The Manor: Chzo Mafia (Game Over!)

[Setael]

Hi.

read thread

[Setael]

Finished the thread. I think Lamont is town. None of the arguments against him hold any weight imo, especially the devil sign thing. It's weird that Stephoscope won't just agree to drop it and start scum hunting, in which case Lamont said he wouldn't use it anymore. Also, in my experience, scum is careful not to say things like “If I didn't know you were town (even before it was revealed by the Mod)” - draws too much negative attention.

Devestation is my #1 scum candidate, with Stephoscope #2. Pretty sure they're scum buddies.

Devestation's Lamont vote looks really opportunistic (727), just hiding behind hohum's attack and jumping on the wagon. Then, with his vote still on lamont, he makes the following post:

Okay judging by your information about the shell on this page Lamont I would say that you've gone and picked up a timebomb (sulphur was used in early chinese explosives) and it's going to explode and kill you soonish unless you give it away, thereby exploding and killing the recipient. But no pressure

If Devestation really thinks lamont is scum and is voting him, why does he 1) believe what lamont is saying about the shell and 2) think he should give it away?

He then unvoted, not because he doesn't think he's scum (supposedly) but because he believes what lamont's saying about the shell and believes it's going to kill him anyway, so it's a wasted vote.

Seems to me that Devestation never thought lamont was scum. He knows he's town and therefore knows he's telling the truth about the shell. My guess is he unvoted to get off a townie wagon in order to avoid future suspicion.

As for Stephoscope, he's playing with the kind of self-awareness usually seen only in scum. He's very careful of what he says, and has made statements like:

I made sure to credit Amished for the catch.

if I were trying to get away with something, I would not have announced it and then have suspicions such as yours come up.

I think they're scum buddies due to stephoscope's attack of lamont's reaction to the drink and totally ignoring devestation's much more blatant desire to not drink it.

Well, let the record show you're absolutely terrified of that drink.

But I would still support forcing it on terrified Lamont, with majority's approval

... and yet says nothing about Devestation even though he has said:

because of my hard line anti use thingy. Didnt yo mamma ever tell you to not drink anything that someone else gave to you... nobody knows what the mod mightve put in there

and besides, at last check I didn't think it was the best idea to consume the thing AT ALL.

Let me put it this way, Amished. If hohum got a Devestation on the random result, you'd have to tie me down before I'd drink it.

Anyone who uses or suggests the use of any items on anyone, regardless of their scumminess or method of selection, is making themselves look scummy in mye eyes.

I'm a hardline conservative, Lamont. If I don't know what it does, I won't touch it

To be honest, I don't want to even get one of those items in the first place.

Really suspicious that Steph never confronted devestation, considering her reaction to lamont's statement about not wanting to drink it.

In fact, she totally ignores him the entire game. The only time she says anything about or to him is this:

The mod is away, and we haven't yet heard from the backup mod.

I agree we should be careful with voting until we understand what the drink did. I for one will not be casting any vote until we find out what the effects were, or when it becomes very clear that we're not going to.

I think they're avoiding each other because they're scum buddies. Distancing and what not.

vote: Devestation

I'm certainly also willing to vote Steph, but I'd rather shine a spotlight on Devestation.

I know the deadline is looming, but I think both the main wagons right now are townies. Devestation or Stephoscope should be today's lynch.

[Setael]

I'm guessing you just looked at my vote without reading my post. I think I was clear with my reasoning.

[Setael]

Though I still think Devestation is scum, it appears he will have to wait for another day.

unvote, vote: Stephoscope

[Setael]

Whoa whoa whoa, Naomi's claim is really weird. She says she's NK immune and when asked outright if that's all she says yes:

Trilby is the protagonist in 3? of the 4 games. So he's very much so a main pro-town character just out of the theme.

@Naomi: You're only NK-proof? That's all?

Correct Amished

So then Naomi says to Amished "So you're saying you expected a cop like role as well?" and then POOF! magically she has a cop like role as well and says she's Bulletproof/1-shot cop.

That sequence of posts really looked like Amished feeding her a fake claim. Not sure what to think. Seems like a player like her who is new enough to not know what it means to claim would just full claim outright rather than half claiming and then adding more later... it's really scummy. And how do you say "It goes without saying" when you just asked Amished if he expected Trilby to have a cop role. I don't know what to think. I think Steph is right. Either that or Naomi is super newb who just made the weirdest scummiest claim ever... :/

I'll be back before deadline. I want to think about this.

[Setael]

The only thing I can think of is she's SO new that she really did think NK immune might always be a 1-shot cop..... ?

Anyone have any insight on Naomi's history? Is this her first game beyond newbie games?

Even if that was the case, it still doesn't explain her saying basically "Oh, you thought Trilby would have a cop ability. Well, yeah, I know I said I was NK immune and nothing else but I actually do have a cop ability."

Also, I doubt that both Amished and Naomi's claims are true. 2 unNKable roles are unlikely- too town powered. Obviously, unNKable is the ideal scum claim since it explains why their power role isn't being offed by scum night after night... I think one of them is lying. Trilby very well could have been given to scum as a safe claim. with all the items and the mod wanting us to think etc. etc. I really doubt there will be no funny business with the names.

My only hesitation is the exact reason why it's smart for scum to claim something like this, if Naomi is scum. On the off chance that she really is a NK immune 1-shot cop, I'm not willing to risk it. Maybe she's just new enough to not realize how upfront power roles need to be with claims, and she didn't understand her role well enough to fully claim. That's all I'm coming up with.

As an aside, if you are town Naomi you really sucked it up with this claim. In the future, claim fully once you are one vote away from being lynched. If you are scum, then my bet is you were given Trilby as a fake claim. Sounds stacked against the town, but yet supposedly we have a super overpowered doc so I guess it's evened out.

One thing is for sure, we need Naomi to talk more. Answer these questions, please:

1) What made you think it would be assumed that your role included a 1-shot cop?

2) When asked directly if your only ability was NK immune, why did you say yes when you are supposedly a 1-shot cop as well?

3) How many mafia games have you played?

4) Have you ever played a game that had a NK immune role, and did that person have a 1-shot cop ability? Please reference the game unless it is ongoing.


Amished, I have a question for you, too. When you first claimed, why didn't you mention that your role enables you to avoid being blocked by town power roles? the way you tacked it on after really made it sound like you made it up...

Also, I feel that the town should have a say in your night action in order to at least attempt to confirm your claim. Assuming no other Trilby claims, and if Naomi is not lynched today, my vote would be for you to protect her so she can get her 1-shot in. If you are unsuccessful, we'll know that either you were lying or the mafia stopped you somehow.

I'm sticking with my steph vote for now just in case the weirdness of naomi's claim is due solely to newbness. And frankly, though I really don't want a D1 no lynch, I'm less worried about it in this game than I would be in other games where we don't have items taking out players at a steady pace.

[Setael]

Simulpost.

How can this be her first and only game? Isn't it REQUIRED to be in a newbie game first here?

Doesn't explain her posts if she thought characteristics and abilities were separate. doesn't explain her statement that she thought it would be assumed that she'd be a 1-shot cop.

[Setael]

Amished, do you have any other info/insights about the trilby clone? Any chance naomi is that clone?

That aside, knowing this is her first game makes it easier to believe her claim. If she isn't lynched today I think she should be replaced. There's a good reason for the "must first play a newbie game" rule. It tips the scales toward the scum to have one of our power roles totally inexperienced in a game this compex.

I think everyone should unvote naomi. At least let her get her 1-shot in tonight in case she's telling the truth. We can always disrgard it if she flips scum, but if she doesn't we stupidly wasted it. Also, I doubt she's our only investigative role.

Keeping my vote on steph.

[Setael]

I also find it odd that she zeroed in on lamont's hesitation to drink hohum's drink when others were even more vocally against it (namely devestation).

[Setael]

Questions for Lamont:

Was your post restriction (only being able to vote and say ARGH) given to you by the mod or did you fabricate that?

Depending on the answer, I have a lot more questions.

@Everyone who is voting to vig Naomi - do you not believe Amished when he says he has protected her for today and a vig of her would not work?

As bad as Naomi's claim was, there is a chance it was due to her being a newbie rather than being scum. I am still undecided about her. She certainly needs to be posting more.

@Naomi: Who did you investigate last night and what was the result? Also, why are you in this game if you have not completed a newbie game?

Frankly, if this really is her very first game ever, I think she should be replaced rather than vigged or lynched. If she really is Trilby and just screwed up her claim due to newbishness, it is quite unfair for the town.

[Setael]

@amished- why is naomi protected from a vig kill but not a lynch?

I think Devestation and naomi are both scum. Happy to see either of them die today.

Can I ask... A few people have mentioned bastard moddery- were those all jokes or was there a statement at some point that this is a planned aspect of this game? Does it make sense to ppl that KoC would give such an important role to someone who has never played before and has no idea what they're doing?

I also think Devastation should be vigged. I agree that it is pointless to determine lynch vote until after the vig.

[Setael]

@amished - I'm still confused. If you protected naomi from day kill today how does that apply to a day vig but not a lynch?

I also don't understand what you're saying about Nyx. Do you send in protects during the day or just at night?

[Setael]

"this guy" needs to answer my question on page 51.

is "this guy" me? that's a first...

So your question was this I take it:

Setael: Why say I should be vigged without placing a vig-vote thingy? It's not particularly suspicious to me, but why anyway?

First, if it's not suspicious, why ask about it?
Second, if it wasn't suspicious in the first place, why point back at it when I don't answer it?
Third, is there some rule I don't know about that you have to place a "vig-vote thingy?"

New addition? I protect at night and that protection lasts until the start of the next night. No effect on lynches, but kills from maf, vig, sk, other (items) are prevented.

Something is wrong with your claim. If the protection lasts until the start of the next night, how does it not apply to lynches, which happen BEFORE the next night starts.

Also, has anyone ever heard of a dr. that protects themself as well as a multitude of other people? Especially without a scum roleblocker? How is that balanced?

I'm not saying start a wagon on Amished. I'm just saying his claim is fishy and I'm not considering him confirmed town by any means.

[Setael]

Everyone please go to p. 47 and read Post 1174, especially the last paragraph where he explains why the scum "don't have a roleblocker".

Did you really forget you said that, amished? If you're town, you're playing really sloppily. If you're scum, you're lucky you've been blessed with such a naive town.

I'm actually glad you did it though since it outer pablo as obv scum. Amished is possibly just dense, sloppy town but pablo's quickness to jump on the wagon at the first chance, and hiding behind amished's "catch" is about as scummy as they come.

I still think dev is scum (an I reserve the right to say who I want to be vigged for AS LONG AS I CHOOSE before actually placing a big vote. This is partially to guage reactions before making a final decision and I find it scummy that anyone would try to throw suspicion on me for it, especially in he laissez fairs way dev did).

My current #1 choice for the vig kill is pablo.

[Setael]

EBWOP *vig vote not big vote and *the not *he there at the end

Stupid phone auto correct

[Setael]

@devestation: yes I did. But I'll spell it out for you since somehow you missed it. I did not make an official vig vote because, though I had a top candidate, I had not entirely made up my mind. I will vote when I choose, not because you think I should.

That whole thing just looks like a crappy excuse to vote me. Pretty much creating a baseless reason to jump on this entirely unfounded bandwagon.

@amished: you're making no sense. You pointed out that because you and naomi both survived and hohom was given an extra day, there's no way the scum have a role blocker. Makes perfect sense and is the reason I think there is no scum role blocker. It's laughable that anyone (especially you) would try to paint my statement as scummy after being fine with (or in your case, making) your post 1174.

After reading him in iso I'm ready to

vig vote pablo

.

[Setael]

Can you give a little more reasoning for having me as your 2nd scummiest player? "lol roleblock" is not much of a reason, especially if you're aware that amished said the scum don't have a roleblocker (based on solid reasoning) and that is what I was referring to with my statement.

Frankly, anyone who would use such a weak reason has to be scum struggling to fabricate suspicion on players they know are protown. (I'm looking at pablo and sironigous). I'd be happy to see either of them vigged.) I could definitely see then as scum partners. Sironi didn't even mention pablo in that last post.

[Setael]

@xtoxm: what are you talking about? What does it even mean to be "prestigious" on this site? Very few people in this game have played with me before, so I certainly wouldn't say I'm prestigious to anyone here.

My point is that I have refuted the argument that my statement that there is no scum roleblocker was scummy. It has absolutely no merit. Anyone who thinks it's scummy should have taken issue with amished for saying it long before I did. And why didn't anyone? Because his reason for saying it made perfect sense. For this to be sironi's only reason for putting me so high in his scum list is absolutely ridiculous. Granted, he could just be a townie that's REALLY not paying attention and therefore has no read on anyone and grasps at something that has been shown to be baseless. More likely, though; he's scum who is having a hard time coming up with reason to be suspicious of players he knows are town.

[Setael]

For all the reasons you just listed, he obviously wasn't talking about naomi.

The claimed powerrole being spoken of there is Amished's. Does it really make sense that a protown multiprotect doc would not be roleblocked by scum if they had the ability? Either Amished successfully protected naomi (and therefore wasn't blocked) or he's not the reason Naomi was granted an extra day.

Either the scum have no roleblocker or Amished is not really a doc. It's as simple as that. My argument was/is that a doc this overpowered + no scum roleblocker = imbalanced game.

I see where you're coming from, Xtoxm. The more sironi talks the more I think it really is possible he's just not paying attention. Or not too bright.

@Sironi: Who is this in reference to?

On that note, you are defending everyone else (without reason may I add) I said I thought was scummy.

You cannot make statements like this without explaining it.

Pablo remains my #1 vig choice.

[Setael]

Hi Elmo!

This game is just laughable.

The votes are piling on me because supposedly I'm trying to get Amished killed - is that it? You folks need to learn how to read. I do find his claim suspicious, but I certainly do not think he should be killed. I would not vote him or vote to vig him today, and I would be suspicious of anyone who did. I do, however, think his claim is overpowered if there is no scum roleblocker which HE SAID. Not me.

@Lamont: Please quote anywhere in this thread where I have advocated lynching or vigging Amished. IF you can find it, then your vote is justified.

@Pablo: If you are town, you need to reread the thread (especially Amished's post where he says there is no scum RB and my post that you found so suspicious). If you're scum, carry on as usual.

@Pyro: Any reason for voting me, or just hoping for a quick mislynch?

[Setael]

Lamont's post 1517 reads VERY much like he knows I'm town. And yet his vig vote is on me. And why, exactly? Hiding behind poor reasons made by others that never held water in the first place. The only reason he escaped a lynch yesterday was lying to the town. I think he's scum.

unvote, vote: Lamont

vig vote: Lamont

if I'm vigged today, please take a closer look at Lamont. Just because he got a day vig item does not make him town.

[Setael]

@Lamont: yeah, you're "giving" the vig kill to the town. And.... assuming you're scum, what would you do with it? Kill someone in broad daylight without conferring with anyone? And the negative attention you'd get after killing a townie... scum would seek that?

You are seeking town points for doing something you would do whether you were town or scum. You are not "probably" town for trying to win town points by seeking votes on who should be vigged. It actually feels like you've been steering the vig vote, especially with your baseless vote on me. I have no doubt but that you, if indeed you are scum, could easily keep from vigging a scum buddy.

Yes, I avoided this game. I did my best to explain why my assumption that there's no scum roleblocker makes PERFECT sense (and was actually amished's point) and regardless the vig votes stayed on me. Whether those who want me vigged are scum or dense town, I was annoyed that those who ARE town aligned (unlikely they're ALL scum) were ignoring what seems to me so clear cut and obvious.

I think Lamont is scum with either Pablo or sironi but not both, and I'd bet the rest of their scum team is avoiding me entirely.

[Setael]

@Zwet and Devestation and anyone else who accused me of OMGUS:

You need to look up the definition of OMGUS. I have good reason to be suspicious of lamont. Just because everyone is ignoring my points on him does not make them go away.

In less words for those of you who seem to ignore my entire posts: Lamont is seeking town points for doing something he would do whether he were town or scum.

Any townies on my vig wagon please reread today's posts. You either haven't been reading carefully or you're misunderstanding something.

[Setael]

Zwet, what "case" are you talking about? I don't think you know. Also, can you please detail why I'm your #1 scum choice? Your vote looks really opportunistic. If I'm vigged, when I flip town you're going to look really scummy for pushing for my vig without giving much reason and I'd hate for that to happen if you're a townie.

Lamont, you're still ignoring my argument that everything you've done you would've also done if you were scum. I still think your statement that it's my own fault if I get vigged really looked like you think I'm town.

There are no arguments against me that hold any water. No one had a problem with amished saying all signs point to no scum RB. So why is it all of a sudden scummy for me to say it? Sure, maybe there really is a multiple protect doc in a game with no scum rb. Because it's possible, I'm not nor did I ever advocate a wagon on amished.

I agree that the vig needs to be used so the game can move on. It's a huge mistake to waste it on me, but it would at least provide info for the town. hopefully people will stop assuming Lamont is auto town for getting a vig item when the same thing wouldve happens if he's scum. I think it will also get people to take a closer look at the others on my wagon (especially sironi and zwet) whose reasons for wanting me vigged are practically nonexistent and reek of opportunism.

Also, Lamont I can't figure out what question you're saying I didn't answer. Can you state it here please? Don't just give a quite number - I mafia from my phone and it's not easy to look up old posts.

[Setael]

His case against Lamont is ridiculously weak and he's given no decent defense for the scummier actions he's been attributed.

First, her.

Second, if this is true I apologize to the town for being an easy mis-vig. I feel that I have defended against everything anyone brought up and don't really know what else I could have or can say.

I certainly agree that Amished should not be vigged or lynched. My sole argument is and always was that his role seems overpowered if there is no scum RB.

I don't really feel like there's anything I can do to stop this vig. It's based on misunderstandings and nonsensical drivel. Though I'd much prefer scum get vigged, I do think a lot of info will be gleaned once I flip town so if we're going to vig a townie, it may as well be me.

[Setael]

@Setael: Do you see here how you could be falling into a scum trap by thinking this way? On the other hand, if you are correct, how do we explain Ho living an extra day??

That's the question you keep referring to? No wonder I didn't notice it. The first one is a rhetorical question, right? If not, the answer is no, obviously.

The second part I have answered a million times. I believe Amished is the reason Ho lived an extra day. If I didn't, why would I have agreed with him that there is likely no scum RB? Yes, I am wary of his claim. Yes, I believe that he protected himself and naomi and hohum and whoever else. Yes, I think it's weird that such a powerful doc exists in a game with no scum RB.

[Setael]

Ok I see where you're coming from. All I can tell you is that it's perfectly reasonable for a townie to also be unsure of amished's claim. I hadn't thought of the possibility of scum choosing to not RB amished. It still seems really far fetched actually. If the scum have a RB why not just block the claimed doc and kill him? I think the bottom line is that if I had amished's role I would not claim unless my hammer was imminent because I would assume if my role was that powerful there's a scum RB to offset it.

I do not have another explanation for hohum's being given another day, so I am certainly not advocating amished's lynch. Maybe it's balanced just because amished's role gets weaker with time.

I also think scum would have actually pushed for an amished lynch today whereas I never would have. I would have been suspicious of anyone who did. I did and still do think it's unwise to not question a claim that seems to throw off game balance. That's how we end up losing at end game because of incorrect assumptions.

As for your nosiness in my personal life, all you need to know us that when I replaced in I had access to a computer and I am now only to check the thread from my phone.

[Setael]

Lamont's play the last few pages has changed my mind. I still don't think he should be considered obv town for giving the vig to town (as scum in that situation might do the exact same thing). However, I think if he was scum he'd have pushed my vig wagon through. He could easily have ignored my attempts to explain my reasoning as so many others were but didn't. I also appreciated popular's iso of me. Same goes for him - can't see a scum motivation to derail my wagon.

unvote

I can support a devestation vig. I agree with popular's post about him. His neglect to vote yesterday after saying he would choose between the 2 is reason in itself.

vigvote: devestation

@steph: why the decrease in activity? Elmo's right - we've been ignoring you today because you're not here. I still think you & might be scum buddies and I'm not surprised he wouldn't vote you.

[Setael]

@zazier - I was voting the person who was #1 on my scum list. I was not taking into account wagon sizes. My suspicion of steph relied heavily on dev being scum and them being buddies. I'm not sure I was right. I certainly think steph should be more active. Tough to have any kind of read when he's not around much.

I guess it's possible dev's self-voting is exasperated town, but it feels more like scum trying to derail his vig wagon. My vote stays.

[Setael]

2 reasons I'm not getting behind the Stepho wagon:

1- the presence of a counter wagon that might succeed actually makes me feel better about vigging dev. I would expect scum to fight it, so if it was too easy I'd be worried. Elmo we know is town but if dev flips scum zaz, pyro and xtoxm will need to be looked at. I think scum would feel comfortable about this since dev's wagon derails MY wagon so if they're accused they can point to my wagon as a sort of alibi.

2- steph's post that she thinks I'm town at a crucial point. Scum would have had no reason not to weigh in against me at that point and she wouldn't have been suspect when I flipped town. Basically, same reason I changed my mind about Lamont.

[Setael]

@zaz - I feel like you're not reading my posts. My suspicion of steph almost entirely relies on dev being scum, so of course I'd prefer a dev vig.

Someone pointed out recently that amished might have been lying about the pms with the mod. I know I might get heat for this but I want to say that I still think it's really weird that he is able to day protect someone but that doesn't protect them from a lynch. Has anyone ever seen that? I'm NOT saying he should be wagoned. I just still don't understand his role. And where is he anyway?

[Setael]

Also, I already said this too but dev's vig will reveal a lot about both those who moved from mw to dev and those who moved from dev to steph

[Setael]

Please share your reasons for saying I'm scum. I don't really see where you gave a reason to want to vig me in the first place.

[Setael]

Couldn't one of the 2 killing faction be an SK?

@pyro - your post telling dev to unvote is weird. If you're protown, wouldn't you want scum to do something that hurts scum?

I'm feeling a dev vig much more than a stepho vig, but I agree with Tajo that either will provide good info. Stepho's defense in face of a vig wagon has been much more townie than dev's. She could just be acting, but at least she's not just hiding like dev is.

[Setael]

I agree that runnin nyx up is not the most protown thing to do right now. I don't blame Lamont for being anxious though with the deadline looming. What we need to do is start discussing the lynch. I will likely be one of the two main wagons so everyone will post who their top lynch choice will be depending on the alignment of who's vigged.

@ zazie: even if they're scum buddies we'd learn a lot. Those who stayed on me rather than joining either wagon will end up looking pretty bad if they're both scum, wouldn't you say?

[Setael]

One thing Steph's claim makes clear is that Naomi is town. Either Steph is telling the truth and Naomi's claim is true, or Steph is scum who knows Naomi is telling the truth about her claim and is therefore using this to "confirm" himself.

Steph certainly shouldn't be killed today just in case he's telling the truth. He should be allowed at least one more night's investigation and Naomi should use her investigation tonight to. Those who were planning on a Naomi wagon need to decide on a new lynch candidate.

mod: is Amished being replaced?

[Setael]

In my opinion, only scum would push for a Stepho vig right now. Yes, there's a chance he's lying. Only scum know for sure if he is or not. However, if he's telling the truth and we vig him we have lost a key power role. No townie will be sure enough he is lying to push his vig through.

FOS: zazier and xtoxm

@Stepho - is there anything in your role pm that indicates your power will diminish at any point like amished claimed his will? Also, once amished claimed yesterday, why didn't you claim (especially when it looked like you might be the deadline lynch)?

[Setael]

@zazie: For example, if stepho came up scum, those who moved the wagon from dev to him look really town. If stepho came up town, those who moved the wagon from dev look scummy. If both dev and stepho were scum, those who stayed on me and avoided both wagons might look bad. It's not rocket science so i'm not sure why you're insisting I spell it out. I think info could've been gleaned from anyone's vig.

Except Nyx's


I agree with Rock's last post.

unvote, vote: Dramonic

[Setael]

P.S. Either EVERYONE has a copy of the vanilla role, or far too many people are outing themselves as obv vanilla. It would be wise for this to stop, as it is helpful only to scum.

[Setael]

Please explain why you didn't FoS when Naomi got voted for lying about her claim, but did FoS when me and Tox are saying that Stepho is lying?

Though it is now nearly certain that she was telling the truth, it was the worst, scummiest-looking claim ever and I wasn't FOSing ppl for voting her because I was very suspicious of her claim as well.

@Naomi: Use your 1-shot tonight. If Amished is telling the truth, his multi-protect won't last forever. You should have used it last night. I'm very aggravated with both your lack of experience and your lack of activity. Due to stepho's claim you are confirmed town imo and you MUST investigate someone tonight. DO NOT investigate Elmo as he is already confirmed town. Anyone else would be fine I think, just use it tonight.

We need to be sure Amished's replacement is caught up before this day ends. The replacement cannot have any excuse to not protect Naomi and Stepho tonight. If either of them die, imo Amished was lying about his claim.

[Setael]

I'll be V/LA for the holiday weekend. Back Monday.

[Setael]

Ok I'm back. I think Dramonic is scum. I see two possibilities, based on his posts re: Stepho
1) He's scum with Stepho
2) He's scum who knows Stepho is telling the truth about his claim, and he therefore has not questioned the claim so as not to draw negative attention if we lynch Stepho and he turns up "Good".

I'm not sure which, but I'm leaning #2.

Devestation: Has provided little defense when faced with potential death, even going as far as to actually self-vote (well, vig-vote). Ridiculous amount of Setael protecting in his later posts. I wouldn't say scummy or town, but there is something between these two going on.

This was extremely scummy. He attempts to tie Dev and me together without giving any details or quoting anything. When Dev calls him on it, he takes it back but never explained why he said it in the first place.

post 2391 was the first indication I had that either dramonic is scum with stepho or knows stepho is town. He doesn't question the claim at all in spite of what so many are interpreting as a clear contradiction. The second is after Amished came back:

That was quite the post Amished.

I don't know bout you guys, but for me that's enough to warrant not voting Steph (not that I was XD)

Dramonic's post 2307 was also really scummy – he seems to vote according to lamont's scumlist. That whole post gave a really bad vibe.

Sironigious post 2331 was also really scummy – no need for him to claim vanilla. It's a really antitown move at this point. I also find it weird that he thinks there's no problem with dramonic's post. Very likely scum if dramonic is scum.

As for Stepho - I am torn about the claim and I certainly see what is being considered a contradiction. However, I do NOT think he should be lynched today. When the mod first posted that Innocents are completely separate from the "Good" faction, I was sure Stepho was scum. However, then he made this statement:

I am not a "Vanillager". I have the abilities I claimed. My PM specifically states "and fellow Innocents", and I am quite obviously a pro-town role.

It is possible that Stepho misspoke when he said he was Innocent. It appears he was inferring this from the “fellow Innocents” phrase. I think it is possible that the “good” faction (i.e. power roles) have “fellow innocents” though they are not themselves an Innocent.

I then started thinking that it seems like Stepho's PM should have said he is on the side of “Good” and I think he'd have mentioned that when he claimed if it does. However, then Amished's did not mention his role PM saying he is "Good".

I think there is a chance Stepho is telling the truth about his claim, and anything that seems to be contradicting what the mod said has come from Stepho misspeaking or misunderstanding game mechanics that really weren't clear to any of us until the mod clarified in thread.

Because there is a chance of this, I think it would be very wise for those on the Stepho wagon to switch. Stepho should be given at the very least one more night to find scum or clear another person. (There is also a LOT of sense in stepho's statement that it has been narrowed down quite a bit today and his pool is very small for finding scum tonight.)

Worst case scenario, we lynch him and it turns out he's our cop. It would be incredibly damaging to the town and we may end up going after those who pushed his wagon, when they could very easily be Innocents that saw a contradiction in something that was just Stepho misunderstanding/misspeaking. It would not be THAT awful if we let him live another day even if it turns out he's scum.

Although purposing polices is usually bad, I have one to suggest. How about if we get to two days before deadline, we lynch the person with the most votes.IF there are two wagons that might possible go through (one at 6, the other at 5) then we will force everybody to chose between one of those two wagons. Sound good?

I agree with this, but I do not think Stepho should be one of the options. He should live at least one more day to give us the info he gets tonight. If we then lynch him and find out he's scum, we can disregard that info.

Of my two options, I am leaning toward thinking Dramonic is scum who knows Stepho is town.

I'd vote Dramonic here, but I already am.

[Setael]

Sironigious is my 2nd choice for scum. His buddies can hold down the fort while he's V/LA i'm sure.

If Stepho comes out scum I will probably look into Pyro/Xtoxm as possible scumbuddies

Where are you getting this conclusion? Xtoxm and Pyro have pushed Stepho's lynch harder than anyone. If anything, they're maybe scum if he's really our cop but if he's scum they are NOT likely scum buddies imo.

It is possible that Stepho misspoke when he said he was Innocent. It appears he was inferring this from the “fellow Innocents” phrase. I think it is possible that the “good” faction (i.e. power roles) have “fellow innocents” though they are not themselves an Innocent.

Which is why Amished and Naomi have both stated they don't have it?

*And yet Amished thinks Stepho's claim might be legit. How do you reconcile this? I think it is fail to auto assume this type of thing is definitive.

I think there is a chance Stepho is telling the truth about his claim, and anything that seems to be contradicting what the mod said has come from Stepho misspeaking or misunderstanding game mechanics that really weren't clear to any of us until the mod clarified in thread.

Examples?

*anything meaning EVERYTHING. i.e. saying he was Innocent

(There is also a LOT of sense in stepho's statement that it has been narrowed down quite a bit today and his pool is very small for finding scum tonight.)

Elaborate, please.

*Several people have outed themselves as vanillagers (assuming scum does not have access to the vanilla pm). This narrows down which players can be power roles or scum. This makes it easier for a cop to find scum.

If steph is scum, we are lynch naomi tomorrow. Budding and different factions counter any "only one is scum" argument. Or SK.

This makes no sense. Why would Stepho set himself up like that? If we lynched Naomi and Naomi came up scum, Stepho's result on him gets stepho lynched. Naomi is cleared as town whether stepho is scum or town.

Bottom line, I don't KNOW that stepho didn't fake claim. I do however think there is a chance he really is our cop and everything people are seeing as contradictions was said based on misunderstandings. I also think it's possible that Stepho would be told "infamous gentleman thief" when it wasn't in Naomi's pm. And frankly, with how Naomi botched her claim (but is very likely town) I am not willing to base a claimed cop's life on anything she says. Her pm might say something about her being famous or well known and she doesn't know to tell us. She didn't know to tell us she was a 1-shot right away, after all.

As long as the possibility exists that stepho is the cop, it is STUPID to lynch Stepho today and imo only scum will push it. It does not hurt us AT ALL to let him live one more day, and it might hurt us A LOT if we lynch him and he flips cop. He should be given at least one more night to get info. If you want to lynch him tomorrow, go for it. At least then if he flips town cop we have decent info.

Basically, if you are town you should think about this and at least let Stepho live one more day in case he's our cop. If you're scum, keep pushing his lynch because it will make it easier to spot you.

Can I get some other insight on both Amished and my Dramonic cases? He is a much better lynch than Stepho but he is the only one who has commented on it. Anyone?

[Setael]

Is it really IMPOSSIBLE that one power role would have "fellow innocents" in their role pm and others wouldn't? In THIS game when nothing is impossible? The mod even lets completely inexperienced players in. Just to mess with us. Anything is possible.

Before stepho's claim, i'd have preferred a Dev vote but yes I probably would've voted stepho. I might even vote Stepho tomorrow. I just want to see a result tomorrow from both him and Naomi. I think this will greatly benefit the town and I can see no reason not to.

@zazier - on the off chance that stepho is really the cop, I think he should live one more day. Assuming I'm wrong and he's scum, can you name ONE way it hurts us to let him live one more day?

[Setael]

Can I get some other insight on both Amished and my Dramonic cases? He is a much better lynch than Stepho but he is the only one who has commented on it. Anyone?

^ This again. I feel like a lot of you are hoping to just get stepho lynched because there's no competing wagon in time. NOW is the time to get a competing wagon, people. At the very least, this will provide info tomorrow depending on who is lynched and their alignment.

[Setael]

zazie, you're misrepresenting what i'm saying. I think maybe you're scum in a very good disguise. This frightens me since your activity level alone tends to make people write you off as town.

[Setael]

Stepho, did you not even consider clearing Pablo as town-aligned without revealing he's vanilla? If you are telling the truth and are our cop, you're making it far too easy for scum to pinpoint the power roles.

@those who think I'd make a better investigation, please state your reasoning. I think dramonic would've been ideal since I think he's scum. So, does your wish that I'd been investigated imply that you think I'm scum? If so, back it up.

@zazier - please clarify your question. Don't just link - state it here.

vote: Dramonic

[Setael]

The matches were not distributed randomly. I have them. I sent a PM to the mod requesting them, as they sounded like something I wanted to keep out of scum's hands. I can think of no reason to not say that I have them, in spite of what Pablo did. I can't really figure out why he asked for protection - there isn't really anything in relation to the matches that would give him a reason to do that. I was told that if I am able to escape I could use the matches to burn down the house, but it definitely doesn't indicate that I HAVE to do it in order for the town to win or anything so... *shrug*. I don't really have an explanation for Pablo's action. Probably he just wasn't thinking.

I also requested the doll and did not receive it, so likely someone else requested it first and has it.

[Setael]

Don't know what I'd have posted other than "Ima gonna try and get me them matches and that there dolly." I think the thread is better off with that little tidbit.

[Setael]

Who are you asking? If me, all I can tell you is that it had nothing to do with the matches. He probably just noticed how scummy you've been. Maybe he read amished's or my case.

[Setael]

My interpretation of the pm is they can only be used by someone who survives to endgame. Therefore I don't know if we should give them to Elmo. If that's what the town wants though I'll certainly comply. It might be a good way to verif that what I said about them is true.

@ zazie: I asked the mod about that before I said in thread that I have them since I thought it meant I wasn't supposed to say it in thread. He gave me permission so I did.

[Setael]

@zazier: what reason do you have to think I'm not telling the truth?

I guess Elmo can always give them to whomever the town decides on before he dies.

give matches to Elmo

[Setael]

-Items found during the day must be used before the lynch. The only exception so far was the shell as it had to be combined with a gun.
-It came at the same time with the doll. It seems to me that the two are connected. Flavour of the game reinforces this if it's the idol as the idol was destroyed due to a fire.
-Both town and scum don't need to burn down the mansion for their win condition. In other words, it means the matches would be used for flavour if you are correct. This seems very unlikely to me.

where are you getting that all items must be used during the day? Weren't we even told we could have used the shotgun later if we'd have waited for the right size shell? Seems like that "must use today" assumption is incorrect.

I see no basis for thinking they are tied. That also is all based on assumption.

I do not know that the town HAS to burn down the house. I think that may be what Pablo thought and therefore why he asked for protection. You're really stretching here.

It really looks like you're trying to paint me as scummy based on some convoluted logic. I don't like it. I took them to keep scum from having them. I gave them freely to Elmo. IGMEOY for this attempt to get the town to disbelieve and suspect me.

I also think Dev is spot on saying we should get to scum hunting instead of wasting time discussing items AGAIN when this has lead to a no lynch TWICE. I'll be rereading looking at zaz as soon as I have a chance.

[Setael]

@zazier - is there anything Naomi has done that is not explained by the fact that this is her very first game? If she is scum, stepho is also scum since he claimed an innocent on her. That would mean we have TWO fake claiming cop roles and no real cop.

Haven't had a chance to look at that link. Will do asap.

I do have something I need to post. I received a couple pms from the mod after asking for clarification. The matches are not transferable. I have to keep them and I must be alive at end game for a town win. If I'm not alive at endgame the best the town can get is a draw. The mod also confirmed that the scum do not need the matches to win.

This seems pretty messed up to me but I guess it's evened out since we have a multiple protect doc. I thought about not sharing these pms since it paints a NK target on my forehead but I don't think we can risk me being NKd anyway for whatever reason, not having shared this info with the town.

So yeah. Doc, you need to protect me tonight.

[Setael]

This wagon is laughable, but I'm not going to blame whatever townies might be on my wagon. I'm blaming the mod for the ridiculousness. I felt I had no voice but to be upfront and ask for protection from NK but OF COURSE the scum would jump on this and OF COURSE the townies are also suspicious. Frankly, I'd probably vote me too if I hadn't received the pms.

Here's the problem: you're all expecting his game to follow mafia rules and be why your use to when KoC is obviously doing everything he can to break all those rules. Scum, obviously, are capitalizing on this. Unless the town stops expecting this game to be "normal" we're going to lose. If you lynch me the best we can do is draw. I tried to give then to Elmo. Would I have done that if I were scum? That's how things have been transferrd before right? In thread just like I did. So if they were transferrable it would have worked and hohum would have them.

It would make no sense for me to draw this attention to myself like this now if I were scum. Yes, it's different than you'd expect a mafia game to go, but none of you have ANY reason to think this game should go as you expect.

[Setael]

Also... Tajo in your 74th post you said I was obv town. Then in your post you said I wouldn't give up the matches, when I did try to. Can you explain?

[Setael]

My guess is the house itself is considered a character. The first pm I got basically said that it deserves to be burnt down.

It is possible that if I'm killed someone else could pick up the matches. I was specifically told that they are not transferable and that my "task" now is to survive to end game with the matches. I can't see any way to interpret that but the way I did. It's possible though that if I die someone else could pick them up and it would then be their "task" to survive to endgame with them.

[Setael]

I'm waiting to hear back from the mod. It wouldn't be an issue of them being dropped, but rather someone taking them from my corpse. I think it's a definite possibility and would appreciate not being hammered until I get an answer. If someone can take them once I'm dead it's not nearly as big of a deal if I die.

If this is the case though, I don't understand why I would be til that my task is to keep mysel alive until endgame. I also don't understand why I wasn't told that until I asked for clarification. If it's a matte of the town winning or not, you'd think he'd have mentioned it initially.

I'm not saying any of it makes that much sense. How am I supposed to make these great, logical arguments to save myself when I don't think it's reasonable any more than anyone else does. The smartest thing would be to investigate me tonight. Have we been playing smart? No. (Day 1 and Day 2 no lynch... Impressive.) Do I think I can convince this town (and the scum who are thrilled
to support this wagon) not to lynch me when reason and mafia custom is against me? Nope.

In case someone quick hammers I think zazier and dramonic are scum and possibly Tajo. I gave you a post # Tajo (you in iso). You said I was obv town and didn't say why, though I assumed it was because I was trying to get people to stop claiming Innocent.

[Setael]

Got a response. KoC might be a bastard mod, but at least he's prompt.

If I am killed the matches will be destroyed. So there Lamont, I did interpret it right. If I am lynched, the best the town can get is a draw. If you don't like it, take it up with the mod. You'll probably get the response I got for complaining that one of our power roles had never played mafia before in her life, which was basically 'too bad. I'm intentionally screwing with you. Deal with it.'

[Setael]

Dramonic's unvote actually makes me more sure he's scum. He knows I'm town and therefore knows I'm telling the truth. Scum don't want a draw. They want to win. IMO he's unvoting in hopes it will earn him town points when I flip town. At that point it will be impossible for town to win but it will be possible for scum to win rather than draw.

@Lamont - I can't quote the pms. If I could I think it'd clear it up for you. I dId not see any way to interpret the pms than that if I die the town can't win but I asked the mod to clarify, just in case, if someone could retrieve the matches and take over this task if I died. As I just posted, the answer was no. If I die the matches are gone and the best the town can get is a draw.

[Setael]

I was specifically told the best town can get is a draw if I die.

V/LA until tomorrow. Sorry. Don't do anything rash.

[Setael]

I don't think we can draw lines so black and white re: my wagon since scum would not necessarily push for my lynch. My death just hurts the town, not the scum - they don't care if all the town can get is a draw; they'd still have to survive to actually win. Knowing I'd flip town I don't think scum would go after me like Lamont has. I think they'd be more like dramonic and zazier, unvoting to avoid too much suspicion and never really pushing my lynch that hard.

After this wagon, i think Lamont is town and zazier & dramonic are scum and maybe Tajo. I don't like how he was certain I was town but didn't even consider I might be telling the truth. Scum is, obviously, a lot more likely to forget who they have put on their townie list since it's all fabricated. It's possible a townie would do that though so I'm not sure about him. I'd prefer dramonic or zazier.

@amished - do you know when you will start having less protects? I do not think we should lynch stepho. Amished has to protect himself and me and at some point he won't be able to protect us AND stepho and the mafia will NK him. Even if they want to wifom us by not killing him they won't be able to afford the investigation results. Mafia's top priority right now will be convincing the town to lynch stepho. That's the last thing we should do.

I would certainly prefer an investigation of zaz or dramonic (whichever is alive) but I can see the usefulness in confirming me. Just seems like a waste when we could use it to find scum.

[Setael]

unvote, vote: zazier

Post 2984 took you above dramonic on my scum list.

Your WIFOM condemns you. I'm certainly not saying scum would not support my lynch at all. I'm still a town lynch which they'd certainly prefer over a scum lynch. What I am saying is that scum don't automatically win if I die so they would not be willing to attract suspicion in exchange for my lynch. It would make more sense to support the wagon without being as over the top as Lamont. They wouldn't want to push it so hard that the town turns on them when I flip town and you find out I was telling the truth and the best we can get is a draw. I would think scum would be more forward thinking since they will still be able to play for a win at that point. This is exactly how you've been playing. I think you're scum.

[Setael]

@Lamont: give me the benefit of the doubt for one day. Lynch zaz and investigate me tonight.

[Setael]

As for the power roles, imo amished is confirmed by this matches garbage, as without a multiple-protect doc, there's no way the mod would rest the town's win condition on one person.

[Setael]

@Lamont - what makes you think I'm a good fake claimer? I don't think there is evidence for that in my meta actually.

[Setael]

Here's the thing. Assume stepho and Naomi are both scum. It makes NO sense for stepho to tie herself to Naomi after Naomi's horrible claim and all the suspicion it had earned her. That would be the dumbest play ever since when Naomi was lynched stepho would be obv scum. No one would do that. If stepho is scum it would make more sense for him to claim an innocent investigation on someone who actually IS innocent so they appear confirmed when that person flips. Frankly, Naomi flipping town does not guatantee stepho is town. The only way we'll learn anything is if Naomi flips scum which is really unlikely.

The idea that there are no power roles is ridiculous. I guess I have inside knowledge since there is no way a mod would rest the town's win con on a person that the town has no way to protect.

There's a reason this wagon built so easily. Scum are all too thrilled to support it - 2 no lynches an then a lynch of someone who is almost certainly town. Good game, guys. By the time we've figured out that our power roles are telling the truth the scum will have killed off enough of us while we waste our lynches that it won't matter.

I'd much prefer lynching someone else who might be scum.

That said, Naomi would be better than a no lynch as it would convince the rest of you that stepho is a cop and he can then confirm me. And then we'll have to lynch scum every day.

[Setael]

Who's the boy? We know the house has to be destroyed - is there a chance the house can kill?

[Setael]

I guess it's possible we could use a match to burn the doll... We must have the matches at he end of the game in order to win, but that might not mean all of them... You only need one to torch a house, right? If we decide we want to try it, I'll ask the mod about it. We wouldn't want to risk it unless we could be sure it won't use them all up.

I still support a dramonic lynch.

[Setael]

I do.

vote: Dramonic

[Setael]

unvote

feeling less confident about dramonic. I hated light-kun's last posts. Leaning toward him but I need to do some rereading.

[Setael]

I amished has the doll and it has caused him to change teams, we are in big trouble. I find it hard to fathom that he didn't protect last night when not only are there roles he must protect, but he would be especially motivated to protect himself.

[Setael]

I'm thinking light-kun should be that person. He's very wishy washy and scummy. It would be immensely helpful if someone has time to reread and look at him more closely. I, unfortunately, do not have that time at present.

Anyone who thinks light-kun is town will need to either make a really convincing argument both against him and for someone the town can all agree on. It's possible the doll is like the matches and can't be given away, but it's certainly worth a shot.

[Setael]

Didn't finish my thought.

**either make those cases or agree with the town's lynch at least enough to say "give doll to (lead wagon)."

[Setael]

vote: light-kun

[Setael]

unvote

just to keep someone from hammering before we all have a chance to say we give the doll to light-kun. Consider me on the wagon still.

[Setael]

Zwet's post looked pretty obviously like sarcasm to me.

[Setael]

It's semantics then. The sentence can be read as Can't we have another no lynch? (sarcasm)

Can't we = can we not

see how it could be confusing?

Either way, it's not scummy and it's time to talk about something else. Like why light-kun has disappeared when he should be claiming.

[Setael]

I have said this already, but referred to the entire post rather than quoting. To be more specific, this quote sent off my scumdar:

In terms of who to lynch...grr.... tough question... of all the players, Dram sends me mixed signals, but looking at his history, I see that quite often. Could be giving too much to the manner in which he speaks, but he could be innocent... I would personally advocate a Lamont lynch or a Sir lynch at the moment, but I am lacking any strong reads. I will look at a few of the bandwagons and be back to this point.

Painfully noncommital. This kind of wishy washiness is much more likely to come from scum.

That being said, I recognize the value that I could give as confirmed town if I had time to reread and make a case on either light or someone else depending on what I found. I just don't have the time.

mod: I need to be replaced, please. I will play until someone is found. Sorry.

This is my first time replacing out of a game. Sucks.

[Setael]

FOS: Zwet for trying to hammer before everyone can say they give the doll. As one who did attempt to pick up the doll, I like the idea in case one of us has it and doesnt know it. There are enough ppl on wagon and I am willing to hammer. There's a chance we could get rid of it by giving it to whoever we lynch. Either scum has it or the person who has it is unaware of that fact, so there should be NO hammer until everyone says the following or something similar:

give doll to Light-kun

[Setael]

Thanks for replacing, sajin.

Almost

makes up for WoT.

Good luck, all.