Phables: Death Note Mafia (Game Over)

[ZazieR]

Now that you mention it... Seriously, why would you post a lot of times in a row, when you notice lots of people complaining on catching up. Just don't mention every tidbit that pops up. That said, your posts and the questions you ask/remarks you make seem genuine, you're not too sure which could point out you're town. On the other side you're defending ZEE, and I have him as my main suspect at the moment.

Because I have noticed that when I post multiple posts after each other, that they are better to understand and that players will look more closely at those, than the large posts I used to do.
Also, I don't see how you get the impression that I'm defending ZEEnon as he's one of my top suspicions.

I agree that your way of posting is a lot easier to cope with than someone posting a whole essay in just one post and using way too many quotes. But still when I see someone posting 4 or even more times in a row, I do wonder if all of it is really relevant, and maybe you should focus on one or two points you find important.

As for defending ZEEnon, I thought it was you who said ZEEnon response to Mastin was quite natural. I may have confused you with someone else. Don't have much time now, hopefully I can check it later today.

No, that wasn't me. My suspicions against him started due to his response towards Mastin as his behaviour was totally different in Open 145, in which he was town and Mastin scum.

[ZazieR]

Next (and this is where you will see me start snapping soon) - People are ignoring what I have to say on myk. While this wouldnt get to me too much normally, its the people who wont shut up. This means my case gets drowned out, and people concentrate on others instead of who I want people looking at. Yes its a "me me me" thing, but when I get confident I get confident.

Seriously, just look at 952. Myk suspected Mastin of being third party, infact he was convinced of it. However he wouldnt vote him since first he was not sure that he had a note, and later that he claimed not to. So instead of voting third party (which hint hint does NOT share town win con), which theme sure suggests has a note, which he thinks doesnt have a note because WIFOM, how is he not dead? The only faction that for sure would want death notes in the game is pro-kira. Not lynching third party, even if all it does is remove a note from a game, is the right move.

I haven't ignored it.
However, I'm glad you pointed your case out. As I already said, I found this little gem in Magnus's posts:

What makes you suspect lamount?

What makes you suspect Lamount more than me?

Odd, even if a player dislikes my playstyle due to their own, I'd think that if it's similar, they'd only begin to like it. (Unless they're of an opposite alignment)

1: Death Note-->Scum.

So why are you not voting me?

2: Suspicions-->Accusations of a person being scum. This seems hypocritical with your earlier line of not knowing who the scum are at this point in time.

I do happen to have an idea. I just don't have my normal level of conviction yet. If you didn't respond to the bits of my post rather than the post as a whole, you'd understand that.

I suspect you are a shinigami who has a death note. This is because you talked about losing death notes being detrimental to the shinigami win condition, which I don't think you'd have thought that upon reading those rules.
I suspect lamont of being scum.

Neutral < scum
therefore I'm voting the scum one.

I'm refusing to give my reasons until I hear what lamont has to say about why he thinks I'm voting him. I theorize the reason he was extremely vague was because he didn't want to point out something different to give me additional evidence.

So you ignored the times he posted this, when I pointed it out and when I stated my case against Magnus? That's interesting to see.

[ZazieR]

Agreed on the first paragraph

[ZazieR]

On Myko:
-His thoughts of Mastin. He first said that Mastin seemed town in his first post. However, he later claims that he has always believed that Mastin was a shinigami without a Death Note.
-The obv scumslip Spolium had made, while Magnus did the same at the start, though only the scumclip of Spolium got pointed out. Even after quoting Magnus post, he didn't point this out.
-Spolium got immediatly voted after this slip. But Myko didn't vote Magnus right after and only voted Magnus because I kept asking why he didn't.
-Regarding the above, he voted Magnus with these words:

but if it makes you happy

: unvote vote Magnus, then I'll unvote in case needed tonight.

Before this, there was the moment in which he unvoted Magnus. These words were used:

But if it makes you happy

, I could unvote.

Bolded what I mean.
-According to him, the vig would give us information. When he said this, he mentioned a lot around of the Mastin wagon and case. Yet, he hasn't even said anything of it afterwards, except when Lamont brings Kise up.
-Magnus in one of his posts, criticises the Kise-wagon. The following post is from Myko, and only states that Magnus scored town points. Yet, he didn't address Magnus's points against the Kise-wagon, while being one of the voters.

[ZazieR]

EBWOP
I'll post down my ZEEnon case when I get back

[ZazieR]

On ZEEnon:
-No Mastin vote, while he did vote him in Open 145. His reason was that Mastin didn't joke in this game about his claim, while he did so in the other game. However, looking at his first post in this game, he clearly joked about being scum. Yet, no vote.
-Another reason according to ZEEnon why he didn't vote, was because Kai pointed out that Mastin had done this before. However, the time between the posts from Kai and ZEE (as already pointed out) shows that this is very likely a lie, and the second quote he gives from Kai in which Kai states Mastin has done this before is after ZEEnon could have voted Mastin.
ZEEnon als says that nobody had stated in Open 145 that Mastin has done this before, which is not true.
-He claimed to have believed Mastin's shinigami claim. Yet, he didn't vote him.
-Later, Mastin states that he joked about being a shinigami. Again a joke, but once again no vote from ZEEnon.
-His switch from thinking that Mastin was a shinigami to town after Mastin got shot.

[ZazieR]

@Llama

See my case against ZEE. Another player who decided not to vote against a shinigami. Three players, yet you have only noted it from one player.
I want to hear your opinions from ZEE and Magnus.

[ZazieR]

@Llama

See my case against ZEE. Another player who decided not to vote against a shinigami. Three players, yet you have only noted it from one player.
I want to hear your opinions from ZEE and Magnus.

If a person doesn't buddy up to a town, and doesn't vote him, what is the big problem then? I don't yet know why zee didn't vote, but I know from my self I had a reason.

and there was no scum-reason not to vote. So all you say is: I think you had to vote, and because you didn't you are scum. I don't think that is a good reasoning, even when you say your argument isn't heard by most people...

Let Llama respond first. After that, I'll say why I find this scummy.
However, it's duly noted that you respond to my post about Llama before mentioning my post against you, and not saying this when I mentioned it in your case.

[ZazieR]

In this game, it is possible to obtain a Death Note in several ways. If a player possessing a Death Note is lynched, a random member of the lynch mob receives the Death Note. If a player possessing a Death Note is killed, the killer (if there are multiple killers, one is chosen at random) receives the Death Note.

On ZEEnon:
-No Mastin vote, while he did vote him in Open 145. His reason was that Mastin didn't joke in this game about his claim, while he did so in the other game. However, looking at his first post in this game, he clearly joked about being scum. Yet, no vote.
-Another reason according to ZEEnon why he didn't vote, was because Kai pointed out that Mastin had done this before. However, the time between the posts from Kai and ZEE (as already pointed out) shows that this is very likely a lie, and the second quote he gives from Kai in which Kai states Mastin has done this before is after ZEEnon could have voted Mastin.
ZEEnon als says that nobody had stated in Open 145 that Mastin has done this before, which is not true.
-He claimed to have believed Mastin's shinigami claim. Yet, he didn't vote him.
-Later, Mastin states that he joked about being a shinigami. Again a joke, but once again no vote from ZEEnon.
-His switch from thinking that Mastin was a shinigami to town after Mastin got shot.

Ok, so you're saying

scum would rather have a shinigami be NK'ed by the scum than lynched during the day

?

That is an excellent scum tell.

That as it gives scum definitly the Death Note if their victim has one.
And he wasn't working towards the town wincon.

[ZazieR]

@Llama

See my case against ZEE. Another player who decided not to vote against a shinigami. Three players, yet you have only noted it from one player.
I want to hear your opinions from ZEE and Magnus.

I dont think zee ever said "I am convinced mastin is shin with/without a note". I also had a gut town read on him fairly early, and nothing has challenged that yet for me.

MO seemed more convinced of Mastin telling the truth, which is a big point against him. I just missed that the first time through. This game is moving really fast for me and when I have about five hours a day from when I get back from work to when I go to sleep, its hard to keep up.

Either way I think myk has been much more blatant in the whole "Mastin is third party" debacle, so still like his lynch today.

So, you don't think this should be counted against ZEE?
Be right back to this post further.

[ZazieR]

@Llama

See my case against ZEE. Another player who decided not to vote against a shinigami. Three players, yet you have only noted it from one player.
I want to hear your opinions from ZEE and Magnus.

I dont think zee ever said "I am convinced mastin is shin with/without a note". I also had a gut town read on him fairly early, and nothing has challenged that yet for me.

MO seemed more convinced of Mastin telling the truth, which is a big point against him. I just missed that the first time through. This game is moving really fast for me and when I have about five hours a day from when I get back from work to when I go to sleep, its hard to keep up.

Either way I think myk has been much more blatant in the whole "Mastin is third party" debacle, so still like his lynch today.

So, you don't think this should be counted against ZEE?
Be right back to this post further.

he seemed to debate it for a few post but decided against it from what I see. If I am completely missing something though just quote it for me

No, I find it just strange that it seems you don't have this against ZEEnon, while you're discussing this with Myko a lot, and even said this:

Well you are missing the fact that shin are THIRD PARTY. And you know know what you should do to third party? You lynch third party. You can never count on them playing to your win condition since they do not share it. They may play with town in an attempt to not be lynched, but if they have a win chance by working with scum do you really think they arent going to take it?

[ZazieR]

Vote Zeenon

Good vote, but why are you voting him?

[ZazieR]

ZazieR, me voting him in Open 145 was just a joke because he claimed scum.
I interpreted his self vote in that game as a joke, and I voted him to fuel it.
His

reaction

to my vote was the problem.
He freaked out, posted a wall-of-text that I didn't bother to read, and then disappeared.

I have a question. Would this be a proper explanation of a difference between this game and Open 145?

No, because he claims that he voted Mastin in Open 145, because Mastin claimed scum and it seemed like a joke. Yet, Mastin also claimed scum in this game in a jokey way as shown in his first post, but ZEEnon didn't vote him for that.
So, there was no difference to me.
Also, to make it more clear, ZEEnon was the one who disappeared after Mastin's wall-o text, not Mastin.

Case is there, based upon posts you've already made, so you don't have to worry that there's no case .

Your case exists entirely of my varying reaction to Mastin's self-vote.
I already explained that Kairyuu alluded to the fact that this is a regular habit of Mastin's,
while in Polygamist Mafia nobody mentioned that. You can go see for yourself whether or not that is the truth.

Also, does this help or actually hurt his defense?

It hurts his defence.
He stated in a different post that he wasn't going to post. He wanted to comment on what he saw. Which means, he wasn't planning to vote Mastin. And he took his Mastin's scum claim serious as he even asked him questions about it. Yet, his reason for not voting Mastin is that Kai stated that Mastin does this all the time. I don't see why he would take Mastin's claim seriously, if he believed Kai with his statement. So I see here something in contrast.
Oh, and as already said by me, it was stated in Open 145 that Mastin does this all the time.

[ZazieR]

I read this, and I didn't react. OMG how scummy...

On Myko:
-His thoughts of Mastin. He first said that Mastin seemed town in his first post. However, he later claims that he has always believed that Mastin was a shinigami without a Death Note.

same point, couldn't see Mastin as scum doing this. Talked about this a lot, so I reacted

-The obv scumslip Spolium had made, while Magnus did the same at the start, though only the scumclip of Spolium got pointed out. Even after quoting Magnus post, he didn't point this out.

I miss things, I try to keep up, but I make more mistakes.

-Spolium got immediatly voted after this slip. But Myko didn't vote Magnus right after and only voted Magnus because I kept asking why he didn't.

because you were absolutely pushing me into it, while I knew I had unvoted him one time

-Regarding the above, he voted Magnus with these words:

but if it makes you happy

: unvote vote Magnus, then I'll unvote in case needed tonight.

Before this, there was the moment in which he unvoted Magnus. These words were used:

But if it makes you happy

, I could unvote.

Bolded what I mean.

both times I feel I was forced out of what I wanted, once by llama, once by you

-According to him, the vig would give us information. When he said this, he mentioned a lot around of the Mastin wagon and case. Yet, he hasn't even said anything of it afterwards, except when Lamont brings Kise up.

if I don't say anything about it, doesn't mean it isn't there. what a point...

-Magnus in one of his posts, criticises the Kise-wagon. The following post is from Myko, and only states that Magnus scored town points. Yet, he didn't address Magnus's points against the Kise-wagon, while being one of the voters.

already explained, it was about the explanation of the rules. And why would you bring this up again?

here have your reaction. Half of the points were already answered/defended. But I guess some people read the thread not that precise.

This, Myko

1. The difference is that a town player will at least help to achieve our win condition if you're town, while this isn't the case for a shinigami. Think about it, the shinigami have once gotten a Death Note. Do you think they will help sooner those who want to destroy them, or those who want to keep them?
Also, you stated in your second post that he seemed town. Yet, after that post you are saying that you are thinking what his shinigami claim means.
Question: What do you think the win conditions will be from the shinigami's Ryuk, Rem and Shidoh? (yes, I know the names now )

2. Well, you missed ZEEnon apparently as well. And even when you did a re-read, you only asked why he tried to protect a player who he sees as a shinigami. Only in the case of Spolium, it was an obv scumslip.
In the case of Magnus it was even worse as you couldn't find it even after I quoted the post of him. And I just saw that you missed this post of Magnus during your re-read of the first few pages as well.

3. You are really wondering why I asked why you didn't vote Magnus for a reason that was a scumslip for Spolium that couldn't get more obvious?

4. Voting based upon players questioning why you aren't voting a player in order to make those players 'happy', means that you are paying attention what others think of you and that you don't want to be pressured.

5. Well, did you look at the Mastin wagon and what players thought about Mastin after he got killed?

6. Magnus said in that post that the Kise case looks fake. As one of the players who were voting against Kise for that reason, you didn't say anything about it, while you believed that that case wasn't fake. Magnus even added that scum were taken advantage of the Mastin-kill. So why did you not give reasons why the Kise case wasn't fake?
Also, actually looking at it, you gave Magnus town-points for that post. A post in which he calls you indirectly scum taken advantage. Thinking about this, it reminded me of the post in which Llama states that it gave him the willies that you called him town while he was attacking you, so I have to search for the post in which you stated this.

here have your reaction. Half of the points were already answered/defended. But I guess some people read the thread not that precise.

Says the one who missed that ZEEnon and Magnus did the same thing you accused Spolium off?

[ZazieR]

Ok so then we'vbe established that for some reason he has

purposely

not voted Mastin here and his excuses for not doing so are very poor and false.

This obviuosly looks bad, but what does it actually mean?

The statement from him, "

I see why you are doing it and I'll trust your judgement even though I may not agree with it

" needs to be explained.

@Zee:

Please explain exactly what you meant by that statement.

I think he's scum for it. The only reason why I'm not voting him, is because I'm also suspicious of Myko and Magnus. Both Myko and ZEEnon haven't done anything to lessen my suspicions.
As for

Magnus

, I'd like to see the links of all your completed games. There's one point bothering me a lot, which is why I've kept my vote on him, so I want to check if it's valid or not.

[ZazieR]

6. Magnus said in that post that the Kise case looks fake. As one of the players who were voting against Kise for that reason, you didn't say anything about it, while you believed that that case wasn't fake. Magnus even added that scum were taken advantage of the Mastin-kill. So why did you not give reasons why the Kise case wasn't fake?

Also, actually looking at it, you gave Magnus town-points for that post. A post in which he calls you indirectly scum taken advantage. Thinking about this, it reminded me of the post in which Llama states that it gave him the willies that you called him town while he was attacking you, so I have to search for the post in which you stated this.

Disregard the first part >.<
Due to Kise's post in which he adds something to my points I went back to said post in which he gave Magnus town points.
I thought it was a bad post as he didn't state in that post why he supported the Kise wagon (which is why I brought it up again), but it seemed that it was his last post of that day >.<
His next post does state why he supports the Kise wagon, so the first part isn't valid. Second part is still valid though.

[ZazieR]

@Benmage
You didn't believe Zwet's claim, and you voted Zwet after ABR posted this which you even quoted in your post in which you vote Zwet:

Vote: Zwet

No surprises here. I think we will be doing the scum a huge disfavor by lynching zwet no matter what his alignment.

Yet, Zwet has now given some answers regarding his claim, and it has been pointed out that the claim fits the flavour.
So what do you think of his claim now?
And can you explain why ABR's post resulted in your vote? (if it didn't, what did?)

[ZazieR]

It is nice people, but I'm not going to vote magnus. He is more likely town then other people. More active,

positive way of thinking

. Zee, and Seraphim, Phily and Benmage, were much worse.

Can you explain what you mean with the bolded?
Also, why aren't you voting one of the four you mention above as much worse, and why are they much worse?

[ZazieR]

Btw, unless something more convincing comes up besides the Myk wagon, I really think we should force ABR to post more. I think his Jester comment looks really suspicious towards a possible shinigami and he is actively lurking; it appears he is following along but only infrequently posting very short posts.

FoS ABR

What about a ZEEnon or Magnus wagon?
Also, looking at your posts, you haven't addressed the Myko case at all. So what's your opinion of it?

[ZazieR]

I am not posting any more until we lynch zwet.

So you rather not play with Zwet, than play with me ?
But... I want my Dominating ABR

[ZazieR]

@Kise:

1 hide behind zaz, sure... you say it is ingnoring, I say it is not seeing, and wanting to do things good afterward.
2.because esspecially zaz wouldn't take it with a reasonining that would take less then 5 min to make. I wanted to reread, something that wasn't offered, as zazie knew.

So which is it? Did you not see it, or did you want to wait to do good things afterwards?
And no, you misunderstood. Sure you may reread, I only wanted to hear why you didn't vote Magnus when you voted Spolium for the same reason as it was such a scumslip that it couldn't get more obvious.

[ZazieR]

Hey, you flaked last time in a newbe game you replaced in.

So I show that I hope you stick around, and this is what I get...
If you have any issues with me or what I did, PM me, instead of stating it in a game.

[ZazieR]

Its not like I really thought he was a jester,

I just didn't want Mastin to be killed by town forces

. The role isn't relevant anymore because no one has since claimed scum.

Uhm, what? Explain the bolded.

[ZazieR]

Please tell me I'm not getting lynched.

Are you scared to be lynched?
I don't see why you should be as your claim fits Naomi Penber, who seems more likely to be anti-kira than something else, but I find it suspicious when players are scared of their lynch.

I'm not scared, but simply annoyed. Also, I thought scum couldn't be lynched in the first place...

Pro-Kira can be lynched and will die. Shinigami can also be lynched, in which they'll lose their Death Note if they have one, but will not die.
Though I'm questioning your claim a little bit now.

[ZazieR]

You probably also saw that I asked Kai why he thinks you're obv-town, not you. So let him answer.

Dunno if I responded to this, but the reason was that I could follow his logic and he seemed to make quite a bit of sense. That, combined with the fact that his motivations struck me as strongly pro-town, meant that I was confident in my read of him. Seems I was right though, just as I was right about zwet/hewitt, and Phily/Jazz in Polygamist.

(You're still a genius btw).

No, you hadn't responded about that yet.
And the reason why I asked was because it reminded me of the 'WIFOM' I did in Open 145. I'd like to hear the difference between what I did in Open 145 and what Mastin did here.
Also, I've commented on that genius bit in that game. So the same goes for you, contact me through PM (though ABR will probably say that you shouldn't >.<), because it's not true as I already stated in that game.

[ZazieR]

The following people said we should not vote Mastin b/c it is useless or some derivation thereof:

Budja -- "its a waste if he's unkillable"
ABR -- "he's prob jester lets vote elsewhere"
Kise -- "doesn't like random note drop if he's lynched"

Those are three that I have in my notes. I feel I could find more if I looked harder...

You forgot me. I didn't want to lynch Mastin because I didn't think he was scum.

Yes, as I said my notes are not perfect and I knew it. I have noticed you've received some flak from a few people and I didn't understand why. For the same reason you thought Mastin was town, he needed to be gone.

You also forgot ZEEnon

[ZazieR]

1) English is not Myk's first language. I think this makes his points look a little weaker than they normally would be; his defenses have less of an impact, his attacks are less convincing.

YES!!! So it's not my fault actually that I can't convince anybody. That's good to hear

[ZazieR]

1) English is not Myk's first language. I think this makes his points look a little weaker than they normally would be; his defenses have less of an impact, his attacks are less convincing.

2) My read on him is as someone who is sincere but inexperienced. I don't get any malicious intent from his inconsistencies.

That is his standard scum play from what I've seen, he plays a lot less like that as town. I've played with him in two games where he's been scum (one where he was scum with me) and one where he was town and I've seen another game where he was scum. I probably have a preponderance of scum data for him but I still get a somewhat scummy vibe from the way he's played this game.

Can you give me a link of one of his town games? If he plays better I will see it very easily...

I know two town games of his by heart:
Drawn Together
South Park

[ZazieR]

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.
They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

^^Why you forgot him

[ZazieR]

Scum game 1

Scum game 2

Two scum games from Myko.

[ZazieR]

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.
They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

^^Why you forgot him

Ok so Zee is either:

A) Making a genuine mistake early in the game

OR

B) Deliberately trying to obfuscate on how notes work

I think B is

FAIL

. Wouldn't it be too obvious?

What arguments do you have for B?

I don't understand what you mean with B). Could you rephrase it?

[ZazieR]

I'll look at all the other posts soon, but anyway, Mastin can't replace back in. We have a claim which is based upon his rolename. So if he would replace back in, we would have gotten information which we shouldn't have.
Or if he gets to be Shingami or pro-Kira when he replaces in, he can lie about it if needed.
But the mod has already responded, so it's not that important anymore.

Votecount
mykonian - 5 (LlamaFluff,

cateraction

, Spolium, ortolan, Kise)
zwetschenwasser - 3 (populartajo, Albert B. Rampage, Benmage)
ZEEnon - 3 (WeyounsLastClone, PhilyEc, mykonian)
Gorrad - 2 (Kmd4390, MrBuddyLee)
Lamont_Cranston - 2 (magnus_orion, Kairyuu)
magnus_orion - 1 (

ZazieR

)
Kairyuu - 1 (Lamont_Cranston)
Not voting: zwetschenwasser, Jebus, Gorrad,

semioldguy

, Seraphim, Stephoscope, ZEEnon, Starbuck

There's nothing to worry about. Eraldo Coil is also me.

With 25 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[ZazieR]

I've completely forgotten who our mod actually is...

Gelus: Phate, Light-kun and Farside if I'm correct.

[ZazieR]

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.
They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

^^Why you forgot him

Ok so Zee is either:

A) Making a genuine mistake early in the game

OR

B) Deliberately trying to obfuscate on how notes work

I think B is

FAIL

. Wouldn't it be too obvious?

What arguments do you have for B?

I don't understand what you mean with B). Could you rephrase it?

Well he is obviously wrong when he says we shouldn't lynch Mastin because he is a shingami. There is a very good chance that he would have a death note.

So the question is, why doesn't Zee take this into account?

Its either

A)

he is just genuinely mistaken or

B)

he's trying to lead the town away from doing the right thing (lynching Mastin) so the scum can kill him and get the note.

My point on B is that wouldn't it be too obvious that is what he is doing?

Hmmm, well now that I think about it...

I can see where he could do this as scum and I really don't buy A. I do see your case here now.

I am anxious to here more from Zee on this...

A is not possible. ZEE knew that shinigami can''t be lynched and can''t be killed. This is stated in the rules. In that same rule, it''s mentioned that if a shinigami gets lynched or killed that he will lose his Death Note if he has one.

[ZazieR]

@Benmage
You didn't believe Zwet's claim, and you voted Zwet after ABR posted this which you even quoted in your post in which you vote Zwet:

Vote: Zwet

No surprises here. I think we will be doing the scum a huge disfavor by lynching zwet no matter what his alignment.

Yet, Zwet has now given some answers regarding his claim, and it has been pointed out that the claim fits the flavour.
So what do you think of his claim now?
And can you explain why ABR's post resulted in your vote? (if it didn't, what did?)

I still disbelieve the claim, because I don’t see the logic behind making the initial claim. It was unnecessary imo.

Although I don’t share the same animosity against zwet that ABR does, zwet isn’t exactly the best player in my book(and I know I can’t say much with my minimal input into this game, but this is how I feel)

So yeah, those two reasons are why I voted.

Does the bolded make him more likely to be scum? If so, why?

[ZazieR]

3)

I think he will flip town.

I have no idea what he'll flip.

Why did you ''fix'' this part?

[ZazieR]

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.
They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

^^Why you forgot him

Unless you really can put more backing that he belived that he was what he claimed, and played as such, this isnt scummy. If anything this is more of an IIOA post. LC is misinterpreting it pretty badly. To me this is the same as saying 'zwet claims to be that guys wife'.

If he said "Mastin claims to be shin and I believe it", we would be having a different discussion. I do not see anything that suggests this though.

If ZEE never explains what he meant, I want to hear it from you what you think he meant. As I''m reading here and from the responses he has given that he believed Mastin''s claim.

[ZazieR]

Here's the links requested from me:
viewtopic.php?t=10914&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0
viewtopic.php?t=10122&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0
viewtopic.php?t=10115&start=0&postdays= ... highlight=
viewtopic.php?t=10164
viewtopic.php?t=9835&start=0&postdays=0 ... highlight=

(Kai's meta on me comes from offline play.)

Thanks, will get to them asap.

Votecount
mykonian - 6 (LlamaFluff,

cateraction

, Spolium, ortolan, Kise, populartajo)
Lamont_Cranston - 5 (magnus_orion, Kairyuu, Albert B. Rampage, Gorrad, MrBuddyLee)
ZEEnon - 5 (WeyounsLastClone, PhilyEc, mykonian, Stephoscope, Lamont_Cranston)
Gorrad - 2 (Kmd4390, Starbuck)
zwetschenwasser - 1 (Benmage)
magnus_orion - 1 (

ZazieR

)
Jebus - 1 (zwetschenwasser)
Not voting: Jebus,

semioldguy

, Seraphim, ZEEnon

Then do Shinigami only eat apples?

With 25 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[ZazieR]

Was Mastin town or maf' in 145?

Scum. But why did you wanna know?

And if english isn't Myk's 1st language, then how does he know when to use big words like 'subjective'???

Because there are two types of Dutchies. Those who use the same words over and over again as they don''t know a different word for it (me) and those who have a large English vocabulary (Myko)

[ZazieR]

I propose something. We have already some decent suspects. What about if we concentrate discussion in these suspects and finally decide a vote and start railing discussion/reactions and such.

I really hope that you''re not saying that we should only concentrate on those players, because if that''s the case, I''m so against it.
So explain what you''re saying here.

[ZazieR]

Lurkers: Jebus, MBL, Seraph, Stepho
Scummy: Zee, Gorrad, ABR, Kai

I'm down with any of the above 8 until further notice.

I''m against any lynches that are based upon that player being a lurker. Especially in this set-up, due to the rule of Death Note conveyance.

[ZazieR]

He has gone on a silence strike in honor of my life. You're not going to get anything out of him for the time being.

Always have hope when I am present

[ZazieR]

Well, Mastin claimed scum. Is this behavior not that of one who wishes to be strung up?

Even though he claimed scum, I didn't believe him to be scum, because scum wouldn't claim scum. Therefore, I didn't want anyone to lynch him.

So instead of saying that you think he''s town for this and that reason, you state that he''s a jester? Why?

[ZazieR]

Screw it. If you guys are going to post anyway, Lamont, I demand you tell me why you were ignoring entire sections ofmy posts against you, and why you refuse to acknowledge that you did. You yourself agreed ignoring people was a scumtell, correct?

Lamont, what have you to say about this?

[ZazieR]

We're lynching Lamont. That will happen. He's scummy as fuck, and is only suspecting me because I accused him of being scum, called Mastin town, and was right.

Also, note how he completely ignored my entire first catch-up post, when a large chunk of it was directed at him. Scummy McScumscum needs to die, and quickly too.

Add this as well to the above post.

Lamont

, what do you have to say?

[ZazieR]

Can you link to those posts so that I can look at them when I get back home?

[ZazieR]

I propose something. We have already some decent suspects. What about if we concentrate discussion in these suspects and finally decide a vote and start railing discussion/reactions and such.

I really hope that you''re not saying that we should only concentrate on those players, because if that''s the case, I''m so against it.
So explain what you''re saying here.

Why are you so against it?

I hate it when conversations starts going in one million tangents and we can get a consensus on at least a explicit point.

Trust me, in posterior stages of the game, if we concentrate discussion in explicit points, we'll know every player reaction/opinion to them.

At this point everyone is going wherever they like and I dont even know, for example, what does everyone think of myko.

See my point?

Then ask what their opinions are of specific players, but don''t say that we should only focus on those players. Because if we''ll only focus on specific players, we''ll have to look back during later days.
Let''s just say that during day 6, there will be 8 players left. Of those, only 2 of them got more attention than the others due to this approach. But at a point like this, it''s important that you also have information about the remaining 6 players. Due to your appraoch, players will have to look back. And I don''t think many want to look back if this game has 80+ posts.
That''s why I''m against, and rather have that you ask each player what their opinion is of a specific player. As long as we don''t focus all of our attention of a few specific players.

[ZazieR]

I say that they both are buddies in RL, they have decided they want to lynch me and regardless of what I say it will be scummy. They will deny it but it is true.

I agree with Kai and Magnus on this quote.

[ZazieR]

Does the bolded make him more likely to be scum? If so, why?

YES omg you’re a genius you’ve done it! You’ve found the scum!

Lurkers: Jebus, MBL, Seraph, Stepho
Scummy: Zee, Gorrad, ABR, Kai

I'm down with any of the above 8 until further notice.

I''m against any lynches that are based upon that player being a lurker. Especially in this set-up, due to the rule of Death Note conveyance.

Why, are you worried it'll end up on a lurker? Because than we could just lynch that lurker?

Still no explanation why it would make him more likely to be scum. So do that.

As why I don''t agree with a lurker lynch, it''s because it''s an easy lynch. Both scum and town get rid of someone useless, but the scum get also an free lynch and therefore free NK''s if the lurker is town.
In this case it''s even worse due to the Death Note conveyance. Both scum and town can enter this wagon with easyness as it would be normal to lynch this player. This gives scum just an excuse to get a chance to receive a Death Note.

[ZazieR]

Look its obvious to anyone who examines there posts that they are working in concert, they have made up their mind and its a personal thing with them. I accept that.

Once again, just to be clear, I'm not saying they are working together outside the game but

inside

they know each other as friends and are working on concert.

I am more than willing to entertain cases/arguments from anyone else that has questions about my play.

I disagree.

[ZazieR]

Lamont, what do you think of ignoring players?

[ZazieR]

You cannot expect to get away with holding yourself to a different set of scumtells than those you apply to others.

I do this..because i know i'm innocent so acting scummy means shit. But others who act scummy, well i don't know their allegiance so its a scum tell unfair aint it ...

How serious is this?

[ZazieR]

@Gorrad
You already stated suspicions towards Lamont when you first read. But a lot later, you decided to vote him based upon these reasons. Why the wait?

[ZazieR]

I propose something. We have already some decent suspects. What about if we concentrate discussion in these suspects and finally decide a vote and start railing discussion/reactions and such.

I really hope that you''re not saying that we should only concentrate on those players, because if that''s the case, I''m so against it.
So explain what you''re saying here.

Why are you so against it?

I hate it when conversations starts going in one million tangents and we can get a consensus on at least a explicit point.

Trust me, in posterior stages of the game, if we concentrate discussion in explicit points, we'll know every player reaction/opinion to them.

At this point everyone is going wherever they like and I dont even know, for example, what does everyone think of myko.

See my point?

Then ask what their opinions are of specific players, but don''t say that we should only focus on those players. Because if we''ll only focus on specific players, we''ll have to look back during later days.
Let''s just say that during day 6, there will be 8 players left. Of those, only 2 of them got more attention than the others due to this approach. But at a point like this, it''s important that you also have information about the remaining 6 players. Due to your appraoch, players will have to look back. And I don''t think many want to look back if this game has 80+ posts.
That''s why I''m against, and rather have that you ask each player what their opinion is of a specific player. As long as we don''t focus all of our attention of a few specific players.

^^This is my opinion of what Tajo said.

[ZazieR]

You cannot expect to get away with holding yourself to a different set of scumtells than those you apply to others.

I do this..because i know i'm innocent so acting scummy means shit. But others who act scummy, well i don't know their allegiance so its a scum tell unfair aint it ...

How serious is this?

Very, just like answering bolded parts that reference me being scummy.

Noted.
Also, this

[ZazieR]

That, and I think that everyone currently not voting should place the vote at their main suspect (preferably ZEEnon, but Lamont or ABR would be fine too).

I'm placing my vote for ZEEnon, because I have townreads on WeyounsLastClone and PhilyEc, and like their cases.

Vote: ZEEnon

And no, PhilyEc, I wasn't implying a townread on ZEE in 662. Just scumhunting.

Do you actually think he''s scummy?
If so, why?

[ZazieR]

vote: Lamont

Reason(s)?

[ZazieR]

Also, this

Benmage, this^^

[ZazieR]

@Benmage
You didn't believe Zwet's claim, and you voted Zwet after ABR posted this which you even quoted in your post in which you vote Zwet:

Vote: Zwet

No surprises here. I think we will be doing the scum a huge disfavor by lynching zwet no matter what his alignment.

Yet, Zwet has now given some answers regarding his claim, and it has been pointed out that the claim fits the flavour.
So what do you think of his claim now?
And can you explain why ABR's post resulted in your vote? (if it didn't, what did?)

I still disbelieve the claim, because I don’t see the logic behind making the initial claim. It was unnecessary imo.

Although I don’t share the same animosity against zwet that ABR does, zwet isn’t exactly the best player in my book(and I know I can’t say much with my minimal input into this game, but this is how I feel)

So yeah, those two reasons are why I voted.

Does the bolded make him more likely to be scum? If so, why?

Here''s the whole post.
Now answer.

[ZazieR]

I''m asking you why the bolded makes Zwet more likely to be scum.

[ZazieR]

Also, I'm not sure ZazieR ever explained what the reference to Open 145 in Post 131 was in aid of. ZazieR what was your reason for voting for zEEnon around that time, I never quite understood?

I did:

-No Mastin vote, while he did vote him in Open 145. His reason was that Mastin didn't joke in this game about his claim, while he did so in the other game. However, looking at his first post in this game, he clearly joked about being scum. Yet, no vote.

[ZazieR]

Ah misread...but no bolding it doesn't do shit to whats already been said in the post. The original post itself gave enough cause for suspicion to suspect something, give direction and allow for a vote. Your odd bolding does nothing.

I don''t understand this post

[ZazieR]

Ah misread...but no bolding it doesn't do shit to whats already been said in the post. The original post itself gave enough cause for suspicion to suspect something, give direction and allow for a vote. Your odd bolding does nothing.

I don''t understand this post

You bolding what I already stated doesn't add to zwet being scummy.

I''m reading here that the bolded wasn''t what made him scummy. So what did?

[ZazieR]

My impression of what you are asking was that bolding what i said somehow made him more scummy than what i originally felt.

Assume 1-10 10 being scummiest i view him an 8, you're asking if bolding it were to say raise his scummyness to a 9 or a 10, i'm saying no..the bold does nothing his scum remains an 8 (all the numbers are arbitrary.)

Are you now saying that you disbelieving his claim didn''t increase your suspicions of him

[ZazieR]

@Zazilicious - I figured that if Mastin was town in 145, then that would justify ZEE not voting for him here. But, since Mastin was scum in 145, it doesn't. Also, another good reason why it was suggested that we only look at the wagons to determine who we should majority-lynch is because then we can enter the night phase, and at least that way people who need to catch up can do so without you... I mean, erm.. you AND others posting up a storm and making it hard for them.

*shrug*
Don't give me such nicknames >.<

Also, I haven't posted for a few days in this topic. How many of the players who needed to get caught up did so in that time? So don't blame me.
And yeah, I post a lot of posts. But when I compare these small posts to how I posted first, I prefer the small posts. Otherwise, I would have been Mastin Look-a-liker, instead of Mastin with shorter posts >.<

[ZazieR]

@Lamont

Can you remind me why you voted Mastin?

[ZazieR]

Hmm... did your wiki page get deleted? It might be my computer, but there apparently is no article for your name.

Lamont's wiki

[ZazieR]

My impression of what you are asking was that bolding what i said somehow made him more scummy than what i originally felt.

This is frustrating just to read. It's probably been answered by now, but she was bolding it to point it out. The bolding does nothing more than reference that specific part of the post. She wants to know if the part of your post that she bolded makes Zwet scummy or not.

What he said. And I'd like to hear why that so is.

[ZazieR]

Dude, Zazie is female.

This
Feel my anger (yes I look happy, but I can assure you, I'm not!), Benmage:

Votecount
mykonian - 6 (LlamaFluff, cateraction, Spolium, ortolan, Kise, populartajo)
ZEEnon - 6 (WeyounsLastClone, PhilyEc, mykonian, Stephoscope, Lamont_Cranston, Starbuck)
Lamont_Cranston - 5 (magnus_orion, Kairyuu, Albert B. Rampage, Gorrad, MrBuddyLee)
Gorrad - 1 (Kmd4390)
zwetschenwasser - 1 (Benmage)
magnus_orion - 1 (ZazieR)
Jebus - 1 (zwetschenwasser)
Not voting: Jebus, semioldguy, Seraphim, ZEEnon

What is it? The two of you in unison...

Here it comes...

With 25 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[ZazieR]

mykonian - 6 (LlamaFluff, cateraction, Spolium, ortolan, Kise, populartajo)
Lamont_Cranston - 5 (magnus_orion, Kairyuu, Albert B. Rampage, Gorrad, MrBuddyLee)
ZEEnon - 4 (WeyounsLastClone, PhilyEc, Stephoscope, Lamont_Cranston)

^Truely possible lynches for today.

Gorrad - 2 (Kmd4390, Starbuck)
zwetschenwasser - 1 (Benmage)
magnus_orion - 1 (ZazieR)
Jebus - 1 (zwetschenwasser)

^ People who need to unvote and join a wagon.

I need to check the games Magnus has given first. If my point is valid, I'll keep my vote on him and will try to get him lynched. If it's invalid, I'll change to ZEE.

[ZazieR]

When I suggested the nameclaim, I was not even considering the scum's MO. I was trying to break the game based on the game I had run where names were not essential. With that as my precedant, it didn't occur to me that in this game names may actually be required to kill. When I realised my error, I made the post where I jokingly suggested a name and picture claim to show that I understood where what I had said previously could be taken wrong.

One thing to dispell those who think I may have a win condition to get name claims: Would a name claim-suggesting WC not be against the no game breaking rule? It's very presence means that said WC cannot exist.

Gorrad has made a fairly believable case here, especially if he is unfamiliar with the source material. Still though, a part of me doesn't like it. Gorrad is still very well on my scumdar, but I think Zee is going to be the way to go for today. He was extremely over defensive in the post following Mastin's death and it wasn't even called upon him to be so.

Well, as Gorrad already said, he had also run a Death Note mafia game once link
So I think he's familiar with it.
He also knows the different groups present and some of the characters in it:

I think the setup is breakable because think: The number of characters not clearly scum (allied with Light or Mello) is notably small. The SPK, Near's group, L, Watari, Light's family, and a handful of others (Lind L. Taylor, Raye and his SO, and Hideki Ryuga spring to mind). Could YOU get 25 names from that? I know I'd be hard-pressed to do so.

[ZazieR]

@Gorrad

Please explain the following.

When I suggested the nameclaim, I was not even considering the scum's MO. I was trying to break the game based on the game I had run where names were not essential. With that as my precedant, it didn't occur to me that in this game names may actually be required to kill. When I realised my error, I made the post where I jokingly suggested a name and picture claim to show that I understood where what I had said previously could be taken wrong.

You're defending yourself against Kevin's accusations by saying that you realised later why a name claim could be bad. According to you, you showed this in the post in which you joked about a name and picture claim.
So I want to hear an explanation for these posts that followed said 'joke'post:

What, you'd prefer if I asked for a name and picture claim? : D

I'd prefer if you didn't ask for a name claim in a game with a Theme where your name and face being known by the killer is enough for you to die.

You want I should go first as a sign of good faith?

I think the setup is breakable, and I think it makes no sense at all (in a gameplay sense, not a flavor sense) for an anti-town role to have to rely on rolenames to kill, so I'm not worrying about that.

I think it would make no sense to need rolename because that would SIGNIFICANTLY cripple any anti-town group. Especially if a hypothetical namecop died.

[ZazieR]

My impression of what you are asking was that bolding what i said somehow made him more scummy than what i originally felt.

This is frustrating just to read. It's probably been answered by now, but she was bolding it to point it out. The bolding does nothing more than reference that specific part of the post. She wants to know if the part of your post that she bolded makes Zwet scummy or not.

What he said. And I'd like to hear why that so is.

No way. I'm done here.

So you refuse to answer why it's scummy to you?

[ZazieR]

One thing to dispell those who think I may have a win condition to get name claims: Would a name claim-suggesting WC not be against the no game breaking rule? It's very presence means that said WC cannot exist.

Why was this brought up exactly?
Also, it's very likely not a possible win con. Each shinigami has Shingami Eyes, so they can find each name by theirselves. Add that they can't die, so they would only have to investigate those who would most likely survive to endgame.
If scum would have it, it would be pretty soon game over and easy for scum to win. Besides, scum have most of the time the opposite of the town wincon, which would probably result into something like:
'You win when there's at least one Death Note in your posession when town can't stop your group anymore.'

[ZazieR]

My impression of what you are asking was that bolding what i said somehow made him more scummy than what i originally felt.

This is frustrating just to read. It's probably been answered by now, but she was bolding it to point it out. The bolding does nothing more than reference that specific part of the post. She wants to know if the part of your post that she bolded makes Zwet scummy or not.

What he said. And I'd like to hear why that so is.

No way. I'm done here.

So you refuse to answer why it's scummy to you?

Honestly, a refusal to answer a simple question = SCUM for me and I'm pretty sure quite a few others.

I'd actually say that he doesn't have a reason behind it and is just following along. But it indeed leads to the same conclusion: scum.
So yeah, this.

[ZazieR]

@Myko

What's actually your opinion of Lamont?

And can you rephrase this and explain how you got this opinion of him:

ben(mage) doesn't seem the most like an enthousiastic but not yet experienced player.

[ZazieR]

Then why didn't you ask what I meant?!
It means 'elaborate'

[ZazieR]

Zazie, if you don't mind me asking, what exactly is your point against me?

Yes. But he claims to have a death note. As per the rules, we must gain and destroy all death notes, and vigging him forces shinigami to drop death note as per the rules.

I want to look in your games to see if you ever mention the wincon from the rules. This is the only reason why I'm voting you over ZEEnon.

[ZazieR]

Then why didn't you ask what I meant?!
It means 'elaborate'

I feel like i've answered it enough...there is nothing left to elaborate on.

Then link.

[ZazieR]

unvote, vote mykonian

I'm not liking the drawing of three weak scumpairs, attacks on lurkers, people who votehop, and someone who made a legitimate observation, all in the same post.

Still waiting to hear your reasons for voting Lamont.

[ZazieR]

EBWOP to Benmage
Also explain why you didn't ask what it meant the first time.

[ZazieR]

Then why didn't you ask what I meant?!
It means 'elaborate'

I feel like i've answered it enough...there is nothing left to elaborate on.

Then link.

Look at my last 15-20 posts in iso its all there.

It's not.
Those are all the posts in which you misunderstood what I meant.
So elaborate.

[ZazieR]

Kevin, ask him. He at least understands you.

[ZazieR]

Hmmm, kind of strange Gorrad... For some reason I was under the impression that Shinigami couldn't use their death notes to kill. Isn't that why they give them away, so that humans can use them?

@All:

Is there any precedence in the series for Shingami being able to use the death notes they possess themselves?

Shinigami are supposed to have one. That''s why both Rem and Ryuk could give a Death Note away. As both of them had two in their possession.
However, the third Shinigami (Shidoh) came to the human world to retrieve his Death Note.

Also, both Rem and Ryuk have used their Death Note in the serie to kill a human.

Votecount
mykonian - 7 (LlamaFluff, cateraction, Spolium, ortolan, Kise, populartajo, MrBuddyLee)
ZEEnon - 5 (WeyounsLastClone, PhilyEc, Stephoscope, Lamont_Cranston, Starbuck)
Lamont_Cranston - 4 (magnus_orion, Kairyuu, Albert B. Rampage, Gorrad)
Gorrad - 1 (Kmd4390)
zwetschenwasser - 1 (Benmage)
magnus_orion - 1 (ZazieR)
Jebus - 1 (zwetschenwasser)
Starbuck - 1 (mykonian)
Not voting: Jebus, semioldguy, Seraphim, ZEEnon

These guys are fighting for real. Humans are hilarious...

With 25 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[ZazieR]

Zaz.... can these questions seriously not wait until someone enters L-1 at least? Then you can unload your questions to be answered during D2. The reason I say wait until L-1 is because there's no telling if you'll be around past the night phase.

(I dare someone to ask me if I'm hinting about having a killing role....)

You know the game is dragging like a dog with an itchy butt whenever the mod doesn't even bother to include a quote with the vote count. (-_-)

UnFos: Seraphim

. He hasn't been on the site since he last came here.

Also, now that I've found out Mastin was maf in 145, I'm wondering why ZEE wouldn't think he was pro-Kira in this game. Out of the 3 big wagons, I'm comfortable with lynching ZEE and/or Myk.

Is there anyone here who has supported ZEE? What makes you think he's pro-town?

No, my questions can''t wait. If they could, I wouldn''t be asking them now.
And the mod didn''t forget to include a quote. It''s just the same quote (see pages 56 and 57) >.<
Seraphim has been online. He just hasn''t posted.

[ZazieR]

Mod: V/LA (see my sig)

Long story short, my computer is fried (fuckshitpiss), posting from my brother's computer. This means I've got no access to any files on my comp, including the text file with all my notes for this game (through page 51).

So pretty depressed right now...

So you do have notes? Then why didn''t you post them after this post:

Been busy - sorry for flaking to start off with, currently on 40/44 - you guys post too fast >.<

POST OPINIONS ON THE FIRST 40

[ZazieR]

Dude, is the part of your post that Zazie bolded a scumtell against Zwet or not? Explain why. That's all she is asking.

There you go Benmage.

[ZazieR]

In addition to that, if he was killed by a death note, the implications don't make a bit of sense. The rules post specifically states that as soon as a death note enters the possesion of someone pro-town it wil be destroyed. Therefore, if Mastin was killed by a death note, he was killed by either scum or a Shinigami. Why would an anti-town role kill Mastin when so many people were beginning to suspect him? Seems much more like a foolish policy-vig to me.

Or perhaps because of this:

In this game, it is possible to obtain a Death Note in several ways. If a player possessing a Death Note is lynched, a random member of the lynch mob receives the Death Note. If a player possessing a Death Note is killed, the killer (if there are multiple killers, one is chosen at random) receives the Death Note.

I go to the trouble of agreeing with Mastin, and provide my views that he is town, even though he is quite the easy mislynch. I even know that I'll take flak for supporting the top lynch suspect, but I press forward anyway with the intention of making an ally of the most probable lynch of D1.

In other words, it can be used as an excellent bussing method if a buddy says that Mastin is scum, not? Also, scum probably know if there''s one scumteam or two, so if there''s one, you would receive less flak if Mastin flips before you get lynched as most players would look at the wagon, instead of those protecting him.

@Zazie: I've already mentioned why I thought Mastin was obvtown.

I know you did. But later (don''t know if it was in one of those posts) I asked what the difference was what Mastin did here at the start of this game, and what I did in Open 145. So can you please answer that?

[ZazieR]

Ok then I seriously want to know how Kai could of missed this. What do you think about my questions concerning specifying kill methods for notes?

Missed what? How does Light finding a death note in the beginning of the series mean that Mastin was killed by scum? Or a death note even? And how does my not thinking that Mastin was killed by a death note imply that I missed anything?

@Lamont

You''ve got nothing to say about this?

[ZazieR]

@Spoilum:

I look back on Kairyuu's #477 with concern, principally because he didn't consider the possibility of a specified cause of death (for the uninitiated, this is a heavily-used plot device in Death Note). I cannot fathom why a townie familiar with the Death Note story would dismiss that hypothesis and can only presume there is an ulterior motive.

In addition to that, if he was killed by a death note, the implications don't make a bit of sense. The rules post specifically states that as soon as a death note enters the possesion of someone pro-town it wil be destroyed. Therefore, if Mastin was killed by a death note, he was killed by either scum or a Shinigami. Why would an anti-town role kill Mastin when so many people were beginning to suspect him? Seems much more like a foolish policy-vig to me.

QFT. Mastin was a leading wagon at the time he was killed. I was correct in moving my vote from Kai before his answer

(lucky me).

Btw, nice catchup post.

Explain the bolded.

[ZazieR]

I would just like to mention that I find the people in ZEEnon's wagon to seem more trustworthy than the people in mykonian's wagon.

I'm not at all sticking up for mykonian, as I kind of see the case against him too. I'm just saying...take a look and see if you agree.

Can you explain in detail why you see Myko and ZEE as scummy?

[ZazieR]

@Zazie:

Who is the female depicted in your post at the top of the last page?

Dokuro-chan~

[ZazieR]

Kairyuu, while I do fully believe Mastin was killed by a townie, it is illogical to rule out a Shinigami's kill.

Consider: Shinigami are NOT anti-town, they're third-party with a unique win condition for each. Who is to say that one of those win conditions is not furthered by killing scum? Also, the Death Note allows people to specify kill's MO. I think writing 'Mastin plugged full of holes' would be easy enough.

Wait. Shinigami kill? Why do you only mention Shinigami kill and not scum kill?
Also, Misa Misa *shrug* was important to Rem, and Ryuk wanted to see what a human would do with a Death Note, so to me, it seems very unlikely that Rem or Ryuk wants to kill scum.
Which would only leave Shidoh.
So it seems very unlikely that such wincon exists.

[ZazieR]

I''ve already explained why I do it. Try to stop me and meet your future , just like that girl:

[ZazieR]

Now if I can just never talk to zaz again I can maybe play this game…I found this tidbit drastically interesting yet everyone seemed to over look it. Is noone troubled that Kise is claiming a vig-like or killer of some-type for no real apparent reason??

Zaz.... can these questions seriously not wait until someone enters L-1 at least? Then you can unload your questions to be answered during D2. The reason I say wait until L-1 is because there's no telling if you'll be around past the night phase.

(I dare someone to ask me if I'm hinting about having a killing role....)

You know the game is dragging like a dog with an itchy butt whenever the mod doesn't even bother to include a quote with the vote count. (-_-)

UnFos: Seraphim

. He hasn't been on the site since he last came here.

Also, now that I've found out Mastin was maf in 145, I'm wondering why ZEE wouldn't think he was pro-Kira in this game. Out of the 3 big wagons, I'm comfortable with lynching ZEE and/or Myk.

Is there anyone here who has supported ZEE? What makes you think he's pro-town?

He's not. Ongoing game reference. But it's nice to know that you pointed out something you saw as soft-claim.
And that request won't happen.

[ZazieR]

Unvote Vote Zazier

Her spamming posts of fluff is such a waste and a distraction. She's essentially mass defending all scum simply by distracting every other player.

Fixed it for you.
Also, when will you learn that policy lynches don't help? Those are a distraction to the town.
If you think questioning other players and making cases are distracting, than yes, I'm distracting. Otherwise, I'm not.

[ZazieR]

If you want to know why I asked, Benmage, it is to show you that that reason for voting him does not make sense. You say it's illogical and unnecessary. However, why would Zwet-scum claim then?
It was also pointed out by others that he did this as well in Medieval, in which he was town. So why does this claim still make him look scummy?
And there's one other game in which you even participated with him.

With your vote against me added, you have voted three times for a policy lynch. And those were your only votes throughout this whole game.
Also, you're not somebody who may accuse another of fluff.

[ZazieR]

Ok, I''ll have to go soon, but first:

Mod

- Do we get to hear Phily''s rolename?

No.

[ZazieR]

Ok, I''ll have to go soon, but first:

Mod

- Do we get to hear Phily''s rolename?

I think modkills automatically become anonymous neutral survivors.

Which hurts us, so I hope the mod will tell or the player who was told.

[ZazieR]

Ok, I''ll have to go soon, but first:

Mod

- Do we get to hear Phily''s rolename?

No.

Then I''ll assume that he was anti-Kira.

[ZazieR]

She is chainsaw defending everyone by making this game impossible to read/play with post spammage.

Give a description of what chainsaw defence means.
Also, what''s your reason for thinking that my posts make this game impossible to play/read.

Gets rid of unhelpful player with the chance of landing on a scum/anti-town player.

Sure, that works. So first the ''spammer''. Tomorrow the fake claimer who perhaps fake claimed that he fake claimed. And the following days the heavy lurkers?
Sure, that works
Policy lynches won''t help, and probably never will. That''s why I only support a policy lynch on one player.

I mean 1st day lynches are usually from my experience mislynches town people.

Doesn''t mean you shouldn''t try to look for scum

[ZazieR]

Also, don't make the mistake of only thinking of the three. Just because Gelus is the mod doesn't mean there's not a character with that flavor, and there ARE other shinigami shown in the universe.

But those were the main ones. Others included Gelus, the King and one other who gave another human a death note in the manga. Those are to me the only ones who besides Shidoh, Ryuk and Rem are possible to be in the game.
But still, none of them seem to me that they would have a wincon in which they need to kill scum. And that was what I wanted to say.

[ZazieR]

That''s why I only support a policy lynch on one player.

Who?

Obv, OP *shrug*

[ZazieR]

I like seeing her posts. I READ them. I think about them (maybe just briefly) and I move on. But I don't complain about them because they are helpful to the town. I'm trying to figure out why you can't see that...

Because i had to go through the most frustrating misunderstanding ever over a non-issue and i never wish it upon anyone.

Are you blaming me for that?! You were the one who didn''t understand what I was talking about. Kevin could see what I meant, and I think it was quite obvious as well.
I''ll check later to your answer.

[ZazieR]

Wheter he did or didnt, hes not on the top of my hitlist at the moment. Town need to concentrate on the three wagons presented and make a decision now. ZEE is definately scum. Ben cooooould be scum. Lets go with the safer option yeah.

ZEE, what do you think of this?

[ZazieR]

I would just like to mention that I find the people in ZEEnon's wagon to seem more trustworthy than the people in mykonian's wagon.

I'm not at all sticking up for mykonian, as I kind of see the case against him too. I'm just saying...take a look and see if you agree.

Can you explain in detail why you see Myko and ZEE as scummy?

Well, with mykonian, let me be clear: I am not at all convinced he's scum. But comments from others about how he seemed like he was coasting through the game, and providing information not analysis, were not without merit.

But as for ZEEnon, he had that "What. The Hell." post, he hasn't followed through on at least two promises to post, and he's seemed overly defensive in his responses to you. And, as I said before, I have townreads on several others on the ZEEnon wagon.

So Myko is coasting through the game according to you?
If so, what''s the difference according to you from what he''s doing and what you are doing?

[ZazieR]

I still have reason to be really really sure Zee is town. Overdefensive is still a bad tell that you should lynch people using it instead of people who are who are "overdefensive". Zee is harmless, myk is the one who will kill us all.

And that reason is?

[ZazieR]

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.
They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

Here I state a fact. I thought that Magnus didn't realize that Mastin wouldn't be killed if he actually was a shinigami.

But if he was a shinigami, he''d have lost his Death Note if he had one. So why would it matter if he wouldn''t get killed?
Also, if you thought he wasn''t scum or shinigami, why didn''t you state so with reason?

[ZazieR]

I was hoping you weren't going to say that.

"pretends"
You know that zeenon was faking it? Can you offer evidence that suggests conflicted play toward mastin?
Because if you can't, this just looks like another one of your "They disagreed with me on mastin! Must be Scum!" accusations...

Also, I'm curious as to what the case against zee is... since a lot of people seem to think zee is scummy, but I don't see why.

I still need to check ZEEnon''s responses for his case, however when you wanted to lynch/get a vig-kill, he claims to have told you that they are unlynchable/unkillable in case you didn''t know.
However, why would he worry about telling you that if it could give us a Death Note?

[ZazieR]

Also, don't make the mistake of only thinking of the three. Just because Gelus is the mod doesn't mean there's not a character with that flavor, and there ARE other shinigami shown in the universe.

But those were the main ones. Others included Gelus, the King and one other who gave another human a death note in the manga. Those are to me the only ones who besides Shidoh, Ryuk and Rem are possible to be in the game.
But still, none of them seem to me that they would have a wincon in which they need to kill scum. And that was what I wanted to say.

Sidoh was with Mello for a good portion, and therefore had motive to kill Kira.

And yes, I know /precisely/ how I'm sounding. I sound like scum doing blatant distancing. I knew that's how I'd come off when I first said it.

I already said that it would only leave Shidoh, which makes such a wincon very unlikely. Especially when a Death Note gets destroyed when an anti-Kira role has it. Therefore, Shidoh is probably not with Mello as Mello wanted to capture Kira in the serie.

And why did you add the final part?

[ZazieR]

1) Wants to keep the town from destroying the note
2) Pretends like Mastin wasn't being scummy based on previous games as a bogus excuse
3) Then pretends he knew Mastin was town all along to cover why he discouraged killing him when he finally realized Mastin was town.

1) No. Where did I state this? Where did I even hint this?

2) You obviously don't play a lot of mafia games. What kind of scum purposely does what Mastin did? Do you play like that as scum?

3) I did. Besides his continuous buddying up to me, there was nothing wrong with his play. That's my opinion, and I stick to it.

____________________________________________________

Do you see a lot of scum purposely play as Mastin did?
What purpose would scum have to claim scum? The worst he could be was a jester.
If he

was

a jester, what point would we have to lynch him?
If I

was

scum like you say I am, I would have known he was town.
Why would I not jump on his action like.. oh I don't know.. you did?
To make myself look good? This situation doesn't look like i'm in a positive light to me ...

The bolded is just wrong. You have seen Mastin play exactly like this as scum. And now you''re pretending he didn''t.

The part under the line is a heavy deja vu. Kai used the exact same thing. Quote and my response to it:

I go to the trouble of agreeing with Mastin, and provide my views that he is town, even though he is quite the easy mislynch. I even know that I'll take flak for supporting the top lynch suspect, but I press forward anyway with the intention of making an ally of the most probable lynch of D1.

In other words, it can be used as an excellent bussing method if a buddy says that Mastin is scum, not? Also, scum probably know if there''s one scumteam or two, so if there''s one, you would receive less flak if Mastin flips before you get lynched as most players would look at the wagon, instead of those protecting him.

[ZazieR]

So I'm not supporting it because I don't think the case is a good one,

and I'm not going against it because if I do and he flips scum, then that's major scum points.

Wow...
Noted.

[ZazieR]

___________________________________________________________________________

Mastin did. He even mentioned that two players could confirm this.
And I already told you my issue with the point you just mentioned about Kai.

This is a blatant lie.
Please go re-read the beginning stages of the game before you twist the facts.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0
I do not see him saying anything about it. Unless it was after I replaced?
I didn't really bother to read the game when I replaced out ..

___________________________________________________________________________

It was before you asked the mod to be replaced out of the game.

[ZazieR]

Then I''ll assume that he was anti-Kira.

Why?

Because he wanted to share roles with another player?
Also, based upon my previous game with him, I think I know who it is. So I''d be rather surprised if Phily as pro-Kira/Shinigami would ask to share roles with that player.

[ZazieR]

Mastin should be vig-killed

if possible due to wifom.
Since that is my position, voting him is pointless.

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.

They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

@Zee:

If Mastin is

not

Shinigami then what would a vig kill do to him? (we all know the answer, "kill him".)

As I said yesterday, I stated a fact.
He

claimed

to be a shinigami. I stated what would happen if his claim was true.

Therefore why point it out to Magnus who is calling for a vig kill if Mastin is

not

a Shinigami??

Why are you lying about this

??

I didn't think magnus_orion realized that shinigami were unkillable. What am I lying about?

But if his claim was true, we could have gotten a Death Note with a vig kill if he had one. So if the claim was true, you have no reason to say that a vig kill wouldn''t kill him as anti-Kira. Therefore, I believe you''re not.

[ZazieR]

ZazieR, you are acting extremely hard to deal with right now.
First of all, I did not claim that I went to check out Mastin's meta to verify.
Second of all, you claim that I

changed

my post.
I wasn't going to post. The reason why I posted was to comment on what I seen.

See the second line in which I state that even without checking it seems very unlikely.
And if you didn't change your post, it means you didn't want to vote Mastin for the same thing you voted him in Open 145 to start with.
So which is it? Did you or did you not want to vote Mastin for the same reason you voted him in Open 145 and why?

The reason why he voted Mastin in the previous game and how he reacted to Mastin in that game. Mastin is doing the exact same things, yet ZEEnon doesn't see it as scummy in this game.

Mastin was scum in Open 145. Why do you not acknowledge this in

this

game?

Why are you hiding from this

?

I answered this so many times it's hurting me just reading it! Kairyuu hinted at the fact that Mastin does it all the time.
My vote for Mastin in Open 145 was

NOT SERIOUS.

I did

NOT

this he was scum because of the self vote that game.

STOP

inferring that I did. His

REACTION

to my vote is what made me sure he was scum.

Can you give me links to games in which you were present during the RVS?

[ZazieR]

@Llama

In post 1592, you state your case against Myko. Way before this, I stated mine against him. As far as I know, you never addressed it. Why''s that?
Here it is for references.

[ZazieR]

ZEE did something similar to ABR's diversion. I see that now, and I'm going to avoid voting against ZEE for that reason.

I don''t understand this post

[ZazieR]

Ok, I''ll have to go soon, but first:

Mod

- Do we get to hear Phily''s rolename?

I think modkills automatically become anonymous neutral survivors.

Which hurts us, so I hope the mod will tell or the player who was told.

I'm surprised you'd incite someone else to potentially get mod-killed. You're not usually sloppy like that.

How could it lead to a mod-kill
Anyway, the mod hadn''t answered yet at that point. So in case the mod hadn''t said to the specific player that he wasn''t allowed to say what role Phily had, he might could have told us something.
Because we now don''t know a role name that was in this game. Though I think Phily was anti-Kira, it''s still player speculation. And in the end, we won''t know valuable information. Which is why I asked.

[ZazieR]

Hey myk, do you have a defense other than "my play sucked, sorry"? Because the defense is sorta inadequate, and is in fact, still failing to explain some of the blatant inconsistancies with your opinions on this game, which seem to imply to me that you're being selective in your positions.

Myko is having computer problems, so the chance that he''s getting online to defend himself is rather small.

[ZazieR]

ZazieR: you were asking the relevant player to reveal the information after the mod reveal post already indicated he did not wish for PhilyEc's role to be made public. To me it seems if the person had responded it could well have lead to another mod-kill.

Oh? Where did he say that?

[ZazieR]

Any scum player possessing a Death Note is Kira. There can be multiple Kiras, even at the same time, and there even can be no Kiras.

Pointing this out as it may be important later.

[ZazieR]

the fact it said "neutral survivor". You also seemed to know that this wasn't his actual role prior to him being modkilled (therefore the mod had chosen not to reveal his actual role), because otherwise you wouldn't have needed to ask what it was.

I''ve been in a game of Bird in which a modkilled player got also turned into a neutral survivor. But he revealed what role that player used to have. So I asked in case he''d also add it.

[ZazieR]

yes but you also asked if the player himself who'd been contacted would reveal it as an alternative to the mod. I'm aware this is probably a minor point of detail but as I said, it is sloppiness inconsistent with your meta as I'm aware of it

Because he has additional information nobody else has and is allowed to stay in the game?
I''m sorry if you disagree, but I see it as unfair that one player is allowed to know, while the others aren''t.

Votecount
mykonian - 10 (LlamaFluff, cateraction, Kise, Lamont_Cranston, magnus_orion, WeyounsLastClone, ortolan, Stephoscope, Starbuck, zwetschenwasser)
Lamont_Cranston - 1 (Gorrad)
ZEEnon - 1 (Kmd4390)
Not voting: Kairyuu, mykonian, Benmage, ZazieR, Vi, populartajo, MrBuddyLee, Skruffs, semioldguy, Seraphim, ZEEnon, Spolium

Everyone, the Shiniga-

With 24 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[ZazieR]

it was still clearly not the player's discretion to choose in this case. I'd have no problems with you asking the mod.

Cuddly Bear, think about it. A player told another his role. Why would the mod kill one of them, but not the other? Why not the one with the information? Or at least replace him?
To me, the answer is that the player who heard didn''t need to know the information. Which is only possible for scum (perhaps shinigami).

And there''s one other reason why I asked the player. However, I''m not allowed to tell.

[ZazieR]

it was still clearly not the player's discretion to choose in this case. I'd have no problems with you asking the mod.

Cuddly Bear, think about it. A player told another his role. Why would the mod kill one of them, but not the other? Why not the one with the information? Or at least replace him?
To me, the answer is that the player who heard didn''t need to know the information. Which is only possible for scum (perhaps shinigami).

And there''s one other reason why I asked the player. However, I''m not allowed to tell.

This post is setting off my scumdar quite hard.

Firstly, obviously the mod is not going to punish someone for being an innocent victim of someone else's actions, especially when they immediately report it to the mod as was clearly done. At worst they would replace them. So that possibility doesn't even warrant consideration. Otherwise I think the assumption that the player is scum is possibly (though not necessarily) unjustified. Finally I don't see any plausible reason you could have which you "are not allowed" to reveal. Surely if you were in this situation you would have PM'ed the mod in the first place anyhow. I would like to know what the nature of this reason is if you are able to say without getting mod-killed, otherwise I will consider you scummy.

I already said that the player should at least be replaced. He has extra information, which he would only allowed to have if he doesn't need to know Phily's allignment. In other words, he's very likely to be pro-Kira.
And if I'm correct about the player, this isn't the only thing against him as ZEEnon has been scummy all day long as I've already pointed out. In case you wonder why I think it's ZEEnon, Phily has him on MSN and they are buddies as they know each other from a different site.
And what I have isn't allowed to be told. However, it's a huge point against the player who got contacted by Phily.

Also, in case you asked if I'd have told the mods (as I get that impression), no, I wouldn't have. I'd have told Phily that he shouldn't have done that and I'd have asked to be replaced out of this game.
Something I've done before.

Anyway,

Vote ZEEnon

For reasons already given.

[ZazieR]

You are voting Myko as shown in the VC above.

[ZazieR]

Oh, and Cuddly Bear, if you disagree with my statement, please state why a player who has extra information regarding Phily and isn't trying to hint at the role name can possibly be anti-Kira.
Because the last time I got information regarding a different role, which I shouldn't have gotten (though it was due to a wrong mod PM) I was forced replaced.

[ZazieR]

Tajo, it's L-2 and Myko is having computer issues, so if he has time to claim, it will most likely come tomorrow.

Also, I've made a case against Myko and I find him suspicious. However, I find ZEEnon more suspicious and therefore he has my vote.

[ZazieR]

Oh, and Cuddly Bear, if you disagree with my statement, please state why a player who has extra information regarding Phily and isn't trying to hint at the role name can possibly be anti-Kira.
Because the last time I got information regarding a different role, which I shouldn't have gotten (though it was due to a wrong mod PM) I was forced replaced.

Cuddly Zaz, so you are basically saying either the player is scum or was force-replaced?

I would indeed think that the player is more likely scum if he wasn't force replaced.
Also, if you disagree, see the first part of the quote.

[ZazieR]

Check the VC.
I also thought it wasn't L-1, but MBL's vote wasn't counted...

[ZazieR]

Zwet, it's L-2. Otherwise, your unvote wouldn't have had any use.

Votecount
mykonian - 11 (LlamaFluff, cateraction, Kise, Lamont_Cranston, magnus_orion, WeyounsLastClone, ortolan, Stephoscope, Starbuck, MrBuddyLee, populartajo)
ZEEnon - 2 (Kmd4390, ZazieR)
Lamont_Cranston - 1 (Gorrad)
Not voting: cateraction, Kairyuu, mykonian, Benmage, Vi, Skruffs, semioldguy, Seraphim, ZEEnon, Spolium, zwetschenwasser

All my obstacles have disappeared.

With 24 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[ZazieR]

ZEE did something similar to ABR's diversion. I see that now, and I'm going to avoid voting against ZEE for that reason.

I don''t understand this post

ABR said Mastin was a Jester so that people wouldn't vote for him. ZEE noticed that Magnus was directing a vig-kill on Mastin (who Magnus thought was Shin'), so ZEE tried to make it

seem

futile by stating that Shinigami cannot be killed. ABR & ZEE had different ways of trying to divert [unneeded] attention on Mastin, despite how much attention Mastin knew he would receive.

Have you read ZEE's explanation?

[ZazieR]

I've made a case against Myko and I find him suspicious. However, I find ZEEnon more suspicious and therefore he has my vote.

Cool, but the rest of us don't find ZEE more suspicious, so at least lynch one of your other suspects today and we'll see about ZEE during D2.

No. Because there are a few players who also find ZEE more suspicious on the Myko wagon.
Besides, list of suspicion:

ZEE..................................................Myko
(and somewhere in between could be Magnus)

[ZazieR]

I definitely just said that.

I'm borrowing Zaz's playstyle by responding to each post individually. ^_^ Didn't see your comment when I made mine.

*glare*

[ZazieR]

@Zee:

If Mastin is

not

Shinigami then what would a vig kill do to him? (we all know the answer, "kill him".)

As I said yesterday,

I stated a fact.

He

claimed

to be a shinigami. I stated what would happen

if

his claim was true.

I read this as an explanation to his diversion. Do you see it differently [Zaz]?

Mastin should be vig-killed

if possible due to wifom.
Since that is my position, voting him is pointless.

Mastin claims to be a Shinigami, magnus_orion.

They are unlynchable and unkillable according to the rules.

@Zee:

If Mastin is

not

Shinigami then what would a vig kill do to him? (we all know the answer, "kill him".)

As I said yesterday, I stated a fact.
He

claimed

to be a shinigami. I stated what would happen if his claim was true.

Therefore why point it out to Magnus who is calling for a vig kill if Mastin is

not

a Shinigami??

Why are you lying about this

??

I didn't think magnus_orion realized that shinigami were unkillable. What am I lying about?

But if his claim was true, we could have gotten a Death Note with a vig kill if he had one. So if the claim was true, you have no reason to say that a vig kill wouldn''t kill him as anti-Kira. Therefore, I believe you''re not.

[ZazieR]

Lamont, Wey, Stepho, and Starbuck:

What made you switch from ZEEnon to Myko?

I said way back in one of my walls o text that I find them both suspicious and I don't care which one is lynched. The votes are going for Myko so I switched over.

Did you address the Myko case
I can't remember that...

[ZazieR]

Actually Star, reading you in ISO, you never suspected Myk up until this past Sunday. Now I want myk gone as well, but it's just strange.

My suspicions currently lie with Lamont, ZEEnon, and Gorrad. I'm still unsure when it comes to Zwet.

She questioned him a little. I wouldn't say she was strongly after him, but if I had to guess whether she thought he was town or scum, I'd say scum.

Where?

[ZazieR]

ZEE was the

second

highest lynch wagon before the modkill. Are you saying that today's lynch is Myko and only Myko?

ZEE has, what, 2 votes on him? Compared to myk's 11, who else is a probable lynch?

Note that some of the players who are voting Myko have shown some interest in voting ZEE, the scummier player of the two.

[ZazieR]

Alrighty then.. So what kind of claim do you all expect from Myk; character, role, both? Just a hint/softclaim?

If somebody has to claim, rolename and a short description of a possible night action.

[ZazieR]

But she never addressed the Myko case and I don't think she has ever explained why she's suspicious of Myko.

[ZazieR]

I would just like to mention that I find the people in ZEEnon's wagon to seem more trustworthy than the people in mykonian's wagon.

I'm not at all sticking up for mykonian, as I kind of see the case against him too. I'm just saying...take a look and see if you agree.

Can you explain in detail why you see Myko and ZEE as scummy?

Well, with mykonian, let me be clear: I am not at all convinced he's scum. But comments from others about how he seemed like he was coasting through the game, and providing information not analysis, were not without merit.

But as for ZEEnon, he had that "What. The Hell." post, he hasn't followed through on at least two promises to post, and he's seemed overly defensive in his responses to you. And, as I said before, I have townreads on several others on the ZEEnon wagon.

So Myko is coasting through the game according to you?
If so, what''s the difference according to you from what he''s doing and what you are doing?

Also, Steph, this^^

[ZazieR]

But she never addressed the Myko case and I don't think she has ever explained why she's suspicious of Myko.

That's what I was getting at.

But I was there first

[ZazieR]

But she never addressed the Myko case and I don't think she has ever explained why she's suspicious of Myko.

Don't you think it's at least more than what Stepho said?

Steph has addressed the case. See my quote in post 1755.
My problem with him is that he's voting somebody for something he's doing.

[ZazieR]

That's not an answer, Steph.

[ZazieR]

But she never addressed the Myko case and I don't think she has ever explained why she's suspicious of Myko.

Don't you think it's at least more than what Stepho said?

Steph has addressed the case. See my quote in post 1755.
My problem with him is that he's voting somebody for something he's doing.

I'm a bit overwhelmed by a game with so many players and that moves so fast.

If

I know I'm innocent, it's not hypocritical to suspect others who show signs of potentially being guilty. A professional player who bulks up naturally has valid reasons to suspect other large professional baseball players of using steroids.

However, the same applies for professional players using steroids as they can also accuse professional players of using steroids.

[ZazieR]

Myko has LA. I don't know if he has time to post during the week.
But he should have a computer available during the weekend.

[ZazieR]

Mod

- Can you prod Spolium?
I noticed he got replaced in some games.

Spolium has requested replacement. I have no available replacements. I'm doing my best to obtain replacements, but until then, you're stuck with a nonplayer.

[ZazieR]

I'm a bit overwhelmed by a game with so many players and that moves so fast.

If I know I'm innocent, it's not hypocritical to suspect others who show signs of potentially being guilty. A professional player who bulks up naturally has valid reasons to suspect other large professional baseball players of using steroids.

Hmm. Actually, your comparison makes sense. I'm just trying to decide if it applies in mafia too though...

After long thinking, it doesn''t.
When you use steroids, it will be noticed due to different signs. A player who bulks up naturally doesn''t show these signs. So when the natural up-bulk player accuses the one who might be using steroids of using steroids, he can do so, because he doesn''t show these signs.
Steph on the other hand is accusing Myko for signs which he''s also showing aka he''s accusing Myko of taking steroids for signs he''s also showing. So no, it''s not valid.

[ZazieR]

Actually, not just coasting, but also IIOA & other [minor] posts have been made by you, Steph.

And about the steroid comparison: What if the other players also think you're using the juice?

I'd advise them to lynch ZEEnon, who I still think is most likely to be scum, then thank me for my help (assuming he's scum) and wonder if I really would have bussed him (somewhat WIFOM, but whatever)

But weren''t we talking about Myko
And what if the player who you accused turns up town instead of scum? Or Shinigami?

[ZazieR]

But she never addressed the Myko case and I don't think she has ever explained why she's suspicious of Myko.

Don't you think it's at least more than what Stepho said?

Steph has addressed the case. See my quote in post 1755.
My problem with him is that he's voting somebody for something he's doing.

I'm a bit overwhelmed by a game with so many players and that moves so fast.

If

I know I'm innocent, it's not hypocritical to suspect others who show signs of potentially being guilty. A professional player who bulks up naturally has valid reasons to suspect other large professional baseball players of using steroids.

However, the same applies for professional players using steroids as they can also accuse professional players of using steroids.

I agree. I am not using my example to prove I'm innocent, only saying that I'm not hypocritical.

If post 1786 is correct, you are. I''d actually say that in the example you have given, the accuser is Llama and the accused is Myko. You''d more likely fit in as another player who''s now trying to get all the attention on Myko so that others won''t look at you as you''re afraid of getting caught on the same signs. In the group against the accused player, you''d be save as you''d be less easy to get noticed as you''re just one of the many attackers.

[ZazieR]

@Llama

What do you think of Stepho?

[ZazieR]

if I was feeling uncharitable

I would say Kairyuu is trying to distance himself from a mislynch while tying himself to magnus_orion

First of all, the bolded. Is this a real accusation or not? Because due to the bolded, I get the impression that you point it out to see what other players think of it, while leaving an exit over in case this accusation backfires.
Also, if you get the impression that Kai is distancing himself from a misliynch, then why no unvote as you''re voting the player who Kai is distancing from according to this accusation.
Last, we had a discussion yesterday. Don''t you have anything to say about it now?

[ZazieR]

It looks sarcastic, Zaz.

Let Bear answer first.
And if it is, I want to hear why he felt the need to say it.

[ZazieR]

@Stepho

From your first post:

I'm not used to games with this many players though, so I don't have a good feel for how they typically start.

As was already pointed out, this isn''t true. The first time, I only pointed out Nasubi though I didn''t mention the name. Due to your response to it, we learned that you have been in two completed large games before this one.
In other words, ''newbie defence'' regarding large games, while this isn''t the case.
In your following post, you responded to it:

And, as for the one large theme game I was in before, that was my first game here, so I didn't have much to compare it to, and I don't remember it moving nearly this fast. This game is tough to keep up with on a busy weekend. I was killed off early in that large theme game, and hadn't played any since then until now, so hopefully it's clear why I made that comment.

You said that you weren''t in any large game after Prisoner''s dillemma. Which was already said not true as you were later in Nasubi.
In the last post about this, we find this:

Nasubi was nothing like this. There were probably only half as many players. If you review my play here to date and compare this game to my others, it should be obvious why I said what I did.

This also doesn''t explain it as you''ve been in another large game since May.

tl;dr Unneeded ''Newbie defence'' regarding large games which hasn''t been explained with valid reasons.

So please explain why you pointed out what you said in the first quote.

[ZazieR]

I just skimmed this, and there is little more I can do on the moment, but I read that I had to claim. Well, so be it. I won't nameclaim, because what KMD said, and it is better to take no risks.

I'm a dayvig. I don't have to use a deathnote for that Mastin was my kill.

Reason?

[ZazieR]

Last, we had a discussion yesterday. Don''t you have anything to say about it now?

Not off the top of my head, should I have? Do

you

have anything to say about it? Otherwise why bring it up?

I asked that if you disagreed with what I said, that you state why. Which is why I asked. To see if you wanted to refute my point.

[ZazieR]

Because this is how a force-replacement looks like.

[ZazieR]

this game is not modded by Tarhalindur

It''s an example. Mod-kills and forced replacements get pointed out by the mods.
Besides, nobody got replaced around that time. The next one was a day later and the previous one was 12 hours earlier. So there was no forced replacement.

[ZazieR]

I have no reason to think that Phily contacted a player through PM, instead of a player to whom he talks through either AIM or MSN.
Therefore, ABR and Jebus aren''t even possible in my opinion.

[ZazieR]

This is why I think it was ZEE.

And I don''t know what this means

Man, Zaze you like to play it close to the edge.

(And why do you call me Zaze?)

[ZazieR]

But back to Myko''s claim.

Myko

. Did you know the rules regarding Shinigami/scum dropping possible Death Notes when Mastin got shot?

[ZazieR]

here and here are examples of scum Myko fake claiming.

[ZazieR]

unvote

vote: mykonian

You just claimed to have shot someone who you had declared looked town. That doesn't make sense.

This. Though I''ll wait till Myko has answered our questions.
How are the minimum of 15 pages coming ?

[ZazieR]

That was Robbers

[ZazieR]

unvote

vote: mykonian

You just claimed to have shot someone who you had declared looked town. That doesn't make sense.

Ya and come to think of it, didn't have a death note either...

Eh? Could you elaborate why you''re saying this?

[ZazieR]

Yeah, which is why I''m asking him questions.

Votecount
mykonian - 10 (LlamaFluff, cateraction, Kise, magnus_orion, WeyounsLastClone, Stephoscope, Starbuck, MrBuddyLee, populartajo, Kairyuu)
ZEEnon - 3 (Kmd4390, ZazieR, Lamont_Craonston)
Lamont_Cranston - 1 (Gorrad)
Not voting: cateraction, mykonian, Benmage, Vi, Skruffs, semioldguy, Seraphim, ZEEnon, Spolium, zwetschenwasser, ortolan

Sayonara, Raye Penber.

With 24 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[ZazieR]

Elaborate after Myko has answered the questions.

[ZazieR]

Wow... I thought Lamont was the day-killer.

Myk, are you able to kill every day, or was that 1-shot?

Why do you want to know this?

[ZazieR]

@Mag - Could be more 1-shot vigs, if that's what Myk is.
@Zaz - I'll answer after Myk.

Mhmm, you better have a good reason. Because this is heavy rolefishing.

[ZazieR]

That myk kid needs to show up and start talking.

He''s having computer issues >.<
During the weekend, he should have enough time to respond.

Votecount
mykonian - 11 (LlamaFluff, cateraction, Kise, magnus_orion, WeyounsLastClone, Stephoscope, Starbuck, MrBuddyLee, populartajo, Kairyuu, Benmage)
ZEEnon - 3 (Kmd4390, ZazieR, Lamont_Craonston)
Lamont_Cranston - 1 (Gorrad)
Not voting: cateraction, mykonian, Vi, Skruffs, semioldguy, Seraphim, ZEEnon, Spolium, zwetschenwasser, ortolan

College is fun if you don't have to worry about dying.

With 24 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[ZazieR]

Through to page fifty

I feel eternally behind, but when I read I don't feel like there is ever a lot of new content. I don't agree with the suspicions on Gorrad in these pages. In regards to lurking, that's fairly usual for him on day one and in regards to the name claim idea, I don't see that as a scum tell and much as just a dumb idea.

Jebus should be posting what he has by now rather than only saying how far he is in reading. It has been requested of him several times and he claims to have read those pages but not addressed the fact that he should post what he has so far.

I've gotten to the page where I mentioned that Kise lied about ever having been in a game when scum can day talk. That ongoing game from then is now complete and he was scum in that game who could daytalk, so there is no excuse for his statement in my opinion.

Jebus has been replaced.
And now that that game is over, SoG is right about that Kise was scum in a game in which scum could day talk.

[ZazieR]

Hold the hell up... I'm rolefishing somebody, who ALREADY outed his power? That's a laugh.

There''s a huge difference between being a real day-vig and a 1-shot day-vig.
So yes, asking what he will claim of the two is heavy rolefishing.

[ZazieR]

I've gotten to the page where I mentioned that Kise lied about ever having been in a game when scum can day talk. That ongoing game from then is now complete and he was scum in that game who could daytalk, so there is no excuse for his statement in my opinion.

I wanted you to read this thread and think I was oblivious to the QT, so I could appear townie. I won that game, as a matter of fact. Meta FTW

But not due to that. You were actually killed by the vengeful townie who got lynched day 1 .
And I''ll have to look back if this reason is valid

[ZazieR]

You are ruling out the possibility of scum day-talking? Also why is the fact this is day one rather than any other day relevant to whether you might be able to daytalk as scum? Also why do you find me pro-town?

I do rule out day-talking for mafia. I can't say I've been in a game where mafia were allowed to do that during day phases. And the relevance in this being day 1 is because I am trying to insinuate that we had no night zero, so scum should not have had any NP to talk to each other.

Yep, not buying the explanation.

[ZazieR]

I'm a bit overwhelmed by a game with so many players and that moves so fast.

If I know I'm innocent, it's not hypocritical to suspect others who show signs of potentially being guilty. A professional player who bulks up naturally has valid reasons to suspect other large professional baseball players of using steroids.

Hmm. Actually, your comparison makes sense. I'm just trying to decide if it applies in mafia too though...

I don’t know how well it applies either, but I chuckled at the comparison.

if I was feeling uncharitable I would say Kairyuu is trying to distance himself from a mislynch while tying himself to magnus_orion

Mhmm? You wonder if it applies, yet you do not address the part in which I state I think it''s not applicable in this scenario. Why''s that?
And explain why you included this quote from Orto, as the part above and the part beneath it, do not mention it at all.

[ZazieR]

Odd… did you somehow expect this claim or something… I know you felt him innocent, but myk being the day vig who killed mastin just checks out for you 100%...

Nice try. I haven't even said I believed his claim yet, nor did I say I thought the theory about Kairyuu was the most likely to be correct one (I qualified it at the time as ZazieR pointed out).

That part seemed to be aimed at Gorrad, not at you.

Votecount
mykonian - 11 (LlamaFluff, cateraction, Kise, magnus_orion, WeyounsLastClone, Stephoscope, Starbuck, MrBuddyLee, populartajo, Kairyuu, Benmage)
ZEEnon - 3 (Kmd4390, ZazieR, Lamont_Cranston)
Lamont_Cranston - 1 (Gorrad)
Not voting: cateraction, mykonian, Vi, Skruffs, semioldguy, Seraphim, ZEEnon, Spolium, zwetschenwasser, ortolan

A Shinigami with emotions? Bwahaha!

With 24 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[ZazieR]

So please explain why you pointed out what you said in the first quote.

I pointed it because it was the truth. The only other game I've been in with this many players was the one I was talking about, and you are welcome to go back and see how completely overwhelmed I was in it. I have been in other games that may technically be considered "large" here, but there were less players than in this one and they were far easier for me to keep up with.

I think you are trying a little too hard here. Your picking apart my steroids example just completely misses the point of it.

Not buying it, but I''m not allowed to say why.
Also, elaborate what''s wrong with my explanation why your example isn''t applicable.

But weren''t we talking about Myko
And what if the player who you accused turns up town instead of scum? Or Shinigami?

Yes, we were talking about mykonian...and I have been clear that I switched from ZEEnon because he had no momentum anymore and mykonian is still a promising lynch.

It will suck if I accuse someone and he or she isn't scum. Exactly what are you looking for here?

Because the example was about you and Myko. And in this quote you''re talking about ZEE regarding the example. Mistake?
I''m asking, because you''re saying that if Myko (I assume you meant him, and not ZEE) turns up scum, that that should make us wonder if you''d have bussed him. Yet, if he doesn''t turn up scum (pro-Kira in this case, as we don''t know if this applies for Shinigami), this ''argument'' isn''t valid. Which is why I asked, because you''re trying to look better using Myko''s (unknown) allignment.

[ZazieR]

Really still... that’s odd could you highlight exactly what about Zee makes him more scummy at this point in the game… I felt early suspicions were effectively answered.

Actually, I think I will really prefer a mykonian lynch now, as I don't think I buy his claim, but I'm waiting to hear more from him.

What do you want to hear from him?

[ZazieR]

Notice for those who care: I developed a killer fever headache over the course of the day, and have to renege on my earlier promise.

When I'm done failing at life I will let you know.

Did thinking about Super Hot Chick and her amazing *splash* show made you that hot that it gave you a fever, which resulted in a headache O.o?
I''m so sorry >.<

Please get better soon

[ZazieR]

I don''t know.
Myko really hammered on some players that we should destroy Death Notes. So I find it strange that he shoots somebody he thinks is town if he''s a dayvig. Especially when he states that he thinks Mastin would have been the lynch.

[ZazieR]

Lamont, do you believe Myko''s explanation and why?

[ZazieR]

Are you ignoring me, Benmage?

[ZazieR]

I agree. Myko''s claim doesn''t make sense.
He has a lot of explaining to do if he is the vig.

[ZazieR]

Orto and Lamont

Are you buying the claim? Yes or no is enough for now.
After Myko has explained, I''d like to hear the ''why'' if the answer is ''yes''.

[ZazieR]

Myko is, quite literally, on the verge of death. If he has anything to lose by claiming, I'd like to know.

Yeah obvious for this.

I agree with LC, lets hear who myk thinks is scum. I also don't think Mastin was 100% going to be the one lynched so myk definitely acted hastily. But I agree that Mastin's play was not helpful to the town. If I was the vig I'd of killed him way earlier....(Hmm thinking about being a day vig sounds to fun...kill during rvs?)

Your thoughts so far about what Myko has told about his claim, other than ''not buying''? Aka, why do you not buy it?

[ZazieR]

I also wanted to know if it was one-shot because I feel like Myk is too reckless to be vig.

Can you elaborate on this?

[ZazieR]

Myko, would you mind giving your flavor?

So you can figure out his character name? I'm against this.

Regarding this, Myko, can you perhaps explain why the kill was: ''Plugged Full of Holes''?

[ZazieR]

It's a stupid lynch though

We risk the fact he might actually be the vig whereas if he isn't he's going to die soon enough anyway. Plus we get more info from wagoning someone else to a claim. I don't like how myk hasn't voted for anyone though after his claim.

Normally, I agree. But due to the rules given in the serie regarding Death Notes, it will be a huge mystery what the scum can do and what they know. That''s why I still consider Myko as lynch.
Also, could you elaborate on the last sentence of the quote? Why don''t you like that?

[ZazieR]

Lynching a claimed vig is dumb: If he's a real vig, mafia will kill him. If he's mafia, the real vig will kill him. If he's an SK or fake claiming townie, BOTH groups will probably kill him.

What do you think he is and why?
Who do you see as suspicious and why?

[ZazieR]

Mod

- Please prod the following:
-ZEEnon
-Seraphim
-WLC

[ZazieR]

I first want some answers from Myko.

[ZazieR]

Myko, once again, can you explain why the kill is called: ''Plugged full with holes''?

[ZazieR]

Unvote, Vote Myko

you are not telling me you actually believe Llama when he said that this was a conveniant claim...

See the bolded in his previous post and explain that.

[ZazieR]

Myko, once again, can you explain why the kill is called: ''Plugged full with holes''?

I don't kill with a note. I like guns better.

Just claim your rolename.

[ZazieR]

and those view people who say I was coasting through the game, please check the activity of the people on my wagon. You cant be missing this, as I can count a few people who have done little but bandwagonning.

name em

You''ve gotta be kidding me...

[ZazieR]

Let me remind you of something! You ARE NOT confirmed, by any means.

What he meant is that the role is confirmable, as we had a daykill.

[ZazieR]

Myko, when you get back, claim your rolename.

[ZazieR]

Let me remind you of something! You ARE NOT confirmed, by any means.

no, I claimed the most confirmable role in town! can you strawman me more!?

How long after the fact did you claim it?

Why didn't you immediately claim it when it happened?


You = Scum

Why would a dayvig immediatly claim afterwards?

[ZazieR]

Rolename, Myko!