The Manor: Chzo Mafia (Game Over!)

[ZazieR]

Hi

(Sorry Tajo... This will likely be your third game in which you are stuck with me >.< I''ll try to behave during my read and analysis)

[ZazieR]

Vig Vote Tally

Deadline

:

8am GMT June 25

Setael-7 (Lamont, Pyro, Amished, Sironi, Devastation, Zwet, Dramonic)

Devastation-5 (Stepho, Rock, Elmo, Naomi, X)
Zwet-2 (Nyx, Pablo,)
Lamont-1 (Setael)
Pablo-1 (Tajo)

Not vig-voting scum:

AJ

"Vote early and vote often or get the rope!"

Saw this in Tox''s post. What''s this?

[ZazieR]

Please change that deadline for the vig vote tally >.<

[ZazieR]

I think if the vig votes remain unchanged as they are, Setael will be vigged regardless of how ZazieR votes.

Have fun reading all our garbage >_>

Which is why I was hoping for an extension of the vig deadline >.<
I''m not even at the part where Setael enters.

[ZazieR]

Vig Vote Tally

Deadline

:

8am GMT June 26(?)

Setael-7 (Lamont, Pyro, Amished, Sironi, Devastation, Zwet, Dramonic)

Devastation-5 (Stepho, Rock, Elmo, Naomi, Xtoxm)
Zwet-2 (Nyx, Pablo,)
Lamont-1 (Setael)
Pablo-1 (Tajo)

Not vig-voting scum:

Zazier

"Vote early and vote often or get the rope!"

''Haastige spoed is zelden goed'' >.<
(Haste makes waste)

[ZazieR]

Hey Tox
Good to see you again. Hopefully you''re not mad that I''ve killed you twice now (NG 686 and Mafia 87)

I''m already reading (page 21) so I hope I can state my opinions soon.

[ZazieR]

Hi

(Sorry Tajo... This will likely be your third game in which you are stuck with me >.< I''ll try to behave during my read and analysis)

Hi Zazie.

Its always nice to see you around and comment.

If you are town obv obv.

<3

That''s quite a surprise But a pleasant surprise though <3

[ZazieR]

Question

Do we know who will trigger the gun? As in, are we allowed to say who will shoot, or is it already decided?

[ZazieR]

If Amished is doc, I dont think its extremely obligatory for scum to kill him.

Please explain this.

My question goes only to game mechanics. Is it at least reasonable to assume that Mafia can both RB & kill Amished?

If scum have a roleblocker, it''s allowed to roleblock and kill the same player on one night, if that''s what you are asking.

[ZazieR]

Damn it >.<
Have to stop at page 44, when day 1 almost ends...

I''ve made some notes I want to look at again during day 1, and will post these and hopefully with my analysis of day 2 tomorrow.

[ZazieR]

Unless a similarly drastic chain of events begins between now and the vig deadline, its safe to say goodbye. If I'm still alive in 24 hours I'll post my take on all players in this game.

Wait. Are you trying to stall?
Why not post them now?

[ZazieR]

Now this is a whole different ball of wax. AJ will be replaced 100%. We need a replacement that is willing to re-read and make a responsible decision. I would recommend they start at least from D2 (Pg. 46) and read from there and see what they think, what questions they have etc.

[ZazieR]

YES I''m done reading.
I''ve made some notes of events/players I want to look at again and some important posts. So I''ll be looking at those soon and post them here with reasons why I wanted to point them out.

[ZazieR]

Ok, starting with posts that caught my attention.
The first one is post 557 (Devestation):

Okay Lamont, firstly the "battle of items" is something I quoted from YOU (post 529 which was in turn quoted from xtoxm), so don't try and pin that term on me.

Secondly: I did not say it WAS happening, I said "this might happen". Right now it CAN'T happen as there are not enough items present to HAVE a "battle", but if items start showing up at a faster rate I would expect to see something interesting show up.

To be honest, I don't want to even get one of those items in the first place.

Bolded is what bugs me. The given items can either help or destroy. If you''re town, you want to have an item in case it helps as catching scum comes before surviving. Also, you know your allignment. If you have an item, you know that it''s town who is controlling it. If you''re scum, you can try to get an item in case it helps town, but it could cost you your life. Which is something scum don''t want.

This is why I find it scummy that Devestation doesn''t want to have an item.

[ZazieR]

Next would be post 620 (NuevaVida):

DeCanter vote Lamont Cranston

I just used random.org and well i got you. I prefer random for thingsss which I have no idea what they couuld do

Very scummy. The choice should have been based upon the thought if you think it would be good for town to use or bad. This gives me the impression that he doesn''t care. Normally anti-town. But as it wasn''t shown how he did it ''randomly'', he could have chosen himself. This seems very likely to be the case as Lamont already had votes to drink the red fluid (now known as Cho''s blood).

[ZazieR]

Next would be a post from Setael (Post 931)

In it, she votes Devestation, while she also wouldn''t mind to vote Stepho. The next post shows a VC:

Vote Count

Lamont_Cranston - 6 (Sajin, hohum, Amished, Pablo Molinero, Devestation, Stephoscope)
Naomi_Saotome - 4 (Xtoxm, populartajo, Sironigous, Pyromaniac)
Pablo Molinero - 2 (Lamont_Cranston, Naomi_Saotome)
Stephoscope - 1 (The Replacement)
Devestation - 1 (Setael)

So I''d like to know from her why she didn''t switch to Stepho after this VC as he already had one vote from somebody else.

[ZazieR]

Then we come at Amished''s claim (Post 1062)

I''d like to know what he had written/asked to the mod as he mentioned PM''s.
Also, I don''t like this:

Due to pm's between the mod and I, I have no reason to believe I'm anything other than performing like a normal doctor. I've already asked if protecting hohum on N3 will save him, and KoC stated that he couldn't reveal that information.

I PM'd KoC and dayvigs or items with killing properties if picked up by somebody I protected will no longer kill. Other effects (probably *like* Lamont's posting restriction) will still take place, but dayvigs or items that kill won't work.

I find it odd that the mod couldn''t tell what would happen to Hohum, but that he could tell what would happen if a target would be hit by an item, while both fall under the same category.
Therefore, I doubt that there has been any communications between the mod and Amished of this kind.

[ZazieR]

The following post (Post 1097) makes me doubt his claim even more.

In this post, Amished ''answer'' Pyro''s question about what his flavour is. However, he doesn''t say what his so-called flavour is in his role. He tells something about Jonathan in the games.

Questions about this post:
Why did you add ''the Gatekeeper''?
Could you rephrase the part aimed at Hohum?
And what do you have as flavour in your role?

[ZazieR]

This isn''t a very important post (Post 1196), but I do want to hear an answer from Lamont.

Why did you put all these VC''s into one post and what did you learn from it?

[ZazieR]

Following up are posts 1229 and 1231.

Why did you not vote him?

(Note: he''s one of the players who I''ll discuss later. Is nobody interested into vigging him?)

[ZazieR]

Continuing with post 1257:

No I did not investigate, although I was tempted to... I decided to wait till tonight because I want the town's input on my choice...

...are you serious?

You were basically one of the top D1 lynch candidates yet you give up the major chance to help the town in even a little way.

sick.

Vote: Naomi

Very scummy vote. He''s voting her for not using her claimed ability. So either he thinks she''s telling the truth, but for one reason votes her. Or he thinks she''s scum. I get the impression it''s the first due to post 1274.

[ZazieR]

Regarding Post 1368, Sir, what do you mean with:

Minor suspicions -
anyone rushing Naomi lynch after she claimed.

especially...
Lamont and Zwet, but Zwet more than Lamont.

[ZazieR]

I forgot in which post I found the following quote, but it was re-quoted by Lamont in post 1414:

Also, has anyone ever heard of a dr. that protects themself as well as a multitude of other people? Especially without a scum roleblocker? How is that balanced?

@Setael:

Do you see here how you could be falling into a scum trap by thinking this way? On the other hand, if you are correct, how do we explain Ho living an extra day??

So what is the explanation here??

If you think he''s scum, how can he be falling into a scum trap?

[ZazieR]

Then came Post 1420

unvote, vote Zwet

(well, come on, he's just useless and you know the scum ain't gonna NK him)

First he used both his vote and vig-vote against somebody he thought was scum. Now, he wants to use his vig-vote against a player he doesn''t think is scum.
Pablo, what''s your opinion of Devestation?

[ZazieR]

Link?

[ZazieR]

And now that you''re here, why were you stalling to post your suspicions?

[ZazieR]

Why has Stepho dropped off everyone's radar after getting wagoned nicely D1?

Let's answer that later. For now, let's discuss why in the world you want to make a decision about lynching when we don't even know what the vig will reveal.

This is very scummy to me.
Yesterday, there was a no-lynch, mainly because of what was discussed during the day: What to do with the fluid.
Now, he''s trying to get it this way again by trying to only discuss the possible day-kill.
This is even worse when he''s vig-voting somebody he thinks is suspicious, and then tries to ''hide'' for the previous accusations by saying we should discuss the vig kill first aka trying to avoid suspicions.

[ZazieR]

Because typing those suspicions means going back to read 72 pages. Its currently 12:10am Thursday night.

Pass >_>

Was this also the case when you said the other times you''d read?

Also, see post 1801.

[ZazieR]

Regarding Page (Yes, Page) 57:

Pyro, you called Shadow lurker scum. Now, he''s been replaced, yet you didn''t mention this after the replacement got in. Why''s this?
Also, why did you vote Setael after you realised she didn''t replace Shadow?

[ZazieR]

I also have rather Stepho vig-killed.
So in case this is a possibility:

Vig-vote Stepho

If not, I''ll let you know who of Setael and Devestation I prefer, though I''m leaning Deves.

[ZazieR]

What''s wrong with a vig-wagon against Stepho?

[ZazieR]

Link?

Don't hold your breath.

Then I want him to answer it (again, if it was already responded too).

[ZazieR]

First of all, it''s possibly a vig kill.
So I''d like to use it on a scummy active lurker. Which is why I also proposed Rock as vig target.
But if Stepho flips, we have things to work with, which we won''t have if either Deves or Rock flips.

Anyway, on Stepho:
-Devil sign argument. Pushed this bad argument really hard and even voted you for it. Yet, when the ''Post Restriction'' from Lamont comes, he doesn''t push it.
-Trying to once again discuss the item first and after discussing the lynch, which went wrong yesterday, after a player asked what happened to the Stepho wagon of day 1.
(Which I''m curious about as well.)
Actually never mind. 3 of the 6 voters are absent. Which would leave Setael, Tox and Nyx. Opinions?

[ZazieR]

@Deves vig-voters

What information do you think we''ll get if Deves gets vigged?

[ZazieR]

Regarding Page (Yes, Page) 57:

Pyro, you called Shadow lurker scum. Now, he''s been replaced, yet you didn''t mention this after the replacement got in. Why''s this?
Also, why did you vote Setael after you realised she didn''t replace Shadow?

Lurkers should be pressured, not lynched.

Then why did you vote Setael?

[ZazieR]

Information we would get from a Stepho-kill:

-Bandwagon analysis of both a lynch and a vig-kill.
-Suspicions towards Lamont and Naomi can be investigated.

[ZazieR]

But I have to leave with in a few minutes >.<

I think we should use the vig kill against an active lurker, who appears scummy, and give information to work with. To me, that''s Stepho.
Second choice would be Pablo. And third either Deves or Rock.
I might be able to come online before vig-deadline, but I''m not sure. So this is all I can give regarding that discussion.

[ZazieR]

Why did everybody ignore my question?
What will we learn if Deves gets vigged? Who wanted to kill/not kill an active lurker? Active lurking is anti-town, but is done by both scum and town.

A Stepho vig-kill gives more information as there was once a bandwagon, and he has had interactions with other players, which Deves lacks.
If players want to use the vig-kill for more information who should become the lynch, Stepho, who''s also a scummy active lurker, is better than Deves.

[ZazieR]

2 reasons I'm not getting behind the Stepho wagon:

1- the presence of a counter wagon that might succeed actually makes me feel better about vigging dev. I would expect scum to fight it, so if it was too easy I'd be worried. Elmo we know is town but if dev flips scum zaz, pyro and xtoxm will need to be looked at. I think scum would feel comfortable about this since dev's wagon derails MY wagon so if they're accused they can point to my wagon as a sort of alibi.

2- steph's post that she thinks I'm town at a crucial point. Scum would have had no reason not to weigh in against me at that point and she wouldn't have been suspect when I flipped town. Basically, same reason I changed my mind about Lamont.

WTH?!
Wednesday the 24th:

@steph: why the decrease in activity? Elmo's right - we've been ignoring you today because you're not here. I still think you & might be scum buddies and I'm not surprised he wouldn't vote you.

Stepho has one post after this post of yours. So why the change of heart?
And have you actually read my reasons for vig-voting Stepho? So state why it''s better that Deves gets vig-shot.

[ZazieR]

Two scummy things from Deves:
-Not wanting an item
-Stalling his list of suspicions.
Other than that, a lot of active lurking.


The way Stepho attacked Lamont is much worse, especially due to his response when Lamont was ''faking'' a PR and his response afterwards.
And that he doesn''t want to be the centre of attention during the vig discussion (Elmo asked what happened to his bandwagon of day 1)


What''s actually the case against Deves? That he''s not helpful?
So yeah, I wouldn''t mind seeing the reason of each player who''s vig-voting Deves why he''s their choice.

[ZazieR]

Well you

did

forget to mention that he failed to vote D1 & we practically had to drag him kicking and screaming to a vig vote...

Anti-town behaviour. This doesn''t make him scum. And if this is so bad, what about Naomi?

And you also conveniently forget to mention how he slef-voted, claimed vanilla and committed atrocious defense abandonment.

Since when are the first two scummy? I don''t know what you mean with the third

He definitely deserves the rope...

Rope is lynch, not vig-kill. So state why the vig-kill should be used against Deves, while players want to use the results of the vig-kill for the lynch. Wouldn''t Stepho be a better vig-kill then?

[ZazieR]

Setael, you said this:

2 reasons I'm not getting behind the Stepho wagon:

1- the presence of a counter wagon that might succeed actually makes me feel better about vigging dev. I would expect scum to fight it, so if it was too easy I'd be worried. Elmo we know is town but if dev flips scum zaz, pyro and xtoxm will need to be looked at. I think scum would feel comfortable about this since dev's wagon derails MY wagon so if they're accused they can point to my wagon as a sort of alibi.

2- steph's post that she thinks I'm town at a crucial point. Scum would have had no reason not to weigh in against me at that point and she wouldn't have been suspect when I flipped town. Basically, same reason I changed my mind about Lamont.

But at the same time, you think that Stepho could be scumbuddies with Deves.
So what you''re saying in this quote is basically that those vig-voting Stepho might contain scum that don''t want Deves to get vigged. Combined with that you think Stepho might be a scumbuddy from Deves, you''re thinking that there is possibly scum on the vig-wagon from Stepho-scum in order to not get Deves-scum vigged.
If this is true, how does this make sense?
And if I misunderstood your position, please explain.

[ZazieR]

Also, I already said this too but dev's vig will reveal a lot about both those who moved from mw to dev and those who moved from dev to steph

Who''s MW?
And the second thing is also something we will learn if Stepho gets vigged, is it not?

[ZazieR]

And Amished got replaced in a different game, so perhaps he flaked?
Naomi, if I remember correctly, yo two know each other, right? Do you know perhaps more?

[ZazieR]

Zwet, Dramonic and Nyx need to choose a bigger wagon, unless they can show why the one they are voting is a better choice.

[ZazieR]

i am ding this fro my ipone so i appoligolze for any tpos. i think we sould exrend the deadkine to th 28.

Agreed, IF not everything will be about the vig-votes. There''s a lynch waiting as well.

[ZazieR]

Well you

did

forget to mention that he failed to vote D1 & we practically had to drag him kicking and screaming to a vig vote...

Anti-town behaviour. This doesn''t make him scum. And if this is so bad, what about Naomi?

Naomi can't be vigged bc amished said he protected her...

My point was that she has done the same. Yet, nobody commented on her about it. Secondly, she''s possibly immune to the vig-kill, but not to the lynch. So, that''s not a valid argument.

And you also conveniently forget to mention how he slef-voted, claimed vanilla and committed atrocious defense abandonment.

Since when are the first two scummy? I don''t know what you mean with the third

Claiming vanilla is potentially a very scummy thing to do. Scum will hide in vanilla all day long. Self-voting can also be a scum technique to do the same as can defense abandonment but that charge no longer holds against him...

The thing is, the first two can also be done by townies. To use the first against somebody, is very weak. There are more town than scum. How do you know which claim is from town and which from scum? Most of the time, you don''t. So I don''t like it that it''s used against somebody.
The selfvote is anti-town as it gives town less information. But once again, both scum and town do it. So to use this as an argument, you should first show that his selfvote was for a scum reason and not as frustrated town.
The third is indeed scummy, if it can be proven that he has actually seen of which he got accused. So that needs to be checked.

He definitely deserves the rope...

Rope is lynch, not vig-kill. So state why the vig-kill should be used against Deves, while players want to use the results of the vig-kill for the lynch. Wouldn''t Stepho be a better vig-kill then?

I understand your case for Stepho providing alot of info but frankly, there is alot of info to be gained regardless of who we vig... Gosh durn it, Devastation had better post that top 3 scummy list...

Not really true. With some vig kills we''ll learn a lot, and with some just a bit. Comparing Stepho and Deves, I think that a vigkill against Stepho would give us more information.
But I agree with the last part of your paragraph.[/b]

[ZazieR]

Well you

did

forget to mention that he failed to vote D1 & we practically had to drag him kicking and screaming to a vig vote...

Anti-town behaviour. This doesn''t make him scum. And if this is so bad, what about Naomi?

Naomi can't be vigged bc amished said he protected her...

My point was that she has done the same. Yet, nobody commented on her about it. Secondly, she''s possibly immune to the vig-kill, but not to the lynch. So, that''s not a valid argument.

And you also conveniently forget to mention how he slef-voted, claimed vanilla and committed atrocious defense abandonment.

Since when are the first two scummy? I don''t know what you mean with the third

Claiming vanilla is potentially a very scummy thing to do. Scum will hide in vanilla all day long. Self-voting can also be a scum technique to do the same as can defense abandonment but that charge no longer holds against him...

The thing is, the first two can also be done by townies. To use the first against somebody, is very weak. There are more town than scum. How do you know which claim is from town and which from scum? Most of the time, you don''t. So I don''t like it that it''s used against somebody.
The selfvote is anti-town as it gives town less information. But once again, both scum and town do it. So to use this as an argument, you should first show that his selfvote was for a scum reason and not as frustrated town.
The third is indeed scummy, if it can be proven that he has actually seen of which he got accused. So that needs to be checked.

He definitely deserves the rope...

Rope is lynch, not vig-kill. So state why the vig-kill should be used against Deves, while players want to use the results of the vig-kill for the lynch. Wouldn''t Stepho be a better vig-kill then?

I understand your case for Stepho providing alot of info but frankly, there is alot of info to be gained regardless of who we vig... Gosh durn it, Devastation had better post that top 3 scummy list...

Not really true. With some vig kills we''ll learn a lot, and with some just a bit. Comparing Stepho and Deves, I think that a vigkill against Stepho would give us more information.
But I agree with the last part of your paragraph.

[ZazieR]

I want to extend deadline for tomorrow. One day less for our lynch deadline is not going to make the difference.

I know there has to be vital information in this wagon transference.

And I do really want to make that steph reread.

Vote : vig deadline extension.

Well, if there will be one, can we extend it till sunday? I don''t know how long I can be online tomorrow >.<

[ZazieR]

Where did Deves say you are still on his list? Because I can''t find it.

Also, the thing is, Elmo called out your wagon. Then you comment that we shouldn''t discuss a lynch yet. But when all the players vote for a lynch, you say nothing. Only when your previous wagon gets pointed out.
When this happened, it seemed that Setael would be vigged. And she, together with The Replacement (and a bit Tox), were the most against you during day 1. However, this was mainly due to her assumed scumpair: you and Deves, who also had a chance of getting shot. So if he''s town, her suspicions could have decreased against you. (This is speculation, and therefore only a thought in my mind which I wanted to say out loud).

Then there is Lamont. You attacked him when Amished said that he might have a PR as scum. You wanted to test this out.
However, later he did show a possible PR. You didn''t believe the reason he gave for this, yet you don''t ask him to not use it. So why was this?

[ZazieR]

I want to extend deadline for tomorrow. One day less for our lynch deadline is not going to make the difference.

I know there has to be vital information in this wagon transference.

And I do really want to make that steph reread.

Vote : vig deadline extension.

Well, if there will be one, can we extend it till sunday? I don''t know how long I can be online tomorrow >.<

Sure. I wont have the time to properly read steph until this night.

Basically I want reasons for this wagon change and why it was done as soon as you brought the Steph subject to the table. Like I said it feels forced and my conspiracy sensors are tingling like crazy. Regardless of Steph alignment, it was pretty unexpected so there must be something there.

I can agree with you on that (Though I''m not sure if it''s forced )
But I''ll look at who switched and why after one of Stepho/Deves is vigged.

[ZazieR]

My point was that she has done the same. Yet, nobody commented on her about it. Secondly, she''s possibly immune to the vig-kill, but not to the lynch. So, that''s not a valid argument.

Your point was about the vig-vote too.

No. I said that Deves had done two scummy things, and compared it to what Stepho had done. What you pointed out were things that are all included in anti-town behaviour. Anti-town behaviour isn''t the same as scummy behaviour.

The thing is, the first two can also be done by townies. To use the first against somebody, is very weak. There are more town than scum. How do you know which claim is from town and which from scum? Most of the time, you don''t. So I don''t like it that it''s used against somebody.
The selfvote is anti-town as it gives town less information. But once again, both scum and town do it. So to use this as an argument, you should first show that his selfvote was for a scum reason and not as frustrated town.
The third is indeed scummy, if it can be proven that he has actually seen of which he got accused. So that needs to be checked.

I don't care if town do it too. That's not my point and a bad reason not to vig/lynch somebody nor is it my entire argument, just things you forgot to point out.

Once again, as said, the first two are included in anti-town behaviour, which isn''t the same as scummy. The third, depends on the context

Not really true. With some vig kills we''ll learn a lot, and with some just a bit. Comparing Stepho and Deves, I think that a vigkill against Stepho would give us more information.
But I agree with the last part of your paragraph.

Ya and I agree Stepho needs to start talking more because right now he is less valuable than even Deves is.

One thing bothers me about this Stepho wagon. He came out so strongly against Naomi. I really think this makes him town because she is obviously lying.

If you think he''s town, then why are you vig-voting him???

[ZazieR]

My point was that she has done the same. Yet, nobody commented on her about it. Secondly, she''s possibly immune to the vig-kill, but not to the lynch. So, that''s not a valid argument.

Your point was about the vig-vote too.

No. I said that Deves had done two scummy things, and compared it to what Stepho had done. What you pointed out were things that are all included in anti-town behaviour. Anti-town behaviour isn''t the same as scummy behaviour.

Right but its part of the case which you left out which was my point.

As said, I pointed two things out I saw as scummy from him. I don't think anti-town behaviour is scummy, and therefore, I didn't include these points in my list of scummy things Deves has done.

The thing is, the first two can also be done by townies. To use the first against somebody, is very weak. There are more town than scum. How do you know which claim is from town and which from scum? Most of the time, you don''t. So I don''t like it that it''s used against somebody.
The selfvote is anti-town as it gives town less information. But once again, both scum and town do it. So to use this as an argument, you should first show that his selfvote was for a scum reason and not as frustrated town.
The third is indeed scummy, if it can be proven that he has actually seen of which he got accused. So that needs to be checked.

I don't care if town do it too. That's not my point and a bad reason not to vig/lynch somebody nor is it my entire argument, just things you forgot to point out.

Once again, as said, the first two are included in anti-town behaviour, which isn''t the same as scummy. The third, depends on the context

Wrong! It is part of the entire picture which needs to be examined.

What is part of the entire picture? All the above points?

Not really true. With some vig kills we''ll learn a lot, and with some just a bit. Comparing Stepho and Deves, I think that a vigkill against Stepho would give us more information.
But I agree with the last part of your paragraph.

Ya and I agree Stepho needs to start talking more because right now he is less valuable than even Deves is.

One thing bothers me about this Stepho wagon. He came out so strongly against Naomi. I really think this makes him town because she is obviously lying.

If you think he''s town, then why are you vig-voting him???

Because he is heavily lurking and his case needs to be explored. Part of that case revolves around Naomi. We can discuss this now as well. Two competing wagons is very helpful to the town.

One thing bothers me about this Stepho wagon. He came out so strongly against Naomi. I really think this makes him town because she is obviously lying.

May I ask what your opinion of Naomi would be if Stepho flips scum?

[ZazieR]

Tajo, regarding your post about Stepho, you mentioned Stepho VS Lamont a lot.
So I was wondering if you could also see a connection between Stepho and Lamont.

[ZazieR]

Setael, you said this:

2 reasons I'm not getting behind the Stepho wagon:

1- the presence of a counter wagon that might succeed actually makes me feel better about vigging dev. I would expect scum to fight it, so if it was too easy I'd be worried. Elmo we know is town but if dev flips scum zaz, pyro and xtoxm will need to be looked at. I think scum would feel comfortable about this since dev's wagon derails MY wagon so if they're accused they can point to my wagon as a sort of alibi.

2- steph's post that she thinks I'm town at a crucial point. Scum would have had no reason not to weigh in against me at that point and she wouldn't have been suspect when I flipped town. Basically, same reason I changed my mind about Lamont.

But at the same time, you think that Stepho could be scumbuddies with Deves.
So what you''re saying in this quote is basically that those vig-voting Stepho might contain scum that don''t want Deves to get vigged. Combined with that you think Stepho might be a scumbuddy from Deves, you''re thinking that there is possibly scum on the vig-wagon from Stepho-scum in order to not get Deves-scum vigged.
If this is true, how does this make sense?
And if I misunderstood your position, please explain.

Setael, still this^^

[ZazieR]

Also, Zazie is a girl, dev.

This. Please remind it. Those who haven't can't tell you what happened to them

[ZazieR]

ugh, I hate people who have a gender.

Setael my reasons are the same as anyone else who has said you are scum so far. All those reasons add up into one gigantic Setael-is-scum-fest.

Can you restate them?

[ZazieR]

Where did Deves say you are still on his list? Because I can''t find it.

I can't tell what you are responding to here.

I didn't respond to anything. I looked back at your reason for vig-voting Deves. It had to do with you being on his scumlist, while Lamont wasn't for reasons that can also be stated for you (The attack against the claim from Naomi). Yet, I can't find where he said that you were on his list. So can you show where he did say so?

Also, the thing is, Elmo called out your wagon. Then you comment that we shouldn''t discuss a lynch yet. But when all the players vote for a lynch, you say nothing. Only when your previous wagon gets pointed out.

Again, my personal life has been crazy lately and I haven't had as much time to read and participate as I would like. I apologize, but I've really only managed to respond to posts that are addressed to me. And, by that point, I felt that we really needed to get the vig out of the way. I was not really a candidate for the vig then...it had nothing to do with me saving myself, and everything to do with making an informed lynch, based on the vig results, without rushing.

Can you give a date since when RL got crazy for you?

When this happened, it seemed that Setael would be vigged. And she, together with The Replacement (and a bit Tox), were the most against you during day 1. However, this was mainly due to her assumed scumpair: you and Deves, who also had a chance of getting shot. So if he''s town, her suspicions could have decreased against you. (This is speculation, and therefore only a thought in my mind which I wanted to say out loud).

To anyone who still thinks Devestation and I are a scum pair--please let's vig Devestation, I believe he is scum, I want him vigged.

The thought in my mind has gotten even more stronger.

Then there is Lamont. You attacked him when Amished said that he might have a PR as scum. You wanted to test this out.
However, later he did show a possible PR. You didn''t believe the reason he gave for this, yet you don''t ask him to not use it. So why was this?

Because I did not believe Naomi's claim at the time, and was attacking her instead of worrying about Lamont. You sound accusatory, so I'd appreciate it if you'd explain how this behavior even makes sense if I were scum.

Yet, you also thought Lamont was lying. But did nothing to question his 'PR' at that time. Even though you were very positive that he was scum, before Naomi claimed due to an example of scum having to use a PR. I see no reason why you'd not question him about a PR you thought was fake.
There are some reasons possible:
-Naomi claimed Trilby. If you are scum and she's not, you want the powerrole out of the game.
-Lamont is your buddy. The first attack was used to give the impression that you two aren't scum together(bussing). But due to Naomi, you could drop your attacks, trying to save one of you or Lamont one day extra.
-Nobody was buying your attacks against Lamont, and some saw them as scummy. To not draw unwanted attention, you attack somebody else: Naomi.

Need more?

[ZazieR]

The lack of a counter claim,

plus the comments from Naomi and the mod today

, are all in line with an honest townie who just happened to roleclaim really poorly.

1) If Trilby is a safe claim there would be no CC
2) What does, "plus the comments from Naomi and the mod today" mean?

I'm interested in the answer to 2 as well.

[ZazieR]

I am now almost positive that Naomi's claim is legitimate. Anyone who wants to say I'm scummy for *changing my mind based on analysis of information that is available* had better be able to explain.

I have clearly explained how Naomi is lying here. It is for you to explain what this "new info" is that suddenly brought you to change your mind.

Why are you and Devestation so keen on giving *you* the credit for the attack on Naomi's claim that *I* had so much to do with?

I already said that I changed my mind and determined that Naomi's statements were more in line with an inexperienced townie than with scum. I don't feel any need to waste more time explaining my thoughts on Naomi, given that she is apparently not a candidate for vig or lynch. If you're going to act like I'm scummy, you'd better explain how my actions are in line with what scum might do.

Even if she wasn't a candidate, your thought process here could give some info regarding you. So why not give this info?
Also, last VC, she had votes. So:

Mod

- could we get a VC?

[ZazieR]

@Tajo

You actually 'commented' on Stepho's response, but you never state what you thought of Deves response. Why's that and what did you think of it?

[ZazieR]

Tajo, regarding your post about Stepho, you mentioned Stepho VS Lamont a lot.
So I was wondering if you could also see a connection between Stepho and Lamont.

As I pointed out Steph is really keen on lynching Lammont. Lyncher/lynchee relationship comes to mind. Pretty clear that if one of them is scum, the other its automatically cleared of being scum with the other.

What do you actually think is most likely?
A. Lamont-town, Stepho-town
B. Lamont-scum, Stepho-town
C. Lamont-town, Stepho-scum
D. Lamont-scum, Stepho-scum
E. Something else

and why?

[ZazieR]

@Tajo

You actually 'commented' on Stepho's response, but you never state what you thought of Deves response. Why's that and what did you think of it?

Dev response was kinda meh, nothing too relevant to make me change my mind about me thinking he is a healthy lynch. Ive recently developed a dislike for quote battle things and what not.

Do you think Steph is more scummy than Dev? Why?

Yes. This explains why.

[ZazieR]

Vig Vote Tally

Deadline

:

June 29

Devastation-7 (Stepho, Rock, Naomi, Tajo, Setael, Devastation, Pablo)

Stepho-6 (Zazier, Elmo, Pyro, Xtoxm, Sironi, Lamont)
Setael-3 (Amished, Zwet, Dramonic)
Zwet-1 (Nyx)

Not vig-voting scum: _

"Vote early and vote often or get the rope!"

In other words, Zwet, Nyx, Dramonic (and perhaps Amished) should change wagons unless they can argue why the player they are voting is a better target.

[ZazieR]

Also lamont, different factions.

What was this aimed at?

[ZazieR]

<<
>>

With Nyx gone, this could take a while.
If we don't move it we're going to have a no-lynch.

Any reason why you aren''t trying to convince others to get Setael vig-shot?

[ZazieR]

What do you actually think is most likely?
A. Lamont-town, Stepho-town
B. Lamont-scum, Stepho-town
C. Lamont-town, Stepho-scum
D. Lamont-scum, Stepho-scum
E. Something else

My feeling leans towards E, B, and A


I think Stepho is refering to post 1206...
Where KoC explains why, as he put it ...allowed players with less than normal experience to participate in this game...

Nyx I hope you're back on Monday!

If I remember correctly, you major FoSed Stepho yesterday. So when and why did your opinion of him change?
And why are you responding to a question that is aimed at Stepho?

[ZazieR]

Looking back, Naomi never told what the flavor was with her claim. So can you do so?

[ZazieR]

Also,

Could we have a vote count?

Not sure if this also have to be bolded green

[ZazieR]

@Lamont

What''s your opinion at this moment:
A Stepho-town, Naomi-town
B Stepho-scum, Naomi-town
C Stepho-town, Naomi-scum
D Stepho-scum, Naomi-scum
E Something else

and why?

[ZazieR]

Stepho, this

[ZazieR]

I don't see us making a lynch at this time without a major re-alignment, but I am pretty sure that either Stephoscope or Naomi are scum, and within 24 hours I will have made my decision as to which one to vote for.

And if you have read what Deves says later on, you''d know that he has a neutral opinion of Lamont.
Also, he stated in day 1 why he was suspicious of you.

[ZazieR]

Can you give a date since when RL got crazy for you?

I don't have an exact date, but you'll notice that I stopped signing up for games a while back. I was consistently playing four at a time for months before.

Yet, you also thought Lamont was lying. But did nothing to question his 'PR' at that time. Even though you were very positive that he was scum, before Naomi claimed due to an example of scum having to use a PR. I see no reason why you'd not question him about a PR you thought was fake.
There are some reasons possible:
-Naomi claimed Trilby. If you are scum and she's not, you want the powerrole out of the game.
-Lamont is your buddy. The first attack was used to give the impression that you two aren't scum together(bussing). But due to Naomi, you could drop your attacks, trying to save one of you or Lamont one day extra.
-Nobody was buying your attacks against Lamont, and some saw them as scummy. To not draw unwanted attention, you attack somebody else: Naomi.

Need more?

Or maybe it's EXACTLY as I explained it, that my attention had shifted from Lamont to Naomi. Are you claiming my attacks on Naomi were unwarranted?

And you're misrepresenting me, saying that I was sure Lamont was scum because of the devil sign thing. I was sure he was scum *because of his being stubborn and not saying he wouldn't use it*. There's a huge difference.

You asked me to explain how your behaviour would make sense as scum. I give you reasons. (Comment on your first sentence of the second paragraph)
Your attacks against Naomi weren''t unwarranted, but I find it noteworthy that you didn''t question Lamont when you thought he was lying.
And I never said that you thought he was scum due to the devil sign thing. However, you asked him not to use it. But when he does show a PR, you did not ask him to drop it. Even when you thought he was lying.

[ZazieR]

I don't see us making a lynch at this time without a major re-alignment, but I am pretty sure that either Stephoscope or Naomi are scum, and within 24 hours I will have made my decision as to which one to vote for.

And if you have read what Deves says later on, you''d know that he has a neutral opinion of Lamont.
Also, he stated in day 1 why he was suspicious of you.

So? This is scummy to me, I completely answered your question and you're acting like I missed something.

You did miss something: Deves list of opinions.
Here he states why he has a neutral opinion of Lamont. Nowhere does he mention his attacks against Naomi. Therefore, I think that your reason for vig-voting Deves is invalid.
So state why I''m wrong with this.

[ZazieR]

You asked me to explain how your behaviour would make sense as scum. I give you reasons. (Comment on your first sentence of the second paragraph)
Your attacks against Naomi weren''t unwarranted, but I find it noteworthy that you didn''t question Lamont when you thought he was lying.
And I never said that you thought he was scum due to the devil sign thing. However, you asked him not to use it. But when he does show a PR, you did not ask him to drop it. Even when you thought he was lying.

I'd arrrrgh-ue *groan* that my 951 and 989 are the strongest criticisms of Lamont's fake PR that were made. Why would I question him directly or ask him to stop? Do you really think he would have? I'm not going to waste my time for the sake of consistency. And again, that fake PR does have a rational explanation, and I didn't believe the devil sign did.

Why would you have asked? To prove that he was lying? The devil sign was farfetched, but this wasn''t as there was clearly a PR. You thought he was scum and you thought that he was lying about the ''aaarrrgh'' PR. Yet, you didn''t ask anything about it. Naomi hadn''t even claimed yet when Lamont first started. So your argument that you were grilling Naomi doesn''t make sense now as well.
No, I don''t think he would have stopped. But why should that matter? Weren''t you trying to get him to stop with the devil sign, even when he had shown he wouldn''t? In that case, you also tried him to stop. But when the ''real'' PR came, of which you thought it was a lie, you didn''t. And I see no reason why that is.
As for his explanation, that came day 2. So that doesn''t explain why you didn''t question him when he first started this ''PR''.

[ZazieR]

And you (Stepho) still haven''t explained what comments have made you think that Naomi''s claim is true.

[ZazieR]

You asked me to explain how your behaviour would make sense as scum. I give you reasons. (Comment on your first sentence of the second paragraph)
Your attacks against Naomi weren''t unwarranted, but I find it noteworthy that you didn''t question Lamont when you thought he was lying.
And I never said that you thought he was scum due to the devil sign thing. However, you asked him not to use it. But when he does show a PR, you did not ask him to drop it. Even when you thought he was lying.

I'd arrrrgh-ue *groan* that my 951 and 989 are the strongest criticisms of Lamont's fake PR that were made. Why would I question him directly or ask him to stop? Do you really think he would have? I'm not going to waste my time for the sake of consistency. And again, that fake PR does have a rational explanation, and I didn't believe the devil sign did.

Why would you have asked? To prove that he was lying? The devil sign was farfetched, but this wasn''t as there was clearly a PR. You thought he was scum and you thought that he was lying about the ''aaarrrgh'' PR. Yet, you didn''t ask anything about it. Naomi hadn''t even claimed yet when Lamont first started. So your argument that you were grilling Naomi doesn''t make sense now as well.
No, I don''t think he would have stopped. But why should that matter? Weren''t you trying to get him to stop with the devil sign, even when he had shown he wouldn''t? In that case, you also tried him to stop. But when the ''real'' PR came, of which you thought it was a lie, you didn''t. And I see no reason why that is.
As for his explanation, that came day 2. So that doesn''t explain why you didn''t question him when he first started this ''PR''.

Again, I wasn't going to waste my time for the sake of "consistency", not when I was focused on Naomi. You're trying too hard here (just like you were with my steroids example), hopefully everyone else can see it, and that's all I have to say about this.

When it first started, Naomi hadn''t claimed. This is even stated in the post you just quoted. Yet, you do not try to counter that argument. Why''s that? And how come you didn''t?
You thought he was scum, you thought he was lying. Your reason for not questioning him about the PR, is according to you, because of Naomi''s claim.
This isn''t true as pointed out as Lamont''s PR came before the claim.

So state the reason why you didn''t question him.

[ZazieR]

And don''t talk about ongoing games.

[ZazieR]

Also lamont, different factions.

What was this aimed at?

Would you like me to answer this?

Sure

[ZazieR]

And you (Stepho) still haven''t explained what comments have made you think that Naomi''s claim is true.

Naomi's entire body of work

and the mod's 1206, along with the lack of a counterclaim with apparent protection available.

Elaborate on the bolded, explain why that post from the mod increases the truth of Naomi''s claim and tell me what happened to the safe-claim argument.

[ZazieR]

In response to post 1966:
He indeed said that Lamont nailed the claim. However, unless you can prove that this gave Lamont town-points, I don''t see how this makes Deves scummy.

[ZazieR]

And Lamont still can't explain how changing my mind is supposedly a scumtell.

Its just something I disagree with at this point. You are correct that it cannot be a scum tell because we are apparently dealing with two mafi factions in this game. That allows for both you and Naomi to be scum, each in a different faction. The only thing I can be certain of is that you both cannot be scum in the

same

faction.

Wait. Two mafia factions?

[ZazieR]

And Lamont still can't explain how changing my mind is supposedly a scumtell.

Its just something I disagree with at this point. You are correct that it cannot be a scum tell because we are apparently dealing with two mafi factions in this game. That allows for both you and Naomi to be scum, each in a different faction. The only thing I can be certain of is that you both cannot be scum in the

same

faction.

Wait. Two mafia factions?

Yes this is the theory. I'll go back and get the N1 kills but there are clearly two seperate killing entities very clearly described.

Which could also mean a SK or a vig, instead of a second mafia group.
So why do you assume two mafia groups?

[ZazieR]

I do not really prefer to do a complete list, but I can put up those who I see as scummy.

[ZazieR]

Vig Vote Tally

Deadline

:

June 29

Devastation-6 (Stepho, Rock, Naomi, Tajo, Setael, Pablo)

Stepho-6 (Zazier, Elmo, Pyro, Xtoxm, Sironi, Lamont)
Setael-3 (Amished, Zwet, Dramonic)
Zwet-1 (Nyx)

Not vig-voting scum: _

"Vote early and vote often or get the rope!"

Devestation unvoted

[ZazieR]

Then you should either say why Setael should be vig-voted or switch to the Stepho vig-wagon.

[ZazieR]

He''s asking why you aren''t vig-voting a player.

[ZazieR]

I'm also asking why everyone isn't voting Nyx right this very moment NOW NOW NOW!?

Because it''s possible that RL is keeping him up.

[ZazieR]

I'm also asking why everyone isn't voting Nyx right this very moment NOW NOW NOW!?

Because it''s possible that

RL is keeping him up

he's stalling and hurting the town I just haven't typed my vote in yet.

/fixed

He''s indeed stalling, but that''s probably due to some RL issues. Either way, it''s not possible to check this.
So I''m not gonna vote him for that reason.

[ZazieR]

He needs to be like at L-5 or L-4 like NAO.

Nu-uh. What he needs, is some prodding:

Mod - can Nyx be prodded?

[ZazieR]

Also:

Dramonic, Zwet, Nyx and Deves should vig-vote

The choices are Deves, Stepho with both 6 votes or another player of which you should present a case why he/she should be vig-voted over the other two.
Please choose in your next post.

[ZazieR]

• 

Why a prod instead of at least L5?? This isn't kiddie-time anymore. He is deliberately hurting the town. I don't buy his "coincidental" VLA and besides ITS OVER, WHERE THE HECK IS HE!? I say he needs to be approaching the gallows NAO!!!!!

Because scummy players should get lynched. If he hadn''t stated he''d be V/LA, I might have considered it. But even then, there are scummier players out there.

[ZazieR]

FoS: Lamont

, Your just a LITTLE too eager to lynch Nyx for my liking, especially since we don't know why your around.

Vig Stepho

You didnt seriously expect me to choose myself again did you?

Why did you wait with your vig-vote?

[ZazieR]

Vig Vote Tally

Deadline

:

June 29

Stepho-7 (Zazier, Elmo, Pyro, Xtoxm, Sironi, Lamont, Devastation)

Devastation-6 (Stepho, Rock, Naomi, Tajo, Setael, Pablo)
Setael-3 (Amished, Zwet, Dramonic)
Zwet-1 (Nyx)

Not vig-voting scum: _

"Vote early and vote often or get the rope!"

Fixed

[ZazieR]

"since we don't know why your around." should be "Since we dont know why Nyx is not around".

I have lots of memory lapses like that.

Devastation, "too eager"?? Did you read the Mod's note?? You didn't even vote yesterday!!

(sigh) counts to 10...

Are you trying to tell me you don't understand how important it is that we have time to properly discuss our D2 lynch?

The fact is he SAID he would be here and he isn't. He knew we had a vig vote and I don't buy it for a second that he has access issues. This is a deliberate stalling technique and we ALL need to be ringing his stalling carcass up to L5 IMMEDIATELY.

What happened to your suspicions of Naomi?

[ZazieR]

I'm also asking why everyone isn't voting Nyx right this very moment NOW NOW NOW!?

Because it''s possible that

RL is keeping him up

he's stalling and hurting the town I just haven't typed my vote in yet.

/fixed

He''s indeed stalling, but that''s probably due to some RL issues. Either way, it''s not possible to check this.
So I''m not gonna vote him for that reason.

I don't consider this a pro-town sentiment.

FoS Zazier

Because?

[ZazieR]

Because you are enabling his stalling.

Unless you can prove that this is some sort of clever scum tactic of stalling the vig-shot, I have no reason to believe that it is.

[ZazieR]

"since we don't know why your around." should be "Since we dont know why Nyx is not around".

I have lots of memory lapses like that.

Devastation, "too eager"?? Did you read the Mod's note?? You didn't even vote yesterday!!

(sigh) counts to 10...

Are you trying to tell me you don't understand how important it is that we have time to properly discuss our D2 lynch?

The fact is he SAID he would be here and he isn't. He knew we had a vig vote and I don't buy it for a second that he has access issues. This is a deliberate stalling technique and we ALL need to be ringing his stalling carcass up to L5 IMMEDIATELY.

What happened to your suspicions of Naomi?

That is not on the table for discussion at this moment. Right now we have a LIFE OR DEATH town issue we need resolved IMMEDIATELY.

You want Naomi dead. So why aren''t you trying to get her lynched?
Just bring it up on the table again.

[ZazieR]

No you don't get it. You can't prove it isn't and the odds are it IS. Tell me what the odds are of somebody going VLA EXACTLY at the time we need a vig vote and then staying away beyond the VLA period??

I mean CMON -- step into a public library for 2 minutes and freaking type something!

Why are you resisting the standard tactic of voting lurkers especially now when the town DESPERATElY needs him here??

This is why your lack of action is anti-town.

The odds are also that he IS V/LA. Which is what I believe.
There are many reasons why he can be V/LA and why his V/LA could be expanded outside it being a scumtactic. Not everybody has the time to go online every day.
As for the Public Library, he lives in the Netherlands. If his library has the same rules as my previous one, he isn''t allowed to use it for MS. And that is if the library has a computer, as my current one doesn''t have any.

As for my ''resistance'', I don''t vote lurkers. Never did, never will unless there''s a very good reason to do so, because those lynches are useless.
Yes, we need him. But I believe he has a good reason why he''s not here due to RL. So I do not believe this is a scumtactic, hence no vote.

[ZazieR]

"since we don't know why your around." should be "Since we dont know why Nyx is not around".

I have lots of memory lapses like that.

Devastation, "too eager"?? Did you read the Mod's note?? You didn't even vote yesterday!!

(sigh) counts to 10...

Are you trying to tell me you don't understand how important it is that we have time to properly discuss our D2 lynch?

The fact is he SAID he would be here and he isn't. He knew we had a vig vote and I don't buy it for a second that he has access issues. This is a deliberate stalling technique and we ALL need to be ringing his stalling carcass up to L5 IMMEDIATELY.

What happened to your suspicions of Naomi?

That is not on the table for discussion at this moment. Right now we have a LIFE OR DEATH town issue we need resolved IMMEDIATELY.

You want Naomi dead. So why aren''t you trying to get her lynched?
Just bring it up on the table again.

Now I'm RERALLY starting to suspect you. NO I won't bring it up again. Instead I'm bringing up the fact that you and Nyx are stalling together. Explain that.

Or I believe that you''re using a crap argument. This reason to vote Nyx is bad. I''m not convinced, and when ever that is the case, I''ll do anything to stop the lynch from happening.
As for you not wanting to bring up Naomi, that is noted. Because ever since the end of day 1, you''ve tried to get her lynched. And when Stepho announced that he believed her claim, your responses were telling enough. The fact that you now don''t want to discuss it, needs an explanation.

[ZazieR]

EBWOP regarding Naomi, you tried to get her vigged as well at the start of this day.

[ZazieR]

I don't agree with your lurker policy. You can clearly see that by checking my wiki with the link provided.

You have avoided the tremendous coincidence this all is and how the odds are against his VLA claim being genuine because of that.

I hold that he clearly and deliberately stalled right out in the open and you are helping him by advocating for him while he does it.

This is an issue of such importance it would require you to forsake your lurker policy to vote him

if you were town.

There is a very good reason not to vote him if he''s scum.
So either way, if he was or wasn''t trying to stall this game (of which I still think he wasn''t), voting does not help in this case.
Think about this, right now.
And I''ve been in a game where the lurker lynches cost the town almost the game. If the cops wouldn''t have been there, they would have lost. So this only reinforces my opinion of lynching lurkers.

[ZazieR]

"since we don't know why your around." should be "Since we dont know why Nyx is not around".

I have lots of memory lapses like that.

Devastation, "too eager"?? Did you read the Mod's note?? You didn't even vote yesterday!!

(sigh) counts to 10...

Are you trying to tell me you don't understand how important it is that we have time to properly discuss our D2 lynch?

The fact is he SAID he would be here and he isn't. He knew we had a vig vote and I don't buy it for a second that he has access issues. This is a deliberate stalling technique and we ALL need to be ringing his stalling carcass up to L5 IMMEDIATELY.

What happened to your suspicions of Naomi?

That is not on the table for discussion at this moment. Right now we have a LIFE OR DEATH town issue we need resolved IMMEDIATELY.

You want Naomi dead. So why aren''t you trying to get her lynched?
Just bring it up on the table again.

Now I'm RERALLY starting to suspect you. NO I won't bring it up again. Instead I'm bringing up the fact that you and Nyx are stalling together. Explain that.

Or I believe that you''re using a crap argument. This reason to vote Nyx is bad. I''m not convinced, and when ever that is the case, I''ll do anything to stop the lynch from happening.
As for you not wanting to bring up Naomi, that is noted. Because ever since the end of day 1, you''ve tried to get her lynched. And when Stepho announced that he believed her claim, your responses were telling enough. The fact that you now don''t want to discuss it, needs an explanation.

Stop trying to sidetrack the issue. The only thing that needs an explanation is your trying to change the subject when the town needs Nyx back NOW. There is NOTHING wrong with putting him at L5 where he needs to be but you are fighting it tooth and nail and THAT is what needs explaining.

I already told you, when I''m not convinced by a case, I''ll do anything to stop it. Just check the above quote as it''s stated there.
And now explain Naomi.

[ZazieR]

Tuesday, yes, he''s already late.
Right now, it''s 10.30 AM in case you also wanted to know that.

[ZazieR]

Lamont, first of all, I don''t agree with the reason for attacking Nyx with this reason. Which is why I fight against it.
However, if you''ve found out what I meant with post 2063, then you should know by now that attacking Nyx is the wrong move at this moment if you believe he''s scum.

[ZazieR]

Tuesday, yes, he''s already late.
Right now, it''s 10.30 AM in case you also wanted to know that.

Thank you and please vote him if you're town. If you're scum please continue to help him stall.

I''ll take this as you don''t know what I''m talking about in post 2063. Do I really need to spell it for you?

[ZazieR]

As for my ''resistance'', I don''t vote lurkers unless there''s a very good reason to do so.

If you aren't willing to vote a lurker now then you never will period so please don't say that you would.

It depends on the context. Because now that I think about it, I have once made a case against a lurker who also got lynched with my vote on it.
Besides, I also said once that I''d never want to policy lynch somebody. This has been changed due to a player.

[ZazieR]

Mod - can Rockatansky be prodded. And can you prod/replace Amished?

[ZazieR]

@Setael

You never responded to this. Could you do so?

Setael, you said this:

2 reasons I'm not getting behind the Stepho wagon:

1- the presence of a counter wagon that might succeed actually makes me feel better about vigging dev. I would expect scum to fight it, so if it was too easy I'd be worried. Elmo we know is town but if dev flips scum zaz, pyro and xtoxm will need to be looked at. I think scum would feel comfortable about this since dev's wagon derails MY wagon so if they're accused they can point to my wagon as a sort of alibi.

2- steph's post that she thinks I'm town at a crucial point. Scum would have had no reason not to weigh in against me at that point and she wouldn't have been suspect when I flipped town. Basically, same reason I changed my mind about Lamont.

But at the same time, you think that Stepho could be scumbuddies with Deves.
So what you''re saying in this quote is basically that those vig-voting Stepho might contain scum that don''t want Deves to get vigged. Combined with that you think Stepho might be a scumbuddy from Deves, you''re thinking that there is possibly scum on the vig-wagon from Stepho-scum in order to not get Deves-scum vigged.
If this is true, how does this make sense?
And if I misunderstood your position, please explain.

Also, I already said this too but dev's vig will reveal a lot about both those who moved from mw to dev and those who moved from dev to steph

Who''s MW?
And the second thing is also something we will learn if Stepho gets vigged, is it not?

[ZazieR]

I don't agree with your lurker policy. You can clearly see that by checking my wiki with the link provided.

You have avoided the tremendous coincidence this all is and how the odds are against his VLA claim being genuine because of that.

I hold that he clearly and deliberately stalled right out in the open and you are helping him by advocating for him while he does it.

This is an issue of such importance it would require you to forsake your lurker policy to vote him

if you were town.

There is a very good reason not to vote him if he''s scum.
So either way, if he was or wasn''t trying to stall this game (of which I still think he wasn''t), voting does not help in this case.

Voting lurkers is necessary. The fact is we're dealing wth TWO village lynches here that are in clear jeopardy because of his lurking. The fact that you refuse to do anything about it demonstrates an anti-village attitude and I don't like it one bit.

Seriously, you don''t see that you''re the one who''s playing anti-town here? Can somebody please state that they do see it?

[ZazieR]

OR Can somebody please state how obviously Zazier is resisting the common wisdom that:

1) The best way to deal with lurkers is to VOTE them
2) This is an URGENT situation requiring IMMEDIATE action

And can somebody please tell Lamont that even if you agree with 1, this isn''t the right time for it now.

[ZazieR]

Ugh, seriously. I just want to hit you now with a frying pan until you finally realise that what you''re doing right now is bad if Nyx is scum.

[ZazieR]

What you don't seem to understand is WE NEED THIS VIG VOTE. He needs to come back or be lynched and therefore he needs to be L-5 IMMEDIATELY.

No, we need his vig shot.

[ZazieR]

Now look at that post of yours. Then you should be able to figure out what''s wrong with attacking him right now if he''s scum >.<

[ZazieR]

Then I hope others see it and can hint why you''re playing anti-town if you think Nyx is scum.

[ZazieR]

Lamont. Nyx has the gun, for crying out loud!!!
Do you now get it?

[ZazieR]

There you said it!

I think he is a scum lurker who is lurking on purpose to hurt the town. Lynching scum WILL help.

Confirm Vote Nyx

If you think he''s scum, what''s the point of saying it now?!
If he''s scum, he now knows, and can use the bullet the way he wants to.

So tell me what you did, wasn''t anti-town.

[ZazieR]

For Pyro -

Nyx - 6/10
Pyromaniac - ??
dramonic -5/10
populartajo - 8/10
Lamont_Cranston - 4/10
Sironigous - claimed
Stephoscope - 2/10
Devestation - 5/10
zwetschenwasser - 3.5/10
Elmo - 8/10
Rockatansky - 5/10
Amished - claimed
Setael - 3/10
ZazieR - 9/10
Xtoxm - 9/10
Pablo Molinero - 5/10
Naomi_Saotome - claimed

So...

Basically this reads as close to 10 is town, closer to 1 is scum.

5 is neutral read.

For Pyro, I'm completely confused.
For those that claimed, I'm waiting to see some other form of confirmation - especially from Naomi.

For myself, well... Yeah.

---

So... Essentially I'd extremely glad the Stepho wagon is happening.

If the Dev wagon goes through, I'm mostly feeling neutral on that.

Can you explain why Elmo is an 8, and not a 10?

[ZazieR]

You think he''s scum. Why not tell this after he has shot?
Now, he knows. So if players show interest in lynching him before he has shot, why would he listen to the town if he''s scum?
Do you see this now?

[ZazieR]

And after he had shot, we could also ask him questions about the V/LA to see if he was lying or not and what his reason was that he came back later.

[ZazieR]

You think he''s stalling, because he''s scum!
If this is true, what you did was anti-town, yes or no?
A prod would have gotten him back, or else a replacement and that player slot wouldn''t have known that somebody is suspecting him.

So who was here acting anti-town, mhmm?

[ZazieR]

And after he had shot, we could also ask him questions about the V/LA to see if he was lying or not and what his reason was that he came back later.

So meanwhile HE decides (scum) when the town gets the vig & lynch??

Your argument is so poor I'm starting to get the feeling you

want

him to lurk...

No, I don''t want him to lurk. Which is why I asked for a prod.
But at least if he only would have been prodded, he wouldn''t have known that you were suspecting him.
So if he kept stalling, you could pressure him when he was here. Which is better than just shouting that he''s scum when he''s not here.
True, or not?

[ZazieR]

I prefer that a scummy player gets killed, instead of a very pro-town player.
And yes, a prod would help. If he opens it, but doesn''t post, we know he''s stalling. If he doesn''t open it, we get a replacement and should therefore get more time till deadline with hopefully an active player.
How is this fail?
Lynching lurkers is fail. Pressuring lurkers with vote is fail.

[ZazieR]

So once again

Mod, please prod Nyx

I did it the first time.

[ZazieR]

A prod should be responded to within three days if I''m correct. If it isn''t opened by then, the mod will state that he will search for a replacement.
However, I''ve posted in bolded green now a few times, but so far the mod never responded >.<

But yeah, in case the prod will lead to the result that he''s stalling,

Vote Nyx

While waiting though, it''s time to work on some cases.

[ZazieR]

So in the end, we have decided to do both >.<

[ZazieR]

See post 2108.

[ZazieR]

Mod, could we have a VC?

[ZazieR]

Ok well Like I said I really enjoy playing with you.

Stop spamming >.< We''ve done a lot of this during the last few pages...
But so do I

[ZazieR]

Also:

Dramonic, Zwet, Nyx should vig-vote

The choices are Deves, Stepho with both 6 votes or another player of which you should present a case why he/she should be vig-voted over the other two.
Please choose in your next post.

Fixed, Deves has vig-voted Stepho already.

[ZazieR]

What's up guys? I take it the vigging is going swimmingly?

Well, at this moment, we''ve got three players not vig-voting one of the bigger wagons. You are on of them. So please choose:
A. Vig-vote Stepho, who has 7 votes.
B. Vig-vote Deves, who has 6 votes.
Or C. State why the one you are vig-voting should be vigged.

[ZazieR]

Vig Vote Tally

Deadline

:

June 29

Stepho-7 (Zazier, Elmo, Pyro, Xtoxm, Sironi, Lamont, Devastation)

Devastation-6 (Stepho, Rock, Naomi, Tajo, Setael, Pablo)
Setael-3 (Amished, Zwet, Dramonic)
Zwet-1 (Nyx)

Not vig-voting scum: _

"Vote early and vote often or get the rope!"

Fixed

The Vig-vote count as of now.

[ZazieR]

Just shoot

[ZazieR]

Oh, and

Unvote

[ZazieR]

Just do it.

No. Majority of town is needed. If we go with just "a lot" of votes you'll see it's too easy for the informed minority to influence the votes. We talked about this earlier ( during the decanter options )

Deadline is the 8th for the lynch.
The vig deadline has already been stalled a lot. Players want to use the results from the vig to make a decision of whom to lynch.
So please shoot so that we have some time to discuss the lynch.

[ZazieR]

I agree that runnin nyx up is not the most protown thing to do right now. I don't blame Lamont for being anxious though with the deadline looming. What we need to do is start discussing the lynch. I will likely be one of the two main wagons so everyone will post who their top lynch choice will be depending on the alignment of who's vigged.

@ zazie: even if they're scum buddies we'd learn a lot. Those who stayed on me rather than joining either wagon will end up looking pretty bad if they're both scum, wouldn't you say?

Depends on their reasons, which is the thing I''ll be looking at.
Who switched and why, and who stayed and why?

[ZazieR]

Why Stepho, Dramonic?

[ZazieR]

Vig Vote Tally

Deadline

:

June 29

Stepho-9 (Zazie, Elmo, Pyro, Xtoxm, Sironi, Lamont, Devastation, Nyx, Dramonic)

Devastation-6 (Stepho, Rock, Naomi, Tajo, Setael, Pablo)
Setael-2 (Amished, Zwet)


Not vig-voting scum: _

"Vote early and vote often or get the rope!"

(Partially quoted from Lamont ^.^)

[ZazieR]

As the group rushes in a mob towards the fireplace, Nyx tramples the stretching hands of Lamont and Devestation before grabbing the gun himself. "Looks like a pretty standard 8-bore shotgun. Rusty as hell, though. Probably fall apart after one shot."

I was rereading things so I could shoot properly. The shotgun shell is a 12 bore and the gun is a standaard 8 bore. I'm not gunsmart so can I use this combination to shoot ?

I don''t know

[ZazieR]

And wikipedia says yes to the gun question.

Can you please link where it was stated? I couldn''t find it >.<

[ZazieR]

Why Stepho, Dramonic?

This^^

[ZazieR]

12 bore is smaller than 8 bore.

[ZazieR]

I''m not sure, but does this site tell us that it can be used or not?

[ZazieR]

It''s the other way around.
We have a 8-bore shotgun and a 12 bore shell.

[ZazieR]

Isn''t Innocent the same as Vanilla Townie?

[ZazieR]

unvote

Иисус Христос.

What did you write in that foreign language?
And do you agree or disagree with post 2155 and why?

[ZazieR]

One thing Steph's claim makes clear is that Naomi is town. Either Steph is telling the truth and Naomi's claim is true, or Steph is scum who knows Naomi is telling the truth about her claim and is therefore using this to "confirm" himself.

Steph certainly shouldn't be killed today just in case he's telling the truth. He should be allowed at least one more night's investigation and Naomi should use her investigation tonight to. Those who were planning on a Naomi wagon need to decide on a new lynch candidate.

mod: is Amished being replaced?

I believe that either Amished or Stepho is lying. Amished mentioned ''the Gatekeeper'' with his claim. Nothing about being Innocent, while Stepho did.
Also, the role PM says ''

an

Innocent''. I don''t believe that somebody can both be a role an an innocent, as I think ''an innocent'' = townie. Therefore, I think he''s lying.

The thing is that as of now, only Naomi and Amished can confirm this.

[ZazieR]

"I am an investigative reporter, and am Innocent."

Innocent means VT. He scum with a botched up claim.

Apart from that, what rolecop gets alignment too? That's not how it works...He scum. Kill plox.

Tox, in all those games that I have been mean to you, please forgive me <3
He''s caught scum. Vig ahead please.

[ZazieR]

My PM provides my role and my alignment. I learn others' role and alignment when I investigate, as I made clear.

It should be obvious why I investigated Naomi.

I don't think it's WIFOM to say my actions between yesterday and today would have made no sense if I were scum. Why would I have tried so hard to save Naomi after my attacks on her yesterday?

Allignment? It only says that I''m an innocent. You''re caught scum.

[ZazieR]

3. Innocents win if they destroy all Evil players. The Evil characters win when they have a majority, and are deemed powerful enough to over-power any and all remaining factions.

How nice of you.
If this is true, there are no powerroles.
Three scum caught already then.

[ZazieR]

3. Innocents win if they destroy all Evil players. The Evil characters win when they have a majority, and are deemed powerful enough to over-power any and all remaining factions.

How nice of you.
If this is true, there are no powerroles.
Three scum caught already then.

Are you out of your mind?

Nope.

[ZazieR]

In my opinion, only scum would push for a Stepho vig right now. Yes, there's a chance he's lying. Only scum know for sure if he is or not. However, if he's telling the truth and we vig him we have lost a key power role. No townie will be sure enough he is lying to push his vig through.

FOS: zazier and xtoxm

@Stepho - is there anything in your role pm that indicates your power will diminish at any point like amished claimed his will? Also, once amished claimed yesterday, why didn't you claim (especially when it looked like you might be the deadline lynch)?

Do you think he''s lying or not and why?

[ZazieR]

3. Innocents win if they destroy all Evil players. The Evil characters win when they have a majority, and are deemed powerful enough to over-power any and all remaining factions.

How nice of you.
If this is true, there are no powerroles.
Three scum caught already then.

Are you out of your mind?

Nope.

I think you are, if you're convinced that:

- that rule actually spells out that there are no power roles
- the roleclaims of Amished, Naomi, and myself are all false (I am 99% convinced that they are all legit)
- a game like this would have no town power roles

Come on now.

-Sorry, but the role is called Innocent. Nowhere is there stated any allignment in the role PM. And the rules says ''Innocents''. So yeah, it seems very likely to be the case.
-The only role that came a bit across as believable was Amished. The main point I had against him was that he didn''t claim flavour from a possible role, but from what he knows.
-Sorry, but a game in which the innocents are called innocents, which includes some names according to claimed powerroles is already hard to believe. Now that you''ve claimed something that seems very unlikely due to what you claim to have written in your role PM, it makes a lot of sense that it''s possible.

[ZazieR]

3. Innocents win if they destroy all Evil players. The Evil characters win when they have a majority, and are deemed powerful enough to over-power any and all remaining factions.

How nice of you.
If this is true, there are no powerroles.
Three scum caught already then.

What?

That I''m not sold on his claim.
I''ll have to check this more before I go into more details on this.

[ZazieR]

-Sorry, but the role is called Innocent. Nowhere is there stated any allignment in the role PM. And the rules says ''Innocents''.

Rules

3. Innocents win if they destroy all Evil players. The Evil characters win when they have a majority, and are deemed powerful enough to over-power any and all remaining factions.

That looks very much like an alignment to me.

Check your own role PM. There, you''ll see that it says ''

an

innocent''. So it doesn''t seem to be an allignment, but a role.

[ZazieR]

ZazieR. You need to knock it off. Whether or not I get vigged, not everyone here is a vanilla townie like you supposedly are, and we're not going to go through what it may or may not say in everyone's individual PM, okay? Are you trying to hand the scum our power roles, not all of which can be protected, I'm sure, on a silver platter?

Nope. I''m not sold on your claim.
Anyway, what''s your flavour?

[ZazieR]

Ok, in case if it''s allignment, Stepho, why did you claim allignment?

[ZazieR]

And

@Everyone

Have you ever seen a game in which only the allignments were given and not the roles when a player got flipped? If so, could you give a link?

[ZazieR]

Just found this when I was looking for more information about Janine:

@Pyro: I'm

Jonathon

Somerset AKA the Gatekeeper. Along with Trilby, I'm one of the main guiding factors throughout the games. In the game, I'm more a prisoner of fate, having delivered myself a weapon to commit suicide so that I could basically become a ghost and travel through time to make sure that everything happened the way it was necessary so that Chzo didn't come to our world. This basically means that in the game, I arranged for a Trilby clone (debatable on whether it was the real one or not) to be taken by Chzo to save the rest of the world by keeping the God of Pain (Chzo) in the spiritual world (what happened in the last game).

In a cutaway segment, the Caretaker is revealed to be

Malcolm

Somerset, the protagonist of 7 Days a Skeptic, who murdered and impersonated his father Jonathan, and who has been convicted for the murders of all the people killed by DeFoe's spirit aboard the starship Mephistopheles. Somerset has been committed to an asylum for the criminally insane; however, he is given by the Caretaker—now revealed to have instructed Somerset to kill his father—a magical key-shaped knife once belonging to the Order's founder. This key opens a fleshy door in his cell, allowing him to descend an increasingly bloodied staircase, invoking flashbacks to the Mephistopheles where he sees the crew members deaths through John DeFoe's eyes; this is perhaps a metaphor for Somerset's suicide (his guards later find him dead in his cell). The mind and soul of an individual killed with Frehorn's Blade remain together after death, making the person's spirit immensely powerful but subject to the will of whoever wielded the Blade; Somerset has exploited a loophole in these rules by committing suicide with it and therefore remaining fully under his own control. He is transformed into a being of pure will, able to travel across time and between both realms. He enters Chzo's body to find the deteriorating clone of Trilby, captured after the explosion, who asks Somerset to kill him with Frehorn's Blade. Somerset does so and the Trilby-clone's life force is transferred to the real Trilby, who is about to die at the Clanbronwyn Hotel (this comes from the end of Trilby's Notes, where his survival was not explained). Travelling back to the complex, Somerset finally prompts the Trilby clone to set fire to the DeFoe Manor. Watching the destruction of the Optimology building, Somerset discloses in a final monologue that he is destiny's servant, and that his duty is only to make sure that time plays out as he foresees—now preparing to yet again prompt his young self to kill his father, setting forth the events occurring in 7 Days A Skeptic.

We really need Amished or a replacement for him here.

[ZazieR]

It also says Care taker, and not Gatekeeper anyweher.
So that would also be nice to get explained.

[ZazieR]

ZazieR. You need to knock it off. Whether or not I get vigged, not everyone here is a vanilla townie like you supposedly are, and we're not going to go through what it may or may not say in everyone's individual PM, okay? Are you trying to hand the scum our power roles, not all of which can be protected, I'm sure, on a silver platter?

Nope. I''m not sold on your claim.
Anyway, what''s your flavour?

I don't care whether or not you're sold on my claim, you're not going to go around fishing out what's in everyone else's PM.

Paraphrasing the rest of my flavor: I am knowledgeable about the true activities of "the Optimology organization". I wish to find anyone who would do harm to me "and fellow Innocents".

Wait, ''fellow Innocents''? Noted.

[ZazieR]

Ok, in case if it''s allignment, Stepho, why did you claim allignment?

Because it is spelled out in my role PM, and because I specifically receive alignments as well as roles in my investigations, so I imagine they're pretty important. Perhaps there are roles in this game that might not be clear as to whether they are town or scum aligned? Just a thought.

And is it really that hard to wrap your mind around the fact that there are (by all indications) Innocent roles with Innocent alignment? Not only does everything (not just my roleclaim) support this, but also, you wouldn't think twice if you were a Townie with Town alignment, no? Innocent happens to work as both a noun and an adjective here.

Which is why you asked Naomi if she was Innocent or not? Because allignments are important, not ?

I''m already looking into that.

[ZazieR]

Naomi, respond to Stepho's claim please.

[ZazieR]

Unvote

Maybe Dev isnt the best lynch today.

Wait a minute... You're buying a vanillager claim??

You see no reason to believe Deves his claim from any post on this page?

[ZazieR]

Well since we can't shoot or have confirmation we can shoot we're screwed untill mod reply. I don't like Pyro voting me for something that clearly is something that is troublesome.

Unvote:

She claimed and explained why she wasn't hunting naomi anymore. Sounds like fair claim to me don't know why zazier is hammering the innocent thing. thus far 2 other people claimed "innocent" in their VT claim. Would make sense then that her PM said something about protecting other innocents.

You're pushing very hard zazier. You even told me too just shoot and get it over with. Definitely a anti-town position you worked yourself in now.

FoS: zazier

This is why I am voting for you. You stall and stall.

Unvote, vote deves

HAMMA!
Stepho is almost confirmed. One of you guys should cop lamont.

Why is Stepho almost confirmed?

[ZazieR]

As Nyx fires the gun, he suddenly realises that loading a 12 bore into an 8 bore shotgun might not have been the best idea. Unluckily for him, the majority of the shrapnel and flames go straight in his face - and that kind of thing tends to be fatal.

The shotgun has backfired, and Nyx, an

Innocent

has died.[/i]

Naomi, paraphrase your role PM in your next post.
Claim the name, rolename and allignment that are according to you mentioned in your role PM.
Also, claim your flavour.

[ZazieR]

Unvote

Maybe Dev isnt the best lynch today.

Wait a minute... You're buying a vanillager claim??

You see no reason to believe Deves his claim from any post on this page?

Claiming vanillager helps the scum and cannot be proven. You don't back down from a vanillager claim, you LYNCH a vanillager claim.

Thoughts about post 2233?

[ZazieR]

I can claim Bozo the Vanillager Clown and make the same post...

There are two things that aren't right in that post.
If he's an Innocent, it should say an Innocent and not "you're innocent" and the 'brain' is called differently. All the other things fit with my flavor.
So the only thing is that he didn't claim an Innocent, but said "you're innocent". As it's paraphrased, it's not a point against him.

[ZazieR]

Also, Deves had claimed before.
You might want to check that, Lamont.

[ZazieR]

Ya I know claiming Vanillager doesn't help my opinion of you EVER; it makes my lynching hand itch.

Can you rephrase the first part

[ZazieR]

Anyway, in this post was his first claim.
This, together with post 2233, makes me believe that he indeed has an Innocent role PM.

[ZazieR]

take shotgun from Nyx's corpse

Might as well try

Where have you been all this time?

Waiting for someone to die so I could go through their pockets.

I'm still liking my Lamont vote. I would also vote for Dramonic.

Why Dramonic? And what's your opinion of Deves and your opinion of his claim?

[ZazieR]

EBWOP
Also, what's your opinion of Stepho's claim?

[ZazieR]

@Setael

You never responded to this. Could you do so?

Setael, you said this:

2 reasons I'm not getting behind the Stepho wagon:

1- the presence of a counter wagon that might succeed actually makes me feel better about vigging dev. I would expect scum to fight it, so if it was too easy I'd be worried. Elmo we know is town but if dev flips scum zaz, pyro and xtoxm will need to be looked at. I think scum would feel comfortable about this since dev's wagon derails MY wagon so if they're accused they can point to my wagon as a sort of alibi.

2- steph's post that she thinks I'm town at a crucial point. Scum would have had no reason not to weigh in against me at that point and she wouldn't have been suspect when I flipped town. Basically, same reason I changed my mind about Lamont.

But at the same time, you think that Stepho could be scumbuddies with Deves.
So what you''re saying in this quote is basically that those vig-voting Stepho might contain scum that don''t want Deves to get vigged. Combined with that you think Stepho might be a scumbuddy from Deves, you''re thinking that there is possibly scum on the vig-wagon from Stepho-scum in order to not get Deves-scum vigged.
If this is true, how does this make sense?
And if I misunderstood your position, please explain.

Also, I already said this too but dev's vig will reveal a lot about both those who moved from mw to dev and those who moved from dev to steph

Who''s MW?
And the second thing is also something we will learn if Stepho gets vigged, is it not?

Setael, still this.

[ZazieR]

Next time, we should vote on who should pick up the item. That's my opinion of it.

[ZazieR]

"Waiting for someone to die so I could go through their pockets."

did ANYONE note that?

Yeah, but I don't see why it's scummy.

[ZazieR]

Also,

Setael

In my opinion, only scum would push for a Stepho vig right now. Yes, there's a chance he's lying. Only scum know for sure if he is or not. However, if he's telling the truth and we vig him we have lost a key power role. No townie will be sure enough he is lying to push his vig through.

FOS: zazier and xtoxm

Please explain why you didn't FoS when Naomi got voted for lying about her claim, but did FoS when me and Tox are saying that Stepho is lying?

[ZazieR]

@Stepho

For the love of God...

I am Janine. I am an investigative reporter, and am Innocent.

I can check one player each night, and learn his or her role and alignment.

I investigated Naomi last night. Her roleclaim was legitimate. She is Trilby.

Please protect me tonight.

So what is Naomi's role? And why didn't you claim it in this post?
Because I'd expect that your role would be 'investigative reporter' if your claim is true. So please explain.

[ZazieR]

And why did nobody respond to this post?

[ZazieR]

@Stepho

For the love of God...

I am Janine. I am an investigative reporter, and am Innocent.

I can check one player each night, and learn his or her role and alignment.

I investigated Naomi last night. Her roleclaim was legitimate. She is Trilby.

Please protect me tonight.

So what is Naomi's role? And why didn't you claim it in this post?
Because I'd expect that your role would be 'investigative reporter' if your claim is true. So please explain.

Hi Stepho

[ZazieR]

Dev came about as close to quoting the Town role pm as he could without getting modkilled. Unless scum were given copies of it (and why the mod would do that rather than just quote the town role pm in the rules is beyond me) then he is town.

While I certainly wasn't a fan of everyone starting to claim vanilla...is there anyone else who has *already* claimed vanilla who can confirm this?

Devestation's statement was believeable, but fairly generic.

Two players have already pointed out that it matches.
Either three scum outed themselves, scum know the Innocent PM or it matches.
The first is already not true. Which leaves 2 and 3. I''m leaning towards the third.

[ZazieR]

@Stepho

For the love of God...

I am Janine. I am an investigative reporter, and am Innocent.

I can check one player each night, and learn his or her role and alignment.

I investigated Naomi last night. Her roleclaim was legitimate. She is Trilby.

Please protect me tonight.

So what is Naomi's role? And why didn't you claim it in this post?
Because I'd expect that your role would be 'investigative reporter' if your claim is true. So please explain.

Hi Stepho

Hi! I already answered that.

So you''re saying that the results you''ve gotten was that she''s Trilby and Innocent? So in other words, you''re saying that Trilby is her role?

[ZazieR]

Don''t call me dear *glare*
You''ll regret it if you do it one more time.

So in other words, you''re saying that Trilby is her role?

Just answer with yes or no as punishment for calling me dear *glare*

[ZazieR]

Also, you didn''t answer why you didn''t claim back then that extra part.

[ZazieR]

She has posted after you''ve claimed, yet didn''t address it.

[ZazieR]

Mod, does this game only show allignment when somebody flips?

[ZazieR]

Naomi

, please respond to Stepho''s claim.

Elmo

, if possible, could you a full role PM claim? You''re one of the two reasons as of now why I''m not voting him.

[ZazieR]

MOD: Role is not revealed upon death. Only alignment. Confirm, deny or confirm opposite?

Sure ask the same thing I just asked one page ago...

[ZazieR]

Also, agreed with Tox about Stepho.
Disagreed on Rock. I prefer him over Dramonic.

[ZazieR]

Role is revealed. "Innocent" means Vanilla.

Checking to be sure, so that we know this for sure later on.

[ZazieR]

I doubt anyone would host a pure vanilla theme game.

Past ages Mafia, a large theme.

[ZazieR]

I would like Naomi and Amished's replacement to say whether they are told they're Innocent.

This. Yet, Naomi still needs to respond to Stepho''s claim as well.
And Stepho was the only one who included it in his claim.

[ZazieR]

Stepho should be the first to say it.

If it''s stated that he''s Innocent? He already claimed that.

[ZazieR]

Mod

- I''ll probably be V/LA this weekend. Some stuff came up...
Don''t really want to give more details.
I''ll try to post if I can put my thoughts towards it.

[ZazieR]

I'm fairly positive that Stepho is fake-claiming. From the rules:

2b. During the night,

Good

and Evil specials have 3 days in real-time to PM me with their actions and targets, or simply to confirm that they are not using their ability. After three days, anyone who has not PM'd is considered to have chosen not to act, and the game continues.

From Post 2370, in which the mod answers my question:

This game does not only show alignment. To clarify - in this game,

an Innocent

is someone entirely uninvolved in the struggle between any

Good faction/s

and any Evil faction/s, and

should be considered the equivalent of a Vanillager

. Alignments are denoted by coloration.

[ZazieR]

Also, that plus what Amished said earlier makes me worried we have a Cult mechanic in this game.

Can you elaborate?

[ZazieR]

So, can we lynch scum yet?

Unvote Vote Steph

Please explain this. This appears to be an irresponsible vote with only 5 days left, but when you factor in that he is a claimed town PR it becomes actually scummy...

Right now, it's less than 3 days.
Also, it's a good vote.

[ZazieR]

I really don't know what this entails or how I can usefully do this without being modkilled. I will say that I find this

I wish to find anyone who would do harm to me "

and fellow Innocents

".

very interesting, on reflection.

This is looking worse and worse for Stepho...

Finally this gets noted

[ZazieR]

So, can we lynch scum yet?

Unvote Vote Steph

Please explain this. This appears to be an irresponsible vote with only 5 days left, but when you factor in that he is a claimed town PR it becomes actually scummy...

Right now, it's less than 3 days.
Also, it's a good vote.

No the deadline is July 8th.

Noon GMT.
It's almost 5 PM GMT+2 --> 3 PM GMT
So a bit less than 4 days Mod said something different a moment ago.

[ZazieR]

Like I said, I'm frazzled, but I don't really see how Stepho is obvscum although that may well simply be me missing it at this point. Please understand that Innocent being a role does not mean it is not also an alignment, and that if Innocent is not an alignment we have no power roles and e.g. Amished should be next in line for the chop. And that doesn't sound right to me, quite possibly the majority of the claims are scum but I seriously doubt all of them are. I know I'll kick myself if Stepho is scum (and this Innocent business has zero capability to clear him) but I'm not 100% putting my vote there right now.

Naomi is also still here as claimed powerrole.
Also, as I have already pointed out, Amished claimed a player from the game. However, after having checked the wiki, the name is wrong due to Amished's claimed flavour. He claimed the father, while the claimed flavour fits the son.