The Manor: Chzo Mafia (Game Over!)

[ZazieR]

I SERIOUSLY don't know how to answer this. I have already shared what I learned about Naomi. IF I HAD TO GUESS RIGHT NOW, I would say that her role is Trilby,

her alignment is Innocent and/or Pro-Town

, and her flavor is (note these exact words, because Naomi should be able to confirm) "Infamous gentleman thief". But, AGAIN, this was not spelled out for me in the PM. I have done the best I can.

Please explain the bolded as you've claimed to have received her allignment. So the 'and/or' doesn't fit if this is true.

[ZazieR]

Like I said, I'm frazzled, but I don't really see how Stepho is obvscum although that may well simply be me missing it at this point. Please understand that Innocent being a role does not mean it is not also an alignment, and that if Innocent is not an alignment we have no power roles and e.g. Amished should be next in line for the chop. And that doesn't sound right to me, quite possibly the majority of the claims are scum but I seriously doubt all of them are. I know I'll kick myself if Stepho is scum (and this Innocent business has zero capability to clear him) but I'm not 100% putting my vote there right now.

Naomi is also still here as claimed powerrole.
Also, as I have already pointed out, Amished claimed a player from the game. However, after having checked the wiki, the name is wrong due to Amished's claimed flavour. He claimed the father, while the claimed flavour fits the son.

Actually he used the term "gatekeeper" when the term was supposed to be something else right?

I don't know what he meant with it. Which is why I asked him to explain it. But he hasn't showed up ever since I got here.

[ZazieR]

EBWOP: The words "Anti-Spirit" are in my PM about Naomi. Not my role PM.

What does the PM say about it, and how come you came up with this much later after your claim?

[ZazieR]

In regards to post:
2405
I don't think you're the only one who has...

Naomi

, please respond to Stepho''s claim.

Elmo

, if possible, could you a full role PM claim? You''re one of the two reasons as of now why I''m not voting him.

Sorry I didn't respond earlier... it's been a crazy week for me.

As I said before, I'm Trilby,

Naomi

, please respond to Stepho''s claim.

Elmo

, if possible, could you a full role PM claim? You''re one of the two reasons as of now why I''m not voting him.

Sorry I didn't respond earlier... it's been a crazy week for me.

As I said before,

I'm Trilby, gentalman theif

...
My pm says something along these lines: You are protected from malignant beings in the house.... You win when threats to the humans are eliminated

*pat, pat*
Don't worry. The lynch won't hurt much. Next time, you should read each post from Stepho before commenting. Here, he claimed indeed gentelman thief. Next post, it was 'infamous gentleman thief'. Please explain why you claimed gentelman thief, while according to Stepho, this isn't correct.

Also, does your role PM state your allignment? If so, what is it?

[ZazieR]

Right but remember the game history you quoted used a different term than "gatekeeper".

What if we are being mind screwed with scum being allowed to use "town-like-looking powers" and safeclaims and such? All this claiming left and right, I've never really seen a decent game go like this...

For Amish Ed's claim to be fake he would need to be scum with a townie-healing power...

I mean it just seems too far fetched.

I don't want to go into details about this. It would be much better to hear from Amished or a replacement first.

[ZazieR]

The deadline shouldn't matter. Steph is caught in a lie.

This,

Vote Stepho

[ZazieR]

I am not lying, and AGAIN, the PM is not specific as to what exactly is my role and alignment, and what are Naomi's. Everything I know is pretty much out there now.

Uhum?!

My PM provides my role and my alignment. I learn others' role and alignment when I investigate, as I made clear.

[ZazieR]

Look, I know that I am Janine, and an investigative reporter, and have fellow Innocents. I know that Naomi is Trilby, and is an infamous gentleman thief. And I was specifically told I learn roles and alignments when I investigate...but the results are not clear as to what's what.

I am in disbelief. Everything I have done in this game is consistent with my role. I am sorry that roleclaiming is difficult, but mine is legitimate as is Naomi's.

Then state what Naomi's allignment is, what the PM about 'anti-spirit' says and why Naomi didn't claim 'infamous'.

[ZazieR]

And respond to post 2428.

[ZazieR]

Look, I know that I am Janine, and an investigative reporter, and have fellow Innocents. I know that Naomi is Trilby, and is an infamous gentleman thief. And I was specifically told I learn roles and alignments when I investigate...but the results are not clear as to what's what.

I am in disbelief. Everything I have done in this game is consistent with my role. I am sorry that roleclaiming is difficult, but mine is legitimate as is Naomi's.

Then state what Naomi's allignment is, what the PM about 'anti-spirit' says and why Naomi didn't claim 'infamous'.

I don't know why Naomi didn't claim "infamous". Ask her.

AGAIN, AGAIN, my PM does not specifically state "This is the alignment:". EVERYTHING I learned has been stated. Are you trying to get me modkilled?

I already did ask her.
As for the allignment, according to you it's stated in your role PM. So from the results you've claimed to have gotten, you should be able to compare to see what her allignment is. Instead, you're saying 'Innocent and/or Pro-town'. How come?
And no, I'm not trying to get you mod-killed. However, paraphrasing is allowed. So state what was said about 'anti-spirit' in the PM you're claiming to have gotten.

And after looking again, an Innocent is a townie. So how can you have fellow townies, when you're not a townie according to you?

[ZazieR]

I am not a "Vanillager". I have the abilities I claimed. My PM specifically states "and fellow Innocents", and I am quite obviously a pro-town role.

Ok, sorry, but I don't see how come you're obv a pro-town role.
Could you explain why you are one according to you?

[ZazieR]

Although purposing polices is usually bad, I have one to suggest. How about if we get to two days before deadline, we lynch the person with the most votes.IF there are two wagons that might possible go through (one at 6, the other at 5) then we will force everybody to chose between one of those two wagons. Sound good?

Sure. However, I wonder if every player will notice

[ZazieR]

My role PM specifically states that I am on the side of fellow Innocents.

However, Innocents apparently aren''t, as it doesn''t mention ''fellow Innocents''. Naomi has stated this as well.

My PM about Naomi's role uses both the terms "pro-town" and "anti-Spirit".

Uhum?!
Didn''t you say ''Innocent and/or pro-town'' first? And now, you don''t mention the Innocent in this post. The reason for that is?

[ZazieR]

Don't you think you're pushing a bit too hard Zazie?

If you disagree with the points that I bring up that show that Stepho is lying, please say why. Because I''m of the opinion that he''s scum.

[ZazieR]

The mod has made clear the "Good factions" are seperate to Innocents.

He did?
Uhm, I think an example is better to use to what I think he''s saying:

Batman is fighting that Penguin Guy who had tied bombs to the back of his Penguin army. While they are fighting, you see the Penguins walking into the city. The ''Innocents'' are in their homes, doing their daily stuff as they don''t know that Penguins have gone suicidal. In other words, they aren''t involved in the battle between Good and Evil. Yet, they want to be save and therefore want Batman to win.

I hope this is understandable to what I think the mod meant.

[ZazieR]

Damn, Elmo''s posts are confusing me.
I agree with this though:

Lamont: I mean, there has been no reference to a "town" of any kind all game. In fact the mod has specifically avoided it to keep to the flavour. I think it's far more likely he's lying about being told someone is "pro-town".

[ZazieR]

Wow. Good timing, though.

This. Could you respond to Stepho''s claim and Post 2189?

[ZazieR]

Mod, I''m also voting Stepho

[ZazieR]

And Amished, could you give the flavour that is mentioned in your claimed role?
An elaboration about ''Gatekeeper'' would be nice as well.

[ZazieR]

@Zaz (questioning my PM's, role, etc.): I assume that KoC wouldn't tell me what would happen N3 (when Ho/Elmo was supposed to die) if I protected him then due to the fact that he was already under the blood's effect. However, with items upcoming if it was a flat out kill mechanic I would protect from that.

I get people to where they need to be, but not always in the best of conditions.

Can you explain the bolded?
Also, when did you ask the mod the question about protecting Hohum N3?

Hohum became an Innocent when he drank the blood.

Uhm, what? Please elaborate.

At that since I'm not just an innocent I wanted to know how that role PM went.

Why?

@Zaz (again): For the Malcolm/Jonathan thing: Going back to look at the games, it appears that KoC didn't fully do his research. Jonathan was the name of my father that I killed and took his position on the SS Mephistopheles. That's probably where he got screwed up as for almost the whole game (7 days a stranger) I was referred to as Jonathan.

The part of 7 Days is true. However, what you described wasn't from 7 Days, but from 6 Days. And in this game, it was mentioned that it was the son, and not the father.

For more flavor (while trying to avoid being modkilled):

From going through the games, I always thought of my character as the gatekeeper, and I'm pretty sure they referred to me as that at one time

. In my PM it does say Caretaker, but does say I'm Jonathan. I'm a prisoner of fate, yadda yadda yadda; delivered myself the blade to kill myself to become a spirit both directed by fate and to ensure that fate continues the way it's supposed to. Say's that because of killing myself I've become almost as powerful as the mastermind to open the bridge between worlds (Chzo). Goes into explanation how that the prisoner of fate translates into me being a doctor and saving people that need to be saved and all.

Can you rephrase the bolded?
Also, a question. Wasn't the Caretaker present to make sure that everything happened as they should be? In other words, that nothing would be changed in the timeline. Or did I get that wrong?

Again, just to be perfectly clear: My role does not say innocent in it anywhere. It says I win when all threats to the humans have been eliminated.

Which is also stated by Naomi, but not be Stepho. Why don't you see this as a fake-claim then?

[ZazieR]

Again, just to be perfectly clear: My role does not say innocent in it anywhere. It says I win when all threats to the humans have been eliminated.

I don't think Steph could be any more obvscum.

This. Naomi also stated humans and not Innocents.
So how come there are still players who aren't voting the obv fake claimer?

[ZazieR]

Stepho said he was an innocent. Lets look at the colours. Green is normally pro-town, red-pro-mafia, sometimes different factions have different colours like purple. Blue is neutral.

Are you saying that Innocents are neutral

[ZazieR]

This way Stepho gets to live because Amished willl protect him.

Your thoughts about the Stepho claim please. Because you've been wishy washy about it. One time you buy it, the other time you want him to explain before you want to hop on.

[ZazieR]

For Rock, there's a lot of very cynical posting coming from him, and there are times when I can see his point. The fact that in ISO 24 he basically came out and cleared Dev as much as anybody not-cop can while still being extremely open to attack because of it makes me think he's a vanillager as well.

Fail. Rock wasn't the first.
Also, the quotes you have given in this post about Dramonic's switches, are bad as well. However...

[ZazieR]

That was quite the post Amished.

I don't know bout you guys, but for me that's enough to warrant not voting Steph (not that I was XD)

(Continuing here from my last post)
why did you not respond to it?

[ZazieR]

doh!

My last post was referring to Amished's post on page 99, forgot to read page 100 when I made it XD

Also, the "before posts" in your analysis are me going with the flow, not being done reading the whole topic yet. the "after" are once I'm done reading.

also, since I've been seeing much of it, someone tell me what ISO means ><

The bolded is so noted.

[ZazieR]

It says nothing about specific alignment, (or being innocent)

It does, however, mention that I probably don't deserve to be here....

Please say why you added the bolded.
Because you are the first who has claimed this from the claimed powerroles.

[ZazieR]

according to my pm, it says nothing about infamous... it just says Trilby, Gentleman thief.

So tell me Pyro, why are you pushing Dramonic, but voting for Stepho, and yet you state Roc or Stepho are the only clear lynches.... why do you bring Dramonic into the picture if you think he's not a likely candidate?

How come you aren't voting one of the main bandwagons with deadline approaching? I especially want to hear the answer for this question regarding Stepho. As according to you, he's wrong with the claimed result.
Also, if you disagree with one of the main wagons (which appears to be the case as you're not voting one of them), how come you aren't pushing the one you want to see lynched?

[ZazieR]

I don't want the day to end in a no-lynch, but Steph has given plenty of reasons for us to believe he IS town and saying he's scummy based on his PM reformulation is a far stretch.

On a sidenote, unless he votes himself, some votes will have to change.

You have stated this some times, yet never gave reasons. Please do.

[ZazieR]

Omgosh a speedlynch of a town power role...

I'm sorry, what's all this, please?

unvote

Stepho fake claimed.

[ZazieR]

Naomi says stepho is scum.

That must be why she's not voting him <<

Or she said it indirectly.

[ZazieR]

Omgosh a speedlynch of a town power role...

I'm sorry, what's all this, please?

unvote

His claim confirms him scum. He needs to be lynched now.

This.
If you disagree, state why, vote somebody else (If you haven't yet) and state your reasons for voting that player.

[ZazieR]

Apparently, not for KoC

[ZazieR]

It is possible that Stepho misspoke when he said he was Innocent. It appears he was inferring this from the “fellow Innocents” phrase. I think it is possible that the “good” faction (i.e. power roles) have “fellow innocents” though they are not themselves an Innocent.

Which is why Amished and Naomi have both stated they don't have it?

I think there is a chance Stepho is telling the truth about his claim, and anything that seems to be contradicting what the mod said has come from Stepho misspeaking or misunderstanding game mechanics that really weren't clear to any of us until the mod clarified in thread.

Examples?

(There is also a LOT of sense in stepho's statement that it has been narrowed down quite a bit today and his pool is very small for finding scum tonight.)

Elaborate, please.

[ZazieR]

It says nothing about specific alignment, (or being innocent)

It does, however, mention that I probably don't deserve to be here....

Please say why you added the bolded.
Because you are the first who has claimed this from the claimed powerroles.

Will respond later to the posts made, as I have to go soon.
But hi Naomi

[ZazieR]

First, I''ll respond to post 2554 as Setael responded to my questions.

It is possible that Stepho misspoke when he said he was Innocent. It appears he was inferring this from the “fellow Innocents” phrase. I think it is possible that the “good” faction (i.e. power roles) have “fellow innocents” though they are not themselves an Innocent.

Which is why Amished and Naomi have both stated they don't have it?

*And yet Amished thinks Stepho's claim might be legit. How do you reconcile this? I think it is fail to auto assume this type of thing is definitive.

I think there is a chance Stepho is telling the truth about his claim, and anything that seems to be contradicting what the mod said has come from Stepho misspeaking or misunderstanding game mechanics that really weren't clear to any of us until the mod clarified in thread.

Examples?

*anything meaning EVERYTHING. i.e. saying he was Innocent

(There is also a LOT of sense in stepho's statement that it has been narrowed down quite a bit today and his pool is very small for finding scum tonight.)

Elaborate, please.

*Several people have outed themselves as vanillagers (assuming scum does not have access to the vanilla pm). This narrows down which players can be power roles or scum. This makes it easier for a cop to find scum.

-The first response.
Very scummy. In post 2529, Setael stated that she thought Stepho was scum, until he made this post:

I am not a "Vanillager". I have the abilities I claimed. My PM specifically states "and fellow Innocents", and I am quite obviously a pro-town role.

The reason is what I quoted from her in my previous post. Now that I''ve reminded her that this isn''t true (unless Naomi and Amished are scum), she still doesn''t think he is scum. So I want to hear an explanation for this.

-Second response.
Failed argument. Stepho has claimed to be a role cop who also learns the allignment of the one who he investigates. According to him, it states pro-town/ anti-spirit. So why claim Innocent when according to your PM received from your investigation, it should be pro-town?

Other than the above, the mass Appeal, the back-tracking and the threats, this isn''t a scummy post. For examples of the last three:

As long as the possibility exists that stepho is the cop, it is STUPID to lynch Stepho today and imo only scum will push it. It does not hurt us AT ALL to let him live one more day, and it might hurt us A LOT if we lynch him and he flips cop.

He should be given at least one more night to get info. If you want to lynch him tomorrow, go for it. At least then if he flips town cop we have decent info.

Basically, if you are town you should think about this and at least let Stepho live one more day in case he's our cop. If you're scum, keep pushing his lynch because it will make it easier to spot you.

[ZazieR]

It is possible that Stepho misspoke when he said he was Innocent. It appears he was inferring this from the “fellow Innocents” phrase. I think it is possible that the “good” faction (i.e. power roles) have “fellow innocents” though they are not themselves an Innocent.

Two reasons why this is wrong as I''ve already stated:
-Amished and Naomi have claimed not to have the part of ''fellow Innocents''.
-He''s claimed to be a role cop who gets allignment from the player he investigates. He received according to him, pro-town and anti-spirit. And as said by him, nowhere was Innocent stated:

The word "Innocent" does not appear in my PM about Naomi.

Setael, if Stepho hadn''t claimed a powerrole, would you have voted him?

Worst case scenario, we lynch him and it turns out he's our cop. It would be incredibly damaging to the town and we may end up going after those who pushed his wagon, when they could very easily be Innocents that saw a contradiction in something that was just Stepho misunderstanding/misspeaking. It would not be THAT awful if we let him live another day even if it turns out he's scum.

As long as the possibility exists that stepho is the cop, it is STUPID to lynch Stepho today and imo only scum will push it.

Contradictory much?

[ZazieR]

@Stepho

If you thought you were Innocent alligned and you received a result that doesn''t state Innocent regarding your investigation according to you. Then how come you didn''t think that you two were different alligned?

[ZazieR]

He said that he was an innocent. He now says he is not an innocent. A power role would know that they were not an innocent. Did he misspeak when he said Naomi's role is "Infamous Gentlemen thief"?

No. He said he was Innocent.
But based upon information gotten, it''s still obv a lie.

[ZazieR]

Worst case scenario, we lynch him and it turns out he's our cop.

It would be incredibly damaging to the town and we may end up going after those who pushed his wagon, when they could very easily be Innocents that saw a contradiction in something that was just Stepho misunderstanding/misspeaking

. It would not be THAT awful if we let him live another day even if it turns out he's scum.

As long as the possibility exists that stepho is the cop, it is STUPID to lynch Stepho today and imo only scum will push it.

Contradictory much?

Not that much <<

You bolded the wrong part

[ZazieR]

Sigh.

People really, Steph claim is already too stinky to even consider the probs of being legit. Yeah, mod could be fucking with us or with him, or he claimed poorly or for some bizarre reason, he could be telling the truth and Im getting things wrong, but the proabilities of this happening are extremely low compared to the probabilities of he being scum fakeclaiming, specially when we have a deadline is in two days and we really cant afford another no lynch. specially a lynch full of information like his.

tl;dr Lynch Stepho.
The wise Alpaca has spoken.

[ZazieR]

Is it really IMPOSSIBLE that one power role would have "fellow innocents" in their role pm and others wouldn't? In THIS game when nothing is impossible? The mod even lets completely inexperienced players in. Just to mess with us. Anything is possible.

It is possible that Stepho misspoke when he said he was Innocent. It appears he was inferring this from the “fellow Innocents” phrase.

I think it is possible that the “good” faction (i.e. power roles) have “fellow innocents” though they are not themselves an Innocent.

Even you don''t think that is true.

And there are so many things impossible. Let''s try some stuff out:

Mod

- Reveal all the scum

Mod

- Replace Naomi

Tajo

- Turn into a Llama.

[/sarcasm]
In other words, I don''t think it''s true.

Before stepho's claim, i'd have preferred a Dev vote but yes I probably would've voted stepho. I might even vote Stepho tomorrow. I just want to see a result tomorrow from both him and Naomi. I think this will greatly benefit the town and I can see no reason not to.

For what reasons?

@zazier - on the off chance that stepho is really the cop, I think he should live one more day. Assuming I'm wrong and he's scum, can you name ONE way it hurts us to let him live one more day?

-Scum confusion (Day 3)
-Scum bussing (Day 3)
-Scum talking during the night to set another player up the next day.
-Stepho can use a possible scum powerrole.

[ZazieR]

@Setael

Wait, you think that scum are pushing the Stepho lynch right now. So why aren''t you looking into those players?

[ZazieR]

I wanted to know so that I could look at future power role claims (if any) and see if they were legit or not. Clearly having that knowledge out there would probably influence scum claiming, and I could then contrast that with what I have in my PM if they say something that's kinda weird or doesn't line up.

Like Stepho having claimed ''fellow Innocents'', while you and Naomi have claimed it says ''fellow humans''?

I played the games a long time ago (probably about a year?) and only once. While going through, I thought of my character as the gatekeeper and not the caretaker. Minor difference in title, but that's just how I referred to him and why I said it that way at the start.

So why claim to be the gatekeeper, while you claim that your role PM says caretaker?

For the Innocent thing, right now it's mod-guessing. Is it a role (like vanilla townie), an alignment (like pro-town) or what? If it was construed as an alignment by Steph, I can easily see where he'd say he's innocent as I'd be the same.

It''s a role as the mod stated. Also, does the second make sense when a claimed role cop who also gets allignments according to him, claims to be Innocent, while the PM about his investigation apparently never stated Innocent?

[ZazieR]

2. You know what I'd do if I were scum in this position? I'd sacrifice a fellow scum to try and prove myself. Why not count on that and leave me be for now?

Oh, circular logic. Scummy.
Also, we''ve been over the second part before. You know. When Elmo asked what happened to your wagon of day 1.

[ZazieR]

As of now, I don't know if Stepho was caught fake-claiming... or that he made the mistake of using the word 'innocent' simply to describe himself as town, as apposed to scum.

So why do you think he''d claim ''allignment''?

The fact that Amished and I did not say 'innocent' is because we posted after the Mod made the clarification. Why would we have said that we were innocent, when clearly innocents are not associated with power-roles...
Stepho never had that chance as he posted before the term innocent was given a specific definition.

Please respond to my argument of him being a role cop after Stepho has responded to it.

Because he did not know what innocent meant, I will discard this to ponder later. If someone can give me another reason to vote Stepho that does not involve this argument, I'll consider voting Stepho. Until then I have no reason not to believe his claim.

Well, you did find him scummy during day 1. I don''t think you''ve explained why these suspicions got dropped, so that would be nice to hear.
Also, as I already said, the part about him pushing the devil smiley argument against Lamont was scummy as he didn''t question him during his PR act.
And this post.

[ZazieR]

I really felt that this statement needed to be made, as it implies that one is 'good' aligned...

though as we have seen, innocents are caught in the struggle between good and evil. Trilby is very much caught up in the struggle. In regards to this matter, we find out that every 'innocent' is caught up in this struggle.

This statement = ''I probably don't deserve to be here''

Can you explain the bolded?

[ZazieR]

Sironigous is not currently a major player, plus he is obviously not a PR if he was given such a long V/LA, so I'm not complaining.

Mod WIFOM.

[ZazieR]

What Dev said

Uhm, post 2553?

[ZazieR]

20 hours til deadline...

Fixed, if I''m correct.

[ZazieR]

zazie, you're misrepresenting what i'm saying. I think maybe you're scum in a very good disguise. This frightens me since your activity level alone tends to make people write you off as town.

Then respond.
And state reasons for your accusations.

[ZazieR]

ZazieR, please cut down on the unnecessary spam posting.
I'll condense these into 1 post at some point.

No. I once put everything into one post. Not a huge success. Players ignored it and complained about the length as due to differences in time zone, I had a lot of stuff to catch up with daily.
Ever since I put them in smaller posts, I and many other players read them and they even analyse them.
So you might see it as spam, I certainly do not.

[ZazieR]

19 hours I think..Midday UK time tomorrow right?

I live in GMT+2 and it''s just over 6 PM. So there, it''s just after 4 PM.

[ZazieR]

Results please.

[ZazieR]

"And I saw the Body of the Bridge cast into flame, and the way was one third open."

Who mentioned a possible cult for the first time?

[ZazieR]

For those interested why:

To bring Chzo into this world (the "World of Technology"), the Order must destroy all three aspects of John DeFoe (referred to by the Order as the "Bridgekeeper"), his mind, body and soul

According to the flavour, one is destroyed.

[ZazieR]

Never mind about a possible cult. It seems more likely that the Order is the scum.

[ZazieR]

Wow crossfire! Awesome!

Nope, I would have confessed. You lost your vig.

If you''re saying you''re a vig here, then this is the worst fake-claim ever.
You''ve flipped!

[ZazieR]

I'm guessing that only another spirit could have killed Xtoxm.

I think that the Tall Man is used for flavour, and that he''s the one who kills for the Order (scum) In other words, a spirit helping the scum for flavour purposes.

[ZazieR]

I investigated Pablo Molinero. He is an Innocent.

Why Pablo? And what about allignment?

[ZazieR]

I investigated Devestation. He is also innocent.

Why Deves?

[ZazieR]

I investigated Pablo Molinero. He is an Innocent.

Why Pablo? And what about allignment?

I chose someone who I didn't think was particularly cleared, but also who I hadn't publicly focused a lot of attention on, in case the scum has some way a target can be protected.

My PM was very concise, and I've included all information from it. There is no statement like "the role is THIS and the alignment is THAT" whatsoever.

Not this again. You stated last time three possibilities. Which of those got mentioned in the PM you received about Pablo?

[ZazieR]

Mainly because of how he played during the vig yesterday.

Did you miss his claim, which also later had some flavour with it?:

The general gist of it is "your innocent, you really shouldnt be here but you are, get rid of the evil, you have a vote and your brains".

You mised the reason why ppl left the Deves wagon?

[ZazieR]

I already told you.

No, you didn''t. So do so.

[ZazieR]

Also,

Stepho

, please respond to this:

Also, does the second make sense when a claimed role cop who also gets allignments according to him, claims to be Innocent, while the PM about his investigation apparently never stated Innocent?

[ZazieR]

Amished

, this

Naomi

, this and the post afterwards

Setael

, this

[ZazieR]

I have already told you exactly what was in my first investigation, and exactly what was in my second.

Just a suggestion: since Devestation and Pablo apparently have the exact same roles, why don't you ask Naomi what she thinks of what I'm saying?

So you received no allignment according to you? Noted.
And Naomi claimed 1-shot cop. You claimed cop who also receives allignments. So why do you suggest that?

[ZazieR]

Also, thinking about Naomi''s claim, I checked her flavour claim again:

My pm says something along these lines:

You are protected from malignant beings in the house

.... You win when threats to the humans are eliminated

What she has claimed explains the part about being unnightkillable (see bolded). But this flavour claim doesn''t mention anything about a 1-shot cop ability.
Naomi, how come?

[ZazieR]

So Naomi, you didn''t miss the Deves claim, yet you investigated him?

[ZazieR]

In my opinion, innocent implies that their alignment is pro-town... as we have found... innocents have no other role... why would there be anything else mentioned in the pm?

Well, I''d expect it with a cop claim that receives also allignment claim.
Also, please answer the questions aimed at you.

[ZazieR]

If you were discussing allignment, then why bring the bolded up?
Also, flavour claim.

[ZazieR]

Also,

Stepho

, please respond to this:

Also, does the second make sense when a claimed role cop who also gets allignments according to him, claims to be Innocent, while the PM about his investigation apparently never stated Innocent?

Hi Stepho.

[ZazieR]

Also, does anyone know if a cop who would get allignments would also get allignments when investigating a townie?
If this knowledge comes from a past game, link?

[ZazieR]

If the scum are indeed the Order, you''d if you are a member of the Order also be protected from such beings
Flavor claim?

[ZazieR]

Hi. Again, I believe alignment is redundant and not included when we are talking about a player who as AN INNOCENT.

And, as I mentioned before, my investigation of Naomi resulted in finding out she was pro-town, and Anti-Spirit. I believe I was the first one in the game to use the "anti-Spirit" term.

And if none of that matches with your role PM, ZazieR, you have some 'splainin to do.

That does not answer my question. If Innocent isn''t mentioned in a PM you claimed to have gotten which according to you includes allignment, then why claim that your allignment is Innocent?
The part about being the first who used the term ''anti-spirit'' doesn''t mean much at all when it''s very likely that nobody knows the real allignments.
As for the first paragraph, we''ll see if we get a link of a game which had a role cop.

I got no allignment mentioned, only my role.

[ZazieR]

Please note that Naomi and Amished are the only claimed power roles, and I don't think they would agree with you that using the term "anti-Spirit" first doesn't mean much.

Please explain this.

So, ZazieR, how do you feel about Xtoxm flipping scum?

Didn''t expect him to be scum.
Why are you asking?

[ZazieR]

Wrong about Amished.
His PM didn''t mention being anti-spirit or Innocent.

And your point of?:

And, I'm just saying, you and Xtoxm seemed to be getting along famously yesterday.

[ZazieR]

Also,

Naomi

For clarification, your result was that Deves is innocent? If not, what was your result?

[ZazieR]

You can ask Amished what he thinks. I do not believe the "anti-Spirit" terminology was used before then.

You are the only one who has! As it''s very likely that nobody knows, you can just make it up.

And, if it wasn't obvious, my point was that it's very easy to imagine two scums working together to try and get a town power role lynched. That being you and Xtoxm, if it still wasn't clear.

Soft pushing is noted.
Also, Tox was SK. So your point is invalid.

[ZazieR]

I didn't make up anything. I believe that terminology to be in certain others' PMs. If I'm wrong, so be it.

Why do you think this?

I didn't "soft" anything. Anyone who read what I wrote understood exactly what I meant. You just led me on so you could say "oh look scumtell", although the irony is that you did that in quite a "soft" fashion if I may say so myself.

Yes. I know exactly what you are saying. Which is why I can see that you are soft pushing. You are hinting that Tox and me were scum, working together to get a town powerrole lynched. So why no vote if you think this?

And my point is most certainly not "invalid", given that I have no idea what the scum might know and which players may be communicating behind the scenes. Do you?

No, I don''t know with whom scum can communicate. But a SK is a third party role. It opposes scum and town. There is no sense that scum would know who the SK is as they can destroy one of their enemies. I''ve never seen scum who knew who a third party role is. Do you agree?

[ZazieR]

Because I was given that terminology in my investigation of Naomi, and then Amished seemed to recognize it.

We''ll see what Amished has to say.

I don't think I've seen that situation, but I am certainly not the most experienced player. And, the "anti-Spirit" term makes me think that all the scum are Spirits (as there was no "anti-anything else")...so they may well be aligned and/or in communication.

Scum hasn''t flipped yet, so we can''t be sure.
Are you basing your suspicions of me on an assumption?


*Hopes that Naomi will respond soon*

[ZazieR]

No, you both trying to lynch a pro-town player and Xtoxm's flipping scum are not "assumptions".

You are very scummy, and we''ll soon find out if you are trapped in a lie or not. One answer, and we have at least one scum caught.
Tox wasn''t scum scum. He was scum SK.

Also, it's admittedly pretty WIFOM to analyze Xtoxm's statement about "playing as vig" (which definitely shouldn't have been allowed), but that obviously could have been an attempt to make you look good and have me lynched after all.

See? Assumption.
You''re throwing mud.

[ZazieR]

EBWOP: I am defining Xtoxm as scum for now, despite his being a serial killer, because he is identified as a Spirit...and I would expect peoples' role to be anti-scum, not anti-serial killer.

According to the flavour, the one who killed Sajin N1 has died N2. He was SK.

[ZazieR]

Also,

Naomi

For clarification, your result was that Deves is innocent? If not, what was your result?

Yes. Do you have anything else you would like to pick apart?
I for one would like to hear from Pablo.

Sorry. In a game in which the townies are called Innocents, your claimed result confused me.

[ZazieR]

Also,

Naomi

, flavour claim?

[ZazieR]

If we suppose we have 2 other "parts" of DeFoe AND the mafia to catch (how many are there usually in a 20 men setup, 4?)

What kind of role do you think the last two parts will be and why?

[ZazieR]

On a related note, my PM also says nothing about spirits, just evil in general.

This.

[ZazieR]

Why is naomi/stepho clear again? Stepho could be a role cop.

I don''t see why one of them is cleared.
Deves is very likely confirmed though due to the flavour claim.

[ZazieR]

What are you talking about? Pablo? He's an Innocent, as in vanilla...if he's not, lynch me.

I'm not saying I don't believe your claim, but I don't like this post. It proves nothing. It

almost

sounds like a scum ploy to appear as town.

Can you see how it makes no sense here?

No, I was trying to clarify exactly what Zazier was talking about (I'm still not sure), and make it very very clear that I investigated Pablo...he is Innocent as in vanilla, not any special role that may be aligned with Innocents.

I wasn''t talking about Pablo. But the thing I was talking about isn''t valid as I got confused regarding Naomi''s claimed result.

[ZazieR]

First point: I'm still technically a spirit, I'm just watching over the humans.

being anti-spirit makes sense to me personally.

Yep, makes sense
Also, could you please explain to me how anti-spirit could make sense when the Order is most likely involved?

2nd point: Because I didn't read my title when I claimed. I knew who I was from the games, and my powers, and kinda what would happen later on. I went from my memory instead of taking it word for word from my PM. A mistake looking back at it, but I probably would've done the same thing in any other circumstance too.

Ok, noted.

3rd: He investigated Naomi N1 who is a power role (and he was too). He would not know the information now as it was never discussed and he didn't get it in any role pm to that point in time. All he could compare it with is his own and obviously that wouldn't help him as he's not just a vanillager.

Rephrase?

[ZazieR]

Last,

Naomi

, for clarification, you saw Deves claim and also his flavour claim, right?

[ZazieR]

You were saying that I was misinterpreting you after these two posts:

Is it really IMPOSSIBLE that one power role would have "fellow innocents" in their role pm and others wouldn't? In THIS game when nothing is impossible? The mod even lets completely inexperienced players in. Just to mess with us. Anything is possible.

It is possible that Stepho misspoke when he said he was Innocent. It appears he was inferring this from the “fellow Innocents” phrase.

I think it is possible that the “good” faction (i.e. power roles) have “fellow innocents” though they are not themselves an Innocent.

Even you don''t think that is true.

And there are so many things impossible. Let''s try some stuff out:

Mod

- Reveal all the scum

Mod

- Replace Naomi

Tajo

- Turn into a Llama.

[/sarcasm]
In other words, I don''t think it''s true.

Before stepho's claim, i'd have preferred a Dev vote but yes I probably would've voted stepho. I might even vote Stepho tomorrow. I just want to see a result tomorrow from both him and Naomi. I think this will greatly benefit the town and I can see no reason not to.

For what reasons?

@zazier - on the off chance that stepho is really the cop, I think he should live one more day. Assuming I'm wrong and he's scum, can you name ONE way it hurts us to let him live one more day?

-Scum confusion (Day 3)
-Scum bussing (Day 3)
-Scum talking during the night to set another player up the next day.
-Stepho can use a possible scum powerrole.

@Setael

Wait, you think that scum are pushing the Stepho lynch right now. So why aren''t you looking into those players?

I was asking you to explain why.


You also stated that you think that I''m maybe scum in a very good disguise. So I want to hear reasons for your accusations as well.

[ZazieR]

Thanks Naomi. Then explain this:

It says nothing about specific alignment, (or being innocent)

It does, however, mention that I probably don't deserve to be here....

Please say why you added the bolded.
Because you are the first who has claimed this from the claimed powerroles.

Will respond later to the posts made, as I have to go soon.
But hi Naomi

Naomi's answer:

Hello, and thanks for the question.
I really felt that this statement needed to be made, as it implies that one is 'good' aligned... though as we have seen, innocents are caught in the struggle between good and evil. Trilby is very much caught up in the struggle. In regards to this matter, we find out that every 'innocent' is caught up in this struggle.

None of them deserve to die, they're just sheep for the slaughter... I believe that innocent implies that they are townies, who got stuck in the house... for some reason or another.... obviously someone is pulling at the strings, but why? What do they want...

And last but not least, Deves flavour claim, which Naomi claims to have seen:

The general gist of it is "your innocent, you really shouldnt be here but you are, get rid of the evil, you have a vote and your brains".

So explain now why you targeted Deves according to you.

[ZazieR]

@Zaz: I have no idea if the order is involved or not. As my win condition is specifically tied to the humans, I'm taking it to mean that I'm against spirits. BTW: The exact wording in my role PM is that I'm a Creature Of Pure Will. Basically a spirit, but not exactly.

Check flavour. It states that 1 of the three items is destroyed. One of the three items the Order wanted to destroy in the games. So it seems likely.

About Dev: He has his own role pm (PR). He investigated another PR (naomi). So all he would see/have knowledge of are PR roles/wording. Even with the deaths being "innocent" it could have been a limited reveal death game (just giving alignments). During D2 when he was questioned most heavily he would not have knowledge of our vanillager's actual role being "innocent". Townie or Pro-town would be analogous for a normal mafia game.

You mean Stepho.
And he claims to receive allignments. He should have known then that Innocent isn't allignment. Also, nobody has yet explained why Stepho would claim allignment in the first place.

[ZazieR]

we have a lot of lurkers <<

Not really. Only Rock hasn't posted yet as far as I know. But many haven't said much.

[ZazieR]

Naomi

, flavour claim?

[ZazieR]

Amished

, assuming you are the one who gave Elmo another day, why didn''t you protect him?

[ZazieR]

Deves, take those matches now.

[ZazieR]

So vote. There should be a reason why it's done by PM this time.
So I think that Elmo, Deves and/or Pablo should take the items as they are (semi-)confirmed.

[ZazieR]

Definitly Elmo as he's confirmed. So I say that Elmo should take one of the items, preferable the doll.
One of Deves and Pablo should take the matches then of which I prefer Deves.

[ZazieR]

Pablo, did you take one of the items or both?

[ZazieR]

Pablo, can you tell us more about the matches?
And why did you pick them?

If a player claims to have taken the doll, I want him/her to answer these questions as well.

[ZazieR]

Any townie

whose role I uncover makes one more person who can be confident I'm telling the truth, and any scum I may find puts us one step closer to the win.

Regarding the bolded, please state why you chose that wording.

[ZazieR]

Well, it's a good reason to be confused XS

Unless it relates to the doll?

GREAT I knew being a TV Anchorman would give me fanboys/girls/murderous spirits

Can you elaborate on the bolded?

[ZazieR]

In the 5 Days a Stranger game, the small idol (perhaps this "doll") basically possesses people with Defoe's soul to go have a funtimes murder spree. It's also likely that if this is the idol I'm thinking of, it is the "Soul" component of the bridge and perhaps the person that grabbed it shouldn't come out (seeing as what happened to the "body") lest they get NKed by the Order? Thinking out loud here. Dram, I'll get to you later.

What happened to it in the game?
And if it did possess ppl, shouldn't the player who took it claim?

[ZazieR]

Let Deves take it.

[ZazieR]

Well, it's a good reason to be confused XS

Unless it relates to the doll?

GREAT I knew being a TV Anchorman would give me fanboys/girls/murderous spirits

Can you elaborate on the bolded?

I thought Pablo had taken both.

How?

[ZazieR]

Who took the doll?

Nobody has claimed to have done so yet. We're still waiting for that claim.

[ZazieR]

So, given that Pablo was a vanilla and had already been identified as such before the modkill, how come he was apparently asking to be protected? Maybe the matches are not as "useless" as he claimed?

...but they'd probably be used today, right?

I'm just not sure I follow why he put in that 1pt text to begin with.

Sure, point it out
There is probably only one player alive who knows. It's up to him/her if he/she wants to tell or not.

[ZazieR]

Take Matches

maybe the PM thing is over...

When the dust settles, the matches are gone, and no-one will admit to taking them.

They are already taken. But why did you want them?

[ZazieR]

I did not take the matches.

Why did you state this?

[ZazieR]

I don't wanna touch all those crazy items, every single one of them so far has resulted in the death or the death-to-be of the user! O_O

I disagree with this thinking.
If that doll is indeed the idol which contained the soul of DeFoe, it's probably better to have in the hands of town than of scum as it contains one of the three items that had to get destroyed by the Order in the games.

[ZazieR]

Well, if we follow the doll assumption, then it turns you into a SK of sort, it doesn't kill you.

If it's the idol with the soul in it.

If that is right, then we can suppose Pablo voted me based on the matches. Whoever has the match can explain this and out themself or not do so. Anyway if the matches hate me so the owner will probably vote me too <<

Why do you keep thinking that it has to do with the matches?

[ZazieR]

Based upon what Pablo did after receiving the matches, I say that it might be better not to know who has them.

[ZazieR]

When the dust settles, the matches are gone, and no-one will admit to taking them.

Setael

, could you explain this?

[ZazieR]

It makes me scratch my head a little bit that you apparently were in this thread and got the matches via PM without actually making a post here that day...but unless there is a counterclaim regarding the matches, I don't see any reason not to believe you.

Believing that she has them isn''t hard. That''s most likely correct.
Believing that she''s telling the truth about what the matches do, is a different story.

[ZazieR]

Mod, can you prod Naomi and Rockatansky?

[ZazieR]

My interpretation of the pm is they can only be used by someone who survives to endgame. Therefore I don't know if we should give them to Elmo. If that's what the town wants though I'll certainly comply. It might be a good way to verif that what I said about them is true.

@ zazie: I asked the mod about that before I said in thread that I have them since I thought it meant I wasn't supposed to say it in thread. He gave me permission so I did.

Yes. I want you to give them to Elmo if possible.

[ZazieR]

Why do some players think that Setael might be speaking the truth?

[ZazieR]

Well, if the theory about the doll possessing the user is correct we'll probably have proof during the night.

This. If the doll is indeed the idol of the game and has the soul of DeFoe in it, we''ll find out during the night.

[ZazieR]

Well, I still think that John DeFoe is a serial killer team.

I don''t think so. A serial killer works on his own. Even if there are more, they all work on their own. So it''s not possible for them to be a team.
And speculating on it doesn''t help. We''ll find out during the night.

[ZazieR]

@zazier: what reason do you have to think I'm not telling the truth?

I guess Elmo can always give them to whomever the town decides on before he dies.

give matches to Elmo

-Items found during the day must be used before the lynch. The only exception so far was the shell as it had to be combined with a gun.
-It came at the same time with the doll. It seems to me that the two are connected. Flavour of the game reinforces this if it's the idol as the idol was destroyed due to a fire.
-Both town and scum don't need to burn down the mansion for their win condition. In other words, it means the matches would be used for flavour if you are correct. This seems very unlikely to me.

[ZazieR]

But thanks for giving the matches to Elmo.

Mod, can we have a prod on him as well?

[ZazieR]

Setael

, this

[ZazieR]

Well, I still think that John DeFoe is a serial killer team.

I don''t think so. A serial killer works on his own. Even if there are more, they all work on their own. So it''s not possible for them to be a team.
And speculating on it doesn''t help. We''ll find out during the night.

Political mafia.

What?

[ZazieR]

Link?

[ZazieR]

So both the mod posted and the player to whom it was posted to give the matches to, and we still don''t know if they have been received >.<

Good luck, Elmo. I''ll miss you.

[ZazieR]

Then we continue without bothering with the matches for now IMHO.

No. Because if they are indeed combined with the doll, they will be important.
And if you don''t want to bother with the matches, then why don''t you bring something up you want to discuss? Because I''m waiting for Naomi to state her flavour and explain why she chose you for investigation when she says she has seen your claim and flavour claim. And I''m waiting on the doll claim.

[ZazieR]

I don't have notification of anything. I don't know what that means. (shrug)

Probably that you don''t have them.
I wonder why.

[ZazieR]

You asked me why I think that you are lying. I gave my reasons for it. And some are indeed based upon assumptions.

Check the rules. See 7. Seems I am correct that items found during the day must be used before a lynch.

I''ve just explained the basis for thinking they are tied. If you disagree, state why.

Town doesn''t have to burn down the house. If you are town, you should know this. So explain why there is a so-called item in play which isn''t needed for either town or scum if you are correct.

As long as Elmo (now Hohum) doesn''t state that what you are saying is correct, I have no reason to believe you. I have given three reasons why it''s likely you are lying. All are still valid.
The only reason why I''m considering you telling the truth is because you came up with the idea of giving them to Elmo. Nothing else you have said about it, makes me consider it.

[ZazieR]

Hohum

, did you receive the matches? If so, what do they do?

[ZazieR]

I don''t have it.

Claim Tally

(don''t have it)
Lamont
Pyro
Stepho
Zazie
Setael


Add yourself to the list if you claim you don''t have it.

[ZazieR]

Can you already tell us if you have received the matches?

[ZazieR]

In other news, why haven't we lynched pyro yet?

Because it''s very likely that we''ve caught fake-claiming scum.
And because the lynches haven''t worked out due to the discussion of the items each time.

Can you show us a case when you''re done reading?

[ZazieR]

Setael

, this

You still haven''t responded.

[ZazieR]

Naomi

, this

Also,

Vote Naomi

[ZazieR]

Claim Tally

(don''t have it)
Lamont
Pyro
Stepho
Zazie
Setael
Dram
Tajo
Deves

[ZazieR]

For

Hohum

Stepho''s claim:

For the love of God...

I am Janine. I am an investigative reporter, and am Innocent.

I can check one player each night, and learn his or her role and alignment.

I investigated Naomi last night. Her roleclaim was legitimate. She is Trilby.

Please protect me tonight.

Finally, he claims his results:

I SERIOUSLY don't know how to answer this. I have already shared what I learned about Naomi. IF I HAD TO GUESS RIGHT NOW, I would say that her role is Trilby, her alignment is Innocent and/or Pro-Town, and her flavor is (note these exact words, because Naomi should be able to confirm) "Infamous gentleman thief". But, AGAIN, this was not spelled out for me in the PM. I have done the best I can.

Later, he stated that the PM he claimed to have received said ''anti-spirit'', which then became Naomi''s allignment.
He also has claimed to be Innocent. And his role PM mentioned ''and fellow Innocents'' according to him.

The lies:
-Innocent isn''t allignment. When this was pointed out, it got changed to ''anti-spirit''. Also, in this game, it''s also very strange if somebody''s allignment would be ''pro-town''.
-Naomi states that her role is ''gentelman thief'', which is what Stepho claimed before changing it to ''infamous gentleman thief''
-No role PM so far claimed has ''an fellow Innocents''. All the others have claimed ''and fellow humans''.

This is basically it regarding Stepho.

[ZazieR]

For

Hohum

Naomi claimed to be Trilby at the end of day 1. Her first claim was that she can''t be killed. Later, after Amished has asked some questions, she adds to be a 1-shot cop.
So far, she has refused to give flavour. I hope she''ll do so pretty soon.
Also, she didn''t use her 1-shot N1. She did so N2 on a player who was seen as very likely town after his claim and flavour claim (Deves). She thought the same. This still needs to be explained.

[ZazieR]

Amished

You''ve claimed to be a ''Creature of Good Will''. So can you explain then to me why you think your role would then contain ''fellow humans''?

[ZazieR]

Tajo claimed, and Zwet and Sironi are V/LA.
Has Hohum claimed then if he has it?

[ZazieR]

The lies:
-Innocent isn''t allignment. When this was pointed out, it got changed to ''anti-spirit''. Also, in this game, it''s also very strange if somebody''s allignment would be ''pro-town''.

That's a misrepresentation of things I have said. My role PM specifically states "fellow Innocents". My Naomi investigation PM specifically states both "pro-town" and "anti-Spirit", strange as you may think it to be. I have been entirely consistent, and nothing has "changed".

First, we got Stepho saying that he's Innocent.
After some discussion about how this seems very unlikely, you give the reult you've claimed to have received and you state that Naomi is Innocent and/or Pro-town.
More banter about your claimed result and you state that Naomi is 'anti-spirit'.
I don't see this as coincidence.

-Naomi states that her role is ''gentelman thief'', which is what Stepho claimed before changing it to ''infamous gentleman thief''

That I said "gentleman thief" first is irrelevant, since I EBWOP'ed it a minute later because I forgot the "infamous" part. My PM states "infamous gentleman thief". If I were making up something safe, don't you think I would have stopped at "gentleman thief"? A quick Google search for "Trilby gentleman thief" gives back lots of results, but searching for "Trilby infamous gentleman thief" doesn't seem to bring back anything with that choice of words except for this game itself. And was Pablo's untimely death not evidence that I'm not lying about my investigations? I don't believe that Pablo hinted at his Innocent role, which is one reason why I chose to investigate him...because I thought he might be scum.

It's called not paying attention and Night talk. The thing about Naomi doesn't prove a thing. And you were wrong about her claimed role. So it even gets worse.
As for Pablo, no, it doesn't mean that you are speaking the truth.

-No role PM so far claimed has ''an fellow Innocents''. All the others have claimed ''and fellow humans''.

This is basically it regarding Stepho.

That the PMs are apparently inconsistent does not make me a liar. And Amished (who seems to be the most familiar with the series) has already described why the choice of wording may be deliberate and make sense.

It means that you are fake claiming. So yes, you are lying.
And no, Amished explanation doesn't make sense after checking it again. He states that Janine doesn't know a thing about the situation, which is why he thinks she's aligned with the Innocents. He hasn't explained yet why the Innocents aren't alligned with the Innocents than, but with the humans.

[ZazieR]

@zazier - is there anything Naomi has done that is not explained by the fact that this is her very first game? If she is scum, stepho is also scum since he claimed an innocent on her. That would mean we have TWO fake claiming cop roles and no real cop.

You missed the part where I said that I think we have fake-claiming players?
That's strange as you attacked me for trying to lynch Stepho yesterday.

I do have something I need to post. I received a couple pms from the mod after asking for clarification. The matches are not transferable. I have to keep them and I must be alive at end game for a town win. If I'm not alive at endgame the best the town can get is a draw. The mod also confirmed that the scum do not need the matches to win.

Unvote Vote Setael

[ZazieR]

Unvote

L-2 now if I'm correct.

[ZazieR]

Naomi

, remember to respond to this when/if you get here.

[ZazieR]

It's laughable, yet you would also have voted if it wasn't you?
And add Post 2856 with all the other reasons mentioned why this seems to be a lie.

[ZazieR]

Stepho, the day that rules lie for the first time, will be on the 30th of februari.

[ZazieR]

In case you didn't understand what I was talking about, win conditions don't lie.

[ZazieR]

What did I have to say about those deaths then?
Setael is lying. There has been reasons mentioned why.

What do you have to say about the win condition argument?

[ZazieR]

Once again, the win condition is stated in the OP. It doesn't match with what Setael is claiming. Rules don't lie, players do.
Also, the funny thing is that you are mentioning rule 13:

13. There will be crazy shit, descriptions of unpleasant actions, and things you may well not understand at all in this game. It is not intended to be particularly fair, nice, or easy for the town/innocents. You may be required to actually think,

instead of playing follow the *insert role/s here*

Get used to it. ithurtsithurtsirthurts

May I know why you didn't point that out, while you have claimed an investigation role and want to investigate Setael if that's what the town wants to see what her allignment is?

Also, answer the first question of my previous post.

[ZazieR]

No. It's about the part in the role PM. Each role PM states 'fellow humans'. Only Stepho has claimed 'fellow Innocents'.
You have claimed here that it makes sense. Now I'm asking why the Innocent role PM would state 'felow humans' then when they would fit with the Janine explanation.

(Hope this post is a bit understandable >.<)

[ZazieR]

Amished

Can you respond to this?

[ZazieR]

Xtoxm was SK. He's an independant role, so he doesn't care who dies as long as it isn't him. I've seen enough reasons why you are lying and I've pointed them out.
As for Pablo, it doesn't prove anything.

Rules don't lie. Meaning that the win con for town is to kill every Evil player. Not to kill every Evil player and to burn down the house. It also doesn't make sense to get a draw if we don't burn down the house or a loss.
Reasons have been stated why she's very likely lying. You haven't commented on any of them. You are basing this all on one rule, while another rule states that she's lying.

[ZazieR]

Also, for those interested, rule 13 is a nice rule:

13. There will be crazy shit, descriptions of unpleasant actions, and things you may well not understand at all in this game. It is not intended to be particularly fair, nice, or easy for

the town/innocents

. You may be required to actually think, instead of playing follow the *insert role/s here* Get used to it. ithurtsithurtsirthurts

I just love the bolded. Don't you guys agree, Naomi, Stepho and Amished? Shall we also look at rule 3?:

3.

Innocents

win if they destroy all Evil players. The Evil characters win when they have a majority, and are deemed powerful enough to over-power any and all remaining factions.

Vote Naomi

[ZazieR]

Zaz's vote is very telling. Couple of pages ago she was advocating a stepho lynch. Now there's an active wagon and in the middle of the discussion she totally refocuses on Naomi.

I was voting Naomi before the Setael discussion.
Setael is at L-1. And as I just showed, I don't think there are powerroles.

[ZazieR]

Xtoxm was SK. He's an independant role, so he doesn't care who dies as long as it isn't him. I've seen enough reasons why you are lying and I've pointed them out.
As for Pablo, it doesn't prove anything.

Nothing is "proven" in mafia until someone flips, but explain to me how I'm lying when I clearly tried to save Naomi after trying to have her lynched the day before, and there's been no counterclaim and it's absurd to think there'd be a Chzo game without Trilby. Explain how I cleared Pablo and then he flipped Innocent, just like I said he was, after his having hinted nothing of the sort. Explain how there has been no Janine counterclaim and no cop counterclaim (other than Naomi's, whose roleclaim is legitimate) and every damned thing shows that I'm telling the truth, and yet you continue to harp on PM stuff that the mod has no obligation to keep consistent, and misrepresentations of what I have said. It is really becoming tiresome. I am going to investigate someone tonight, and if I'm still alive tomorrow, I'll report the results and I have 100% confidence that I'll be exactly right. How many more times will I need to do this for you to believe me? Seriously? Do you know what the chances are that I would guess right three, four times in a row?

Check your scum QT and you'll find all the answers for you there
It's not hard to fake claim and adapt the way you play to it if scum know that there are only Innocents. This also gives you the chance to have every 'investigation' correct.

Rules don't lie. Meaning that the win con for town is to kill every Evil player. Not to kill every Evil player and to burn down the house. It also doesn't make sense to get a draw if we don't burn down the house or a loss.
Reasons have been stated why she's very likely lying. You haven't commented on any of them. You are basing this all on one rule, while another rule states that she's lying.

The rules didn't say anything about the win condition not changing, they didn't say anything about blood that would kill you if you drank it, they didn't say anything about a shotgun that it wasn't smart to use, and yet they DID say this would be a different type of game. I am not "basing this all on one rule", I am basing it on me thinking Setael is town and Pablo's request for protection and the fact that I can investigate Setael tonight if it will make everyone feel better.

All those things are based upon game mechanics. Those have nothing to do with win conditions. Invalid comparison.
Logic shows Setael is lying. We don't know why Pablo requested doc protection as the matches can do something different than what Setael is claiming. And you are very likely lying about your role.

(Will post more when I get back)

[ZazieR]

Wrong. If the house must be destroyed to win, we lose.
It says ALL Evil characters. So if the house is one, we can't destroy all.

[ZazieR]

See the OP Hohum. Rule 7 if I'm correct. Already pointed that out.

[ZazieR]

Did the shotgun shell go poof at the end of the day? No. No it didn't.

The game may hang in the balance, and I can investigate Setael tonight if everyone insists--there's no way she should be the lynch. If she is town, there is no reason for her to be lying about the matches. If she is scum, WE CAN LYNCH HER TOMORROW.

You really haven't looked at my reasons why I think she's lying, now have you?

[ZazieR]

Uhum?!
If I'm right, I'll be expecting lots of apologies (This goes for everybody)

[ZazieR]

@Zazier:

Is it OK that Stepho investigates you tonight because I don't like how you have been PM rolefishing. I don't think you actually believe there are no power roles. I think you have been actively probing through everyone's role PM and testing for reactions to determine who is a vanilla and who isn't. I've been watching this with disgust and horror and Amished's post has finally given me the courage to say something about it. We can resolve this issue right here and now tonight.

You've had enough time to answer this.

Check what I'm doing after each post I've made here. You can see I'm posting in a different game as well. I was planning to go back to the previous page when everything has gotten more quiet.
If majority wants it, sure. Then I have no problems with it. Though I rather have it on somebody who is actually acting scummy in case Stepho is telling the truth.

[ZazieR]

Setael

, please explain how it could become a draw if what you're telling is the truth.

[ZazieR]

It's pretty safe to say that Zaz is of opposite alignment of Steph and Setael.

I don't agree with that at all. If I had to guess, I would guess all three of us are town, although I am certainly not convinced about either of them.

You just wanted to lynch me.

[ZazieR]

Dramonic, check the VC of the end of day 2. There were more who didn't believe Stepho. Don't know what their stances are today.

[ZazieR]

Stepho

, have you voted Dramonic today?

[ZazieR]

Stepho, just state if you have 'investigated' scum or town without adding a name at the start of the day. That way, if you claim to have scum investigated, they don't know who and can still squirm.

[ZazieR]

Then answer this Stepho: Since when have you been suspicious of Dramonic?

[ZazieR]

Stepho, just state if you have 'investigated' scum or town without adding a name at the start of the day. That way, if you claim to have scum investigated, they don't know who and can still squirm.

I will do that, but I will also add a coded message with all of the details, so everyone can tell I'm not just making them up later, if need be. You should like that.

Oh, that's actually a good idea.

[ZazieR]

Stepho has claimed results before. He wasn't modkilled for it. So if it was true, he can do it without being modkilled.

[ZazieR]

I am now lost.

The way I understand it, he says he's going to say the result directly, but add the whole pm in code under

The way I understand it, he will put the results into code.

[ZazieR]

Ok, absolute worst case scenario: Set is telling the truth and for us to win we have to keep her alive (and then lynch her today).

I trust Stepho to investigate her, and I have enough protections to cover her, steph and me at least. I'd need to look over dramonic as a lot of people are saying that he's scummy, but for now:

Unvote
Vote: Zazier

There's nothing wrong with stating reasons, you know?

[ZazieR]

Ok, absolute worst case scenario: Set is telling the truth and for us to win we have to keep her alive (and then lynch her today).

I trust Stepho to investigate her, and I have enough protections to cover her, steph and me at least. I'd need to look over dramonic as a lot of people are saying that he's scummy, but for now:

Unvote
Vote: Zazier

There's nothing wrong with stating reasons, you know?

Oh, you don't know why others think Dramonic is scummy?:
You sure?p=1751638#1751638

[ZazieR]

Ok, absolute worst case scenario: Set is telling the truth and for us to win we have to keep her alive (and then lynch her today).

I trust Stepho to investigate her, and I have enough protections to cover her, steph and me at least. I'd need to look over dramonic as a lot of people are saying that he's scummy, but for now:

Unvote
Vote: Zazier

There's nothing wrong with stating reasons, you know?

Oh, you don't know why others think Dramonic is scummy?:
You sure?

Fixed (I think )

[ZazieR]

Sironi and Zwet are V/LA (Zwet gets back tomorrow if correct)
Rocka and Naomi have already been prodded.

[ZazieR]

Zaz: It doesn't say fellow humans, it says I win with the humans (threats to the humans have been eliminated.) Also, 13 further solidifies my stance that humans/innocents can be used interchangeably. This *should* help to clear stepho (and therefore Naomi) in your eyes, but you vote for Naomi (who's NK-immune) anyways.

Sorry, thought you had said ''fellow humans''. However, if you aren''t a human and have claimed to be a Creature of Good Will (aka a spirit), then why do you believe Stepho''s claim?
Secondly, if humans and Innocents are the same, aren''t you saying that you are scum as you aren''t human?
But that doesn''t matter, because you are looking wrong. It''s not that humans and Innocents can be used interchangeably. Rule 13 shows that town and Innocents can be used interchangeably. In other words, if you aren''t an Innocent, you aren''t town. Rule 3 proves this further by stating the Innocents win condition. So no, it doesn''t clear Stepho at all.

As for why I''m voting Naomi, if I''m wrong and there are powerroles (though I doubt it), we still have the claimed role cop alive. But if Naomi is scum, we know that you and Stepho are lying as well.

[ZazieR]

Also, for those interested, rule 13 is a nice rule:

13. There will be crazy shit, descriptions of unpleasant actions, and things you may well not understand at all in this game. It is not intended to be particularly fair, nice, or easy for

the town/innocents

. You may be required to actually think, instead of playing follow the *insert role/s here* Get used to it. ithurtsithurtsirthurts

I just love the bolded. Don't you guys agree, Naomi, Stepho and Amished? Shall we also look at rule 3?:

3.

Innocents

win if they destroy all Evil players. The Evil characters win when they have a majority, and are deemed powerful enough to over-power any and all remaining factions.

Vote Naomi

Just to make this perfectly clear in case some bandwagon might start up, Naomi is Trilby. She claimed it, I investigated her, her claim is legitimate. There has been no Trilby counterclaim, and it's absurd to think there'd be a Chzo game without Trilby, who is, you know, the protagonist of the whole thing. Please do not vote for Naomi. Thank you.

As stated, I think you are lying. So that''s not valid.
Depending on Naomi''s flavour claim, the part of Trilby might also not be valid. Which is why I want to hear from her asap.

[ZazieR]

@Steph: I'm willing to lynch Zaz right now, but if we lynch Set (which I'm also willing to do) would you investigate her? This would help clear up a lot of things for me, and probably for the whole town. You'll get one of my protections.

I would prefer to lynch dramonic, because I think he's the most likely to be scum. I'm not crazy about a Zazier lynch, because while it's possible that she's scum, I think it's more likely that she's just insane. I absolutely do not want to lynch Setael, I think it's a far better idea to lynch someone else and then let me investigate her.

If I haven''t asked yet why you are suspicious of Dramonic, I want to do it now. Stepho, why are you suspicious of Dramonic?
Please re-answer or link if you have already explained why.

[ZazieR]

Check your scum QT and you'll find all the answers for you there
It's not hard to fake claim and adapt the way you play to it if scum know that there are only Innocents. This also gives you the chance to have every 'investigation' correct.

Luckily, there are several of us who know that there aren't "only Innocents". Sorry you supposedly didn't get a sweet role. Maybe next time.

Rules state differently. Rules don''t lie, players do.
And in case you are interested, there''s only one role I like more than townie and that''s being a vig.

All those things are based upon game mechanics. Those have nothing to do with win conditions. Invalid comparison.
Logic shows Setael is lying. We don't know why Pablo requested doc protection as the matches can do something different than what Setael is claiming. And you are very likely lying about your role.

(Will post more when I get back)

Now, I certainly know you need to be careful about trusting anyone in mafia, but is there ANYONE you think ISN'T lying? Because the guy you seemed to like most of all flipped scum, and the conspiracy that would have to be pulled off for all the claimed power roles to actually be scum, which you seem to believe, boggles the mind. And keep in mind that I know with 100% certainty that both Naomi and I are town, and I would be absolutely shocked if Amished's claim isn't legitimate.

I don''t trust players that easily. But I believe players who I don''t suspect more than players I suspect. So as answer, right now, the players I''m not attacking. But if Naomi flips scum, there''s one exception in that group at whom I want to look.
May I ask why you pointed out that Xtoxm flipped SK?

[ZazieR]

In case someone quick hammers I think zazier and dramonic are scum and possibly Tajo. I gave you a post # Tajo (you in iso). You said I was obv town and didn't say why, though I assumed it was because I was trying to get people to stop claiming Innocent.

Your case against me and your reason for suspecting Tajo, as you have claimed you''d also have voted based upon the matches claim, please.

[ZazieR]

Wrong. If the house must be destroyed to win, we lose.
It says ALL Evil characters. So if the house is one, we can't destroy all.

After thinking, this is incorrect.
If the Manor is an Evil character, we must destroy it to win. So if we don''t we can''t win. However, the Manor doesn''t seem to be a player. So if every other Evil character is destroyed, no town player will get killed.
So with the Manor not destroyed, but with every other Evil character killed, it''s a draw. If Setael is telling the truth, it''s possible for a draw.

[ZazieR]

Did the shotgun shell go poof at the end of the day? No. No it didn't.

The game may hang in the balance, and I can investigate Setael tonight if everyone insists--there's no way she should be the lynch. If she is town, there is no reason for her to be lying about the matches. If she is scum, WE CAN LYNCH HER TOMORROW.

You really haven't looked at my reasons why I think she's lying, now have you?

If she's lying, WE CAN LYNCH HER TOMORROW.

I have absolutely read everything you have posted...and I have found you to be consistently wrong.

Then state why my reasons for thinking that Setael is lying are invalid.

[ZazieR]

Dramonic's unvote actually makes me more sure he's scum. He knows I'm town and therefore knows I'm telling the truth. Scum don't want a draw. They want to win. IMO he's unvoting in hopes it will earn him town points when I flip town. At that point it will be impossible for town to win but it will be possible for scum to win rather than draw.

Why did you only point out Dramonic''s unvote out and not mine?

[ZazieR]

7. Any items found during the day must be used BEFORE the lynch on that day

unless expressly stated in the item PM

that this is not the case. Items given/found during the night can be used at the player's discretion.

SOMEONE

is playing an angle here. If we lynch properly we'll find out who. It's pretty safe to say that Zaz is of opposite alignment of Steph and Setael.

I hadn''t looked at the full rule. The first part was all I cared about as I thought it was the case for each item.

[ZazieR]

@Amished

Can you say how many players you ''protected'' N1 and D2 for that matter?

[ZazieR]

@Zaz: Something I posted 17 days ago, with me working 2 jobs and playing softball two nights a week kinda distracts me from anything that didn't happen in the last like 3 days. For my vote on you, I think your position that there's no power roles is utterly craptastic and is the only way you can try to push a lynch on somebody that you can't NK as you're still the only one going after Naomi. According to my own thoughts of two weeks ago, I thought that you might be scum with him (well, him with you) so either works for me.

As already stated, I''m going after Naomi in case there are powerroles. Other than that, she refuses to flavour claim (as she didn''t respond to it after I asked her a few times) and that the player who she has claimed to have investigated doesn''t make sense.
But if you disagree with what the rules state (aka the two rules I pointed out why I think there are no powerroles) state why.

[ZazieR]

Unvote

It just occurred to me that there's a lot of people tying themselves to Setael's flip. Here's what I propose the proper course of action is, just to heir on the side of caution:

1) Lynch someone else tonight and let StephO investigate Setael
2) Lynch StephO tomorrow in order to confirm the investigation result

If at that point the investigation result is sound

3) Lynch ZazieR
4) Lynch Lamont

If the investigation result is not sound

3) Lynch Setael
4) Lynch Dramonic or Pyro next.

Are you setting up lynches now?
Also, where would Naomi be?

[ZazieR]

then what's your alternative? I'm not about to vote myself and it seems people don't want to lynch Rock for serving no purpose.

As for Zaz, she's mental, but I don't think she's scum.

My proposition, as I have mentioned several times, is to lynch you, then I investigate Setael (I hate to do this, because I think she's town, but I'll do it if need be), then keep going.

Wasn''t your plan to not state the one who you''d investigate/ had investigated?

[ZazieR]

I think they'd be more like dramonic and zazier, unvoting to avoid too much suspicion and never really pushing my lynch that hard.

Wrong. First of all, I was one of the first who pointed out how likely it is that you are lying. Secondly, I unvoted because I didn''t fell comfortable with you at L-1.
Also, if you are telling the truth (Which I''d know if I am scum) why wouldn''t I want to lynch you as it would sure I wouldn''t lose with my team?

[ZazieR]

No, Naomi should be lynched.

[ZazieR]

I''ve shown two rules that show that there are very likely no powerroles.
If we lynch Naomi, we can test this. If she''s scum, we know that Amished and Stepho are so as well. In case she''s town, we still have the stronger roles alive.

[ZazieR]

Where am I PR fishing?

[ZazieR]

LYNCH SET NOW!

[/b]

No, Naomi is the way to go.

[ZazieR]

unvote, vote: zazier

Post 2984 took you above dramonic on my scum list.

Your WIFOM condemns you. I'm certainly not saying scum would not support my lynch at all. I'm still a town lynch which they'd certainly prefer over a scum lynch. What I am saying is that scum don't automatically win if I die so they would not be willing to attract suspicion in exchange for my lynch. It would make more sense to support the wagon without being as over the top as Lamont. They wouldn't want to push it so hard that the town turns on them when I flip town and you find out I was telling the truth and the best we can get is a draw. I would think scum would be more forward thinking since they will still be able to play for a win at that point. This is exactly how you've been playing. I think you're scum.

So because I think that the fake powerroles are more likely scum than you, I''m scum? Even you admit that you wouldn''t believe the claim if somebody else had made it. I''m scum for going after a player who''s more likely scum?
You are also saying that you want to live an extra day. If Naomi gets lynched and she''s town, that proves that Stepho is telling the truth and if he investigates you and he gets an Innocent result, you are save. I''d be giving the draw away. Tell me why I''d do that.

Also, based upon rules 3 and 13, do you think that there could be powerroles. A yes or a no is enough.

[ZazieR]

As for the power roles, imo amished is confirmed by this matches garbage, as without a multiple-protect doc, there's no way the mod would rest the town's win condition on one person.

In other words, if Naomi is scum, we''ve got four scum caught. If Naomi is town, we have three confirmed players.
Still convinced that Naomi is the lynch for today.

[ZazieR]

In response to the first paragraph of post 3003:

For more flavor (while trying to avoid being modkilled): From going through the games, I always thought of my character as the gatekeeper, and I'm pretty sure they referred to me as that at one time. In my PM it does say Caretaker, but does say I'm Jonathan. I'm a prisoner of fate, yadda yadda yadda;

delivered myself the blade to kill myself to become a spirit

both directed by fate and to ensure that fate continues the way it's supposed to. Say's that because of killing myself I've become almost as powerful as the mastermind to open the bridge between worlds (Chzo). Goes into explanation how that the prisoner of fate translates into me being a doctor and saving people that need to be saved and all.

As for the rest of the first paragraph, you used it to try and confirm Stepho. Now that I have proved that this isn''t the case, it becomes invalid. Which isn''t the case. Why would the mod state when Innocents win if there are town powerroles? And why would he use town/innocents in rule 13 if there are town pwerroles.
He wouldn''t. Which shows there aren''t any to me.

BTW: How does Naomi potentially flipping scum tie to me? If she's scum, of course stepho is, but I don't have an investigation. Because they were scum doesn't have a bearing on my own. I see that as a feeble attempt to chain lynches without the proper logic to back it up (like hohum was talking about steph -> Naomi, but even then we'd have to look at it from a normal scumhunting perspective as Stepho could have hypothetically been telling the truth on Naomi's role.

See rules 3 and 13. It says Innocents. If one of the three is lying, all of you are.

@Zaz: Why do you feel it relevant to divulge how many protections I have in a night?

Not in

a

night. I asked for how many ''protections'' you used N1. For the information it will give.

@Lamont: Yes, the claim is unconfirmed. However, since you openly stated that you think Zaz is scum (which I agree with), we can lynch her, keep an unsupported claim til tomorrow with an investigation on Setael, then in an attempt to confirm all of Steph's investigations we can lynch him and see where Set stands at that point. Isn't that a better course of action than to lynch somebody that might have a key to a win condition?

Bad posting. Why lynch Stepho when a Naomi lynch will confirm Stepho if she turns up town?

[ZazieR]

He requested a 2 week V/LA, which was announced by the mod on the 7th of July. So he should be back any time soon.

[ZazieR]

Naomi could be scum and amished be town.

Very unlikely. If Naomi is scum, it means that there is no town-Trilby. Otherwise, that player should push for a Naomi lynch. So either, the scum are the main characters from the games or there are no main characters present. Both show that Amished is scum if Naomi is scum.

[ZazieR]

I'm of the opinion that Stephoscope and Setael are the same alignment.

Then lynch Naomi. If Naomi turns up scum, Stepho is scum. If Naomi is town, Stepho is very likely town.
We can confirm his allignment and keep him alive by lynching Naomi in case his claim is true.

[ZazieR]

If we let him investigate and then lynch him, nothing is forced. It's simply confirmed at that point.

Why are players proposing to lynch Stepho after he has given his results on Setael, when a lynch on Naomi can give us the same information as well?

[ZazieR]

It is absolutely clear that none of you are clear.

This. So support a Naomi lynch to find out what their allignments are.