynch, but lynching is not the only way I can die.

also, for christ's sake guys, look at what sc wrote in 799. korlash wasn't just defending, he was hedging his bets and distancing at the same time.

Yes, so it was calculated and cautious. It doesn't change the fact that I'm town, and scum defended me in the hopes that

exactly this would occur

.

---

Finally,

in a little while i will post my own version of why percy is scum. it will contain no questions, so he doesn't have to worry about answering anything else. then we can finally get around to lynching him, and once he flips scum, we can lynch korlash too.

I've been waiting on your "own version" for over three weeks now. Notice that this is "if Percy is scum then Korlash is scum".

You have had ample opportunity and a lot of prompting to come up with this. So I take it that your "own version" was a complete fabrication?

You promised your "own version", which I took to mean (at the time) that there was some

other

scummy thing you'd noticed, or some

new

interpretation.
You didn't post it then.
You haven't posted it now.
I've asked you for it at least three times.
You haven't even provided a re-hash of the same case SC was pedalling yesterday and claimed that it was your "own version".

Everything you're talking about today refers to events that came

well after

this post of yours.

I essentially called you a liar in the last post, and you ignored me. What the hell are you doing?!

HoS: roflcopter

.

[Percy]

In that case,

I was under the impression that Korlash died because he killed Mufasa - the fact that Gorrad said "The two were killed directly by each other" makes this seem like Mufasa had a power whereby anyone that NKed him got NKed back. That means two scum groups and no protection of Empking makes the most sense.

I think it's odd that the group/SK with Erasure didn't target me. Now of course you might be thinking that it's because I am that person/part of that group, but I'll say this for when I flip town later - the best interpretation I can come up with regarding last night's actions is that Empking has the Erasure power, and the mafia decided to go after the doctor. Empking couldn't target me without wasting his kill, so decided to hit someone else.

Both of these theories are out the window.

Also,

Flavor of head hanchos claim fits in with one of the kill methods really really well.

I just looked over the wikia article on Gilgamesh Wulfenbach, and I can't imagine him erasing anything or beating someone to death with a beaverstick. Now there is some mention of electronics, but Head_Honcho was not involved in the death of Korlash - Korlash was killed directly by Mufasa, as the opening post of today says. In light of this, do you still think Head_Honcho is scummy?

This question should now be preceded by; this theory should be rejected given that AFAIK Girl Genius is a regularly updated webcomic, and is therefore either a fake claim or a townie claim. In light of this, do you still think Head_Honcho is scummy?

mufasa was a doctor, people. no amount of mod flavor is going to make me believe that he was responsible for korlash's death. stop trying to claim that he was and use that to as roundabout evidence one way or the other on any living player.

Firstly, there is nothing ambiguous about this:

The other two were killed directly by each other.

How you can interpret that as "a third scumfaction killed Korlash" is beyond me. Secondly, the fact is that everyone knew I was hiding behind Empking, and that killing Empking would bag two dead guys. But I already said that it has almost no bearing on why I think Empking is scum. I just think it makes sense, and may be worth investigating later once everyone knows I've been telling the truth all along.

Obviously there are three NKs that are unaccounted for, rather than two. roflcopter's initial observation about Mufasa not being responsible is (almost certainly) correct. Furthermore, if Empking was one of the NKing factions (and so unable to kill me) and the Discontinued Mafia went after Mufasa (at the very least the flavour suggests that), then the third could have hit Empking and therefore me.

The fact that

both

Empking and I are alive today has no obvious explanation that I can think of right now,

even if

you think I'm lying about my claim.

I'll have to rethink things. I may have missed something, but I think the rest of my analysis still stands. Thanks for the clarification, mod.

[Percy]

EBWOP: Scratch that bit about Gilgamesh Wulfenbach. It could be a truthful claim from non-Discontinued Mafia scum.

[Percy]

Either roflcopter has superhuman powers of perception to guess that 'killed by each other' meant 'killed right next to each other' or he had something to do with one of the kills. You'd have earned my vote if I wasn't still chugging along on the Percy wagon.

So you're saying that my original interpretation made the most sense, given the flavour Gorrad provided? I certainly thought so. However, I don't think roflcopter's objection to my analysis amounts to his confession of performing the deed... necessarily. His response:

thats the kind of thing that really, really doesn't need to be pointed out.

...makes me think twice. This post is telling SC to shut up and not point out things he thinks is scummy, which is a rather scummy attitude.

I don't see how the comments above make sense in a scum-buddying-town narrative.

I am not in a position to answer for Korlash, so I won't even try. However, I think his actions encouraged my wagon, and I came very close to being lynched yesterday. The fact is that I'm town, and Korlash's actions almost got me killed yesterday, and may very well get me lynched today.

@SC: Will you be pressing for a rofl lynch tomorrow when I flip town (after you self-vote and sell your house)?

@percy: clergyman's original rendition of the case against you is enough on that front.

So you have confessed: when you said you had your "own version", you were really just lying to encourage my wagon.

roflcopter is a liar. If I wasn't so sure of Empking's scumminess I'd be voting for him.

Hey Percy! (or anyone...) Have you heard of that comic before?

You see, I started over and read I think the first 10 strips, but I don't think I saw my character at all.

I hadn't heard of the comic, no. I'm not an avid webcomic reader anyway. It was the way you phrased your claim (that you hadn't even looked at the webcomic) and your comment about the Discontinued mafia that threw me.

[Percy]

Re: my meta:

If you want to look at some aggressive townie-meta from me, check out this game of mine - Jungle Republic. If anyone would like to point out any major deviations in my playstyle between that game and this one, go ahead.

Also, I'd like to point out that Sajin was in this game - True Love with me. Just read my exchange with Kmd, and tell me whether aggressiveness is part of my town meta or not.

HoS: Sajin

. This is the

second time

you've used completely inaccurate arguments against me today.

---

I think it's odd that the group/SK with Erasure didn't target me. Now of course you might be thinking that it's because I am that person/part of that group, but I'll say this for when I flip town later - the best interpretation I can come up with regarding last night's actions is that Empking has the Erasure power, and the mafia decided to go after the doctor. Empking couldn't target me without wasting his kill, so decided to hit someone else.

If you are telling the truth emp wouldn't target you at all. This is why initially I thought emp could be scum, but you seemed to ignore that idea which like I said was very strange. You are basically voting for emp for not answering your questions right? Do you have a actual case on him?

Firstly, I clarified how this theory fails in 813. As I said there, I can't think of an obvious explanation for what happened last night, and I don't think anyone else can, even if they think I'm scum (at the very least, I'm yet to see one).
I think your question is like this (if you forgive the paraphrase):
Given that you thought that Mufasa and Korlash killed each other and the Erasure faction targetted someone who wasn't Empking, why did it not initially occur to you that Empking was probably that Erasure faction?
My answer is the same as it was before:

It is evidence

consistent

with Empking scum, but I don't think it's particularly persuasive evidence

for

it. I think Empking is scum for different reasons.

I think another viable possibility (based

only

on the events of last night) is that Empking is town and I'm town, and after my lynch Empking may well be another mislynch. Two mislynches is good for any scum faction.

My case against Empking is pretty much as it was in 771. He said some pretty inconsistent things. He was incredibly evasive, and used those inconsistent statements to push my wagon. He's dug himself into a hole of contradictions, and has now put his vote back on me without responding to my questions and gone back to lurking.

Yes, it's not the strongest case I've ever put together. But all Empking has contributed to this game is bizarre, inconsistent statements, ignoring questions, anti-town behaviour and pushing my wagon. Empking

will

ignore me if I start talking about anyone else or pushing any other wagons - just like he did in the Jungle Republic game you and I were in that I linked to above (and, for the record, I was right about Empkingscum in that game).

---

Also, just noticed this:

Wow lots of Kise hate coming around... None of it I like. Can we not lynch him and take out SC? Cool, glad I could get a word in edge wise.

Can someone point out to me how the way Korlash treated Kise was different from the way he treated me? If Kise was still alive, I'd expect SC and rofl to be getting stuck into Kise about this, at the very least, with the same terrible justification.

[Percy]

How I feel about Percy tomorrow would depend to a great extent on what happens in the night.

You.

Why.

Town is in NO position to lose another power role at all, especially one that relates to non-town players.

Two HoS's: Fishythefish

WIFOM is preventing me from voting; why would you softclaim like that?

This requires some explanation.
Are you saying that the town is in no position for me to die, given that my claim is true?
Are you referring to some other power role?
How does this constitute a softclaim from Fishy?
Why would you be afraid to vote, given that Fishy is currently voteless, if you felt that strongly about his scumminess?

Its not the post amount but rather the post aggressiveness of Percy. It does not match his town meta imo.

Links?

This feels like a backing away of the initial statement of taking a back seat. If you meant aggressiveness you would have said that in the first place.

Also, what Hascow said.

I linked the only game Sajin and I were in together.

If you want to look at some aggressive townie-meta from me, check out this game of mine - Jungle Republic. If anyone would like to point out any major deviations in my playstyle between that game and this one, go ahead.

Still... Hate... That... Game...

I still have nightmares...

I went back and re-read 771 and you don't mention emp in it, citing the wrong post?

I think Empking is scum for different reasons. He was caught making some pretty suspicious statements. He dug himself into a hole of contradictions. Now he's posting nothing of substance and hoping I'll go away.

Also, this is emp we are talking about, he does things like this... All the time. I'm not forgiving it at all, but the way you were talking about your emp case, you had me believing that it was something strong. It's not.

I do however get and understand your point about if your focus shifts.

Why do you want my focus to shift? Where do you want it to shift?
I never said that the Empking case was strong. Cases against Empking are never particularly strong, because of the way he plays every game he's in - as an anti-town lurker. I'm trying to pressure him for answers, and having been in a few other games with Empking, he seems like scum in this one. Furthermore, he's not going to post

anything

of substance to construct a case with unless someone demands that he be held accountable, hence the pressure.

Outside emp, who is next on your most scummy list?

Sajin and roflcopter, followed by SensFan. My suspicion of the first two should be well established, and I want SensFan to answer Tar's case.

I also asked you what you thought about SC at this point in the game.

He's tunnelled and (therefore) not looking at the rest of the game nearly as much as he should be, and is encouraging others to tunnel in on me as well. That said, he seems to be suspicious of Sajin's 180 and roflcopter's involvement in the death of Korlash, and yet continues to push my lynch. He wants my lynch, but he wants it done right. Also, Korlash hated him. I still think he's town.

Also, just noticed this:

Wow lots of Kise hate coming around... None of it I like. Can we not lynch him and take out SC? Cool, glad I could get a word in edge wise.

Can someone point out to me how the way Korlash treated Kise was different from the way he treated me? If Kise was still alive, I'd expect SC and rofl to be getting stuck into Kise about this, at the very least, with the same terrible justification.

This is one quote. The Percy/Korlash relationship was a lot more extensive than this. I would have thought that would be quite obvious really.

Sure, pointing that out was a little petty of me. Just thought it was worth mentioning that I wasn't the only one to be inflicted with Korlash's buddying.

[Percy]

EBWOP:

Why do you want my focus to shift? Where do you want it to shift?

These are stupid questions, because I misinterpreted what Sotty said. I believe she's saying she understands my point about what will happen if my focus shifts off him, rather than "I will understand if your focus shifts". The explanation that follows is superfluous.

Apologies, please disregard.

[Percy]

@Empking: Here is the full discussion we've had so far, with two themes I want to ask (and have asked) questions about.

could you explain how that is "trying to get out of the consequences of hammering the cop"?

He chose to hammer the likely cop but is now claiming to have hammer'd a guilty investigation.

"likely" cop? How was he "likely" cop?

He had a believable claim made stronger by the Elan claim.

(Apologies for quotetree)

Wait, you're saying that qwints' claim made you think L_C was

more

likely to be a cop?

Your original post was a justification for your vote on me. Your reaction seems completely bizarre. Most people seem to have assumed that qwints' claim was a counterclaim - whilst I could see how another person claiming cop wouldn't necessarily constitute a counterclaim in a large setup, to say that it made you

more

likely to believe L_C is completely bizarre. Your response:

Elan being the only cop would be unlikely.

Why?

Percy: As the point of making Elan a cop is naive speculation.

I asked why Elan being the only cop was unlikely, as you said qwints' claim made you

more

likely to believe L_C's. I don't understand how this post is even an answer. More details please.

i think Tar knows what he's talking about so I'd like the flavour of his protect.

"flavour of his

protect

"? What does that mean?

So here are two questions, the first of which you address below (in a very unsatisfactory manner). However, note that you have completely ignored the question about the "flavour" of Tar's "protect". Why do you think that Tar has a protective role to begin with?

Anyway, continuing on:

Percy; Naive speculation is more likely top happen with multiple cops.

Naive speculation happened

after

the cops died. Here is the first mention that I could find:

I strongly doubt we had two full sane cops - either one (coughElancough) was nonsane (naive Elan makes much sense) or we have multicop for multiscum. I'm leaning towards the former.

In fact, that's the only mention of naivete, except for when you said

Percy: As the point of making Elan a cop is naive speculation.

I still don't understand the point you're making. You said that qwints' claim made you more likely to believe L_C, and now you seem to be suggesting that it's because there was naive speculation. In fact, only one player speculated, and it was well after both the cops were dead. So what exactly made you believe L_C more after qwints' claim?

This is the second question I want answered.

You have said that I was scummy for hammering L_C. You go so far as to say that I hammered the "likely cop", as though I should have known that L_C was a cop after qwints' post, rather than suspecting the exact opposite. Yet you have been unable to explain to me why this was the case. More than that, you've focussed entirely on me, when it's quite clear you were the only one who (apparently) thought L_C was more likely to be the cop given qwints' claim, and others voted without any attempt at explanation after qwints claimed. You've talked about some naive speculation that never happened to try and make it sound more plausible and ignored my other questions.

To make this crystal clear, here are the questions in bullet-point form.

-Why did you think that L_C was more likely a cop after qwints' claim?
-Do you think anyone agrees with you?
-If so, who? If not, why am I the only one worthy of comment?
-Why did you mention naive speculation, when none occurred?
-Why did you ask for the "flavour" of Tar's "protect"?

---

@Sironigous: Search function works fine for me...
Also, whose power role were you worried about losing? You essentially accused Fishy of endangering a powerrole, and now you've said you don't know what you were referring to. Clarification please.

[Percy]

I answered the second question and I didn't want to know the nature of [Tar's[/b] protect. Does Tar even have a protect?

You haven't answered my other questions. Nice backtracking on the Tar issue.

I still like my vote.

Do you still think I'm taking a backseat? Do you still think I'm too aggressive to match up with my town meta? (Hint: The answer to both of those questions is no)

- Percy's play has reminded me of his play in Suzumiya Haruhi since I double-checked late yesterday, and I specifically thought that Percy and Korlash seemed linked.

I would like you to provide more details here please.

In Suzumiya Haruhi, I was a member of the Mafia Beta, and managed to scumhunt out the Mafia Alpha and get them both killed. I did this by denying there was another scumteam, and catching the Mafia Alpha on their insistence on multiscum. I can't see how this is applicable to this game at all.

i killed korlash. that much should have already been obvious. i'm not willing to claim anything further at this point.

posting from my phone right now, i'll have more when i get to a computer tonight. a full massclaim still seems like a poor plan.

1. Why did you think it was obvious?
2. Why did you think it was necessary to claim?
3. Why did you target Korlash rather than Empking? You were far more suspicious of me than Korlash yesterday, as I already pointed out.
4. If your kill was a one-shot ability, did you try and use it on the first night? On who, and why? If not, why not?

Here's a fun explanation for things:
The discontinued mafia have a kill a night. The method is "Erasure"- this kind of fits with them flavourwise (they are jealous of existing comics? that kind of feel, anyway). On top, they have their hitman, who gets through protection- and kills two outed PRs. On night 1, tajo kills the person he was most supsicious of day 1 (given kill method and day 1, I would say this is extremely likely). On night 2, rofl kills the person he was most suspicious of day 2, with the exception of someone who cannot be killed at night.

In other words, I think the facts are perfectly consistent with single scum- in which case we can typically expect one death, by Erasure.

Again I ask - why didn't roflcopter target Empking in this scenario? Does this make you think that Empking is scum?
Also, you're saying single mafia faction with two NKs. It's a possibility, but I don't know why you're sure enough to vote me over the issue.



For the record, I can't see a non-WIFOM use of my night action.
If I target a townie and the Mafia don't target my target, then it will implicate whoever I hid behind. If we lynch them and they flip town, then you will (obviously) lynch me. They can kill someone else and have two mislynches lined up. I can't think of a way to use my power to help confirm anything - I agree with Fishy that the "wait and see" attitude won't reveal anything about my alignment.



I disagree with Sironigous that the flavour of rofl's kill doesn't match his claimed chracter. Eve is an android, and from the website:

Eve is combat-ready - she is strong enough to lift a car, can generate defensive shields,

releases energy as violent shockwaves

, and has an energy-blade that is generated at her wrist.

Note the bolded.

FoS: Sironigous

, for dubious wagon-jumping.


I still want an Empking lynch. I would like rofl to answer my questions. I think Sajin is probably scum. I am somewhat suspicious of Sotty7 and Sironigous. I am growing more suspicious of Tar, especially due to his "These people are confirmed town" without explaining why. I'll do a re-read of him and see if I can put something coherent together.

[Percy]

We know for sure (kill method) that two of the kills have been carried out by their hitman, and so were presumably seperate from the main scum kills.

I have never heard of a mafia team with two kills. Perhaps it's my lack of experience, but the Hitman role allows the scum kill to go past any protection and can't be RBed. This is already a pretty good power for scum to have. To say that they have this power

as well as

another kill, even though it can be blocked, is a stretch too far. You're putting a lot of faith in this theory, and I think far more than the knowledge we have warrants.

---

I want to point out a worrying trend I see in Tar's posts. Essentially, he will do something (such as say "MoS should claim") and will always ask us to trust us - ("I won't tell you why he should, just make him do it"). Especially alarming is Tar's post where he says MoS and Honcho are definitely town, again deferring an explanation - completely reversing his insistence on MoS claiming, and not telling us why he should have claimed in the first place. Given that most of his theories have turned out to be wrong, he's either softclaiming a PR or overinflating his theories again.

What really bugs me is that asking him to explain feels anti-town - outing information and all that jazz. What we're left with is an enigmatic, authoritative softclaimer, who is trying to direct the game by deferring explanations and his insistence that we should trust him, and that he'll explain later.

Search is indeed broken, so my meta research has been handicapped, but I'd like to point to a few games.

ISO of Tar in SG-1 Mafia (where he was scum) - important to note that he was scum in this game, and both (1) advocated a massclaim so he could break it to 'help out the town" and (2) withheld reasoning from scumreads - see especially ISO 50-53.
ISO on Tar in New Age Mafia (where he was SK) - Tar replaced in on Day 3, and look at his second post - same sorts of statements I've been talking about. He claimed JoAT and got away with it until Day 6.
ISO on Tar in Return of the Mafia! (where he was town) - establishes that his willingness to ask for a massclaim and break setups is null. However, at no point was there a "trust me" or a definitive statement masked in ambiguity.

As I said, broken search function, but I'd like Tar to respond to this. At the very least, if I die today, I want you all to stop trusting Tar and give him a good look over. Furthermore, it shows how Tar can control a game with set up analysis, and that's not always a good thing.

---

Empking and Sajin are still extremely scummy. I'm inclined to believe rofl at the moment.

@RBT: What do you make of the rofl wagon now? How about his claim?

@Mod: Could we get prods on MoS, ZazieR, Tzeentch and SensFan?

[Percy]

Random Mafia 3 and Medieval Mafia should be extremely instructive here (I consider them my two best games, period, and have been trying to use that particular playstyle more). They should also be fine examples of hinting that reasoning exists for my actions but is being withheld as town (see especially my comments on dahill1 in Random)

In Random 3, I noted two posts where you did what you described. Once was after someone asked you about a breadcrumb, and once when someone asked you for full details on an investigation.
In Medieval Mafia, you asked for a massclaim and said you would elaborate.
If there were others, please show them to me.

This is not the same as what you're doing in this game - saying particular players are town without giving reasons, and pushing for

specific

claims without giving reasons.

I've also spotted a contradiction. This is what you said about the MoS claim yesterday:

b) Santos/MoS (claiming vanilla as nonlead doesn't fit, which is why I tried to force MoS to claim before reading the thread).

This was the same post you said that MoS and Head_Honcho are "semiconfirmed" town.
Now you're not only saying that MoS and Head_Honcho

are

town, but also:

- As for why to ask for a MoS claim: I won't reveal fully just yet (since there's a chance my plan will still work, albeit a small one), but it's for exactly the same reason that a player was asked to claim in one of the games I linked above.

Now you want a claim, for different reasons? You want him to claim, even though he's town? Something doesn't add up.

Head_Honcho has been pinging my scumdar from early on in this game. I certainly haven't forgotten about all the things I've posted about him (just do an ISO on me if you're curious), but your attitude towards him has certainly given him good cover against any investigation I might want to do.

I'm content to wait for explanations. You say you have reasons, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - for the moment. I also enjoyed the article you linked.

I've already established that this kind of play is part of your scummeta - even if it is (arguably) part of your townmeta as well. I just don't want to see the town be led around by the nose by one player just because he keeps insisting that we trust him.

---

Also, I'm going with my friend Occam on the multiscum theory.

Re-reading, I've noticed what might be chainsaw defense of Korlash on Fishy's part as well, specifically by attacking Vino. Now I don't know that Vino is town, but I'm going to take Tar's advice and go with my gut a bit and say I buy Vino's claim. Even if I don't, the following is still worth noting.

Korlash, I think I understand your angle, but your stalwart defense of Percy's slip in trying to make your point has reflected poorly on you.

Paraphrase: “Korlash, your defense of Percy is a reasonable one. However, if you continue it you look scummy. So stop.”

Korlash, I think I understand your angle, but your stalwart defense of Percy's slip in trying to make your point has reflected poorly on you.

Paraphrase: “Korlash, your defense of Percy is a reasonable one. However, if you continue it you look scummy. So stop.”

Could you explain to me the purpose of this paraphrase? I think I know what you mean, but I'd rather be sure.

I think Vino was trying to get Korlash to stop his fair defense of Percy, and discredit said defense, by telling him it looked scummy.

No. More like my way of saying

FoS: Korlash

. How do you read that it's me trying to get him to do something? Saying something "reflects poorly on you" doesn't mean "stop doing it." It means it looks scummy. What if I say that trying to put words in my mouth reflects poorly on you?

Adressing someone directly, telling them what they are doing "reflects poorly on them", is clearly giving them a reason to stop. Your tone reads more like advising Korlash to stop his defenses than fossing him, particularly "I think I understand your angle but...". For me, your post is far more about building the Percy wagon than attacking Korlash.

I think your way of criticising Korlash is deliberately passive, and the focus is on getting him to abandon his defense of the Percy wagon, rather than actually accusing him.

This can be read several ways.
I get the impression that he thinks I'm town from these posts. He was one of the first people to actually accept that I may be town, and may have just made a mistake.
He characterises Korlash's defense as reasonable, and clarifies that he thinks the defense is fair. That says to me that he thinks both Korlash and I are town, and that Vino is wrong for trying to underhandedly attack Korlash's defense - as the goal of "building the Percy wagon" is the intention he decries.
Now perhaps Fishy made the same mistake as me regarding Korlash, in which case he's a townie doing some scumhunting who didn't buy the "Korlash is scum buddying to a townie" theory (same as me, back then). The other way to read it is that he's giving Korlash cover and trying to keep the Vino wagon going strong at the same time.
His recent attitude towards the multiscum theory has made me think twice, because I was going with the former for a while. Enough to give me gut vibes, icebergs and all that.

Summary of my reads so far, in no particular suborder (except for Empking):

Scum

Empking (still refusing to answer basic questions about scumslips)
Sajin (scummy wagon contributions, so obvious it hurts my eyes)

Mild scum

Sotty7 (had townie vibes, and there is probably OMGUS in here, but I don't like her attitude towards my wagon)
Fishythefish (as above, but very mild)
Head_Honcho (as previously mentioned)
Santos/MoS (emphasis on the Santos)
SensFan (start posting omg)
roflcopter (I'm kinda buying his claim, but his attacks on me have been scummy as hell, so I'm not dropping him off my scumdar just yet)
Tarhalindur (as above)

Null/Lurking

Tzeentch (lurking? V/LA?)
Sironigous (don't really buy any cases so far, but needs to post more)
RBT (It would be great if he talked about someone other than rofl)
ZazieR (lurking... what a surprise)

Town

hascow (vibes)
Vino (vibes + buyclaim)
SerialClergyman (the read I'm most sure of)

[Percy]

@Vino: I quoted some of it. Remember when you got annoyed when Fishy paraphrased you? That's what I'm talking about.

@Sajin: Yes, I linked them. I think the links demonstrate how you're completely wrong, and how you misrepresented my meta to try and push my wagon. You haven't responded with links or interpretations of your own. You're happy with this?

[Percy]

Besides, you're missing the pattern - when revealing the reasoning to my question would weaken the utility of the question itself, I will note as such and promise to explain once the question is answered.

Yes, and that is a pattern that is consistent across both your town

and

your scumgames.

Should I attribute this post to ignorance or malice? The former says you need to reread the game, the latter says you're scum.

Ah, proof by intimidation! And then you back it up with some half-baked metaquote to try and scare me into silence.

The fact is, if you read my post, what I'm pointing out is this:

Tar: MoS should claim.
Tar: My theory doesn't work, I wanted MoS to claim to help confirm my theory.
Tar: MoS is probably town.
Tar: I want MoS to claim (but I won't say why, I have a plan).

I had thought that the first three sentences cancelled out the need for the fourth, but apparently not. The fourth also came out of nowhere - I honestly thought that when you gave your reason for wanting a claim and said he was probtown, the matter was settled. Your post that I quoted looks like you forgot why you wanted the claim in the first place.

Here's the ISO on MoS. What is there in these four posts, only one of which contains any content at all, that makes him worthy of town status? I can't see it.

Likewise, why are you assuming that I have to think a player is scum to ask for a claim? I'll ask for a claim from a player at L-2 (L-1 in games with less than 10 players) regardless of my opinion on whether the player is scum; the reasoning here is not so different, and in fact argues for forcing a claim from MoS regardless of how many votes he's at and my opinion of his wagon. I will not elaborate at this time - the effectiveness of this ploy depends on MoS not figuring out what's going on.

I wasn't assuming the first sentence - that's why I was confused. The

only

time I will call for a claim is L-2 (I agree with your reasoning as to why L-2 is better than L-1, may have read that in another of your games) or if I think they're scum. Perhaps a massclaim to help the investigations along (I'm not confident enough to try and break setups to scumhunt, my Hammersmouth game being a good example).

You're saying it is a good idea for someone you consider pro-town to fullclaim their role. This is odd.

Look, I will trust you. I will back off completely and not talk about this again. However, I want to make sure that everyone is aware of how you're behaving, and make sure they hold you accountable.

I was under the impression that a hitman's kill could be seperate from the main mafia kill; if this never happens, then clearly we have another scumgroup/SK.

I've personally never seen it as such. I'm not going to say "never could it happen", but I think it's very unlikely.

Sajin: Still scummy.
Empking: Still scummy.
Fishy/Sotty7: Worth another read. Will get that done in the next day or so.





Where the hell is everyone else?

[Percy]

Then why are you trying to argue it's a scumtell? It's a null tell, yes, but you don't lynch someone based on a null tell.

Then why are you trying to defend yourself, saying how what you're doing is a great asset for the town? When you claim to be in control and that know what is going on and everything will work out OK, it has (sometimes) been an enormous lie. It's worth pointing out, and your defence to my objections has alternated between aggressive and patronising.

The fact is, if you read my post, what I'm pointing out is this:

Tar: MoS should claim.

Tar: My theory doesn't work, I wanted MoS to claim to help confirm my theory.

Tar: MoS is probably town.
Tar: I want MoS to claim (but I won't say why, I have a plan).

I had thought that the first three sentences cancelled out the need for the fourth, but apparently not. The fourth also came out of nowhere - I honestly thought that when you gave your reason for wanting a claim and said he was probtown, the matter was settled. Your post that I quoted looks like you forgot why you wanted the claim in the first place.

Your error lies in the struck-through sentence above. There is a different reason entirely for asking for MoS to claim.

The "plan" (actually just good play) existed from the moment I first asked MoS to claim, though I didn't act for it for a while today (in no small part due to uncertainty over whether my ploy could still work - no coincidence that I started asking again after MoS was prodded).

Just because you strike it through doesn't mean you didn't say it. You said:

b) Santos/MoS (claiming vanilla as nonlead doesn't fit, which is why I tried to force MoS to claim before reading the thread).

Now there's another reason!

Lets please lynch him and move on.

Tomorrow, I expect both the self-vote and the pictures of your house for sale.
I live in Sydney too - perhaps I'll drop by and buy it.

Now that my lynch has been painted as "inevitable", I think that people who join my wagon now will have a great excuse as to why they lynched a townie tomorrow.

Again, I say:

Sajin's contribution to my wagon has been incredibly scummy.
Empking continues to avoid my questions, and has disappeared. What a surprise, given that this is exactly what I predicted would happen.
Don't let Tar have a free ride. Make sure you ask for his explanations and are satisfied by them.
Fishy and Sotty are having an interesting interaction here. I get scumvibes from both of them in different ways, but I'm not going to be around to feel them out.
Sotty's entrance was opportunistic, but I can see a townie do it. Fishy is more of a worry - his attitudes on D1 weren't great, and his monoscum theory doesn't stand up to sensible analysis.
MoS and Head_Honcho are on my scumdar, but that wagon's been shut down until Tar explains what he means.
SensFan needs to answer or be policy lynched.

It's times like these that I hate playing town. If you talk a lot and try to scumhunt, there's always something to pick up on and be spun into a scumtell. If, instead, you lurk like crazy and post basically nothing (Empking, Sajin, SensFan) you can avoid being lynched because the town just doesn't care.

I hate my wagon, but that's not too surprising. I think that a lot of people on my wagon won't be too surprised by my flip, even if they're town. My lynch is now about information gathering and convenience rather than actually catching scum.

I really don't think there's anything left to say.

Go town.

[Percy]

Percy - I would love to play with you when you're town. I've actually really enjoyed playing with you so far but I can't see you as town, despite these appeals to emotion.

1) I'll absolutely post the pics of the sale of my place, but on a more game-related note, you'd like to see the self-vote? After declaring me the town read you're most sure of? I'll happily say I'll do it because I'm not expecting to have to go through with it. You on the other hand should be 100% expecting me to have to do it if you're town, so why would you encourage someone you thoroughly believe to be town to self-vote?
Doesn't makes sense. You're scum, that was a threat to me and a not-so-subtle reminder to everyone about the incident that a lot of people found scummy. I'm scared of neither.

Firstly, congratulations, you're playing a game when I'm town.
I don't really want to see the self vote. I have, for a long time now, said I have a town read from you. You're tunnelled and convinced of your own reasoning, but you're still town. However, I want everyone to remember just how

completely and utterly useless

you've been

for the entire game

after my flip. First there was the "Vote unvote L_C" debacle from D1, and you've spent two days now doing

nothing

but attacking me.
I really can't wait to read your first post tomorrow.

2) You're being lynched because of your epic activity. What crap. There are plenty of people in plenty of games that post as prolifically if not more so than you. Tar is one of those in this game, yet it's your head on the chopping block not his, and that's because you slipped and your scumbuddy made a hash of defending you. Activity =/= Lynched, Scummy Activity = Lynched.

Way to completely misrepresent my point there. What I'm trying to point out is that there are players in this game who have done far scummier things than me, but they're getting away with it because they're not posting. Just look at Tar's vote on me.

It's been a pleasure, SC. Enjoy tomorrow's mess.

---

Actually, that last quoted sentence has ALWAYS been the reason I was pushing for a MoS claim. Thanks a lot for bringing it up again when I was hoping it would stay hidden in the Day 2 discussions for a bit longer. (I'd forgotten I'd posted it in the thread, but what I was doing was an attempt to capitalize on the possibility that scum-MoS wasn't paying attention to Day 2 actions regardless.)

Since you just made it much less likely that MoS won't figure out what's going on (NOT happy about that), now would be a good time to explain that request for a MoS claim in full.

Wow, now it's my fault because you're being vague, and not being very good about keeping secrets? You had forgotten you posted it in the thread? That is just lies, my friend. I asked you about it, and you responded to it directly.
Look at this post:

I've also spotted a contradiction. This is what you said about the MoS claim yesterday:

b) Santos/MoS (claiming vanilla as nonlead doesn't fit, which is why I tried to force MoS to claim before reading the thread).

This was the same post you said that MoS and Head_Honcho are "semiconfirmed" town.
Now you're not only saying that MoS and Head_Honcho

are

town, but also:

- As for why to ask for a MoS claim: I won't reveal fully just yet (since there's a chance my plan will still work, albeit a small one), but it's for exactly the same reason that a player was asked to claim in one of the games I linked above.

Now you want a claim, for different reasons? You want him to claim, even though he's town? Something doesn't add up.

And your reply:

Should I attribute this post to ignorance or malice? The former says you need to reread the game, the latter says you're scum.

In case you didn't notice, Percy, the original theory I was working on (the one that said that MoS was likely scum) was disproved by Kise's death reveal. There is a reason for the new theory, but revealing it before a full massclaim is done would be counterproductive.

...now you may be telling the truth, and just very confused. The ploy seems pretty bizarre, given that "MoS is town" for reasons I can't fathom.

If you were being honest about it, then I'm sorry for raining on your parade. But it's a pretty dumb gambit and it's been poorly executed, so don't pin this one on me, kthx.

---

Fishy's unvote reads town to me. Deadline is very, very close. He must have known that rofl and SC would be frothing at the mouth to line up his lynch if he's wrong (which he isn't, by the way). He could have said nothing, kept his head down, and there'd be another dead townie. I can't see Fishy as scum.

Ironically enough, I think the most likely reaction tomorrow will be those on the wagon criticising Fishy for jumping off, even though I'll flip town. Trust me, they'll find a reason.

[Percy]

"Everyone"? Just who is "everyone"?

Oh, I forgot, you're Empking, and you don't answer questions.

Don't let this guy survive to endgame, guys. A dead Empking is a good Empking.

[Percy]

@Fishy- you list a bunch of points why you don't like my case but none of which makes me scum. I would love some questions asked of me. The post length has made me lose interest in this game.

Oh bullshit.

You pushed my wagon for no good reason, lied about my meta, and told me I was "taking a back seat". This was after you voted SC for his case against me.

I asked you questions.

You ignored them

.

Now you're pleading "I don't know what's going on" and "It's really your fault for not engaging me".

Urgh. Kill the scum.

[Percy]

"Everyone"? Just who is "everyone"?

The people who find your attacks on Tar very scummy.

And who would they be? There isn't a single person who has called me scummy for my behaviour with Tar. In fact, in my re-read I can only see people saying that they find Tar's play scummy.
You're just making it all up as you go along. Push the wagon with more lies, please.

What question haven't I answered? (This is like the third/fourth time I've asked you that now.)

Oh, you're frustrated. Nice touch.
I asked (in summary, at the end of my post 836):

-Why did you think that L_C was more likely a cop after qwints' claim?
-Do you think anyone agrees with you?
-If so, who? If not, why am I the only one worthy of comment?
-Why did you mention naive speculation, when none occurred?
-Why did you ask for the "flavour" of Tar's "protect"?

Your reply:

I answered the second question and I didn't want to know the nature of [Tar's[/b] protect. Does Tar even have a protect?

I honestly can't see where you answered the second question. You backtracked on the Tar issue completely, asked a fairly scummy question, and ignored everything else.

[Percy]

If there is only one group, [Fishy is] more likely the scum.

How so?

Quick note: With no deadline and a metric frakton of power roles dead, now would be a REALLY good time for massclaim.

Agreed.

[Percy]

Why are people not voting Percy?

Maybe its just me but recent posts don't seem to be that useful to the town.

*howls with rage*

Can you (1) stop pushing my wagon with the stupidest posts with the most disingenuous reasons ever and (2)

ANSWER MY QUESTIONS GODDAMN

.

[Percy]

Also, how do people feel about a massclaim?

[Percy]

Was Elan alone as a cop? No? Then I was right.

I also explained when the person wanted further information.

It does not follow that you were right, and you know it. You said qwints' claim made it more likely that L_C was a cop, and you never explained why. Oh, you gave a few vague, incoherent statements (appealing to naive speculation that didn't happen, for instance), but no explanation. You also singled out me as the scummy one, without looking at anyone else who just slammed their votes on L_C after the claim.

No-one understands why qwints' claim made L_C

more

likely to be a cop. You said that I was scummy for not realising this, but

no-one else does either

. You have never explained, and now you're lying about it.

It looked to me on my read that more people were agreeing with him.

Point out one person. Just one. You're just making shit up, aren't you?

[Percy]

Quotes please.

495 - hascow doesn't get it
502 - Vino doesn't get it
503 - delathi doesn't get it

How about you quote something that supports anything of what you say?

Percy: I say (paraphrase) "I misread people and I thought threy were agreeing with him" and you repond with "Point out where they agreed with him"

You are purposely trolling me right?

Nice paraphrase of what you said:

It looked to me on my read that more people were agreeing with him.

So when you said "more people were", you meant "someone was"? Nice try.

Fishy; Elan is a naive character. It follows that people may think he's a naive cop.

Yes, but no-one did. You said I was wrong to hammer in the face of naive speculation, when what you really meant was "Percy should have thought that a claim of Elan means naive cop, which means L_C is probably a real cop, and so he shouldn't have voted". Even if this broad, generous paraphrase is what you meant all along, why am I the only one to ever get any attention from you on this issue?

*Maths was used in the making of this post*

No it wasn't. Mathematics is easily abused, and sounds far more convincing than it often is. Here's why.

I'd expect to see a claim that unusual from a townie about 10% of the time (that's pretty arbitrary, but right kind of ballpark). I'd expect to see a claim that unusual from scum slightly more- maybe 20% of the time. So assuming two thirds of the players in the game are town, given this claim I would think that Percy's claim was about 50% likely to come from scum, and 50% likely to come from town (if it was his only post of the game).

If it's just as likely to come from scum as town, then it's a nulltell. You seem to suggest that nulltells are, in fact, scumtells.
If your logic goes:
"Weird claims are twice as likely (10% to 20%) to come from scum"
then why follow it up with:
"His claim is just as likely (50% each) to come from scum as town"
?

On the buddying, after my thoughts in my last post, I would say that Korlash buddying isn't dramatically less likely than Korlash chainsawing- if these actions were in some odd way in isolation, I'd probably think Percy about 40-45% scum (as opposed to a baseline of 33%).

OK, I can see that you're saying that Korlash's play is a mild scumtell against me.

On the slip, I find it pretty unlikely that Percy would make such a mistake. As town or scum. If he's scum, I can't see that it was at any point a deliberate tactic, or way of avoiding the consequences of his hammer. In other words, I find it more likely that he worded his hammer post badly than he decided afterwards to claim to have seen a guilty post. It's marginally more likely that scum make a stupid mistake like his misinterpretation, since they have less reason to think hard about claims etc.. Again, this might raise my suspicions of Percy to 40-45% scum.

Again, all I have to say on this issue is what I posted over 500 posts ago:

As I have already explained, this is a dumb fucking plan. I said "HEY GUYS QWINTS GOT A GUILTY ON L_C", and why? Just so I could get mad at Santos for saying "I'm annoyed at the doctors for not protecting him". Yes, a masterstroke!

Yes, I didn't think about it thoroughly, and I got completely carried away. The argument that townies think more about claims and are less likely to make these kinds of mistakes is garbage.

So the first point is confusing, and the other two points say "mild scumtell". If you want to say "two mild scumtells maketh a lynch", then say that, and vote for me. You are not expressing anything mathematically sound, so mathematics is a very poor language to use in expressing yourself.

SC is so tilted it's amazing - encouraging others to abuse mathematics to help push his misdirected, distracting wagon. Urgh.

Percy, you made a comment that Fishy and myself were having an interesting back and forth. Now that is mostly over, what are your opinions of what was said? What does it tell you if anything?

Let me postpone my conclusions and instead ask you some questions. After they're answered, I'll give you what I've got.
(1) Are you supporting my lynch, a massclaim, or both?
(2) What were your views on Antarctic Mafia?
(3) Who might be the scum trying to stop my wagon?

[Percy]

Gorrad may have put Elan in for people to think he's naive without people thinking he's naive.

What?

2. You quicklynched.

Was it just me who quicklynched?

Percy; Do you honest think that "people" is the same as "someone"? Really?

No, and that's the point. Why did you think

anyone

thought my play with Tar was scummy? Saying "whoops, I thought

more

people thought that" hides the fact that

no-one

thought that, and you are just making shit up.

Percy if you claim I said something. I'd like the quotes given when I ask for quotes to be mine.

Then be clear about what you want. Also, I've quoted everything I'm referring to at least twice, with the same arguments I'm referring to. Go and read them yourself.

I'm convinced by the fact you create a story about a day investigating cop rather than say you made a mistake.

That

was

my mistake - assuming there was a guilty result on L_C. What other explanation could I have given? I don't understand what you're saying.

Charming. If you'll look at the post you'll notice I asked him what he thought the percentage chance was for each tell. The fact that in answering that question he's challenged his gut read on you (although hasn't made the step of voting you) has little to do with me.

Although I'd say if it was an intentional act of persuasion I'd wear it proudly because it would mean I'd convinced someone to vote for someone I think is scum, something I'm having obvious trouble doing now. I want people to vote for you, I want you to be the lynch, no apologies.

OK then, you go right ahead. Use every underhanded tactic you can think of to convince people to vote for me. Encourage others to ignore the rest of the game, ignore everything else I've done in the game, and look only at attaching arbitrary numbers to the things you have decided are scummy. Give scum every reason in the world to jump on my wagon. Make sure they've got a great defence tomorrow for when I flip town.

[Percy]

Gorrad may have put Elan in for people to think he's naive without people thinking he's naive.

What?

Gorrad can't tell the future.

OK, so you're saying that you think the claim should have been more thoroughly analysed. This is probably true, but amazingly easy to say in hindsight.

2. You quicklynched.

Was it just me who quicklynched?

Irrelevant.

False. Highly relevant.

Percy; Do you honest think that "people" is the same as "someone"? Really?

No, and that's the point. Why did you think anyone thought my play with Tar was scummy? Saying "whoops, I thought more people thought that" hides the fact that no-one thought that, and you are just making shit up.

Are you denying that Tar thought your actions were scummy?

No, but thanks for the blatant misrep. The point is, Tar was alone before you, yet you claimed "everyone" agreed with him. Then you said "whoops, I thought there were more people who agreed with him", rather than "whoops, I thought someone agreed with him". So, you lied, you see? Is that clear enough for you? I wouldn't want to say something ambiguous in the slightest, given your amazing ability to twist whatever I say into your own misguided agenda.

---

If your lynch isn't going to happen today then I will support a mass claim.

OK, got it. You didn't answer whether you wanted my lynch, and I think it will be hard for people to tell when my lynch "isn't going to happen".

I really doubt a townie lynch would be this hard.

WIFOM. Also, the case against me is crap, and the people pushing it are either tunnelled beyond belief or using the worst reasons I have ever heard.

---

Well, now my thoughts on the Fishy/Sotty exchange.

I think Fishy is town. I already expressed why here:

Fishy's unvote reads town to me. Deadline is very, very close. He must have known that rofl and SC would be frothing at the mouth to line up his lynch if he's wrong (which he isn't, by the way). He could have said nothing, kept his head down, and there'd be another dead townie. I can't see Fishy as scum.

Ironically enough, I think the most likely reaction tomorrow will be those on the wagon criticising Fishy for jumping off, even though I'll flip town. Trust me, they'll find a reason.

I think he was pulled in by SC's insane uselessness recently, but I still think he reads town. Sotty's explanation for it:

...he keeps jumping back and forth on you. Often it reads like he is scum and you are town and he is torn about wanting to be linked to your flip.

...is possible (though I think less likely), but it seems disingenuous since she thinks I'm scum, invalidating the theory. Given that her scumread on Fishy is based on me being town, but she's still voting me, is very interesting. Now I asked her:

(3) Who might be the scum trying to stop my wagon?

...and her response:

3] Fishy, for reasons I believe I have already explained. RTB, because he is doing nothing but hounding rolf. He needs to comment more on the rest of the game. I don't even know what he thinks about your wagon at this point. Other suspects..? One of the many lurkers I would say.

Something isn't adding up. Fishy is scum trying to stop my wagon because I'm scum, but is also scum because I'm town and he didn't want to be associated with a mislynch? Only one of these things could be true. Now, apparently, the exchange is "mostly over", which I thought was odd - if you think someone is scum, why stop engaging with them? Very confusing.

Of all the possible explanations, the best ones I can come up with are:
(1) Sotty is scum, and has done this to appear to be scumhunting while pushing my wagon.
(2) Sotty is scum

with

Fishy, and they're hedging their bets and distancing.
(3) Sotty is town with a strong gut read of Fishyscum, but hasn't been able to consistently articulate why.

Leaning towards (1), but I'm willing to entertain (3) more seriously than (2).

[Percy]

I have stated that I think there is two scum teams and that you and Fishy are one of each. I have also stated that if there is only one scum team, Fishy is more likely to be scum because of his flip flopping.

This was in response to my quoting of one of your posts:

...he keeps jumping back and forth on you. Often it reads like he is scum and

you are town

and he is torn about wanting to be linked to your flip.

Inconsistency remains. I can't see why your vote is not on Fishy.

It reminds me of our exchange in the game-that-still-gives-me-nightmares, which is also troubling for me seeing as you were town in the end.

Yes, and you are as wrong now as you were then. Strange that you would bring this up. In that game, I had a pretty strong town read of you - and I was right. I don't have that read on you in this game.

You hammered causing the quick lynch.

How is it relevant BTW?

Ah, you see, there it is. I was part of a lynch (though I would hardly call it quick), and happened to be the hammer. But instead of looking at all of those who were involved, you concentrate just on the hammerer (me), when I at least tried to express why I was voting. L_C looked

incredibly

scummy, and everyone else was happy to consider qwints' CC good enough reason to vote for him. You're perverting history to suit your agenda.

Percy: Are you denying that I agreed with him? Because I'm one and anyone else would be more.

Yes, anyone else would be more.

EXCEPT THERE IS NO-ONE ELSE

. At least, no-one else when you posted.

I'm willing to see where this goes.

Vote: Percy

Great. Another wagon jumper looking for an information lynch.


Finally, @SC, I'd like to share with you a little piece of wisdom that ABR once posted. I can't think of anything more relevant for you and your uselessness.

This is a fact of life, people. This is not real life, its a game, and people act deliberately extravagant and against the majority's decision all the time. What kind of peer pressure can you possibly have on someone through your computer screen? Balance that against the satisfaction of pulling the trigger on some annoying schmuck that has been on your case the entire game for the most terrible reasons you couldn't even make up. You just want his ignorant head blown away to smithereens and are aching to pull the trigger because you can almost sense the scumminess oozing off his body, and once you kill him you think that you'll be all cleared anyway, and you will be hailed as some kind of hero for having an independent will and being the only one who 'saw his slips' to save the day. But what often happens is at the end of the day you've just killed some innocent hardhead that happened to think you were unbalanced or illogical and you would have served the town better by rolling over and die instead of drawing all the attention away from the scum and wasting precious time and discussion.

I strongly advocate a massclaim. Lynch me afterwards if you still want to, but lock scum into their fakeclaims NOW.

[Percy]

Percy; And I admitted I was wrong in there being someone else. But I guess that's why you edited that part from your quote.

There was nothing to edit out. The only post I could see where you "admitted" you were wrong was here:

It looked to me on my read that more people were agreeing with him.

...and I've already explained how this was a crap explanation.
So how could I edit out content that wasn't in the post to start with?

Percy; Who else claimed that they were only voting LC because of Qwint's guilty result? That's why I'm concentrating on you because you're the only one trying to wash away responsibility for the lynch.

No-one made the same mistake as me. That's not the point I'm making, and you know it. I'm not trying to wash away any responsibility - I'm asking why you think I'm the only one who needs to stand accountable. You've said that I was a quicklyncher, that I scummily hammered the town cop - now I'm scum because I'm defending myself against these accusations? Twist, twist away!

Are you seriously appealing to ABR? If there was ever a player to push 100% towards a lynch on little more than a gut read, ABR is surely it. The only difference between how ABR would have played this game compared to how I've played it is ABR would have had you lynched weeks ago.

Yes, I am appealing to ABR. What I quoted was quite wise, worth keeping in mind, and 100% true in this game. If you think you're emulating ABR in this game, you're deeply mistaken.

[Percy]

You were a quicklyncher.

Sure, I was part of a mislynching wagon. The lynch itself was not quick - it took up the majority of Day 1.

And you did scummily hammer the town cop.

Fail.
1. Why scummily? You have never explained this.
2. How could I know he was the cop? Again you're using retrospective arguments to try and inflate your weak case.

You are scum because you only defend yourself by going "The people voting me are scum".

More blatant misrep.

---

Because I think it is more likely there is

two

scum groups and you are both in different ones. I would vote Fishy if a wagon came up and yours died down, but I really think we need to lynch you today.

Well let me point out again that you said:

...he keeps jumping back and forth on you. Often it reads like he is scum

and you are town

and he is torn about wanting to be linked to your flip.

...rather than

...he keeps jumping back and forth on you. Often it reads like he is scum

and you are scum from a different faction

and he is torn about wanting to be linked to your flip.

...or even leaving it out, like this:

...he keeps jumping back and forth on you. Often it reads like he is scum and he is torn about wanting to be linked to your flip.

The reason, I think, is this. You believe Fishy is scum. The only reason you're not voting him (even though there's a greater likelihood, in your mind, of Fishy being scum) is that there's currently a wagon on me.

Now if Fishy and I are not on the same faction and he's scum, then I can see your point if I'm town - he wouldn't want to be associated with a mislynch, so he's going to dance around it. However,

he has no way of knowing whether it will be a mislynch

, because we're not in the same faction. If I'm scum from a different faction, your criticism disappears - why would Fishy want to equivocate about a scumlynch? Even then, why would Fishy not take the opportunity to off someone who didn't share his WC?

I've looked at Fishy's behaviour, and I think it says he's town. You, however, have come to the completely opposite conclusion for reasons I can't fathom, and aren't following through on your suspicions - you called an end to your conversation!

Care to explain?

---

why are we still on this day?

Because there hasn't been a lynch yet. I take it your plan is to insult the town until they do what you want?

[Percy]

@Empking: The L_C wagon was very, very long. The only thing that saved him was that he claimed cop. When there was (what everyone thought was) a counterclaim, everyone jumped back on the wagon. The "don't lynch this person" came from the fact that we thought L_C was the cop, and even if he wasn't, that we could deal with him later. With that gone, there was no excuse to keep him alive any more.

You're trying to say "You should have realised this" and "This was obvious", but I object to your
(1) singling me out and
(2) insistence that things were obvious when they weren't at the time.

The game is stalling. I wanted a massclaim so I could be around to help with the analysis and keep Tar in check. I didn't want my lynch, because I'm a townie and I've fought very, very hard to stay alive. However, I've realised that there's no way you guys will let me survive until endgame, and giving the remaining town PRs another night (if there are any left) will probably be a good idea.

I've tried to lay out my thoughts as clearly as I can, so hopefully there will be some insight to be had tomorrow. For ease of reading, I think the following people need closer attention.

Empking - I've said why a million times.
Sajin - Worst wagon pushing I've seen in a long time.
Sotty7 - Scumvibes from her. Case is in its infancy, but I think she'll deserve closer scrutiny later.
MoS and HH - Even though (somehow) they've been cleared by some argument of Tar's, both jumped on my wagon for almost no reason at all.
Tarhalindur - I've had a few interrogations of him, and he of me, and I think he is far too willing to lead the town and delay explanations until convenient times. His attitude towards my lynch has been pretty bad too.
Riceballtail - I don't like the attitude towards roflcopter.
Snow White - Will have to answer for Sens' behaviour.

Probably town:
Fishy, SerialClergyman, roflcopter (grudgingly, but it's true), Vino.

So I'll take the bother out of trying to whip this game into action again by outing powerroles.

Unvote, Vote: Percy

Finish me off, I'm done fighting.

Start finding a new place, SC. I want photos. Also an admission of your utter uselessness, but I'm probably reaching too far there. Also, Fishy, don't abuse maths, it hurts me physically.

I enjoyed this game. I regret my mistake, but it was an honest one. Thanks Gorrad, it was a pleasure.

*grabs popcorn*

[Percy]

Percy. If you are town then surely you realise the most fool hardy thing to do is to L-1 yourself? I watched you in TonyMontana's hip hop mafia (over)and frankly would have expected far more from you.

You shame me with your praise.

Unvote

. Fishy asked for it and appears to be interested in actually looking at the game as well (rather than complaining that I'm not lynched yet), so I'll stick around.

I really had had enough. I thought the best thing to do would be for me to be gone and for people to read my posts tomorrow and think I was on to something after my flip. If you take a look at today, I've been one of the very few people who have talked about anything other than me. The game

was

stalling, and I couldn't separate my desire for a massclaim well enough from my desire to stay alive. I still think it's a good idea, but I'd

much

rather hunt some scum the old fashioned way.

I've tried to point out how people have been contributing scummily to my wagon, and making (what I think are) good arguments. However, I seem to have made at least one person more suspicious of me:

Percy lynch seems like so much hard work it makes me believe there must be scum actively muddying the waters to stop it.

...and otherwise it seems to only make people curious and conclude that the best way to resolve matters is to just kill me and get it over with.
(Actually, read all of Sotty's 953 for yourself, I think it's quite interesting.)

As for mathematics, I concede I was wrong on the issue of the "weird claim" in the way your model was constructed. It's actually quite a nice model, now that I think about it.

However, I will object to the way you added your percentages - you really should be taking an average there, and get a figure of about 45%, not 70%. It also assumes that everything I've said that

isn't

more likely to be said by scum than by town gives you the baseline, and I think that doesn't match up with your current opinion of me.

[Percy]

@Mod: I am requesting a deadline!

I think Fishy is right about the game stalling, and I think the major issue is that most people don't want me lynched, but can't see another player worth lynching. With me gone, there will be lots to analyse, and there will be less factionism in this game. If people can get their act together and lynch someone else, then all the better. We need impetus, people, and I like this game too much to just let it die.

@Fishy: Your mathematics is impeccable, and I apologise for questioning it.

@Tar: I like your case against RBT. In fact, that post has increased my townread of you significantly.

Right now, I think the scummiest players are:
Empking
Sajin
RBT
I would be happy with the lynch of any of these players.

Fishy; Why is admitting that you wrong bad and denying that and refusing to read the thread (doing a Percy) pro-town.

Again, rather than respond to the specific accusation, Empking asks an aggressive meta-question intended to scare off Fishy and blacken my name with baseless accusations.

Empking; Why is posting bad denying that (doing an Empking) pro-town.

Can we lynch this guy already?

[Percy]

I will have limited access until the First of October, but I will check the thread at least once every two or three days.

[Percy]

Empking; Why is posting bad denying that (doing an Empking) pro-town.

Percy; Where did I say it was?

Percy; How was I intending to scare off Fishy?
Are you just making stuff up?
Is "Blacken my name" melodramatic or overdefensive?

I was making fun of your terrible post. The fact that you took it seriously is *hilarious*. Empking is scum, guys, just check him out in ISO for some scummy goodtimes.

b) his alignment is critical.

I understand that now. It sucks, because I don't know how much my townflip will help the town.

Percy - I have to say that your play has been so impressive over the past month or two. Whether you're town or scum, you haven't stooped to insults or OMGUS or given up (apart from the self-vote, which I think was a gambit anyway) or lashed out, in fact you've had a number of solid attempts to change the town's focus off you and on to other people or a mass claim or another event. I think if the town had been more active you'd have either been successful or lynched a lot earlier and you'd be spared this irritating impasse. And I know that I've been obstinant in my suspicions of you, so my opinion is unlikely to be reciprocated, but I felt it had to be said that whatever your alignment is, I've personally had nothing but admiration for the way you've kept at it.

Thank you.
I did give up for a little while, because goddamn this game has just weighed on me for so long. I'm glad I stuck around, especially to talk a little more about scumSotty. It's going to be interesting watching everyone's reaction tomorrow, but the fact that my lynch is essentially an information lynch means laying blame for the mislynch will be harder.

nagging voice has been saying for a bit that his play and claim is even consistent with UNK SK.

You've got to be kidding me.


OK, so to reiterate, here are my scumsuspects:

Empking
Sajin
RBT
Sotty

I've tried to keep my posts about these players (except perhaps RBT, who I suspect largely on the back of Tar's case) brimming with information and links, so after my flip tomorrow I hope people take a look at my work in a new light.

I've made so many "about to be lynched" posts, so I'm just going to call this one here. I know the only reason I'm still alive right now is mod neglect of the game.

It's been a pleasure, guys. Go town.

[Percy]

Lolz, I missed that, HH. Here it is for everyone's benefit, just in case you think he's exaggerating there:

How is saying "the likely cop" different from saying "LC" they're both referring to the same person in the same manner. Its just that the first one is easier to remember.

Yeah.

[Percy]

BUMP!