Phables: Death Note Mafia (Game Over)

[LlamaFluff]

OK, kai and Mastin (stop with posting that way, I stopped reading them, so you won't get me convinced or something) seem town on page 4. Magnus is looking like active, but antitown scum, looking for a good place for his vote.

vote Magnus

I can also see the case against Lamont, and the way (ad hom) he reacted after that makes him even more scummy, but I don't know how he plays, so could he be town that messes up?

Nice taking a stance and backing it up early. So MO is scum, and LM is scum. Why did you chose one over the other? This just more seems like a way to be able to easily transition to whoever you feel like.

he claimed third party, yes, I call that different. We agree on that. I'm still thinking what it means.

Well if he were scum, claiming to have a neutral role MIGHT earn him some credit right off the bat, obviously people didnt like it (Kairyuu seems to have for some uknown reason). Doing it early lets him jump on the 'I claimed before I was forced to so its less likely to be a lie' excuse.

If hes telling the truth, he really shoud've waited >_>

Lets get this straight: death gods don't seem the good guys to me. I don't think scum would claim them, this early. It just doesn't happen often. Third party, with some different wincon, is also not town.

I'm still trying to understand why he claimed.

So you not only believe he claimed some thirdparty/neutral role, but voted someone else because you cant understand why the anti-town but not scum role claimed?

Vote myk

[LlamaFluff]

OK, kai and Mastin (stop with posting that way, I stopped reading them, so you won't get me convinced or something) seem town on page 4. Magnus is looking like active, but antitown scum, looking for a good place for his vote.

vote Magnus

I can also see the case against Lamont, and the way (ad hom) he reacted after that makes him even more scummy, but I don't know how he plays, so could he be town that messes up?

Nice taking a stance and backing it up early. So MO is scum, and LM is scum. Why did you chose one over the other? This just more seems like a way to be able to easily transition to whoever you feel like.

well read. One reason why I didn't continue it at all. But before people think I haven't read it, and lurk, I commented on it, and then continued doing more important things. Some people seem to consider not voting in your first posts a scumtell. So basically, it doesn't say a thing, and it is an incredibly weak post from me. It only somewhat tells who I believe more likely to be town, and who seem more scummy. But with the activity of some players, I can't say a thing about the game, and that is exactly what you are attacking me on.

Wait so your response to my arguement is that I am correct? Im kind of confused here. Did you also just vote because people think not voting constitutes as a scumtell? Thanks for answering how you distinguished between who is scummier though.

Myk was already being attacked by Llama with some valid points which I'm not sure Myk answered.

myk defended that he didn't make a strong post at that time, and also didn't have strong feelings, something Llama thought a scumtell. Myk doubts it is, as it was one of his first posts, and it was on page five, with a lot of people not posting. The post should be read as a first conclusion on the read, that won't really affect myk's coming play.

If you are going to defend that with "oh it was page five", well just wow. You cant say you didnt have strong feelings if you voted, and if you called two people scum. The fact that you are now trying to post of what was something that sure seemed serious as inconclusive due to not finishing you read, just makes me happier with my vote.

In fact, I could just as easily unvote now, because magnus has not been extraordinarily scummy in the pages afterward. But I absolutely don't see the use of that (it could be argued that my vote is also useless), and it would be a good idea to wait with doing anything till the sun again comes up.

So you have no reads at this point? Why is MO town now? What happened to LC? What about everyone else?

1. Ctrl-F tells me that "myk", or "mykonian" was only used in your vote. As I am now, with reading I could have missed it, but I don't think you made a point against me.

The 'find' function does not answer all. I say in that post that I think it would be easy for scum to slip on the wagons of the three players I mention. You are on one of those wagons. And I will start with you.

ah, ok. Well, I can't defend that I'm on one of them. But, esspecially as I have already mentioned twice that this vote isn't going to be there when I finally find a good place for it, I think you are a bit too worried about magnus.

So why are you leaving your vote on him then if you dont think he is scum? I never understand why people try and do stuff like that.

[LlamaFluff]

Why are people actually thinking that Mastin got modkilled? Why the hell would it not show as a modkill first of all, second, given any reason why he was modkilled, third game still be in day.

Getting caught up now.

[LlamaFluff]

Skimish read still makes me like a myk lynch compared to a kise one.

Vote Myk

Now you know about what I think, and I think the most important person, because of the claim, should be Mastin, but, while my vote on Magnus doesn't hurt, and could only be used to pressure Magnus by someone else, a vote on Mastin should be used more careful, I think, as it is later in the game, and should be a serious, and well reasoned vote. But if it makes you happy, I could

unvote

. Do you have any questions about what I think?

Not really making me too happy because you arent telling me who is scum. Just who isnt scum. Also I tend to get a little bit of the willies when you call me town right after I call you scum. What was your read on Mastin though, it looks like you passively support his wagon or something like that

Apart from this, myk has mostly been arguing either semantics and obvious things (such as the vig is pro-town). He has been doing a good job of appearing to add a lot to the conversation, while really not having done much.

[LlamaFluff]

You guys really need to post less. You put up something like six pages while im at work, and I usually am in the field so I cant even sneak in a post untill I get back to the office and am inputting data. Enough of my little bitching about the game too fast though.

For zwet, I believe his claim. Ive been half-watching the anime over again since I signed up for this, and it makes a lot of sense sans-lover part of the role. IIRC, the wife started hunting for kira after Mastin died.

Other stuff since im a little short on time now: I still like my myk vote quite a bit at this point. Zazie, zee and philly are giving me town reads early on.

[LlamaFluff]

More stuff on myk

He assumes in a post that Mastin is town, before that was known, and attacks players from that position. When questioned, he claims that that rule makes that Mastin must be town, because he isn't modkilled. Kise seems to be one of very few people (1, as I count) that misunderstood that rule that way. It is just a weak excuse for his mistake.

I quite often call people town and play to my read. I will defend them, call them town, and base theories on other players alignments from what I have descerned. Acting like you know someone is town isnt a bad thing.

I thought exactly the same as myk when I saw Mastin's claim. A shinigami with a death-note would be very foolish to claim.

Why would a Shinigami with a deathnote be very foolish to claim, Budja?

scumslip. Really, it won't get more obvious.

unvote vote Spolium

Why is this a slip? (clarifiaction purposes, because if I think correctly what you mean, it's not)

It doesn't seem to me that he understands that we have to destroy deathnotes, and if he was town, he would know that was his wincondition.

Well you are missing the fact that shin are THIRD PARTY. And you know know what you should do to third party? You lynch third party. You can never count on them playing to your win condition since they do not share it. They may play with town in an attempt to not be lynched, but if they have a win chance by working with scum do you really think they arent going to take it?

May I see how I voted for Kise, based on a reasoning where I was included? I thought we voted Kise because he thought Mastin town, while I thought a long time Mastin was shinigami without a deathnote.

So I should vote you for this then right? For not voting the player you thought was third party, and had a note. You even have acknowlegded that we should lynch shin with note.

----

Ok do you guys seriously have no school or job? Playing this fast is actually detremental to the town since so few people really know what is going on well. Im not saying stop posting, but maybe three or four pages a day top.

[LlamaFluff]

Short reply but im at the office and have a meeting in about ten minutes

Well you are missing the fact that shin are THIRD PARTY. And you know know what you should do to third party? You lynch third party. You can never count on them playing to your win condition since they do not share it. They may play with town in an attempt to not be lynched, but if they have a win chance by working with scum do you really think they arent going to take it?

We slightly disagree here. If we can find out someone doesn't have a deathnote, we have a bigger chance with the rest to find someone who does. And because shinigami can't be killed/lynched, wasting a lynch on one without a deathnote is not such a smart play.

Are you just going to ask them and hope they tell you the truth? Look at the rules, shin lose a note they would have if they are lynched. That is why we lynch them, hopefully destroy the note (remember town win con?), and move on with our lives.

May I see how I voted for Kise, based on a reasoning where I was included? I thought we voted Kise because he thought Mastin town, while I thought a long time Mastin was shinigami without a deathnote.

So I should vote you for this then right? For not voting the player you thought was third party, and had a note. You even have acknowlegded that we should lynch shin with note.

I think you missed the word "without". I thought mastin would never have claimed in case he had a note.

How could you tell that a shin doesnt have a note? Did you just believe that part of the claim?

[LlamaFluff]

Short reply but im at the office and have a meeting in about ten minutes

Well you are missing the fact that shin are THIRD PARTY. And you know know what you should do to third party? You lynch third party. You can never count on them playing to your win condition since they do not share it. They may play with town in an attempt to not be lynched, but if they have a win chance by working with scum do you really think they arent going to take it?

We slightly disagree here. If we can find out someone doesn't have a deathnote, we have a bigger chance with the rest to find someone who does. And because shinigami can't be killed/lynched, wasting a lynch on one without a deathnote is not such a smart play.

Are you just going to ask them and hope they tell you the truth? Look at the rules, shin lose a note they would have if they are lynched. That is why we lynch them, hopefully destroy the note (remember town win con?), and move on with our lives.

and Mastin knew this, but still claimed shinigami. Now, if you saw someone you considered clever, claiming scum, wouldn't you think there was something more?

First off, any tell that doesnt apply when someone has reached a certain skill level (which in itself is somewhat arbitrary) is a pretty shitty tell. That aside though, you said you belived his claim. So you DID believe he was third party, but believed he was tricking you?

May I see how I voted for Kise, based on a reasoning where I was included? I thought we voted Kise because he thought Mastin town, while I thought a long time Mastin was shinigami without a deathnote.

So I should vote you for this then right? For not voting the player you thought was third party, and had a note. You even have acknowlegded that we should lynch shin with note.

I think you missed the word "without". I thought mastin would never have claimed in case he had a note.

How could you tell that a shin doesnt have a note? Did you just believe that part of the claim?

as far as I know, he didn't claim that, until I directly asked him. I thought that most likely, seen that he claimed. I thought a lynch couldn't harm him, because otherwise he wouldn't have made such a play.

READ THE RULES. If a shin with a note is lynched or otherwise would die, they lose any note they have. A lynch would not harm them, but it would move the town towards their win condition if they got the note, and presumeably detract from a third party win condition. So yeah, lynch third party.

----

I know I am behind a bit, so if anyone has any specific points or questions for me, please ask. This game moves too fast, im kind of happy that Mastin isnt fueling the fire into an inferno anymore.

[LlamaFluff]

Im starting to strattle the sanity line here and go into pissy mode. I really dont like being in pissy mode too much since it spills over into other games, but seriously a few of you have me close.

First - PLEASE SLOW DOWN POSTING!!!! Its almost impossible for me to keep up with this game, I try and read it during times im mapping on the computer at work, I try to read it during lunch, I try and read it between making dinner and just relaxing at home, but I can barely keep up with the game. I cant even tell you some of the bigger things that have happened. I think that this game requires at least an hour of work a day to keep up with it, and not too many people can do that. It is actually anti-town to saturate the game with this much information in this short of a timespan. Stop it. Seriously.

Next (and this is where you will see me start snapping soon) - People are ignoring what I have to say on myk. While this wouldnt get to me too much normally, its the people who wont shut up. This means my case gets drowned out, and people concentrate on others instead of who I want people looking at. Yes its a "me me me" thing, but when I get confident I get confident.

Seriously, just look at 952. Myk suspected Mastin of being third party, infact he was convinced of it. However he wouldnt vote him since first he was not sure that he had a note, and later that he claimed not to. So instead of voting third party (which hint hint does NOT share town win con), which theme sure suggests has a note, which he thinks doesnt have a note because WIFOM, how is he not dead? The only faction that for sure would want death notes in the game is pro-kira. Not lynching third party, even if all it does is remove a note from a game, is the right move.

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama

See my case against ZEE. Another player who decided not to vote against a shinigami. Three players, yet you have only noted it from one player.
I want to hear your opinions from ZEE and Magnus.

I dont think zee ever said "I am convinced mastin is shin with/without a note". I also had a gut town read on him fairly early, and nothing has challenged that yet for me.

MO seemed more convinced of Mastin telling the truth, which is a big point against him. I just missed that the first time through. This game is moving really fast for me and when I have about five hours a day from when I get back from work to when I go to sleep, its hard to keep up.

Either way I think myk has been much more blatant in the whole "Mastin is third party" debacle, so still like his lynch today.

Votecount
mykonian - 4 (LlamaFluff,

cateraction

, Spolium, ortolan)
zwetschenwasser - 3 (populartajo, Albert B. Rampage, Benmage)
magnus_orion - 2 (

ZazieR

, mykonian)
Kairyuu - 1 (Lamont_Cranston)
Lamont_Cranston - 1 (magnus_orion)
ZEEnon - 1 (WeyounsLastClone)
Gorrad - 1 (Kmd4390)
Not voting: zwetschenwasser, Kairyuu, Jebus, Budja, Gorrad,

semioldguy

, Seraphim, Stephoscope, ZEEnon, PhilyEc, Kise, Starbuck

This guy's been following every step you take. He doesn't see me of course, but I feel like I'm being watched...

With 25 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama

See my case against ZEE. Another player who decided not to vote against a shinigami. Three players, yet you have only noted it from one player.
I want to hear your opinions from ZEE and Magnus.

I dont think zee ever said "I am convinced mastin is shin with/without a note". I also had a gut town read on him fairly early, and nothing has challenged that yet for me.

MO seemed more convinced of Mastin telling the truth, which is a big point against him. I just missed that the first time through. This game is moving really fast for me and when I have about five hours a day from when I get back from work to when I go to sleep, its hard to keep up.

Either way I think myk has been much more blatant in the whole "Mastin is third party" debacle, so still like his lynch today.

So, you don't think this should be counted against ZEE?
Be right back to this post further.

he seemed to debate it for a few post but decided against it from what I see. If I am completely missing something though just quote it for me

[LlamaFluff]

No, I find it just strange that it seems you don't have this against ZEEnon, while you're discussing this with Myko a lot, and even said this:

Well you are missing the fact that shin are THIRD PARTY. And you know know what you should do to third party? You lynch third party. You can never count on them playing to your win condition since they do not share it. They may play with town in an attempt to not be lynched, but if they have a win chance by working with scum do you really think they arent going to take it?

Zee dropped it after a bit as he seemed to come to the conclusion that mastin was messing around. Myk never seemed to stop believing it, which is why I think he is scummy for it. If zee never seemed to realize that mastin wasnt shin, then yes, it would apply to him just as much. If two players commit a tell though, one for a couple pages, and one for thirty pages, the choice for my vote should be obvious.

[LlamaFluff]

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.
They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

^^Why you forgot him

Unless you really can put more backing that he belived that he was what he claimed, and played as such, this isnt scummy. If anything this is more of an IIOA post. LC is misinterpreting it pretty badly. To me this is the same as saying 'zwet claims to be that guys wife'.

If he said "Mastin claims to be shin and I believe it", we would be having a different discussion. I do not see anything that suggests this though.

[LlamaFluff]

Gorrad and zee wagons are laughable. I dont see anything really that says gorrad is scum, and zee is most definantly town (along with zazie and zwet, awesome how all the z's are town isnt it).

I still want a myk lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama:

Btw, on Zee, you never spoke to this:

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.
They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

^^Why you forgot him

Unless you really can put more backing that he belived that he was what he claimed, and played as such, this isnt scummy. If anything this is more of an IIOA post. LC is misinterpreting it pretty badly. To me this is the same as saying 'zwet claims to be that guys wife'.

If he said "Mastin claims to be shin and I believe it", we would be having a different discussion. I do not see anything that suggests this though.

ORLY? And what of his statement "I see what you're doing and I trust your judgement even though I disagree with it"? Doesn't this mean he sees that Mastin is Shinigami? Seems pretty clear to me.

Not to me. I dont understand what he means here, and zee is the only one who does unless he explained that somewhere I missed. My first thought when mastin claimed that was he was joking, and when he kept it up I started to wonder if he was setting a trap with inside knowledge (IIRC, L knew about shin somewhat in anime).

I realized something too that should be benificial if we get to late game. When someone is lynched, their note goes to a random person on the wagon. Town destroys notes. If we lynch pro-kira and their note is not destroyed, there must be scum on the wagon.

[LlamaFluff]

LC and his conspiracy theory is funny, and scummy... scunny. Tajo looks townie, all the Z's are still townie. Something about ben is bugging me, will try and look at that when im not already still on MS fifteen minutes after lunch ended.

[LlamaFluff]

@LC - iso 14, already did it

[LlamaFluff]

What the fuck, MBL! I remember you posting /significantly/ better content in PvN. ZWET is posting more content than you!

But he is right about myk...

[LlamaFluff]

First off, Zee is town, seriously. There is more to this read then my normal town reads (which when this strong are almost always dead on).

Steph - Zee has flaked (no post in a week+), you are using that to call him a lurker and make him out as scum. Also having a town read on a few people on the zee wagon doesnt make zee scum, unless you are insinuating that exactly half the game is scum, and they are all trying to save him. I have town reads on a few people myk has voted with, am neutral on a few on the myk wagon, but I still think he is scum. Overdefensive is a crap tell too. So your entire case right there just went poof.

@mod

- Prod Zee, Spoil and I think cater.

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama:

You still haven't acknowledged how Zee said he was

certain

that Mastin was Shinigami and how nobody should vote for him.

Where? I still dont see it

over-defensive

IS a scum tell when its not called for.

No its not, its possibly the worst scum tell that people actually try to use.

[LlamaFluff]

over-defensive

IS a scum tell when its not called for.

No its not, its possibly the worst scum tell that people actually try to use.

Sorry but this is disproven in real life with actual spies who out themselves unnecessarily due to paranoia. It is just human psychology. Remember the operative phrase here is

uncalled for

.

Its still the worst scum tell given that its all subjective. I can say Steph in 1489 is overdefensive for not just saying "Myk is scummy for X", he used additional and unneccisarry wording in an attempt to make his case look better, obv scum.

You can make ANY defense out as overdefensive. Its a crap tell, anyone using it in a case has made the case weaker in my eyes because they feel they need to bolster it with a subjective idea. Using it as an attack is a scum tell in itself.

I will put up bullet points on myk when I get back from the office, but go read my posts for quite a bit on him.

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama:

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.
They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

^^Why you forgot him

Unless you really can put more backing that he belived that he was what he claimed, and played as such, this isnt scummy. If anything this is more of an IIOA post. LC is misinterpreting it pretty badly. To me this is the same as saying 'zwet claims to be that guys wife'.

If he said "Mastin claims to be shin and I believe it", we would be having a different discussion. I do not see anything that suggests this though.

If ZEE never explains what he meant, I want to hear it from you what you think he meant. As I''m reading here and from the responses he has given that he believed Mastin''s claim.

I already said this... but I will say it again I guess just in a different way

[zee voice]Let me clarify what happened MO; Mastin claimed Shin, which by the rules is unlynchable and unNKable[/zee voice]

There is NO acceptance/disbelief from him. If anything that is where the scumtell is, not taking a stance. Zee never believed it.

[LlamaFluff]

I still have reason to be really really sure Zee is town. Overdefensive is still a bad tell that you should lynch people using it instead of people who are who are "overdefensive". Zee is harmless, myk is the one who will kill us all.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Myk

[LlamaFluff]

Well on myk we have a few main points against him. You can find many of these points in my iso 0, 1, 4, 5, 6, and 7.

Main points though

1) Early game myk flounders between MO and LC for votes.
2) Myk believes (he actually said this unlike zee) that mastin was town. This is highlited in his iso 7.
3) He votes kise because he believes he misinterprets a rule to attack Mastin.
4) Changes his vote to spoil on a "scumslip" which is increadably weak
5) Myk realizes that a majority of shin should have a note (46) but that more or less contridicts point 2
6) Tries to stop the town reads on zazie (48)
7) Myk is 90 is basically enough to lynch him for to me. If you people are arguing that zee is scum for lying about a read, you should be ALL over this one. Myk says he thought the scum claim wasnt true. There have been multiple posts where he said he believed that Mastin was shin, most noteably his post 7.


Out of time for now. But everyone voting zee for what they think is a wierd move regarding thinking mastin was shin which I know he didnt, needs to reread myk. Just read his 7 and 90 even.

[LlamaFluff]

@LC - You cant just kill points like that. Unwillingness to take a stance

is

a scumtell, I dont care if you think it doesnt apply to myk for meta reason or whatever you are implying there. It is a scumtell because it allows him to back any case he wants since he never is strongly attached to anything. I really dont want to go quote my "anti town play should always be lynched untill they get townie or stop playing" rant about Nat from an old game since it doesnt apply to myk even though you are trying to force it to but I am now rambling so am going to stop on this one.

Using bad logic is also a scum tell. Throwing shit together that doesnt make sense is scummy since its trying to lynch a player on really weak reasoning. He has done this twice one day one already that I picked up on during a skim.

I really dont think you can take away those three points, since they are more universal tells. You may think they dont apply, but I do, so I put them in. Most people will agree with me too on that, so you trying to cut my myk case down a bit is noted.

Anxious to see what you have to say though about the other points.

~Also I just realized that point 2 was supposed to say "He said mastin was shin"

Votecount
ZEEnon - 2 (Lamont_Cranston, Starbuck)
mykonian - 2 (LlamaFluff, cateraction)
Gorrad - 1 (Kmd4390)
Lamont_Cranston - 1 (Gorrad)
Benmage - 1 (magnus_orion)
Vi - 1 (zwetschenwasser)
Not voting: ortolan, Kairyuu, mykonian, Benmage, ZazieR, Vi, populartajo, MrBuddyLee, Skruffs, semioldguy, Kise, Seraphim, Stephoscope, ZEEnon, Spolium, WeyounsLastClone

L is definitely more competent than we are. As we speak, he is out there risking his life to solve this case.

With 24 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

Myk is scummy
I'm down with a myk lynch, but prefer a lamont or benmage lynch.

Dont think either of those would happen, LC I actually think is town but at multiple times wouldnt mind wagoning to make the game more enjoyable. Ben I would be down to lynch though if myk isnt happening.

We do have only about 10 days to deadline though, so something (myk lynch) needs to happen.

[LlamaFluff]

LC I actually think is town but at multiple times wouldnt mind wagoning to make the game more enjoyable.

Thanks for sharing, I wuv you too. <3

I just really shut down and tend to play bad when people are unneccisarily abbrasive. I dont like playing bad.

[LlamaFluff]

LC I actually think is town but at multiple times wouldnt mind wagoning to make the game more enjoyable.

Thanks for sharing, I wuv you too. <3

I just really shut down and tend to play bad when people are unneccisarily abbrasive. I dont like playing bad.

Me too the only difference is I don't always shut down and at that time it can get ugly.

The main thing is that its only a game and even though things can get distasteful at times, its nothing personal.

I usually just stop posting to avoid getting into it. The thing is though, if its game related I am fine. You still taking shots at Mastin though that are not constantly used for furthering another case, which is where I am starting to get a little on edge.

I step up and defend people I think are town from attacks, but im going to step up and defend anyone if someone is going over the top. Just stop taking shots at Mastin that arent needed. If you dont agree with his play, thats something to discuss post game, not right now.

I take the game as a little more then a game, this is my unwind thing that helps me keep my head level a bit.

[LlamaFluff]

I dont think that Zee is going to be lynched today, partially because I am not going to let that happen. Myk however should be lynched. We have about 10 days untill deadline which will hit over 4th of july (so for all practical purposes we should assume 1st deadline due to expected activity lax). There isnt enough time to try and move the wagon to zee and then back to myk.

Will answer more questions about zee later, but if you go back and read him closely, it should be very obvious why I do not want him lynched (I think a few others have seen it too). My choice of myk over zee is far from arbitrary, even though they have been very similar.

[LlamaFluff]

@non voters - become voters

[LlamaFluff]

Not moving my vote. I do not buy this at all, will explain later.

[LlamaFluff]

Welcome to... "Lynch the fakeclaiming scum already" with your host... LlamaFluff!!!!

I think Mastin didn't make up his story, and is now saying it was not serious, something that makes me think we should actually lynch him. The way he posted in the start, it seemed weird. This made me think that he was shinigami, but not in danger/not harmful to town. Now he tried to say he was simple town, and I don't buy it. But mastin confuses me a lot, and it is practically impossible to get a read on him.

Zeenon and Zazie? I have no idea.

Forgot Magnus again, didn't I? Well, his reaction on Mastin is not that strong, he plays a bit weird, so I can see what is happening there. But, lately, he doesn't really stand out to me.

Now you know about what I think, and I think the most important person, because of the claim, should be Mastin, but, while my vote on Magnus doesn't hurt, and could only be used to pressure Magnus by someone else, a vote on Mastin should be used more careful, I think, as it is later in the game, and should be a serious, and well reasoned vote. But if it makes you happy, I could

unvote

. Do you have any questions about what I think?

Well right here myk claims to have a null read on Mastin at bet. Even the last part which shows the most suspicion of Mastin seems to be somewhat wary of the lynch. There is much more of a suspicion of MO at this point then Mastin.

Ok read about 1/2, skimmed the rest, it is exam-study week for me so I may have limited time here.

On Mastin:

He claims to be a shinigami without a deathnote. This makes his early gambit make perfect sense to me. If he can't be affected by a lynch/kill then he has absolutly nothing to lose by claiming.

The only part that I don't like is that he claims he is town-aligned (death-notes burn if he gets one), which sound usual for a shinigami.

I don't think lynching mastin is a good idea at all. If he is indeed unkillable, then it is a waste.

more later...

mastin, is this true? because I thought you didn't claim this way...

Mastin was killed before myk posted again. I do not for a second believe that you would kill a player while there is an unanswered question that you have asked them that they are obviously not avoiding.

As far as I can tell, there is really no way he is the vig. First, he thinks mastin does not have a note, he even comes to the conclusion that a lynch of Mastin is useless (7).

Myk didnt even suspect Mastin it seemed before he died. I see MO and LC as more likely kills easily if myk was the vig. When you combine that with the fact that he is using that Mastin was confusing him, or that Mastin was the eventual lynch.

I just dont buy it really. This is a very convienant claim, and his actions leading up to the kill make no sense when you see Mastin was the kill.

Also see asking the town how to claim, saying he will be NKed either way and AtE.

This has been "Lynch the fakeclaiming scum already" with LlamaFluff

[LlamaFluff]

Also, if myk is fakeclaiming the real vig will just kill him tomorrow. Seriously, lynching him is stupid.

I would prefer to have the vig be able to kill who they feel like. On top o that, if we lynch myk, we know a lot more and the PRs have a whole lot better idea of how to use their actions.

Im sure enough to just lynch myk today, even with his claim. Myk being the vig just does not add up.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Stephoscope

(I need a good shortening of this name)

I am more convinced then yesterday that Zee is town.

Sometime tonight or tomorrow I will have reasoning as to why we should be killing Steph

[LlamaFluff]

Well it looks like Llama is trying to line up with 2 for 2 with Stepho here. I stand by my assertion that the case against Zee is very strong & that he is not defending as a simple townie would; there are serious logical inconsistencies in his defense...

One thing I learned a long time ago was not to lynch people for being well... for lack of a better word... stupid. It gets a lot of townies lynched because its normally the same people over and over (I am not naming names here, I do not think zee is a "bad" player, I have my list of bad players I refuse to play with though).

Now, what is important is what they gain by being fundamentally wrong in ideas. Are they using fallacies to defend scum, to get town lynched, only when it benifits them? Once you look at those things, then you are able to make a more clear choice about what is scum wrong and what is town wrong. Zee is town wrong.

Also kise voting ben really makes me need to reread both of those. Llama has the willies over what happened there

Votecount
Stephoscope - 2 (LlamaFluff, Kmd4390)
Not voting: ortolan, zwetschenwasser, Kairyuu, mykonian, Benmage, magnus_orion, Vi, populartajo, MrBuddyLee, Gorrad, Skruffs, Starbuck, Kise, Seraphim, Stephoscope, ZEEnon, ThAdmiral, WeyounsLastClone, Lamont_Cranston

Hyuk, Hyuk, Heartwarming scenes with the most unfortunate family in the world... What a riot!

With 21 alive, it's 11 to lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

Almost no time, I know im falling behind when I said that I would have stuff done.

Starting to try and put something together on steph. Go back and read him in iso if you havent. He does nothing for the first large part of the game except call people town, mostly random too it would seem. Apart from that there are lots of semantics arguing (just like myk). Eventuallly he puts a vote on zee, saying its from two others cases, adding nothing to the case. If you only read stephs posts you would have no clue why anyone voted zee.

[LlamaFluff]

Im going to start a PBPA of why we should be lynching steph. On a quick reread on ben ive cooled quite a bit on my suspicion there though.

0 - LC is town for playing aggressive
1 - Calls all active people town with no reasoning. Calls Mastin obv-town in hindsight. Says that they will only really comment on wagons. This is already laying the groundwork for how the majority of D1 was played.
2 - Filler post on rules
3 - Filler post on terminology
4 - Filler post on rules
5 - Calls LC town again. Says he has not found ANY scumtells. This is quite a ways into the game too.
6 - Wonders why zwet claimed
7 - Filler post saying "I was about to ask that"
8 - Asking people if they think someone is shin or kira. This is pointless, conversation. Neither have a town win condition, which means neither are town, and both are scum.
9 - Says zwet is town
10 - Another terminology filler post
11 - Notices a stray vote, doesnt back it up as townish or scummy. More filler about terminology.
12 - Turns out the stray vote was only noticed due to MBL just having replaced in. Its not persued. Oh yeah this whole post was filler too.
13 - Holy crap, a scum read. Then again its because two people he thinks are town think a third is town. Up untill this point though he has never mentioned that either of the two (WLC and Philly) as town reads.
14 - Adds kmd to town reads
15 - Super mega fence sit here. He trusts the people on the zee wagon more then the myk wagon, however he sees the case on the myk wagon. Although dont forget he actually mentions he "isnt sticking up for myk"

More later... but really look at this so far.

At least 8 filler posts, lots of random town reads that are never backed by anything, odd wagoning based on town reads that fall out of the sky on the myk-rival wagon, sitting on both sides of the myk-zee race, eventually backing zee, but making a blatant point that he isnt trying to defend myk.

This is only up through his iso 15 too. It gets even better. Its just late and im tired

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Steph

With luck I get done with this case tonight

[LlamaFluff]

I lost most of this post just a little bit ago, but lets make a run at the sequal to "Lynch the Fakeclaiming Scum Already"... welcome to... "Lynch the Scum Before They Get a Chance to Fakeclaim that Multiple People Inexplicably Buy"... also known as "The Llama Show"

16 - Claims that zee is scum for "overdefensiveness" and not posting enough. I dont want to get into my "overdefensive is a scam" arguement here if people dont want to hear it, and there were quite a few D1 lurkers. I posted less then zee did. I still have less then 40 posts. This just seems to be an opportinistic tack on for a weak case.

Also there is a huge awkwardness on myk here. He is "not saying he is convinced he is scum", but at the same time he is scummy. The reasoning mentioned is weaker then anything brought up against him so far as well. It almost seems like he is just giving the nod in that direction for if he needs to move there later.

17 - Votes myk, no reasoning on the vote. No reason that zee is less scummy. Just votes

18 - Fishing for a way off the myk wagon. He still says that he will move back to the zee wagon if that wagon grows a bit. Even though he is on the myk wagon, he is still trying to push the zee wagon instead of it.

19 - See iso 16, see why I still dont like it

20 - Sort of confusing. Says that the game is fast paced, and that he cant keep up well. Also seems to say "Im town so I suspect the people who I think are scummy"

21 - Again is pushing the zee wagon from the myk wagon. He says that zee is a better lynch, that he would advise people to vote him, and that people should wonder if he is bussing zee. Yeah I dont get it either, just feels wrong on many levels.

22 - I missed this before. He says "If" I am innocent in his 20. Why the word "if". It makes it seem like he is not innocent, or he otherwise would not of chosen to use the word if.

23 - Mostly complaining about the game being big and moving fast. Also says zazie is misinterpreting him. I dont even understand him. Also I was in the other large game he was in, and he just doesnt feel as townie as he was in that game.

24 - Says he is only voting myk due to the zee wagon losing legs (again trying to call the myk wagon weak while being on it). Also seems to be getting really flustered by zazie.

25 - After the claim immediately wants a myk lynch more then a zee lynch. He just suddenly "doesnt buy the claim". No reason given. It is a very quick move though.

26 - Useless speculation

27 - Major logical fallacy here. Says one of kmd and zee are likely scum. Also I see no reason why kmd is now a suspect or anything like that.

28 - Says the kmd vote was in part OMGUS, and gave no reasoning to get reactions. Says he needs to reread zee as well. There still has been no legitimate reasons to vote kmd given.

29 - Now wonders if kmd-zee are both scum, that makes next to no sense given his 27. Still no reasons for kmd to be scum, heck I dont think he has given reasons for zee to be scum at this point.

30 - Wagon hop to kise ho...


Well thats all from Steph so far in this game. I will try and pick out key elements of the case soon and put it together in a nice neat little package.

Join us sometime the next few days on "The Llama Show" to see the exciting conclusion of why we should lynch steph

[LlamaFluff]

FWIW, this is the same way ive seen MBL play as town in a different game before he went into jackal ownage mode on day three or so.

Why did everyone just ignore what I have on steph so far? Just waiting for me to put a little bow on it? You can add the what... third? Fourth? mindless wagon he has been on for his last post too.

[LlamaFluff]

FWIW,

this is the same way ive seen MBL play as town in a different game before he went into jackal ownage mode on day three or so

.

Why did everyone just ignore what I have on steph so far? Just waiting for me to put a little bow on it? You can add the what... third? Fourth? mindless wagon he has been on for his last post too.

Can you please elaborate a bit on this?

spies series, its an offsite thing which mixes forum mafia with AIM mafia. Basically both are in effect for the entire game, so you can talk privately and things like that whenever. Played all with aliases and stuff, very elaborate, very tiring to play as scum.

Anyways, MBL was pretty UTR for the first few days of the game, then just showed up all agressive like and scum way overextended themselves to get that lynch since he was such a threat. I think I was the only anti-town not to vote him during that lynch.

I dont agree with people trying to avoid being NKed by lurking or anything like that. I would rather get killed early every game as town since it means im doing decent, in fact I still hold around 50% deaths by N2 as town. This just really isnt against the meta of him that I have, even if it is really limited.

[LlamaFluff]

I'd be willing to buy it if the game mechanic wasn't so different. As it is he as been posting up a storm in another game and not posting here hardly at all. That combined with how Budja had such anti-town views and how now he's posting an Encyclopedia Britannica, I think my vote is in the right place.

This is... wrong. By a whole lot.

1) If you are arguing different mechanics, then this game is also a different mechanich. So the meta should be more consistant right? This game has multiple scum that can transfer killing powers. As town lynches scum with killing power, ammount of scum with killing power drops. I have to say that I have never seen that done before. Different mechanich in my book.
2) Bringing up Budja is another thing that is way off here. I get the feeling that you paniced when you got flack back from someone who had been lurking. During your initial pushing of MBL, you never really mentioned what his predicessor had done. If you never brought it up, it wasnt a big tell to you. WHen you got challenged, it got thrown in the mix immediately as a way to make what was a weak case hopefully stronger.
3) You also claim that MBL is now scum for posting a lot. I thought he was just scum for not posting much at all. What this means is you set it up so that regardless of what happened, you would be able to call him scum for his posting pattern. Setting something up so its a scummy reaction regardless of what occurs, and you are obviously looking for a reaction to start, in its own is scummy.

I need to go and at least skim some stuff comparing you and steph at this point, since I still am completely convinced of steph being scum. If it comes down to you or MBL though, its no contest where my vote is going to go.

[LlamaFluff]

Time for the Llama show again

If you want to bullet the case so far against steph, it comes in parts as the game progresses.

In the early game, Steph did absolutely nothing productive to the game. There are multiple arbitrary town reads on players; LC, Mastin (post death), WLC, philly, kmd and zwet. All of those reads came in his first 15 posts too. None of these posts were even backed by reasoning for the town reads. Few to any of these reads went against the towns basic opinions as well.

So far, that means that Steph has done nothing in the game. You can say he votes Zee at one point, but he immediately pawns that vote off on WLC and Philly, saying that he is voting based on their case. At this point in the game, if you read him in iso, you have NO clue what any case on any player is. You dont even know why people might be town.

As the game transitions to the mid part of D1, we have an actual change in how Steph is being scummy. He goes from contributing nothing, to making numerous unique moves regarding the competing wagons of zee and myk.

Lets count the attempts at trying to downplay the myk wagon while still not calling him town, or at very least calling him more scummy then zee

I'm not at all sticking up for mykonian, as I kind of see the case against him too. I'm just saying...take a look and see if you agree.

one...

Well, with mykonian, let me be clear: I am not at all convinced he's scum. But comments from others about how he seemed like he was coasting through the game, and providing information not analysis, were not without merit.

two... (he is nearly forced to, and does, vote myk here)

The wagon has been on mykonian, and I am suspicious enough of him (I mentioned reasons why before) that I think he is a worthy lynch. I would rather lynch him than risk a player I think is town being lynched. However, I will absolutely shift my vote to ZEEnon if his lynch looks like a possibility.

three...

I'd advise them to lynch ZEEnon, who I still think is most likely to be scum, then thank me for my help (assuming he's scum) and wonder if I really would have bussed him (somewhat WIFOM, but whatever)

four...

Four attempts!

Ya know, now that is a LOT of attempts to shut down the myk wagon. They all were done really sly too. I can understand backing a town read, I myself have done that plenty of times since town reads are something to trust in. This however was in a situation where Steph did not let go of the myk wagon, ever. He consistantly (and blatantly) said that he was not at all defending myk, more then should ever of been said from what I see as a natural standpoint. Even when he ended up on the myk wagon, he still tried to detract from it as much as possible. This is not town play.

And thats Steph in a nutshell D1. D2 will happen later.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama...I know I haven't been the most active player so far, and I apologize for that.

I never said you were inactive, I said you never contributed to the game. Those are very different things. I have less then one post a day in this game, but feel I have contributed more then some who have more posts.

But how exactly would I be defending a Shinigami if I were scum like you claim?

You would be defending him like everything I said in my last post.

[LlamaFluff]

Why would scum know who the Shinigami are??

Ive been watching the anime, shinigami are usually in contact with all kiras. Especially ryuk who I think was in contact with every kira except the business guy. Why would you think shinigami have no contact with kiras?

[LlamaFluff]

Anyone else realize how Steph shrugged off my entire case on him by arguing some random point instead, and now that that is done, still isnt responding?

[LlamaFluff]

Does anyone more familiar with the anime than I am have any thoughts on whether or not scum would know who the Shinigami are? We can't let Llama get away with it if she just blew her cover.

Why would scum know who the Shinigami are??

they know now. But they knew me under my rolename.

So shin-kira have contact according to shin, when flavor suggests this is true as well, I dont think he is lying.

Also im not a she. Why do people always think im a she? Its a dude lion people.

I may not be entirely done with my case on you, but you can still respond to what is up now instead of trying to hide from it.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm not trying to hide from anything. I said I would respond when you're all done, and that is still what I intend to do. But it should already be clear where your existing case falls apart. If I had been scum, and knew mykonian's "role" only, I would not have known to "defend" him as you claim I did.

Well if shin-kira are in contact even by rolename, im sure any semi-alert player could either tell who they were talking to through post analysis. Also do you really think myk would not of revealed himself to a kira player when he was in trouble? I know that it would of been one of the first things that I did.

You have twisted what mykonian said (re: knowing role not player) and also what I said ("random point"?!). And it's very possible you gave away scum knowledge. IGMEOY.

I dont get it. Im scum for having what the connection between shin-kira was wrong? I think that any kira that was in contact with myk would of known who myk was. There is no doubt that ryuk isnt town, there is no reason for scum not to say who they are to other scum, it would prevent any accidental cross kills. Logic points to myk and anyone he could talk to knowing who eachother are.

As for why people think you're a she, it's probably the pink baby carriage.

Yeah im not a fan of the pink either. It is a dude lion though.

LlamaFluff can stop ignoring me a-ny-time now.

Am I missing anything in specific or do you want a general response to what you have been putting up?

[LlamaFluff]

@Vi - If I was just going down my list of who is scummiest, Starbuck would be my third lynch. My "read in iso" thing isnt working right now for some reason, the bottom part of the page is broken or something for me, so I cant really go through quoting multiple posts or anything. Starbuck is at the bottom of the three that I would not be against a lynch of right now, scummier then the gut reads but there are better options.

Things like 2410 just dont sit well with me. The "reasons" for the lynch of Thad is bad, this game would be hell to reread. Ort replacing out is a null tell, not a scum tell, I know there are two people that if I saw replace in, I would either want them lynched/replaced out or I would be gone. LC I dont remember her ever giving inital reasons to vote. Which leaves just zee who basically is a "if people ever try and lynch him, I now have a reason to join that wagon" move.

[LlamaFluff]

@Steph - one thing you need to realize is that im always town. I think ive been lynched twice in about 25 games. You also are applying something along the lines of "too townie" here. I am scum since no one is calling me scum, it must means my partners are calling me town. See the logic fail there? Should I just call you scum some more since you wagon isnt growing, it means that your buddies are still trying to get someone else lynched instead.

@kmd - You are calling both Steph and MBL scum IIRC, who is scummier and why?

[LlamaFluff]

@Steph - one thing you need to realize is that im always town. I think ive been lynched twice in about 25 games.

I have no idea how you thought this statement would help your cause. If you were town in your 25 first games here, that would not change your chances of being scum now. And I'd say anyone who's been lynched only twice in 25 games must be excellent at playing as scum.

Im getting a little flustered that you are calling me scum and seem to be using things that really arent scum tells based on me looking town and not being ever called scum. I have had to defend against too townie before, and defend against "yeah he looks town, but always looks town so neutral read". Its really annoying to play with.

You also are applying something along the lines of "too townie" here. I am scum since no one is calling me scum, it must means my partners are calling me town. See the logic fail there? Should I just call you scum some more since you wagon isnt growing, it means that your buddies are still trying to get someone else lynched instead.

That is an absurd misrepresentation of what I said. It's not even close. I saw a possible scumtell, and I appealed to others for their opinions. I'd be more confident in your scumminess if others agreed with me. That is NOTHING like what you just said.

Awesome, now its even scummier. You left it to OTHERS to decide if im scummy or not. It would be like after I made that post on you I never voted and asked if anyone agreed.

[LlamaFluff]

Actually, you'll notice that I appealed to everyone else to give their opinions on whether it should have been assumed that the scum and the Shinigami would have been in contact. No one has answered me yet. If LlamaFluff is scum, I don't expect any of his scum buddies to step forward and call him scummy, so if no other players do at all, my suspicions will be lessened.

I see this as part flavor debate (seriously, you can find the entire series online). Basically to sum it up for you from at least what the anime is; any human that has touched a death note, can see the shinigami that owns it. At the start of the series, light can see and talk to ryuk whenever, and Misa can talk to Rem whenever she wants.

The second part seems to just be wierd. You say if im scum you dont think that I will be bussed, but if no one says im scummy your suspicions will go down. This may be where I get confused a bit, but you are saying "he wont be bussed" meaning if I am scum I wont get wagoned, and then you are saying "he is town if people agree he looks town", which satisfies the condition for your first scenario.

I honestly think we have wires crossed on terminology or something somewhere, or someone used a double negative, since we are repeting ourselves here.

Votecount
Lamont -4 ( MrBuddyLee, Starbuck, Gorrad, populartajo)
Stephoscope -4 (Llamafluff, magnus_orion, Kairyuu, Kmd4390)
MrBuddyLee -3 (Benmage, Lamont_Cranston, mykonian)
LlamaFluff -2 (Zwetchenwasser, Stephoscope)
Starbuck -1 (Vi)
Skruffs -1 (WeyounsLastClone)
Not voting: ortolan, Skruffs, Seraphim, ZEEnon, ThAdmiral,

I think Kira is...an affluent child.

With 20 alive, it's 11 to lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

@Steph - one thing you need to realize is that im always town. I think ive been lynched twice in about 25 games.

I have no idea how you thought this statement would help your cause. If you were town in your 25 first games here, that would not change your chances of being scum now. And I'd say anyone who's been lynched only twice in 25 games must be excellent at playing as scum.

This is my essential logic.

Yay... too townie fallacy...

So because I play a good game as scum it means you should always lynch me? I play good town, so shouldnt that mean you should always not lynch me? I just might be a bit dense when I feel my playstyle is getting attacked, but I dont see how this isnt a "too townie" situation

[LlamaFluff]

Stepho, Kise & Myk they are all easy lynches. There are cases for each of them. The thing about easy lynches is they often flip town... :cry:

"easy lynch" players get easier to read as you play with them more. You still lynch scummy players though. If you want me to start going off on why you lynch scummy players even if they are "always scummy", then I will. I can read some of those types of players though, myk I can read as town and scum now it seems. Steph I called right as town in my first game with him, and dont have the same read here.

The MBL wagon is really ugly looking, I would rather lynch everyone on it then lynch MBL. LC wagon is ok, but there are better spots to put a vote. Steph wagon however is just money. Every post he makes just makes me want to lynch him even more at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

I agree with the Dude (Lion). Except for the part about the Stepho wagon being money; I'm not as sure on that for the moment.

If I said that I was a banker and I know money when I see it, would that help convice you?

[LlamaFluff]

You cant get anyone else? millar is one of the people I basically refuse to play with

[LlamaFluff]

Yeah I know its hard and such. Its just annoying to see someone I want to policy lynch replace in 100 pages into the game.

[LlamaFluff]

[*] Any scum player possessing a Death Note is Kira. There can be multiple Kiras, even at the same time, and there even can be no Kiras.

@mod

- If a player posesses a note then no longer posesses a note do they become pro-town on role reveal?

No. Alignment is unrelated to current, past, or future possession of a Death Note.

@SSK - flavor claim please

[LlamaFluff]

@SSK - flavor claim please

Name or just flavor or both?

I say both. There are very few people who I can see as a miller in this game, and most of those people, its really making a streach to have them be a miller.

For people who have played with me, they should know what my take on miller claims is for the most part. Most situations they should come in the first post of the game, I am a complete supporter of that. Now I also think that miller claims are just like any other roleclaim. You think they are scum, you lynch, you think they are town, you dont lynch. In a normal game I would not be saying lynch SSK at this point.

This game is theme though, and every role has reasoning behind it. This is also a theme I know reasonably well, and for the most part should be predictable. Unlike the Robot Chicken game where we saw a death miller claim (which I was totally right in calling town), this one really should have a whole lot backing it. For people who dont know RC is basically a clip show type thing with few reoccuring characters, death note is not.

Will decide on my take more after SSK explains who he is and why he is a miller.

@SSK - Why not flavor/role claim when you claimed miller?

[LlamaFluff]

I dont like this role/flavor. We are hunting for notes, not for mysterious looking players.

I still think that Steph is scum though. So am sort of grappling with a claim that doesnt fit flavor too well coming from a replacement of someone that I thought was town, against someone who I think is scum.

Need some thinking time here

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
Vote MafiaSSK

This is the only thing that makes any sense.

Now, Aiber is a con artist which has already been mentioned. He is not really "mysterious" as opposed to other characters in the game (mostly L, Near etc). I see no way in a game that we are trying to eliminate all the death notes, that someone who is "mysterious" would investigate as scum. I would think that would be people who had partial ownership (Chief Yagami) or used the note but was never Kira (Newscaster Lady). These were the ones I would of more believed a claim of Miller from.

The "sometimes" scum one bugs me even more. I dont get how someone could show as scum to certain cops but not others. This would require me to believe that for some reason, when people are searching for Kira, a mysterious player would get guilties. If Aiber is a miller I would say people like Wedy, Mello and Matt would also be millers.

If you even want to add in WIFOM, ort is a strong player, I seriously doubt that he would of not claimed miller in his first post (which is the right move).

I still am pretty sure that Steph is scum, but SSK just made a really really bad fakeclaim.

[LlamaFluff]

However, I do think that a possible line of thought would be:
I want to include aiber in this game --> Now whats a good role for aiber? --> Well he's a con artist, so how about a miller?

Call me naive, but I think higher of the mod. The right* thought process from the mod standpoint is "I want to include a miller, who fits as a miller, oh no one, I shouldnt put a miller in this game." Also, if Aiber is a miller, I would of expected Wedy to be a miller too, and we never had that claim. If someone even starts to argue "well Wedy could be a theif" I will slap them. Con artist is a criminal, theif is a criminal, both characters where introduced at the same time, employed by the same person, I dont see only one being a miller.

*right is how I design a theme

In any event, I'm against the idea that we lynch him for the claim alone. That is hasty, rash, and opportunistic.

Normally I would agree with this statement, but the claim makes ZERO sense in context of the flavor. I even know I dont argue flavor too much, but there is NO way that being "mysterious" makes Aiber a miller in this game. No way at all.

If I had to make a guess of what the setup was, its something along the lines of L, Near, Mello as death note cops, which get a guilty on kira players, and maybe shin. Aiber does not have a death note, I dont even think Aiber TOUCHED a death note (if it was it was majorly majorly underplayed).

In a game where mafia is distinguished by having or potentially having a death note, being a "mysterious" player, who had minimal if any contact with a death note should NEVER be a basis for being a miller. Look at my previous examples, they were the best I could come up with for what a miller in this game would be. Aiber is a poor choice for miller. SSK is lying scum.

[LlamaFluff]

In a game where mafia is distinguished by having or potentially having a death note, being a "mysterious" player, who had minimal if any contact with a death note should NEVER be a basis for being a miller. Look at my previous examples, they were the best I could come up with for what a miller in this game would be. Aiber is a poor choice for miller. SSK is lying scum.

First of all, I don't get your logic. Second of all, I have never seen Death Note before and will not look it up.

Death note is basically based around little notebooks that if you write the name of someone in they die. People who use the death note are called "Kira", which is basically the scum faction in this game. Aiber is a con man hired by a genius cop kid to help him out.

Call me naive, but I think higher of the mod. The right* thought process from the mod standpoint is "I want to include a miller, who fits as a miller, oh no one, I shouldnt put a miller in this game." Also, if Aiber is a miller, I would of expected Wedy to be a miller too, and we never had that claim. If someone even starts to argue "well Wedy could be a theif" I will slap them. Con artist is a criminal, theif is a criminal, both characters where introduced at the same time, employed by the same person, I dont see only one being a miller.

The way you design a theme is then basically applying the mafia game, then attaching roles to the game with a theme. However, the other way of doing it is start with the theme, and then build the game up around that. One is not "better" than the other, nor is it not thinking any less of the moderator for doing one over the other. Frankly, the ability to time the deaths in the death notes leads me to believe that the game is built around the theme, not the theme built around the game.

Well the death notes are more of a concept which comes before the main part of applying roles and characters. I usually do concept -> roles -> theme. Why include a miller though? There was never and false leads in death note. To have Aiber as a miller would of really been forcing a miller to be in the game where one shouldnt of been.

Wedy would probably be more along the lines of a watcher... with her cameras and all.
Aiber is a criminal is thinking too broadly. He's a conman, which means he makes you think he's something he's not. This could weigh in on investigation results, could it not?

Con people trick people into thinking they are good, not bad. I would believe a con man being a GF over a miller. I just think this claim stinks flavor wise.

[LlamaFluff]

Well the death notes are more of a concept which comes before the main part of applying roles and characters. I usually do concept -> roles -> theme. Why include a miller though? There was never and false leads in death note. To have Aiber as a miller would of really been forcing a miller to be in the game where one shouldnt of been.

Assuming everyone thinks like you can usually lead to some very faulty conclusions.

I do believe everyone thinks logically (which has got me into trouble a few times, but it helps me a WHOLE lot more). Pushing a miller into a game where it does not fit well is not logical. In a game with two people working on it, I am sure that they can find someone better, or just of make Aiber VT.

Con people trick people into thinking they are good, not bad. I would believe a con man being a GF over a miller. I just think this claim stinks flavor wise.

Ah, but Aiber was a
good guy who tricked the Yotsuba group into believing he was an ace detective who could be easily bribed with money.

I think this backs up my point well, tricking someone into siding with them, not tricking someone into making him look evil.

There was never and false leads in death note

"L, do you know, gods of death,..."

Fine, no false leads that implicated a incorrect person.

Gorrad has it.

~~~

@MO - If you are going to cite ONE part of the story that makes someone look miller, anyone could be a miller basically. Wedy broke into the Yotuba guys house, Mello and Matt teamed up to kidnap that one guy, you could make lots of people scum for a single action.

[LlamaFluff]

Fine, no false leads that implicated a incorrect person.

Mikami is using the notebook to kill people in Kira's place.

Which is why I said I could see her as miller. I could buy Mikami as any alignment in this game, but would expect kira.

[LlamaFluff]

Fine, no false leads that implicated a incorrect person.

Mikami is using the notebook to kill people in Kira's place.

Which is why I said I could see her as miller. I could buy Mikami as any alignment in this game, but would expect kira.

Actually hah, wrong person.

Teru would be Kira. Had a death note and used it as kira intentionally.

[LlamaFluff]

Yes, you're confusing Teru Mikami with Kyomi Takada.
Mikiami was a false lead while Takada was actually doing the killings.

Yeah its been a while since I saw the last part of the anime in a comprehensive state of mind. I guess I could see one of them being a miller while the other is kira, but both were striving for the same thing, neither were "pro-town".

I had forgotten Kyomi did more then the one Mello kill

Also Aiber was a good dead body... if that counts? I just dont see a con-man as coming up miller when we are looking for death notes. Especially a con man that never was in contact with a ntoe.

[LlamaFluff]

Call me naive, but I think higher of the mod. The right* thought process from the mod standpoint is "I want to include a miller, who fits as a miller, oh no one, I shouldnt put a miller in this game." Also, if Aiber is a miller, I would of expected Wedy to be a miller too, and we never had that claim. If someone even starts to argue "well Wedy could be a theif" I will slap them. Con artist is a criminal, theif is a criminal, both characters where introduced at the same time, employed by the same person, I dont see only one being a miller.

I’m confused here. Are you saying Aiber/Wedy are criminals and so are Kira or Pro-Kira…basically not of the town win condition (since I don’t know Death Note and may be wording this incorrectly)

Aiber and Wedy were hired by Near to help aid in catching Kira. So they would both be pro-town in this game even though they were a conman and thief.

Con people trick people into thinking they are good, not bad. I would believe a con man being a GF over a miller. I just think this claim stinks flavor wise.

So you’re saying Aiber could be the GF?

No. I am just trying to signify how a conman would appear good instead of bad, not the other way around.

I do believe everyone thinks logically (which has got me into trouble a few times, but it helps me a WHOLE lot more). Pushing a miller into a game where it does not fit well is not logical. In a game with two people working on it, I am sure that they can find someone better, or just of make Aiber VT.

What..Aiber went from GF, to VT…what qualifies people for “scum” in this game….

If I made this game Aiber would very likely be VT, he is a very minor character, yet pro-town. Fits VT very well. Also having a death note is scum in this game. Potentially having a note also is scum, just scum that can not kill.

[LlamaFluff]

If I made this game Aiber would very likely be VT, he is a very minor character, yet pro-town. Fits VT very well. Also having a death note is scum in this game. Potentially having a note also is scum, just scum that can not kill.

So to conclude you don't believe Aiber would be a Miller (logically)
Where would you place Wedy, other than pro-town...VT as well?

Yes, flavor does not put him at miller. Here are some roles that I can come up with before miller that make more sense

-Yotsuba Cop
-Vanilla Town
-GF Nullifier

Yes. Slightly lower chance of being VT given use of her over Aiber in death note, but I would say +95% VT. Both appear at the same time, work hand in hand, are limited characters, and are both killed by kira.

[LlamaFluff]

Aiber and Wedy were hired by Near to help aid in catching Kira. So they would both be pro-town in this game even though they were a conman and thief

They were hired by L, not near.

I still see him as a potential miller. Remember that he was trying to make it seem like he was trying to find out who L was, so Yotsuba could kill L.
For anyone not privy to his real motivations, his actions appear to be on kira's side. Since he'd be hiding his real motivations to get to kira, anyone who independently investigated him would see him on kira's side.

Yes, this kind of makes sense as to why Aiber could be a miller. I never though of it from third party since death note is linear timewise while this game isnt. However this is not the reason that SSK gave. It is something taken from flavor that makes sense as a reason for someone to be a miller, yet its not give to the role as an explaination?

Also, ad hom is scummy.

Not inherantly, but thats a different arguement. I tend to use ad hom when someone is really putting me on tilt.

[LlamaFluff]

Because Mello's so BLATANTLY anti-town that if he knows who Mello is, it would be unfair (As it would be an auto-outting of a scum role). If the mod wanted a role that would auto-out a scum role, he'd have SSK just know who Mello was instead of masonizing.

I would more argue that Mello is anti-near, but pro-town. If non-shin can be third party, I would of put him as some sort of town lyncher-cop who needs to either investigate more kira, outlive or something along that lines compared to Near to fullfill a win condition.

We also have about five days to deadline. If for some reason we are not lynching SSK, Steph needs to be the one to get lynched here. During this whole move away from discussing him/LC/MBL, he has just gone and lurked away. I have no clue about where he stands on all these things, which really is starting to concern me.

I still think SSK is lying. If he isnt, he has a role that basically is "You are a miller. When L dies you can talk to three town players". That is basically a "you are a miller, when L dies you become a mason with three other people". So its basically a four person masonry of all town to neutral players. Anyone else see where that doesnt make sense?

[LlamaFluff]

Stephoscope should be lynched because stephoscope is scum.

No, I am most definitely not.

No you most definantly is.

Look, something needs to be clear on two events right now. First, SSK is scum. His claim just makes no sense, and the continuation of it to include a possible masonship with three other players makes even less sense. If we assume there isnt anything bastardly enough like the mod gave scum a fakeclaim like Watari and that scum would be able to talk to SSK if L died (actually now that im even thinking about it more it would make sense that if SSK needs L to die, Watari would need to be dead to but I digress). Its just that far fetched to have this make sense. In a F10ish situation, L just claims, gets lynched, and there is an insurmountable group of town, which basically means the game is broken, which if it really was a year in development, I highly doubt is true. So point one, SSK is scum. Point two is Steph is scum. Go read what ive put up on him, go read what others have to say about him. I really do not care a whole lot about which we lynch today, although I slightly prefer SSK since obv-fakeclaim, in additon to forthcoming reasons, beats out super scummy.

Second point, and maybe perhaps more important... so important it gets its own little line here

DEADLINE IS IN JUST OVER FOUR DAYS. WITHOUT A MAJORITY WE NO LYNCH.

SSK lynch is easiest to swing, we already have a claim from him, etc etc. Steph isnt a bad lynch, I am just more concerned about getting the necessary votes on him given that scum can stall for just a few days pretty easily.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
vote steph

[LlamaFluff]

And I find it kind of strange Llama exerts that much power that we all follow blindly into voting Stepho at the moment. Now, Llama actually used some arguments, but everyone other voting for Stepho at the moment just have a simple unvote, vote, without actually backing up their vote. Especially Kairyuu is opportunistic with his 'SSK is tomorrow's play'. That is standard scum text. Jump on a bandwagon, and already highlight another player that's voted for a lot to go after next day.

So... what does this mean? It seems to say you think Steph is scum from my case but not from everyone elses actions given that people like kai wagoned and left SSK for a later lynch. Which is why im confused as to what you think of Steph and SSK.

[LlamaFluff]

Steph needs to claim too. He is at L-3 I think.

[LlamaFluff]

Does it matter either way? What it is time for is some late game theatrics though brought to you by Pepsi, fueling my gameplay since I just drank way too much.

Deadline is coming and what is happening now is in no way condusive to actually getting stuff done at deadline. Instead we are just sort of standing back and watching chips fall where ever. If I have timezones correct, for me deadline hits Wednesday at about 7. Not really all that far in the future.

The following people need to either quit being stubborn, get replaced, or get prodded.

The ones throwing away a vote: MBL, zwet, WLC
The ones not even voting: Skruffs, Sera, ST, Thad

Why a million times are we on page 112, with deadline approaching, and have SEVEN PEOPLE NOT DOING ANYTHING PRODUCTIVE. I mean really people, this is just beyond frustrating, we are NOT going to end up no lynching today. The people who are posting (WLC and Thad) this is even more relevent too, the rest just seem to show up every few days, but you two know what is going on, there is no way you should be holding onto your vote at this stage of the game.

[LlamaFluff]

No one should counter, even if he is fakeclaiming. It will be obvious after the SSK lynch if he is lying or not.

unvote
vote SSK

[LlamaFluff]

No one should counter, even if he is fakeclaiming. It will be obvious after the SSK lynch if he is lying or not.

Dude Lion, do you think Stepho is fakeclaiming?

(34)

The claim makes sense flavor wise for the most part, and it does explain the swoop and sit on the SSK wagon. Just my two biggest problems with the claim is convinance, and that I still think Steph is really really scummy. I dont think he should ever be lynched without a counterclaim though, or at least some role condeming him as scum. If you are looking for a more straightforward answer, yes, but with a few reservations.

Regardless he basically just said that by his role he knows SSK is lying. So if SSK is not lying, then we just vig/lynch Steph tomorrow. If SSK is scum, its a point to Steph not lying, as much as it pains me to say it.

@kmd - it was probably a good thing you did that. It stops an accidental quick lynch of him at deadline.

[LlamaFluff]

Regardless he basically just said that by his role he knows SSK is lying.

That was the second time you have introduced this false dilemma. On the off chance MafiaSSK's roleclaim is legitimate, it does not mean I am scum. I have roleclaimed honestly, and explained everything relevant that I know. I think it's very unlikely MafiaSSK is telling the truth, but I cannot say with 100% certainty that he is lying, nor did I imply that I could.

If you have explained everything relevent then SSK is lying about his claim. There is no way that he can not talk to you then suddenly be allowed to talk to Watari, Near and Mello if you die. Also you saying "information does not match up" about his claim says your role information says he is lying.

[LlamaFluff]

I have a Kira Task Force discussion behind the scenes. Each night, I can invite one player to the Kira Task Force, and I can also investigate any existing member of the Task Force and receive his or her complete role PM.

EBWOP: Before anyone points out that I have only had one night to investigate...I have only seen my own role PM and one other player's. Might as well be clear.

Am I being dense or does this not add up?

Each night you can
A) Invite a player and
B) Investigate a current member

Does this mean you can invite and investigate at the same time? What you first said sounds like you cant since they were not a member of the task force to start. I just want to get this clarified a bit. As to me existing =/= joined that night

[LlamaFluff]

Despite all the contradictions, L is very strong claim. I think those on Stepho's list need to

re-think

move

their vote.

Fixed

I would think that if someone else was L they would have counterclaimed by now.

No they wouldnt of, if Steph is lying he is as good as dead. There seem to be 2+ members in his task force, so it would require both of them and his recruit N2 getting killed for him to have no recruits tomorrow. If Steph is lying, countering would be the dumbest thing anyone could do.

Basically I agree that the claim seems overly powerful, and very odd, but we still dont lynch him today, or really ever without some really good reason to do so. The role seems proveable. I dont think I need to explain why you lynch a miller claim over a proveable claim if you think they are both scum, even in a normal game.

Everyone not voting SSK at this point but posting needs to get smart.

[LlamaFluff]

So once I'm lynched and proven town, then you guys will lynch Stephy right?

Now you're setting up lynches too?

Thats not really setting up lynches. Also I think LC not hammering SSK is a slight town tell.

[LlamaFluff]

@magnus: We have a near guaranteed death note hit if we lynch Benmage, and if we don't lynch him, the scum have a high likelyhood of taking it without us knowing. If you hesitate then we lose the chance we have. If absolutely necessary we can switch back to SSK to avoid a No-Lynch, but that should be done only as a LAST RESORT. I'm not giving up a death note to the scum because of people being INDECISIVE!

No time. I dont expect to be able to swing ten votes in 30 hours, especially since scum would try and stall the wagon (why risk lynching and destruction when they can NK?). There is a distinct possibility that what ends up happening if we try and lynch Ben is the wagon starts and stalls/has proveable claim/doesnt build in time and then we cant even lynch SSK.

I am much more for the chance of taking out a note from SSK then from maybe ending up with no dead scum, no note, maybe a NK from SSK, and scum with a note from Ben reagardless of what we did. Worst case scenario weighs heavier then best case scenario, so im not for the Ben quicklynch.

[LlamaFluff]

@mod

- Please prod zwet, MBL, Sera, SirT and millar.

Done.

Votecount
MafiaSSK -9 (Stephoscope, Gorrad, populartajo, Starbuck, LlamaFluff, Kmd4390, magnus_orion, WeyounsLastClone, Benmage)
Starbuck -2 (Vi, ThAdmiral)
Benmage -2 (Kairyuu, MafiaSSK)
Stephoscope -1 (Lamont Cranston)
Lamont - 1 (MrBuddyLee)
LlamaFluff - 1 (Zwetchenwasser)
NoLynch -1 (mykonian)
Not voting: Millar13, Seraphim, Sir Tornado

We still haven't found Mello, but I'm sure that he's somewhere in that building. We've come this far, so use caution when you search for him.

With 20 alive, it's 11 to lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

@SSK - Im going to ramble a bit here, stop me when you no longer agree/follow. You claim miller, which is town aligned. You think Steph is scum since he has information that seems to contridict your role, and would like to see him lynched since you are 100% sure he is scum. You have said that we should lynch him if you flip town. Steph is not going to be lynched today, Ben is not going to be lynched today. You are the only highly feaseable player who can be lynched. Your lynch, in your mind, would mean that Steph will be lynched as scum tomorrow. Is any of this wrong?

[LlamaFluff]

Also do you think Ben is scum or is that self-preservation

[LlamaFluff]

@SSK - Im going to ramble a bit here, stop me when you no longer agree/follow. You claim miller, which is town aligned. You think Steph is scum since he has information that seems to contridict your role, and would like to see him lynched since you are 100% sure he is scum. You have said that we should lynch him if you flip town. Steph is not going to be lynched today, Ben is not going to be lynched today. You are the only highly feaseable player who can be lynched. Your lynch, in your mind, would mean that Steph will be lynched as scum tomorrow. Is any of this wrong?

No. And yes I think Ben is scum for reasons Kai posted

So then you are going to selfvote to prevent no lynch since its the most pro-town thing to do if you are miller?

[LlamaFluff]

@SSK - Im going to ramble a bit here, stop me when you no longer agree/follow. You claim miller, which is town aligned. You think Steph is scum since he has information that seems to contridict your role, and would like to see him lynched since you are 100% sure he is scum. You have said that we should lynch him if you flip town. Steph is not going to be lynched today, Ben is not going to be lynched today. You are the only highly feaseable player who can be lynched. Your lynch, in your mind, would mean that Steph will be lynched as scum tomorrow. Is any of this wrong?

No. And yes I think Ben is scum for reasons Kai posted

So then you are going to selfvote to prevent no lynch since its the most pro-town thing to do if you are miller?

Why is it pro-town?

Because numbers dont lie.

Lets say that you are town, that Steph is scum and that Ben is scum. Also you three are the next three lynches. Now today we try to move wagons, end up with a massive clusterfuck and no lynch. D3 opens with you getting vigged post one. Then we lynch Steph. D4 opens with a Ben vig. Ben has seen two nights, Steph one. Thats up to three town dead.

Now lets say you self vote, and get lynched. D3 opens with a Steph vig, and a Ben lynch. Thats two nights between them. If you are town, and you do belive everything that you said, self voting is the right move. It would save one NK.

Not that this really matters since im pretty sure you are scum, but if you arent, you need to be aware of what your best option truely is.

[LlamaFluff]

@SSK - Im going to ramble a bit here, stop me when you no longer agree/follow. You claim miller, which is town aligned. You think Steph is scum since he has information that seems to contridict your role, and would like to see him lynched since you are 100% sure he is scum. You have said that we should lynch him if you flip town. Steph is not going to be lynched today, Ben is not going to be lynched today. You are the only highly feaseable player who can be lynched. Your lynch, in your mind, would mean that Steph will be lynched as scum tomorrow. Is any of this wrong?

No. And yes I think Ben is scum for reasons Kai posted

So then you are going to selfvote to prevent no lynch since its the most pro-town thing to do if you are miller?

Why is it pro-town?

Because it prevents no lynch?

I like my reasoning better...

[LlamaFluff]

SSK was lying and was the right lynch. I don't understand this shift to Benmage at all, and I doubt I'll be voting for him.

I cant believe im saying this, but I agree with Steph. He would not be the worst lynch possible for the day (in the top few really), but this shift creates a high chance of ending the day in a no lynch. We need to be able to swing a lynch today, and I just dont see the Ben one actually happening.

[LlamaFluff]

SSK was lying and was the right lynch. I don't understand this shift to Benmage at all, and I doubt I'll be voting for him.

I cant believe im saying this, but I agree with Steph. He would not be the worst lynch possible for the day (in the top few really), but this shift creates a high chance of ending the day in a no lynch. We need to be able to swing a lynch today, and I just dont see the Ben one actually happening.

Alternatively, you could stop saying it won't happen and make a push for it.
The SSK wagon went up very quickly, and so did the Stepho wagon. Why not this one?

I also think SSK is more likely scum then Ben, so im not going to push the Ben lynch over the SSK one. What he is getting pushed on is rediculous imo, I would rather have a last minute wagon on starbuck then him.

The SSK wagon was him getting caught in a claim. The Steph wagon had a whole lot of backing to it. The Ben wagon is much more unstable.

Also with that last post LC goes and burns down the town cred he got from not hammering SSK a few pages back

[LlamaFluff]

@Gorrad - The only reason I dont believe this is that SSK doesnt appear to be able to talk to Steph right now.

SSK is still the lynch

[LlamaFluff]

Don't get me wrong, Llama, I don't believe it's the case either. But it /IS/ a possibility.

There are always about a zillion possibilites, some need to be ruled out in order to move forward

And, as the Phoenix Wright games love to teach us, a verdict cannot be given until each and every possibility is ruled out.

Even though I have no clue who that is (this is really the only anime I know somewhat well), thats what im using. Discounting the improbable helps in arriving at the actual. If either SSK or Steph flips town, it would be vig/lynch on site for the other.

[LlamaFluff]

Even though I have no clue who that is (this is really the only anime I know somewhat well), thats what im using. Discounting the improbable helps in arriving at the actual. If either SSK or Steph flips town, it would be vig/lynch on site for the other.

Video Game, not anime.

Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney
it is where my Avatar comes from. (and Gorrad's OBJECTION! bubble)

ehhh... im not big on that type of stuff. Doesnt make SSK town though

Votecount
MafiaSSK -7 (Stephoscope, Gorrad, populartajo, Starbuck, LlamaFluff, WeyounsLastClone, Benmage)
Benmage -5 (Kairyuu, Kmd4390, Vi, magnus_orion, MafiaSSK)
Starbuck -1 (ThAdmiral)
Stephoscope -1 (Lamont Cranston)
Lamont - 1 (MrBuddyLee)
LlamaFluff - 1 (Zwetchenwasser)
NoLynch -1 (mykonian)
Not voting: Millar13, Seraphim, Sir Tornado

Near, Mello didn't escape, you let him get away... Am I right?

With 20 alive, it's 11 to lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

Also, I'm keeping my vote on SSK. I personally make it a habit to claim town until my death sequence as scum, so that no one can try and pry more information out of me. I imagine this is what he was doing.

I'm not that smart. I honestly thought that Kmd had hammered.

As did I. It's rather shady.

Also it's rather shady that you are voting for yourself.

You missed the entire section where I showed SSK that if he is town selfvoting to get a lynch of himself was the most pro-town thing to do if no other lynch was viable didnt you. You should go read that.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote SSK

[LlamaFluff]

Also, I'm keeping my vote on SSK. I personally make it a habit to claim town until my death sequence as scum, so that no one can try and pry more information out of me. I imagine this is what he was doing.

I'm not that smart. I honestly thought that Kmd had hammered.

As did I. It's rather shady.

Also it's rather shady that you are voting for yourself.

You missed the entire section where I showed SSK that if he is town selfvoting to get a lynch of himself was the most pro-town thing to do if no other lynch was viable didnt you. You should go read that.

Yeah you havent read the post. Given what SSK claims and what he believes, it is the best play to have himself lynched over a no lynch. Normally I agree with you, but this is a special scenario.

With everything reset, I would like to draw attention to ABR/Skruffs/millar13 again. ABR started the game with a 'jester' comment, and Skruffs and millar13 have been off the radar.

Vote: millar13

Stop being useless, vote someone who is a lynch possibility

OK, thanks for the clarification. If SSK says I'm lying about that, he's scum, because through means I prefer not to discuss I am 100% certain that group does not currently exist.

Bad move on his part.

Vote: MafiaSSK

Basically what I have been saying for the last 15 pages... but at least we are getting it now.

@SSK - Self vote again please, just under 10 hours to deadline

[LlamaFluff]

@LC - Vote SSK now please. Steph isnt getting lynched unless SSK is proven town.

[LlamaFluff]

Btw, stop lynching SSK. He said he was town after I fakehammered.

It was a really obvious fakehammer though I thought. Also there really is no reason to say "oh well I was scum" ever unless the game was in F3. You always hold out for the hope that someones vote didnt count, deadline has passed, governor, etc.

Also I take it you think that Steph is scum this means?

[LlamaFluff]

Also I take it you think that Steph is scum this means?

No. Is there a direct contradiction in their claims that I am unaware of?

I never, ever said SSK was lying for

certain

.

I know

with 100% certainty

that I am not in a discussion with the specific players he mentions. I also know

with 100% certainty

that

no such group already exists that's waiting for him if I die

.

SSK is Stepho lying here?

Mhm.

According to SSK there is. It also seems like there is a decent probability just given how so much of the wording seems to make people think there are contridictions. There might not be a black/white one there, but its like how you can tell at times when something just isnt right. This is one of those times.

SSK (to you town) is also self-voting in order to prove that there is a contridiction and get who he claims to be scum lynched. Just the sheer guts of that alone reitterates how likely that there is a contridiction here, since if there was any chance of Steph and SSK being town, I would never do that, or even consider it.

Also you can always look at the flavor problem I have of "Why can SSK-Steph not talk if SSK gets to talk to who he can?" to show that something isnt right here (likely in SSKs claim).

[LlamaFluff]

Stepho's claim is provable though. Lynching him before trying that would be stupid.

I know it is. That is why im saying we should lynch SSK since im pretty sure he is lying, and if he happens to be telling the truth, we get to lynch scum who is fakeclaiming a major PR without needing a counter.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote: SSK

for general scumminess

You have not read the game have you?

[LlamaFluff]

SSK is already lynched I think

[LlamaFluff]

I actually think Steph isnt lying, now I need to go do some reading

[LlamaFluff]

Vote LC

Stop being stupid, Steph can be confirmed as L since he is claiming to have recruited two players. Why arent you just asking for someone that is in his group to say "I am in his group" or something to that extent?

[LlamaFluff]

Vote LC

Stop being stupid, Steph can be confirmed as L since he is claiming to have recruited two players. Why arent you just asking for someone that is in his group to say "I am in his group" or something to that extent?

Fluff, he is stupid or scum?

Somewhere in between. Still trying to get a bit of a handle again on the game after finding out SSK is town, Steph sure appears to be town, Vi is scum and MO is scum... every one of those went against my read D2.

I still am pretty sure MBL is town though, and LC basically tunneled on him hardcore on pretty shoddy reasoning for a prolonged period of time, and is trying to get a claimed PR (that can confirm themself if needed) lynched. Its enough of a starting point for today as far as I am concerned.

[LlamaFluff]

From what I understand, LC is being voted against cause he claimed L at the start of the day. Why would he do that? Kairyuu sorta put him in the clear for the moment but I am still confused as too LC's claim. Is it to draw out L or scums who claim L against you?

Huh?

I dont think he has read the game yet.

unvote

Will look at myk when I get back from the office, I see what kai is getting at though I think.

[LlamaFluff]

/eyeroll. We have a dayvig. Myko is lying about the D1 kill, trying to out the real one.

This, myk is obviously not the one doing the day kills.

Speaking of day kills though. So far we have had three kira deaths and one vig kill each cycle. This time however, there only have been two kira kills, and a vig kill. One kill has gone missing.

Now rules of death seem to give three possibilites each night
-Kill
-Destroy
-Pass on

What Kai is getting at seems to be that someone decided to pass on a death note last night. I would rather not string up myk right now just incase its a long delay, but there is a good chance that a note got passed on, and since Myk is the only known anti-town, its the best spot to look for where it has gotten off to.

@Kai - Is this right?

@LC - Actions were not available N0, Steph roleclaim confirms this. If anyone did a N0 action they can counter and condem him that way.

[LlamaFluff]

BE LOGICAL

If I was as convinced as I was that Steph was scum, and now do not think he is scum, you can to. Im stubborn as hell when I think im right too, this isnt "easy" for me to go back on a read that strong. It is a proveable claim, there are steps you are taking that are defying basic logic.

Why havent you...

Asked Steph if there is anyone he recruited...
Asked someone to claim communication to Steph...

The thing is that this can really be proved by Steph if he wants it to. He claims there was someone in his group to start and has been recruiting. Unless those three+ people are dead, this is very proveable. Also if he is lying, the real L probably is just waiting untill they can counter and almost break the game by clearing/condeming five or so people.

I need to read a few people, then I should be ready to make a move.

[LlamaFluff]

@Gorrad - Is that for being pro-kira or currently being kira?
@Zwet - Fullclaim, im assuming you are Shoko Maki though? Results too.

I need to reread zwet, weigh that against myk, and then look at a few other things.

[LlamaFluff]

And full name/role claim. I just want to be sure you are really Maki

[LlamaFluff]

And full name/role claim. I just want to be sure you are really Maki

Why are you prompting him with the name he's supposed to claim?

Because im pretty sure he claimed it earlier when he did the claim/take back thing

[LlamaFluff]

@zwet

What did semi say to you N1?
Why havent you claimed results?

[LlamaFluff]

Ok, now answer the rest of the questions

[LlamaFluff]

What does no result mean? What specifically did you get back?

[LlamaFluff]

I see no reason to disbelieve the thing about SPK, but it doesn't confirm zwet's alignment at all.

zwet, claim your results.

no result night 1, I forgot to send an action n2, and no result n3

. I didn't get a PM at all in response to either of my actions, so I'm assuming something happened both nights.

There were only two nights

. Also, you forgot to claim your targets.

Hahaha I cant believe I missed that

unvote
vote zwet

[LlamaFluff]

Im not buying this crap.

Also, if zwet is scum as I strongly suspect, Fluff is scum with him.

You heard it here first.

I got myself confused. It happens.

But you got it wrong twice... wouldnt you of checked the first time?

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

[LlamaFluff]

I basically am near agreement with kai right here.

There is a kill missing from what we have normally had, and this suggests that a note has changed hands sometime last night. Normal is three note kills and the vig kill. Today we had two note kills and a vig kill.

A note must have moved during the night to have one less kill, the expected place for this note to move is to myk, since he is the only anti-town that is guarenteed to exist, the only one that is a for sure safe spot. This means that there should be one note with myk.

Now we also had a vig kill of light today. I would expect that he was holding one of the three notes. Now there was no reveal for the note getting destroyed, which suggests that the player doing the day kills is also anti-town, it wouldnt really be a shock for it to be a second third party in Mello. A lynch of myk without a note dropping suggests the vig being third party as well, although any scum on a myk wagon could cause this to appear.

Vote Myk

Reading what Kai posted it might of just been more to the point to just quote him and say "this"

[LlamaFluff]

No, bad topic of conversation.

I need to read Vi in iso here sometime soon. Its looking to be a slow day in the office so I should have the time.

[LlamaFluff]

Im torn between a Starbuck and Tajo vote right now... its a friends last day at work today and we are going to have a mini party after we all get off, so I wont get a post in today, tomorrow though I should have time to come to a conclusion though.

Regarding zwets claim/play, the only part of it that has me at all guessing about his alignment is a one way lover. IIRC mastins character didnt want zwet getting into the case due to the danger, then when mastin died zwet went into vendetta mode and got into the case. I wouldnt expect lover to be a part of either role, or at least swing both ways

[LlamaFluff]

Did a quick read of recent stuff, found im leaning in a direction now

Vote Tajo

I can get a case up either late friday or midday saturday

[LlamaFluff]

Day one stuff up! Other stuff should be up tonight if my computer isnt being wierd again.

This resoning progress doesnt feel right. In the first two posts, zwet is pretty much sure of his claim. But when asked, he quickly backs it off. Now, if he fakeclaimed he did it for a reason (Medieval Mafia is an example of this) but which is the reason here when he backs it off when he gets a little pressure_? It just doesnt feel zwettown.

When responding to the zwet claim, he doesnt believe it because it "doesnt match his meta". So tajo is trying to kill off the claim given that it doesnt match a meta of zwet, there is nothing about the claim, flavor, or proveability (which is now proven) shown. What is the town zwet fakeclaim meta?

Well popul, do you think i'm scum or not?

leaning scum for that terrible vote, i just dont find any protown motivation for voting Zazier.

do you think she is scum?

I dont like this abandonment of the myk wagon for the one bad vote by ben. It shows that he did not like the strength of the myk wagon, or was looking for an easy way off it. Maybe given that "wagon for the sake of progress" was the biggest factor I can find in the move to myk in the first place, but if he is playing for progress, this is a big step back.

Day one tajo really didnt just do anything much memorable. He was behind early, then just started making moves that were primarily ones that were based on game pace, instead of what his reads were. Saying that myk was decent, but myk was getting better.

[LlamaFluff]

I support the Lammont wagon.

Havent liked him since day 1 and his Mastin hate, still hasnt done anything that makes me think he is town. His MBL case is forced as hell.

Vote: Lammont.

Also magnus is obvtown as I suspected. I like so far Vi. I still hate some of KMD but its mostly gut. Fluff case against Steph feels good but I need to check some things first.

I think this entire post is wrong reads. LC is investigated "99% town", Steph is town, I think kmd is town. MO is scum, Vi is scum. He sets up on LC, while accepting my case on Steph at the same time. Interestingly enough I think while LC was going into flame out mode, Steph looked a whole lot scummier building up to that point.

What doesn't fit is Aiber is supposed to be

helping

the cops? Does a miller with no power sound like a role that is helping the cops to you? Also Orto deliberately stalled in N0 and came in saying, "Whoops, I forgot".

His miller claim only halfway fits the flavor. That's why I'm still voting for him and am calling for the hammer.

Fine. I'll reveal the rest of the role. If L dies then I can talk to Near,Mello and Watari.

So now that your claim has been attacked for flavorless, do you come up with a reason to fit it with the flavor?

Also, did you even answer to the question I asked about why you didnt say it was random since the beginning?

How much flavor do you remember from DN? IIRC you have claimed to of seen it before.

Anyways, it seems that you are saying that the reason you do not believe the claim was that he did not claim the random part right out of the gate. Why is this the straw that breaks the camels back for you regarding this claim?

~End day~

Yey, somebody else is going to support my zwet hate.

Unvote Vote: zwet.

Gorrad, why didnt you tell us about your investigation before?

This is where tajo starts going downhill to me. Zwet has claimed, he has a role that can be proven by results, if he is scum he is going to get busted really quickly over it. Also I somewhat doubt that tracker-scum would be given a fakeclaim as good as he came up with there. I just do not like a zwet lynch at all.

Also he immediately starts trying to undercut the investigation on LC who he was looking to lynch, even when if you read the claim from Gorrad, there is no reason to question it.

And full name/role claim. I just want to be sure you are really Maki

Why are you prompting him with the name he's supposed to claim?

Because im pretty sure he claimed it earlier when he did the claim/take back thing

Im pretty sure Fluff would have checked zwet isos before posting this.

Yeah go back and read what happened. I laid out a claim for him that was NOT what he claimed right off the bat. What I gave was the alias that his character used in the anime to mess with light. If he would of just trusted me on it, or done a too brief check online for the name and used it, caught scum right there.

Ftr, Im pretty lost in this game with the only exception of my zwet read. Im catching up tonight.

Well zwet is proven tracker at this point. There is no way he could of got that result without being a tracker. Basically I am positive zwet is a tracker, and really sure that he is town too. So far I havent read him wrong in a game (although I have not seen scum-zwet).

The fact that all you have done D3 is push zwet who has confirmed his role, and tried to cut down a cop investigation on another player. Both of those lynches just seem to be on town players to me, and the fact that you arent really commenting on anything else that is going on is somewhat concerning to me.

[LlamaFluff]

Could of sworn I voted already...

vote Tajo

[LlamaFluff]

Actually looking at rules, it looks like we had 17 days for today, and that makes deadline in about 54 hours. So its time to get posting here.

@Mod

- Mass prod please (you also missed myks vote in 3508)

[LlamaFluff]

"Nothing proves you fake claiming yet" is not a reason to unvote.

Doubly so when he wasnt even voting Tajo to start. This warrents a bit of an explaination

@Tajo - Is the information anything that can clear a role later or prove your role through someone else? If it is im pretty sure its worth claiming at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

Why do you know theme wise of a living rolename with a note?

[LlamaFluff]

Vote: Populartajo

Unless I'm VERY mistaken, Sayu sees Misa once, MAYBE twice in the entire series. It doesn't make sense to me.

Im basically in this same mindset. The contact between Sayu and Misa is so minimal in the series, it can practically be ignored. I would more expect Sayu to have some information about Light, but even that contact was downplayed.

Also I dont get how you thought "Misa is anti-town" was something that town would not assume. I would of wanted to lynch a "Misa with no note" claim if we had one and never heard your claim first.

Deadline in under 36 hours, lets go people

populartajo -6 (mykonian, Llamafluff, Kairyuu, Knight of Cydonia, Starbuck, Gorrad)
Kairyuu -1 (xylthixlm, WeyounsLastClone)
DeathNote-1 (MrBuddyLee)
Kmd4390 - 1 (populartajo)
Not voting: Kmd4390, zwetchenwasser, Stephoscope, DeathNote, Lamont_Cranston

I'm in no mood for love at the moment.

With 15 alive, it's 8 to lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

My point was to prove him scum or town.

I would just wait for him to explain it. There is no way that you can come up with a braile breadcrumb that depending on where you put spaces can change from a scum to town crumb. If he made on of those just give him some award for it now and lets call it quits.

My vote is where it needs to be, I think deadline is in ~14 hours.

[LlamaFluff]

Four hours....

[LlamaFluff]

vote llama

go go no lynch

[LlamaFluff]

Dear Sidoh

Hello there. I know who you are. I know your win condition. I know your spiffy little triple ability thing too. What you probably know, is that I can literally give you a win in this game. If you are playing the odds, even ideal play for the rest of the game will give you less then a 50% win chance.

I am offering you this. Help me out, I know you likely know quite a lot at this point, so should have an idea about the best way to go about this. If you help me get to my win condition, I will help you achieve yours

Love

Rem

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
vote Deathnote

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
vote Starbuck

In the event that I no longer have my note, and it went to someone else. Use it to kill Gorrad tonight.
Sidoh - Do NOT use your triple ability tonight.

good luck

[LlamaFluff]

Reitterating that Sidoh should not use their ability tonight

[LlamaFluff]

one more thing...

I have been running numbers

@Sidoh

There is a forced win for pro-kira and you if tonight you just sit back and relax. Dont do anything to mess it up please.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama - why did you not want me to use my triple ability? My target last night would have been Xyl.

If you had killed me, Llama would have died, and then there wouldn't have been four people to force nolynch. (Well, if the game hadn't ended due to bastard moddery first.)

Right. Our plan was:

D6 - Misa, Rem, Sidoh, Teru vote no lynch, day ends
N6 - Xyl and I kill two town, Teru passes his note to Sidoh
D7 - Two town down, Sidoh leaves, lynch Teru, venges last town, game over

Im a little pissed that Xyl didnt win, since after I got investigated he played a very strong game, especially with the bluff surrounding the DN lynch. There is little doubt that he was more responseable for the pro-Kira win then most of the pro-kira players, especially if you take late game things into effect.

I liked the setup, just the fact that the Misa win con changed to the extent that it was suddenly one that almost needed to kill all pro-kira and pro-town in a certain order is a bit cheap. SK is hard enough to win even with what was basically a one shot BP and two kills a night.

One thing I have to wonder a bit is, did anyone in the least bit connect the lion kill with me. It was done more around the time I was considering if zee got in trouble I could claim in such a way that I can get a mislynch on me before a zee lynch taking me out, wasting three town lynches.

[LlamaFluff]

For the record, the trick with the false quickhammer attempt was my idea.

This is true

The misa-rem thing was more ran by me untill the tajo lynch where after that Xyl took over and I just lurked since I couldnt really do anything in thread.

[LlamaFluff]

I also nomed Xyl for best performance in a losing cause and best replacement.

Someone should go second those

[LlamaFluff]

Sorry if this was already answered in that huge post, but what were my percentages based on?

Mod Notes: Receives 7% on investigators, 40% on other protown players, 90% on Shinigami, 100% on pro-Kira townies, 100% on those allied with Kira, and 100% on Light Yagami.

...I think you were one of the strongest cops