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[SensFan]

Sorry. This hadn't made it on my Watched Topics.

[SensFan]

Alright, caught up on this and my QTs.

Seraphim looks very scummy to me, will likely be getting my vote when we switch to the lynching phase.
I like Adel's plan for roles.

[SensFan]

Also sens, can you elaborate on why you think Sera is scummy?

A combination of factors.

For one, presenting a self-meta as a reason that supposedly says 'everything I'm doing that you think is scummy is just me'. The other reasons are what his 'meta' was explaining as Town, like the eagerness to lynch, and such.

[SensFan]

To be honest, I disagree that the Ad Exec should have to listen to the rest of the Town in deciding on the roles. Let them make the decision, and then hold them responsible.

[SensFan]

@Adel, this post was from

before

we got our roles/alignments.

I'm pretty sure that's Adel's point.

Vote Count 1.1.6, as of post 239

(0) Roleblocker-
(0) Tracker-
(2) PGO- curiouskarmadog, Nuwen
(0) Bus Driver-
(0) None-

not voting:

Seraphim, crywolf, Ren Hoek, vollkan

4 to approve

Deadline for Day 1 is 6 PM EST August 4.

Approved

Tracker

[SensFan]

Sucks that we didn't have a random voting stage as now the game is really stalled. So in an effort to solve this.

Vote: Seraphim

For reasons previously stated and to get the discussion going

Vote: FL

Why would you possibly be disappointed that we have 11 pages of game-related stuff to vote based on, rather than nothing?

[SensFan]

FoS: Ren Hoek

This will become a vote if he isn't at L-1.

[SensFan]

FoS: Ren Hoek

This will become a vote if he isn't at L-1.

I have 5/8 votes if my count is correct, so don't be a chicken and place your vote.

Awesome, thanks for letting me know.

Vote: Ren Hoek

[SensFan]

The points raised against FL are very solid, and I still haven't forgotten FL's "Damnit, I wish we had nothing to start off of" comment.

[SensFan]

I don't think I'm as far off as you seem to think I am.

He was upset that we were in a position of a fixed deadline, except we were essentially entering D1 with 11 pages of discussion. But, ummmm...that's a hell of a lot

better

than it would be to start with a 'random' phase.

[SensFan]

I could see myself voting for SensFan if he fails to produce a convincing explanation for why FL's tell is "VERY SOLID."

Its funny you say that, since I don't think I have any votes on me at all, and you called me a chicken earlier for not voting you when I had plenty of reasons and you were at L-2. So why, exactly, did you not just vote me? Especially since all the points raised against FL (by both Adel and myself) have been explained quite thoroughly.

[SensFan]

Ok, I'm back. Was expecting more posts to catch up on. So

@Sens.

except we were essentially entering D1 with 11 pages of discussion.

Not about who is scum or not, but about choosing our power roles, which was basically agreeing with adel.

Saying that those 11 pages could lead to completely solid votes is at the very best an overstatement. Based on the little amount of information there was + the game was stalled, I went on what little we had, which spurred discussion

Which was my intention.

I still don't understand. How would the game possibly be better off with absolutely nothing than with 11 pages of game-related stuff?

[SensFan]

Vote: SensFan

Not only are you taking what FL said out of context (he wished there was a random voting stage because the game was stalled), you have ignored Ren Hoek. Instead of explaining why the points agianst Fl are "solid" (they aren't, btw) you try to turn it against him.

Umm, except I'm not taking what FL said out of context at all. The fact remains that, if you think the game is stalled, I can't possibly understand why Town would think 'Wow, this game is stalled. I wish we were also starting from scratch, rather than being able to use whatever information was gained from the first phase of Day 1'.

And no, I didn't ignore Ren at all. I pointed out the extreme hypocrisy in his actions, considering he earlier implied I was scummy for not voting him when I didn't know how many votes were on him! Furthermore, the arguments against FL have been explained quite well by both myself and Adel - and don't forget the two of us can talk outside of this thread - and Ren didn't say he didn't understand the points raised. It was a no-win situation for me, since he clearly wasn't convinced that the points raised were any good, but instead of asking me to explain the points more clearly, he asked me to tell him why they were good.

Ren's response to my post, though, is even more illuminating. He first strawmans my statement about me not having any votes on me, taking the quote out of context to avoid showing that I'm about to explain why me having no votes on me is relevant. Then he goes on to dispute the fact I have plenty of reasons to be voting him, singling me out for the large wagon on him. He misrepresents me completely when he says I 'responded to his invitation to vote him quite eagerly', considering I had been quite clear in explaining that the only reason I wasn't voting him was because I was unsure of the vote count, and he let me know he wasn't at L-1. Ren wraps up his post by calling me opportunistic, despite the fact that (if memory serves), I was the first person to go after FL.

Yes, I'm very happy with my vote on Ren right now, though I think scot and FL are also likely Scum.

[SensFan]

...but instead of asking me to explain the points more clearly, he asked me to tell him why they were good.

What's the diff? You're the one that called them very solid. What's wrong with asking you to explain that?

You never said you didn't understand the points raised, you said you didn't think they were solid. If you understand the points being raised against FL, and you don't think they're worth much, how can I possibly convince you otherwise?

Also, I notice that you failed to respond to all the other points I raised, about how you strawmanned and misrepresented me.

[SensFan]

If you understand the points being raised against FL, and you don't think they're worth much, how can I possibly convince you otherwise?

Maybe they seem weak because I don't understand them. Why don't you try? Unless you don't really think the case is "very solid" and you are merely being opportunistic scum.

Are you seriously saying that your stance is 'I don't know if I understand the points'?

Either you understand them and think they're weak, in which case you can't expect me to tell you why I think they're strong.
Or you don't understand them, in which case you can't call me scummy for understanding them and being suspicious of FL because of it.

You need to pick one of the two and stick to it. So which one is it?

[SensFan]

I still don't understand. How would the game possibly be better off with absolutely nothing than with 11 pages of game-related stuff?

It is not absolute nothing. There's a reason every other game starts with a random voting stage

Yeah, because there's absolutely nothing else to go on.
We had 11 pages of stuff to go on, which is way better than nothing.

'Wow, this game is stalled. I wish we were also starting from scratch, rather than being able to use whatever information was gained from the first phase of Day 1'.

Except I never wished it. I wished there was a random voting stage before hand because it always provides info that we seriously needed at that point

That's bullshit, a 'random voting stage' provides nowhere near as much information as 11 pages of discussion.

Yes, I'm very happy with my vote on Ren right now, though I think scot and FL are also likely Scum.

Page 16 and you already have a scumgroup? Wow, you're good

Not at all, where did you see that?
I said I'm happy with my vote on one person, and that two other people are likely to be Scum.

I was the first person to go after FL.

Except you entirely dropped it until Adel brought it up again

[/quote]
First of all, I don't recall dropping it in here.
Secondly, and Adel can vouch for me here, I haven't dropped it at all in our QT.

[SensFan]

I'm holding my cards close to my chest for now. I want other players to contribute more, and I don't want to serve as a pathfinder for the scum to get a mislynch.

Which is bullshit since you're voting for me, meaning you're still giving them a "pathfinder". I'm still curious as to why you decide to be non commital to one person, but commit to the other side of it.

Don't worry, Adel commented plenty about how he feels about the wagon forming on me. This way, he's on record with his thoughts, but at the same time can delay posting them until the lurkers have given their thoughts.

[SensFan]

Can someone sum up why so many people see me as scummy all of a sudden? Cause I'm really not getting it.

I'd go with Volkan's list, except he appears to not really care about looking at the attack in detail, given he missed the relevence about me not having any votes, and threw some general nondescript about how certain words I used are "an easy way to smear", without saying why they were bad in this case.

[SensFan]

Well, Sensfan, your attack against FL looked like you were misrepresenting him.

More to the point was your odd reluctance to answer the question Ren posed, which was "why do you think the case against FL was so solid?"

In these two posts, it looks like you choice to verbally fence with Ren rather then actualy just answer the question, and I don't understand why a pro-town person would resist explaining their case on someone.

Well, I still don't see why/where I misrepresented FL at all, and am getting frustrated that so many people seem to think I did.

As it pertains to Ren's questions, the case was very clear in the thread, explained by both Adel and I. Had Ren asked me to explain the case again for him, I would gladly have done so, but he was saying "I understand the case, think its weak, but will vote you unless you can tell me why its strong", which is a clear no-win situation for me.

[SensFan]

ckd, I've answered those questions.

[SensFan]

Sens, it should be very clear to you where you are been accused of misrepping FL.
Look at Yosarian's post 355. You have clearly taken FL out of context, will you accept this and does it affect your opinion of FL?

No, I don't accept its a misrep, since I still don't believe I misreped anything.

There is literally no pro-Town reason anyone would wish there was a RVS, given the situation.

[SensFan]

I honestly cannot see how Sens can debate that a RVS is useless, considering if it was useless, games wouldn't partake in it. It obviously has some use

An RVS certainly has some use. I find a ton of Scum with it, actually.
11 pages of discussion is infinitely more useful.

[SensFan]

11 pages of discussion is infinitely more useful.

Eighteen pages should be even better. Who is the scum?

You know I've given my opinion on that.

FL, scot, Ren. In no particular order.

[SensFan]

I'm annoyed that sens apparently has the time to constantly post in other games and other threads on the site but yet he can't answer a simple question of why he thinks I am scum. Him constantly ignoring that question which a few people have asked him is condemning.

I think that your attack on me was bullshit and opprtunistic.

[SensFan]

scotmany: Now that everything's revealed, mind sharing why you chose which group to do what?

Out of the six of them, I trusted Yos and Adel the most. Out of everyone, I trusted Yos the most to make a good decision with the busdriver. I'm glad that tracker ended up with Adel, because regardless of my suspicion of Sens, I'd rather him have the investigative role than Sens.

Don't you think SensScum would have grabbed the Tracker ability?

[SensFan]

scotmany: Now that everything's revealed, mind sharing why you chose which group to do what?

Out of the six of them, I trusted Yos and Adel the most. Out of everyone, I trusted Yos the most to make a good decision with the busdriver. I'm glad that tracker ended up with Adel, because regardless of my suspicion of Sens, I'd rather him have the investigative role than Sens.

Don't you think SensScum would have grabbed the Tracker ability?

You choice to not go right after the tracker ability does not change my opinion of your alignment. You didn't right up give it to Adel, and it wouldn't surprise me for scum to do exactly what you did sens. Had you grabbed the tracker ability right away, it would have been scummy.

Now you're just being dumb.

How the fuck could it be scummy, when Adel says "take whichever of the roles you prefer", to take one of the roles?

[SensFan]

Whatever.

It looks to me like you're just looking for anything to call me scummy, and I don't have the patience or the time to care anymore. Hell, if I had known you and ckd were playing, I wouldn't have signed up, and you know that. So stop doing everything you can to piss me off.

This is a game, its supposed to be fun.

[SensFan]

Give me vig and I'll kill Budja.

Budja has lurked and remained very wimpy and tentative, very cautious with his words, and very short, like he's trying not to give himself away.

Otherwise the choices are pretty obvious.

You do understand that you can't be given a role, right?

[SensFan]

You do understand that you can't be given a role, right?

I didn't, actually.

You're saying you didn't understand how the roles are given out?

Go read the front post now, then explain to me how the roles are distibuted, and who can get them. We can't afford to have people that don't understand the mechanics.

[SensFan]

not played up to his level, and I take a lack of investment as a town tell for him.

interesting..

is there a game that set that level for you? does his involvement differ from a lurker?

for the record, this is the most active I have seen him in game....

As I've told you plenty of times before, I would consider all the games I played with you to be by far my worst. That's probably related to the fact both times I replaced into the games after 50ish pages and in neither case did I commit myself enough to read the thread.

[SensFan]

Didn't read all of OGML's post and everything said in the last page, but I believe he is wrong when he says Adel is scum. Mostly because I still believe Sens to be scum, and I really don't see them talking like they did in there QT if they were scum together.

In the interests of open-ness, Adel modded (and I played in) a game in which everyone had QTs to communicate, and people were being asked to post screenshots of their QTs to show they weren't talking about scumstuff.

Yos was also in that game, though I don't believe that either of TDC-Budja were.

TDC/Budja, are you willing to post a screenshot of your QT?

[SensFan]

First things first, TDC/Budja.

Use your QT way more.
Seriously, its such an invaluable tool, don't waste it!

[SensFan]

Goat:

I'm alive in 2 other games at the moment.
I'm generally agressive regardless of alignment, and yes I have been known to pull gambits as Scum.

[SensFan]

Adel, I notice a pattern of you inflaming suspicion on players that are generally trusted to be town, or nearly confirmed.

Right now you are challenging my read on CKD and OGML. I don't recall either being the subject of suspicion, however, you use what I perceive to be an accusatory tone demanding why I find both players to be very townie.

You seem to really want to avoid that we have players that are generally trusted to be townies. Trusted townies are very inconvenient for the scum. Your actions fit a scum agenda to a tee.

If anyone thinks they are confirmed right now, they are sorely mistaken.

[SensFan]

Got prodded.

Am in the US, won't be home until tomorrow night late. I'll catch up when I can.

[SensFan]

Posting this in my sig and all ongoing games:
I just got fired from my job. V/LA until further notice.

[SensFan]

Alright, so I'm back here.

I'm not sure what I think of the wagon against Adel/MSH, I'l have to look more in detail.

I've only had time to skim what I missed so far, I'll read in more detail later today.

[SensFan]

Dear Ren Hoek,

I regret to inform you that I am not, unfortunately, Scum. Continue asking others, or myself if we meet again sometime in the future. I wish you the best of luck in finding your buddies this way, since it seems they don't trust you enough to reveal themselves to you.

Sincerely,

SensFan

[SensFan]

Sens isn't ignoring this game, or lurking, or anything.
Sens hasn't really been playing in any of his ongoing games since the RL issues popped up.
12 hours from now, I'll have some real content here. Just don't lynch or hammer until then.

[SensFan]

First, I'll start by addressing Ren's point about me having supposedly "given up".

I don't 'give up'. I just don't, its not how I play. You can feel free to look up any of my previous games, and you'll see that's not me.
I especially wouldn't give up due to being bussed, since I happen to feel strongly that bussing is the correct play a lot more often than most people do. This I should be able to provide proof for if needed.

---

To answer Goat, I explained it: RL issues that make me not want to play Mafia.

---

As a note, MSH hasn't once PM'd me to tell me to get my ass in here, even though he knows he's allowed to.

---

More to come.

[SensFan]

I've reread page 30 many times, the immediate pages leading up to page 30 several times, and the entire game up to that point a few times.
Each time it leaves me very frustrated.

I won't be playing mafia again any time soon.

In all fairness, Adel, I don't think that was that much worse than how you've treated me in previous game(s).