California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Let's cut to the chase.

Gaspar has already figured out who the scum is, let's wait for his list, and start lynching.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

BTW I expect that I will be able to determine zwet's alignment

from the way he confirms.

It's a specialty of mine.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

/confirmza

I know DGB is lying. Do I have to change my avatar? I'd prefer not to.

ANALYSIS:

"confirm

za

" - made to appear cool, even though he hesitated, wondering if I could really know his alignment from this alone.

"I know DGB is lying." - sounding nervous.

OUTPUT:

63% scum.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Are we required to change avatars?

You don't absolutely have to, but those that don't, move up the lynch priority list.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

To tell you the truth, I'm still incredibly confused about

how

this game works. I've tried rereading and rereading the rules. . .

Does anyone have a very clear and concise explanation of the mechanics in this game? I don't feel that I can start playing until I understand. I mean, I don't need to understand completely, but I'm really

really

confused about it all.

-Bridges

P.S. All previous posts were made by DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I agree that Day 1 is the most important day and it is not random at all. It's like the first few moves in chess.

I disagree that we should not use Condorcet. Scum lists are often very revealing, and the Condorcet votes are exactly like a scum list. We can use it to ensnare scumbuddies, once we've caught a live one.

I'm going to have to do something I've never done in any mafia game before, namely, read the rules. Until my eyes are burning.

===============

In completely different news, how can I ever hope to amaze the whole crew with my psychic reading of zwet's alignment if he refuses to post with his usual combination of brevity AND especially frequency?

I need some material. Zwet where are you? You're not hiding from me are you?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

DGB, you're tunneling awfully hard on zwet.

Not in the least. His alignment is so transparent that I like to get a strong vibe as early in the game as possible. The reactions from the rest of the players are extremely telling. In this respect, zwet is an invaluable asset to the town, he truly has no match.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Talillan 119

advocate(s) chosen by scum for subsequent scenes. They will still get the useful information whether they be scum or town. They are kind of like a weird version of night-kill choices for the scum.

Your word choice here seems to imply you know that scum don't have night kills. I just reread the rules (again. . .) and I couldn't find anything to suggest this. I don't like using slips anymore ( I used to really like them, but have recently found them to not work well) to find scum, but this one looks better than most.

I'd want to vote for you, but I haven't talked to my other head.

DGB: PLEASE check your inbox. I sent you a url that we can talk to eachother with.


-Bridges

Tags removed. Please use bold only for votes. - Mod

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Gaspar has convinced me about the MafiaJin thing. I have a block of time reserved for reading the instructions carefully tomorrow. I will vote accordingly but only after I'm familiar with the rules.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Rules read and understood. It wasn't so hard, actually. I get it. I'll explain it all to my hydra.

What's up with KY Krew? Vanishing act already? Or hard lurking? InHim is famous for vanishing acts, but raj isn't, so I'm leaning towards intentional lurking.

I think zwet is scum, he's real nervous and tentative, and not at all his usual self. I've never seen him that scummy. It's like he's trying to mete out his content to slow down the rate at which he's going to inevitably get caught. At some point, he showed that he has no idea what the soundtrack business is about, which is something his buddies, if he has any, might have explained to him. Mind you, he might not be paying attention to either the game or the QT. So although I'm strongly leaning scum for his alignment, I can't decide whether the soundtrack ignorance means he's actually town, or some kind of scum on his own.

MafiaJin needs to be taken care of, he's the forefront, and zwet and KY Krew are on the backburner.

In more positive news, my worries that players like Gaspar and Mighty Orbots may be scum are eased by their pro-town dedication and excellent logic, but I must remind myself to remain paranoid. They have fooled many before.

-DGB

vote: MafiaJin

, zwet, KY Krew, [everyone else], [Gaspar, Mighty Orbots], GoofballsAndBaloons

Tag fixed. Only bold actual votes, please. - Mod

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Gaspar, if MafiaJin does come up some form of scum, what do you think that says about the other three people he took with him on stage?

If you don't mind my answering this question that is not addressed to me, I would say that if MafiaJin flips scum, at least one of the three people he took with him is scum, with nearly 100% certainty. Quite possibly exactly one.

Players chosen at random have closer to 1/3 chance of being scum than 2/3 chance of being scum. So there is no reason not to take a buddy along with him, if he were town, chances are pretty good that's what he'd end up with choosing a scum randomly anyway. Why waste that opportunity of bringing a buddy of his choice along, while keeping within the confines of what he would have done by chance? I am sure that opportunity was taken.

If he flips scum, and the players decide to examine which players he brought along with him, the chances of the town hitting scum among the players he brought with him are, again if choosing at random, nearly the same as if the town was choosing among the rest of the players, removing any advantage for the town to start lynching those players. That's because with bringing one buddy, the chances are 1/3, which is quite close to what it is among the remaining players.

Now I don't know if the MafiaJin hydra is a maverick risk taker in general. But that's what he'd need to be to have the guts to take 2/3 buddies along with him. If he's lynched and flips scum, the town will be shooting fish in a barrel. Players with better understanding of the members of this hydra will be able to make a better guess than me.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

DGB, I'm not really clear on your thinking here. Why is it you think scum would want members of their scum team on-camera? I could see scum going either way; scum on camera can't get lynched, but more scum off camera means they get more influince over the lynch. I don't really think the day 1 on camera decision should be at all hard for the town people on camera to get right, considering there are two advocates and all that, so I don't really think getting more or less scum votes on camera are likely to matter.

I can easily see a hydra like MafiaJin think no further than wanting to avoid being lynched.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

On a side note, this comment, on camera, is kind of worrying.

If I drive, we will lose one of our numbers. For I will no longer be an innocent. You see, I had a choice. I know Valetine is meant to drive. However, if I convinced you to let me drive, I would get to join the Enemy.

Pro-town people can choose to flip and become scum at certain points? Really?

Both advocates are voting to follow Valentine Wiggin. CKD is probably being truthful about changing alignment. But which alignment? WIFOM here I come.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Elmosaurian, I get that they are probably both saying the truth about defending the "good choice." But are they both advocating in favor of the choice that is "good for scum" or "good for town?" Or am I missing something.

I just realized my vote makes no sense, MafiaJin is on camera.

-DGB

unvote

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I don't like that Hewitt seems to be implying that those on camera should be considering doing something long term this scene other than agreeing with the advocates on day one. If both of them are saying that one of the choices is the good choice then that's what they should be doing.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

There are few possibilities:

POSSIBILITY 1

(1) Advocate A is scum and pushing the pro-scum choice.
(2) Advocate B is lying and has become scum, not town, and is also pushing the pro-scum choice.

POSSIBILITY 2

(1) Advocate A is town and pushing the pro-town choice.
(2) Advocate B is telling the truth and has become town, not scum, and is also pushing the pro-town choice.

I'm not sure what hewitt is trying to get at, it's a little strange.

Meanwhile I'm not liking KY Krew's intense lurking. There's no excuse in a game like this with posting requirements. Am I understanding correctly that the scum will pick which townies are in endgame? If that's the case KY Krew or its replacement might make the shortlist.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

@zwet

How about some image that combines a demon and an angel?

It shouldn't be too difficult. It's kinda scummy how you appear to be stalling thinking up the obvious.

In other news, KY Krew's SL vote really reeks. Of what? Could it be diesel? Bus fumes? KY Krew is voting SL for NOT BEING CLEAR??? What kind of vote is that, when you clearly show (amidst denials) that you're totally not paying attention at all, and that nothing, nothing at all in your entire single post, shows evidence of having read anything but a couple of paragraphs related to your job.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

zwet, did you read the rules for your job?

If you do not have a Role in the current Scene, you may post an image On Camera. This image may contain no text of any kind (in any language), and must be no larger than 800x600. You may do this twice per Scene. You may not post images if you are in a Scene. Do not attempt to communicate through means other than the image itself (for example, renaming the image and hosting it somewhere yourself) - such an an attempt is a violation of Rule 6, and may result in a modkill.

You're supposed to post it on camera. Not here.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

vote: [KY Krew

, zwet], Shadowlurker, [everyone else], [Gaspar, Mighty Orbots], GoofballsAndBaloons

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I'm not sold. My gut is telling me this is overblown (and I'm incredibly wary of slips anyway). I don't see that his actions in putting himself on stage are the massive crime that Gaspar is making them out to be (at best a mistake, though). I don't feel the slip is particularly worthwhile. In short, I'm not a fan of the wagon.

Zwet, otoh, I think is looking pretty damn scummy. His post rebutting DGB is unusually long and detailed for him, and was already his second post addressing the situation; he's worried enough about it that he has to address it twice before giving any thoughts on the game. Yet when I quizzed him about it, he claimed that it was impossible to defend against anyway. So why spend such effort trying (and yes, for zwet that was a relatively large amount of effort). Then there's the buddying up to DGB, the person attacking him, which screams scum to me. I really think zwet is a much better lynch than MafiaJin.

-Shanba

I agree with this and sort of disagree with my hydra, DGB. I think Zwet is taking advantage of DGB unfocusing on Zwet and attacking MafiaJin. I think Zwet is very likely scum if MafiaJin is not scum. I'm still deciding whether the MafiaJin slip is legitimate or not. I don't see them both as scum as the moment. I need to rethink and consult with DGB. Oh wait, MafiaJin isn't in right now. That makes it easy. But I don't see the KY vote reasoning, don't understand it. Sorry to undermine you DGB, but

unvote

vote: [Zwet, KY Krew], Shadowlurker, [everyone else], [Gaspar, Mighty Orbots], GoofballsAndBaloons


-Bridges

Tags removed. Only votes/unvotes at the bottom of the post are counted. - Mod

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Could somebody familiar with zwet's meta give me a rough idea of what you think is his typical scum and town behavior? (It seems like he's posting less than I would expect him to given his reputation, but I don't really agree with the buddying thing; he feels like a typical inexperienced player who is more focused on analyzing his attackers than on what else is happening in the game.)

I'm going to quote what DGB explained to me in our quicktopic. I hope she doesn't mind:

"Now, for zwet. Zwet usually makes a gazillion posts without any thinking whatsoever, or content. Here, he's being serious, and not posting as much. "

-Bridges

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I really don't like the MafiaJin lynch. I've never played with Sajin, but MafiaSSK isn't exactly the brightest character and is prone to be frustratingly selfish.

That's absolutely true, very well put. However, mercifully, there's the Sajin factor, so I'm not ready to make excuses for MafiaJin. But MafiaJin is ON camera, I don't think he's lynchable today.

Don't feel like Mighty Orbots' post is indicative of scum, just a bit of unwise probing and don't think elmosaurian's post seemed forced.

That's probably because the scum here is KY Krew. As evidenced by entering the game with a vote on you, for, no joke, "NOT BEING CLEAR." I mean, seriously. I want KY Krew dead much more than zwet, KY Krew is more scummy by a full order of magnitude but we have an inter-hydra disagreement here between B&B and DGB. ShadowLurker, I'm surprised

you

're not rewarding KY Krew with your own big fat vote.

GoofballsandBalloons: I'm 3rd on your list but I don't think you've pointed out anything I've done. Do you think KY Krew was badly trying to distance or what? It's fine if you don't feel like answering this question at this moment.

Yes, it's for distancing. But already I'm reconsidering this since you seem reasonable and non-manipulative so far. I'd like to see more from you.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

raj confuses himself sometimes.

unvote

stuff

Scum.

stuff

Forced.

What kind of worthless, one-word "analysis" is that? Of all that's been said, including some actual issues, that's what you choose to pick on?

Playing as pro-town as possible should be everyone's agenda - it gives scum a much harder time to pick endgamers. Lurking is :nothelpful:, our bad.

"Playing as pro-town as possible" is Captain Obvious, but "it gives scum a much harder time to pick endgamers?" What are you talking about. That's a stragegy? Scum will have plenty to choose from among players with bad judgment, players that don't find the scum suspicious, etc.

We aren't quite ready to jump into the Scene - inHim would like some more time to hunt.

So we are to expect more lurking from you despite your own proposed strategy that the rest of us should behave in a pro-town manner?

I'll look back at that later.

Later, later, always later.

Reading On-Camera, ckd will have to be lynch, iio (in inHim's opinion) - too much WIFOM to let scum infuse the endgame with.

What if CKD is convincingly town?

I seem to recall a short run of decision votes that may clue us into players wanting to hurry along the Scene - I'll look at that later.

Later, later, always later.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

You know, KY Krew could switch (actor) roles with Talilan to take her off-stage...

That means you think Talilan is more scum than KY Krew? I think KY Krew is more scum. Let's debate this.

I think KY Krew is faking paying attention to the game, is making ridiculous half-arsed judgments, hasn't read anything beyond a cursory skimming (otherwise they'd have noticed we have some issues going on, and commented appropriately), threw in a stupid vote for SL (oh yeah, better get the distancing going, that's the least we can do!), and is pretending to offer strategic advice ("let's all play townie!!! except me, I have a license to lurk").

You can make a case that Talilan is being cautious, and perhaps fearing that all is not always what is seen on the surface, tries to dig deeper. It's obvious to me, but maybe not to Talilan.

So Gaspar, if you can make a convincing case that Talilan is scummier than KY Krew, I'm listening. Because if that's the case, they we should make sure that KY Krew and Talilan trade places.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Then I don't understand what you're saying... I'm a few steps behind you on the yellow brick road of logic. If you have the patience to bring me up to speed, I'd appreciate.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I know we can't lynch Talilan today, but I'm still pretty sure I've all ready caught a scum.

You know, KY Krew could switch (actor) roles with Talilan to take her off-stage...

Elmosaurian stated that Talilan cannot be lynched today. I pointed out that techincally, she can.

There's not really anything to "bring you up to speed" on.

That, I got.

We get KY Krew to move himself ON camera, we bring Talilan OFF camera, and we lynch that player.

I thought that when you wrote, in post #240,

You know, KY Krew could switch (actor) roles with Talilan to take her off-stage...

... that you were suggesting that this should be made to happen.

Just to be clear on your meaning, you do not wish for KY Krew to switch places with Talilan, you're only mentioning it as a theoretical possibility?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Goofballoons: I didn't suggest that anything SHOULD happen. I said switching COULD happen. I was speaking only in the hypothetical.

Got it.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

There's always the possibility that if the town chooses something that kills a player they could kill KY.

Indeed.

I also approve the picture if that's the message we still want to send. How about a Valentine heart? Would that be a better message?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Sending in the KY Krew would be a more efficient way to handle that (plus it would allow us to send in specific questions that other people may have.)

We would need to dictate what exactly he's going to say. Any deviation should be under penalty of death.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Didn't have time to post today. Only time to check my modded game. Sorry.

The reason I'm posting this is because I was preparing to do a reread through today but I didn't have time. I mean, I didn't promise a big post today, but I promised

myself

a big post today. I will tomorrow.


-Bridges

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I do realize it's a condorcet system, but I don't like voting unless I'm hammering. It works for me.

It doesn't work for me. That's because, having announced your "policy" of only casting deciding votes, you pull two anti-town stunts in one go.

First, if you're scum, we can't hold hammering a townie against you, and it might allow you to hammer townies and remain unpunished, because, hey, that's your policy.

Second, if you're town, we lose some of our ability to hold real scum accountable for their actions.

Is there a scenario where your policy is pro-town? If so, I'd like to read your explanation.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Not to mention how we can't hold YOU accountable at any time during the game.

@ zwet - You must make a vote with your next post. A long drawn-out Condorcet vote naming every player.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Posting this in both my games

I had prepared to take a lot of time now (an hour before now and then hours after) working on the game.

There is a very serious fire 15-20 minutes away from me near where I go to school and many of my friends are near and are evacuating.
Busy tryin to contact them.


-Bridges

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

And that's pretty much it from Orbots - information, no analysis..."

Thank you for that wikitell, throwing IIoA at us for no valid reason at all. I object to "pretty much it" since Mighty Orbots has, so far, 40

productive

posts, compared to your 6 bizarre ones.

We as KY Krew feel we could cut away some of the "meta-chaff" - zwet and MafiaJin are two that we had in mind - we know we haven't participated as much as some so far, but do feel we are very capable of closing out a game, and moreso than either of those players (again, aware that this shouldn't necessarily excuse us from our actions, but it's a very pertinent point to consider for this game in particular). It's the town's pleasure if we stuntman into the scene or not, and we were thinking of replacing MafiaJin if we did use our action.

Is this fancy talk to suggest that we should policy lynch zwet and MafiaJin in case the scum chooses them for endgame, while pleading that we should keep YOU, because you'd be great at endgame?

Gwd help us all. Vote stays.

I will switch to zwet if he fails to provide Condocet + detailed explanations in his next post.

@ zwet - I'd rather keep my vote on KY Krew. Do oblige me.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

DGB (this question is directed at her part of the hydra):

1. Roughly how many scum do you think are on the current KY Krew wagon?
2. Roughly how many scum do you think are Off Camera, but aren't part of the KY Krew wagon?
3. Roughly how many scum do you think are On Camera (feel free to break the On Camera into proLocke and proValentine groups and guess the number of scum in those groups)?

Let me volunteer something. The way zwet (KY Krew's competing wagon) has been playing, if he were scum, he'd have been bus'ed so hard all our necks would be in a tight twist from the head spinning. That has got me thinking that despite his not paying attention, his slow reaction time with his job, and his appalling hammer-only policy he may, much to my chagrin, be town.

I like your questions because it forces me to think in terms of numbers, something I don't usually do until later in games.

1. We're 20 players. I expect 3-5 scum. Let's say 4. So about 2 scum off camera. I would say 1 scum on the wagon, at the most, if there is one. Despite KY Krew having 4 votes, the case itself isn't getting a huge amount of traction, and zwet is a mega-distraction. The scum won't bus KY Krew when zwet is working so diligently to get himself lynched.

2. One or two. I'm leaning two. I can see BEC as an opportunistic scum voter on the zwet wagon. And of course, KY Krew who voted SL (who is quite townish) and now MO (who is quite helpfully townish).

3. Let's say 2. That's a tough one. I think a player would need to be more than a little bold to suggest anything other than letting Valentine Wiggin drive. By the same token, I believe that a townie might want to be cautious in a "I can't be so simple" kind of way. So among the players wanting to follow Locke, there will be two types. One type that fears following the obvious conclusion by imagining levels of complication that may not exist, and bold scum. hewitt appears to be quite safely town here, he's the first (except Wiggin and Locke themselves) to set the tone with a vote for Wiggin (which he forgot to bold but hey). As for the others, I'd like to see how they vote. If a Locke voter is known for gambitting, could be scum. If a Locke vote is known for wordy complexity, I would lean town.

I'm leary of Seraphim and Rawr Hydra for lack of activity, and lack of voting.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

My poke at DGB was an attempt to get a feel for how she felt the game was going; she really was tunneled on zwet early on for not obvious reasons.

I said it's because he's easiest for me to read. Right now I don't think he's on any scum team, because his buddies would have bus'ed him fatally already.

It reminds me of Evolution mafia (PJ and pie's weird theme game) where she was focused on a Fritz-scum but made no effort to hunt for people in a second scum group, which was a hint that she belonged to that other scum group...

Funny, I'm actually not tunneling on zwet as much as some other players, some of which are backing up their suspicion with a vote. If you want to find me tunneling, please let it be on KY Krew.

Finally, I'd guess that Seraphim is being replaced in 24 hours (assuming that the replacement list isn't empty; a replacement is preferable to a modkill.)

Looks like plenty of potential replacements on the list.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Or do you just not consider that tunneling at all?

Given that I've altered my stance on zwet's alignment past some early poking to see which way he'd flinch, and other players would sway, I don't see how you can call it tunneling. I don't care what Orbots thinks, either. I like to get a grip on zwet's alignment early because he gets lynched/bus'ed early. If I find him scum, then it's easy to zoom in on his buddies after zwet is lynched. If I find him town, you can usually find the opportunistic scum just as easily. Plus I read him (and players' reactions to him) like a book - within a few pages, usually.

Presently I'm not super-confident of Gaspar's alignment on account of the reasons and placement of his vote in the order. He could have unvoted if he wanted to prevent a KY Krew quick lynch. But he switched to zwet.

I'm also not seeing a whole lot of scumhunting from Cowfrog. Given the collective abilities of this

triple

hydra, I was expecting them to blow my socks off. So the zwet vote strikes me as a little cheap.

I'm also disappointed to see that's where Orbots landed his vote, but I can see Papa Zito doing it.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Thok, from what I've seen of him, isn't this quiet and doesn't post so quietly, even with excuses.

lol hypocrisy

do you realize that this also applies to you pretty much exactly?

-dahill

Gaspar seems to think that Thok is quieter than usual, too.

Do you recall this Thok post?

Could somebody familiar with zwet's meta give me a rough idea of what you think is his typical scum and town behavior? (It seems like he's posting less than I would expect him to given his reputation[...]

Thok said the same thing about zwet, that zwet just said about Thok, if only in a slightly wishy-washier way.

Do you want to "lol hypocrisy" to Thok too?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

...while Thok didn't seem to being doing the same to zwet just making a note of his sparse posting.

Could somebody familiar with zwet's meta give me a rough idea of what you think is his typical scum and town behavior?

Thok's objective was to assess zwet's alignment. It's more subtle, and he reached no conclusion because no one spoon fed him data on zwet's meta, but there's a similarity there.

Our vote on zwet isn't "cheap". We put on him because he's...scummy.

Your current thoughts on the KY Krew wagon vs. the zwet wagon would be much appreciated.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

hey guys, I'm currently working on a big 'ole meta of zwet. I think he's such an easy lynch to make in games, that I'm going to figure out what exactly seperates his different playstyles as scum and town.

-bridges.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I see to no reason to clamor for claims when both vote leaders have only 3/6 votes required for a lynch.

If a player grows some and puts someone at L-2, we'll start talking claims.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Needless to say, I now -- even more so -- am convinced that trying to lynch Mr. Grey is a waste of time.

We haven't a clue what the continued presence of Mr Grey means in this particular game.

Without information, we are unable to form an idea on whether lynching Mr Grey is or isn't a good idea.

The real question is, "do we leave him be, or do we decide to lynch him and hope for an interesting surprise?"

Now, the town is in a majority, so this is the town's decision to make. Unless the scum knows something we don't. No one is really pushing for it, so if the scum knows anything, it's that lynching Mr Grey not in the scum's favor. Otherwise there would be an impetus to push for it. It's a mega-huge "IF." MO did bring it up enthusiastically, but got no traction with anyone else - so his is an individual effort, not a group one. Either no one knows anything, or the scum believes lynching Grey might help the town.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Questions for JellyLee:

(1) Why is Thok so high on the list? I can think of reasons, but I want to know yours.

(2) What are your thoughts on zwet and KY Krew? Since you elected to vote off-wagon, I'd like to know why. Scum often likes to hide off-wagon.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Picture of a car: Done with discussion/lynch, those on camera stay with the door the advocate picked at the start.

Picture of a goat: Done with discussion/lynch, those on camera switch to the door the advocate didn't pick at the start.

That's probably not confusing for troll, but it might be for humans. How about a picture of a sitting dog for "stay" and a picture of a a wall switch for "switch?"

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Thanks PJ.

Do you happen to have an opinion on Gaspar? What do you see with fresh eyes?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Please explain all the details so that we can have a vote on this.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

What the frickafrack just happened?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Don't dismiss what you just posed as a possibility as an impossibility. Rash decisions sometimes are warranted. I actually find KY a tad less scummy for doing something so obviously blatantly a feasible scum tactic. Delaying a lynch doesn't sound like a good tradeoff for confirming yourself as scum in my book.

Also, this is raj/inHim we're talking about...

I'm going to suspend judgment on this one. It better be good.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

It won't be necessary if the players ON camera don't trust KY Krew, which may well be the case without effort on our part.

Also, depending on what he's going to say, we might want to suggest that KY Krew be trusted, through the thought of this is as appealing as eating sand.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

That's an impressive hydra. Ok, guys, I'm expecting you to have caught all the scum by the time I finish getting caught up.

Allow me to laugh my head off into a spectacular array of fireworks.

You'll never guess who Mr JellyLee is voting for - already.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

In any case, he sent Talilan back to us. Talilan was one of my main suspects, and I guess he still is, but if KY is scum, I doubt he'd send us a scum buddy of his to lynch.

Notably, he didn't switch with MafiaJin, who was everyone else's main ON camera suspect.

If KY Krew is scum, what does that make MafiaJin?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

DGB: Just one thing I was wondering about. You said that you don't think Zwet is scum because he hasn't been bussed. But you also said you think there's likely only 2 scum offstage. If Zwet was one of those scum, that would only leave one to do the bussing, so your reason for thinkiing him innocent doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Mmm, I guess I didn't think that through properly... yeah.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Talilan, you act as if you had a solid case against Gaspar. Except, I'm not seeing it anywhere. Thus your zwet vote is looking opportunistic to me.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Mmmm. This switch was done by the "Assistant Producer" - an unknown player.

Am I getting this right?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

If KY Krew is scum, and he wanted to switch places with a townie that might be lynched, it's pretty interesting that he would have picked Talilan.

That's because the most likely player to be lynched in such a switch would have been MafiaJin. However, if MafiaJin is scum, then KY Krew (again if KY Krew is scum) would not have picked MafiaJin.

Does that make sense?

In any event, consider us extremely unlikely to vote Talilan today.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Thinking about this some more, I think that Talilan being almost confirmed by probable scumbag KY Krew slinking off to avoid being lynched (and now back to lurking, despite his making it sound urgent) and putting her here within lynching range instead of MafiaJin.

So right now I'm rather inclined to thinking that Gaspar is scum for pursuing Talilan, and that his going after MafiaJin was distancing. I see KY Krew, Gaspar, and MafiaJin in the scumteam ATM.

@ Thok

OK, poking Talilan is scum hunting. What did you find?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

"Poking Talilan" now officially downgraded from "scum hunting" to "attempted scum hunting."

Carry on.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

The pic is fine. I'm in two minds whether the pic should be posted straight away to be safe, or if we should wait a bit to see what the other on-stage players say about it first

I agree with the above.

If they don't trust KY Krew without our help, we can use our picture power for something more useful later if necessary. Let's not waste it.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

It is really frustrating that Gaspar is not a viable lynch today when everyone is letting him slide by on reputation when really he is acting as scummy as it is possible for one player to act, and elmo and Thok are both towing the party line.

You know what? You're right. I am letting him getting away on reputation.

vote: Gaspar

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

BridgeAndBaloons has no time to post but he gave me his data from the zwet meta he finally finished. I couldn't find it, he put in under "Notes" in our account, I had never used or noticed this feature before.

Among these games, the finished ones were examined:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... c&&start=0
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... c05e33fd80
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11722 (but replaced out)
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11217
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6bbd974fa0
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10927
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... c&&start=0
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11294
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... c&&start=0
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11181
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10857
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... cb8a4c4d1e

Here's what he did. He calculated the average number of words in each post (not counting quoting other players) as town and as scum. As town, he had 9.5 words per post, and as scum, 10.4. Bridges doesn't feel this is a statistically significant increase in wordiness as scum.

He also calculated the expected number of posts per game, which depends on the number of players in the game, only counting the time before zwet dies. As town, zwet posts 6% more than his fair share. As scum/SK, he posts 18% more than his fair share. He appears to post a lot more as scum than as town.

In this game (City of Angels), at the time when Bridges made his calculations, zwet had posted exactly as much as expected in a game with this number of players, which is closer to his town posting profile than his scum posting profile, which is quite distinct.

Therefore, following Bridges' analysis, the GAB hydra is now in agreement that zwet is probably town.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Here's a timeline.

(1) KY Krew is the lynch-du-jour.
(2) He slinks off stage.
(3) zwet becomes the lynch-du-jour.
(4) Gaspar takes some heat.
(5) Gaspar defensively switches his vote to zwet to save his own keister.
(6) Somehow, KY Krew, the King of Lurk, has his timing perfectly figured out to end the day, mere hours after Gaspar's zwet vote, and just in time to save Gaspar's keister.
(7) If KY Krew isn't buddies with Gaspar, with Gaspar pulling his puppet strings and urging him to end the day ASAP, I will eat my hat.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

To be fair, without accounting for Gaspar's vote switch, zwet is still the outright Condorcet winner and wins all pairings despite Gaspar having a plurality vote.

Exactly.

KY Krew ended the day before anyone could change their Condorcet, and perhaps lower zwet and raise Gaspar.

I wonder if my relaying of Bridges' analysis, that changed Bridges' own mind regarding zwet's alignment, made them nervous.

The tide was not riding in Gaspar's favor.

In this game though, I feel like there is a good chance of scum being able to communicate at any time given how there really aren't days and nights.

Exactly. That is the normal assumption in a nightless game.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Read my post #559, that sums it all up.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I don't really buy the "Gaspar voted zwet to save himself, therefore he's scum" argument. Even as a townie, from Glork's point of view a zwet lynch would be better than a Gaspar lynch (known townie versus unknown alignment, plus Gaspar would be more likely to help town than zwet based on scum-hunting reputations.)

I know that. You are misrepresenting/reducing my argument. Just before the tide turned away from zwet against Gaspar, KY Krew, who posted ON camera hinting that following "young girls" wasn't such a hot idea, suddenly made a 180 degree turn, voted Wiggin, and ended the day.

It's the timing and connection to KY Krew that incriminates Gaspar, not the simple fact that he tried to save his keister by voting zwet.

Furthermore, I am adding my own argument to those already made by others, rather than parroting.

Thok, you have defended Gaspar by making it appear as if the only case against Gaspar was mine, when there were also strong cases made by others, and by reducing my case to something quite ridiculous sounding. Your defense of Gaspar is duly noted.

So folks, I have 3 scums. KY Krew, Gaspar, and Thok.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Exactly.

KY Krew ended the day before anyone could change their Condorcet, and perhaps lower zwet and raise Gaspar.

Could be. To be sure, caught-scum-KY Krew had pleanty of reason to end the day early so long as long as Zwet was #1, no matter what Glork's alignment is.

-Yos

Assuming KY Krew is scum, he could have continued down the path of hinting that following Wiggin is a bad idea. That's what he tried to do while zwet was ahead of the count.

But when Gaspar got heat, he completely and inexplicably switched from saying that following Wiggin wasn't such a good idea, to hammering and ending the day.

Why. Why did KY Krew so abruptly change course?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Responding to Gaspar.

I don't think that your attack on MafiaJin was baseless, it was a good way to start the day (mind you, I'm not discounting distancing here). Most very early cases are overstated anyway, so I don't hold that against you either way, it gets a little too WIFOMy for my even taste. It was a bit of a waste of time to pursue as strongly as it was because we couldn't lynch MafiaJin, but was it scummy? Nah. Only if we lynch one of you two, and hit scum. I'm going to see bus'ing all over the place.

It's Talilan's weakest point against you. It's not productive to dwell deeper into it, inflating its importance in a disproportionate way will render it quite ridiculous.

Concerning the "MafiaJin is scummy for immediately wanting to follow Valentine," we're probably looking at a misunderstanding or lack of attention to detail, rather than scummy intents from Talilan. As I've mentioned before, I think Talilan is likely town on account of KY Krew sending her off-stage rather than MafiaJin.

Your hat is probably safe.

BTW you sound like you know I'm town. I thought I should point that out.

Updated scumlist: KY Krew, Gaspar, MafiaJin and Thok.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I normally wouldn't have thought a scumbag would encourage the lynch of a director on their team but it's possible Glork was trying another busing maneuver which would effectively clear him.

It certainly would be a safe gamble, since we were unable to lynch MafiaJin. By the time we might be, we would have moved on to some other topic/wagon.

Gaspar moved quite fluidly from the two easy targets of the day. He alternated between zwet (super-easy target) and KY Krew (hard to miss that one). A lot of his conversation was focused on on-stage players that couldn't be lynched, but Gaspar was very much aware that KY Krew could switch with another player. I believe he was first to bring up the possibility.

Between voting the easy targets and emphasizing players that couldn't be lynched, I didn't get an honest scum hunting vibe out of Gaspar.

Bus'ing KY Krew would be another safe gamble. Gaspar went along with my case against KY Krew - knowing that KY Krew had the ability to escape any wagon.

Aside from that though I fail to see how the director putting themselves on stage is such an amazing tell...

It's not an amazing tell, but it's good enough for the first or second case of the day.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Forgot to mention this before. I am V/LA.

Now I will have most likely absolutely no access until Monday.

Still working on the Zwet meta.

-Bridges.


EDIT BEFORE POST: he was lynched. Darn, he was looking town in my initial meta. I'm sorry. I really need to get a handle on this game.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

@ 552 this was a miscommunicationg betwen dgb and I. I hadn't quite finished the meta, I was going to look at other factor's such as how early he made his first 10 posts, and the word count and content of the first 10 posts.

So what she posted was the unfinished meta.

-bridges

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I think Talilan is likely town on account of KY Krew sending her off-stage rather than MafiaJin.

how do we know KY krew's alignment?

I expect we'll soon find out.

if KY flips town, how does that affect this statement?

It will invalidate it.

Also can you add Strakiss to your scum list please.

Why? Is that player even in the game? That's how much under my radar he's flying.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

goof, how closely did you follow the On stage thread?

It was an excruciating bore. I kept up with it, but forgot it, much like a coma.

I did mention that there are players what would naturally distrust an "easy decision" by wondering if there isn't something hidden and more complicated underneath. I didn't think that was necessarily scummy. Is that what Starkiss did?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Alight, I voluntarily submitted myself to the mental torture of reading the on-stage thread, though limited to Starkiss' contribution. I managed to remain awake, if heavily drowsy.

I don't see scum there.

Since you do, please explain.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Questions, comments, complaints, etc?

Who is scum and why?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I would like to point out that TBTKM and Starkiss have been pretty good at escaping notice. I mean, really, really good.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I would like to point out that TBTKM and Starkiss have been pretty good at escaping notice. I mean, really, really good.

-DGB

not everyone's notice.

Well we have have to do about it, it's irresponsible to stand by idly when lukerscum is noticed.

@ Mufblade AND Starkiss

Like Mighty Orbots just did, I want you both to provide a list of every player in the game, how scummy/towny you find them, and why.

No excuses, no delay.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

EBOWP

"Well we have have to do about it"

"Well we have to do something about it"

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Mufblade, that's unacceptable. You are focusing on twee issues, and you are ignoring all the big ones.

I want your DETAILED reads/opinions on the following players:

Starkiss
Talilan
Gaspar
Mr Grey
Thok
Elmosaurian
sottyrulz
ShadowLurker

Also, please comment on players' behavior during the zwet lynch and how this affects your read of their alignment.

I'm also keenly interested in why you suggest that Panzer had an opportunity to switch sides, given the outcome of the day.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Right. Because if I was scum with Glork, of all people, my first instinct would be to attack him out of nowhere, pressure him, very nearly lynch him, and do this all in a way that wouldn't even get me that much town cred in the process by making him my #2 vote in a situation where the #1 vote, you, was not in any real danger of being lynched.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

But seriously now.

Starkiss and MufBlade are dragging their feet answering my questions.

Revised scumteam: KY Krew, Gaspar, and the rest among [MafiaJin>Thok/Mufblade/Starkiss].

Also, I expect Thesp to come through after the long weekend lest I add him to the list.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

@Goof - Elaborate on your point about me & TBTKM, please (ie, it's purpose).

Students, the above is a textbook case of "deflecting pressure."

Notice that the original point I brought up was lurking. Starkiss here responded with 12 words in the form of a question which, despite being infinitely vague, manages somehow to betray a

complete and utter lack of attention to the game

. How am I supposed to elaborate on "lurking?" Lurking is lurking. Let me try.

You're hiding.
You're not providing content.
You are actively avoiding scrutiny.
You are not scrutinizing.
You avoid antagonising other players.
You fear tying yourself to your buddies.
You sit by the sidelines.
You act in a way to make your alignment opaque.
You answer questions with questions, as you just did to CKD and myself.

You twitched when CKD merely FOS'd you

.
You emphasize that you were first to sheep CKD.
You seem surprised that your buddying up didn't work.

Theory: Starkiss and CKD do not share alignment.

Mufblade responded to the pressure in a towny way, where he shows a pleasing willingness to voluteer for his own annihilation should he fail to come through.

Starkiss responded to the pressure in the scummiest way imaginable.

Revised scumteam: KY Krew, Gaspar, and the rest among [MafiaJin/Starkiss>Thok].

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I don't know who MafiaJin will take on-stage, I hope I don't make the list because some players need matches lit to their toes. If I end up on stage, please, please don't let lurkerscum Starkiss get away with

anything

.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Goof, you can't have your cake and eat it.. You recently say my on-screen distrust of the advocate's option was not scummy in your eyes (I assumed nothing I did on-screen was scummy to you), but apparently lurking is what puts the nail in the coffin for you.. Lurkerscum, really?

That just goes to show you how fair I am.

Yup. Lurkerscum gets me. I've been burned too many times by lurkerscum. Any player that intends to lurk will incur my wrath. Right now, I am waiting in ambush for a Thesp contribution. I accepted his partial V/LA for the long weekend, but I want to see some meat in the near future.

Speaking of which, I am not too enthused with your response that you need to double-check with your hydra before giving thoughts on several players (I did NOT list them all, but feel free to do all of them). Are you afraid to make a mistake??? If you are town, I'd expect you to give your thoughts freely. But needing re-assurance from one's second head is scummy, scummy indeed. You need the two of you cooperating to avoid making a misstep perhaps?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

List looks fine to me.

I don't want you on-stage, you're needed off-stage to keep players hopping.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

@MafiaJin

Please don't put Talilan on-stage again, it's a waste of this hydra. I'm indifferent to the rest.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

mith games don't have cults. I don't recall ever seeing one.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Of course the scums made Krew the Adovcate. I had a strong suspicion they would.

Why would scum pick obvscum as their advocate? How does that work to their advantage? Sorry if I'm a little slow.

CKD fired MafiaJin. MafiaJin gave us his choices to comment on today. Was there some agreement that CKD should fire MafiaJin anyway?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

What if we run up enough votes for KY Krew to get lynched here.

When we decide the time is ripe, Talilan stunts KY Krew to die as soon as he crosses from on-stage to off-stage.

The lynch will seal the choices. Or does than deprive Talilan of a vote when that hydra is catapulted in? Is that the down side?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

With Mighty Orbots on stage, we have no means to send audio. With zwet dead, we have no means to send pictures. I checked the OP's, and the Director of Photography is "?"

Does that mean we are effectively cut off from on-camera?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I'm suspicious of how a mega-lurking player slot like Thesp ended up with the responsibility of Director of Photography. Is this a random choice or is someone behind it? If someone is behind it my paranoia will rise to the stratosphere.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

No, it says "alignment unknown."

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

The alignment of the assistant directer is unknown.

The alignment of the assistant producer is innocent. (But we don't know who it is either.)

-Zachrulez

Hmmmph. You're right. What a weird, weird choice, though.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Why exactly would Thesp be a weird choice? I don't think he is weirder than anyone else offstage. Also, it is noted that you guys are fishing for an explanation and trying to get our confirmed innocent to reveal their decision.

No, I don't want an explanation. But the Thesp player slot is an abyss of lurk. Since the decision is from a confirmed innocent, I guess that's OK... I scratch my head.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Not all the people that attack Talilan are scum automatically, but you have to keep in mind that there is a strong incentive for scum to discredit Talilan.

As far as I'm concerned, the very fact that KY Krew threw Talilan to us instead of MafiaJin (whom we might have lynched, urged by Gaspar), nearly confirms Talilan as town. I've made no secret that I believe Gaspar was distancing from MafiaJin.

The timing of MafiaJin's firing is a little unexpected, but since MafiaJin leans scum, I approve of CKD's decision.

In other news, sottyrulz is town.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

phew what an exhilarating scene that was..

How is everyone doing?

I really didn't like KY Crews actions that scene.

Uh?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Could Mufblade be scum? I have this odd vibe that he's taking clues from KY Krew. They're drinking from the same bottle.

Also, Thesp is a little off. He's not all that "on-topic."

Now all this talking and no voting is boring me to tears. So here's a lovely Condorcet for your weighing and consideration.

-DGB

vote: KY Krew

, Gaspar, [MafiaJin, Starkiss], Thok, [Mufblade, Thesp], Mr Grey, [everyone else], Goofballs and Baloons

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Goofballs: Nobody is voting because Krew is still On Camera, and we can't vote for On Camera people.

Last time I voted MafiaJin while he was ON camera, my vote was counted.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I want a poll from everyone Off Camera:

Which door would you vote for right now if it were up to you?
A) Door 1
B) Door 2
C) Undecided

Isn't the whole door selection a great big knot of WIFOM to begin with? Are you setting up a WIFOM trap that you can use to later accuse people on false premises, while pretending to hunt scum?

I want to hear from MBL, 100% nostalgia.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Hey sotty, you forgot to bold your vote, it won't count until you do.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Of the people currently offstage, a condorcet:

Vote: [Talilan, Hewitt], TheBlade, [Thesp, StarKiss, Sottyrulez], Panzer, [G&B, BEC], No Lynch, Gaspar

Why aren't you voting KY Krew? We can. The second he comes off stage, the votes count.

Why do you find hewitt as scummy as Talilan? Do you think they are scum together? Why is Mufblade above [Thesp, StarKiss, Sottyrulez]? Do you think Mufblade is scum with Talian or hewitt? Do you see connections between the players that top your list?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Hey hewitt, you forgot to bold your vote.

Why aren't you voting KY Krew?

Why is Panzer your top choice? Is there a case? He's been flying under my radar, I'd forgotten he's in the game at all.

I'm also curious about what it is about Mufblade that makes him scummier than Starkiss.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Why aren't you voting KY Krew? We can. The second he comes off stage, the votes count.

Are you certain that On-Camera votes become real votes the second they are moved Off-Stage?

That's my understanding. We're read the same mod comment, obviously, we differ in our interpretation.

Is there a reason

not

to stick KY Krew in with the lot?

If some ability were to end the day right now, without a switch, I would want Talilan and Hewitt at the top of my condorcet.

Say you put KY Krew first, and Talilan second, and every player does the same. The KY Krew votes don't count. Then Talilan is lynched. Is there a downside to that as far as your suspicions are concerned?

Thank you for answering the other questions, I'm satisfied with the answers.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Right now it has a lot to do with your vote for Zwet and how KY Krew rushed the end of the day. I can't believe the two aren't linked in some fashion. DGB was right, at the time things were starting to turn for you. I don't think it was a coincidence

I have no defense to the timing other than to say that the scums set me up, and that once I'm lynched as an innocent, look strongly at the people who first proposed the KY-Gaspar connection.

DGB is the first person that hops into mind. I'm pretty sure she was the first to suggest that link. Who else would you put here?

That was indeed me that proposed the idea, and when both Ky Krew and Gaspar flip scum, I want a chocolate medal.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

The reason I'm talking about other people is because IMO, there's very little to discuss about Krew. He is absolute, definite scum. Zero doubt in my mind. More certain of it than even Talilan. What I'm doing, Sottyrulez, is trying to get something ELSE useful out of this day as well, by asking critical questions of several players. That's just basic Protown Play 101. What do you want me to say? "Hay guys, I still think Krew is the lynch of the day?" If that's what you want, I'll say it for the dozenth time. But after making all of the above statements, I didn't think anybody could be so stupid enough to accuse me of "making the day about somebody else."

I suggest you stop and think very long and very hard about what I've said about KY Krew. Especially look at the post where I absolutely rip into Talilan for saying that I should be lynched Day Two. And then I want you to tell me if you really think this is a valid argument at all.

Okay, you could have a point here. I do personally need to review the whole exchange again, so when I get a minute I will do that.

-Sotty

@ Talilan - what is your take on the above?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

@DAB - Got anything to show?

Nope. Nothing to show at all. I'm completely useless. You're right. I've not contributed anything.

I appreciate your insight in pointing it out. The rest of the crowd hasn't noticed my flying under everyone's radar with the gigantic voids of intelligence that are my posts, but really my very presence just turns players into lumps of stupid - it's my fault. But thanks to you, now they will see that I am a black hole of intelligence, sucking everyone else's wit with my dense gravitational field of idiocy, and turning that wit into anti-wit.

I love your theory that a cult recruiter would raise the possibility of there being a cult.

Keep up the good work.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Just link me to your more vital posts. That's all I'm asking.

That's YOUR job, not mine. I don't do the scum's footwork.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

So the secret to choosing correctly is guessing exactly how many iterations of "I cannot choose the wine in front of me" they would've gone through. Or maybe they flipped a coin and we should too.

QFT

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Good grief. I just checked the on-camera thread. I cannot make heads or tails of what's going on there.

VP Baltar suggests that Thesp should send the switch signal now. But - did they pick anything yet?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Well, that leads to the question of who is flipping said coin. If there is day talking, scum know which is the right door and which is the wrong door and would no doubt try to influence our decision here. Should we all just take a firm stance on which door to pick and majority rules?

That's just the thing. We can't analyze this as it happens, we can only analyze

post hoc

, and even then, I can see this turning into a convenient "townie trap" for the scum to exploit, because 2/3 choices are bad.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Anyways, we can't do anything until they pick the first door, right?

Is the good/bad of the door revealed after the first choice, or after the second?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Oh and another thing. We'll probably learn more about people's alignment if there is a switch, because if the players vote for 2 bad doors, then maybe we can have something on them. We get more information with a switch.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I think it'd be more worthwhile to watch those on screen play it out. I think it's a coinflip either way.

@ Thesp

I agree.

Why don't you go down there and post the message:
Picture: Green Light: http://www.goldenspikespeedway.net/Gree ... plight.jpg

as agreed upon earlier.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Actually, is there anything else that needs to be discussed before we do that? How does it work with the stuntman? Should we lock in our votes for KY Krew, or do we want to toy with him before we finish him off?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

@ VP Baltar

Oh. I see. I missed that.

A few points. Talilan may not be trusted as much the green light message would, so I think we should stick with the plan.

Are you saying you want to toy with KY Krew up here before killing him? Or should we start voting him now, then Talilan stunts, and the second he's here, he's dead?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

OK, I unvote (because I've got KY Krew in the lead).

What about sending them a message? We're now saying that Talilan will relay our feelings?

Does that mean that the next step if for Talilan to stunt with KY Krew?

unvote

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Yes, I thought we'd been saying that for a while.

I'm not as fast as I used to be. The next life stage for me is "Don't Forget To Wear Your Depends."

Well, what's Talilan waiting for, then?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

2) Stop chewing the scenery with your horrid acting.

ESPECIALLY THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I'm done and I can't imagine what else there could be. VP covered all the tiny bases.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Talilan please don't stall anymore. The time for action is now.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Did we change the plan to wait for KY Krew to show up to toy with him?

Does Talilan need time on camera or is it a waste of time?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

KY Krew is in the lead now, what happens if we lynch him before they have reached a decision on-camera?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

So there's a hoodie cult?

The only reason I'm not hammering this minute is because I fear the boredom of waiting for the people on-camera to make up their narcissistic minds.

But then again, why deny myself the pleasure?

-DGB

vote: KY Krew

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I fail to see how that implies a cult.

Your avatar is wearing a hoodie!

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I want to send them a signal that their script is a sure box office flop.

Talilan already told them that they are free to decide whatever they want.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

By itself it's not hugely scummy, but adding everything else... in other words it's not a "standalone" scumtell.

Interestingly hewitt was voting Panzer... and so was KY Krew. I'm not too sure what to think of that. I'll hold off until we have KY Krew's alignment out there. Some of you strike me as a little too sure of his alignment - but this may be a special case.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Should I make a picture of Leia with a noose? I can PhotoShop.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Doesn't sending the green light mean that we're agreeing with door #1 and that they would seal their choice?

Should I make that image of Carrie Fisher with a noose?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

OK, I'm on the job.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

How is this? I PhotoShopped the eyes so that they are closed, so that they really know that KY Krew is not about to be lynched, but dead.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7118/01cr.jpg

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Alright, I will put Kentucky on a noose.

I don't think that showing both a townie and a mafiate conveys our ingnorance.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

How is this?

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/695/73192549.jpg

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

And I like either much more than personal lubricant on a string.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

BTW there is absolutely nothing work with voting players for lurking at any stage of the game. Too often I've seen very active townies get lynched while the scum lurked in the background unharmed, and made it to end game.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

EBWOP:

" there is absolutely nothing work"

" there is absolutely nothing WRONG"

Also, Pooky is the only thing that makes the on-camera thread bearable. Bear-able. Ha. There's a pun.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Theory:

There was 2/3 bad doors. Door 1 was chosen pretty much unopposed.

Unless the scum is a team of wimpy pushover town-pleasing doormats that aren't playing to their win condition, does this suggest that there were few scumbags on-camera, and that most scumbags were off-camera?

The Scientology cult thing is weird. I have to think about this.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

The flavor makes it sound like Tom Cruise wasn't supposed to be there. Does that mean he was scum of some kind?

Meaning?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

One thing is clear - if KY Krew was Tom Cruise, unless you can be recruited into being Tom Cruise, the recruitment mechanism cannot be of the normal kind. And he's not a recruiter.

But then CKD said that the mafia was the Mafia Actors Guild or some such, so eh.

I don't know if I'm afoot or on horseback at this point.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I don't see any reason for him to lie, but I also fail to see how a cult factors into the pre-destined endgame .

If he were scum, would he make that kind of lie? Is there an advantage?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

If they led to the wrong door they'd probably end up being lynched and if they choose the right one, then that's just more help to the town. If they choose an obvscum advocate instead, then he can attempt to WIFOM the choice and there's a much better chance ofthe wrong door being picked

The question is, why did they fail?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Think about this, DGB, and apply it to the WIFOM situation. Even though it was WIFOM, we still had a 50% chance of getting it right. We happened to get it right. That's why they failed.

Well see, you'd figure, if we had enough scum on-camera, that they would exploit the inherent WIFOM of the situation to push their agenda. What is interesting is that there was so little interest in the wrong choice, door #2.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Maybe they stood back and wanted to test the waters first by seeing what the townies thought of the choices. That way, they can manipulate everyone based on how they felt about the current choices. I'm pretty sure there was at least 1 person (on-camera) who did the

consensus-question, sit back, observe

tactic without offering their stance on the issue first.

I don't believe that at all. See, they could have gently steered to the wrong door. They would have totally gotten away with it. Unless they were (1) wimpy doormats not playing their win condition; (2) outnumbered to an extent that even gentle steering would have stood out or (3) that's what Elmosaurianscum tried to do anyway.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I'd like for the stuntman to bring Elmosaurian back off-camera.

That's what I want for Xmas. Santa, I've been good.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

hello everyone! I'm back from like several weeks (maybe a month!? feels long . . .) of not posting in this game. I have been very busy and I definitely would have replaced out of this game if I was not in a hydra with DGB.

But I AM in a hydra with DGB so this gives me the chance to continue to play this game. I'm still busy so I'm not going to have a super active role in this game, but I will look around and point out anythings that I see.

-Bridges

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

There has continued to be no night kills. I'm bringing this up because I don't think the discussion on this has been fully explored.

Talillan 119

advocate(s) chosen by scum for subsequent scenes. They will still get the useful information whether they be scum or town. They are kind of like a weird version of night-kill choices for the scum.

Your word choice here seems to imply you know that scum don't have night kills. I just reread the rules (again. . .) and I couldn't find anything to suggest this.

Also: no-one died overnight. I suspect possibly making the wrong decision enables night-kills.

I also have no idea why ckd fired MafiaJin (particularly with that timing).

- ortolan

Interesting; if the [Something Else] alignment is indeed cult like, it would explain why we have had no deaths between scenes even though those are supposed to function like Nights.

I think that Scientology really does lend itself to being a cult. No offense to any scientologists here, but seirously.

ALSO cults really make sense with the Day 1 on stage talk about John Locke turning into a villian.

OMG wow I totally didn't think about this but now that I am it makes more and more sense that we have a cult. That implies a cult leader which means we should definitely lurker-hunt in the future. I mean, I'm not positive we have a cult here, but in case we do, we NEED to make sure that no one slides by.

Again I don't have much time to devote to this game, but I wanted to share what I discovered.

-Bridges

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Hmm..panzer slips by with another piggyback post.
I'm getting scum vibes from elmosaurian, panzer, and glork. Much more sure on the first two though

I'm on the fence about Panzer, but I'm as certain as can be that Elmosaurian and Gaspar do not share alignment. They're both making good points against each other. I too think Elmosaurian is scummier, but all that he said about Gaspar is absolutely dead on laser-accurate correct.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

but I'm as certain as can be that Elmosaurian and Gaspar do not share alignment.

Argh! That's exactly what they want you to think.

Someone sees bus'ing where I don't?

The world is upside down.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Incidentally, while scientology cult is a possibility, ky krew in that situation is almost certainly not a recruit. Furthermore, there seems too be no indication that he is a recruiter either. Which makes me a little skeptical of the idea of a scientology cult.

I echo this opinion. It's possible that there is a Screen Mafia Guild and Scientologists.

It makes little sense for the Scientologists to work like a cult (in the realm of this mafia game). We may have two scum groups. But cult? As I explained before I find it hard to reconcile that Tom Cruise was recruited, since he's a known Scientologist. He had to be a Scientologist from the get go, bar some fancy role explanation. Yet he wasn't a recruiter. That's a bee in my bonnet.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Bagel Eating Cowfrog, hewitt, MrJellyLee, Panzerjager, PookyTheMagicalBear, sottyrulez, StarKiss, Talilan, Thok

If you don't send me with Pooky I'll be deathly bored.

That's all.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

So saying "This person wouldn't do this as scum because it would get themselves killed" is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT if they would have to die because their scumbuddies are the ones headed into endgame.

You've just added another reason as to why the scum was outnumbered on camera in the previous scene. You'd expect them to go in there and sacrifice themselves. But they turned over and let us have the point without saying a word. Oh wait. I forgot about Elmosaurian.

He's the scumikaze.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

DGB, I think it's silly to assume that the people who voted for Door #1 are necessarily protown. You seem to be treating them as infallible non-scums, when "scums pushing the right Door" -- while sub-optimal -- is not out of the question.

That's not how it came down (re: Elmosaurian) but I would be willing to forgive a player that picked door #2, while giving zero town cred to players that picked door #1.

But all you needed is a bit of momentum one direction (door #1 or door #2) and the apathetic masses would follow... and the apathetic masses did follow... except that there was little to no momentum for door #2. I find that very telling.

There was little to no town cred to be earned by leaning towards door #1, and little to no risk by leaning towards door #2.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

can't we just like lynch all of da scum and win?

Poooooooooookkkkky!

I'll soon be off to makeup to prepare for the stage. Will you come with me? You know the script in the third act is always the sauciest.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

sure

I will get makeup all over you.

Yes there's six gallons of various shades of foundation in the supply closet, not to mention the two barrels of fake blood. Shall I fill the jacuzzi?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Bagel Eating Cowfrog (hasdgfas/dahill1/Shanba) - Sunshine, everyone wears sandals
curiouskarmadog - 60% chance of showers
elmosaurian (Yosarian2/Elmo) - Hurricane Elmosaurian upgraded to Category 5
Gaspar (Glork) - Snow flurries, 25 cm accumulation
GoofballsAndBaloons (DrippingGoofball/BridgesAndBaloons) - Heat wave, but breezy
hewitt - Tropical depression hewitt warning
MafiaJin (MafiaSSK/Sajin) - 30% possibility of melting snow
Mighty Orbots (Papa Zito/Zorblag) - Sunny
MrJellyLee (MrBuddyLee/petroleumjelly), Condition: Mainly Sunny, Pressure: 102.2 kPa, Tendency: Rising, Visibility: 48 km
Panzerjager - Cool
PookyTheMagicalBear, replacing Rawr Hydra S2 - 85% chance of rainbows
ShadowLurker - Room temperature
sottyrulez (Sotty7/Zachrulez) - 30% chance of shower
StarKiss (Starbuck/Kise/dramonic) - Tornado watch in effect
Talilan (Talitha/ortolan) - Variable cloudiness
Thesp - Overnight frost warning
Thok - Late afternoon thundershowers, hail warning
VP Baltar, replacing ThebladethatkilledMufasa S2 - Sunny, SSE 50 km/h with gusts up to 60

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

so DGB, cold and wet is bad?

Not as bad as a hurricane.

I kick myself. I should have included everyone's moon phase.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

so if I am 60% chance of rain...I am actually clear, until it starts raining? Does me asking this question change my weather?

That's most definitely the current weather forecast according to our very sophisticated, if generally inaccurate, models.

what if I send/dont send pooky?

You want to make me cry? I'm going to be out of my mind with boredom on-camera, it looks so tiresome, oh wait - did you know that fake blood foams when you turn on the jacuzzi?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

But ***I*** wanted to do some squeezin'!!!

To toot my own horn, nobody does it better than me.

Well you can have it your way if that's what you want. But I'm going to be very cross and sour. That's all.

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

PJ's right, and I've already explained why Pooky needs to stay Off Stage.

*sigh*

I guess I'm going to have to stop the jacuzzi... you bunch of kill joys.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

My point is this:
[Something Else] has ZERO REASON to play to have ALL OF THEIR MEMBERS SURVIVE, because they will have to exclude all but two of them anyway. Like I said in my last post, if I'm scum, I would totally use at least one of those extra players to confuse the town for several days, even if it meant they would eventually get lynched.

Thus, the idea that "Player X wouldn't make a play because it would get them lynched" falls through. If Player X will not participate in Endgame even if they play to survive, why not use them in a manner which will confuse and mislead the town?

So why do you think we won the point yesterday?

And who is confusing the town the most?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Stray idea popped into my head: if we are facing a cult and a mafia, the good or bad decisions we make on screen (or successful lynches) could determine who we face in end game. Personally, I would not want to have to root out a cult in the scenario. I have no idea if this is the case, but thought i would put it out there.

I don't know if that's really likely, but it's the only thing I could think of that would semi-make sense with multiple scum factions.

If CKD is telling the truth, I agree the above is the most likely scenario. I was hoping that this could explain what happened in Scene 2, but I seem to lack the required imagination.

-DGB

Tags removed. Use bold only for voting. - Mod

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I don't understand why a Scientologist mafioso/cultist would go berserk and draw attention to the mention of a cult. Unless it's a super-sloppy intentional distancing set up in a quicktopic:

dude ill say cult and you jump on it they'll never guess were both thetans

ok im on that shit like ellen degeneres on a bagel if u no what i mean

Regardless, that's why you+cult came together like peanut butter and chocolate in my little brain.

I see a "Funniest Player" scummie in your future.

But I'm not sure I see a "curiouskarmaslop."

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Did we mislynch, Elmosaurian?

I think he's trying to say that we should lynch Gaspar instead of him.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Any acting tips for me tomorrow before I head to make up, costume, then bask in the limelight, amazing the whole theater?

-DGB

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

-DGB

Post removed. Don't quote the Mod. - Mod

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

More like an hour and 15 minutes.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

For those asking rationalization of my vote on the decision, I think it's pretty much laid out on-camera. I didn't hold anything back.

Why would the off stage people have more info on the puzzle than the on stage?

How don't know how this "culture" came about, maybe is the nature of the pre-arranged signals, but all the on-camera/off-camera communication is centered on the off-camera people telling the on-camera people what to do.

I didn't question it because up to a point I was confused by the mechanics, then by apathy.

But really it's kind of dumb. Or is it the best we can come up with for the signals?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Maybe a noose, indicating that a lynch has taken place, would be less confusing than the green light.

I don't think off-camera players have any business telling on-camera players what to pick. Otherwise, how the heck are we supposed to find scum?

Maybe I make no sense. It's happened before.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I also don't see how those on camera knowing if those off stage think that one choice in particular is the correct one is going to stop us from finding scum.

It lessens the on-camera players responsibility in the choices. If the collective of players off-camera says the on-camera players should vote George W Bush, that's a huge chunk of influence that cannot be easily discounted.

So if they're discussing voting Obama on-camera, and the off-camera players send the vote Bush signal, they'll all switch to Bush, and will wash their hands of responsibility. Then we'd need to look off-camera to check who is responsible, and I think that dilutes responsibility by making it less direct, and less immediate.

In other words, more complicated to find scum.

No? Am I wrong?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

There may be a bit of group scapegoat-ism going on hewitt right now. It's distracting from the other sort of possible culprit, namely, players that seemed to know a little too much as we were proceeding to make the wrong choice.

I have to re-read the on-camera thread, where Tabris is so bloody annoying, before revising my scumlist. I can't before Monday, I'm on professional deadline.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Dear Ort, refer to my previous post and stop trying to get people to give their scum lists before the scene starts. thanks.

We can make an exception for Thok. Talilan has got a point. Thok has been weird, starting out with a fixation on me out of left field, followed by unashamed Gaspar worship, while discussing (his latest post) things that should make Gaspar look scummy, but then Thok fails to conclude that Gaspar looks just as scummy as the other players that did the same actions.

He was also too chicken to vote on the wrong decision. He was a great big bag of non-commitment the whole Scene, wiffle-waffling, lots of words, but taking no stance that might be unsafe.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Methinks you need to get your eyes checked, G&B. The first point of Thok's defense was "Glork did it, too."

I do need my eyes checked, but I did read correctly.

The point is, it's scummy, no matter who did it. It's true that we have more events to weigh into a player's performance, since a lot has happened since those events, but I think Thok is giving you a free pass from some reason, on top of being wordily-yet-lurky, and non-committal. Why is Thok saying "If Glork did it then it's OK?" Really? Why. Why do you accept this?

Here's my imitation of Thok:

"blah blah blah

sit on fence

blah blah blah

50% grey

blah blah blah

nonsense

blah blah blah

some safe crap

blah blah blah

Glork can do no wrong

and oh yeah, vote: G&B"

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

oh, I missed a statement in there:

2b) Baltar said "why are you asking Thok for a scumlist after I just said it's a bad idea?"

Glork? Elvis?

Please demand that Thok to produce a scumlist. He'll listen to you.

Thanks.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Thok is past the stage of merely making me uneasy.

But you are making me uneasy, too, because if you were town, you'd totally be all over him for it. And you're kinda cool.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I'm like 3 pages ahead of you, DGB.

Yeah alright touché.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

There are no advocates for the upcoming scene, does that make a difference?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

We don't need more people doing lists, VP. We have what we need.

Namely, we have proof that Thok is riding same

anti-G&B and suck up to Gaspar

train he was on when the game started.

Thok is not a fellow whose opinion is changed by, say, facts, events, happenings, shifts in wind direction... or anything in the game. He does little more than turn a blind eye, or find support for his pre-conceived Day 1 notions/grand-masterplan.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Also I'd like to know why VP Baltar is on Thok's "ignore" list.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

OK, I'll bite. What facts should I notice about you that should make me think that you are protown?

It's your failure to do your own homework that makes it look like you'd rather flip the pages of your agenda rather than hunt scum.

Anything I say can be WIFOM'ed one way or another, and you've already braced for this. I went after KY Krew, and that's because I "knew too much?" That's an example of WIFOM'ing away evidence that doesn't fit your preconceived notions.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

GnB: Please address explicitly how the Crone's flip as a bad choice changes your opinions on whose scum.

This is the third time you ask. Why, the scum wants to know? I'm suspicious of your motives. Why me in particular? Are your buddies worried? Are you deciding who you are going to kill and you need the information now? Are you checking if you were succesful in manipulating my thoughts?

It's not like I'm ever secretive as to whom I suspect. Your interest is really bizarre.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

This is basically what I've noticed from you:
-You think I'm town.

I'm back thinking you're town after you ferreted out MafiaJin's recent posting patterns.

-You change this view to scum on the basis that I was supporting a choice that you thought was wrong

I did? I don't remember that. If I did it must have been a fleeting view.

-You were shown to be wrong and are now just going to be uncooperative, instead of owning up/explaining the basis for your wrong actions.

My actions were totally explained, I didn't hold anything back, it's all there.

...instead of reevaluating your positions.

I am re-evaluating my positions. I think it's weird of you to ask NOW, instead of after the scene starts. You still lean town, but I've added that on the "scum" side of your balance sheet. As for my new positions, they're still uncooked. Why fret about it? I make several posts a day, I never make a secret of my position on anybody, and I'm opinionated.

But then you're absolutely correct, MafiaJin is actively avoiding scrutiny, like a good little scum. He's as slippery as a snake dipped in WD40. Why haven't we set the dogs out on him?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

...Talilan/Gaspar into a major distraction for a number of people.

There are good points being made but yes I am concerned with the lack of balance. The second someone makes a case against someone being scummy, gadzooks! The Talilan/Gaspar feud blasts in and stiflles that discussion, and the case disappears into nothingness.

Don't we have Thesp wanting Panzer dead? Thok pretending to hunt scum and sucking up to Gaspar? MafiaJin lurking hard? Starkiss is still in the game??? JellyLee's case against CKD? Pooky being uber cute? And there's somthing else I can't find anymore from this in-between scene, there's another case I forget. I'd be grateful if someone refreshed my memory.

We should be able to discuss these uninterrupted by Talilan/Gaspar. Scum is slipping away.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

k, sorry for defending ourselves, we should have just submitted to Gaspy's craplogic and obnoxious playstyle and allowed ourselves to be lynched day two.

I said there were good points, but we need some space to examine all the other roaches. It would be nice if you diversified your own attention - especially since I believe you to be town.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

last sentence was suppose to read,

why did you not cough cough after we sent the stuntman pic?

I did cough after the stuntman picture. I stopped after the greenlight. Admittedly it took a short while for me to realize that there was no point hinting after the green light was on, but hey,

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I just finished skimming the off-stage happenings, and there is a lot of material that I want to comment on. I have to read it again more carefully. There are a lot of things that concern me.

I noticed that CKD has some questions as well. I will answer them.

I have a 100-page manuscript to review in RL so I'm glad we're between scenes, because I have to finish that job, plus I have a church window design that needs to be revised although that's not a rush.

Expect a very long detailed DGB brain madness post before the in-between scene is over. I'll try to prioritize it among my online activities because I want you guys to have time to discuss it.

Anyhoo sotty's chart piqued my interest. Scum never puts their eggs in the same basket. In standard games, some vote on the wagon, some off the wagon. They never really pile onto the same seat on the wagon. Here I think a scum has to walk a fine line between voting pro-town choices, and pro-scum choices. Given that we've had four scenes, and some players were only in one scene so far, it's little more than random. And you know that the scum won't put all their eggs in the same basket anyway. Unless they want to die quickly.

Here's the DGB interpretation:

Gaspar: X, X, Did not vote,

Voted push

- semi-cowardly scum!
Talian:

Follow Wiggin KY Krew stunt vote

,

Picked door 1

, X,

Voted not to push

- this scumbag needs town cred real bad!
Pooky: X, Did not vote,

Voted crone

,

Voted push

- OMG total in-your-face suicidal scum!
Orbots: X,

Picked door 1

, X,

Voted push

semi-cowardly scum!
Thok: X,

Picked door1

, Did not vote,

Voted not to push

- Grand coward scumbag! Needs town cred bad!
Starkiss:

Follow Wiggin

, X,

Voted crone

,

Voted push

- ooo... this scum trying hard to attract attention!
Sottyrulez: Did not vote, X, X,

Voted not to push

- cowardly scum guarding his town cred like his virginity!
GaB: X, X,

Voted crone

, Did not vote - OMG scum scum scum
Panzer/Zu Faul:

Follow Wiggin

, X, X,

Voted push

- more cowardly scum!
Hewitt: Did not vote, X,

Voted Crone

, X - more cowardly scum!
VP:

Follow Wiggin

, X,

Voted crone

, X - more cowardly scum!
CKD:

Follow Wiggin

, Did not vote,

Voted Mother good choice?

, X - more super coward scum, really hungry for town cred!
Mafiajin: Did not vote,

Picked door 1

, X, X - town.
SL: X, Did not vote, Did not vote, X - cowardly scum!
Thesp: Did not vote, X, X, X - look! he dodged all bullets! biggest cowardly scumbag!

What I would expect if for scum to be in a real hurry to line up the townies in front of a firing squad to lynch them for their choices. They can either act like scumikazes (think KY Krew), or presciently pick all the nice pro-town choices, then hang the townies for it.

And it's easy to make up all kinds of BS - mind you, I may be spot on on some of that BS.

For instance, I can say that Thesp has been kept from being off-stage by CKD-scum, because Thesp is being groomed for end game.

I can say that Starkiss earned town cred with the right choice, then spent it on two wrong choices.

I can say that sotty was a coward in Scene 1 and didn't vote, then picked the right choices, to better be able to crucify the other players that did not.

I can say that CKD being under suspicion for his turncoat claim needed town cred so bad that he made sure to pick the pro-town choices.

I can say Thok bats .300 except when he's out with an injury, so he sounds like a guy in the know.

And I can say, look at SL! The two times he was on, he failed to register a choice. He was a non-voter. Now, who would want to be sure to avoid accountability?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

For example, if we had a stuntman and didn't like the push toward pushing the button on scene 4, we could have stunted someone on camera to try to swing the vote.

That would mean players that don't have to responsibility for the decision, placing themselves in a position of being accountable. No townie, and no scum, would risk it. Let's be realistic.

I think you just want more people implicated in the votes, so that you can gun them down later.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I think sotty is trying to string up the townies. If that's the scum plan, then I wouldn't be surprised if the scum had a better-than-average voting record.

You're blaming me for the zwet lynch? I didn't even have a Condorcet at the time, only a single freakin' vote... I was voting Gaspar... no Condorcet!

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

For what it's worth, I would have...

Voted for Valentine to drive.
Voted for Door 2
Voted for Mother

Gawd you are working so hard stringing up townies, scum.

Hey why don't you tell us what you are would vote in the next 3 scenes?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

In case someone has missed this gem from sotty, who is saying my Condorcet vote is responsible for zwet's lynch:

(1) I made it clear that I thought zwet was town over the objections of my second head.
(2) I didn't even have a Condorcet at the time
(3) I had one only a single vote... Gaspar... no Condorcet!

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

YOUR WORDS

Aren't we forgetting that vote FORCED the Zwet condercet lynch?

Yeah, string her up... PLEASE.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Yeah, the on camera vote, that you accused us of not voting in.

Defensive much?

I was merely being absurd, and even referred to my own "accusations" as, and I QUOTE,

BS

.

Let's see what I actually said:

And it's easy to make up all kinds of

BS

- mind you, I may be spot on on some of that

BS.

And proceeded with several fine

examples of BS

I could pull out of my keister - some of which may be true, as truth is occasionally as strange as fiction.

I feel like I hit a raw nerve here.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Also, Goofballs, you logic about not voting = scum is completely flawed in my mind. The scum KNOW the correct outcome for each scene. They can make their record as perfect or as bad as they want.

Exactly. I totally agree with this.

Again. My accusations were identified as BS by myself as I was making them.

I was illustrating the point you are making, which is that the scum has the ability to make their choices splendid examples of pro-town prescience, or act like scumikaze fiends, like KY Krew did, or stay out of the limelight completely.

Given that the win:lose record is currently 50:50, I am gonna to say that the scum probably isn't trying as hard as they could, and place strategic value on appearing pro-town. Now, the preceeding sentence is NOT hyperbolic BS. Feel free to disregard.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

@Hewitt: You've crossed the line between being "mad at someone while playing an online game," against someone who's playing to a win condition in a staged interaction, not a normal social interaction.

I'm uncomfortable with it.

Please turn down the rhetoric, whether you mean it, or faking it for the purposes of playing the game.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Good morning peeps.

First order of bizniss.

sottyrulz.

I love you sottyrulz. For years I've dealt with players wanting to policy-lynch me for sucking at mafia, you are the first person to describe me, in a mafia game no less and not a sycophantic GTKAS DGB thread, as a brilliant, second-by-second strategist that is 10 steps ahead of everyone else on the chess board, that other players actually respect, listen to, and best of all, follow.

I must admit my first instinct was to point out how my first on-camera choice had my keister literally on fire with paranoia, and on the second choice I was merely nursing my 3rd degree burns from the day before. Although I did not actually vote, I was squarely on the side of the wrong choice, and did write, on-camera, that I accept responsibility and consequences as if I were on the vote. But saying this would undermine that magnificent ode to the Goofball that you wrote so beautifully and that I will add to my wiki page the moment this game is over, and I think I'd rather sit on those fresh laurels for a while. They smell sweet and feel like a heavenly cloud.

The price to pay is that you think I'm scummy but it's totally worth it. And please, to the rest of you. I now live with fear that you will start writing tl;dr posts outlining how shortsighted and short attention-spanned I really am (also, maybe even some worse stuff I don't want to hear about) to contradict sottyrulz. Please don't.

Let me enjoy this moment of being thought of as a fierce and respected player.

Awwwwwwwwww

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Second order of bizniss.

Who to put on and off camera.

Please leave me off camera. I hate being on camera, I hate that guessing of how many layers of WIFOM the scum laid on us. But I think pretty much everyone hates being on camera anyway so I'm not a special snowflake in this regard.

I understand Gaspy's concerns about not liking how a handful of players pick from the on-camera players who to lynch, bring that player on and condemn them to certain death no matter how good their defense.

(1) We can put the townie players OFF camera, and the scummy players ON camera. This means that the choice will be more likely driven by scum, but then it also means that the town is more likely to hit scum. And it's by finding scum that we find more scum. That's what we have done so far.

(2) We can put the townie players ON camera, and the scummy players OFF camera. That's essentially giving the scum a free daykill, but it gives us a shot at picking the right choice.

(3) We can spread the scum, put one or two scummy players OFF camera and the rest ON camera. Because most players are ON camera these days, I think it would be difficult to really do this with any accuracy and reliability and we can really shoot ourselves in the foot, but it would give a scummy player wiggle room to get out of a lynch if they're town. Is that worth it?

(4) I think there's a balance/trade-off here. If we are behind in picking the choices, we can decide to risk giving the scum a free daykill and put townie players ON camera. If we're ahead we can swing the other way.

Now the ON camera choices are 2-2 so I guess it's a toss up what we want to do.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Third order of bizniss.

Catching up with the OFF camera banter.

It's interesting to read Thesp going after Panzer/zu_Faul, before zu_faul did the townie town town break dance. So maybe this is what Thesp is like when he really believes a player to be scum? Yeah I think he's town but by a slim margin, and yet...

This quote from Thesp: "

My lynch candidate preference didn't change much from when I initially stated them.

" Worries me a great deal. You know how scums like to be consistent and not change their minds. Pointing out your fabulous record of consistency is worse than bad. I know it's the sort of scum tell I see all the time when I play scum but no one ever believes me.

I think hewitt is earnest in his tunneling Thesp, in the same way that Talilan is earnest in tunneling Gaspar, and even sottyrulz recently tunneling me. I lean town on hewitt but not completely sure. Talilan is still riding on the KY Krew switch town cred and may well ride it forever as far as I'm concerned. I'm gonna say that sottyrulz may yet be town as well, but that's in part because I loathe to believe he's only massaging my ego to fit a scum agenda.

I like VP Baltar in post 1607. Changing one's opinion of a player from scum to town shows a refreshing disregard for consistency, and scum generally don't like to call players townie to boot. However I'm less fond with the consistency and earliness with which he pushed for a MafiaJin "what else can we do?" lynch. But then again I have 20:20 hindsight here.

I'm not adding much to the general sentiment that we put the more townie players off-camera.

All things considered, the scummiest moves off-camera came from VP Baltar. To a lesser extent, hewitt's easy fall back from Thesp to MafiaJin is a bit susp'.

OH yeah and I think I'm the idiot that didn't get the Evil Knievl pictures... oh well my ego high just came down a notch...

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Hydras do allow the exploitation of conflicting view points, simultaneously. Like, "I want to push the button but my other head doesn't."

When you consider how much WIFOM is involved, it's curious that there would be opposing opinions strong enough within a hydra that (1) the disagreement would be worth mentioning and (2) that the heads couldn't easily find an option to agree upon and shrug off the WIFOM cloud.

I did take notice that (and I'm going on memory here, correct me if I'm wrong) Gaspy and Starkiss both used this device. I felt that the Gaspy hydra had more uncertainty perhaps, and that both heads were closer to a grey area in the middle, than the Starkiss hydra who was really split in strong, opposite directions, with fewer justifications than the Gaspar hydra (again going by memory).

That's the impression they gave. The question is, was this an impression deliberately given? And to what end? And was it sincere, or was it staged?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Something caught my eye:

Scum never puts their eggs in the same basket. In standard games, some vote on the wagon, some off the wagon. They never really pile onto the same seat on the wagon.

This is patently wrong.

Er no. I'm right. You're wrong.

Thesp, nice of you to want to lynch anyone that made choices you did not like. I don't recall you being on-stage making choices a great deal, so it's pretty easy to blanket condemn everyone in one fell swoop. I'd like to see what YOUR record is going to look like. When you have one.

It's interesting to read Thesp going after Panzer/zu_Faul, before zu_faul did the townie town town break dance.

What's the "townie town town break dance"? I must have missed it.

It's called the fish dance and your hook is empty. Sorry. No catch of the day for you. We're not lynching Zu_Faul's player slot.

That's the impression they gave. The question is, was this an impression deliberately given? And to what end? And was it sincere, or was it staged?

What do you think?

I was out for a show, I'll check the details tomorrow.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Something caught my eye:

Scum never puts their eggs in the same basket. In standard games, some vote on the wagon, some off the wagon. They never really pile onto the same seat on the wagon.

This is patently wrong.

Er no. I'm right. You're wrong.

I would agree with you if you said it's uncommon for scum to lump together, but to suggest that they never do is wrong. (Is this DGB? Ask your partner about it.)

I said "they never

really

" and by "really" I do account for some leeway in the "never." As in "it's rare."

Thesp, nice of you to want to lynch anyone that made choices you did not like. I don't recall you being on-stage making choices a great deal, so it's pretty easy to blanket condemn everyone in one fell swoop.

Are you suggesting I should think that making consecutive wrong choices that disproportinately benefit scum is not scummy?

The record is limited. Especially in YOUR case, so it's pretty easy for YOU to act all perfect and untainted. In this regard your question to Starkiss is pretty leading. Why don't you actually come out and say what you think of Starkiss' actions instead of waiting for Starkiss to show up and give some lame answer, when you know we're a few hours from the deadline?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Basically she seems to be trying to say she isn't smart enough to be such a mastermind. I respectfully disagree.

Bless you.

In my opinion I don't think she hammered because we started to pressure her about her non commitment on the whole issue. I think at this point she didn't want to dirty her hands any further and so backed off.

I didn't back off. I stated, go look it up, that despite waiting for deadline to fall, I was taking full responsibility for the outcome. I wanted my share in the glory and light of making the right choice, but similarly since the choice turned out bad, I am tarred and feathered, vote or not. I accepted that when I stated my position, and I accept it now. As I wrote during the scene, on-camera, I should be counted as having voted, even if I technically didn't.

That's the way the cookie crumbles.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Yeah it's WIFOM, because I've been saying that elvis has redeemed the Gaspar player slot a great deal as time went along, and I've felt the heat of matches being lit on my toes.

Speaking of AP though... I was under a strong impression that someone else is the AP... and I don't think I'm the only one... and I'm not sure it means anything at all, but the person that right or wrong, is currently the obvAP, hasn't been killed.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

That wasn't very clear. My point is that Gaspar's question implies that he knows DGB & I are both town.

Splain?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I'm quite shocked, as I was nearly 100% certain that zu_Faul was the AP. I'll resume thinking after the shaking and trembling subside.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Back from badminton.

Here's my question. Suppose that the scum found out who the AP is, is it to their advantage to kill the AP?