Phables: Death Note Mafia (Game Over)

[magnus_orion]

Fact: Kairyuu is in a game with magnus_orion.

Fact:

Kairyuu

magnus_orion is town.

Fact: Kairyuu has yet to be the same alignment as magnus_orion.

Conclusion:

magnus_orion

kairyuu is scum.

fixed

vote: kairyuu

[magnus_orion]

Hey, people! I'm Mastin. Most of you have seen me before, some have not. I'm eternally scummy, and this time, you're right to vote me! Because I'm a ticked off scum guy who might as well be a serial killer because I know the role name of my partners, and not who they are, and while we have a quick topic, none of them confirmed! Yay! <_<
Let's scum hunt:

Mastin Votes: Mastin

.

...........

you are either lying or not playing toward your win condition. Unless this is normal for you, which I sincerely hope its not,

unvote
vote mastin

[magnus_orion]

Hey, people! I'm Mastin. Most of you have seen me before, some have not. I'm eternally scummy, and this time, you're right to vote me! Because I'm a ticked off scum guy who might as well be a serial killer because I know the role name of my partners, and not who they are, and while we have a quick topic, none of them confirmed! Yay! <_<
Let's scum hunt:

Mastin Votes: Mastin

.

...........

you are either lying or not playing toward your win condition. Unless this is normal for you, which I sincerely hope its not,

unvote
vote mastin

Note my comment on the matter. He does it all the time, and I am expecting that he will claim you to be scum and vote you now. That seems to be the general progression from what I've seen.

Noted.
Mastin should be vig-killed if possible due to wifom.
Since that is my position, voting him is pointless.

unvote
vote: kairyuu

[magnus_orion]

Yes. But he claims to have a death note. As per the rules, we must gain and destroy all death notes, and vigging him forces shinigami to drop death note as per the rules.

[magnus_orion]

Yes. But he claims to have a death note. As per the rules, we must gain and destroy all death notes, and vigging him forces shinigami to drop death note as per the rules.

LOL where's a good day vig when you need one right?

If I were a day vig I'd have already shot him. (*has always wanted to be a day vig in a game*)

[magnus_orion]

@kai, was that a vi-kill or a vig-kill?

[magnus_orion]

Lose their death notes, lose the game.

I don't remember this being mentioned anywhere, mr. mastin. Its sounds like you may have inside knowledge.

[magnus_orion]

I imagine the connection is rather obvious. Shinigami have to have a deathnote. Anyone watching the anime would know this. Losing it via lynching/night-kills would devastate them, making me think they'd instantly lose.
Simple logic, really.

That's terrible logic.
It says they have unique win conditions, which could or could not be independant of whether or not they had a death note. Unless you have inside knowledge, it would be impossible for you to even tell their death note had any major effect at all toward completing their win condition.

[magnus_orion]

I don't publicize my scum tells.

unvote
vote: lamont

Like this?

[magnus_orion]

Its not "rolefishing" if I'm looking for roles that aren't pro-town. Then its called "scumhunting"

If not having a death note, what do you think their win condition is?

I didn't say that wasn't it. It might very well be. Afterall, you appear to know.
All I know is that you've not only claimed shinigami, you've also indicated that you have information that, if true, only shinigami should have.
Your explanation doesn't make sense, so I suspect you.

[magnus_orion]

Yet vote for Lamount instead...

Yes, I have my reasons. I want to hear what lamont thinks they are, actually...

[magnus_orion]

double post:

Seriously, though. This is my logic. It's how I play. I speculate.

If this is the case, then, for my brain's sake, call it speculation. Not logic.
Logic is something else.

[magnus_orion]

Yet vote for Lamount instead...

Yes, I have my reasons. I want to hear what lamont thinks they are, actually...

I believe you are scumhunting in the RVS as am I. It's all good.

Way to be vague.
What made me vote YOU though?

[magnus_orion]

It's both.

Then explain how its logic.

[magnus_orion]

Mastin, could you stop linking to posts... please?
The quote button is a beutiful alternative (that doesn't force me to open a new window to read your posts).

[magnus_orion]

Mastin, could you stop linking to posts... please?

I get called out for quoting line by line in posts, where they recommend hyperlinking, I get called out for linking posts. I can't win. :/

The quote button

I don't use the quote button often. I much prefer the Quick Reply box.

is a beutiful alternative (that doesn't force me to open a new window to read your posts).

Clicking links automatically opens it in a new window/tab, depending on your settings.

Oh yes, stop quoting line by line as well. I really hate that. You could quote posts normally, or quote larger sections of posts.

[magnus_orion]

Oh yes, stop quoting line by line as well.

It's one or the other. Becuase

*I*

hate posts WITHOUT quotes with a passion, and have a STRONG dislike for quote pyramids. I did so earlier only due to it being convenient.

I really hate that.

So vote me. Vote a player for a reason other than scum hunting to attract attention to yourself.

You could quote posts normally

Leads to quote pyramids,

or quote larger sections of posts.

Leads to confusion.

So I hear you don't leik quote pyramids.
I might have fun with that latter, since you're aggravating me with your methods of quoting.

[magnus_orion]

Mastin, remind me why you think I'm scum. I'm a tad confused on that bit. Is it just 'cause I voted you?

[magnus_orion]

You've had multiple changes of mind within three pages.

Expect more of this. I do it as town.
A lot.

Are you attempting to draw reactions with your votes,

No, though it is a side benefit of my tenedency to change my mind.


ACK! He's got me doing it!

[magnus_orion]

Yea, and that's sooooo pro-town...[/sarcasm]

It is, actually. By freeing yourself from fear of being accused of backpedaling you can give towntells more weight and find scum by process of elimination if necessary. I've found lots and lots of scum day 1. And have been a consistant night 1 kill.

Links, please.

okay.

viewtopic.php?t=10115
viewtopic.php?p=1351056#1351056

You could also ask kairyuu...

[magnus_orion]

Also,

I've found lots and lots of scum day 1.

If this is true, who are the scum? Surely, even with only five people truly weighing in, there's something...

I don't know who the scum are at this point and time. I suspect you have a death note and I suspect lamont. We are five pages in and you've thrown off my normal gambits with your own.

Changing opinions-->Pro-town.

Changing opinions OFTEN in THREE PAGES-->Scummy.

why's that?

I feel your pain.

I imagine you do. Our playstyles are similar. Unfortunately, by using yours, you have interfered with mine. Which is part of the reason I dislike your play so much.
Doesn't change the fact I think you're a neutral with a death not, still.

[magnus_orion]

As have I, but just for proof, links?

Same links

[magnus_orion]

That all?

Several ongoing games as well.

[magnus_orion]

What makes you suspect lamount?

What makes you suspect Lamount more than me?

Odd, even if a player dislikes my playstyle due to their own, I'd think that if it's similar, they'd only begin to like it. (Unless they're of an opposite alignment)

1: Death Note-->Scum.

So why are you not voting me?

2: Suspicions-->Accusations of a person being scum. This seems hypocritical with your earlier line of not knowing who the scum are at this point in time.

I do happen to have an idea. I just don't have my normal level of conviction yet. If you didn't respond to the bits of my post rather than the post as a whole, you'd understand that.

I suspect you are a shinigami who has a death note. This is because you talked about losing death notes being detrimental to the shinigami win condition, which I don't think you'd have thought that upon reading those rules.
I suspect lamont of being scum.

Neutral < scum
therefore I'm voting the scum one.

I'm refusing to give my reasons until I hear what lamont has to say about why he thinks I'm voting him. I theorize the reason he was extremely vague was because he didn't want to point out something different to give me additional evidence.

[magnus_orion]

Odd, even if a player dislikes my playstyle due to their own, I'd think that if it's similar, they'd only begin to like it. (Unless they're of an opposite alignment)

sorry, forgot to respond to this.
Its 'cause I don't like your intial gambit of making yourself look scummy. Since our play is similar, the differences are enunciated and highlights everything I think you are doing "wrong"

[magnus_orion]

Well, it worked, didn't it? With only four other players other than myself, I managed to snap us out of the RVS in less than a few hours. In less than three pages, we were already seriously discussing things. It's also useful in catching scum, and my scum trap seems to have ensnared you and Lamount.

Yes, but my scum traps required me to "fall" for your scum traps. Rather than be the fall-guy, I make somebody else the fall-guy. Its safer.

[magnus_orion]

Yes, but my scum traps required me to "fall" for your scum traps.

What information can be gained from you, essentially, bandwagonning?

Rather than be the fall-guy, I make somebody else the fall-guy.

So, basically, you're afraid of being bandwagonned? Why?

Its safer.

Why are you so concerned about your safety?

Caution-->Scumtell. (If you don't mind, I'll be gone a few hours while I go on and write that article before someone tries to steal it--I've pushed for this idea in several games, after all)

I'm not concerned about my safety. You misunderstand, this is my general playstyle. I find its safer because people are more willing to listen to you and not think you scummy if you don't do something scummy outright. Plus, scum are less likely to think that there is a trap waiting for them. I agree that being concerned with one's own safety is a scumtell.

I set someone up as a mislynch and see who agrees with me.
You set yourself up as a mislynch and see who suspects you.

[magnus_orion]

Hey, people! I'm Mastin. Most of you have seen me before, some have not. I'm eternally scummy, and this time, you're right to vote me! Because I'm a ticked off scum guy who might as well be a serial killer because I know the role name of my partners, and not who they are, and while we have a quick topic, none of them confirmed! Yay! <_<
Let's scum hunt:

Mastin Votes: Mastin

.

...........

you are either lying or not playing toward your win condition. Unless this is normal for you, which I sincerely hope its not,

unvote
vote mastin

So you think/thought that he wasn't playing towards his win condition. Why did you think this?
Also, you stated that this could be his normal approach. Why didn't you check if this is the case?

If he was telling the truth, that's not playing toward his win condition.
I did check if that was the case. I could unvote at any time.

[magnus_orion]

Lamont, why is kairyuu scum?
...

[magnus_orion]

I don't publicize my scum tells.

unvote
vote: lamont

Like this?

Uhm, I don't understand this vote

distancing?

I'm talking about the reason of the vote. Magnus quoted Lamont, and I don't understand why that's a reason to vote.

Its not.

[magnus_orion]

I don't publicize my scum tells.

unvote
vote: lamont

Like this?

Uhm, I don't understand this vote

distancing?

I'm talking about the reason of the vote. Magnus quoted Lamont, and I don't understand why that's a reason to vote.

Its not.

No explanation behind the vote?

not yet.
Maybe after lamont tells me what he thinks he's done that is scummy.

[magnus_orion]

______________________________________

Yes, but my scum traps required me to "fall" for your scum traps. Rather than be the fall-guy, I make somebody else the fall-guy. Its safer.

Are you voting Lamont_Cranston in order to try and draw scum to his wagon?

I set someone up as a mislynch and see who agrees with me.

You can't even tell the alignment of the player, so how can you tell if it is a mislynch?

Perhaps I am, perhaps not, and the way other players interact lets me know if it is a mislynch or not.

Other players are not expected to tell you why you are voting for them.

Yes.
However, lamont has stated a policy of not announcing what he finds scummy. I intend to foricibly draw discussion out of him.

[magnus_orion]

Holy shit, this game grows pages like dandelions grow in my backyard. Erm, more content later.

I'm watching zazieR v. Zeenon with some interest.
Zeenon, your questioning of mastin faded fairly quickly. Do you no longer think he was being serious? Why?

[magnus_orion]

See mastin, this is what gets me. Rather than state your opinion on everything and then your conclusion, why don't you state your conclusions and then the opinions that lead you to them?
It would make reading your posts a lot easier.

[magnus_orion]

Magnus, I tried that.

Remember me talking about my would-be-unlynched-as-town record?

Yea, that's what did it. <_<

I thought you said it was you playing defensively...

[magnus_orion]

I thought you said it was you playing defensively...

It was both. Defensive, and stating conclusions to go on the offensive, when ready to go onto the offensive, too late. :/

Then how can you tell it was both that were responsible?

[magnus_orion]

Yes, I was interested as to why myk as well...

1: Long paragraphs are nearly impossible to follow.

2: Not using quote tags at all is more confusing than anything else.

1. No, long paragraphs are easy to follow

2. You're one to talk.

[magnus_orion]

Actually, hold it.

2: This is hypocritical, for you're starting a bandwagon on Myk, an easy wagon as well

Mastin, explain.

[magnus_orion]

Dissecting gets better scum-hunting done.

I won't accept this without evidence.

[magnus_orion]

Odd, I had extreme trouble following it.

Try reading first, then responding. Rather than respond-as-you-read, which its sorta obvious is what you do.

[magnus_orion]

Yes.
However, lamont has stated a policy of not announcing what he finds scummy. I intend to foricibly draw discussion out of him.

Ok, let me

finally

clear this up now that I understand it.

That statement was in response to the crappy analysis of my wiki by Kai. In said fecal-based analysis, Kai said he didn't like how no scum tells are listed in it.

My response was "I don't

list

my scum tells."

I explain scum-tells in-thread.

...
Okay, I misunderstood that, but that's not what I found scummy. However that misunderstanding does negate my attempt to force you to discuss...
What I found scummy was your insistance that you weren't using adhom when you clearly were. If something is "crappy" explain how and why. Do not declare it such. Doing so creates needless thread noise. Ad hom is scummy, but not nearly as much as panicing and insisting that you weren't.

I cannot say Kai is scum but I definately don't get town vibes and I have outlined the case clearly and I have left nothing out of what I don't like in my previous post on page 5.

You did say Kai was scum, though:

Ok folks now that the furious action has lulled, its time for a brief LC overview:

Prob-town

Ortolan
KMD
Magnus
Zee

Scum-like

Kairu
Mastin

Case on Kairu to follow.

...

[magnus_orion]

Ok town, here's what we need:

A MASTIN-ECTOMY!

psst: we're not supposed to format text meaninglessly.

[magnus_orion]

And wouldn't Mastin be mod-killed if he was telling the truth about being Shinigami?

No. The reason why is in your post.

[magnus_orion]

Huh. Mastin got shot (presumably by a dayvig) And he was town.
...

vote: Lamont

Not buying this kise wagon. Looks

really

fabricated. Kise's posts show a familiarity with mastin's playstyle. Therefore, being able to judge based on meta alone would be perfectly reasonable. This wagon stinks of opportunistic scum trying to take advantage of the sudden new development (and rock the mob opinion away from analyzing those on the wagon)

@Kise: ... Your reasoning for that being a modkill makes so many fallicious assumptions, its simply staggering. How about you ask the mod to clarify the rules, rather than make assumptions. I believe making claims is fine (and I'm going to go out on a limb here, but considering its a mafia game, lying about said claims is probably okay too), Gelus merely wants to avoid cryptography and joint cooperation (like through night-talks, perhaps) in an attempt to break the game or gain a significant advantage (Like secret messages or signals or what not). I could be wrong. But arguing about it accomplishes nothing when there is a more direct solution (asking the Mod) to figuring out who's right.

[magnus_orion]

Kise's posts show a familiarity with mastin's playstyle.

Something in the back of my mind tells me I should be offended.

I would ask Gelus, but he gets pestered with a lot of mod-specific questions and I'd like to avoid rule #1 (Don't piss him off).

Does the first statement mean my analysis about you and mastin was wrong?

[magnus_orion]

First explain how we're similar in play-style.

I didn't...

All I said was that you seemed to know the manner in which mastin plays, or more specifically, you've played games with mastin before and understand how he plays as town and how he plays as not town.

[magnus_orion]

Lamont gains suspicion for his IIOA on lurkers.
Myk is getting a close second for his opportunism.
Myk, who do you think is scum (please name everyone)?

Raye Penber = townie
About Raye (more than you ever wanted to know):

Raye is ordered by the FBI (under orders from L) to investigate certain members of the Japanese taskforce looking for Kira, since Kira has shown he has access to police information. He comes to Japan with his awesome fiance (whom he is a total jerk to, imo), and solver of the Los Angeles BB Murder Case, Naomi Misora. One of Raye's assignments involves tracking Light and reporting on his actions. Ryuk tells Light about Raye, because it "bothers" him that they are being followed by another human. Light uses the deathnote to stage a busjacking and uses it to convince Raye to show his ID to prove he is an FBI agent. Light then, later, uses a radio transever and pages from the death note in envelopes to have Raye write down his fellow FBI agents' and direct superior's names, by threatening him with the death of his fiance, whom Raye unprofessionally gave away the existance of at the begining of his meeting with Light. Thus, Light is able to reveal that L was investigating the task force, leading them to distrust L, get those investigating him to fear for their lives, and eliminate the FBI investigators. However, L notices some odd behavior by Raye in the survelance video of Raye's death, and decides to focus his investigation on those Raye was investigating. He proceeds to place cameras and wiretaps in the households of those people (in violation of japanese law), and, analyzing the people living in those households, determines (correctly) that the one most likely to be Kira is Light Yagami. However, since he is working directly with Light's father in the investigation, he lies about his amount of certainty, saying it is only 5%, when, in reality, it is over 90%
So Raye's death really doesn't help Light, in fact, it leads L directly to Light Yagami, becaue of Light's poorly thought out plans

[magnus_orion]

Can you please provide a link to some series reference where this is so? To where maybe even someone cause shooting to be the death?

Are the notes that powerful?

[magnus_orion]

Ack! that was a bad post, it was meant to be a reply to that...

Can you please provide a link to some series reference where this is so? To where maybe even someone cause shooting to be the death?

Are the notes that powerful?

While the notes could do it, its also likely that someone without a deathnote could have done it.
Hail of gunfire brings to mind four names in particular:
matsuda who is shown to be good with a gun on two occasions, his only saving grace in the series.
mello who is rather extreme in his methods.
watarialthough his method of kill would likely only involve only 1 shot.
matt who litterally dies in a hail of gunfire, from unamed characters

A death note will likely kill via means of a heart attack, but of course, it is by no means its only method of ending someone's life.

[magnus_orion]

What is your reason for coming out with this roleclaim?

People were speculating as to whether or not mastin was a tracker. I'm confirming he was.

Why!? Why would you do this? Why is it important if he was a tracker or not!? He's dead before a single night phase! This leaves the scum knowing a town power role (assuming the claim is true) and gains the town no help in finding the scum, because we don't know if we can trust you, so we can't even narrow it down by 1!
What were you thinking!?

[magnus_orion]

Wagon? There are 3 votes on him and they are based on a fairly sound reason. You even agree that his reasons are fallacious. Explain.

(Huh. Missed this. I wouldn't have noticed it if it hadn't been brought up.)
Okay.
Falacious reasoning =/= scummy
I don't see any sound reasoning going into the wagon, just, "Hey this guy was right about mastin's alignment, but his reasoning is bad! Must be scum!" He hasn't really done anything that I'd think scum would be more likely to do than town. Basically, making bad assumptions is a null-tell, unless those assumptions directly benefit scum in being made. The assumptions he made do not.

[magnus_orion]

Playing strangely to be honest, usually his scumdar is reallly good, hes able to pin point scum but can never convince the town for a lynch. In this case he cant do either. Scum read due to differences hes showing.

We've got 26 players, many of whom have posted little to no content. Coupled with mastin successfully destroying my day 1 gambits, no one stands out as particularly scummy, save lamont and myk. I've got nothing to latch onto.
That said, lamont is looking

really

scummy.

[magnus_orion]

I'm positive about Rem, and Ryuk was stated at the start that he got two if I'm correct. That's why he didn't care to drop one.
But I'm not sure what happened to each of the Death Notes in the end...

Yes. There are 4 notebooks in the show.
Ryuk's
Sidoh's
Gelus's
Rem's

Ryuk's stays with ryuk and he never loses it, he has it at the end of the series
Sidoh's is given back to sidoh after the raid on the American mafia headquarters. It was light's first death note.
Gelus's is one that gets burned at the end of the series.
Rem's is the other that gets burned at the end of the series. (There are two notebooks present at the ending)

Nobody believed my fakeclaim...

...
Why did you fakeclaim?

[magnus_orion]

On killing people with death notes (in the show):

If you write down that someone dies in a hail of bullets, they die in a hail of bullets. However, you cannot specify the source of the hail of bullets with any degree of certainty past the type of individual (like a soldier or police officer). If you were to write "XYZ shoots ABC", then both xyz and abc would die of heart attacks (since xyz's name is written and xyz's death has no specifications ((as the death note cannot cause the indirect death of individuals, the shooting command does not count as a specification for xyz)) it resolves in 40 seconds, but ABC's death has specifications and will resolve in 6 min 40 sec ((400 sec)). However, since xyz would have already died by then, ABC getting shot by Xyz would be impossible, so the death note will default to a heart attack)
If you write "xyz shoots a gun and then dies at 11:02 at location J", and "abc is shot at 11:02 at location J" then it is likely, though not assured, that the death note will have xyz shoot abc.
If the death note cannot find a way for someone to die by the means listed, then they die of a heart attack, and if the death note is to kill anyone who is said to kill someone else in their entry it will instead kill them with a heart attack, and since the other person's name is in the death note, they will die of a heart attack as well, since the first person is no longer involved.
(the complete rules for death notes are extremely complex and cover 10 pages in the "How to Read 13" book)

[magnus_orion]

Lamont who do you suspect and why? Please don't direct me to another post, because I'm starting to lose track of all this.

[magnus_orion]

It should be noted that since some shinigami are probably in posession of a death note, until they are lynched they are, for all intents and purposes, as far as we know, serial killers, who

must

be eliminated as per the town win condition. (only difference is they lose their "serial killer" status, as opposed to dying)
I think that there's been some trouble understanding that.

[magnus_orion]

I am currently suspecting Kai, Zee & Budja for posts about notes that are genuinely suspicious.

@lamont, Could you elaborate on their posts, and why you think they are suspicious, ie. why you think their posts are more likely to come from scum?

[magnus_orion]

It should be noted that since some shinigami are probably in posession of a death note, until they are lynched they are, for all intents and purposes, as far as we know, serial killers, who

must

be eliminated as per the town win condition. (only difference is they lose their "serial killer" status, as opposed to dying)
I think that there's been some trouble understanding that.

What makes you suspect lamount?

What makes you suspect Lamount more than me?

Odd, even if a player dislikes my playstyle due to their own, I'd think that if it's similar, they'd only begin to like it. (Unless they're of an opposite alignment)

1: Death Note-->Scum.

So why are you not voting me?

2: Suspicions-->Accusations of a person being scum. This seems hypocritical with your earlier line of not knowing who the scum are at this point in time.

I do happen to have an idea. I just don't have my normal level of conviction yet. If you didn't respond to the bits of my post rather than the post as a whole, you'd understand that.

I suspect you are a shinigami who has a death note. This is because you talked about losing death notes being detrimental to the shinigami win condition, which I don't think you'd have thought that upon reading those rules.
I suspect lamont of being scum.

Neutral < scum
therefore I'm voting the scum one.

I'm refusing to give my reasons until I hear what lamont has to say about why he thinks I'm voting him. I theorize the reason he was extremely vague was because he didn't want to point out something different to give me additional evidence.

ORLY?
Explain these two quotes.

I don't see how they are mutually exclusive.
The rules state that shinigami are neutral, so that's the word I used.
Lynching mafia is better than lynching neutrals, since mafia have a greater chance to win, since the serial killer (normally) has to be the only one alive to win. Mafia just need a majority (normally). So lynching mafia reduces the greatest threat of an anti-town faction winning that we are aware of (normally, of course).
While this is all true, it should be noted that this game is not necessarily normal, and the mafia might have a different win condition, like the town does. However since we have no way of knowing we should assume that they have their normal win conditions, considering that if they outnumber the town, they have control of the lynch.

[magnus_orion]

Anyway, the above makes perfect sense, except that you rather had Mastin killed by a vig then Lamont. Surely, this reinforces your statement that you rather have scum dead than a neutral[/sarcasm]

vig kill doesn't waste our lynch...
You'll note I'm voting/questioning lamont.

[magnus_orion]

...

Although, myk really caved to pressure to change his vote, as if trying to satisfy people. He's really starting to look more scummy than lamont.

[magnus_orion]

Yes. But he claims to have a death note. As per the rules, we must gain and destroy all death notes, and vigging him forces shinigami to drop death note as per the rules.

Are you claiming this is not pro-town, Zazie?
I'm confused.

Lynching is useful because we can see how people interact when voting on the lynch. Since scum have interactions, while sks do not, lynching scum is better.
It doesn't change the fact that Sks have to be eliminated. Scum hold a higher priority for the lynch is all. I'd rather not waste the lynch when a vig can do the job. Vigging scum and lynching an sk, while good, is a wasted opportunity, since, if done the other way around, we could have studied the reactions on the wagon and have a better chance of finding scum. And of course, there is also the matter I've already explained about mafia being closer than sks to winning.

Also, you claim I'm "active lurking", but I'm waiting on lamont to answer my questions.

[magnus_orion]

I would love for Magnus to start talking now. kthxbye

About what?
I'm waiting for people to post. Peoples need to get caught up with the game, and I'm also waiting for lamont in particular to answer my request for him to sumarise his cases. Honestly, there is so much stuff flying around that Its sort of dizzying.
However, since I was requested to speak I'll go over what's been posted and sumarise a case on my suspects.

[magnus_orion]

Yes. But he claims to have a death note.

As per the rules, we must gain and destroy all death notes

, and vigging him forces shinigami to drop death note as per the rules.

Are you claiming this is not pro-town, Zazie?
I'm confused.

Lynching is useful because we can see how people interact when voting on the lynch. Since scum have interactions, while sks do not, lynching scum is better.
It doesn't change the fact that Sks have to be eliminated. Scum hold a higher priority for the lynch is all. I'd rather not waste the lynch when a vig can do the job. Vigging scum and lynching an sk, while good, is a wasted opportunity, since, if done the other way around, we could have studied the reactions on the wagon and have a better chance of finding scum. And of course, there is also the matter I've already explained about mafia being closer than sks to winning.

Also, you claim I'm "active lurking", but I'm waiting on lamont to answer my questions.

I bolded why I think it should be pointed out and why I think that the quote shows that you're not anti-Kira.
The only thing why it's bad to lynch scum in this set-up is because of this rule and why it's bad to vig possible shinigami's:

In this game, it is possible to obtain a Death Note in several ways. If a player possessing a Death Note is lynched, a random member of the lynch mob receives the Death Note. If a player possessing a Death Note is killed, the killer (if there are multiple killers, one is chosen at random) receives the Death Note

As you've pointed out the rules a few times now, I have trouble believing you didn't know about this rule.

And that active lurking defence is bad, as you asked one question towards Lamont which was asked this morning. Lamont has only one post in this topic afterwards.
So, what about the other days?

Oh! It does say the killer recieves the death note. No, I honestly didn't read that part.
I thought it was distributed at random upon death as per the first part.

I reiterate that I'm waiting for more people to post, rather than the same people posting more. I don't think anyone besides lamont or myk have raised any alarm bells and I've already indicated them two, and am waiting for more people to post so that I can get more reads. There is a point where discussion becomes anti-town if it prevents more people from posting.

Anyway, I'm still working on that case...

[magnus_orion]

EVERYBODY STOP!

Seems we have a genuine scummyperson.

Hey, people! I'm Mastin. Most of you have seen me before, some have not. I'm eternally scummy, and this time, you're right to vote me! Because I'm a ticked off scum guy who might as well be a serial killer because I know the role name of my partners, and not who they are, and while we have a quick topic, none of them confirmed! Yay! <_<
Let's scum hunt:

Mastin Votes: Mastin

.

MOD: Please take note of the quoted post.

Mastin DIE!

Unvote, Vote Mastin

Note the attempt to get Mastin modkilled on page 1. If had actually done something against the rules then yes, I would somewhat agree with you. However, I think you're just being spiteful and trying to end the Day before the RVS has even fully ended.

unvote

vote: Lamont_Cranston

In other news, Mastin is pretty obv-town. Let's get to lynching Lamont-scum.

@Zeenon: Please check the rules post. The mod said to only use formatting if it has a purpose. Color changes are formatting.

@all: Screw it. Lamont is so obv-scum he get's to die right here, right now.

Daykill: Lamont_Cranston

I would of thought you would of learned how to play Mafia by now. apparently you have alot of learning to do.

Ad hom attack.
Early game. Sorta scummy.

Oh God, it's another one. Mmk, I'm just going to head this off before it starts.

@Lamont: Back off. Now. You do not want to press the ad hom further. Trust me.

I love your wiki by the way. It fails to apply at all to actual strong scumtells. Not to mention the fact that you would be hard pressed to avoid your own lynch if you tried to push lynches based solely on those criteria.

@Zeenon: Yes it was. It was totally a real kill. I swear.

Adhom no. Criticizing bad play, yes.

The purpose of my wiki is not to display scum tells, it is to display my unwavering policies regarding certain forms of bad play.

I don't publicize my scum tells.

Denies that it was ad hom. It clearly was. He was saying Kairyuu was playing poorly, without backing up his assertion. This is the definition of ad hom attack.
This is scummy enough to earn him a vote.
Since I was under the impression he was saying he wouldn't say what he thought was scummy, I tried to forcibly draw discussion out of him by forcing him to guess as to why I was voting for him.
It wasn't really important to draw attention to this, anyhow, as its helpful to see who other players think are scummy early on.

Yet vote for Lamount instead...

Yes, I have my reasons. I want to hear what lamont thinks they are, actually...

I believe you are scumhunting in the RVS as am I. It's all good.

Way to be vague.
What made me vote YOU though?

Yet vote for Lamount instead...

Yes, I have my reasons. I want to hear what lamont thinks they are, actually...

I believe you are scumhunting in the RVS as am I. It's all good.

As part of my attempting to draw discussion out of him, I question him on why I'm voting him.
His response is to say I'm scumhunting. While this is true, its not the reason that caused me to vote him.
I see this as attempting to avoid talking about this.
When pressured on this point, he merely repeats himself. Very, very scummy.

What part of:

MOD:

Please take note

of the quoted post.

don't you understand??

Lamount has ignored almost every point against him, and utterly ignored Magnus all together.

You don't get it do you? I ignore

YOU

.

Magnus I have responded to. He refused to listen but w/e. I think he's a good scum hunter unlike you.

You need to die. NAO!

He stubbornly refuses to address my questions adequetely, instead favoring to strawman them with my motives as opposed to my reasons.

Ok folks now that the furious action has lulled, its time for a brief LC overview:

Prob-town

Ortolan
KMD
Magnus
Zee

Scum-like

Kairu
Mastin

Case on Kairu to follow.

Dichotomizes the game based on who holds what opinion of a player, regardless of why they hold that opinion. Not analyzing reasoning is scummy.

Kairu

Fact: Kairyuu is town.

I would totally do that if we were both scum. It would be awesome.

I take a dim view of posts like these; alignment obsession.

Also, obligatory "Mastin that is so anti-town. What are you doing self-voting and claiming scum? Now we hafta lynch you cuz of WIFOM" spiel that won't actually go anywhere.

If you can't tell, I strongly disapprove of that move, but you've ignored everyone else who tried to get you to stop, so I'm not even gonna bother trying.

This is very weak and my gut doesn't like that.

EVERYBODY STOP!

Seems we have a genuine scummyperson.

Hey, people! I'm Mastin. Most of you have seen me before, some have not. I'm eternally scummy, and this time, you're right to vote me! Because I'm a ticked off scum guy who might as well be a serial killer because I know the role name of my partners, and not who they are, and while we have a quick topic, none of them confirmed! Yay! <_<
Let's scum hunt:

Mastin Votes: Mastin

.

MOD: Please take note of the quoted post.

Mastin DIE!

Unvote, Vote Mastin

Note the attempt to get Mastin modkilled on page 1. If had actually done something against the rules then yes, I would somewhat agree with you. However, I think you're just being spiteful and trying to end the Day before the RVS has even fully ended.

unvote

vote: Lamont_Cranston

An obvious crap case (the bold green section is obviously calling for Mod review) and severe buddying with Mastin?? Once again there is just something wrong here.

@Mastin: I don't actually dislike your playstyle, just the initial self-vote. I despise extended RVSs, but I don't really have a problem with the concept if used in moderation (aka. 1 page or less). Usually by then I can find something that I can poke at until it turns into real discussion.

I must admit though, your method is quite effective as well.

Who believes Mastin is in any way effective?? More disgusting buddying with someone who should be default-corpse.

Why would we lynch him (Mastin)? He's obvtown.

OBVTOWN MASTIN?! My goodness, this is beyond the pale! There is something very wrong here.

Kairyuu is far from the fuzzy-villagery feel I'm supposed to get from townies.

Refuses to acknowldge meta arguements.
If it weren't for the whole inside knowledge thing, I would've thought mastin to be town based on meta arguements Kairyuu brought forward.
Ignoring meta = ignoring evidence = lying by ommission = scummy

Lamont attempted to get Mastin mod-killed

I called for a Mod review of his jackassery

because it hurts the game that the Mod worked hard on

. This should make perfect sense to you. Instead you have chosen to drink the kool-aid on that issue.

On Lamont:

I would of thought you would of learned how to play Mafia by now.

This is a personal attack...

I agree. Can we please keep personal attacks out of the game?

And you're wrong. It is a criticism of a playstyle that appeared to result in my death. Tenderfoot much?

Granted, much of this appears to be a joke post and so with

that

understanding I will grant you a genuine "LOL" but generally I have a very narrow sense of humour and so it is harder for me to appreciate such things.

Then you are definitely playing the WRONG game.

Here I think we agree. But I'm not in the wrong game, just in a game where I have to do some adjusting.

Lamount has ignored almost every point against him, and utterly ignored Magnus all together.

You don't get it do you? I ignore

YOU

.

Magnus I have responded to. He refused to listen but w/e. I think he's a good scum hunter unlike you.

You need to die. NAO!

I think blatantly ignoring anyone in a mafia game isn't a good play at all and is incredibly scummy.

Normally of course this is true, but Mastin with his Jackassery is not normal and he needs to DIE, NAO!.

Less Koolaid, more common sense please.

(Common sense can go burn in a fire.
Common sense is to propoganda as thinking is to philosophy)
He continues to ignore me and continues to insist he wasn't using ad hom

I can also see the case against Lamont,

and the way (ad hom) he reacted

This myth has been refuted. Clearly my reaction was based on what appeared to be a vig kill. In addition, it

was not an ad hom

it was an attack on the playtyle that would of produced that vig kill.

Btw, since I'm posting here, I don't like how you join the Kai/Mastin band and say they look town!? Whoops...

Although I agree myk is scummy, I dislike "Everyone who disagrees with my reads is scummy". Altough he did say that he "didn't like it" I'm interpretting that to mean he thinks its scummy.

I cannot say Kai is scum but I definately don't get town vibes and I have outlined the case clearly and I have left nothing out of what I don't like in my previous post on page 5.

You did say Kai was scum, though:

Ok folks now that the furious action has lulled, its time for a brief LC overview:

Scum-like

Kairu
Mastin

Case on Kairu to follow.

Magnus, this should be

very

clear to you:

scum-like

=/=

scum

necessarily

.

I will point out again that it is very early, but it is clear that Kai is on the

wrong

side of this argument and I do not yet know why...

...
I think its obvious the question then becomes: "Fine! Why is kairyuu scummy!?" I started getting sick of his question dodging at this point.
It appears his arguement is that Kairyuu holds a different opinion of mastin than him, and, if this is the case, then the case is bull, and an excuse to try to paint an opposing opinion as scummy.

Same thing[?]

o_O

No. People can do things that are perceived as scummy and not be scum. I don't think Kai is acting in a pro-town way currently but it is too early to determine anything beyond that I think he is "scum-like".

More like you don't want to answer my question because your case sucks.

Ok last post for awhile then. I found two strong Mastin defenders:

In other news, Mastin is pretty obv-town. Let's get to lynching Lamont-scum.

All this talk of, "He needs to be vig-killed so the death note is destroyed," doesn't sit well with me.. You guys do know there are also anti-town here? All of you could target Mastin at night and the DN will more than likely fall in the hands of an SK. Our best bet would have been for Mastin not to claim Shinigami at all, because now we're gonna have a new Kira either way... I think... or maybe the Killers are automatically given a death note(?).

From what I gathered reading the rules, if a killer takes a death note, they somehow buddy up with the Shinigami[?] Or do the multiple Shinigami in this game have their own separate mini-game where they are in a "race" to lose their death notes first[?]

(Just so you guys know, I use the [?] "tags" as a way to express my inner thoughts. It's not as if I really ask any of you to reply to it. Nothing more than reflections.)

And wouldn't Mastin be mod-killed if he was telling the truth about being Shinigami?

(Now THAT is an actual question I pose to everyone.)

LMAO @ Posts 76 & 77. If it weren't for the fact that they were less than a minute apart, I would think Mastin was being an asshole and ignored magnus' request on purpose. But seriously, Mastin, you don't need to comment on EVERYTHING someone says. Especially whenever you're not answering a concern or adding anything relevant.. It makes me feel impulsed to skim through what you post & ignore the quotes.

I get the feeling that magnus or Mastin will continue this little squabble over quote-links, quote-pyramids, etc...

Lol @ "You seem to be craving the noose more than David Carradine." I would never have expected Carradine's name to appear on MS. Ok, at this point, I feel the need to contribute something more beneficial. I could commentate on what I've read so far from up to page 5, but that'd be boring.

The way Mastin is claiming Shinigami and STILL being alive makes it blatant that he has not broken any rules, so I may be gullible by giving him a chance to still claim Shinigami. He's claimed to have been a lot of various PRs & anti-town roles.. Yet hasn't been MK'd. So you have to wonder whether any of his claims ring true if he's still able to play. I believe this is why Kai said that Mastin is obvtown. It's rather cheap, and could suck the fun out of the game if all of us did the same exact thing.. And honestly Mastin, this is the exact reason you get NK'd a lot -- You go so far to confirm your towniness. It would be a good idea for mod's to never make you mafia, since you're always in the hotseat D1 it seems, lol. HOWEVER, because scum believe you are an easy D1 lynch, I've started to keep my eye on who's jumping on your wagon and try to make sense of their reason for voting you (if possible). They are likely the best candidates when it comes to making a suspect/scum list.

I might be looking at Mastin's approach from the wrong angle.. He could very well be a Shinigami who "doesn't care for humans." In which case, I say it's a good idea for "certain" people to lynch him in order for his plan to go through (a plan I presume, anyway).

It's up to Gelus who he picks to hold the death note. A townie could hold/destroy it, or an anti-town player could hold it and become Kira. I don't like leaving things up to chance. Leading a lynch on a supposed Shinigami will only lure in the killers to get a chance at holding a Death Note. On the same token, it sucks that probability has to decide whether a vig or a killer win the death note if both parties target the supposed Shinigami. In short, I am saying that if Mastin WAS genuine on his claim as Shinigami, then that would only result in a new Kira by the time D2 rolled around.

"Only scum could have been correct about mastin's allignment! Its impossible there could be people with meta reads!"

Ok last post for awhile then. I found two strong Mastin defenders:

In other news, Mastin is pretty obv-town. Let's get to lynching Lamont-scum.

All this talk of, "He needs to be vig-killed so the death note is destroyed," doesn't sit well with me..

He's claimed to have been a lot of various PRs & anti-town roles.. Yet hasn't been MK'd. So you have to wonder whether any of his claims ring true if he's still able to play. I believe this is why Kai said that Mastin is obvtown. It's rather cheap, and could suck the fun out of the game if all of us did the same exact thing.. And honestly Mastin, this is the exact reason you get NK'd a lot -- You go so far to confirm your towniness.

It would be a good idea for mod's to never make you mafia, since you're always in the hotseat D1 it seems, lol.

HOWEVER, because scum believe you are an easy D1 lynch, I've started to keep my eye on who's jumping on your wagon and try to make sense of their reason for voting you (if possible). They are likely the best candidates when it comes to making a suspect/scum list.

ORLY? Sure everybody knew Mastin was obvtown here, of course!

I see Kise here setting up mislynches and absolving himself of any guilt. Anyone who looks at Mastin's play as town

should

of been voting him. But he hangs back and plays "Judge". Sounds like he has inside knowledge, *cough*scum*cough*

Vote Kise

Starts his opportunistic kise wagon.

Ok last post for awhile then. I found two strong Mastin defenders:

In other news, Mastin is pretty obv-town. Let's get to lynching Lamont-scum.

All this talk of, "He needs to be vig-killed so the death note is destroyed," doesn't sit well with me..

He's claimed to have been a lot of various PRs & anti-town roles.. Yet hasn't been MK'd. So you have to wonder whether any of his claims ring true if he's still able to play. I believe this is why Kai said that Mastin is obvtown. It's rather cheap, and could suck the fun out of the game if all of us did the same exact thing.. And honestly Mastin, this is the exact reason you get NK'd a lot -- You go so far to confirm your towniness.

It would be a good idea for mod's to never make you mafia, since you're always in the hotseat D1 it seems, lol.

HOWEVER, because scum believe you are an easy D1 lynch, I've started to keep my eye on who's jumping on your wagon and try to make sense of their reason for voting you (if possible). They are likely the best candidates when it comes to making a suspect/scum list.

ORLY? Sure everybody knew Mastin was obvtown here, of course!

I see Kise here

setting up mislynches

and absolving himself of any guilt. Anyone who looks at Mastin's play as town

should

of been voting him. But he hangs back and plays "Judge". Sounds like he has inside knowledge, *cough*scum*cough*

Vote Kise

Scum know who is not scum and it is clear here that you aren't taking the approach that would be expected of a townie. Your approach is that of one that already knows he is not scum; how is this when his behavior is so terrible? You aren't like the rest who said his play sucks but didn't actually vote. You went as far as to suggest

lynching

those that voted for him. That is beyond the pale over the top scummy.

Confirm vote: Kise

no one suggested lynching anyone in those posts. Blatant missreping. Actually, come to think of it, since he declared kise "setting up mislynches" now he also has to argue how everyone on the mastin wagon was pro-town.

Huh. Mastin got shot (presumably by a dayvig) And he was town.
...

vote: Lamont

Not buying this kise wagon. Looks

really

fabricated. Kise's posts show a familiarity with mastin's playstyle. Therefore, being able to judge based on meta alone would be perfectly reasonable. This wagon stinks of opportunistic scum trying to take advantage of the sudden new development (and rock the mob opinion away from analyzing those on the wagon)

@Kise: ... Your reasoning for that being a modkill makes so many fallicious assumptions, its simply staggering. How about you ask the mod to clarify the rules, rather than make assumptions. I believe making claims is fine (and I'm going to go out on a limb here, but considering its a mafia game, lying about said claims is probably okay too), Gelus merely wants to avoid cryptography and joint cooperation (like through night-talks, perhaps) in an attempt to break the game or gain a significant advantage (Like secret messages or signals or what not). I could be wrong. But arguing about it accomplishes nothing when there is a more direct solution (asking the Mod) to figuring out who's right.

Ok, so you actually believe him when he says "oh its just his playstyle and I'm going to lynch scum that vote for him"? How come he's the only one with that attitude

before

he flipped town?

Couldn't the case against Kise be true here? It looks like a clear case of setting up lynches to me. With Mastin play being that crappy, Kise's post is definitely unnatural.

Can you speak to the actual case instead of how it "feels to you like BW-ing"?

He's not the only one with this attitude. You criticized Kairyuu for the same thing. Stop lying.

Based upon post 430 I don't agree with Lamont's case.

Kise thought that Mastin was confirmed due to misunderstanding the rules. So I can understand why he'd look at other players, like those who were on this wagon.

The only thing I don't like about this, is that he hasn't shown anything that he did look at those players. But that was already said in my previous post.

Excellent point. Based on previous play with Kise:

Unvote

I am 99% doubting he would use that to cover his tracks here.

Continues to ignore that people could be using meta, instead takes the opportunity to unvote at the first sign of a different excuse, since he's getting suspected for the vote.

I will say right here and now that Orto has impressed me as a very good player (I have watched him in LAL Modded by Yos2) and besides I really like his avi.

Let us look at this Kise case because I am throughly conflicted. We have two ace players with conflicting views and me swayed by both of them:

Oh snapz... Mastin gets MK'd for going around the rules for real. Kai' knew what he was talking about when he said Mastin was obv-town, but we must start over.

Yes, people, it WAS a MK. Check out the mod-edits at the top of every page; Mastin's name is in green during the vote count because Gelus is signifying that he has HAD Mastin under review.

No day-vig-kills here. Otherwise, we'd have entered night phase, yeah? Now, let's move on.

You are an instigator;

A heckler, at best. You thought you found Mastin out as scum, but look(!), his name is green..

And your case against me is that I knew for sure that Mastin was town? Well, yeah, he tried to loophole his way into proving himself as a townie by claiming a bunch of roles. He wasn't MK'd up until that point, so it was evident to me that if he's not shinigami, cop, scum, tracker, doctor, mason, etc., then he was townie. That's my reason for believing Mastin as pro-town.

Now notice that this is WITHIN THE SAME POST! Would scum actually do this!? And use THAT kiind of crapologic IN THE SAME POST, INTENTIONALLY?? I think not. Oh wait, let me rephrase that: I think not.

Based upon post 430 I don't agree with Lamont's case.
Kise thought that Mastin was confirmed due to misunderstanding the rules. So I can understand why he'd look at other players, like those who were on this wagon.

I still hold this as the proper view.

I think both my case and Orto's case on Kise are

excellent

but Zaze points out a fatal flaw that I cannot overcome with either of our cases. I have meta to further indicate this but I can't bring it up because the game is ongoing.

Actually, I disagreed with your case against him for the already stated reason.

As I pointed out.

However, I pointed three things out which I see as scummy from Kise:
-That he said that those who were voting Mastin are good to look at, but not doing this.

Probably in line with meta.

-The ad hom attacks against you as they are saying that you have been wrong about some players before, and therefore you are wrong now.

Definitely in meta.

-His mod question about roleclaiming after Mastin was killed, and not before he was killed.

This could nullify your argument against my original case but I could see where a player would hold back because of all the kool-aid cases made against me for being sure that the Mod examined Mastin's Jackassery.

100% flip from attacking to defending kise. Suddenly acknowledges meta.

Here is a lurk poster list:

Zwet(*)
Cater(*)
Jebus(*)
Tajo
Budja
Gorrad (to be replaced in 15 hours if he doesn't post)
ABR(*)
Semi
Seraph
Stepho
Llama
Wey

Some of these are hardcore lurking as indicated by a star (*).

IIOA



Then there is a whole bunch of speculation that seems to consider needlessly commplicating things in this game.
He once again suspects kairyuu for thinking that "gunfire" does not appear to be a death note kill method, without supporting why this is scummy.

After that, I can't tell who he suspects anymore, because everyone starts discussing if a death note caused the kill or not, and I get confused on reasoning. For clarity I'm asking him to detail his cases.

I'm of the opinion that:
1. Discussion of this is a waste of time
2. Discussion of this is complete speculation
3. Discussion of this is not helpful in finding scum, despite people attempting to use it as such.
4. I'd like to get back to regular scumhunting, because that whole death note speculation section really confused me.

I'm honestly totally lost because of the speculation. I provided some in show rules, in the hopes that answering people's questions would get them closer to understanding why the speculation was pointless, but it didn't work.
So now, I'm just waiting for people to catch up so that I can start analyzing people again.

I've got to get going soon, so I'll post on myk later.

[magnus_orion]

ebwop: "this" refers to the death note speculation at the end.

[magnus_orion]

4. I'd like to get back to regular scumhunting, because that whole death note speculation section really confused me.

Your win condition is supposed to revolve around this...

*FACEPALM*

My win condition does not involve speculation on how death notes work.
It does involve killing the people who have them.

And no. I do not want "copy and paste" answers. I want new ones. The reason I'll repeat a question is not because I didn't see your response, but because your respose was probably inadequate.

Votecount
mykonian - 4 (LlamaFluff,

cateraction

, Spolium, ortolan)
zwetschenwasser - 3 (populartajo, Albert B. Rampage, Benmage)
magnus_orion - 2 (

ZazieR

, mykonian)
Kise - 1 (Starbuck)
Kairyuu - 1 (Lamont_Cranston)
Lamont_Cranston - 1 (magnus_orion)
ZEEnon - 1 (WeyounsLastClone)
Gorrad - 1 (Kmd4390)
Not voting: zwetschenwasser, Kairyuu, Jebus, Budja, Gorrad,

semioldguy

, Seraphim, Stephoscope, ZEEnon, PhilyEc, Kise

Yeah...he's dead.

With 25 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[magnus_orion]

1) My attack was against a playstyle that produced a day vig that turned out to be a fake so that whole argument is FAIL.

2) Sorry but you had no case against me to vote me that early and so the only answer I had is "RVS"; deal with it.

3) There is nothing wrong with me posting a brief overview of my reads very early in the game.

4) Yes people sucking up to Mastin were acting in an anti-town manner and I said as much consistently. He was guilty of crap play and was hurting the town.

5) My Kise case was very good. It was just wrong. I think the reason you can't see that is because you are blinded by your emotional ego which for some reason just has it in for me.

6) Please get up to speed on Death Notes. They are an important part of this game.

Do I take this as your resposne?
1. Irrelevant. Up until that point you thought it was real. You denied that it was ad hom. The fact that the reason you committed ad hom was false does not absolve you of denying that it was ad hom prior to that discovery. To put it as you did, your defense is FAIL.
2. So you believe you did nothing scummy. So you don't think your ad hom was scummy.
3. I don't have a problem with it. So long as your reads are backed up
4. Prove it. Sounds extremely opinionated.
5. This is ad hom. Prove your case was good.
6. I'm confused. I agree with gorrad that it would be needlessly complicated for them to be anything more than means to commit nks. I think the speculation is baseless conjecture, and we haven't seen any indication that the death notes work one way or the other. In other words, using speculation about death notes for scumtells doesn't work. Its a waste of time and space.

I am currently suspecting Kai, Zee & Budja for posts about notes that are genuinely suspicious.

Go into detail on this.

[magnus_orion]

Obvious is a matter of perspective.
If it really is so obvious, proving it should be easy. So do it.

You've already admitted the case was flawed. It is therefore bad. Not only was it flawed, but it was opportunistic as well. I don't care what you do with your wiki. The fact of the matter is that you were trying to push a flawed case and backed off in a hurry as soon as a different flaw than meta was pointed out. You then went as far as to defend kise, even though you suspected him moments before. This complete change in opinion is extremely suspicious. Why was kise suddenly townie enough for you to defend?

Well, I strongly disagree. Death Notes make scum into Kira -- 'nuff said.

...
Did I say this wasn't the case? Why are you changing the subject? The subject was the speculation about the gameplay mechanics of the death notes and that speculation's usefulness to the game.

Also, on what grounds do you strongly disagree? If you just say what you agree and disagree with but don't back up why, your opinions are worthless.


Also why did you leave my other responses out? Were you not prepared to respond?

Finally, you must still establish that everyone on mastin's wagon was pro-town, as per your coments earlier. Come on, lets see you back your assertions up.

[magnus_orion]

I happen to know kairyuu (we, until recently, when we graduated, went to the same school together) and I also happen to know that I know more about death note than kairyuu. And you know what? I agree with kairyuu. Funny that someone who doesn't know much about the series at all, considering the questions you've asked, would think that they know when someone is ignoring a "central aspect"

I think mastin was shot, with a gun, under no influence of any outside force, other than the one who pulled the trigger.

Death Note kill result will most likely be "died of a heart attack" If no kills or a majority of kills occur where this is not the case, then I might reconsider. But it seems needlessly complex to follow the actual Death note's rules in this game.

I think your cases are all bull. Why are scum more likely to hold this opinion than town? In other words, under what grounds do you legetimize this as more than a difference of opinion? I think you are looking for reasons to attack people

2) Where does this issue of "control of a shooter" come from?

The death note live action movie, most likely. Where the arrangement of one person killing another is actually done using a death note. In the manner I described earlier.

[magnus_orion]

You've already admitted the case was flawed.

No the case was

very

good and therefore not opportunistic.

The fact of the matter is that you were trying to push a flawed case and backed off in a hurry as soon as a different flaw than meta was pointed out.

Yup and I'm proud of it. My case was very good but it wasn't true due to the fact that Kise had a terribly flawed view of the rules; something I had not taken into account but was pointed out to me.

Well, I strongly disagree. Death Notes make scum into Kira -- 'nuff said.

...
Did I say this wasn't the case? Why are you changing the subject? The subject was the speculation about the gameplay mechanics of the death notes and that speculation's usefulness to the game.

No this IS the case. Why are YOU changing the subject. Get with it.

Finally, you must still establish that everyone on mastin's wagon was pro-town, as per your coments earlier.

Nope. Once again you are wrong. Its basic BW analysis. You rarely have all the scum on the bandwagon and with a CRAP PLAYER like Mastin, I prefer to hunt OFF the BW and the fact is there ARE scum off of it. Now, who would be most obviously scum off the wagon... Well,

how about someone that suspected those on his wagon BEFORE HE FLIPPED TOWN.

Lamonts default response to anyone who accuses him of anything is "no you're wrong"
And then continues to not back it up.

Once again he has proceeded to leave things out of my posts and not address them. Why?

Also, a case can be good and still be opportunistic. This one was flawed, and therefore not good, however you created a false dichotomy in your falicious response.

You did change the subject. I said I agreed with gorrad that the death notes are likely simply means to nk, and that they cannot control or anything of the sort, because it would be needlessly commplicated. I also said that it was a poor way to look for scum, since the speculation is baseless. You responded that
1. You disagreed
2. The death note makes scum kira.

two had nothing to do with what I said, and one was unsubstantiated. When asked why you were changing the subject, you replied that I was.
Since your response was unsatisfactory, I will ask again. Why are you changing the subject?

Nope. Once again you are wrong. Its basic BW analysis. You rarely have all the scum on the bandwagon and with a CRAP PLAYER like Mastin, I prefer to hunt OFF the BW and the fact is there ARE scum off of it. Now, who would be most obviously scum off the wagon... Well, how about someone that suspected those on his wagon BEFORE HE FLIPPED TOWN.

How do you know that scum were not on the wagon? Scum are almost always on the wagon. Especially with poor players. Although poor is a matter of opinion.
Furthermore, wouldn't scum be pushing for his lynch, because there was reason to suspect him and he was town?

I have another comment. It has nothing to do with scummyness, but it is a pet peave of mine. TALKING IN ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME DOES NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT!!! IT MAKES IT SEEM AS THOUGH YOU THINK THE PERSON YOU'RE SPEAKING TO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND YOUR POSITION AND SIGNIFICANT WORDS HAVE TO BE HIGHLIGHTED FOR THEM, WHEN IN REALITY THEY DO UNDERSTAND AND ARE DISAGREEING

BECAUSE

THEY UNDERSTAND AND THEY ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE WRONG.

[magnus_orion]

I think mastin was shot, with a gun, under no influence of any outside force, other than the one who pulled the trigger.

Death Note kill result will most likely be "died of a heart attack" If no kills or a majority of kills occur where this is not the case, then I might reconsider. But it seems needlessly complex to follow the actual Death note's rules in this game.

Why are scum more likely to hold this opinion than town? In other words, under what grounds do you legetimize this as more than a difference of opinion?

Simply, we can be almost certain that scum possess a Death Note at this time. If Death Notes give dayvig power then it is likely that scum killed Mastin and would want to hide that ability, hence they would more likely to deny it than town would.

The question is why are they, and now you, denying a central aspect of how Death Notes work?

Because I understand the "central aspects" of the show better than you do and I know what to "deny".

[magnus_orion]

Okay.
Now why are you ignoring large portions of my posts repeatedly, wasting time and space as a result?

[magnus_orion]

The only problem with intentionally not posting is that it can cause the game to stall. I think everyone should expect that a game this size will move quickly.

We should actually all agree to stop posting so people can catch up.

[magnus_orion]

guys, I was hoping we would agree to stp posting on page 39. While I admit that slowing to 3 pages is an improvement over 10, discussion is picking up again, so I'm going to stifle it again.
In order that reads may be more general and we have a larger pool of discussion being made, please stop posting until everyone who is 'catching up' has made a single major post. That way we can get everyone active and on the same page. Normally stopping discussion is anti-town, but in this case its pro-town, because it allows more people into the discussion, for better reads, etc.

This public service announcement has been brought to you by Magnus_Orion. Thank you for your cooperation.

[magnus_orion]

STOP POSTING

FOS: EVERYONE POSTING

For deliberately preventing us from getting reads on players.

Here's the links requested from me:
viewtopic.php?t=10914&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0
viewtopic.php?t=10122&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0
viewtopic.php?t=10115&start=0&postdays= ... highlight=
viewtopic.php?t=10164
viewtopic.php?t=9835&start=0&postdays=0 ... highlight=

(Kai's meta on me comes from offline play.)

This is getting really aggravating.
You 4 people keep going on posting sprees whenever I'm not reading this game. Stop. Now. We are 40 pages in and

not every player has even made a substantial post.

This could result in serious problems down the road for us, because it prevents early reads on players.
Its not hard. Really. You find something else to do. And wait a couple of days (like 2, thats 48 hours), and don't touch this game. Allow everyone to catch up, and then you can post to your heart's desire.

[magnus_orion]

NO!
No "post opinions on the first 40."
We want people caught up, participating with up-to-date information, so we can get accurate reads and bring overall activity of all involved people up.
What part of "stop posting" don't you people understand?
Jeez, if you have something to bring up, put it in a notepad file, save it, and bring it up when everyone is caught up.

[magnus_orion]

NO!
No "post opinions on the first 40."
We want people caught up, participating with up-to-date information, so we can get accurate reads and bring overall activity of all involved people up.
What part of "stop posting" don't you people understand?
Jeez, if you have something to bring up, put it in a notepad file, save it, and bring it up when everyone is caught up.

Its a stalling tactic dude...he was on page 34 or something yesterday...he read 6 pages in a day? Bullshit. Hes stalling for time and being lazy.

Why would he be stalling, pray tell?
And if he is stalling, then that should become clear if you give it the chance to, now won't it? By continuously extended the number of pages he has to read, you are giving him an excuse, if your conjecture is true.
Now cut it out with your excuses, and stop posting.

[magnus_orion]

*growl*

See, if your claim is true, then we CAN put it to the test.
All we have to do is stop posting for a few days. If everyone cannot catch up, THEN we can comment about their lurkyness. ANY QUESTIONS!?

[magnus_orion]

Screw it. If you guys are going to post anyway, Lamont, I demand you tell me why you were ignoring entire sections ofmy posts against you, and why you refuse to acknowledge that you did. You yourself agreed ignoring people was a scumtell, correct?

[magnus_orion]

Alright, guys... if 14 of us make a lynch, we can enter night phase, and those who need to catch up on reading can do all that good stuff when the thread is locked. The best thing we can do right now is decide on lynching top suspects instead of continuing to flood the thread with posts.

Lamont = fun to lynch and full of candy. (and he's been ignoring my posts, and already said ignoring people is a scumtell)

[magnus_orion]

So I'm curious as to why everyone is still questioning Mastin's allegiance.


Also Phily, Gorrad (for the bit he was actually posting) was being rather scummy. No one that I've seen is voting him because KMD is I actually meant to put my vote at the bottom of one of my really long catch up posts and forgot. Thanks for reminding me.

Vote: Gorrad

He pushed for name claims hoping to break the game. Thats it. Scum wouldnt do that, scum wouldnt make such an obvious move. He was later told what that would make killing people off more easy for scum concerning knowing roles and he gave us an 'ooooooooooooh' basically. Gorrad aint scum.

Because he is so experienced he wouldn't make such a mistake. Something must be motivating him; like maybe a Shinigami win condition??

Logical fallacy

[magnus_orion]

Starbuck appears to have a habit of following lamont's lead.

FOS: starbuck

[magnus_orion]

Its just, this is the second time you've voted whom he's voted on the same page, almost directly after. Its unsettling. However, I should note when I make an fos, its very minor suspicion. If I actually suspect you're scum because of something, it'll be an HOS

[magnus_orion]

How about you answer for why you were trying to accuse him with a logical fallacy?

[magnus_orion]

Funny, to demand an explanation prior to voting, when you're being voted for not explaining things.

[magnus_orion]

We're lynching Lamont. That will happen. He's scummy as fuck, and is only suspecting me because I accused him of being scum, called Mastin town, and was right.

Also, note how he completely ignored my entire first catch-up post, when a large chunk of it was directed at him. Scummy McScumscum needs to die, and quickly too.

Add this as well to the above post.

Lamont

, what do you have to say?

I say that they both are buddies in RL, they have decided they want to lynch me and regardless of what I say it will be scummy. They will deny it but it is true.

The post he referenced is such a wall-o-crap "case", I didn't see how anyone could take it seriously.

...
You think that just because we know each other and came to similar conclusions, that we were conspiring against you out of the game?
LOL
Of course I'm going to deny your baseless allegations. Because they aren't true, and you cannot prove otherwise because of that.

Explain why you don't see how anyone could take it seriously, then.
If it is as crappy as you say, surely it cannot be hard to discount to make me stop accusing you for it?

I'll also note that you've acknowledged that you are ignoring the case, and that you've already said doing so would be a scumtell, so, even in your own eyes, you've been acting scummy.

[magnus_orion]

You know, what really pisses me off about being asked to make the case concise was that it already was concise, and then lamont decided to cherry pick points and respond to them, ignoring the whole rest of the case.

[magnus_orion]

What lamont is saying here is that he understood the cause of the confusion, but decided to let it drag out so the town could accomplish less. Just like how he doesn't answer the cases made against him.

[magnus_orion]

Zazie, if you don't mind me asking, what exactly is your point against me?

[magnus_orion]

Unvote Vote Zazier

His spamming posts of fluff is such a waste and a distraction. He's essentially mass defending all scum simply by distracting every other player.

Terrible.

Unvote Vote : Benmage.

I endorse this product/service

unvote, vote: Benmage

Explain how zazie's posts are "fluff", they look like legit questions to me.

[magnus_orion]

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.
They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

Here I state a fact. I thought that Magnus didn't realize that Mastin wouldn't be killed if he actually was a shinigami.

This is not the right answer.

....

Why not?

Votecount
mykonian - 6 (LlamaFluff, cateraction, Spolium, ortolan, Kise, MrBuddyLee)
ZEEnon - 5 (WeyounsLastClone, PhilyEc, Stephoscope, Lamont_Cranston, Starbuck)
Lamont_Cranston - 3 (Kairyuu, Albert B. Rampage, Gorrad)
Benmage - 2 (populartajo, magnus_orion)
Gorrad - 1 (Kmd4390)
magnus_orion - 1 (ZazieR)
Jebus - 1 (zwetschenwasser)z
Starbuck - 1 (mykonian)
Zazier - 1 (Benmage)
Not voting: Jebus, semioldguy, Seraphim, ZEEnon

Relax Yagami. Kira hates to lose, but you don't have to be Kira to want to win a tennis match.

With 25 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[magnus_orion]

I was hoping you weren't going to say that.

"pretends"
You know that zeenon was faking it? Can you offer evidence that suggests conflicted play toward mastin?
Because if you can't, this just looks like another one of your "They disagreed with me on mastin! Must be Scum!" accusations...

Also, I'm curious as to what the case against zee is... since a lot of people seem to think zee is scummy, but I don't see why.

[magnus_orion]

vote: benmage

[magnus_orion]

I've just posted almost the entire case on the last page.

And you can take the "me" out of the Mastin. His playstyle was crappy enough to be objectively so. Practically the entire town has said so with a few minor exceptions... 9.9

We will let Zee defend himself now that he's back.

Rofl.
Logical fallacy


Lamont, you must explain to me why scum are likely to claim that mastin is town. I'm sorta stuck on that point.

[magnus_orion]

Mastin should be vig-killed

if possible due to wifom.
Since that is my position, voting him is pointless.

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.

They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

@Zee:

If Mastin is

not

Shinigami then what would a vig kill do to him? (we all know the answer, "kill him".)

As I said yesterday, I stated a fact.
He

claimed

to be a shinigami. I stated what would happen if his claim was true.

Correct which means you discouraged his vig kill.

Lamont's case may be consistent (although, to me, it feels like the interpretation is being forced), I'm not sure yet. He apparantly has an aggravating habit of not explaining his reasoning.
Which is why I pose this question to the quoted statement:
How so?

[magnus_orion]

I fail to see what's so discouraging about it.

[magnus_orion]

Myk is scummy
I'm down with a myk lynch, but prefer a lamont or benmage lynch.

[magnus_orion]

Meh. I've been claiming support for a myk case for a while now. It looks like he's going to be lynched, and I'm ok with that.

unvote
vote: myk

[magnus_orion]

Err... I think Myk's got 8 votes on him, but I'm nearly positive that the most recent official vote count is wrong, since I don't remember Benmage voting me, so he may have more.

mod, I think the vote count on page 64 is wrong.

[magnus_orion]

Hey myk, do you have a defense other than "my play sucked, sorry"? Because the defense is sorta inadequate, and is in fact, still failing to explain some of the blatant inconsistancies with your opinions on this game, which seem to imply to me that you're being selective in your positions.

[magnus_orion]

I'm not moving my vote until myk explains why he vigged someone he thought was town.

[magnus_orion]

I just skimmed this, and there is little more I can do on the moment, but I read that I had to claim. Well, so be it. I won't nameclaim, because what KMD said, and it is better to take no risks.

I'm a dayvig. I don't have to use a deathnote for that Mastin was my kill.

GRAAAAHHH!!!

[magnus_orion]

How would anybody else be able to answer that, pray tell?

[magnus_orion]

I just skimmed this, and there is little more I can do on the moment, but I read that I had to claim. Well, so be it. I won't nameclaim, because what KMD said, and it is better to take no risks.

I'm a dayvig. I don't have to use a deathnote for that Mastin was my kill.

GRAAAAHHH!!!

[magnus_orion]

More than 1 one-shot

dayvig

!?

[magnus_orion]

Kise gets scum points for reasoning off the nightkill.
KMD gets scum points for trying to fabricate scumminess from meer useless fluff posting.
Kise gets me angry for useless fluff posting.

I'd appreciate it if lamont stopped adding emphasis to words needlessly every other sentence. Its annoying.

[magnus_orion]

The useless fluff posting. "FIRST!" An attempt to be the first to post after something, and then simultaneously brag about it, is a fluff post, which provides no indication of alignment. It is quite common on the internet, but in this game, it just wastes time and space. It therefore makes me angry. The meaning, however, is clear. Attempting to twist the meaning into something else seems to me like you trying to create a BS case, which could mean that you are testing the validity of a case against kise, or "trying to pull a fast one"

[magnus_orion]

...

!#(*HWQDJKL@*(@WDJKHKBWQ......

SECOND!

I have also been thinking that, with knowledge of Myk's role and based on the 2 night kills, that Kira don't need names to kill. I actually would not object to a nameclaim at this point, but maybe we should keep things interesting by holding off on that.

Other thoughts are that the two kills are from the other 2 (possible) Shinigami. It was rumored since D1 that there were 3 total Shinigami from the show who could appear. The chances of 2 Kiras targeting Shinigami and then turning around to be able to use their death notes seems less-likely; not all in 1 night. I would favor the idea that Shinigami are responsible for Cat & Zazie's deaths.

First name that comes to mind is Benmage. He voted Zazie out of dislike for her style, and considered her an annoyance.

Vote: Benmage

Quite early, but Zazie's death hints me to him having a hand in it. As for cat'... Not sure if he had much interaction with anyone. I'll re-read later.

That said, Kise, explain why exactly you think these nightkills came from the shinigami. Considering that another nk came soon after, this reasoning is suspicious.

What do you mean by 2 kiras targeting the shinigami? Do you know who targetted what?

[magnus_orion]

Well it looks like Llama is trying to line up with 2 for 2 with Stepho here. I stand by my assertion that the case against Zee is very strong & that he is not defending as a simple townie would; there are serious logical inconsistencies in his defense...

There are serious gapping holes in your defense, and until you address them, I'm going to consider you suspecting someone to make that person seem less scummy.
I acknowledge that your case holds, however, the fact that it is a case you support gives me pause.

[magnus_orion]

Magnus, I agree, actually. I don't think he'd be so blatant about it. I wanted his reaction more than anything.

Alright, this is a pro-town motive, but I'd prefer to pressure him on the more serious issues I have with his recent posting.

[magnus_orion]

@KMD:
Kise's blatant reasoning off the nightkill, along with his confusing and vague reasoning for suspecting shinigami were responsible for the kills.
To me this suggests that he is implicty saying that neither nightkill was from a scum faction. Since a scum faction is extremely likely, the fact that soon afterwards someone died, suggests that kise may know who targetted what.

[magnus_orion]

Well it looks like Llama is trying to line up with 2 for 2 with Stepho here. I stand by my assertion that the case against Zee is very strong & that he is not defending as a simple townie would; there are serious logical inconsistencies in his defense...

Now, what is important is what they gain by being fundamentally wrong in ideas. Are they using fallacies to defend scum, to get town lynched, only when it benifits them? Once you look at those things, then you are able to make a more clear choice about what is scum wrong and what is town wrong. Zee is town wrong.

Really the case against Zee is that he is

scum

wrong trying to save a juicy death note for the NK & then the lies/distortions/logical fallacies that follow make it even more damning of a case.

You think that without the motive, the case is "damning"? Please clarify.

[magnus_orion]

Merely one possible explanation.
Which is why I ask him to clarify his reasoning.

[magnus_orion]

Well it looks like Llama is trying to line up with 2 for 2 with Stepho here. I stand by my assertion that the case against Zee is very strong & that he is not defending as a simple townie would; there are serious logical inconsistencies in his defense...

Now, what is important is what they gain by being fundamentally wrong in ideas. Are they using fallacies to defend scum, to get town lynched, only when it benifits them? Once you look at those things, then you are able to make a more clear choice about what is scum wrong and what is town wrong. Zee is town wrong.

Really the case against Zee is that he is

scum

wrong trying to save a juicy death note for the NK & then the lies/distortions/logical fallacies that follow make it

even more

damning of a case.

You think that without the motive, the case is "damning"? Please clarify.

Generally speaking, when a case is brought against someone and their defense contains lies & logical fallacies it makes the case against them stronger.

...
Don't side step my questions.
I asked you if, in your opinion, the motive for attempting to preserve a death note not necessary for the case to be, as you put it, "damning".
Its a yes or no question, you understand.

[magnus_orion]

Well it looks like Llama is trying to line up with 2 for 2 with Stepho here. I stand by my assertion that the case against Zee is very strong & that he is not defending as a simple townie would; there are serious logical inconsistencies in his defense...

Now, what is important is what they gain by being fundamentally wrong in ideas. Are they using fallacies to defend scum, to get town lynched, only when it benifits them? Once you look at those things, then you are able to make a more clear choice about what is scum wrong and what is town wrong. Zee is town wrong.

Really the case against Zee is that he is

scum

wrong trying to save a juicy death note for the NK & then the lies/distortions/logical fallacies that follow make it

even more

damning of a case.

You think that without the motive, the case is "damning"? Please clarify.

Generally speaking, when a case is brought against someone and their defense contains lies & logical fallacies it makes the case against them stronger.

...
Don't side step my questions.
I asked you if, in your opinion, the motive for attempting to preserve a death note not necessary for the case to be, as you put it, "damning".
Its a yes or no question, you understand.

Yes but I hold the question to be a hypothetical which doesn't count for much since the reason the shoddy defense was offered was

because

of the case you mention.

I don't care what you hold it as.
From my point of view, the only reason your case even holds together is because you managed to establish a scum motive for those actions. You seem to think that bit is irrelevant. Explain why the defence itself is reason to suspect zee, then.


Mrbuddylee, is there any reason behind that vote?

[magnus_orion]

Magnus why don't you

examine

my case and see for yourself instead of just jumping on a post of mine mid-stream because it strikes your fancy?

He tried to discourage the vig-vote to save the death note for the night kill and then lied about his opinion of Mastin and used terrible logic to defend all of those actions.

Check my case and Zazier's and see for yourself.

Because you don't sufficiently answer my questions or are too vague in your reasoning. We've had this miscomunication problem before because of your stubbornness in never clarifying anything.
You state her defence is bad and "shoddy"
How is that an explanation of why her defense is scummy?
("How" questions are answered with the word "by". "Why" questions are answered with the word "because".)

[magnus_orion]

Large_Constellation pointed to the right post for the wrong reasons in 2022. The question is not why he was trying to pin things on the shinigami in particular, the question is why Kise engaged in mass speculation in the first place. The whole "FIRST!" thing screams scum needlessly outing themselves, and I'm going to wait for Kise's explanation.

Well, I think its all important.
Explain how you think the whole "FIRST!" thing is scum needlessly outing themselves, though?

[magnus_orion]

@lamont:
?
I want to what?
I don't care about looking "kewl". I care about analyzing your responses to my questions. You can stop with your paranoid "hidden motive" garbage.
The fact of the matter is that words have multiple meanings, or vague meanings that cover large grey areas. Therefore, how you phrase something may not come off exactly as you desire the interpretation to be. Hence asking for clarification.

However, even if you were correct, and that was my motive, you are not excused from answering my questions.

[magnus_orion]

And I've noticed a pattern where this happens:
Lamont: Blah blah blah
Magnus: Explain
Lamont: Blah

blah

blah
Magnus: That doesn't explain anything
Lamont: Blah

blah

blah
Magnus: You need to answer my call for clarification
Lamont: Blah

blah

blah
Magnus: Why are you hiding things?
Lamont: I've answered you several times though!

Votecount
Stephoscope - 2 (LlamaFluff, Kmd4390)
Kise - 1 (MrBuddyLee)
Starbuck - 1 (Vi)
Not voting: ortolan, zwetschenwasser, Kairyuu, mykonian, Benmage, magnus_orion, populartajo, Gorrad, Skruffs, Starbuck, Kise, Seraphim, Stephoscope, ZEEnon, ThAdmiral, WeyounsLastClone, Lamont_Cranston

Yes, I am near.

With 24 alive, it's 11 to lynch.

[magnus_orion]

However, even if you were correct, and that was my motive, you are not excused from answering my questions.

Yes I am excused if that is your motive. In fact if you keep it up I'm just going to tell you where to find the info and tell you to look it up yourself.

In addition to answering the question that I've already asked you in some manner or form, answer why someone having an alterior motive for asking a question excuses you from answering the question.

[magnus_orion]

You don't understand what the word "why" means do you?
Most of thses seem like standard mistakes with no bearing on alignment that you are blowing way out of proportion. Which is why I am forced repeat the question:
WHY does these defenses specificly make zeenon scummy?
Why is answered with the question "because"
Why cannot be answered with examples. Finding examples where the defense was bad does not explain why the poor defense is scummy. This is what I'm asking.
A question that could be answered with examples is a "what" "where" or "when" question.
Before you state your reply to this, please acknowledge you understand what I am saying, and why I feel your response is inadequate. If you feel your response was adequate, then we should discuss the wording of my question, and the way in which the response fits the question.

[magnus_orion]

Ebwop: word "because" not question "because"

[magnus_orion]

Why does any of the evidence cited in post 2052 implicate zeenon as scum?

[magnus_orion]

@Lamont: You have failed to answer my question. Why do I not ask another question? Because I want an answer to THIS question. Stop trying to change the subject.

How does it suggests I know who targeted who?

Because you suggest that scum didn't make a nk and then another kill shows up.

My initial reaction to the aftermath of Night 1, tis all.

No, I mean I didn't understand what your post said. It didn't make sense.

Here I am saying that with it being 2 NKs (at the time of my post), how would it be possible for [two] Kira to luckily target Shinigami AND be able to use the death notes during the same night phase(?).

What do you mean when you say "targetted"?

[magnus_orion]

Semioldguy, you're dead.

[magnus_orion]

O my! So if we are to believe all this, we should try to see if there is some way we can engineer a death note for Myk on the 7th day in exchange for his role peeks...

"Lets get the neutral role a killing power so that he will help us out with information we have no way of knowing is accurate!"

Vote: lamont

Me thinks you want to get him a death note so you can kill him and take it, perhaps?
I mean why else would you want help a role that isn't alligned with the town, and is in fact, if his win condition is what he says it is, aligned against the town, for his information, which may or may not be accurate?

[magnus_orion]

Ebwop:
Actually, its more of "Lets get the anti-town role a killing power", now that I think about it.

[magnus_orion]

O my! So if we are to believe all this, we should try to see if there is some way we can engineer a death note for Myk on the 7th day in exchange for his role peeks...

"Lets get the neutral role a killing power so that he will help us out with information we have no way of knowing is accurate!"

Vote: lamont

Me thinks you want to get him a death note so you can kill him and take it, perhaps?
I mean why else would you want help a role that isn't alligned with the town, and is in fact, if his win condition is what he says it is, aligned against the town, for his information, which may or may not be accurate?

This is so sad. Anyone who takes the time to look at the several posts I make on the topic can see the evolution of my thought and as it turns out this is a null-issue and a waste of time. I'm over it and everyone else should be as well.

Nope. Don't see it.
I see you saying that the town should try to help the win condition of someone who's claimed win condition directly conflicts with that of the towns. When this is pointed out, you are upset, and retract it, as if you didn't already realize this to begin with, which, if it was the case, suggests you aren't town. If you did realize it, it suggests you aren't town as well. Its honestly a no win situation for you. It was scummy no matter how you look at it.

[magnus_orion]

Of course, he also has every reason to openly screw with us, because scum/shinigami can give him a death note any night phase.

[magnus_orion]

@gorrad: This was in Myk's death note:

At night, you may anonymously give away your Death Note to any player. You may also choose to destroy it.

With a Death Note, you may kill once per night. You may choose whether to have the player die immediately or after a certain amount of posts, and in what way. If no specifications are given, the kill defaults to immediate and death of a heart attack.

If a human obtains a Death Note and he already has one, he must immediately give it away to a player of his choice.

The same rule applies to Shinigami; however, Shinigami wait until the end of the night to give it away.

[magnus_orion]

It is implied in the last line.

[magnus_orion]

Oh.
I suppose its possible they can't. I'd find that unnatural that shinigami can but scum can't though.

@magnus: Do you think that the scum faction was given multiple death notes? If so, how many, and which kills do you think came from them? If not, do you think they have a factional kill that would make them willing to give up their death note? Following from that, if you think that they have a factional kill, then do you think one of the three kills was this factional kill? Which one? If you don't think that they have a factional kill, then why would they give away their death note, the only source of killing power they have, just to give it to myko?

I don't know if they have multiple death notes. I think that we don't have enough info to come to a conclusion in regards to that.
I'd guess they have at least one death note, not a factional kill.
Assuming they have only one death note, then its possible they could acquire another one. Giving it to myko would bribe him to screw with us, or the potential of such a bribe would be incentive for him to screw with us. They could get it back by killing him. He could openly ask for them to give him the death note in thread, and there'd be nothing we could do about it.

[magnus_orion]

myko can communicate with scum through the thread. If there are more ways for myko to communicate with scum, then that makes this scenario all the more likely.
The point I'm trying to make is that there is possibly more than one way for myko to gain a death note, and that he's not necessarily a trustworthy source of information because of that.

[magnus_orion]

Actually, Benmage's first question from post 2138 is an excellent one.
There's no reason for lamont to tell someone that suspects him that he thinks they're town, at least, unless he's trying to pull the "I think you're town so you should think I'm town" bull that newbscum try to do.

I'm going to look over US election mafia to consider ortolan's points.

[magnus_orion]

Ortolan, vi went after you day 1 in US Election mafia, and due to a mechanic involved in US election mafia, wasn't scum on day 1, nor did vi know that vi was going to become scum due to that mechanic.

[magnus_orion]

Read more closely. At night OR after a certain amount of posts. Player's choice. Someone obviously chose to kill Zazie at night. Cateraction may have been killed by a Note too considering the obscure cause of death. So I'd assume we have at least two more Notes to destroy.

Something here just sparked my interest.
Cateraction was attacked by a lion.
You say that Cateraction "may" have been killed with a death note.
KMD, could you please clarify: do you believe that there exists a possible scenario where Cateraction was not killed with a death note?

[magnus_orion]

Considering all the rules we have from the notebook, its not logical to assume that those posting at the time have anything to do with the deaths.
What I'm hung up on is why you think that a kira would have to target a shinigami to get their notebook and use it, rather than merely already have one, and be able to simply use it. According to the rules, "kira" is any human being with a notebook who is able to use it.
Is there anything at all to make you speculate that this "kira targeting shinigami" is actually the case?
I mean, I can't even begin to understand where the idea came from.

[magnus_orion]

She's a HUGE part of the movies.

Screw that. She's the MAIN CHARACTER in the book.

[magnus_orion]

Notebook? Lulz

@mag - Same question can be posed to you; Is there anything concrete to support the idea that a Kira

begins

the game with a death note?

So far, there's no evidence of vigilantes. The rules say that if a killer/Kira kills a player possessing a death note, they'll take it

from that point forward

. Again, what gives the impression that a Kira started off on Day 1 with a death note?

No, but evidence does suggest it, which is more than you've got. What I'm asking is where your bizarre theory came from.
There is evidence of vigs. Day 1 someone died, in the day phase, before any night.
The death note rules clearly state the kill must be submitted at night.
Explain how kira kills to obtain a death note without a death note.

[magnus_orion]

going off the discription of the notebook, mixed with the daykill flavor yesterday, I'm going to say semioldguy was a test, to see exactly how the posting rule worked, from a notebook. If it was a dayvig, I'd expect the flavor to be the same as yesterdays.

[magnus_orion]

So the impression is that myk lied about being the one who killed Mastin?
[...]
So again, we'd have to believe a Kira killed Mastin and not myk? Or do you know for certain that a day-vigilante was the one who killed Mastin, because that's what it is sounding like more & more?

To the first, Yes.
...
To the second, no. A presumably a day-vig, most likely pro-town, killed mastin.
To the third, I do not know, however, I'd say the likelyhood mastin was killed by a day-vig is around 90%

[magnus_orion]

I'd say the likelyhood mastin was killed by a day-vig is around 90%

Ehhh.. help me to understand the confidence in this belief, por favor.

Alright, lets go through what we know.
1. The death note can only submit kills at night.
2. There was no night phase prior to mastin's death.
3. From 1 and 2 we can deduce that mastin was not killed by a death note.
4. Shinigami's kill method involves using a death note, as per flavor and rules, shinigami killing without a death note seems improbable, especially because they cannot be killed
5. Scum kill using death notes and can acquire more death notes
6. I find it unlikely that in addition to the probability of having multiple night kills, scum can also submit day kills.

Since some of these are improbable, but not impossible, it is about 90% likely mastin was day-vigged.

Now, lets speak on a practical level.
Mastin was certainly angering several players, and there existed a reasonable chance to mislynch him. On the other hand, several other players showed a much greater level pro-town-ness, and would be much higher priority targets from a scum-day-kill.

Now, do you plan on telling me what led you to come up with your theory on how nightkills work?

[magnus_orion]

Vi, I should probably let you know that kise is quickly rising to my top suspect during this conversation. The speculation is merely to get him to continue to speak.
That said, if he fails to provide a reasonable answer to my last question, I'm going to assume he came to the conclusion based on inside information and that he's scum or a shinigami.

[magnus_orion]

Kmd, you got an answer to my question yet?

[magnus_orion]

unvote
vote: kise

@kise: Are you suggesting we not lynch shinigami in that post, or what?
Also, please answer my question before about the speculation.

[magnus_orion]

Er, I see the quote from kise as saying that we shouldn't lynch shinigami because there is a chance that scum would pick up the notebook by being on the wagon. Which strikes me as really scummy.
Or am I missing something?

[magnus_orion]

Was the post from kise before or after mastin died?

[magnus_orion]

It appears this quote was before mastin died.
Kairyuu, I don't see how your theory holds up in light of that.

[magnus_orion]

I find it suspicious

hilarious

that I'm trying to stop the lynch of someone I am reasonably sure is scum of some sort. Definitely liking this mechanic.

fixed.
scum potentially carry DN.
If they do not yet have one they could gain one. If every potential anti-town has a death note, then if one acquires an additional DN, they are forced to give it to a townie, whom promptly destroys it.

Hos: kairyuu

You're better than this.

[magnus_orion]

It would be better to get the notes, sure, but that doesn't mean we ignore scum. Remember, scum can exchange death notes to try and hide them amongst each other, so what applies one day may not apply the next. It would be much more difficult to narrow down which scum have the death note, than who are the scum.
We need to get rid of their hiding locations.

[magnus_orion]

Alright, I can accept that.

[magnus_orion]

@gorrad: when I saw the flip, I thought so as well, but cateraction apparently thought mastin was town. There is no indication if this sentiment changed.

FOS: Lamont

Stop with the useless posts. They resemble buddying

@Kise: I fail to see how that led you to that conclusion. Also, I am unsatisfied with your excuse. It sounds like you're just being inconsistant.
Claim please.

[magnus_orion]

@Vi: Shinigami is the plural of shinigami. Its one of those words. Like fish.

[magnus_orion]

It took starbuck 7 minutes to respond to benmage about simulposting, but 40 minutes for the vote post?
Yeah, right.
Starbuck is lying. Why?

HOS: Starbuck

I think that kise was daykilled, on account of him being the leading wagon.

[magnus_orion]

Starbuck's excuse makes sense, and frankly, it was an akward thing to lie about.

[magnus_orion]

MBL, it has been pointed out that you are deliberately lurking in this game. Your quick appearance with only a few votes also proves this.

Could you please explain why?

Actually, it doesn't. Nice try though.
Still, MBL, and a few others, need to post more.

[magnus_orion]

Didn't you say it was "proven"

because

he popped in a little while ago? Now its him popping in after its been "proven"?

[magnus_orion]

I said "also proves this".

Pssst, "I'm trying to scum hunt" kthx.

What a coinicidence. That's exactly what I was doing when I made the post.

MBL's post is reinforcing my belief that lamont has been scum buddying to every person who puts a vote on him.

[magnus_orion]

Lamont, you taking credit for me posting more is like the paperboy taking credit for the sunrise. You don't get bonus points for being in the vicinity.

You were on two wagons on two days for Kise and one for Mastin, if I recall correctly.

What? You can't possibly counting Mastin here!? Absurd!

You discouraged votes for the Shinigami.

Yes but I backed up why and PROVED that the vast majority of his behavior was a null tell and then when presented with the evidence (which I asked for repeatedly) I DID vote him (in fact I hammered him) but not because he was a Shinigami but because I believed he had a death note.

You found the neutral Phily to be protown.

So what and we don't know that he was neutral.

And now you're trying to run up yet another citizen in yours truly. You should understand that from my perspective, you being

0-for-5

with your suspicions thus far is a sign of either a terrible citizen or pretty likely scum.

The feeling is mututal and I'm only 0-1.

You do realize you haven't proven a damn thing this entire game, right? Stop using that word. It is especially bad when you put it in ALL CAPS, because its simply not true, and it merely looks like you're trying to reinforce it so we don't question it.

I'd love to see how you figure that you can simply point to legitimate facts and say, "but that doesn't count!"

Vote: Lamont

[magnus_orion]

Yes it has. He’s active elsewhere on the site, and barely contributing here. Half his posts are baseless votes.

I didn't want to explain why it wasn't proof before, but now I can, because MBL responded to Lamont's allegations.
Its not proof because we have no knowledge as to whether MBL is actively reading and up to date with this game or not. It is entirely possible he fell behind. Thus I have now proven that what Lamont demonstrated was not proof of his allegation. His allegation, "lurking" was eventually proven true: MBL proved he was lurkering when he admitted to doing so, but Lamont did not prove it.

[magnus_orion]

Yes it has. He’s active elsewhere on the site, and barely contributing here. Half his posts are baseless votes.

I didn't want to explain why it wasn't proof before, but now I can, because MBL responded to Lamont's allegations.
Its not proof because we have no knowledge as to whether MBL is actively reading and up to date with this game or not. It is entirely possible he fell behind. Thus I have now proven that what Lamont demonstrated was not proof of his allegation. His allegation, "lurking" was eventually proven true: MBL proved he was lurkering when he admitted to doing so, but Lamont did not prove it.

And you feel the need to speak for him, why??

I didn't speak for him at all. Were you paying attention to the first sentence of that post?
I deliberately maintained my silence as to why your allegations weren't proof until after MBL responded to you.

[magnus_orion]

Which lacked your statement. NOwhere di he say he fell behind and you had to bring that up why??

The fact is the evidence supports that he did NOT fall behind anyway.

To explain to benmage why you failed to establish proof of your theory.
Yes I agree to your second statement. Thanks to MBL, your accusation is actually concrete.
However, I am forced to agree being nked early, consistantly, is rather annoying. Recently, I've been trying to tone my playstyle down so I don't get killed as frequently. Its perfectly understable why MBL would do something like this.

[magnus_orion]

LAL is a dumb idea. Its more useful to scum than town. In fact, most people I've seen call for LAL have been scum...

Oh, and I disagree that MBL has lied.

[magnus_orion]

Lamont what was your intial reason for suspecting MBL?
Its because he was lurking correct? Or is there some other reason?

[magnus_orion]

It is because he was shown to be

delberately

lurking. Then I saw that I had his predecessor (Budja) down with anti-town views. Following that, his defense I found to be a lie as we can clearly see from his play in his other game. Finally he throws in the "I replaced in late" bit; notice he didn't say that first, he said it AFTER he first said he was lurking because he wanted to "hide from scum".

Although I definitely wasn't certain when it was first brought up, it looks like we have caught scum now.

Yeah I disagree with all of this. You're forcing the interpretation.
And since I don't want anyone strung up because of a bullshit case:
He was deliberately lurking
"anti-town views"? Does this mean he disagreed with you or that he said something which went against the best interests of the town. Its hard to tell with you, as you seem to be annoyingly over-assertive that you are always acting in the town's best interest.
Your defense point fails. While he pointed to that game for a town meta, he did not claim that that game was a demonstration of how he played as pro-town in all his games. Lama clearly seems to think that not posting is a possible pro-town MBL playstyle, citing off-site games. It should be noted that Lama was apparently scum in that game, scum tend to pay more attention to playstyle of other players so they can predict how they will behave.
The "I replaced in" bit was true, and having multiple reasons for lurking doesn't mean they are mutually exclusive.

Your case is wrong, opportunistic, and scummy. You are clearly trying to take advantage of the fact that MBL was lurking. Which is why I have to ask this very important question: Why haven't you pressured the other lurkers? Actually, benmage, who first posted against MBL, and has since faded into the background, should answer this question too.

[magnus_orion]

Although I definitely wasn't certain when it was first brought up, it looks like we have caught scum now.

This is a hard game to keep up with if you have a busy real life. I've been having the same issue trying to keep up when I go to bed and wake up to 5 or 6 pages overnight.

MBL said he replaced in at page 42. I know when I replace into a game, the first thing I do before posting is catch up. Are you really trying to lynch the guy for getting all of his background info first?

ORLY? Then why didn't he say that first thing? Why did he make up the excuse that he wanted to "hide from scum"? Why was he posting up a strom in the other game and nothing of substance here?

There is an asnwer to these questions and its not that

I'm

scum.

Why do they have to be mutually exclusive of one another?

Oh and nothing is making sense because you are picking your fights and ignoring everything that is inconvient for you.

[magnus_orion]

He gave two legit reasons, neither excluded the other as a possibility, meaning they could both be true, at the same time. I don't see why this is incomprehensible to you...

[magnus_orion]

Ebwop: I'd like to call your bluff: Find me evidence that contradicts mbl's statements. Show me where it absolutely doesn't match up.

Votecount
Lamont -4 (Kairyuu, WeyounsLastClone, MrBuddyLee, magnus_orion)
MrBuddyLee -3 (Benmage, Lamont_Cranston, Stephoscope)
Starbuck -1 (Vi)
Stephoscope -1 (Llamafluff)
Not voting: ortolan, zwetschenwasser, mykonian, populartajo, Gorrad, Skruffs, Starbuck, Kmd4390, Seraphim, ZEEnon, ThAdmiral,

I'll make you trust me.

With 20 alive, it's 11 to lynch.

[magnus_orion]

One more point:

This game is 94 pages on Day Two primarily because you like to hear yourself talk, Lamont. You're saying much without saying anything of substance, and even when the truth is pointed out to you, you ignore it and spew propaganda. If you're a townie, that's why you're 0-for-5 thus far with your suspicions. Or, more likely, you're a Servant of Kira, lording over your domain with a set of arbitrary rules that need only make sense to you.

I'm 0-1 because obviously Mastin didn't count & you are all over the map on your defense with nothing making sense when compared with the rest. But you can try and distract from all that by saying its my fault you "

were hiding from scum

opps fell behind".

Let's do some math:
0/5 = 0
0/1 = 0
I don't care if it counts or not, the fact of the matter is that you've been on a solid wrong streak for who's scum.
And as long as you seem to agree on that point, I don't see what the issue is.

[magnus_orion]

Ebwop: I'd like to call your bluff: Find me evidence that contradicts mbl's statements. Show me where it absolutely doesn't match up.

There you go again. ITS ALL OUT IN THE OPEN. Read my posts.

There you go again, failling to bring forward evidence, that, if real, would be extremely pro-town.
I'm asking for quotes that show a clear contradiction.
Everything you've brought forward doesn't contradict at all.

What is incomprehensible to you is how they are both false for obvious reasons:

1) Hiding from scum = false because if "years of experience" had taught him that he would of done it in his other game

2) Fell Behind = false because he could of said so first thing but he didn't and if he had been making attempts to catch up he could of posted regularly and said so like the other players that have replaced in and GOSH WOW look! He's here and posting like a champ all of a sudden.

NONE OF IT MAKES SENSE.

Fine, be gullable. This all would of went away and I would of backed down if he had just answered properly instead of this convoluted crap that makes no sense

No, you see, this is what we call "circumstantial evidence"
Its only circumstantial, it doesn't definitively prove your points at all. Its based on your subjective interpretation.

You're acting like a conspiracy theorist again. "OMG It is so obvious that they faked the apollo landing! Wake up sheeple!" And you're just wrong.

[magnus_orion]

LOL. I'm wrong. No you're just right. You are getting what you want which is arguing with my points.

The problem is you're on the wrong side of the issue.

Fact:

He deliberately lurked in this game

. This is proven by his posting in the other game. Trying to say otherwise is REACHING -- that's you.

Fact:

He lied about his playstyle choice

. This is proven by his play in the other game. Once again REACHING to say otherwise.

Fact:

He didn't really fall behind

. This is proven by him not saying so IMMEDIATELY when questioned and not posting the usually expected "I'm catching up" posts regularly throughout the game. Instead he throws it in as an after thought. Again you REACH to try and support him.

Fact:

Budja (whom he replaced) is on record saying we shouldn't lynch a Shinigami

. Right out in the open.

STOP REACHING JUST BECAUSE YOU WANT TO ARGUE WITH ME ITS ANTI-TOWN.

Whose reaching? I have evidence to support my claims, they aren't baseless.
I don't "just want to argue with you"
Where did you get that idea?

The first I never disputed. It is therefore impossible to accuse me of reaching on it. I did say that what you provided did not prove he was lurking, but what he said did.

The second has evidence to the contray. Or are you calling lama a liar as well? Is lama MBL's scum partner? How is accepting perfectly legit evidence and considering it in drawing conclusions "reaching"?

The third is not proven by that in any way, shape, or form. It is merely your conjecture. Your so called "evidence" is a joke and insisting people who say otherwise are reaching in ALL CAPS doesn't make the point any stronger, but it makes you look more desperate.

The fourth hasn't really been argued.

[magnus_orion]

You don't want to lynch scum in the first couple of days because it means you might die?

Hi, strawman

FOS: kmd.

[magnus_orion]

You don't want to lynch scum in the first couple of days because it means you might die?

Hi, strawman

FOS: kmd.

Strawman? Not being vocal about your suspicions is retarded if the only reason for it is fearing your death. Do you disagree?

That's fine, last time I checked, though, mbl was voicing his suspicions, just not

why

.

[magnus_orion]

So how is that the same as opposing the lynch of scum then?

[magnus_orion]

This is proven by him not saying so IMMEDIATELY when questioned and not posting the usually expected "I'm catching up" posts regularly throughout the game. Instead he throws it in as an after thought.

Tis not difinitve proof, is it?

Ok, I've said that because of the mechanics of how that game worked, it might of been a RL issue that caused the similar behavior. I have asked for a link to meta from MLB that would further prove it and I will further ask now that he explain HOW & WHY he didn't follow his "years of experience" in the other game but decided to here? Untill I see these two things, I'm going with the facts we have infront of us.

No, you are doing it wrong. The accuser needs to prove his case, the defense demonstrates why the accuser's proof is either wrong or insufficient. You need to establish your accusation, not have other people defend against your baseless attacks.

Lamont is trying to push a case full of holes on MBL. Combined with his earlier buddying to people who suspected him, I'm pretty convinced Lamont is scum.

@ benmage: Wait, you think we're both townies, but if one of us flips town, you think the other is scum? WTF?

[magnus_orion]

HOS: benmage

"Let's lynch all the lurkers" doesn't sit well with me.
Lurking isn't a scumtell. Only active lurking is.

[magnus_orion]

It's not opposing it. It's just making it less likely to happen.

So are we to understand that when you say this:

You don't want to lynch scum in the first couple of days because it means you might die?

You are not accusing him that "[he doesn't] want to lynch scum", as you said, but rather, that he is making "[the lynch of scum] less likely to happen" early on?

It may not seem like much, but it is a big difference, one suggests motivation against the town, the other suggests merely that he wants to wait to try and lynch scum once he has more information.
This is why your attack was a strawman. There was no reason to suppose MBL didn't want to lynch scum.

Votecount
Lamont -6 (Kairyuu, WeyounsLastClone, MrBuddyLee, magnus_orion, Starbuck, Gorrad)
MrBuddyLee -3 (Benmage, Lamont_Cranston, Stephoscope)
Starbuck -1 (Vi)
Stephoscope -1 (Llamafluff)
Not voting: ortolan, zwetschenwasser, mykonian, populartajo, Skruffs, Kmd4390, Seraphim, ZEEnon, ThAdmiral,

And when you've told me everything I need to know, I'll kill you.

With 20 alive, it's 11 to lynch.

[magnus_orion]

That doesn't make any sense though.
You think we're both town, but if one is town, then the other is scum.
These points directly contradict one another, how can you hold both of them at once?

[magnus_orion]

Ebwop: oh wait, I read that wrong. Ok nevermind, ignore the above post.

[magnus_orion]

Ah, stephoscope, do you mind explaining your suspicions on MBL for us?

[magnus_orion]

Ah, stephoscope, do you mind explaining your suspicions on MBL for us?

I think Lamont is town, and I don't like MrBuddyLee's attacks on him, nor do i like his beligerence. MBL should go.

Care to elaborate? Usually I like more than an a single sentence and a statement when I ask someone to justify a vote. As it stands now, you are voting MBL because you do not like him. Usually I expect something more in-depth than distaste. Perhaps something pertaining to alignments?
It is also of note that MBL was not noticibly beligerent until after you voted him.

[magnus_orion]

they know now. But they knew me under my rolename.

Knew you under your rolename? Does that mean they knew of your existance in this game? But then why would you know that? Either you were told they knew of your rolename, or you are able to talk to scum. I don't see how this statement makes sense otherwise.
In which case, we definitely shouldn't trust you and anything you say is potentially fed from the scum.

[magnus_orion]

@Starbuck: Who do you think is scum?

[magnus_orion]

And you wouldn't mind a zwet policy lynch, why?

[magnus_orion]

And you wouldn't mind a zwet policy lynch, why?

Experiences with him in other games. It really seems like he goes out of the way to make things even harder on everyone else when it should be cut and dry. If you want an example, the Twilight Mini should do.

I don't need an example. He once claimed scum and then declared based off of reactions that two vanillas were scum and that I was town. I was the mafia godfather in that game.
However policy lynches are not pro-town. To lynch someone based on policy means that you aren't considering if they are scum or not. Which means that it is done without the town's win con as the primary goal.

[magnus_orion]

And you wouldn't mind a zwet policy lynch, why?

Experiences with him in other games. It really seems like he goes out of the way to make things even harder on everyone else when it should be cut and dry. If you want an example, the Twilight Mini should do.

I don't need an example. He once claimed scum and then declared based off of reactions that two vanillas were scum and that I was town. I was the mafia godfather in that game.
However policy lynches are not pro-town. To lynch someone based on policy means that you aren't considering if they are scum or not. Which means that it is done without the town's win con as the primary goal.

He always seems to do more harm than good no matter what side he's aligned with, was all I was trying to say.

No, you said, quite clearly, you wouldn't mind policy lynching him, which is several steps above merely commenting on his play.

[magnus_orion]

@myko: Why? Do you have reason to believe he does not hold a death note? If not, I can see no reason why you would not be on the wagon in the hopes of getting one.

yes, based on general play, I have very little problems with Lamont. The wagon seems to be on small things. For example, the 0/5 argument simply sucks. You only caught a survivor type role (me), so that would make everyone who actually took a stance scum. Everyone who uses that argument is therefor using bad logic, and shows that they actually havent given a lot of opinions.

so yes, I think he is not scum. I'm actually quite convinced.

Yet you are willing to call on a policy lynch for zwet over absolutely nothing in this game that indicates alignments

[magnus_orion]

Hey, I'm dead anyway.

so can I propose a zwet policy lynch?

I wouldn't mind that.

I twisted this?
How?

Votecount
Lamont -7 (Kairyuu, MrBuddyLee, magnus_orion, Starbuck, Gorrad, populartajo)
MrBuddyLee -3 (Benmage, Lamont_Cranston, Stephoscope)
Stephoscope -2 (Llamafluff, Kmd4390)
Starbuck -1 (Vi)
Skruffs -1 (WeyounsLastClone)
MyBuddyLee -1 (mykonian)
Not voting: ortolan, zwetschenwasser, Skruffs, Seraphim, ZEEnon, ThAdmiral,

You told my father I'm under suspicion?

With 20 alive, it's 11 to lynch.

[magnus_orion]

Hey, I'm dead anyway.

so can I propose a zwet policy lynch?

I wouldn't mind that.

I twisted this?
How?

o, what a nice scumslip!

or was it a mistake?

I honestly just don't care for zwet at all. It has nothing at all to do with game play.

And I don't care for policy lynches at all. It has everything to do with game play. I find them very scummy. Particularly when you don't really suspect the person of being scum.

[magnus_orion]

Does anyone more familiar with the anime than I am have any thoughts on whether or not scum would know who the Shinigami are? We can't let Llama get away with it if she just blew her cover.

Why would scum know who the Shinigami are??

they know now. But they knew me under my rolename.

So shin-kira have contact according to shin, when flavor suggests this is true as well, I dont think he is lying.

Also im not a she. Why do people always think im a she? Its a dude lion people.

I may not be entirely done with my case on you, but you can still respond to what is up now instead of trying to hide from it.

I'm not trying to hide from anything. I said I would respond when you're all done, and that is still what I intend to do. But it should already be clear where your existing case falls apart. If I had been scum, and knew mykonian's "role" only, I would not have known to "defend" him as you claim I did.

You have twisted what mykonian said (re: knowing role not player) and also what I said ("random point"?!). And it's very possible you gave away scum knowledge. IGMEOY.

As for why people think you're a she, it's probably the pink baby carriage.

Appealling to the majority with your scumtells as opposed to asking questions? Scummy. Your primary motivation is very clearly the justification of calling someone scummy, not to find out if someone is actually scum or not.

HOS: Stephoscope.

I'll Iso him now, size up my opinion of him.

[magnus_orion]

unvote, vote: stephoscope

He's very clearly avoiding making definitive statements and being vague on reads and opinions. His reasons for making votes are usually shallow and adding to bandwagons.
@Stephoscope: Why do you think I'm town? (Or did, if you no longer do.) You never actually responded to Zazie when she asked you, you sorta side stepped the question, said you didn't find anything suspicious from me. That doesn't normaly jump to townie, it usually stays at null.

[magnus_orion]

I was simulposted.

Appealling to the majority with your scumtells as opposed to asking questions? Scummy. Your primary motivation is very clearly the justification of calling someone scummy, not to find out if someone is actually scum or not.

HOS: Stephoscope.

I'll Iso him now, size up my opinion of him.

Actually, you'll notice that I appealed to everyone else to give their opinions on whether it should have been assumed that the scum and the Shinigami would have been in contact. No one has answered me yet. If LlamaFluff is scum, I don't expect any of his scum buddies to step forward and call him scummy, so if no other players do at all, my suspicions will be lessened.

I cannot answer the question of who's scummier, MBL or Llama, until I have more information re: the above, but you'll notice my vote has stayed on MBL for now.

Why would your suspicions be lessened if that happens? It sounds like they should be increased.
Why not use the information from the 99 page thread? Is it not enough?

[magnus_orion]

@Steph - one thing you need to realize is that im always town. I think ive been lynched twice in about 25 games. You also are applying something along the lines of "too townie" here. I am scum since no one is calling me scum, it must means my partners are calling me town. See the logic fail there? Should I just call you scum some more since you wagon isnt growing, it means that your buddies are still trying to get someone else lynched instead.

@kmd - You are calling both Steph and MBL scum IIRC, who is scummier and why?

Unvote; Vote: LlamaFluff

See, this asking for an explanation bit shouldn't be necessary, but, care to explain?

[magnus_orion]

Huh, that was a mispost.

Sorry, I meant I wanted an explanation for zwet's vote, and accidently quoted the wrong post.

@lamont: I don't think that's necessary. I don't know about others, but I don't question v/la, unless I have a meta reason to, or its unnaturally frequent. If others feel its necessary for you to prove it, then go ahead, but I don't feel that you need to go that far. Get well soon.

[magnus_orion]

@Steph - one thing you need to realize is that im always town. I think ive been lynched twice in about 25 games.

I have no idea how you thought this statement would help your cause. If you were town in your 25 first games here, that would not change your chances of being scum now. And I'd say anyone who's been lynched only twice in 25 games must be excellent at playing as scum.

This is my essential logic.

That's you logic for voting? I seem to think something less than logical drifted into your thought process.
It appears you voted him because he plays well as scum. How does that affect his alignment in this game?

[magnus_orion]

urgh. Bad quotes.

[magnus_orion]

You seem to be reading into something that isn't there at all.

Currently, I'm happy with my vote on L_C. I've been reading along but there has really been nothing that has made me want to change my vote. So why do I need to talk about him more when I stated my case when I voted?

You definitely are not taking into consideration the sheer lack that L_C has been posting lately.

And how am I the #1 wagoner? I didn't realize I reached such a prestige, care to show me how?


You seem to be grasping at quite a lot straws.

If you haven't noticed, Lamont is v/la. Him not posting doesn't count against him.

[magnus_orion]

I love how as soon as L_C is brought up as lacking posting, he conveniently shows up.

^^ Scummy post ^^
See below \/

I did not notice he was V/LA. Thank you for clearing that up.

[magnus_orion]

Magnus, look at the guy's sig. It has nothing about being V/LA, which is normally where everyone puts it.

As soon as he got brought up as lack of posting, and then you said he was V/LA, he showed up, which seems to me that he's been here the whole time lurking.

v/la stands for vacation/limited access.
Limited access means access is available, but limited.
And I don't put v/la messages in my sig, and while I don't consider myself a prime example of "normal" I still don't see where this normally is coming from.
I suspect lamont, but I don't agree that his having limited access is suspicious.


Oh, and what vi said about the slips. Its unecessary.

[magnus_orion]

The best way to approach a miller claim is simply accept they are going to come up scum to investigations, and put them under greater scrutiny than normal. That said, the flavor and role name to reinforce the idea of a miller would be helpful.