The Manor: Chzo Mafia (Game Over!)

[Stephoscope]

Stephoscope replaces Queen Elizabeth II, effective immediately.

Now those are some mighty big shoes to fill.

(Confirm, hi all.)

[Stephoscope]

hohum, understanding that no one here knows what effect the mysterious liquid is going to have, would you be willing to conduct a vote and then force the drink onto whomever's voted for?

[Stephoscope]

If you had the opportunity to pick a recpient now, who would it be and why?

I say give it to Lamont. He's been posting a lot and seems to want to control the game, so it'll be good to throw a wrench into things to try and determine if he's town or if he has scumbuddies.

[Stephoscope]

Well the question is do we think its harmful or beneficial. If we think its beneficial we should give it to someone very pro town looking. If we think its harmful, we give it to someone not looking great.

For the record, I personally am not even going to guess if the drink is good or bad. Who knows? I am more interested in the overall goal of lynching intelligently.

[Stephoscope]

I will not vote for anyone until either someone drinks the drink, or we come to a consensus that no one is going to drink the drink.

I still think we should force Lamont to chug it.

[Stephoscope]

I am 100% in favor of someone drinking the drink.

I am against the idea of random.org, since we'll just read into however a given person's "randomization" goes. Let's just pick someone. I pick Lamont.

[Stephoscope]

I am 100% in favor of someone drinking the drink.

I am against the idea of random.org, since we'll just read into however a given person's "randomization" goes. Let's just pick someone. I pick Lamont.

Why do you think Lamont should drink it?

Because, given his playstyle, I think it will be helpful to know whether he's town or scum, and the drink may facilitate that, or perhaps facilitate other scumhunting opportunities.

[Stephoscope]

Random is the only way to do it. If we decide on drinking it EVERYONE should be put in the random.
If we don't put everyone on random there's a chance people may avoid it with reasons we don't know yet. Or like Lament said in post 278.
I don't think discussion should be about who drinks it but more about if we should actually drink it or not.

Random is not going to work. Someone can fake that they "randomized" it, and even if they don't, they'll be suspected of it. I mean, let me know if I'm missing something, but we might as well all agree on doing something instead of agreeing to a process that's easily corrupted.

[Stephoscope]

I thought we were talking about using random.org. My bad, I was unfamiliar with the dice roll thing on here, and didn't know what was happening when Nyx used it earlier.

I didn't want the drink to go to Lamont because he wanted it. I wanted it to go to him because he seems to have an aggressive, frequent posting style, and I thought it would be helpful to find out early whether or not he's town. I figured the drink would possibly facilitate that. I'm not going to speculate any more on exactly what it might do, none of us have any idea.

[Stephoscope]

Conversely, I think not wanting anyone to drink the drink is anti-town. It's usually a townie who gets lynched on day one. Throwing a wrench into things and making the game more interesting should lead to more things to analyze, more discussion, and more chances to find scum...and I think all of that is very much pro-town.

[Stephoscope]

That random roll is TOTALLY corrubtible because Hohum gets to choose whether or not he wants to use it. Because you rolled it BEFORE he made the choice.

I think he just did that as an example. I'm sure there were others in addition to myself who were unaware of that function on here.

Now, if he comes out and says: "I'm rolling and whoever it comes up as from the list is getting it no matter what" -- that IS random but I'm against it. I think its anti-town to force it on ANYONE and dangerous to the town to volunteer to drink it.

Its just not necessary.

I am fine with doing it that way. I am also fine with it being put to a vote as to whether we want to do it that way. I'd rather that Hohum not make the decision on his own, but if he wants to do that there's nothing anyone can do about it.

[Stephoscope]

The dice code on this forum is sufficiently random for me. Why is it not for you steph? Your also the one who wanted it to go to lamont because he wanted it....why? How would it help us determine his playstyle on him in particular over someone else?

vote Stephoscope

fos Lamont

I like your logic here Sajin, but I would more broadly apply it to ANYONE that advocates forcing of the liquid; "insert recipient name HERE".

FoS Steph

Well, be fair--I advocate that we all vote on whom to force it to. And I'm sure there are more townies than scum that'd be voting...

[Stephoscope]

Anyone advocating forcing it on anyone should be considered to be asking it to be forced on themselves

Well, duh. I want to vote on it, and I'm as much of a candidate to drink it as anyone else is.

[Stephoscope]

If I was scum I'd be reluctant to drink

[Stephoscope]

If I was scum I'd be reluctant to drink

QFT

Well, let the record show you're absolutely terrified of that drink.

[Stephoscope]

@Steph

, are you a big fan of blind vig-killing on the first day?

Although I'm not even trying to guess what the drink does, I really doubt it just kills the drinker.

[Stephoscope]

@321Lamont- Anser the last question please.

@All Would a diceroll 1-19 by hohum and the drink be given to the result as according to post 1 be acceptable? Type /agree if you find this ok.

/agree

But I would still support forcing it on terrified Lamont, with majority's approval

[Stephoscope]

Umm, I'm not seeing your Wiki, Lamont >_>

Well duh, it requires electricity.

[Stephoscope]

THIS IS JUST FOR TESTING PURPOSES, THESE ROLLS MEAN NOTHING.

Original Roll String: 1d3

1 3-Sided Dice: (3) = 3

Original Roll String: 1d4

1 4-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

Original Roll String: 1d5

1 5-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

Original Roll String: 1d50

1 50-Sided Dice: (10) = 10

[Stephoscope]

OK...I was just checking that someone couldn't Preview until he or she got the desired results, then post. What appears above aren't the results that were in my Preview.

[Stephoscope]

Conversely, I think not wanting anyone to drink the drink is anti-town. It's usually a townie who gets lynched on day one. Throwing a wrench into things and making the game more interesting should lead to more things to analyze, more discussion, and more chances to find scum...and I think all of that is very much pro-town.

what is the point of the second sentence in this post?

The point is that, more often than not, scumhunting is unsuccessful before anything really happens in the game. On Day One, unless something like this comes up, all there is is talking...and it has been my experience that the player acting scummiest is usually just a townie playing poorly that everyone can justify lynching. I am looking past the arguments of what the drink may or may not do to any one player, and looking at the big picture of more effective scumhunting starting right now.

[Stephoscope]

I will not vote for anyone until either someone drinks the drink, or we come to a consensus that no one is going to drink the drink.

I still think we should force Lamont to chug it.

are you a lyncher stephoscope? cuz if you are i think this is just precious

I don't know exactly what you mean by this. I am certainly not a premature lyncher.

For the record, I'm really not looking to build any hostility between Lamont and myself. While I don't agree with him, I do understand his manner of thinking, and I did think he did a fair job of summarizing my point of view in his post a while back.

[Stephoscope]

I wonder if the mod has even decided what the drink does yet.

[Stephoscope]

I wonder if the mod has even decided what the drink does yet.

I AM disappointed. This is a carefully orchestrated, perfectly planned mindfuck of a game, and if anything happens, it is because I want it to, and random.org has said so.

Fair enough

[Stephoscope]

Ok lets start the voting for the decanter

Sure, why not. I vote for Lamont. To restate: I believe using it on a player like him is a good idea because it will hopefully make it obvious whether or not he's town aligned, letting us use his enthusiasm for good or letting us get rid of him if he's scum, and make overall scumhunting easier as well.

I do not expect the drink to kill him outright or any such thing--frankly, I'm banking that it won't.

[Stephoscope]

Amished, out of curiosity, is your name "Amish Ed", or is it "amished" like a past tense verb?

[Stephoscope]

I'm going to be away for the next 48 hours or so. I have family coming in for my graduation (I have no idea why graduation is scheduled for a Thursday, but it is).

[Stephoscope]

Xtoxm, can you tell us what was the purpose of your quoting KoC from another game? What point were you trying to get across? (I have absolutely no idea what the quote was)

[Stephoscope]

I don't want to get anyone in trouble, but it seems as though you could make your point without breaking any rules.

[Stephoscope]

Fair enough.

[Stephoscope]

Dating myself: I did that back when it was called Olympics of the Mind. Wow, I haven't thought of that in years.

[Stephoscope]

Whoa.

Well that's that, then. Anything else you want to get off your chest before the unknown effects take hold?

[Stephoscope]

Feeling anything yet, hohum?

[Stephoscope]

I've read a game (it was a marathon one) where one of the evil players was forced to use the devil smiley once a week. Lamont is the only one I've seen that has used it so far (once in iso 83, Friday the 15th; and once in iso 170 on Sat the 23rd). It could be a bastard mod thing where you need to use it once every 100 posts, but that's pure speculation and you can do with that knowledge what you will. (I believe the player was nominated for a scummy, best roleclaim or something? if you want to look it up).

That is a really interesting speculation.

Lamont, would you be willing to promise not to use the devil smiley any more this game?

[Stephoscope]

I suspect that if the mod hasnt told us yet, he aint gonna tell us until the end of the day/night.

The mod is away, and we haven't yet heard from the backup mod.

I agree we should be careful with voting until we understand what the drink did. I for one will not be casting any vote until we find out what the effects were, or when it becomes very clear that we're not going to.

[Stephoscope]

Lamont, would you be willing to promise not to use the devil smiley any more this game?

[Stephoscope]

Lamont, the third time I have to ask you about the devil sign (and props to Amished for the original catch) will come along with a vote. I hardly think asking about your use of a devil sign is anti-town rolefishing.

[Stephoscope]

Vote: Lamont_Cranston

I may remove my vote if you pledge to not use the devil sign.

I didn't want to vote before the effects of the drink were known, but damn, you're really noncommittal about the devil sign.

[Stephoscope]

Steph until you give me a reason why I should do such a silly think you can put your vote wherever you want. That's a silly reason to vote anyone and I won't be held responsible for it.

All you gotta do is pledge not to use the devil sign. I don't think that's an unreasonable request.

If you can't make that promise, I'll assume you're scum who needs to use the devil sign. (Thank you once again, Amished.)

[Stephoscope]

Guess we have another devil sign coming soon, huh?

[Stephoscope]

Mod: Does hohum die in two game days, or two real-life days?

All: Let's look at the bright side. We have a *confirmed townie* who's with us in the game for a little while longer. How can we use this to our advantage?

[Stephoscope]

Take small paper box

[Stephoscope]

hohum, Thief and Innocent, is mortally ill. He has 2 days to live.

[Stephoscope]

On a side note, I don't like the BW choices for today. I hold them both as town. I recommend changing them.

The what?

[Stephoscope]

For the record, the small paper box I picked up doesn't seem to be doing anything.

[Stephoscope]

I got sucked into reading and finished my first read of the game.

For the record, the small paper box I picked up doesn't seem to be doing anything.

The Mod never posted the box having disappeared or any indication that you successfully picked it up. Did you get a PM that says you have the box in your possession? Also several times thoughout the game you mention withholding your vote until X happens. Why did you feel you needed to hold your vote?

I was really just kidding about the box. I didn't expect it to be a "real" item, just figured it was worth a try.

As for withholding my vote...we have plenty of time, why vote until we have all the information (i.e. what the drink did and who was affected by it)? Although I think eventually I gave in once Lamont wouldn't answer the question about the devil smiley.

[Stephoscope]

As for withholding my vote...we have plenty of time, why vote until we have all the information (i.e. what the drink did and who was affected by it)? Although I think eventually I gave in once Lamont wouldn't answer the question about the devil smiley.

Sorry but it was you who didn't answer.

I answered you a mere five minutes later.

[Stephoscope]

Nope sorry you didn't.

Yes I did. There is no pro-town reason for you not to promise to avoid the devil sign, as I can't imagine a pro-town role having to post the devil sign. So, your refusal to make that promise leads me to assume you are scum who has to use the sign as part of his role.

[Stephoscope]

I was really just kidding about the box. I didn't expect it to be a "real" item, just figured it was worth a try.

Why did you think it was okay to lead people on that you had the box?

I was trying to make a joke. I'm sorry if it failed miserably.

As for withholding my vote...we have plenty of time, why vote until we have all the information (i.e. what the drink did and who was affected by it)? Although I think eventually I gave in once Lamont wouldn't answer the question about the devil smiley.

Voting is one of the best ways to hold people accountable for their suspcions. If you aren't going to vote at all during the entire beginning of the day we can't be sure of your suspicions and it's a good way for a scum player to sit back and wait until there's a wagon vote that they like and put their vote there or make a vote based on the general opinions of the town, making you appear less accountable overall for your vote when you do put it somewhere and making it so other players can build a case so that you do need to.

Vote: Stephoscope

While you make some good points here about voting and why scum would be reluctant to do it, I have already placed my vote and explained exactly why...so don't accuse me of wanting to sit back and wait for a wagon, because that's not what I did.

I just wanted to make sure we figured out what was going on with the drink before we complicated things with voting...and I wanted to make sure our eventual lynch would be an informed one, with the knowledge of what (if anything) the drink had done.

[Stephoscope]

While you make some good points here about voting and why scum would be reluctant to do it, I have already placed my vote and explained exactly why...so don't accuse me of wanting to sit back and wait for a wagon, because that's not what I did.

It's exactly what you did. There were already five votes on Lamont_Craston when yours finally came around to land on him and the reason you gave wasn't even your own reason, you took what someone else found and used that as the basis for your vote.

Whether or not it was "my own reason" doesn't affect whether it's the right vote. I'm more concerned with getting the right lynch then I am with looking all pro-town, and I made sure to credit Amished for the catch.

I just wanted to make sure we figured out what was going on with the drink before we complicated things with voting...and I wanted to make sure our eventual lynch would be an informed one, with the knowledge of what (if anything) the drink had done.

Voting and lynching are the primary functions of the town. Delaying that function is bad because it can lead to a rushed and less than optimal decisions as deadlines approach.

Well, whether or not you agreed with my thinking (and you do make some good points), you might try being suspicious of people who withheld their votes or were wishy-washy about them

without clearly explaining themselves every step of the way

like I did, but whatever.

[Stephoscope]

Well, I've provided several reasons: I thought it would be best to concentrate on the drink issue and have everyone participate before muddying the waters with votes flying around, and I did not want a lynch to put an end to the day without knowing what was going on with the drink. Also, if I were trying to get away with something, I would not have announced it and then have suspicions such as yours come up. Perhaps I should have handled things differently, but that doesn't mean I'm scummy.

Do you actually have any problem with my rationale for voting Lamont? At first I thought there was probably nothing to the devil sign thing, but Lamont's refusal to not use the sign doesn't make any sense to me. Rolefishing is normally bad, but somehow I don't think rolefishing regarding a devil sign is any problem...

[Stephoscope]

Nope sorry you didn't.

Yes I did. There is no pro-town reason for you not to promise to avoid the devil sign, as I can't imagine a pro-town role having to post the devil sign. So, your refusal to make that promise leads me to assume you are scum who has to use the sign as part of his role.

WTH are you talking about!? Wat kind of crazy bullsh*t argument is this?? I have to promise not to hit a key so you won't vote me!?

Is this kiddie mafia!??

KMA.

If you were town, I can't imagine why you would refuse to promise not to use the devil sign.

No one but you thinks it's a "crazy bullsh*t argument"...(if anyone else does, feel free to speak up!)

[Stephoscope]

Well lets say you are right and everyone is enthralled with your wonderful argument...

I will promise not to use it if:

1) You promise to bring that stupid argument up again
2) Provide some real analysis on someone towards actually catching SCUM today

9.9

Huh? I'm trying to scumhunt. If you explicitly make your promise, I'll remove my vote and look elsewhere. I'll have absolutely no reason to bring that argument up again if you promise not to use the devil sign and then abide by that promise.

[Stephoscope]

WTF? Say, without qualifications, that you won't use the devil sign again. Do that, and I'll remove my vote.

Keep fighting me, and my vote will stand and I hope everyone else votes to lynch you.

[Stephoscope]

LOL. Fine if that makes you feel justified then you can know that:

1) You advocated a total crap, baseless and childish reason for my lynch
2) Refused to back away from it when given a legitimate opportunity to do so

Based on the above, I cannot be held responsible for your actions.

Did you want to promise you won't use the devil sign any more?

Because if not, let it be noted that you're avoiding the very simple thing I asked of you, whilst trying very hard to demean my character (I'm "baseless" and "childish" for demanding you prove you're not sworn to the devil horns? ok!)

[Stephoscope]

LOL. Fine if that makes you feel justified then you can know that:

1) You advocated a total crap, baseless and childish reason for my lynch
2) Refused to back away from it when given a legitimate opportunity to do so

Based on the above, I cannot be held responsible for your actions.

Did you want to promise you won't use the devil sign any more?

Because if not, let it be noted that you're avoiding the very simple thing I asked of you, whilst trying very hard to demean my character (I'm "baseless" and "childish" for demanding you prove you're not sworn to the devil horns? ok!)

So,

if you want me to promise not to use that stupid smiley

, did you want to promise:

1) Not to bring up that dumb argument ever again
2) Provide some serious analysis to actually find scum today

hmmmm?

Because otherwise ur just trying to come up with a cheap excuse for a lynch vote.

You are in no position to try and negotiate right now. I'm not going to set myself up to be accused that my "analysis" is not "serious" by someone who I don't trust.

[Stephoscope]

LOL. Fine if that makes you feel justified then you can know that:

1) You advocated a total crap, baseless and childish reason for my lynch
2) Refused to back away from it when given a legitimate opportunity to do so

Based on the above, I cannot be held responsible for your actions.

Did you want to promise you won't use the devil sign any more?

Because if not, let it be noted that you're avoiding the very simple thing I asked of you, whilst trying very hard to demean my character (I'm "baseless" and "childish" for demanding you prove you're not sworn to the devil horns? ok!)

So,

if you want me to promise not to use that stupid smiley

, did you want to promise:

1) Not to bring up that dumb argument ever again
2) Provide some serious analysis to actually find scum today

hmmmm?

Because otherwise ur just trying to come up with a cheap excuse for a lynch vote.

You are in no position to try and negotiate right now. I'm not going to set myself up to be accused that my "analysis" is not "serious" by someone who I don't trust.

Dewd, you don't understand. YOU have a crap argument. You either come across with mutual promises are you suffer with your crap argument.

Whatever. Even the player who supposedly thinks I'm scummy has no problem with my argument. It's fine, my vote will stand.

[Stephoscope]

I just checked Nueva. He's not lurking as hard as you imply. And his isolation 9 looks pro-town to me.

Steph - Your argument

is

crap. I fail to see how you believe something so absurd enough to bring it up.

What's absurd is that he won't say "OK, I see how the devil sign might be suspicious given that scum has been forced to use it before...I won't use it any longer."

Instead, he's trying to use the opportunity to make me commit to his arbitrary analysis of my gameplay.

[Stephoscope]

Quit whining. If you're so obsessed over some stupid smiley idea then just promise not to bring up the stupid crap anymore and start doing some real game analysis. Whining doesn't help anything.

No one's whining. If you won't promise not to use it, you get my vote. It's as simple as that, and I'm not interested in negotiating, nor listening to your contrived analysis of my gameplay.

[Stephoscope]

I'm resistant to a crapologic argument which has no merit. She is unwilling to make the least concession that would allow me to accept her argument, therefore she must suffer the results. I tried to help her, she just wouldn't listen.

Are you really posting from Bizarro World, or are you just pretending to?

[Stephoscope]

Finished the thread. I think Lamont is town. None of the arguments against him hold any weight imo, especially the devil sign thing. It's weird that Stephoscope won't just agree to drop it and start scum hunting, in which case Lamont said he wouldn't use it anymore.

No, it's not "weird". The easy thing to do would be for Lamont to promise not to use it any more. I thought there was just an off chance the devil sign meant anything, but he first ignored my remarks twice, and now he seemingly feels he is in a position to negotiate. He is not. I will not make an agreement about "real scumhunting", which we all know is arbitrary, and have him try and disparage my efforts so that he can go and use his devil sign again. It's him who's being unreasonable here, not me.

I think they're scum buddies due to stephoscope's attack of lamont's reaction to the drink and totally ignoring devestation's much more blatant desire to not drink it.
*snip*
Really suspicious that Steph never confronted devestation, considering her reaction to lamont's statement about not wanting to drink it.

In fact, she totally ignores him the entire game. The only time she says anything about or to him is this:

The mod is away, and we haven't yet heard from the backup mod.

I agree we should be careful with voting until we understand what the drink did. I for one will not be casting any vote until we find out what the effects were, or when it becomes very clear that we're not going to.

I think they're avoiding each other because they're scum buddies. Distancing and what not.

vote: Devestation

I'm certainly also willing to vote Steph, but I'd rather shine a spotlight on Devestation.

I know the deadline is looming, but I think both the main wagons right now are townies. Devestation or Stephoscope should be today's lynch.

Lamont has been the most vocal player in this game, and I was quite clear on multiple occasions why I wanted the drink to be consumed, and I hoped Lamont could consume it. I am sure there are numerous players who didn't want the drink to be used, and I am also sure there are quite a number of players whom I haven't said anything about. And, for what it's worth, I don't have any scumbuddies. I think you're really stretching here.

[Stephoscope]

It sounds to me that you want it both ways...
You want him to stop using it so that no longer have a reason to suspect him, and you want him to use the sign, so that it looks obvious that he's scum.

This makes no sense. If he's town, I want him to promise not to use the devil sign, so I can look past that (with the understanding we should lynch him if he goes back on his word). If I won't make such a promise (without trying to turn it against me by making me promise arbitrary things), I can only assume he is scum, in which case I want him lynched.

[Stephoscope]

You've been suspicious of him from the early stages of this game

This isn't really true. In the early stages of the game, I quickly recognized he was the most vocal player and treated him accordingly, but I didn't have reasons to be overly suspicious.

[Stephoscope]

I expect everyone who is not voting, or voting for Lamont, to do something with their vote in their next post, please.

So we're supposed to take Lamont's word on things now that he suddenly claims he's receiving mod PMs and putting "AARGGH" at the end of every post...when he just so happens to be the leading lynch candidate approaching deadline?

And I disagree that lynching him is the same as a no-lynch. The objective of day 1 is not to kill as many people as possible.

I am not dead-set against switching my vote if there is a slam-dunk opportunity, but I am not yet seeing one.

What do you suggest we do if we let Lamont off the hook...and then he keeps on living?

[Stephoscope]

Here's the thing about Lamont's supposed shell effect. What happens if he doesn't say "ARRRGH!" at the end of every post? He gets modkilled, I assume? So if he DOES say it at the end of every post, why would he also die in that case?

And the mod really wouldn't say a word about the effects, leaving Lamont to just report his supposed PMs?

I will support the Naomi wagon because of her misrepresentations of me in 938 and 942, her last two posts...just remember the above when Lamont stays alive because of this play.

Unvote
Vote: Naomi_Saotome

[Stephoscope]

How surprising, the absolute easiest role to fakeclaim. And look--Lamont's calling to give away the real Trilby, or lynch me, either of which would be bad!

(Yes, there's a chance Naomi's claim is legit, but it's a very small one in my opinion. 19 players in the game, and the obvious fakeclaim for anyone who's done a bit of research just so happens to come up first)

[Stephoscope]

How surprising, the absolute easiest role to fakeclaim. And look--Lamont's calling to give away the real Trilby, or lynch me, either of which would be bad!

(Yes, there's a chance Naomi's claim is legit, but it's a very small one in my opinion. 19 players in the game, and the obvious fakeclaim for anyone who's done a bit of research just so happens to come up first)

You seem to forget that the chances of Trilby ACTUALLY being in this game are VERY high.

ARRRGH!

Do I? That's actually the crux of my argument. Players are believing her, she's hoping to get the real Trilby to come out, and you are actually encouraging that.

[Stephoscope]

A cat burglar named Trilby goes to a large mansion called DeFoe Manor, in hopes of an easy score of expensive loot, as the owners had died shortly beforehand. However, Trilby finds himself inexplicably sealed inside the house, along with four other people, who had come to the manor for various reasons of their own.

Soon, they begin to be murdered, one by one. Eventually, Trilby discovers who the killer is. The very first owner of the mansion, Sir Roderick DeFoe, and his son had been murdered one night, and the killer, DeFoe's deformed, regularly abused other son, whom Trilby speculates to be mentally disabled and gives the name "John" out of convenience, later dies of wounds inflicted by Sir Roderick. The ghost of John still haunts the mansion within an African tribal idol, possessing anyone who touches the idol and murdering anyone he comes into contact with, wearing the same blacksmith's apron and welding mask he did when he killed his father and brother.

Trilby and the other two survivors perform a magic ritual to rid the house of the John's ghost; they are able to force John's spirit into his remains and kill him. During the ritual, the house catches fire; Trilby and the other two escape before the house burns down. Trilby allows the other survivors to believe he died in the fire so as to avoid the inevitable police interest and assumes that John DeFoe is finally at rest.

This is the section of Wikipedia's Chzo article that deals with what happened in the Manor.

What is the ONLY safe role listed here for someone to fakeclaim...

...and what are the chances that the first of 19 players to be on the chopping block (for legitimate reasons, at that) would actually have this role?

Come on, guys.

[Stephoscope]

Stop bringing maths into this. I have changed because her claim looks pro-town. And if she's lieing, it shouldn't be hard to find out later on. It looks like you're hanging on to this simply because you are the other option.

I trust the odds a lot more than I trust you or your gut.

[Stephoscope]

@amished bulletproof/1-shot cop

@steph Why wouldn't the mafia want Trilby out of the picture, day one?

Major FoS: Steph

Are you actually enhancing your claim now?

And I have no idea why you are asking me that question. Of course the mafia would want Trilby out of the picture. What does that have to do with me not believing a word you're saying?

[Stephoscope]

Steph I was referring to your post in 1034

It would seem unreal for the mafia to want keep such a player in the game... the longer they keep said player around, the more dangerous it would be for them.

No, It went without saying before...

You're trying really hard to convince everyone that I said something I didn't.

[Stephoscope]

If Naomi's posts in 1038, 1042, and 1044 make sense to anyone else, just let me know.

[Stephoscope]

Amished: "I would have thought you'd be a cop." Naomi: "Oh I'm a cop too, that went without saying."

I have no idea how you people are apparently falling for this, and I can assure you, it gets worse for the town if we keep going the way we are going. Seriously.

[Stephoscope]

really dislike the way Stephoscope is trying to push the lynch on that claim when there isn't a counterclaim.

if there there is someone else who is actually Trilby then Naomi_Saotome is figured out.

Nice way of asking for a counterclaim without actually coming right out and saying it.

I for one don't want the real Trilby to come out and counterclaim, unless he is in fact immune to nightkills and every possible scum attack whatsoever...in which case, he should have claimed already.

[Stephoscope]

Or if Naomi is lying, the real trilby isn't around the thread right now as this is a very recent development.

No, I'm saying that if Trilby is truly safe from scum, the claim should have been made in that player's first few posts.

When Naomi flips scum or when I flip town, just remember who was pushing for a Trilby counterclaim.

[Stephoscope]

Amished, I guess it's up to the apparent real Trilby whether to come out. Your plan sounds good, but obviously now there's the veracity of your roleclaim to consider (though I find yours far more believeable than Naomi's).

I disagree that a bulletproof player should come out and claim right away, because then they lose the opportunity to be targeted at night and waste a night kill of scum.

I concede this point. You are right.

But, I don't for one minute agree there's no evidence that Naomi's roleclaim is bogus. I've gone into detail why it is highly, highly likely that it is.

[Stephoscope]

And I think Lamont has pretty well nailed Naomi to the floor. I won't vote until she posts to defend herself though.

Don't think that I forgot that yesterday you were saying you were going to vote for either me or Naomi...and while I understand Lamont's position, I relentlessly attacked Naomi's claim yesterday.

[Stephoscope]

Yes, I agree, the claim looked

very

poor when she added the cop thing on. But there's no reason not to wait for her result.

This is the second shift in thinking from yesterday to today that needs pointing out...so I'm pointing.

But I agree, there's no reason not to wait to hear from Naomi. Please, no one be hasty with lynchvotes or with the shotgun.

[Stephoscope]

I tend to believe Amished's roleclaim, and it seems as though our best chance to win might be to verify a few players' town alignments one way or another, and then have Amished keep on protecting himself and the others while we quickly kill everyone else and then cruise to victory.

Of course, the apparent ease of doing that casts doubt upon Amished's roleclaim itself, but again, I do tend to believe it's legitimate.

It is definitely possible that I'm totally missing something, too.

[Stephoscope]

@Steph: One problem with your theory on how to win the game.

I was also alerted to the fact that eventually the town will start to go insane, so to speak. To prevent the reality shift into probably a more "bastardized" version of the game probably favoring the evil faction more, I will need to give up some of my protections.

I will not be able to protect as many people as I can now throughout the whole course of the game due to the reality shift that's coming. There will also pretty much always be "confirmed" innocents that I will not be able to protect, especially as the game goes farther on (because of me choosing to prevent a reality shift). Obviously I can't protect the whole town otherwise the scum would damn near never get a kill, but I can protect part of it.

I do not *have* to give up some of my protections, and I have 48 hours in real-time to PM KoC to give up said protections. I *can* choose to ignore the warning or whatever and keep all the protections that I have now. However, with what I remember of the only game with the reality shift in it (the hotel one) it will get bad. In the game, if you stopped moving for too long, the welder just came straight out and killed you, ending the game (probably like a dayvig for scum in mafia terms). Clearly that's not beneficial to the town at all, so I will be giving up some of my power later on unless there's an amazing reason not to do so (which I'm not seeing right now).

I'm still not sure if I completely follow. Can you let us know if:

a) there's more to your role that you don't think it's safe to talk about in mixed company;
b) your role (and things mentioned in it like the reality shifts, etc.) are ambiguous and you're just thinking we'll need to play conservatively;
and/or c) something else?

I do believe your roleclaim, and am not trying to poke holes in it; I'm just still trying to determine if there's some kind of strategy we can use, and wondering if you know that the reality shift would in fact put protected players at risk along with anyone else.

You can ignore any of this that you think would be anti-town to address, and I won't bring it up again...I'm just trying to understand what you did post as best I can.

[Stephoscope]

Welcome, Rock.

[Stephoscope]

So where's Naomi?

[Stephoscope]

Everybody believed the shell actually did burn

Says you.

[Stephoscope]

Also, this day vig is

very

important so everybody should be voting or expressing opinions etc.

My opinion is that I don't like the idea of voting for both dayvig and lynch simultaneously. Our choice of lynch should very much depend on what happens with the dayvig attempt.

[Stephoscope]

I will be using it tonight, provided I'm not lynched before then...
what I want to know is...
Do I investigate my own pick?
OR
Does everyone in the town want to pick?

And I'll throw out a related question:

If Naomi's roleclaim is legitimate, is it best to try and catch a scum with her investigation, or try and clear a helpful townie who may then stay protected?

[Stephoscope]

And I think Lamont has pretty well nailed Naomi to the floor. I won't vote until she posts to defend herself though.

Don't think that I forgot that yesterday you were saying you were going to vote for either me or Naomi...and while I understand Lamont's position, I relentlessly attacked Naomi's claim yesterday.

I think Devestation needs to die based on his shift in thinking. I spent a lot of time yesterday attacking Naomi's claim...and yet I was still on Devestation's list of suspects...now all of a sudden Devestation's giving credit to Lamont for outing Naomi's supposed scumminess, even though in my opinion Lamont hasn't hit Naomi nearly as hard as I was yesterday.

I'm starting to think Naomi's claim really is legitimate, based on posts from both her and the mod today.

I reserve the right to change this, but for now:

Vig vote:

Devestation

[Stephoscope]

It's also worth noting that Devestation never responded to my original statement I posted above.

[Stephoscope]

Some news from our studios, I'll be taking over Shadow Knight's position as anchorman!

Now to read the 60 pages of this fight @_@

Welcome!

MOD: Please prod AJ & Stepho

He doesn't need to prod me, I'm here. Trying to figure out why others apparently aren't seeing my case against Devestation.

[Stephoscope]

I spell it out in 1363. Something's unsettling about how he credits you with the case on Naomi.

[Stephoscope]

I really think Devestation is the right choice for the vig...

[Stephoscope]

My reply is that it was quite an opportunistic statement, and there's no reason to think it's a valid point. It would be pretty easy for scum to sit back and see two townies (I'm not convinced Naomi is town, but it's a possibility) fighting, and then say "well one or the other must be scum", and by the time we've lynched one townie and then the other, the scum may be in trouble, but he and his buddies are almost at the win.

You seem to think I misinterpreted what Devestation posted...I don't believe I did.

[Stephoscope]

Townies OMGUS all the time. I don't trust anyone who claims OMGUSing is a lynch-worthy scumtell.

[Stephoscope]

Please remember that day-drop items must be used THAT DAY, or not at all.

Mod

: Is this a hard and fast rule?

[Stephoscope]

I believe Setael and Naomi to be town, and Devestation and Lamont to be scum.

[Stephoscope]

Why has Stepho dropped off everyone's radar after getting wagoned nicely D1?

Let's answer that later. For now, let's discuss why in the world you want to make a decision about lynching when we don't even know what the vig will reveal.

[Stephoscope]

steph and everybody else not voting for naomi answer this.

Were you watching when I attacked the hell out of Naomi yesterday? I know exactly what seemed off about her case, but I posts from both her and the mod since then, plus the lack of a counterclaim with Amished available to protect (I believe his claim), makes me pretty sure that Naomi's claim is legit.

[Stephoscope]

The way Stepho attacked Lamont is much worse, especially due to his response when Lamont was ''faking'' a PR and his response afterwards.
And that he doesn''t want to be the centre of attention during the vig discussion (Elmo asked what happened to his bandwagon of day 1)

First of all, I'm not trying to lurk. My personal life has been insanely busy and stressful lately, and not only that, but I just want to get this vig over with. I am amazed that people want to keep extending the deadline. We'll be looking at a hasty lynch or a no-lynch, as opposed to carrying out the vig sooner and having more information for a better lynch. I don't mind being a center of attention, but I didn't want to discuss lynches when the vig needed to be done. If I'm going to be a candidate for the vig, so be it, I'm more than willing to defend myself.

I attacked Lamont because I saw no reason for him to be so stubborn about the devil sign. The fake post restriction actually has some justification.

[Stephoscope]

Where did Deves say you are still on his list? Because I can''t find it.

I can't tell what you are responding to here.

Also, the thing is, Elmo called out your wagon. Then you comment that we shouldn''t discuss a lynch yet. But when all the players vote for a lynch, you say nothing. Only when your previous wagon gets pointed out.

Again, my personal life has been crazy lately and I haven't had as much time to read and participate as I would like. I apologize, but I've really only managed to respond to posts that are addressed to me. And, by that point, I felt that we really needed to get the vig out of the way. I was not really a candidate for the vig then...it had nothing to do with me saving myself, and everything to do with making an informed lynch, based on the vig results, without rushing.

When this happened, it seemed that Setael would be vigged. And she, together with The Replacement (and a bit Tox), were the most against you during day 1. However, this was mainly due to her assumed scumpair: you and Deves, who also had a chance of getting shot. So if he''s town, her suspicions could have decreased against you. (This is speculation, and therefore only a thought in my mind which I wanted to say out loud).

To anyone who still thinks Devestation and I are a scum pair--please let's vig Devestation, I believe he is scum, I want him vigged.

Then there is Lamont. You attacked him when Amished said that he might have a PR as scum. You wanted to test this out.
However, later he did show a possible PR. You didn''t believe the reason he gave for this, yet you don''t ask him to not use it. So why was this?

Because I did not believe Naomi's claim at the time, and was attacking her instead of worrying about Lamont. You sound accusatory, so I'd appreciate it if you'd explain how this behavior even makes sense if I were scum.

[Stephoscope]

I am now almost positive that Naomi's claim is legitimate. Anyone who wants to say I'm scummy for *changing my mind based on analysis of information that is available* had better be able to explain.

[Stephoscope]

YES OF COURSE SETAEL AND NAOMI ARE SCUM!!! I can't believe that they're still manipulating all of you with smooth talk.

Both town IMHO.

[Stephoscope]

I say give it to Lamont. He's been posting a lot and seems to want to control the game, so it'll be good to throw a wrench into things to try and determine if he's town or if he has scumbuddies.

This last quote feels off. It seems to imply that Lammont posting a lot and wanting to control the game is a bad thing.

Not at all. It just meant using it to the town's advantage.

Sure, why not. I vote for Lamont. To restate: I believe using it on a player like him is a good idea because it will hopefully make it obvious whether or not he's town aligned, letting us use his enthusiasm for good or letting us get rid of him if he's scum, and make overall scumhunting easier as well.

More of this defense. I dont like it. This Lammont-Steph relation feels kinda forced.

I just don't see what the problem is here. I suggested a course of action based on my analysis of a player. Isn't analyzing what someone's doing in the here and now better than all the "meta" stuff everyone always uses?

iso 25 through iso 30 are blatant active lurking.

No way. Some of it was small talk, but I wanted to know if whatever Xtoxm said was information that could help us out.

iso 33 is again more fixation with Lammont. The reason : the devil smiley. WTF? Yes, this relation is forced, like Steph really wants Lammont to be lynched.

If he'd have just promised not to use it, none of that ever would have happened. Again, I just don't understand why he was that stubborn, and also at that time I explained why I didn't agree to the "deal" he proposed.

For the record, the small paper box I picked up doesn't seem to be doing anything

Why did you pick the word "seem"? Can you tell us what did the mod pmed you when he gave you the small paper box?

The mod PM'ed me nothing, of course. I didn't expect anything, I was just trying to think outside the box.

I was really just kidding about the box. I didn't expect it to be a "real" item, just figured it was worth a try.

Why did you think it was okay to lead people on that you had the box?

I was trying to make a joke. I'm sorry if it failed miserably.

Oh so it was a joke. Bad joke. And scummy.

I wholeheartedly disagree that being creative is scummy. What if the box really was useful?

iso 80 through iso 82 are blatant active lurking.

I will avoid these type of posts in the future if people are going to think they're scummy. I was just making comments on the status of the game.

This suddent Dev hate tingled my scumdar. It feels off.

But look at Devestation's shift, which I explained quite clearly was the reason for my initial suspicion of him!

Hey what happened here? Why do you think Naomi is town now?

The lack of a counter claim, plus the comments from Naomi and the mod today, are all in line with an honest townie who just happened to roleclaim really poorly.

Why has Stepho dropped off everyone's radar after getting wagoned nicely D1?

Let's answer that later. For now, let's discuss why in the world you want to make a decision about lynching when we don't even know what the vig will reveal.

Scummy.

Making decisions about the lynch before all the available information is ready (and as such perhaps delaying the obtaining of said information, i.e. the vig) is scummy, as far as I'm concerned.

Were you watching when I attacked the hell out of Naomi yesterday? I know exactly what seemed off about her case, but I posts from both her and the mod since then, plus the lack of a counterclaim with Amished available to protect (I believe his claim), makes me pretty sure that Naomi's claim is legit.

This sudden change of mind doesnt feel right.

Someone needs to explain to me the problem with changing one's mind. I can't imagine that being stubborn and close-minded is beneficial for the town.

Also, if dev is scum, then steph is prob his scumparnter.

Again, anyone who believes this needs to understand that I wholeheartedly want Devestation vigged today.

[Stephoscope]

I am now almost positive that Naomi's claim is legitimate. Anyone who wants to say I'm scummy for *changing my mind based on analysis of information that is available* had better be able to explain.

I have clearly explained how Naomi is lying here. It is for you to explain what this "new info" is that suddenly brought you to change your mind.

Why are you and Devestation so keen on giving *you* the credit for the attack on Naomi's claim that *I* had so much to do with?

I already said that I changed my mind and determined that Naomi's statements were more in line with an inexperienced townie than with scum. I don't feel any need to waste more time explaining my thoughts on Naomi, given that she is apparently not a candidate for vig or lynch. If you're going to act like I'm scummy, you'd better explain how my actions are in line with what scum might do.

[Stephoscope]

So if Trilby is a "safeclaim", that means that Trilby is not actually a role in the game? I find that idea absurd.

Naomi is Trilby. Lamont is obvscum--and that's not OMGUS, that's noting that he thinks I should be shot just because I changed my mind about something and he supposedly doesn't agree.

To anyone who has not yet voted: there is likely several scum already on my wagon, and there will be one more once Devestation inevitably switches his vig vote to me. Please make the right choice.

[Stephoscope]

I don't see us making a lynch at this time without a major re-alignment, but I am pretty sure that either Stephoscope or Naomi are scum, and within 24 hours I will have made my decision as to which one to vote for.

[Stephoscope]

Can you give a date since when RL got crazy for you?

I don't have an exact date, but you'll notice that I stopped signing up for games a while back. I was consistently playing four at a time for months before.

Yet, you also thought Lamont was lying. But did nothing to question his 'PR' at that time. Even though you were very positive that he was scum, before Naomi claimed due to an example of scum having to use a PR. I see no reason why you'd not question him about a PR you thought was fake.
There are some reasons possible:
-Naomi claimed Trilby. If you are scum and she's not, you want the powerrole out of the game.
-Lamont is your buddy. The first attack was used to give the impression that you two aren't scum together(bussing). But due to Naomi, you could drop your attacks, trying to save one of you or Lamont one day extra.
-Nobody was buying your attacks against Lamont, and some saw them as scummy. To not draw unwanted attention, you attack somebody else: Naomi.

Need more?

Or maybe it's EXACTLY as I explained it, that my attention had shifted from Lamont to Naomi. Are you claiming my attacks on Naomi were unwarranted?

And you're misrepresenting me, saying that I was sure Lamont was scum because of the devil sign thing. I was sure he was scum *because of his being stubborn and not saying he wouldn't use it*. There's a huge difference.

[Stephoscope]

I don't feel any need to waste more time explaining my thoughts on Naomi, given that she is apparently not a candidate for vig or lynch.

wat

She doesn't have votes for the vig, and I tend to believe she is protected. I didn't realize she had a couple votes for the lynch, and I will certainly step in and defend her if need be...but I still really don't want to talk about the lynch until we know what the vig results are.

If it's clear I'm going to be vigged, of course, I will do my best to help the town beforehand (while simultaneously trying to save myself--it'd be a mistake)

[Stephoscope]

I don't see us making a lynch at this time without a major re-alignment, but I am pretty sure that either Stephoscope or Naomi are scum, and within 24 hours I will have made my decision as to which one to vote for.

And if you have read what Deves says later on, you''d know that he has a neutral opinion of Lamont.
Also, he stated in day 1 why he was suspicious of you.

So? This is scummy to me, I completely answered your question and you're acting like I missed something.

[Stephoscope]

You asked me to explain how your behaviour would make sense as scum. I give you reasons. (Comment on your first sentence of the second paragraph)
Your attacks against Naomi weren''t unwarranted, but I find it noteworthy that you didn''t question Lamont when you thought he was lying.
And I never said that you thought he was scum due to the devil sign thing. However, you asked him not to use it. But when he does show a PR, you did not ask him to drop it. Even when you thought he was lying.

I'd arrrrgh-ue *groan* that my 951 and 989 are the strongest criticisms of Lamont's fake PR that were made. Why would I question him directly or ask him to stop? Do you really think he would have? I'm not going to waste my time for the sake of consistency. And again, that fake PR does have a rational explanation, and I didn't believe the devil sign did.

[Stephoscope]

And Lamont still can't explain how changing my mind is supposedly a scumtell.

[Stephoscope]

I don't see us making a lynch at this time without a major re-alignment, but I am pretty sure that either Stephoscope or Naomi are scum, and within 24 hours I will have made my decision as to which one to vote for.

And if you have read what Deves says later on, you''d know that he has a neutral opinion of Lamont.
Also, he stated in day 1 why he was suspicious of you.

So? This is scummy to me, I completely answered your question and you're acting like I missed something.

You did miss something: Deves list of opinions.
Here he states why he has a neutral opinion of Lamont. Nowhere does he mention his attacks against Naomi. Therefore, I think that your reason for vig-voting Deves is invalid.
So state why I''m wrong with this.

My case against Devestation is in 1363 and 1364. Note how he credits Lamont. I fail to see how what you are bringing up is relevant.

[Stephoscope]

You asked me to explain how your behaviour would make sense as scum. I give you reasons. (Comment on your first sentence of the second paragraph)
Your attacks against Naomi weren''t unwarranted, but I find it noteworthy that you didn''t question Lamont when you thought he was lying.
And I never said that you thought he was scum due to the devil sign thing. However, you asked him not to use it. But when he does show a PR, you did not ask him to drop it. Even when you thought he was lying.

I'd arrrrgh-ue *groan* that my 951 and 989 are the strongest criticisms of Lamont's fake PR that were made. Why would I question him directly or ask him to stop? Do you really think he would have? I'm not going to waste my time for the sake of consistency. And again, that fake PR does have a rational explanation, and I didn't believe the devil sign did.

Why would you have asked? To prove that he was lying? The devil sign was farfetched, but this wasn''t as there was clearly a PR. You thought he was scum and you thought that he was lying about the ''aaarrrgh'' PR. Yet, you didn''t ask anything about it. Naomi hadn''t even claimed yet when Lamont first started. So your argument that you were grilling Naomi doesn''t make sense now as well.
No, I don''t think he would have stopped. But why should that matter? Weren''t you trying to get him to stop with the devil sign, even when he had shown he wouldn''t? In that case, you also tried him to stop. But when the ''real'' PR came, of which you thought it was a lie, you didn''t. And I see no reason why that is.
As for his explanation, that came day 2. So that doesn''t explain why you didn''t question him when he first started this ''PR''.

Again, I wasn't going to waste my time for the sake of "consistency", not when I was focused on Naomi. You're trying too hard here (just like you were with my steroids example), hopefully everyone else can see it, and that's all I have to say about this.

[Stephoscope]

And you (Stepho) still haven''t explained what comments have made you think that Naomi''s claim is true.

Naomi's entire body of work and the mod's 1206, along with the lack of a counterclaim with apparent protection available.

[Stephoscope]

I just read ALL Stepho's posts from his profile. He was DEFINITELY lurking in this game; i.e. posting in other games and not posting here.

Check it out yourself:

1) ISO Stepho
2) Hit "Profile"
3) Click the small link "View all posts by Stepho"

You can see him posting on Wednesday 24th all over the place but no "Chzo Mafia"...

This makes his "I got busy" defense alot of horsecrap.

Just stopping by to say this is BULL.

I have made time for every game I am in, every time I have been able to log on. I most certainly did post in this game on Wednesday the 24th, during the exact time when I posted in other games as well. Go ahead and check!

Guess Lamont threw that turd on the table thinking I wouldn't be able to drop by and call him on it...

[Stephoscope]

For the love of God...

I am Janine. I am an investigative reporter, and am Innocent.

I can check one player each night, and learn his or her role and alignment.

I investigated Naomi last night. Her roleclaim was legitimate. She is Trilby.

Please protect me tonight.

[Stephoscope]

My PM provides my role and my alignment. I learn others' role and alignment when I investigate, as I made clear.

It should be obvious why I investigated Naomi.

I don't think it's WIFOM to say my actions between yesterday and today would have made no sense if I were scum. Why would I have tried so hard to save Naomi after my attacks on her yesterday?

[Stephoscope]

3. Innocents win if they destroy all Evil players. The Evil characters win when they have a majority, and are deemed powerful enough to over-power any and all remaining factions.

[Stephoscope]

3. Innocents win if they destroy all Evil players. The Evil characters win when they have a majority, and are deemed powerful enough to over-power any and all remaining factions.

How nice of you.
If this is true, there are no powerroles.
Three scum caught already then.

Are you out of your mind?

[Stephoscope]

3. Innocents win if they destroy all Evil players. The Evil characters win when they have a majority, and are deemed powerful enough to over-power any and all remaining factions.

How nice of you.
If this is true, there are no powerroles.
Three scum caught already then.

Are you out of your mind?

Nope.

I think you are, if you're convinced that:

- that rule actually spells out that there are no power roles
- the roleclaims of Amished, Naomi, and myself are all false (I am 99% convinced that they are all legit)
- a game like this would have no town power roles

Come on now.

[Stephoscope]

In my opinion, only scum would push for a Stepho vig right now. Yes, there's a chance he's lying. Only scum know for sure if he is or not. However, if he's telling the truth and we vig him we have lost a key power role. No townie will be sure enough he is lying to push his vig through.

FOS: zazier and xtoxm

@Stepho - is there anything in your role pm that indicates your power will diminish at any point like amished claimed his will? Also, once amished claimed yesterday, why didn't you claim (especially when it looked like you might be the deadline lynch)?

No, I have nothing like that. And I was certainly prepared to claim if put at L-1. I was waiting accordingly this time around too, but decided it was time to go ahead and claim when people started saying "just try it" and things like that with no one having brought up that I should have a chance to claim.

[Stephoscope]

ZazieR. You need to knock it off. Whether or not I get vigged, not everyone here is a vanilla townie like you supposedly are, and we're not going to go through what it may or may not say in everyone's individual PM, okay? Are you trying to hand the scum our power roles, not all of which can be protected, I'm sure, on a silver platter?

[Stephoscope]

ZazieR. You need to knock it off. Whether or not I get vigged, not everyone here is a vanilla townie like you supposedly are, and we're not going to go through what it may or may not say in everyone's individual PM, okay? Are you trying to hand the scum our power roles, not all of which can be protected, I'm sure, on a silver platter?

Nope. I''m not sold on your claim.
Anyway, what''s your flavour?

I don't care whether or not you're sold on my claim, you're not going to go around fishing out what's in everyone else's PM.

Paraphrasing the rest of my flavor: I am knowledgeable about the true activities of "the Optimology organization". I wish to find anyone who would do harm to me "and fellow Innocents".

[Stephoscope]

Ok, in case if it''s allignment, Stepho, why did you claim allignment?

Because it is spelled out in my role PM, and because I specifically receive alignments as well as roles in my investigations, so I imagine they're pretty important. Perhaps there are roles in this game that might not be clear as to whether they are town or scum aligned? Just a thought.

And is it really that hard to wrap your mind around the fact that there are (by all indications) Innocent roles with Innocent alignment? Not only does everything (not just my roleclaim) support this, but also, you wouldn't think twice if you were a Townie with Town alignment, no? Innocent happens to work as both a noun and an adjective here.

[Stephoscope]

@Stepho

For the love of God...

I am Janine. I am an investigative reporter, and am Innocent.

I can check one player each night, and learn his or her role and alignment.

I investigated Naomi last night. Her roleclaim was legitimate. She is Trilby.

Please protect me tonight.

So what is Naomi's role? And why didn't you claim it in this post?
Because I'd expect that your role would be 'investigative reporter' if your claim is true. So please explain.

Technically Naomi's role may be "gentleman thief", then. She can verify, I'm sure.

[Stephoscope]

EBWOP: Infamous gentleman thief.

[Stephoscope]

Dev came about as close to quoting the Town role pm as he could without getting modkilled. Unless scum were given copies of it (and why the mod would do that rather than just quote the town role pm in the rules is beyond me) then he is town.

While I certainly wasn't a fan of everyone starting to claim vanilla...is there anyone else who has *already* claimed vanilla who can confirm this?

Devestation's statement was believeable, but fairly generic.

[Stephoscope]

@Stepho

For the love of God...

I am Janine. I am an investigative reporter, and am Innocent.

I can check one player each night, and learn his or her role and alignment.

I investigated Naomi last night. Her roleclaim was legitimate. She is Trilby.

Please protect me tonight.

So what is Naomi's role? And why didn't you claim it in this post?
Because I'd expect that your role would be 'investigative reporter' if your claim is true. So please explain.

Hi Stepho

Hi! I already answered that.

Also, Elmo is a confirmed Innocent, right? Elmo, what's your opinion on Devestation's roleclaim?

[Stephoscope]

2283 and 2284, dear.

[Stephoscope]

Don''t call me dear *glare*
You''ll regret it if you do it one more time.

So in other words, you''re saying that Trilby is her role?

Just answer with yes or no as punishment for calling me dear *glare*

I am not going to do that because my PM does not say "The name is THIS and the role is THAT and the alignment is THAT". I have already mentioned, carefully and in different places, all the relevant information in my PM...and if the mod was at all consistent, Naomi will be able to verify it.

[Stephoscope]

Also, you didn''t answer why you didn''t claim back then that extra part.

I didn't see a need to do so (rightly or wrongly, I was thinking of "Trilby" as her role), and certainly didn't want to risk a modkill. But it shouldn't matter, since Naomi hasn't even been back, has she? So it's not like I'm reading her and making stuff up, or something. She should be able to verify my investigation.

[Stephoscope]

I am not trying to be confusing. Naomi's role is either "Trilby" or "Infamous Gentleman Thief." I learned nothing else about her that could be considered a "role". I am quite sure she can verify that my posts reflect what's in her PM.

My PM specifically contains the words "and fellow Innocents", and indicates quite clearly that I am pro-town.

Before you all rush to lynch me based on how difficult it is to communicate my PM information without being modkilled, please note:

1. There has been no cop counter-claim (other than Naomi's one-shot ability which I have no reason to doubt is legitimate)
2. There has been no Janine counter-claim
3. I am QUITE SURE that some of you pro-town players out there have specific, named roles and don't buy this "no power roles" stuff
4. I will be able to demonstrate my roleclaim, and if Naomi and I work together we're guaranteed at least one result (there might be one scum roleblocker...there can't possibly be two, can there?)
5. WHY THE HELL would I have put myself what I went through in regards to Naomi's claim?
6. The mod promised this game would be tough, and gave us a shotgun/shell combination that killed the user. And you think he's gonna make it easy for you all to know my roleclaim is legitimate?

I don't know what else I can say. I will answer any questions as best I can...but most of the information is already out there, although I've had to be a bit creative...I was NOT trying to be confusing, just making sure I didn't wind up modkilled.

[Stephoscope]

I am not trying to be confusing. Naomi's role is either "Trilby" or "Infamous Gentleman Thief." I learned nothing else about her that could be considered a "role". I am quite sure she can verify that my posts reflect what's in her PM.

No. What you have provided is

flavor

.

Role

is like "cop, doc, bomb" and such like that and

alignment

is "town, mafia, neutral" and such like that.

If you want me to believe anything of what you have said in your defense, please answer this:

1) Why haven't you provided

flavor

,

role

&

alignment

for Naomi (so far you have only provided flavor)?

2) What is Naomi's

role

&

alignment

?

I SERIOUSLY don't know how to answer this. I have already shared what I learned about Naomi. IF I HAD TO GUESS RIGHT NOW, I would say that her role is Trilby, her alignment is Innocent and/or Pro-Town, and her flavor is (note these exact words, because Naomi should be able to confirm) "Infamous gentleman thief". But, AGAIN, this was not spelled out for me in the PM. I have done the best I can.

[Stephoscope]

There is absolutely no role like the ones you have suggested. Naomi, please show up...

[Stephoscope]

The words "Anti-Spirit" are also in my PM.

[Stephoscope]

EBWOP: The words "Anti-Spirit" are in my PM about Naomi. Not my role PM.

[Stephoscope]

I have posted everything I learned about Naomi.

If I were faking, I'm sure she'd come by and invalidate my claim. As it is, I'm just hoping she returns...

[Stephoscope]

*SIGH*


I've only pointed that out... repeatedly... all game

I think you're town now...sorry for my trying to lynch you...and I now want a lynch of someone who hasn't claimed and seems unaware of the various pro-town PMs.

I'll have more tomorrow.

[Stephoscope]

I am not lying, and AGAIN, the PM is not specific as to what exactly is my role and alignment, and what are Naomi's. Everything I know is pretty much out there now.

[Stephoscope]

Look, I know that I am Janine, and an investigative reporter, and have fellow Innocents. I know that Naomi is Trilby, and is an infamous gentleman thief. And I was specifically told I learn roles and alignments when I investigate...but the results are not clear as to what's what.

I am in disbelief. Everything I have done in this game is consistent with my role. I am sorry that roleclaiming is difficult, but mine is legitimate as is Naomi's.

[Stephoscope]

Look, I know that I am Janine, and an investigative reporter, and have fellow Innocents. I know that Naomi is Trilby, and is an infamous gentleman thief. And I was specifically told I learn roles and alignments when I investigate...but the results are not clear as to what's what.

I am in disbelief. Everything I have done in this game is consistent with my role. I am sorry that roleclaiming is difficult, but mine is legitimate as is Naomi's.

Then state what Naomi's allignment is, what the PM about 'anti-spirit' says and why Naomi didn't claim 'infamous'.

I don't know why Naomi didn't claim "infamous". Ask her.

AGAIN, AGAIN, my PM does not specifically state "This is the alignment:". EVERYTHING I learned has been stated. Are you trying to get me modkilled?

[Stephoscope]

I am not a "Vanillager". I have the abilities I claimed. My PM specifically states "and fellow Innocents", and I am quite obviously a pro-town role.

[Stephoscope]

My role PM specifically states that I am on the side of fellow Innocents.

I am clearly pro-town based on my role and PM.

My PM about Naomi's role uses both the terms "pro-town" and "anti-Spirit".

How is it not completely freaking obvious that I investigated Naomi last night and was doing everything possible to clear her today?

[Stephoscope]

My role PM specifically states that I am on the side of fellow Innocents.

However, Innocents apparently aren''t, as it doesn''t mention ''fellow Innocents''. Naomi has stated this as well.

My PM about Naomi's role uses both the terms "pro-town" and "anti-Spirit".

Uhum?!
Didn''t you say ''Innocent and/or pro-town'' first? And now, you don''t mention the Innocent in this post. The reason for that is?

I said that was just a GUESS in regards to "alignment". The word "Innocent" does not appear in my PM about Naomi. But it appears in mine. The words "pro-town" and "anti-Spirit" specifically appear in my PM about Naomi.

I am in disbelief that I am the front runner for being lynched based on only perceived inconsistency with my PMs. Is every single thing I have done not in line with my role?

I think it's stating the obvious to say that all of this terrible outing of Innocent roles means that it's pretty clear who are the power roles or scum. Let me take a crack at finding scum tonight. If I lie, kill me.

[Stephoscope]

Devil's advocate time. Let's say for the sake of argument I'm scum. I'm not, but let's say I am.

1. Why the hell would I have done what I did in regards to Naomi, who is Trilby?
2. You know what I'd do if I were scum in this position? I'd sacrifice a fellow scum to try and prove myself. Why not count on that and leave me be for now?
3. It's worth noting that Pyromaniac claimed that Naomi said I'm scum. She did no such thing. My PM specifically says "infamous gentleman thief", and because Naomi's apparently says "gentleman thief" only, you think that is lynch worthy?

I find it amusing that the mod warned us all that this would be hard, and yet some of you want to lynch me based on crap, not looking at the big picture.

[Stephoscope]

1. WIFOM
2. WIFOM, you could think you could save her and confirm yourself.
3. Absolutely.

"WIFOM" doesn't invalidate my argument. Pretend I'm scum--you need to tell me WHY THE HELL i would have played the way that i have played.

[Stephoscope]

@Stepho

If you thought you were Innocent alligned and you received a result that doesn''t state Innocent regarding your investigation according to you. Then how come you didn''t think that you two were different alligned?

It is very clear from my PM that I am a pro-town role.

I was specifically told that Naomi (Trilby) is pro-town and anti-Spirit. (Please note that I was the very first in this game to use the term anti-Spirit; if that doesn't mean anything to you, it certainly does to some others here.)

I saw absolutely no reason to believe that we were different alignments.

[Stephoscope]

I've been putting all of my time and energy into defending myself...is there a handy summary of the case on dramonic anywhere? I will decide by deadline whether to support his wagon.

[Stephoscope]

I investigated Pablo Molinero. He is an Innocent.

[Stephoscope]

I investigated Pablo Molinero. He is an Innocent.

Why Pablo? And what about allignment?

I chose someone who I didn't think was particularly cleared, but also who I hadn't publicly focused a lot of attention on, in case the scum has some way a target can be protected.

My PM was very concise, and I've included all information from it. There is no statement like "the role is THIS and the alignment is THAT" whatsoever.

[Stephoscope]

I already told you.

[Stephoscope]

I have already told you exactly what was in my first investigation, and exactly what was in my second.

Just a suggestion: since Devestation and Pablo apparently have the exact same roles, why don't you ask Naomi what she thinks of what I'm saying?

[Stephoscope]

I have already told you exactly what was in my first investigation, and exactly what was in my second.

Just a suggestion: since Devestation and Pablo apparently have the exact same roles, why don't you ask Naomi what she thinks of what I'm saying?

So you received no allignment according to you? Noted.
And Naomi claimed 1-shot cop. You claimed cop who also receives allignments. So why do you suggest that?

Because I'm guessing that Naomi received a similar PM to mine, and that alignment would be redundant when someone has the role of an Innocent.

[Stephoscope]

Hi. Again, I believe alignment is redundant and not included when we are talking about a player who as AN INNOCENT.

And, as I mentioned before, my investigation of Naomi resulted in finding out she was pro-town, and Anti-Spirit. I believe I was the first one in the game to use the "anti-Spirit" term.

And if none of that matches with your role PM, ZazieR, you have some 'splainin to do.

[Stephoscope]

EBWOP as=is

[Stephoscope]

That does not answer my question. If Innocent isn''t mentioned in a PM you claimed to have gotten which according to you includes allignment, then why claim that your allignment is Innocent?

My role PM, the first one I received, contains the words "and fellow Innocents". I interpreted this to mean I am Innocent.

My PM regarding Naomi says she is Trilby, and pro-town and anti-Spirit, and the infamous gentleman thief. It does not use the word Innocent.

My PM regarding Pablo states that he is "an Innocent."

Please note that Naomi and Amished are the only claimed power roles, and I don't think they would agree with you that using the term "anti-Spirit" first doesn't mean much.

So, ZazieR, how do you feel about Xtoxm flipping scum?

[Stephoscope]

Please note that Naomi and Amished are the only claimed power roles, and I don't think they would agree with you that using the term "anti-Spirit" first doesn't mean much.

Please explain this.

So, ZazieR, how do you feel about Xtoxm flipping scum?

Didn''t expect him to be scum.
Why are you asking?

I believe, based on a statement from Amished earlier and my investigation results, that both of them, and perhaps others, have "anti-Spirit" in their roles. For whatever reason, I do not. I appear to be aligned with Innocents.

And, I'm just saying, you and Xtoxm seemed to be getting along famously yesterday.

[Stephoscope]

Because of this (and what Steph has posted on page 96 about Naomi being anti-spirit) I fully believe Steph's claim, and now believe Naomi to be cleared as well through Steph's investigation.

You can ask Amished what he thinks. I do not believe the "anti-Spirit" terminology was used before then.

And, if it wasn't obvious, my point was that it's very easy to imagine two scums working together to try and get a town power role lynched. That being you and Xtoxm, if it still wasn't clear.

[Stephoscope]

You can ask Amished what he thinks. I do not believe the "anti-Spirit" terminology was used before then.

You are the only one who has! As it''s very likely that nobody knows, you can just make it up.

I didn't make up anything. I believe that terminology to be in certain others' PMs. If I'm wrong, so be it.

And, if it wasn't obvious, my point was that it's very easy to imagine two scums working together to try and get a town power role lynched. That being you and Xtoxm, if it still wasn't clear.

Soft pushing is noted.
Also, Tox was SK. So your point is invalid.

I didn't "soft" anything. Anyone who read what I wrote understood exactly what I meant. You just led me on so you could say "oh look scumtell", although the irony is that you did that in quite a "soft" fashion if I may say so myself.

And my point is most certainly not "invalid", given that I have no idea what the scum might know and which players may be communicating behind the scenes. Do you?

[Stephoscope]

I didn't make up anything. I believe that terminology to be in certain others' PMs. If I'm wrong, so be it.

Why do you think this?

Because I was given that terminology in my investigation of Naomi, and then Amished seemed to recognize it.

I didn't "soft" anything. Anyone who read what I wrote understood exactly what I meant. You just led me on so you could say "oh look scumtell", although the irony is that you did that in quite a "soft" fashion if I may say so myself.

Yes. I know exactly what you are saying. Which is why I can see that you are soft pushing. You are hinting that Tox and me were scum, working together to get a town powerrole lynched. So why no vote if you think this?

I brought up the possibility, and it was no subtle "hint". I'll vote when I am comfortable voting, as I am sure you will as well.

And my point is most certainly not "invalid", given that I have no idea what the scum might know and which players may be communicating behind the scenes. Do you?

No, I don''t know with whom scum can communicate. But a SK is a third party role. It opposes scum and town. There is no sense that scum would know who the SK is as they can destroy one of their enemies. I''ve never seen scum who knew who a third party role is. Do you agree?

I don't think I've seen that situation, but I am certainly not the most experienced player. And, the "anti-Spirit" term makes me think that all the scum are Spirits (as there was no "anti-anything else")...so they may well be aligned and/or in communication.

[Stephoscope]

Scum hasn''t flipped yet, so we can''t be sure.
Are you basing your suspicions of me on an assumption?

No, you both trying to lynch a pro-town player and Xtoxm's flipping scum are not "assumptions".

Also, it's admittedly pretty WIFOM to analyze Xtoxm's statement about "playing as vig" (which definitely shouldn't have been allowed), but that obviously could have been an attempt to make you look good and have me lynched after all.

[Stephoscope]

EBWOP: I am defining Xtoxm as scum for now, despite his being a serial killer, because he is identified as a Spirit...and I would expect peoples' role to be anti-scum, not anti-serial killer.

[Stephoscope]

No, you both trying to lynch a pro-town player and Xtoxm's flipping scum are not "assumptions".

You are very scummy, and we''ll soon find out if you are trapped in a lie or not. One answer, and we have at least one scum caught.

What are you talking about? Pablo? He's an Innocent, as in vanilla...if he's not, lynch me.

I don't think I have been scummy...I have been doing the absolute best I can with the PMs I have been given.

[Stephoscope]

What are you talking about? Pablo? He's an Innocent, as in vanilla...if he's not, lynch me.

I'm not saying I don't believe your claim, but I don't like this post. It proves nothing. It

almost

sounds like a scum ploy to appear as town.

Can you see how it makes no sense here?

No, I was trying to clarify exactly what Zazier was talking about (I'm still not sure), and make it very very clear that I investigated Pablo...he is Innocent as in vanilla, not any special role that may be aligned with Innocents.

[Stephoscope]

What are you talking about? Pablo? He's an Innocent, as in vanilla...if he's not, lynch me.

You would be happy being lynched if he were a power role?

It's irrelevant, as he is not a power role.

[Stephoscope]

Stepho, did you not even consider clearing Pablo as town-aligned without revealing he's vanilla? If you are telling the truth and are our cop, you're making it far too easy for scum to pinpoint the power roles.

Don't forget I was at risk of being vigged or lynched yesterday. It's not being selfish for me to make sure to save myself; I don't know how valuable other power roles may be, but I know mine is valuable and I'm confident Amished will keep me protected. Any townie whose role I uncover makes one more person who can be confident I'm telling the truth, and any scum I may find puts us one step closer to the win.

That said, if I'm not in danger any longer, if I uncover another good guy I'll just announce that he or she is town-aligned, and I'll only share the role if everyone wants to hear it.

[Stephoscope]

Any townie

whose role I uncover makes one more person who can be confident I'm telling the truth, and any scum I may find puts us one step closer to the win.

Regarding the bolded, please state why you chose that wording.

I just meant any good guy in general; you'll notice I specifically used "good guy" later in my post.

[Stephoscope]

So, given that Pablo was a vanilla and had already been identified as such before the modkill, how come he was apparently asking to be protected? Maybe the matches are not as "useless" as he claimed?

...but they'd probably be used today, right?

I'm just not sure I follow why he put in that 1pt text to begin with.

[Stephoscope]

I did not take the matches.

Well, if the mod is correct and no one will admit to taking them, that means nothing.

And what pyromaniac would avoid matches?

[Stephoscope]

It makes me scratch my head a little bit that you apparently were in this thread and got the matches via PM without actually making a post here that day...but unless there is a counterclaim regarding the matches, I don't see any reason not to believe you.

[Stephoscope]

Setael, would you be willing to try to give the matches to Elmo?

We still have him another day, right?

[Stephoscope]

Why do some players think that Setael might be speaking the truth?

The whole "can only be used by someone at endgame" is certainly mighty convenient, given that Elmo is our confirmed townie and he's apparently not going to make it that far. However, to her credit, Setael offered to try giving them to Elmo right away, and has followed through on that (even when not nearly everyone has chimed in about it)

All indications are that both Pablo and Setael were told *something* about the matches, so there's no reason to think Elmo won't also be told the same thing if/when the matches are in his possession.

It's not outside the realm of possibility that both Pablo and Setael were lying about the matches for perceived pro-town (and/or self-serving) reasons...so Elmo, if there's some reason why you shouldn't speak up about the matches, please just tell us "no comment" instead of lying. You don't have to worry about being scummy.

[Stephoscope]

I don't have anything.

[Stephoscope]

The lies:
-Innocent isn''t allignment. When this was pointed out, it got changed to ''anti-spirit''. Also, in this game, it''s also very strange if somebody''s allignment would be ''pro-town''.

That's a misrepresentation of things I have said. My role PM specifically states "fellow Innocents". My Naomi investigation PM specifically states both "pro-town" and "anti-Spirit", strange as you may think it to be. I have been entirely consistent, and nothing has "changed".

-Naomi states that her role is ''gentelman thief'', which is what Stepho claimed before changing it to ''infamous gentleman thief''

That I said "gentleman thief" first is irrelevant, since I EBWOP'ed it a minute later because I forgot the "infamous" part. My PM states "infamous gentleman thief". If I were making up something safe, don't you think I would have stopped at "gentleman thief"? A quick Google search for "Trilby gentleman thief" gives back lots of results, but searching for "Trilby infamous gentleman thief" doesn't seem to bring back anything with that choice of words except for this game itself. And was Pablo's untimely death not evidence that I'm not lying about my investigations? I don't believe that Pablo hinted at his Innocent role, which is one reason why I chose to investigate him...because I thought he might be scum.

-No role PM so far claimed has ''an fellow Innocents''. All the others have claimed ''and fellow humans''.

This is basically it regarding Stepho.

That the PMs are apparently inconsistent does not make me a liar. And Amished (who seems to be the most familiar with the series) has already described why the choice of wording may be deliberate and make sense.

[Stephoscope]

Mod: Are the matches transferable?

[Stephoscope]

I do have something I need to post. I received a couple pms from the mod after asking for clarification. The matches are not transferable. I have to keep them and I must be alive at end game for a town win. If I'm not alive at endgame the best the town can get is a draw. The mod also confirmed that the scum do not need the matches to win.

OMGOSH, I'm calling horseshit here. I need to know right now why set shouldn't be lynched immediately.

It is conceivable that the Manor needs to be burned down to win.

[Stephoscope]

It's also worth noting that what Setael is claiming is in line with Pablo's request for protection.

[Stephoscope]

My strong gut feel is that Setael is telling the truth. I have thought she was town all game, Pablo's request for protection is in line with what she claims, it's definitely possible that the Manor has to be burnt down to win, and her point about this game is definitely valid...go and read rule 13 again.

IMHO we should lynch someone like dramonic today, and I can investigate Setael tonight if need be.

[Stephoscope]

Stepho, the day that rules lie for the first time, will be on the 30th of februari.

And yet things seem to be going exactly like the rules said they would all along.

[Stephoscope]

In case you didn't understand what I was talking about, win conditions don't lie.

So your buddy Xtoxm flipped scum and you had nothing to say about it, then Pablo flipped Innocent, just like I said he would, and you had nothing to say about it. What will you have to say if Setael is lynched and flips town?

[Stephoscope]

What did I have to say about those deaths then?
Setael is lying. There has been reasons mentioned why.

What do you have to say about the win condition argument?

I think you are clinging to traditional mafia strategies when we've specifically been told that we shouldn't. Normally I might go along with a Setael lynch to at least get you to knock it off if she flipped town, but based on what she has claimed, the stakes are too high. If she is scum, we can get her later.

I almost hate to investigate her tonight, because I'm pretty sure she's telling the truth, but if the town consensus is that I should, I will.

[Stephoscope]

Once again, the win condition is stated in the OP. It doesn't match with what Setael is claiming. Rules don't lie, players do.
Also, the funny thing is that you are mentioning rule 13:

13. There will be crazy shit, descriptions of unpleasant actions, and things you may well not understand at all in this game. It is not intended to be particularly fair, nice, or easy for the town/innocents. You may be required to actually think,

instead of playing follow the *insert role/s here*

Get used to it. ithurtsithurtsirthurts

May I know why you didn't point that out, while you have claimed an investigation role and want to investigate Setael if that's what the town wants to see what her allignment is?

Also, answer the first question of my previous post.

Don't pick and choose what part of the rules you want to listen to. You're quoting a rule saying there will be things you don't understand, and then asking about things that you don't understand. I've provided plenty of evidence that you should listen to me, although admittedly my defense of Setael has nothing to do with my role, just my gut feel that she is telling the truth.

And my point about the deaths is that you had nothing to say about them; you didn't stop to question yourself when you and Xtoxm were busy attacking me together and then Xtoxm flipped scum, and you haven't given me any credit for the evidence that I investigated Pablo.

[Stephoscope]

Xtoxm was SK. He's an independant role, so he doesn't care who dies as long as it isn't him. I've seen enough reasons why you are lying and I've pointed them out.
As for Pablo, it doesn't prove anything.

Nothing is "proven" in mafia until someone flips, but explain to me how I'm lying when I clearly tried to save Naomi after trying to have her lynched the day before, and there's been no counterclaim and it's absurd to think there'd be a Chzo game without Trilby. Explain how I cleared Pablo and then he flipped Innocent, just like I said he was, after his having hinted nothing of the sort. Explain how there has been no Janine counterclaim and no cop counterclaim (other than Naomi's, whose roleclaim is legitimate) and every damned thing shows that I'm telling the truth, and yet you continue to harp on PM stuff that the mod has no obligation to keep consistent, and misrepresentations of what I have said. It is really becoming tiresome. I am going to investigate someone tonight, and if I'm still alive tomorrow, I'll report the results and I have 100% confidence that I'll be exactly right. How many more times will I need to do this for you to believe me? Seriously? Do you know what the chances are that I would guess right three, four times in a row?

Rules don't lie. Meaning that the win con for town is to kill every Evil player. Not to kill every Evil player and to burn down the house. It also doesn't make sense to get a draw if we don't burn down the house or a loss.
Reasons have been stated why she's very likely lying. You haven't commented on any of them. You are basing this all on one rule, while another rule states that she's lying.

The rules didn't say anything about the win condition not changing, they didn't say anything about blood that would kill you if you drank it, they didn't say anything about a shotgun that it wasn't smart to use, and yet they DID say this would be a different type of game. I am not "basing this all on one rule", I am basing it on me thinking Setael is town and Pablo's request for protection and the fact that I can investigate Setael tonight if it will make everyone feel better.

[Stephoscope]

Also, for those interested, rule 13 is a nice rule:

13. There will be crazy shit, descriptions of unpleasant actions, and things you may well not understand at all in this game. It is not intended to be particularly fair, nice, or easy for

the town/innocents

. You may be required to actually think, instead of playing follow the *insert role/s here* Get used to it. ithurtsithurtsirthurts

I just love the bolded. Don't you guys agree, Naomi, Stepho and Amished? Shall we also look at rule 3?:

3.

Innocents

win if they destroy all Evil players. The Evil characters win when they have a majority, and are deemed powerful enough to over-power any and all remaining factions.

Vote Naomi

Just to make this perfectly clear in case some bandwagon might start up, Naomi is Trilby. She claimed it, I investigated her, her claim is legitimate. There has been no Trilby counterclaim, and it's absurd to think there'd be a Chzo game without Trilby, who is, you know, the protagonist of the whole thing. Please do not vote for Naomi. Thank you.

[Stephoscope]

@Steph: I'm willing to lynch Zaz right now, but if we lynch Set (which I'm also willing to do) would you investigate her? This would help clear up a lot of things for me, and probably for the whole town. You'll get one of my protections.

I would prefer to lynch dramonic, because I think he's the most likely to be scum. I'm not crazy about a Zazier lynch, because while it's possible that she's scum, I think it's more likely that she's just insane. I absolutely do not want to lynch Setael, I think it's a far better idea to lynch someone else and then let me investigate her.

If everyone is convinced that Zazier and Setael need our scrutiny, then please, let's lynch Zazier and leave Setael for tomorrow. But the ideal situation, at least for me, would be to lynch dramonic, then let me investigate some unnamed person, hopefully catch scum, and then let them squirm for a while tomorrow.

[Stephoscope]

Hmm. I'll admit that on the surface the win condition, which the mod has specifically addressed, seems pretty clear--but is there a chance that burning down the house is absolutely necessary to destroy all Evil characters?

Pablo was a CONFIRMED TOWNIE, and he requested protection when he got those matches. Setael is doing the same thing, and claiming the reason. We really need to be careful here.

[Stephoscope]

.for Set to say SHE has to live for this to occur is so over the top scummy

I do acknowledge this, but Pablo wanted to live too and he's confirmed...

[Stephoscope]

Check your scum QT and you'll find all the answers for you there
It's not hard to fake claim and adapt the way you play to it if scum know that there are only Innocents. This also gives you the chance to have every 'investigation' correct.

Luckily, there are several of us who know that there aren't "only Innocents". Sorry you supposedly didn't get a sweet role. Maybe next time.

All those things are based upon game mechanics. Those have nothing to do with win conditions. Invalid comparison.
Logic shows Setael is lying. We don't know why Pablo requested doc protection as the matches can do something different than what Setael is claiming. And you are very likely lying about your role.

(Will post more when I get back)

Now, I certainly know you need to be careful about trusting anyone in mafia, but is there ANYONE you think ISN'T lying? Because the guy you seemed to like most of all flipped scum, and the conspiracy that would have to be pulled off for all the claimed power roles to actually be scum, which you seem to believe, boggles the mind. And keep in mind that I know with 100% certainty that both Naomi and I are town, and I would be absolutely shocked if Amished's claim isn't legitimate.

[Stephoscope]

Did the shotgun shell go poof at the end of the day? No. No it didn't.

The game may hang in the balance, and I can investigate Setael tonight if everyone insists--there's no way she should be the lynch. If she is town, there is no reason for her to be lying about the matches. If she is scum, WE CAN LYNCH HER TOMORROW.

[Stephoscope]

Did the shotgun shell go poof at the end of the day? No. No it didn't.

The game may hang in the balance, and I can investigate Setael tonight if everyone insists--there's no way she should be the lynch. If she is town, there is no reason for her to be lying about the matches. If she is scum, WE CAN LYNCH HER TOMORROW.

You really haven't looked at my reasons why I think she's lying, now have you?

If she's lying, WE CAN LYNCH HER TOMORROW.

I have absolutely read everything you have posted...and I have found you to be consistently wrong.

[Stephoscope]

Why is everyone obsessed with lynching me tommorow? I mean, I could ask Steph to investigate me, but most of you don't trust him (and he's better off investigating the psycho-Zaz)

This is a strange post, given that there hasn't been all that much talk about lynching you, and I don't feel any less trusted than anyone else really.

[Stephoscope]

It's pretty safe to say that Zaz is of opposite alignment of Steph and Setael.

I don't agree with that at all. If I had to guess, I would guess all three of us are town, although I am certainly not convinced about either of them.

[Stephoscope]

It's pretty safe to say that Zaz is of opposite alignment of Steph and Setael.

I don't agree with that at all. If I had to guess, I would guess all three of us are town, although I am certainly not convinced about either of them.

You just wanted to lynch me.

No, I want to lynch dramonic, and I made that clear. But I would certainly rather lynch you or anyone else but Setael. Setael could be lying, but we can find out tonight!

[Stephoscope]

It's pretty safe to say that Zaz is of opposite alignment of Steph and Setael.

I don't agree with that at all. If I had to guess, I would guess all three of us are town, although I am certainly not convinced about either of them.

You just wanted to lynch me.

No, I want to lynch dramonic, and I made that clear. But I would certainly rather lynch you or anyone else but Setael. Setael could be lying, but we can find out tonight!

Stepho, I undestand your concern but Pablo dieded right?

Indeed, but he was modkilled. The rules could be different.

[Stephoscope]

For the record, tomorrow I am not going to publicly post the exact results of my investigation at first, only whether the player is a good guy or a bad guy. Since codes are permitted, I will immediately post a hashed code containing the player's exact information...to be decoded after the scum have some time to squirm, or if it's necessary to save my butt, or the player's who I investigated. Sound okay?

[Stephoscope]

Stepho

, have you voted Dramonic today?

No...there are weeks until the deadline, and I'd rather talk everything over in a tricky situation like this instead of just throwing votes around. Also, dramonic does have the right to defend himself against a case against him...and admittedly much of my thinking has just been process-of-elimination and the desire not to lynch Setael right now (all of my energy has been spent arguing against that lynch and arguing with you).

[Stephoscope]

Stepho, just state if you have 'investigated' scum or town without adding a name at the start of the day. That way, if you claim to have scum investigated, they don't know who and can still squirm.

I will do that, but I will also add a coded message with all of the details, so everyone can tell I'm not just making them up later, if need be. You should like that.

[Stephoscope]

Then answer this Stepho: Since when have you been suspicious of Dramonic?

Process of elimination once it became obvious which players were vanilla, or at least claiming it. Similar reasons to why I chose Pablo to investigate, and I so was a bit surprised he was vanilla as well.

You may argue that this also means dramonic might be a power role, and you would have a point, but I'm not sure what else we need. If he gets some votes and claims a power role, we can worry about that then.

[Stephoscope]

but isn't that risking a modkill?

I mean, according to rule 10 code is fine, but if you put ALL the details of your investigation, isn't it almost like quoting your pm?

I won't quote the role PM...everything will be paraphrased before encoded, and if and when I announce what the message was, you can validate that it checks out.

For example, if I used the md5 hash calculator here:
http://md5-hash-online.waraxe.us/

and hashed this message:

Pablo Molinero is an Innocent, chuckle chuckle

(it's always a good idea to throw random stuff into your message so no one can figure it out through trial and error)

The output hash is
c8918e3f8c9fb479430c64347ba3b9c8

THAT's what I post. If I then have to validate something later, I give you the original message, then you can check that that spits out the right hash and nothing else does.

[Stephoscope]

if steph flips scum we can't trust the investigation result, and we go back into the default mode of scum hunting. Whether steph is right or not at that point is irrelevant.

Won't there be a point at which, after numerous proveably correct investigation results, you trust me?

I'll die if need be for the town cause, but please note that there was a reason I was asking Amished about continued protection a long long time ago. I'm pretty damned certain Amished is exactly who he says he is, and if you trust us and keep Setael alive for now, I believe we will win.

[Stephoscope]

then what's your alternative? I'm not about to vote myself and it seems people don't want to lynch Rock for serving no purpose.

As for Zaz, she's mental, but I don't think she's scum.

My proposition, as I have mentioned several times, is to lynch you, then I investigate Setael (I hate to do this, because I think she's town, but I'll do it if need be), then keep going.

[Stephoscope]

steph is putting too much emphasis on clearing setael by his own investigation and nothing about actual towniness, and he's assuming that we're all forced to believe him.

If I have my way, I'll investigate someone ELSE tonight, because I think there are others more likely to be scum. But if everyone wants Setael investigated, I will do so. The absolute worst scenario, in my opinion, is to lynch Setael right now.