Advertising Mafia - Over, see 1183

[Yosarian2]

Heh...ok, I just checked to see if the game thread was here yet for this game, and it's already 7 pages long.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, I think I'm starting to get a handle on this game now.

I like the way Adel is thinking here. We really want to keep the CEO and/or the creative director alive, assuming they are town, because it sounds like town gets at most 3 creative directors this game, then town loses all roles; less then that if the CEO dies. So, some combination of paranoid gun owner and bus driver seem a good way to protect people, so long as the third power role dosn't accidently target the PGO in the process.

One question; mod, can the CEO accidently be killed if he uses his appointment ability on the PGO and/or if he gets redirected to the PGO by the bus driver? Can he end up getting his appointment ability re-directed to someone else by the PGO, appointing the wrong person by mistake?

[Yosarian2]

Wait a second...I was wrong, I think you can't use the bus driver to re-direct someone and make them target the paranoid gun owner.

Paranoid Gun Owner Ability wrote:
During the Morning phase of Working Hours, you must choose one of you to use the following passive ability: anyone who targets you during that day will be killed. If you don't send a choice of a user until the end of Morning, one of you will randomly be chosen.


Bus Driver Ability wrote:
During Working Hours one of you may target two players; these two players will, from the time you sent your choice of target onwards until the end of the day, switch places for targeting purposes. The order in which you put the two players you target is important, because for tracking purposes, only your first target will register.

So, the bus driver has to TARGET two players, and if one of them is the PGO, then the bus driver would die, right?

[Yosarian2]

We really want to keep the CEO and/or the creative director alive, assuming they are town, because it sounds like town gets at most 3 creative directors this game, then town loses all roles

I read it as "at most 2 CDs this game" -- I think we only get to elect a new CD if the CEo is dead and hasn't used his one-shot ability to elect a new member yet.

Ahhh...ok.

So, the CEO dying right now dosn't really help the scum that much then, right? So we mostly just want to protect the CD.

[Yosarian2]

Wait a second...I was wrong, I think you can't use the bus driver to re-direct someone and make them target the paranoid gun owner.

that wasn't the point. The point was to cause either the CD or the CEO be hidden from scum guns.

Ok..then what is the point of the PGO again? Seems like a tracker would be more likely to catch a scum then the PGO would be to get the scum to target him, especally if the scum know that there is a PGO. Plus a tracker would be less likely to cause something stupid to happen.

[Yosarian2]

@yos: how many qt threads do you have access to?

From the looks of my role PM, 2 of them; one for the creative department, and one for my own creative team. I actually haven't been to either one yet, I've mostly just been trying to figure out the game thread so far; I'll check them out in a bit.

[Yosarian2]

So, the bus driver has to TARGET two players, and if one of them is the PGO, then the bus driver would die, right?

For targeting purposes, only the first target of the Bus Driver is taken into account.

Interesting.

Ok, so it sounds like the bus driver could re-direct someone to the PGO then, although everyone would have to be very careful how they sent their targets in. We'd have to be really careful if we decide to use the PGO, though, since it could even kill the CEO.

[Yosarian2]

Busdriver won't know who the PGO is. So if he wants to redirect to the PGO he simply puts his guess to who the PGO is out of the two remaining creative pairs second so that he does not die.

Well, an alternate way of doing it would be to announce who the PGO is, and use the bus driver to protect one of the high value targets by re-directing anyone who goes after them to the PGO. (High value targets are the CD, possibly the tracker, possibly the CEO.)

That should actually keep the CD even safer; scum might risk trying to kill the CD if the worst that'd happen is their kill might get redirected elsewhere, but if there's a high chance their kill will be sent right to the PGO, they probably won't try it.

[Yosarian2]

mod: Were alignments randomly assigned?

No comment.

That's...a very interesting thing for the mod to "no comment" on. It usually just goes without saying in a smalltown game. I'm wondering how much I should read into that.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, good to know.

[Yosarian2]

Well, you're right that roleblocker is more dangerous in scum hands.

The one thing that worries me about this plan is it seems we don't get much information; it seems very focused on keeping our key roles alive, with only 1 info role. So I'm worried that might backfire on us if we don't get as good options in the future; especally if "framer and undertaker" are options.

Still, it seems like this is the safe plan. Bus driver to keep the CD alive. We give the PGO and the Tracker roles to the pair that we think is the most likely to be town, and that both keeps them alive and should give us one tracker chance. Tracker dosn't have a big chance of catching a scum killing if we only have one of them, but it is the safest option.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: The only way the PGO poses a threat to the CEO is if he decides to use his one-shot ability to target the unknown PGO

today

. Since we've decided that the CEO shouldn't use his ability unless the CD dies or is otherwise compromised, there's no need for a new appointment to occur today barring the CD's death.

(nods) Yeah, I know. I just wanted to check and see if that was a threat or not, and apparently it is. Just something to keep in mind; i doubt it'll be an issue today.

Yos, you should know better than identifying the PGO. Not only does that neuter his ability to protect the role role he's paired with (either tracker or roleblocker), it allows scum to maneuver their kill to avoid his counter-kill.

Well...someone made a good point that identifying the PGO could be a problem since we won't know if the busdriver is town, and that's very valid; a scum bus driver who knows who the PGO is could lead to...problems.

That being said, if the bus driver is town, then identifying the PGO should completly prevent the scum from killing the CD or the tracker, unless they want to take a huge risk. Nothing else is as safe as "50% chance bus driver re-directs CD to PGO; 50% chance bus driver re-directs tracker to PGO"; that should completly stop the scum from killing either one.

[Yosarian2]

Sorry to hear that, cayke, I hope you feel better.

[Yosarian2]

Well...someone made a good point that identifying the PGO could be a problem since we won't know if the busdriver is town, and that's very valid; a scum bus driver who knows who the PGO is could lead to...problems.

How so? I'm under the impression that if the busdriver targets the PGO for a switch, the busdriver will be shot by the PGO. Scum or town, it's in the busdriver's survival interest

not

to target any of the creative teams for a switch.

Am I reading the busdriver's role correctly?

That's what I thought at first too, but I did check with the mod a few pages ago:

So, the bus driver has to TARGET two players, and if one of them is the PGO, then the bus driver would die, right?

For targeting purposes, only the first target of the Bus Driver is taken into account.

So, it sounds like the second target of the Bus Driver does not cont as a target. So, if I'm reading this right, the bus driver can re-direct someone to the PGO safely.

[Yosarian2]

Well, no one fake voted, but everyone seems to have more or less agreed to "tracker, pgo, bus driver".

[Yosarian2]

Vote:Budja

Because I didn't remember he was playing until I looked at the player list.

[Yosarian2]

vote: Ren Hoek

Started suspicion onto the creative director for a bad reason (saying random picks are bad/scummy). The scum would certainly want the director (if not scum) removed so this feels a little bad to me.

I like this logic a lot.

Unvote:Budja

; it was basically a vote for flying under the radar, and with this post, he's not flying under the radar anymore.

Vote: Ren Hoek

[Yosarian2]

I don't think it qualifies as "logic."

FOS: Yosarian
vote: Budja

It's completly logical that scum would be looking for a reason to lynch the CD, if the CD is town. You really seemed to be reaching to try to find reasons to attack the CD. Therefore...

[Yosarian2]

Nice OMGUS. Now why don't you tell me

why

my logic fails.

It would have to be logic in the first place, which it isn't.

Scum doesn't stick their necks out in broad daylight to work wagons on players that are threatening or inconvenient. They shut up about it during the day, and nightkill them. Right there, you "logic" breaks down.

Unless they can't. And with the bus driver, scum won't be able to kill the CD at night.

Scotmany was neither threat nor inconvenience to scum. Your "logic" takes another hit.

Um...he's the creative director. He gives out ALL of the power roles. If two creative directors die, or get lynched, or whatever, then boom, no more power roles, EVER. The CD is the biggest single asset the town has, and therefore the biggest threat to scum.

Not only that, it's not going to work for you to play dumb and act like you didn't know that, since it's already all been discussed in thread.

Yeah, the logic looks pretty solid to me.

[Yosarian2]

FoS: Ren Hoek

This will become a vote if he isn't at L-1.

I have 5/8 votes if my count is correct, so don't be a chicken and place your vote.

Could you explain again why you're voting for Budja here, Ren? It really just looks like OMGUS to me.

Also, what do you think about scotmany now?

[Yosarian2]

His reasons for voting me are spurious, at least from my point of view.

They're really clearly not spurious. He had good, logical reasons for voting you, as lots of logical intellegent people have pointed out and explained to you by now.

He may or may not be right, but all he's doing is agressive, logical scumhunting for valid reasons. Which you just said wasn't scummy.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah. What TDC said, Ren Hoek. The scum killed someone who was voting for you. If they had killed someone who was not voting for you, you would be dead right now.

Anyway, if the scum only get one kill a day, then the roles should be safe now, and tommorow there will be someone different in the roels anyway. So if the tracker saw anything, they should feel free to claim now; there's no risk to it now that the scum have already used their kill for the day.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah. What TDC said, Ren Hoek. The scum killed someone who was voting for you. If they had killed someone who was not voting for you, you would be dead right now.

Anyway, if the scum only get one kill a day, then the roles should be safe now, and tommorow there will be someone different in the roels anyway. So if the tracker saw anything, they should feel free to claim now; there's no risk to it now that the scum have already used their kill for the day.

tracker doesn't get results until end of day. Tracker should not claim until after he gets results.

Ah, good call.

[Yosarian2]

I have a strong reason to believe Ren Hoek is town. Everyone voting for him needs to explain what they think about the self-vote.

I think the fact that he put himself at lynch -1, and then the scum killed someone on his wagon, certanly does not make him look any better. Adel is probably right that the scum were hoping to get bus driven to a higher prirority target, but still.

[Yosarian2]

The points raised against FL are very solid, and I still haven't forgotten FL's "Damnit, I wish we had nothing to start off of" comment.

That's actually rather unfair, you know.

Fl actually said:

Sucks that we didn't have a random voting stage as now the game is really stalled. So in an effort to solve this.

Vote: Seraphim

For reasons previously stated and to get the discussion going .

He was upset the game was stalled, which makes perfect sense, because it was, and because a stalled game with a fixed deadline is very bad for the town. He suggested that it might be stalled because we didn't random vote so now no one knew how to get started, which might be correct. So he then voted for someone in an attempt to get something going.

That really dosn't sound at all like what you're claiming he said, sensfan...

[Yosarian2]

He was upset that we were in a position of a fixed deadline, except we were essentially entering D1 with 11 pages of discussion. But, ummmm...that's a hell of a lot

better

than it would be to start with a 'random' phase.

Again, he was upset we never got a random phase BECAUSE that seemed to have led to a game stall. I can't see you think that's an anti-town attitude. He certanly wasn't unhappy about the 11 pages we did have, he even apparently used that in his vote.

[Yosarian2]

Woah.

Are you generally pleased that all the wagons are on townies?

Excuse me, Ren? Care to explain that comment?

Anyway, I'm not happy about Sensfan's play recently. He said he thought the case on FL was very strong, then when asked to explain why, he got oddly evasive.

[Yosarian2]

[
Certainly. Adel's whipping of these three wagons by enticing the lurkers to do all the grunt work by answering her question, which I repeat is bizarrely limited to three players, mine being the only one that could be rightfully described as an actual wagon, suggests that Adel is scum, and is opportunistically trying to concentrate suspicion on what might be three convenient townies.

Meh. I don't really have a problem with that. Getting lurkers to post is always a good thing, and it's usually good to ask them specific questions when you do that. In this case, what she's asked them is basically to comment on the three people who have been attacked so far today and to say if they agree or disagree with those three attacks, which is a good way to get people focused on the game.

Basically, it seems pro-town and useful as far as I can see. It's generally a good idea to get everyone's opinions down in writing in the thread.

I have mixed feeling about you, ren. Your attack on Sens makes sense to me, but your response to what started as some mild pressure early in the day still looks like really scummy over-reaction and OMGUS vote to me.

Now that you seem a little more calm, could you try to explain your reaction to pressure and your vote for Budja again? It really sounds like you were just saying "his vote for me was irrational because I'm town", and then when multiple people explaned to you that his vote for you was completly rational, your reaction was to basically flip out.

You misrepresented the reasons for attacking you, claiming people were attackign you just because you were "agressive", while at the same time you were attacking people simply for voting you (which actually does seem like you were attacking people for being agressive to me). You called FarieLord scum just because he pointed out that people were voting for you for a valid reason, while not even responding to all the people who were carefully explaining why they were voting for you. Then you called me scum, claiming I was "looking foward to the nightkill" or something, and again it appears that it was only because I was attackign you. Then you voted yourself and put yourself at lynch -1.

Could you explain any of that, Ren? At this point, it's your reaction to pressure that really is making me keep my vote on you.

[Yosarian2]

I have a strong reason to believe Ren Hoek is town. Everyone voting for him needs to explain what they think about the self-vote.

I think the fact that he put himself at lynch -1, and then the scum killed someone on his wagon, certanly does not make him look any better. Adel is probably right that the scum were hoping to get bus driven to a higher prirority target, but still.

Your language is murky here. Are you saying that the fact he self-voted and scum killed a wagoner is a scumtell?

I think that if he was at lynch -1 and pro-town, scum would have had more reason to kill someone not on his wagon, since that would have lead to a "free lynch" for them. It's not conclusive, because scum might really have thought the bus driver would target sereph since he hadn't said anything, or something like that, but it certanly makes him look worse in my opinion.

[Yosarian2]

There may be players that found Budja's vote rational but I seriously doubt that they have done due diligence and considered the pro-town aspects of my play. I did not say his vote was irrational because I'm town, rather, I found his vote to be half-baked because it was not based on a holistic analysis of my play. If Budja is scum, his play is actually very rational.

Eh. Considering the very limited amount of information we had at the time, I think Budja's vote had more basis then anything anyone else was doing. It really looked like good, logical, pro-town scumhunting to me, albiet scumhunting with very limited information; he came to a logical conclusion that your actions in regards to scot made sense from a scum perspective, while seeming kind of a reach from a town perspective. That seems like just the kind of good, agressive play you were just saying was good, and yet you were voting him for it.

You misrepresented the reasons for attacking you, claiming people were attackign you just because you were "agressive", while at the same time you were attacking people simply for voting you (which actually does seem like you were attacking people for being agressive to me).

There are pro-town alternative explanations for my behavior. It find it unsettling that a wagon nearly led to my lynch over nothing. Agressive is nice, but reckless is potentially harmful.

I don't think the wagon would have gone nearly as far if it wasn't for your OMGUS looking reaction to having two votes on you.

You called FarieLord scum just because he pointed out that people were voting for you for a valid reason, while not even responding to all the people who were carefully explaining why they were voting for you.

I did respond. I found FL to be opportunistic.

You responded once, to the initial allegations; then several people pointed out that your response really wasn't correct and the inital allegations were logical. You didn't respond to any of that, except emotionally.

Could you explain any of that, Ren? At this point, it's your reaction to pressure that really is making me keep my vote on you.

Enjoy your tunnel.

Heh. I'm not tunneling; I'm also looking at Sensfan, I commented on the FL attack, and I also mentioned that I'm having second thoughts on you because I kind of like your sensfan attack. I just also wanted to explain exactally why I am keeping my vote on you, especlly since Budja's initial logic is now a fairly small part of the reason.

[Yosarian2]

Well, Sensfan, your attack against FL looked like you were misrepresenting him.

More to the point was your odd reluctance to answer the question Ren posed, which was "why do you think the case against FL was so solid?"

In these two posts, it looks like you choice to verbally fence with Ren rather then actualy just answer the question, and I don't understand why a pro-town person would resist explaining their case on someone.

...but instead of asking me to explain the points more clearly, he asked me to tell him why they were good.

What's the diff? You're the one that called them very solid. What's wrong with asking you to explain that?

You never said you didn't understand the points raised, you said you didn't think they were solid. If you understand the points being raised against FL, and you don't think they're worth much, how can I possibly convince you otherwise?

Also, I notice that you failed to respond to all the other points I raised, about how you strawmanned and misrepresented me.

If you understand the points being raised against FL, and you don't think they're worth much, how can I possibly convince you otherwise?

Maybe they seem weak because I don't understand them. Why don't you try? Unless you don't really think the case is "very solid" and you are merely being opportunistic scum.

Are you seriously saying that your stance is 'I don't know if I understand the points'?

Either you understand them and think they're weak, in which case you can't expect me to tell you why I think they're strong.
Or you don't understand them, in which case you can't call me scummy for understanding them and being suspicious of FL because of it.

You need to pick one of the two and stick to it. So which one is it?

[Yosarian2]

unvote, vote: crywolf20084

she has plenty of time to make plenty of tother post: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... ywolf20084
lurker-scum in this game

She's also been on scumchat a lot, which dosn't help her case.

[Yosarian2]

As it pertains to Ren's questions, the case was very clear in the thread, explained by both Adel and I. Had Ren asked me to explain the case again for him, I would gladly have done so, but he was saying "I understand the case, think its weak, but will vote you unless you can tell me why its strong", which is a clear no-win situation for me.

How is it a no-win situation for you?

If you had just answered the question and explained again exactally what the entire case was against FL and why you thought it was strong, then it may have convinced people you were right, it probably would have gotten more discussion going about the other details of your case, it may have gotten a response from FL, and it would have made it easier for people to see where you are coming from. If you are pro-town, and you think FL is likely scum, then those would all be good things.

[Yosarian2]

Sens, it should be very clear to you where you are been accused of misrepping FL.
Look at Yosarian's post 355. You have clearly taken FL out of context, will you accept this and does it affect your opinion of FL?

No, I don't accept its a misrep, since I still don't believe I misreped anything.

There is literally no pro-Town reason anyone would wish there was a RVS, given the situation.

The reason he gave, which was roughly "if there had been a rvs we probably wouldn't be stalled right now", is actually a pretty good pro-town reason, isn't it?

[Yosarian2]

Interesting, Adel.

I would mention that the fact that Sensfan did not try to get the tracker role for himself is probably a point in his favor.

[Yosarian2]

No. I took the role as soon as I saw it, and didn't discuss my choice.

(nods)

I'm glad he did, too; I hadn't realized that the mod was giving out those roles in those "creative team" quicktopic threads.

Anyway, hmm. Ok, assuming goat is telling the truth here and bussed scot and serephem, then that means that the scum must have tried to kill scot, which basically confirms scot as pro-town. Awesome.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm.

I'm honestly still not convinced by the case against FL. However, Adel is correct here; with Scot mostly confirmed, FL is more a liability then an advantage to the town at this point; he basically has a role that is significantly worse then a vanilla townie here.

Plus, especally after Adel's post 549, not quicklynching FL is frankly a risk the town can't afford to take here.

Vote: FaerieLord

[Yosarian2]

Actually,

Unvote, Vote:Farielord

, just to be safe.

[Yosarian2]

I'm thinking JK (targetting scot) for one team, Tracker + Bulletproof for another.

Yeah, that's what I would do. Course, I'm not a big fan of vigs.

[Yosarian2]

Ehh, I didn't neccesarily agree with lynching FL, rather have tried to lynch scum. I have to read the last page. Jailkeeper is an obvious choice. Yeah, and no to vigilantes incase I give it to scum.

Eh...at that point, though, especally after Adel laid it out in such detail, if we didn't quick lynch FL before he got back and he WAS scum, he would have used his one-shot right away, and either given your role to a scumbuddy or WIFOMed us into thinking he did. Either way, the jump from "The guy giving out the roles is confirmed town" to "town has no roles at all" would have totally killed the town this game, dramatically reducing our chances to win.

I personally thought there was only, say, a 30%-40% chance FL was scum (to pull a number out of thin air), but the risk of letting him live at that point was unacceptable.

[Yosarian2]

@yos, why don't you think it is scummy how goat grabbed the busdriver without consulting with you? You mentioned in the threads that sens not grabbing tracker should be a minor town tell, so why don't you think that goat grabbing busdriver isn't a minor scum tell for him?

Because I wasn't posting in that thread at all.

I hadn't realized the mod was going to give out roles in that thread; I was assuming he would do it by PM or something. To be honest, I'm generally not good at remembering to check quicktopic threads at all. Anyway, it wasn't until about 3 days after Goat took the role before I even realized that the role was there in that thread.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, the OGML post:

As always, OGML think's I'm scum, hah.

Anyway, he is right that one of my arguments against Ren, the one based on the kill, is no longer valid now that we know the scum tried to kill Scot, and hadn't actually intended to kill Serephem.

And no, I wasn't assuming that the scum was bus driven to Serephem. I was assuming that the scum didn't want to kill a creative team member because of the risk of PGO, they didn't want to kill scot because of the risk of bus driving, so they just targeted someone else, perhaps hoping to get bus driven back to scot if they got lucky. If that had been the scum motivation, then they certanly could just as easily have killed someone on the ren wagon as someone off of it.

Of course, we now know that I (and everyone else) was wrong about what happened, but I hardly see how that makes me scum.

[Yosarian2]

We haven't really used ours either.

If there was anything I specficially wanted to question goat about, I would do it in thread here and get reactions from other people as well.

[Yosarian2]

Harping on this position for so long, and as far as I can tell spending a large stretch of the game not commenting on much of anything else, was a scummy position to take.

I'm pretty sure I've "commented" on more then almost anyone else in the game, with the possible exception of Adel.

Ignoring even the possibility that the Sera kill was the result of the kill being busdriven in constructing your argument against Ren was scummy. Trying to get Ren lynched at all was scummy.

Oh, please.

You attack me for "ignoring the possibility" when no one else mentioned it either? Also, that was never my main reason for attacking Ren, and I specifically said that the kill thing wasn't conclusive, just that it was another point against him.

Your last sentance, . Ren was scummy looking. He overreached trying to lynch Scot, and then he over-reacted to mild pressure. I'm still not convinced he's town now, for that matter; the attempt to kill scot when it could have resulted in a ren lynch is a point in his favor, to be sure, but he's certanly not "confirmed".

Is scummy too. I think Yos, as town, would have made much better use of the private communication tool.

How so?

If I had something specific I wanted to talk about with goat, or ask goat, and didn't want to do it in thread, then I would. It hasn't come up. In a setup like this, when nearly all information is public, I'm not sure it will.

[Yosarian2]

The fact that you continue to try to smear Ren despite the fact he can only be scum if Goat is also scum is ridiculous Adel.

That's really not true.

Frankly, at the time of the kill, it really looked like ren was going to die no matter what. If you had been killed, then the town would have lost a key role, and the day would have suddenly ended. I'm not completly sure how the roles work in that case, but I think we would have started a new day without a creative director, and FL would have been forced to very quickly chose one in the middle of a rather chaotic situation.

Honestly, i wouldn't be surprised if the scum had decided that all that is worth sacrificing Ren for, especally as it really looked at the time like he was going to be lynched no matter what.

Now, again, the attempt at killing you is a point in Ren's favor. But is he "confirmed town"? Hell no. Not nearly as much as, say, you and goat are.

[Yosarian2]

"(27d)Immediate actions' public results (if any), most notably kills will be posted between 0 and 24 hours of me opening the PM, to avoid Time Zone differences breaking the game. "

Time of kill (with GMT+5 profile setting): Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:33 am
Time of Ren's self vote: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:18 am

~ a 5.5 hour difference.

Good point. So it's fairly likely that the when scum submitted the kill, Ren wasn't even at lynch -1

[Yosarian2]

Case against Adel coming up, courtesy of CKD and OGML, two players whom I very strongly believe to be town.

vote: Adel

Meh. I really have yet to see a single post by Adel I disagree with or think is scummy, either here or in the quicktopic thread.

I don't really get what the case is against Adel; the closest thing to a logical case against him I've seen is OGML's suggestion of a possible link between Adel and Sensfan, and if that's the only case against him, it dosn't make any sense to lynch Adel until we know Sensfan's alignment.

[Yosarian2]

Adel is almost certainly scum if Sens is town.

That...dosn't really make sense to me, scot.

[Yosarian2]

Adel and Yosarian and Budja all need to die.

Indeed I am not surprised that Yosarian finds Adel not in the least scummy.

And I am not surprised that Ren finds the three people who attacked him the most yesterday scummy, without giving any logical reason for any of it.

[Yosarian2]

And concerning yourself, Yosarian, the case has been made by others, mostly in the QT, and you're in for a treat when it becomes public.

Lol. Someone's "making a case" against me in the advertising quicktopic but is unwilling to say it in thread? Yeah, that sounds like a town way to act.

Anyway, if you think I'm scum, then bring it. Don't hide behind some argument you're claiming someone else made somewhere else; explain why you think I'm scum. Because you haven't yet.

More to the point, you also haven't explained why you think Adel is scum, even though you're voting for him.

[Yosarian2]

For reference, this is the case Ren made against Adel.

Case against Adel coming up, courtesy of CKD and OGML, two players whom I very strongly believe to be town.

vote: Adel

That's it. He's just hiding behind OGML.

[Yosarian2]

The more they try to discredit Ren, the more they look like scum.

Ren is playing like scum. He's been playing like scum all game. The scum kill attempt on Scot makes him look better, no question, and I'm not interested in lynching Ren today, but I do want him to at least explain his thought process.

[Yosarian2]

Excuse me? When have I ever been "passive" this game? I've been quite agressivly hunting scum all game. I led the attack against both Ren and Sens on day 1; I effectivly started both bandwagons.

He made a good case of misrepresentation on Sens in post 409 but failed to follow up on it at all which is what I dislike the most.

And this is completly untrue. I "followed up on it" a good deal, repeatedly asking Sens questions and attacking him on different points, and only kept my vote on Ren day 1 becaue he looked scummier, for reasons I explained in great detail.

What game are you reading here? I don't think it's this one.

He easily slips right under the radar.

Slips under the radar??? I've been consistantly one of the most active and agressive people in this game.

Yos looks scummy to me. I still think sens is scummy so no vote change. I would like to see Sens and Yos's opinions of each other as of now.

Sens is my main suspect, which should have been quite obvious from my posts.

[Yosarian2]

I led the attack against both Ren and Sens on day 1; I effectivly started both bandwagons.

CODE RED! BULLSHIT ALERT!

Is this what you call effectively starting the Ren wagon, Yos?

vote: Ren Hoek

Started suspicion onto the creative director for a bad reason (saying random picks are bad/scummy). The scum would certainly want the director (if not scum) removed so this feels a little bad to me.

I like this logic a lot.

Unvote:Budja

; it was basically a vote for flying under the radar, and with this post, he's not flying under the radar anymore.

Vote: Ren Hoek

Because it looks to me more like blatant piggybacking.

I put the second vote on him. And then, I continued to push the wagon in my next 5 posts, while Brudja wasn't really saying anything. So, yes, I do believe I started the ren wagon.

Wasn't that basically why you were attacking me earlier?

And as for Sens, it was hard to even find anything where you even addressed him, let alone started his bandwagon, since you never actually voted for him.

Are you shitting me?

This post of mine, right here, was hte argument the entire Sens wagon was based on.

The points raised against FL are very solid, and I still haven't forgotten FL's "Damnit, I wish we had nothing to start off of" comment.

That's actually rather unfair, you know.

Fl actually said:

Sucks that we didn't have a random voting stage as now the game is really stalled. So in an effort to solve this.

Vote: Seraphim

For reasons previously stated and to get the discussion going .

He was upset the game was stalled, which makes perfect sense, because it was, and because a stalled game with a fixed deadline is very bad for the town. He suggested that it might be stalled because we didn't random vote so now no one knew how to get started, which might be correct. So he then voted for someone in an attempt to get something going.

That really dosn't sound at all like what you're claiming he said, sensfan...

I then continued to push the argument througout the day.

So, yeah, out of the 3 real bandwagons yesterday, I consider myself the primary cause of 2 of them. Which is why it's complete bullshit for anyone to accuse me of not being agressivly scumhunting this game.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I hear someone say that they "started" a bandwagon, I expect a vote to be involved.

(shrug) Well, hey, when I think I've caught two scum on the same day I can't vote for both of them.

You just made random potshots when it was easy, like this one:

Anyway, I'm not happy about Sensfan's play recently. He said he thought the case on FL was very strong, then when asked to explain why, he got oddly evasive.

"when it's easy"? I consistantly had problems with Sen's behavior all day on day 1.

And, even stranger than this, you took issue with Sens dodging REN of all people:

Well, Sensfan, your attack against FL looked like you were misrepresenting him.

More to the point was your odd reluctance to answer the question Ren posed, which was "why do you think the case against FL was so solid?"

In these two posts, it looks like you choice to verbally fence with Ren rather then actualy just answer the question, and I don't understand why a pro-town person would resist explaining their case on someone.

Ren, of course, being the same person you're still busy trying to crucify.

Did you read my posts? Because I made pretty clear that the one thing that made me doubt the case against Ren was the way Ren was attacking Sensfan; I thought Ren's attacks on sesfan looked more pro-town then anything else Ren had done all game, and I said so; and I wanted to hear Sens's response to it.

Of course, you're into the full-blown "Make everything Yos does sound bad" phase, the exact same thing you've done the LAST 6 or so games we've played together where you've completly stopped listening to anything I say.

In fact, Yos never once moved his vote from Ren after placing it except to help quicklynch FL.

And I explained why I was keeping my vote on Ren in some detail.

Again, you're making observations of things I did that were pretty clearly pro-town actions, that I explained in great detail already, and trying to make them sound bad. Which, again, is typical.

And after Adel is lynched and flips scum, this post right here will be the final nail in Yosarian's coffin.

Bullshit. Adel is playng like he does when town; he's trying to get everoyne to post, he's getting people's opinions, and he's suggesting stratagy. This argument against him is shit. You have yet to point out a SINGLE post of Adel's that looks at all scummy.

And what's worse is it seems like you're not actually making your cases in the thread; I am getting the impression you seem to be using the accounting quicktopic to manipulate people into agreeing with you, instead of actually making your arguments in thread where people could respond to them. Is that the case, OMGL? Frankly, I don't care about you attacking me for bad reasons, because that's consistant with your meta, but the fact that you seem to mostly be doing it in secret does not.

[Yosarian2]

Given that Yos hasn't even had the cajones to actually vote for Sens yet today, despite ratcheting up the rhetoric, I'd say this qualifies more as distancing than bussing, if they are indeed scumbuddies.

I'll vote when I think voting is the pro-town move to do, thank you very much.

[Yosarian2]

1.) First and for most was his defense of Sens. Sens was acting quite scummy. His (sens) attack and vote of FL (town) was stretchy at best. Adeltown has nothing to gain by defending Sens especially in light of his actions. Adelscum defending Senstown on the other hand not only gains a buddy, but if Sens flips town, buys himself town creds.

That's bad logic, CKD. IF you think Sensfan is town (and it sounds like you do, from the rest of your post), then Adel defending him has to be considered a pro-town act. Now, if Sensfan is scum, then Adel defending sensfan is definatly a big point against him. But I hate the "X defended Y, and Y was town, so X must have been scum!" argument you seem to be going for here. If a pro-town town person thinks someone else is town, they bloody well should defend them.

[Yosarian2]

Of course, you're into the full-blown "Make everything Yos does sound bad" phase, ......

I'm uneasy with the above defense.

That's not a defense. Just a growing frustration from this happening every single time I play a game with OGML.

[Yosarian2]

And what's worse is it seems like you're not actually making your cases in the thread; I am getting the impression you seem to be using the accounting quicktopic to manipulate people into agreeing with you, instead of actually making your arguments in thread where people could respond to them.

actually, I think that carrying on conversations in as many threads as possible is a good thing for the town.

It depends how you do it. It feels like this game is suddenly splintering into a "creative" thread faction and an "advertising" thread faction, and that seems very bad for the town. I really wonder if someone in the advertising thread is doing that on purpose, intentionally, probably with a "divide and conquer" type scum motive. I am only speculating at this point, since I don't actually know what's going on in the advertisng thread; whoever is in that thread and town, I would like to know exactally what is going on over there.

[Yosarian2]

Ren is playing like scum. He's been playing like scum all game

What is scummy about Ren's play at this point in time (or, at least, at the time you posted this?)

At the time I posted that? Did you see Ren's last post before I said that?

He was riding OGML's coattails in order to join/support multiple bandwagons while not giving any reason at all. He was using as his only justification for any of it some argumnt that was being made in the Account thread, while not telling the rest of us what that argument might be.

[Yosarian2]

If this outburst is real, fine. Replace out of this game right fucking now and let someone whose point of view isn't "Fuck Mafia" play and enjoy themselves. And get fucked while you're at it.

ok. bye.

I hope you don't replace out of the game, Adel. You've been making more sense then anyone else in this game lately.

[Yosarian2]

Adel is very proud of his recent winning record, and ability to avoid being lynched. If he felt he was about to be lynched, he'd be disappointed, but not to this extent. However, if his team was losing, and bickering internally, if he felt his scumbuddies were incompetent (which might mean we are on the right track with our suspicions), he might take his ball and go home.

I don't believe Adel would do that. Getting replaced out because you think you're going to lose is an incredibly wimpy move.

Railing against me, then voting SensFan looks like desperate "trying to mix things up with wild signs" that we'll interpret later.

Really? Because both votes made perfect sense to me.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, now that someoen has been killed, I can finally discuss my other suspects.

Sensfan is still high on the list, mostly for reasons I explained yesterday. Other people who seem likely scum to me:

Ojanen: Lurker replacing a lurker. Always a bad sign, especally since crywolf didn't look especally town back when she was in the game. I hope to hear from him soon.

I had previously thought Budja looked town. However, I really don't like the way that, once other people started to say they suspected me, he suddenly and oppertunistically flipped and made a case on me; and then when I pointed out that his case against me was completly untrue, he vanished, and is now lurking. He's moved down to the scummy side of the list.

As for the current factional combat going on here; I think it's fairly likely that OGML and Adel are both town butting heads; Adel seems pretty obviously pro-town to me, and while I'm not quite so confident on OGML, I'm going to take the very agressivly scumhunting way he came charging into the game as a (moderate) town tell coming from him, even though I think he's wrong in many of his assumptions. If that's the case, then I would expect scum to be falling in line behind one of the two of them and trying to keep the conflict going; probably either Ren or CKD are the two who look worst as far as that goes.

[Yosarian2]

...How exactly does the Sens vote make sense to you Yos? This is the same person that said on several occasions that he believes Sens to be town.

Consistancy is a scum tell.

Town can and should always be willing to change their minds 180 degrees in the blink of an eye when given new information, or just when re-assesing old information. In fact, it's generally better if they do; makes it harder for scum to manipulate town using the nightkill to keep those alive who trust them and kill those who don't. The only people who should be worried about consistancy are scum, because they're more worried about being lynched then about how they look.

In this case, I think Adel's sudden flip on Sensfan makes sense, and I also think it was a very pro-town thing to do. For one thing, if Sens does flip scum, then the way people reacted to Adel's sudden change of heart will give us lots of information, I think.

[Yosarian2]

Also, the Ren vote was ridiculous and scummy. The constant attempt to discredit Ren by both Adel and you, Yos, is scummy and not protown.

Scot...if town "confirms" a scum, if town decides that a specific person MUST be town, and is wrong, then town basically always loses because of it.

You are pretty close to confirmed. Goat is pretty close to confirmed. Ren is not. It always makes me nervous when people start declaring someone to be 100% confirmed town when they're not, because that can be a devistatingly effective scum tactic if the town buys into it.

I realize that attacking Ren will make people suspect me more here, at least unless and until Ren flips scum, but I don't care; I am going to continue to say what I think. And I think that the "ren is 100% confirmed town now and anyone who dares to doubt him must be scum" argument is garbage.

I would also say that the reasons Adel gave for his Ren vote are much, much more convicing and logical to me then any reasons anyone has thus far given for voting Adel.

[Yosarian2]

Also, this post

I don't have much time but

The more they try to discredit Ren, the more they look like scum.

vote: Ren Hoek

is fucking awesome.

[Yosarian2]

There is no way someone of your caliber Yos would look at the points against Adel and say they aren't logical or convicining.

I'm looking at the posts Adel made and I can see that he's looking at the game the exact same way that I am, and he's making more sense to me then anyone else in the game is, which means he probably has the same alignment I do.

Also, I missed this earlier, but the fact that you said CKD looks the worst (I'm ignoring the Ren statement, it is irrelevant at this point) when CKD actually made a decent case on Adel is condemning. You are no way playing how I would expect you too as town.

Hah.

There are 3 people really attacking Adel here; OGML, Ren, and CKD. I think OGML's actions, his agressivness and scumhunting, seem townish to me, and in line with his meta. However, this Adel wagon is so clearly terrible that I would have trouble beliving it's not pushed by scum right now.

I'm not at all convicned by CKD's case against Adel; more to the point, if I'm right and Adel is town, the timing of CKD's case, coming after OGML got the wagon moving, makes me think he's likely scum here.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, TDC dying is a major point against you.

?

How is that?

[Yosarian2]

My best guess is that what happened here is that the scum saw the two most active townies butting heads and saw the entire town starting to splinter into two groups, and they didn't want to prevent that from happening, so they killed off someone was uninvolved in the whole mess; TDC's one of the few active players who didn't take a side in the fight.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, TDC dying is a major point against you.

?

How is that?

Scum have an incentive to get rid of the creative pairs. The only people who would know that TDC-Budja do not have bulletproof are TDC-Budja (Budjascum has an incentive to keep TDCtown alive, so that he can continue getting abilities) and the creative team that I gave the bulletproof too, which is you, Yos, and Goat. Doesn't make sense for Budja to kill him, and scum in accounting wouldn't know who had the bulletproof, unless there is scum in creative. So that leaves you Yos, since I in no way believe Goat to be town.

Sens, considering the plan, and considering how absolutly clear you were in thinking Goat was confirmed, I'm pretty sure it was obvious from the start that me and goat were going to get tracker-bulletproof.

That's actually the reason for this:

Anyway, now that someoen has been killed, I can finally discuss my other suspects.

I discussed this with Goat in the quicktopic, once we got assigned the roles. I've been assuming all day that me/goat would very likely end up getting the tracker/bulletproof roles, and that the scum would be able to predict that just as easily. Which is why I was unwilling to discuss my suspicions in thread, other then Sensafan, until after the scum used their kill.

Tracker is a tricky role, because scum are always going to try to send someone you don't think is scum to do the kill. (So, I was already assuming they were never going to send Sensfan, if Sensfan is scum, because he's widly suspected; that's why I didn't mind talking about Sensfan, because me and Goat had already agreed he would be a bad tracking choice). The odds of a tracker suceeding drops lower if the scum knows who the tracker is, unless the tracker delibratly avoids revealing in thread who he suspects. Which is why I didn't at all mention in thread that my two main suspects are currently CKD and Ojanen until after the track went out, and it's also why I had not voted. (I would have been willing to vote sensfan if he had been my #1 suspect, but he's actually more like #2 or 3.) I believe it's also why Goat has been acting the same way, and hasn't really attacked anyone in thread today.

Anyway,

Vote:Ojanen

for the moment, at least until we get some real content from him.

Seeing as how you seem to be pushing for a sens lynch (I can't really tell since you haven't voted yet), that would get rid of that creative pair's ability to gain abilities, and killing TDC keeps Budjja from getting abilities. Basically, if Sens, or even Adel is lynched, you are Goat are now the only group that can get abilities (unless I reassign, even then you still have incentive to make me use my ability).

Ah, I see what you're saying. On the other hand, that's also why ANY scum would rather kill someone from the creative team then, say, someone from the accounting team; if the scum can't kill you, then if they kill off enough creative team members, it has the same affect of denying scum roles.

The accounting team are basically vanillia; the main scum targets would always be you and any town creative team members.

[Yosarian2]

Consistancy is a scum tell

In what bizarre world is this the case?

In ours. It's a useful way to look at mafia games, and I've found it to be very effective; it's a scumtell I've used for quite a while now, actually.

Town don't bother to be consistant; they change their minds, they shift as the mood hits them, because they'd rather be right then consistant. Scum tend to try much harder to avoid contradicting themselves.

I agree that town players should change their mind based on new information, but the big flaw in your stance is that

there was no new information regarding SensFan....or Ren Hoek for that matter.

There sure was. On Ren Hooks, the new information was that a whole shitload of people were suddenly trying to convince the town he was 100% confirmed based on a bad argument, and also trying to make it sound like anyone who dared to question Ren must be scum. That was quite clearly why Adel voted Ren, and it's a good reason too.

As for Sensfan...eh. If you read Adel's defense on Sensfan day 1, it was pretty clear Adel was already starting to get frustrated with his play; he didn't want to lynch Sens at that point in time, but was starting to become uncomfortable with some of his behavior. I don't find Adel's flip there at all surprising.

The fact that you are trying to argue that Adel's votes on Ren and Sens wasn't bad play is laughable.

You say that now, but if Ren and Sens both flip scum you'll be talking out of the other side of your mouth.

In this case, I think Adel's sudden flip on Sensfan makes sense, and I also think it was a very pro-town thing to do. For one thing, if Sens does flip scum, then the way people reacted to Adel's sudden change of heart will give us lots of information, I think.

Are you trying to make the argument that Adel voted SensFan for the purpose of the information we would learn? There's absolutely no way that's true. He voted Sens out of spite/frustration/anger, not as some ploy to gather information for the town.

No, I'm pretty sure Adel voted Sens because he thought Sens was scum, not out of "spite/frustration/anger". The way he did it was a good pro-town play because of the information we get from it; I'm not sure if he had specifically planned it that way, but he very well may have; even upset as he was, I'm pretty sure Adel always has multiple reasons for everything he does in a mafia game, just like I do.

However, this Adel wagon is so clearly terrible that I would have trouble beliving it's not pushed by scum right now.

Prove it to me. You continually assert Adel is pro-town but you've given pretty much no reasons to believe this is the case. The argument "Adel is playing down the center of his town meta here" doesn't hold water without corroborating evidence.

Well, for one, Adel has done more to help the town then anyone else in the game. OGML attacked Adel for "discussing stratagy", but the truth is, if it wasn't for Adel's stratagy suggestions, Scot would have been dead day 1, and his replacement would very be dead now. If you look at the post, before Adel came in and figured out the ideal pro-town stratagy, no one had even really considered using either a bus dirver or a PGO.

[Yosarian2]

Which one of you took tracker? I don't see anywhere in Yos's post where he says directly.

As Adel pointed out yesterday, sensfan, there is no reason to claim that until the tracker gets information. And it was good Adel didn't claim early, also, because the timing of Adel's claim helped confirm Goat; Adel only said that he had tracked Goat after Goat already claimed his target, so we know Goat told the truth without knowing he would be confirmed.

[Yosarian2]

As for Sensfan...eh. If you read Adel's defense on Sensfan day 1, it was pretty clear Adel was already starting to get frustrated with his play; he didn't want to lynch Sens at that point in time, but was starting to become uncomfortable with some of his behavior. I don't find Adel's flip there at all surprising.

I viewed Adel as being frustrated with Sens overall production, but he didn't find anything he did scummy. He believed him to be a sloppy town, and was frustrated at him for doing that. It doesn't look like he was ever uncomfortable with his view on Sens's alignment.

Which one of you took tracker? I don't see anywhere in Yos's post where he says directly.

As Adel pointed out yesterday, sensfan, there is no reason to claim that until the tracker gets information. And it was good Adel didn't claim early, also, because the timing of Adel's claim helped confirm Goat; Adel only said that he had tracked Goat after Goat already claimed his target, so we know Goat told the truth without knowing he would be confirmed.

I'm confused as to why sensfan is in this post.

Sorry. Like goat said, that should have been your name, not sensfans.

[Yosarian2]

Consistancy is a scum tell.

Town can and should always be willing to change their minds 180 degrees in the blink of an eye when given new information, or just when re-assesing old information. In fact, it's generally better if they do; makes it harder for scum to manipulate town using the nightkill to keep those alive who trust them and kill those who don't. The only people who should be worried about consistancy are scum, because they're more worried about being lynched then about how they look.

In this case, I think Adel's sudden flip on Sensfan makes sense, and I also think it was a very pro-town thing to do.

You're conflating two completely different things here. Nobody is saying that Adel is scummy for changing his mind. The problem is that he changed her mind

without any apparent basis for doing so

Assume that at time =

t

, Person X suspects Person Y for reason A.
If, at any time= >

t

, Person X does not suspect Person Y for reason then, all else being equal (ie. no new reasons), Person X at time = >

t

is contradicting Person X at time =

t

.

You are still assuming that somehow contradicting yourself or changing your mind is inherently scummy, which I completly disagree with.

If Person X thinks person Y is town, then they re-think things, or something dosn't sit right, or they have a gut feeling, or whatever, and they change their mind and vote person Y, that's not a scum tell at all. Town should do that.

If you think that anyone voting for sensfan at the time Adel did would have been scummy, then that's one thing. But there's no reason to evaluate Adel's vote any differently just because at one point earlier in the game he had a different opinion.

For one thing, if Sens does flip scum, then the way people reacted to Adel's sudden change of heart will give us lots of information, I think.

Yes, but that is completely irrelevant as to the question of whether or not Adel is scummy.

If Adel's actions were good pro-town behavior, for whatever reason (and yes, gathering infromation can be a good reason), then how could that possibly be "irrelevent to the question of whether or not adel is scummy"?? That dosn't make sense, Volkan.

[Yosarian2]

... and it needs to be a quicklynch so that the scum team won't have a chance to discover the optimal tactic to use from this point to defend FL.

Please give me your best guess of what Adel meant by this. FL-scum self-nominating to being new CD or what?

If FL was scum, and he had realized he was about to be quicklynched, he would use his one-shot ability and appoint someone new as CD, yeah. At the point Adel made that post, I think he was trying to not actually spell it out, so as to not accdiently tell FL scum what to do.

[Yosarian2]

..but if FL was scum, would it have been plausible that he would have outed himself early by appointing someone new as CD if not under Adel's pressure?

He would have eventually used his ability, is the thing. He might have appointed a scumbuddy, or he might have appointed someone on the theory that we'd assume that person is his scumbuddy, ect.

If FL was scum, he would have to be lynched eventually if town were to win, and he would always be able use his ability before being lynched to screw over the town. Unless he was suddenly speedlynched when he wasn't on and wasn't expecting it.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. Despite of the eventuality, why is it good to attempt this speedlynch on day 1 rather than later? If it doesn't succeed and FL-scum would happen to be online after all, town would be screwed of several days of powerroles because of it.

Fair enough. Adel's play was risky.

I would guess that the timing of Adel's play was related to us finding out Scotmany was confirmed; once he was confirmed, it became more important to make sure that he couldn't be removed from the CD position.

[Yosarian2]

Yos' lurkervote is

so lame

right now.

(nods) Thank you, OGML. Yeah, he's not lurking anymore, obviously.

Unvote

Vote:CKD

I'd be willing to lynch CKD, Bruja, or Sensfan today.

[Yosarian2]

quote="Yosarian2"]
That's bad logic, CKD.

IF you think Sensfan is town

(and it sounds like you do, from the rest of your post),

then Adel defending him has to be considered a pro-town act

. Now, if Sensfan is scum, then Adel defending sensfan is definatly a big point against him. But I hate the "X defended Y, and Y was town, so X must have been scum!" argument you seem to be going for here. If a pro-town town person thinks someone else is town, they bloody well should defend them.

the bolded is a fucking silly statement and I think someone who has played mafia as much as you knows this. there is a big difference between someone defending someone they think are town when that person is doing towny actions AND what has happened here. Sens was being all types of scummy and Adel was defending him based on...on...I am not even sure, a fucking meta?[/quote]

Ok, so what if a person isn't making "townie actions", as you call them, but you think they're town for some other reason? Are you supposed to just shut up, sit back, and let them get lynched without saying anything? Of course not. If you think that a certain wagon will result in a town lynch, you should oppose it; I'm not really sure how that can even be up for debate.

So? He used it to lynch a townie. I understand it was “tactically” sound. But still does that make it a pro-town move? I think Adel exploited the game mechanics to push his agenda.

It's possible, but I think this is a case of an action that could just as likely have pro-town or anti-town motives. I'm considering it a null tell.

I agree....this make absolutely NO sense.

Why? What's wrong with Adel voting sensfan there?

I'm not at all convicned by CKD's case against Adel; more to the point, if I'm right and Adel is town, the timing of CKD's case, coming after OGML got the wagon moving, makes me think he's likely scum here.

Really? What if I told you in the QT thread, I was the one that got the Adel wagon "moving"? What if it was Ren? Have a feeling you would be pushing us as scum but providing different reasons.

Eh, I doubt it. It's pretty clear OMGL game into the game with a new perspective that was quite different from anyone else's, and that he came to different conclusions that were different; before OGML replaced in, I really think everyone thought Adel was town. I do think oppertunistic scum would take advantage of, and hide behind, an agressive player like OGML if he's wrong.

sure, his position has nothing to do with it. again scot is right...it DOES make you (and adel/sens) worse. No way am I believing that you dont see that.

Again...we've got a creative director, if 2 of them die, no more roles; creative team people he can give roles to, and if enough of them die, no more roles, and everyone else is basically a vanilla townie. If the scum can't kill Scot, I would expect them to prefer to kill a member of the creative team, no matter what role the scum happen to have. Yes, there's an added benifit if Adel/Sens or me were scum, but it dosn't relaly change anything; the scum would be expected to do that anyway.

I mean, really; how often would you expect to see a scum kill a vanilla role instead of a power role? Scum couldn't kill scot. Scum would knew that trying to kill either me or goat would likely fail, because we were likely to get bulletproof. Adel and Sensfan, if either or both of them are town, were under attack and likely to be lynched. Who would you expect scum to kill?

[Yosarian2]

Goat: I already explained this in thread. This was the point when I changed my mind and started suspecting Budja.

I had previously thought Budja looked town. However, I really don't like the way that, once other people started to say they suspected me, he suddenly and oppertunistically flipped and made a case on me; and then when I pointed out that his case against me was completly untrue, he vanished, and is now lurking. He's moved down to the scummy side of the list.

He's not actually lurking any more, but none of his posts since then have looked especally town either.

[Yosarian2]

there is a big difference from someone saying "hey I think X is town" and saying "I am not willing to let X be lynched today". Sens was not doing anything town. Even Adel stated in his QT that Sens was acting strange. SO if Adel REALLY thought that, why would he go out of the way to defend Sens ONLY when Sens was getting serious heat?

Why Adel defend Sens when Sens wasn't getting serious heat?

Looks to me like Adel sat back and let the situation with Sens play out for a while, then when it looked like Sens was going to get lynched, started to defend him. Which see me like a reasonable way for a pro-town person do if you think someone being attacked is a likely pro-town; let it play out, let them defend themselves if they can, but try to head of the wagon if it looks like they're going to get lynched.

Why? What's wrong with Adel voting sensfan there?

Are you reading that game? Adel was voting Sens, for exactly the same reason he was defending him earlier...and only after avoiding my case.

That's the second time you said that, CKD; why do you think Adel was defending Sensfan BECAUSE he was lurking? Adel never said anything of the sort.

yet you didnt answer the question...before I post the QT, I want to know the fucking answer to my question, if it is discovered that I (or Ren...or vollkan) was the first person in the QT with suspicion of Adel....are you going still push that I am scum....answer now please...or is OMGL now scum for following. hint: your bullshit case is about ready to fail

I think that someone pushing the Adel wagon right now is scum; the wagon has the feel of a scum driven wagon. OMGL's posts in thead look town-ish to me.

(shrug) It depends. If you had some really good argument in the QT (hopefully one better then the really weak case you posted in thread), and posted that before OMGL replaced into the game, then that would likely change my opinion of you.

Of course, then I would wonder why you were attacking Adel in the quicktopic and not in thread, and letting someone else take the lead in thread.

Dont know, you do have a point here....but the fact doesnt change...the TDC DOES make you, Sens, and Adel/MS look worse, if just by being alive...his kill also (in my opinion) make Bud look better

It really dosn't change anything about me, goat, sens, or adel; it would be the correct scum move no matter what any of our alignments are.

You are right, though, that it's a point in Budja's favor.

[Yosarian2]

Dont know, you do have a point here....but the fact doesnt change...the TDC DOES make you, Sens, and Adel/MS look worse, if just by being alive...his kill also (in my opinion) make Bud look better

Disagree with it making Sens and Adel/MS look bad. Only makes Yos look bad.

?

That dosn't make sense, scot.

[Yosarian2]

That's the second time you said that, CKD; why do you think Adel was defending Sensfan BECAUSE he was lurking? Adel never said anything of the sort.

so the answer is you are not reading

curious adel, what has sens done or not done that has given you such a town read on him (pre whiny townie post)?

not played up to his level, and I take a lack of investment as a town tell for him.

That's not at all the same as "lurking", CKD.

[Yosarian2]

also, what is your case again?

(shrug) I took a good look at the game dynamics here, and tried to figure out where the scum would be. Where they would be is where you are; buddying up to OGML and perhaps Ren, generally being more of a follower.

You posted a huge case against Adel, but most of it was garbage that had nothing to do with his alignment. Changing your mind is not scummy. Defending someone is not scummy on it's own.

Basically, I think you're opportunistic scum pushing a bad wagon. You didn't give any sign in thread that you had a problem with Adel's play, until Adel seemed vulnerable. Then you jumped on him in with a huge 5 point case, but one that said very little, and frankly much of it looks like filler to me; it looks like an attempt to fake scumhunting by posting a lot of words.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian is still alive? I disagree with virtually every word he posts.

unvote, vote: Yosarian

Why, because I'm not willing to pretend you're confirmed town? Or because I'm not willing to get behind the bullshit attack on Adel?

[Yosarian2]

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian

Michel can have a day's reprieve while we take care of this.

10 bucks says CKD has no problem with you or Ren attacking me with absolutly no reason or case, despite his earlier post.

[Yosarian2]

I've already explained it. And yes it does. I don't buy into the whole thing of me giving the bulletproof to you was obvious.

How so? Who else would you have possibly given it to, other then the pair containing the confirmed tonwie, goat?

This is a serious question; what likely role distribution could you have done that wouldn't give the bulletproof role to our pair?

[Yosarian2]

OGML has giving his reasons countless of times why he believes you to be scum. And you forget that they have a QT where they can discuss stuff like this. Not to mention CKD has made it fairly obvious that he is going to post that QT.

Eh. I really think it's likely that CKD is scum trying to buddy up/form an "alliance" with OGML here.

I am very interested to see the quicktopic to see what's been going on in there, to see if it supports my theory or not. I really am getting the vibe that there's manipulative scum in that quicktopic conversation; the whole game suddenly took a wierd turn not long ago, not long before Adel quit, and it seems to be coming from there.

[Yosarian2]

OGML has giving his reasons countless of times why he believes you to be scum.

Also, sorry for triple posting, but he certanly hasn't made any kind of case against me or given any actual reason for suspecting me, not in thread anyway, other then his suggesting I'm linked to Adel just because I think Adel is town. Everything else is just random mudslinging, like the post where he declared "code red, bullshit alert" about my discription of my play on day 1, and then ignored my response where I demonstrated that I had been telling the entire truth.

[Yosarian2]

The one role that would suck if given to scum would be the jailkeeper, as that would lead to my death, which would cripple the town, especially if we aren't given a protective role tomorrow.

Eh. If you had gotten killed, then 95% chance we lynch the jailkeeper that day. I don't know how big a risk that would have been, considering the cost to the scum; I definatly would have assumed that if you were giving one group "bulletproof-tracker" and one group "jailkeeper", you would have given bulletproof-tracker to the group you trusted the most.

And no, bulletproof isn't the most important role, tracker is. Bulletproof is mostly just there to protect the tracker. Also, the bulletproof protects the confrimed townie as well, that's a big bonus.

[Yosarian2]

Yes he has. Go look at his posts in isolation. He has given many reasons of why he suspects you to be scum, and they do not all have to do with Adel.

No. He had many posts attacking me and trying to make every single thing I've done all game sound bad. He didn't have any posts at all that actually contained a case against me or a coherent argument for my actions being more likely scum then town.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you suggested that the scum would have killed me yesterday even if Ren was scum. You suggested they were willing to get rid of one of their own to get rid of me, the most valuable role to the town. So I would expect you believe that the scum would have killed me had I given them jailkeeper.

The difference being that yesterday Ren looked like he was going to get lynched no matter what.

And regardless of how obvious you think it might be, you cannot obviously believe the scum would not find someone on the accounting team to be a threat? It would be much safer for scum to attempt a kill on one of them, rather than risk hitting the bulletproof with TDC.

Eh. Even if the scum didn't predict what you were going to to it's, at worst, a 1/6 chance that TDC ends up with bulletproof. This is the same scum group that tried to kill you even though there was a much higher chance then that that you'd get bus driven.

Yos, you need to answer this now. Did you take the tracker role?

No. I suggested it might be safer if Goat take the bulletproof role but I left the choice up to him, and he took the tracker role.

[Yosarian2]

He still made a case against you, and he has posted many reasons why he believes you to be scum.

Ok, name 1 good reason he's given for why he thinks I'm scum.

[Yosarian2]

You not starting either bandwagon even though you claimed to have. You did not start the Ren wagon, and you most certainly did not start the Sens wagon.

I feel like I'm responsible for startign both wagons; my second vote on the ren wagon, and then pushing it, really got that one going, and my arguments against sens were responsible for the sens wagon starting.

And frankly, it doesn't matter if you think they are good points or not. He has made a case against you, something you seem to deny.

Eh, we're arguing semantics here, I think; you seem to have a different idea of what a "case" is then I do. 's not really important.

[Yosarian2]

No it didn't. Scum had no way of knowing how the town would have reacted with the selfvote. The wagon on Ren was never as strong as you might want to think, and it did not look like Ren would have been lynched regardless.

Eh...I was pretty sure Ren was going to be lynched yesterday. I think the only thing that prevented it was Adel's speedlynch on FL; if it wasn't for then, I think Ren would almost certanly have gotten lynched yesterday.

[Yosarian2]

If it was obvious that you/Goat were going to get bulletproof, why did it matter who took it? As long as your group had it, you were both protected.

Well, I was a little concerned since the scum are apparently prone to taking high-risk kill attempts, like trying to kill you day 1 even though there was a high chance you were going to be bus driven. That made me unsure about trying to play this kind of WIFOM game with the scum group; based on that, it wouldn't have surprised me if they'd said "fuck it, let's just try to kill the confirmed innocent and see what happens."

[Yosarian2]

You are still assuming that somehow contradicting yourself or changing your mind is inherently scummy, which I completly disagree with.

If Person X thinks person Y is town, then they re-think things, or something dosn't sit right, or they have a gut feeling, or whatever, and they change their mind and vote person Y, that's not a scum tell at all. Town should do that.

No. The stuff earlier regarding my own change of mind should have indicated that that isn't my view.

Stated simply, my opinion is:

Scum are more likely than town to change their mind without good reason for doing so.

I don't think that's at all true; scum tend to be resistant to doing that, because people always get attacked for it, while town should be willing to change their mind as unpredictably as possible.

Why do you think that scum are more willing to change their minds?

It isn't scummy to change your mind. It is scummy if there is no clear pathway of reasoning that would lead to that change of mind.

You keep saying this, but why? I think it's a pro-town way to act (that is, a way to act that helps the town; the opposite of anti-town.)

It's a very long bow to draw to say that Adel going weird and suddenly changing her mind without any explanation is pro-town because people's reactions will be meaningful. By that sort of definition, virtually any action can be construed as pro-town.

Well, no; actions are pro-town they help the town. If changing your mind suddenly dosn't at all hurt the town (and it dosn't), and if doing like that gets reactions that give the town tons of information, then it is pro-town.

[Yosarian2]

Well, no; actions are pro-town they help the town. If changing your mind suddenly dosn't at all hurt the town (and it dosn't), and if doing like that gets reactions that give the town tons of information, then it is pro-town.

The end result of Adel's action may have had pro-town consequences, but that doesn't mean it was a pro-town action. What matters is Adel's reasoning for doing the action. Your argument is "It generated tons of good information and discussion, thus it was pro-town, thus the person who did it is pro-town." That's a faulty conclusion. What matters is "Did Adel do this for a pro-town purpose?"
You are attributing motives to Adel that we have no way of knowing, and that seem frankly unlikely, in order to call him pro-town.

Actually, no, I'm not assuming motives at all. I'm just observing that Adel's action were pro-town, that is, they were much more helpful to the town then harmful. Motives are obviously unknowable at this point, especally with Adel gone, although based on his posts I don't think he had anti-town motives either.

It's far more likely that he voted SensFan out of frustration at Sens or because he wanted to go for the other wagon as he's going down, whatever, than that he had some sort of plan in the midst of his rage to generate information for the town.

Perhaps. But Volkan and others were claiming that changing your mind like this is somehow inherently scummy, wheras I tend to think it's inherently pro-town, it's something pro-town people should do.

[Yosarian2]

I believe Ren is as good as confirmed town. This is not a result of extremely good luck on Ren's part, it was bad luck / bad choices by the scum. One attempted nightkill pretty much confirmed three players (scot, goat, ren) as town. Thats why Adel/Michel and Yos have been trying so hard to unconfirm anyone that they can from that group - as a team, they screwed up big time.

There is so much wrong in that statement, I don't know where to start.

I guess I'll just point out that your entire theory seems to be based on the assumption that both me and Adel are complete gibbering idiots who don't know how to play mafia, and leave it at that.

[Yosarian2]

I believe Ren is as good as confirmed town. This is not a result of extremely good luck on Ren's part, it was bad luck / bad choices by the scum. One attempted nightkill pretty much confirmed three players (scot, goat, ren) as town. Thats why Adel/Michel and Yos have been trying so hard to unconfirm anyone that they can from that group - as a team, they screwed up big time.

There is so much wrong in that statement, I don't know where to start.

I guess I'll just point out that your entire theory seems to be based on the assumption that both me and Adel are complete gibbering idiots who don't know how to play mafia, and leave it at that.

Are you really suggesting that the mafia's kill choice was made by gibbering idiots?

That depends what the mafia's motive for the kill was. If all the assumptions OMGL are making are correct, though, then they would pretty much have to be. He's assuming that the mafia sent in the kill to Scot after you were at lynch -1. He's then assuming they they did this intentionally hoping to kill Scot and get you lynched, apparently assuming the bus driver wouldn't target scot. He's assuming that me and Adel, specifically, did this, and that we apparently just forgot about the bus driver or just assumed he wouldn't target scot, even though the bus driver was Adel's plan to begin with, and even though I knew that my partner Goat was the bus driver. And then he's assuming that me and Adel, somehow surprised by the outcome of all this, then decided to go after you as some kind of desperate damage control, despite how incredibly obvious that would be.

That would make us gibbering idiots, yes.

If the answer is yes, I have a follow up question:

If the mafia is a team of gibbering idiots, doesn't that completely blow MSH's pseudomathematical calculations right out of the water in one spectacularly wet blast?

Meh. I don't really think MSH's argument that the kill implies you're scum make sense. The fact that you might have been lynched if things had gone differently either means that the scum didn't mind if you got lynched, or that they were willing to take the risk, or that they didn't realize what might happen. The net result of those three possibilities lowers your chances of being scum somewhat, enough so I haven't been voting for you today; I don't think you're confirmed, but I also don't think the argument that you're somehow scum because of the kill attempt is correct either.

[Yosarian2]

It's not a question of whether or not it helps the town in an objective sense; it's a matter of what it says about how a person is thinking subjectively.

Taking the Budja thing as an example: He made a convincing point which should have precluded any suspicion of FL. In short,

At time

1

, Budja held the view that

FL was not scummy

because

town could fail to join the dots

At time

2

, Budja held the view that

FL was scummy because

[unspecified]

Unless the reason "town could fail to join the dots" was either refuted or outweighed, there was simply no basis upon which town-Budja could shift his position like that. If he genuinely thought as town that town-FL could have failed to join the dots, I can't fathom a situation where he would simply backflip without a damned good reason for doing so.

You can't? Because I see it happen all the time where town person A thinks person B is town, then they suddenly get paranoid, or have a sudden flash of insight, or something, change their minds, and decide they were wrong and that person B is scum.

There are a million different reasons for that. It can be something as simple as re-evaluating different town and scum tells the person has made and deciding that they put too much weight on one and not enough weight on the other. In this case, it sounds like Adel finally decided Sens was intentionally lurking, in all 3 threads, and that that, along with behaviors of his that were frustrating Adel earlier, tipped the balance and made him scum, which is perfectly rational.

Well, no; actions are pro-town they help the town. If changing your mind suddenly dosn't at all hurt the town (and it dosn't), and if doing like that gets reactions that give the town tons of information, then it is pro-town.

The immediate consequences of Adel's backflip have been pretty mundane.
However, the consequence of town accepting as legitimate that people can suddenly backflip would be a massive boon to scum.

No, that's the thing, it dosn't. People suddenly backfliping is a huge problem for scum, and therefore a massive boon to the town.

I came to this conclusion years ago, when playing a game with Baby Jesus when I was scum and he was town. I kept thinking I had him "on my side", then he kept suddenly turning on me and going after me. It was incredibly nerve-wracking as scum, and it's both very, very effective scumhunting, because of the kinds of reactions you get, and makes it much harder for scum to manipulate the town. In a lot of ways, it was his unpredictability that made him such an effective scumhunter, and after seeing that I changed my mind and decided that town should not strive for consistancy at all.

[Yosarian2]

There's not a lot to pin on someone who hasn't given a lot to evaluate.

Call me paranoid, but I always fear that a lack of information for us to pin someone is usually by design.

(nods)

He's not my first choice, but I'd be willing to go along with a Sens lynch today if neccesary mostly just because he really hasn't given us any compelling reason to think he's town.

[Yosarian2]

But he did show a misunderstanding about game mechanics in that post. Talked about him not dying because of counting wrong although he didn't; apparently misunderstood the relevance of who the dying person is voting for.

True.

It's worth mentioning that I think it's quite possible that the scum didn't realize what the effects of a kill on the lynch might be at all. I don't believe anyone mentioned it in thread at all until after the kill happened, and then several people got it wrong.

[Yosarian2]

@ Yos, you said that we went from everyone thinking Adel is town, to everyone thinking he is scum. That's just wrong. I not once considered adel town. While his plan was quite helpful, I was never convinced that he was town.

(nods) Yeah, you mentioned that, and I don't have a problem with you keeping some of your cards close to your chest as far as your own suspicions lie, becuase it may make it harder for scum to guess who you will be giving power roles to. Especally since you're nearly confirmed now, that's probably a smart way for you to play.

I will say that, in thread, it seemed like Adel was the person most trusted by the town in general for much of the game, then suddenly he became one of the top suspects, and I don't really understand why.

I kind of see what you mean about Adel laying back on day 1, but it seemed more like an information gathering stratagy then anything with anti-town motives to me.

[Yosarian2]

Well, I'm not buying OGML's argument that there "must not be scum in the accounting group because the scum don't know what's going on here", especally since that seems to be based on him assuming I'm scum, hah.

Anyway, CKD's whole argument there that started the case on Adel seemed to be about the FL quicklynch, right? Mmm....I donno, it made sense to me at the time, and I'm having trouble seeing that as a scum gabit on Adel's part.

I also don't see any sign of this "case" against me that Ren hid behind when he was trying to defend his logic-less attack on me:

And concerning yourself, Yosarian, the case has been made by others, mostly in the QT, and you're in for a treat when it becomes public.

Care to explain yourself, Ren? Was there some other part of the quicktopic you haven't posted yet, or were you lying about that?

Also, if he was lying, I'm really disturbued that other people in the quicktopic didn't call him out on it either here or in thread, especally CKD.

[Yosarian2]

Eh...I wasn't nervous, I was trying to get you to actually say what you thought rather then hide behind and argument someone else made somewhere else. I'd always rather pick a fight in thread and get some information out of it then just sit back and take potshots from the sidelines.

In any case, I'm really wondering why no one else pointed out your statement was basically untrue. Especally CKD, who's been quite active both in this thread and that one since then. Especally considering my earlier concerns that if you are town he may have been trying to buddy up to you, I find that problematic. CKD?

[Yosarian2]

Since you've been thinking I'm scum for the better part of the game, I'm a little more than surprised to learn that you see me as a townie that scum buddies up to. You'd have to be pretty sure I'm town to make that assertion. It's all very unsettling.

The problem is, I can think of two good reason he might do that as scum; either you're his scumbuddy and he dosn't want to draw attention to you, or you're town and he's trying to buddy up to you. I can't think of any reason he would do that as town.

Anyway, I've been accusing him for quite a while of being a scum who was trying to buddy up to OGML and, if you are town, to you. I've been pretty clear about that...

[Yosarian2]

It wasn't an error. I think that someone pushing the Adel wagon is almost certanly scum. And I think the most likely scenerio right now is that CKD is scum, and that you and OGML are both town, and that he's buddying up to and using the two of you.

It's certanly possible I'm wrong about that; you could be scum and he could be town, or you could both be scum together (although that would be pretty blatent, with the way he's been openly working with you all day, and I never really thought it was all that likely.) But, no, it wasn't an accident or an error that I accused him of being scum buddying up to you; I really think that's the most likely scenerio at this time, and I have for most of the day; i actually thought that was pretty clear in my posts, both in thread and in my conversation with goat that was posted.

[Yosarian2]

So now you don't think I'm so scum because you think CKD is more scum and buddying up to me?

Actually, for most of the day, I've considered the chances of you being scum significnalty lower then I did yesterday, partly because of the attempt to kill scot while you were at lynch -1. I believe I've said more then once today that I wouldn't be willing to lynch you today.

[Yosarian2]

Yos
I don't have much aside from uncertainty on him. I have a vague, mildly scummy feeling from him but nothing I can really pin down.
His early day 1 contributions seemed somewhat absentminded, because he was bringing up things that seemed like he hadn't thought Adel's plan through before talking (like suggesting making PGO public).

Eh? What was wrong with that suggestion? If we had done that, we might have had the scum get re-directed into the PGO when the scum tried to kill scot on day 1.

I disagree with him about a bunch of things, some of the opinions around his Adel stance make me uneasy (like stating that Adel's f u Sens vote was probably a measured, reasonable action).

I don't know if it was measured or thought through. It was a reasonable vote, though, and it made sense to me.

That's bad logic, CKD. IF you think Sensfan is town (and it sounds like you do, from the rest of your post), then Adel defending him has to be considered a pro-town act. Now, if Sensfan is scum, then Adel defending sensfan is definatly a big point against him. But I hate the "X defended Y, and Y was town, so X must have been scum!" argument you seem to be going for here. If a pro-town town person thinks someone else is town, they bloody well should defend them.

I thought this was simplistic from Yos. Defending someone pro-town is good for town, but there's also a scum motive for towncred there. Everything is based on nuances and honest seeming thought processes.

Well, obviously. But people get so caught up in WIFOM thinking they forget the obvious. The truth is, if someone votes scum, that's a pro-town tell, and if someone defends town, that's also a pro-town tell.

I think CKD's thoughts about Sensfan, and CKD's thoughts about what Adel said about Senfan, basically contradicted each other there in that post.

@ Yos: why doesn't Adel's quicklynch on FL seem like a scum gambit to you? Does the action seem townish or null to you?

Eh. I doubt it'd be a scum gambit. Adel was in a very strong position at that point; basically everyone thought he was town. To risk that all, just to try to speedlynch one town player on day 1, and the one with the most usless role in the game?

I'd say it seems null to me. Adel had what seemed like good reasons for it.

Honestly, if you think someone is likely to be a scum with a day action, speedlynching them when they're not on before they get a chance to use it is probably the correct move; I've attempted that with people I thought were scum daykillers in the past, for example.

[Yosarian2]

How can you claim Adel's plan is a big townish point for him if you still haven't thought it true?

Um, no. Adel's plan was a better pro-town plan then any that had been suggested up to that point.

The fact that I then took that and brainstormed some other options is irrelevent to the fact that Adel's plan was quite reasonable at the time.

PGO identified fails to protect creative teams, fails to protect tracker partner. Scum would never have tried to kill scot if PGO was public but Adel's plan made sure it was futile too.

Well, no, because under my plan, the bus driver could also have protected both Scot and the tracker. But that's not really important now anyway.

I don't really get what you're arguing, anyway. People were attacking Adel on the grounds that all the game-theory-stuff he was doing early day 1 were scummy, and that's just bunk; it was quite pro-town.

I don't know if it was measured or thought through. It was a reasonable vote, though, and it made sense to me.

Did also Adel's previous stance of Sens-town make sense to you?

I don't fully understand it, no.

Well, obviously. But people get so caught up in WIFOM thinking they forget the obvious. The truth is, if someone votes scum, that's a pro-town tell, and if someone defends town, that's also a pro-town tell.

Without looking somewhat more thoroughly at the manner of those actions they are crude beyond use as tells imo.

I don't think that's true. I think, on some level, if someone acts in a way that increses the chance of a town win, it raises their odds of being town, at least a little, and if someone acts in a way that increases the chances of a scum win, it increases their chances of being scum, at least a little. "Tells" isn't really a word I would use for that, but it's true nonetheless.

You have to actually look at the effect of people's actions, not just guess at their motives.

[Yosarian2]

The irony of Sens being the most recent post in the MD thread Lurking's Not a Scumtell is not lost on me.

Also, yes. Sensfan needs to stop lurking and get in here and post some content, or we will lynch him.

I agree with previous statements made regarding Sens-Yos making good sense.

Excuse me? How is that, exactly?

[Yosarian2]

Plus busdriver scum is really bad.

That much is likely true, which, as I said at the time, why I ended up dropping my plan in favor of Adel's.

Other then that risk, though, I don't think my plan was nearly a bad as you seem to be assuming. We'll let that go, though.

Or when someone doesn't make sense in why they strongly defend another player, like this:

Did also Adel's previous stance of Sens-town make sense to you?

I don't fully understand it, no.

MSH, however, is increasingly giving me kinda honest vibes.

The thing is, if someone says "I have a meta that X usually acts like this as town", I don't necessarally expect to fully understand it; I take note of it, and reference it later once I know X's alignment.

Anyway, this discussion is becoming pointless.

I wasn't crazy about OMGL's vote on Sens.

Why?

Sens looked scummy and unhelpful on day 1, and he currently seems to be lurking delibratly in this thread. I don't have a problem with that vote. If Sens dosn't come back in here and start contibuting some real content soon, I'd be willing to hammer him myself if needed.

[Yosarian2]

I, for one, am basically waiting to hear some real content from CKD before we end the day, and especally to hear what CKD thinks about Sens at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

Shouldn't Goatrevolt reveal the scumbag BEFORE we end today's vote and the scum becomes able to send the kill???????????????????

That's a really good point, actually. We don't want to risk that information being lost by a scum kill.

Also, whoever the vig is is (either goat or Budja, I guess, depending onj how this goes) going to want to get the kill in basically instantly as soon as we end the first part of the day, to prevent the vig from being killed before he gets his kill off. There's apparently a "0-24 hour" delay before the kill goes through, so, so long as the vig sends the kill in immedeatly after the morning session is over, there should be almost no risk of the kill being preempted that way.

[Yosarian2]

Also, whoever the vig is is (either goat or Budja, I guess, depending onj how this goes) going to want to get the kill in basically instantly as soon as we end the first part of the day, to prevent the vig from being killed before he gets his kill off. There's apparently a "0-24 hour" delay before the kill goes through, so, so long as the vig sends the kill in immedeatly after the morning session is over, there should be almost no risk of the kill being preempted that way.

This won't be a problem Yos. Actions submitted during the morning phase of working hours are resolved simultaneously.

Ah, good to know.

[Yosarian2]

I am missing this, what was the untrue statement(963)?

Ren claimed there was a major case made against me in the advertising thread, and used that as a reason to attack me without ever actually explaining what it was. Once the advertising thread was posted, it was clear that that wasn't actually true at all, and he admitted he basically streached the truth there to try to get a reaction out of me, or something like that. I'm wondering, why didn't question him about that statement, either here in thread or in the advertising thread?

[quoet]

I, for one, am basically waiting to hear some real content from CKD before we end the day, and especally to hear what CKD thinks about Sens at the moment.

strange comment...you didnt know my opinion of Sens yesterday? How so? I basically thought he was town...however, toward the end of the day, his lurking started to put him back on my radar because I had a feeling that Adel's comment about him not being invested in the game gave him a free pass to lurk (yeah, I know he didnt say lurk, but can you trace when Sens started lurking heavier?) At any rate, he flipped town. [/quote]

(shrug) You'd been lurking for about a week, during which time the wagon on sensfan gathered steam and grew a great deal. I wanted to wait to hear your last words on Sensfan before we lynched him; it could have been quite informative, depending on what you said and how Sensfan flipped, and you had promised to post content on Sunday (it was Saturday when I made that post). So, yeah; I wanted to see if you'd come in and defend him when he was at lynch -1, or if you'd change your mind and attack him, or if you'd ignore the whole thing. Any one of those could have told me a lot about you. Sadly, the day ended before that happened.

[Yosarian2]

All this talk about lynching either or MSH now seems a little disturbing, One of us is going to be the cop, and we obviously aren't going to reveal who that is at least until after the scumkill. And, of course, on the other hand, we don't want to create a situation where the cop might get lynched.

Also...don't any of you care who the caught scum and in actually using that information to find the real scum?

[Yosarian2]

Yos, regardless of who gets the cop, he gets the result instantly.

No, scot.

Cop Ability wrote:
During Working Hours one of you may target a player; at the end of the day, you will receive a result of "Guilty" or "Not Guilty", depending on alignment.

Cop dosn't get results until the end of the day. IE: not until after we lynch someone. That's the problem.

[Yosarian2]

Sounds a bit blackmaily.

No, Ren, I'm trying to ensure that a cop lives long enough so that the town can get results. How is that "blackmaily"?

[Yosarian2]

Immediate actions:

alignment investigate (result),

kill--within 0-24 hours if public
rest of day actions: protect, roleblock, track, watch, plant evidence (Framer and Undertaker), busdrive--exact time stamps
end of day actions: track (result), watch (result)--after lynch scene

Korts, we need a clarification.

Hmm...interesting, Scot. Ok, I see where you're coming from now; I was going on the cop role in the morning thing.

I guess we'll wait for a mod response then.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian, who is the scum?

CKD, for sure, and probably a few of the quieter people in the game.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian, who is the scum?

CKD, for sure, and probably a few of the quieter people in the game.

Name the two others, please.

Most likely, the other two are two of (vollkan, Ojanen, Budja). You are also possible, although less likely then the three of them. Everyone else seems town-ish to me at the moment.

[Yosarian2]

Really, Ojanen? Really.

Please post a case against Ojanen. And it better be a good one.

I got those names just by process of elimination, ren.

This is the list of players:

vollkan - Head of Account Services
Ojanen crywolf20084 - Account Executive
Ren Hoek - Account Executive
OhGodMyLife Nuwen - Account Executive
curiouskarmadog - Account Executive
scotmany12 - Creative Director
MichelSableheart Adel - Copywriter
Goatrevolt - Copywriter
Budja - Art Director
Yosarian2 -Art Director

Out of that list, Goat and Scot are confirmed town, and I have pretty sure strong reasons to think OGML and Mike are town.

From my point of view, that only leaves

vollkan - Head of Account Services
Ojanen crywolf20084 - Account Executive
Ren Hoek - Account Executive
curiouskarmadog - Account Executive
Budja - Art Director

Out of that list, I am sure CKD is scum. So the other scum must be in the group of (Volkan, CKD, Brujah, Ren Hoek, Ojanen .) And I have more of a reason to think you're town then anyone else on that list, so my guess would be that the remaining scum are contained within the group of (Volkan, Brujah, Ojaen).

[Yosarian2]

I want to point out that you're not pushing really hard against the players you claim to have pinned out as scum. If at all.

I haven't been pushing hard against CKD? What game are you reading?

CKD is the one I'm the most confident about. We should have lynched him yesterday.

[Yosarian2]

Your pushing against CKD feels a bit OMGUS-y.

How? CKD wasn't attacking me when I started attacking him.

Ojanen: I guess I'm having a little trouble explaining this. Take a step back, and look at the whole game, not just individual players. Consider how the bandwagons have moved, consider how players have joined different factions, consider how it is all going. Also consider that we haven't lynched scum yet, despite having lots of good information (2 confirmed innocents, for one), and that the main thrust for today again seems to be towords mike and me, two players I think are obviosuly pro-town.

When I examime the whole game, when I FEEL the game as a whole, I can tell that the town is being manipulated by scum. Specfically, that faction I was talking about, the accounting faction,, led by OGML, Ren, and CKD, is leading the town and consistnatly pushing in anti-town directions, and I doubt it's a coincidence. I am sure that there is scum there, and I'm almost sure it's CKD.

[Yosarian2]

I'm interested in your theory that we're being manipulated by scum.

For instance, yesterday, MSH hammered the scummalurking SensFan.

The voters were:
(6) Budja, Goatrevolt, Ojanen, Ren Hoek, OhGodMyLife, MSH

CKD isn't even on the list and vollkan was too scaredy to vote.

No, CKD wasn't on that wagon, he was trying to set up a mislynch of MSH today instead.

[Yosarian2]

No, CKD wasn't on that wagon, he was trying to set up a mislynch of MSH today instead.

How do you know it would be a mislynch?

Because mike is obvtown.

Haven't we already been through this?

[Yosarian2]

I understand your viewpoint. I've been thinking and wondering about factions and group dynamics as a whole myself and a few things puzzle me. The point where we don't meet at all is thinking you and MSH obvtown (actually, I think you and Michel are quite alone of that opinion). Are the "anti-town directions" you refer to suspicion of you and Michel?

Actually, the big thing was the whole "either Sens of Michael must be scum" thing yesterday with no good reason for that false dicotamy; and now it seems like "Ok, sens was town, so therefore michale must be scum", still while giving no reason why that must be true.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, stop referring to obvscum ad obvtown. It's upsetting. Adel was scummy.

Adel was not scummy. Everything Adel did makes perfect sense from a "Adel is pro-town" point of view, and really much less sense from a "Adel is scummy" point of view. I can't see Adel-scum acting like that, at all.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, I was the one who said that.

You were hardly the only one who said it, scot. Quite a few other people did as well.

And, no, I don't think you're scum, scot; i just said that you're confirmed town.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, stop referring to obvscum ad obvtown. It's upsetting. Adel was scummy.

Adel was not scummy. Everything Adel did makes perfect sense from a "Adel is pro-town" point of view, and really much less sense from a "Adel is scummy" point of view. I can't see Adel-scum acting like that, at all.

Nothing but his actions in the very beginning of the game make sense from a protown point-of-view. The FL lynch is horrible if people actually dig deeper into it. Had FL been scum, he would have switched me out before he was lynched.

Perhaps, except Adel intentionally ran him up during a time she knew FL was unlikely to be online, something he apparently took the time to figure out, and the hammer happened before FL did get back to the thread. So, actually, he couldn't have, and if FL had been scum Adel's plan would have worked perfectly.

I can't see Adel doing that as scum, way too high-risk and much too low of a payoff. The only explination I ever hear for why Adel would have done that as scum was "Adel was trying to prevent his buddy sensfan from being lynched that day", which we now know was false anyway.

Now, as it actually turns out, it's a shame FL didn't get back in time; if FL had posted and had not switched the role, it actually may have cleared him as town, depending on exactally how it happend.

His defense on Sens was ridiculous, and had no bases.

Eh. He defended Sensfan on some meta read that I don't fully understand. As it turns out, he was right. I can't imagine how that could possibly be a point against Adel.

Him not voicing his opinions makes absolutely no sense. Him calling me scum for attacking Sens made no sense, despite you Yos also did it, as well as CKD. Him actually ignoring me responding to his "points" against me makes no sense for a protown player. His vote on Sens definitely made no sense. He was pushing that sens play here is consistent with his protown meta. That doesn't just change Yos.

Eh. We've been through all of this. Him changing his mind on sensfan in response to lurking makes perfet sense to me.

And then there is MSH, who's attack on Ren was based on a theory full of baseless assumptions, and his hammer on Sens when there was possible that discussion might have picked up.

I really get the feeling that your response to MSH's argument was some kind of gut "he's using math, math is bad" response on your part, which I don't at all agree with.

As for "discussion might have picked up"; I wish he had waited until Sunday, when CKD had promised to post; in fact, I had specfically suggested in thread that I'd like to hear from CKD first. However, I don't see any reason to expect we were ever going to get anything out of sensfan yesterday no matter how long we waited, to be honest.

[Yosarian2]

Day 1, sens wasn't saying much, but he was at least playing the game, both in here and in Adel's thread with him apparently.

It seemed like Adel's meta on him invovled some of the sloppy play he was doing day 1, some of the mistakes he made, that Adel thought he wouldn't do as scum but would do as town, or something like that. I'm don't entirly understand it myself.

But then his play did change. As soon as he wasn't under pressure anymore, he vanished, stopped posting in thread and apparently stopped posting in the quicktopic thread. Note that the pressure against him largely went away because of Adel's defense, and you can really see why Adel would suddenly regret the defense, decide that he was wrong all along, and say "screw this, if this is what he's going to do when I stick out my neck to defend him, then fuck it, let's lynch him."

It seems like a perfectly understandable reaction to me; and, honestly, not an anti-town one either; town should get mad when people do that and start to lurk like that.

[Yosarian2]

If Yos wants to go ahead and assume Michel will be lynched and take the cop ability, thats just fine by me.

OGML, do you actually realize not how bad it is to be fishing for the cop role like this before the scum get to make their kill, in a situation where if the scum do kill the cop the town gets no investigation?

[Yosarian2]

Ebwop: "realize not" should be "not realize"

[Yosarian2]

OGML, you need to wait until after the scum kill before this discussion goes any farther. After the scum kill has hapened, if you really want to discuss lynching whichever one of me/michael is not the cop then, then we'll talk about it then. Until then, stop cop fishing.

[Yosarian2]

Lol @ the wiki war.

Anyway, not surprised to see Volkan get caught here. Good job, goat.

[Yosarian2]

Goat: Why are you assuming that either me or michel must be scum?

[Yosarian2]

Nonetheless, the point of "the other members of the scumteam must be more suspicious than Voll" still stands, and that still equal Yos/Michel.

It's not just a matter of "more suspicious." The question is, who is more likely to be tracked then Voll, assuming the scum figured out (like everyone else did) that the me/goat group was likely to get the tracker role.

In other words, what we're looking for is two members of the scum team that either I, Goat, or both had expressed more suspicion on then we had expressed on Volken at some point before the kill yesterday.

[Yosarian2]

Thanks, ren. Yeah, the game was a lot of fun.

Korts: I don't think the game was unbalanced. It could quite easily have gone the other way.

The mechanism of role distribution could have gone either way. In this game, the scum were basically able to take control of it in broad daylight, but that was a very high risk option on our part.

[Yosarian2]

I've reread page 30 many times, the immediate pages leading up to page 30 several times, and the entire game up to that point a few times.
Each time it leaves me very frustrated.

I won't be playing mafia again any time soon.

I'm sorry to hear that, Adel.