Phables: Death Note Mafia (Game Over)


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Post Post #243 (isolation #0) » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:38 am

Post by semioldguy »

TL;DR version:
Between the Mastin and magnus_orion argument, I find magnus_orion to be on the right side of things.
Mastin Post 40 wrote:But, uh, [Shinigami] kinda lose if lynched. Lose their death notes, lose the game.
Nowhere in the rules does it mention that Shinigami lose or don’t lose the game if they lose their Death Note.

(magnus_orion points this out in Post 45)

(Mastin addresses this in Post 49 by quoting the rule mention, but omits bolding the part “if they possess one” which could suggest that not all Shinigami are initially in possession of a Death Note. Conversely, in Post 40 he also says that he does not have a Death Note to his knowledge, but know we know the assumption he makes that Shinigami all have Death Notes. He knows that he claimed Shinigami and if he thought all Shinigami would have to have Death Notes, as per his Post 49, therefore must believe that he claimed having a Death Note, yet denied that in Post 40)

(magnus_orion touches on this in regards to Mastin’s assumption in Post 51)

(Mastin poorly refutes in Post 56. Mastin mentions role fishing when the supposed role fishing in question is only intended to fish for an anti-town role or knowledge in helping find anti-town roles. If Mastin believes this to be bad role fishing, he is also doing worse by asking magnus_orion speculative questions about roles)

(magnus_orion correctly points out in Post 58 that his accusation of role fishing is a misrepresentation)

(Mastin uses a craplogic defense in Post 59. The only role we know to have information about the Shinigami are the Shinigami, anything else is speculation. Endless speculation is not good for the town as it creates confusion among the town players where people takes sides of arguments that have no bearing on alignment, only different points of logic that are argument players can easily make from any alignment.)

(Mastin, in Post 93, says that magnus_orion’s reactions are scummy. I find his reactions to make sense, be logical and fall in line with the town win condition. The quickness of changing opinions is directly relevant to the occurrences in the game. In the early stages of the game it is much easier for opinions to rapidly change. This can be explained by the theory of relativity in that each post at the beginning of a game makes up a relatively larger percentage of the total game than later in the day when a single post makes up a much smaller percentage of the total game. This makes it more likely for a few posts to cause a greater change of opinion in the first few pages of a game and is not an unusual circumstance.)

(Mastin jumps to conclusions in Post 105. Not knowing who are the scum is not at all the same thing as not having suspicions. Town doesn’t ever know for sure who the scum are, someone who does know isn’t town. Also there is a false assumption Mastin makes in Post 105 that having a Death Note is indicative of being scum, when it is clear that Shinigami can also be in possession of Death Notes and are not scum. In Post 117 you don’t seem so sure of yourself in the same way you criticize here.)

(magnus_orion in Post 106 responds by pointing out how responding on bit by bit leads to misinterpretations, which I find to be true, and especially true of Mastin as he asks questions that are answered in other parts of the posts his is snipping apart, ignores sections of the post when addressing other and splits up sentences that combine to form an idea when neither half represents that idea on its own.)

(Mastin Post 110, your “scum trap” isn’t ensnaring players who are scum, it is ensnaring players who don’t agree with you, which is not a scum tell. Players voting for you or disagreeing with you does not make them scum.)

(Mastin jumps to more conclusions in Post 112. Magus_orion never said he was afraid of being bandwagoned, nor did I even get that implication from magnus_orion’s post, but Mastin is sticking those words into his mouth. Mastin also jumps to the conclusion that “It’s safer” automatically implied the person saying it, when I the more logical deduction was that his trap is safer because it is less likely to catch town in it, making it safer that way as in less likely to hurt the town; again putting words into magnus_orion’s mouth.)

(Mastin, in Post 119, mentions ignoring a player to be a scum tell. I agree with this, but I think it is inaccurate in regards to Lamont_Cranston as he believes that you have claimed an anti town rle and I see no reason to ignore someone who claims not to be playing for the town as anything they say can’t be trusted and only leads to people second guessing themselves later.)
ZEEnon Post 55 wrote:magnus_orion is quite the scummy player, jumping on every vote quite rapidly.
I read magnus_orion as pro-town as of this post.
ortolan Post 78 wrote: or he gets killed by the mafier and we end up in quite a pickle don't we.
What motivation would scum have to kill an unkillable player to remove a potential Death Note? Getting rid of all the Death Notes is the town win condition and I don’t know why scum would help us with the town win condition. If a player claims Shinigami, we should lynch them as that is the only way town can be sure to get rid of the potential Death Note.
ZazieR Post 143 wrote: At this moment, I say it has failed. Of the players who discussed it when I wasn't present, Magnus is the most town.

And I'd like to know why you didn't give any comments regarding Lamont's mod-kill question until Kai started discussing it.
ZazieR begins making good points when she joins the game.

(ZazieR points out a lot of Mastin’s hypocracies that I had been typing up, so I won’t bother to restate them unless Mastin ignores them or diverts in his response to them.)

-I’ve stopped writing comments as I continued reading, as trying to catch up all at once has burned me out slightly. I have read to the current post, but will have to go back soon with a clear mind to get a better idea about some of the more recent pages.
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Post Post #246 (isolation #1) » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:44 am

Post by semioldguy »

Lamont_Cranston is an easy mislynch and I don't think he should be the focus of our attention today. Mastin applies to this as well. Of the three wagons so far (Lamont_Cranston, Mastin and magnus_orion) I don't find any of them to be the correct lynch and think it would be easy for scum to slip onto those wagons without drawing suspicion to them.

Vote: mykonian
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Post Post #248 (isolation #2) » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:45 am

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Half the time I don’t even know what Mastin is talking about because his style of taking snippets of sentences takes away any context from the responses he gives. He doesn’t address anything as a whole, and when taken in parts things do not always retain the same stance or meaning that they have when together. It leads to easy misrepresentation and miscommunication. It is NOT a good scum hunting tactic because it’s nearly impossible to follow what you are saying or even verify its accuracy due to not being able to compare the tiny piece you quote in comparison to the larger picture or point that people are actually trying to make. A large amount of the quote snippets he makes and comments on is completely useless, without content and further distracts from and bogs down his own arguments.
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Post Post #250 (isolation #3) » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:47 am

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Mastin wrote:Semi's PBPA is rather selective. It fails to account for the majority of the thread, and is focusing WAY too much on only the two players.
If you read my post you will know why it fails to account for a majorty of the thread. The whole first five pages is largely centered around you and magnus_orion.

Votecount
Lamont_Cranston - 5 (Kairyuu, magnus_orion, ortolan,
Mastin
, Starbuck)
Mastin
- 4 (Lamont_Cranston, benmage, PhilyEc, zwetschenwasser)
magnus_orion - 3 (mykonian, Seraphim, ZEEnon)
mykonian - 2 (LlamaFluff,
semioldguy
)
benmage - 1 (Kmd4390)
ZEEnon - 1 (
ZazieR
)
Not voting:
cateraction
, Jebus, populartajo, Budja, Gorrad, Albert B. Rampage, Kise, Stephoscope, Spolium, WeyounsLastClone


Joined FBI in September 2001 and attained rank of special agent with unusual speed for a woman. Arrested perpetrator of the "Los Angeles BB Serial Murder Case" on August 22, 2002.


With 26 alive, it's 14 to lynch.
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Post Post #259 (isolation #4) » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Post by semioldguy »

Mastin wrote:
Semi wrote:I don't find any of them to be the correct lynch and think it would be easy for scum to slip onto those wagons without drawing suspicion to them.
So, what? We're wagonning scum; does it matter if scum can slip in?
I don't think any of those wagons will flip scum, but I think scum are on the wagons. If I thought any of the wagons were scum I wouldn't say that they were not the correct lynch.
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Post Post #262 (isolation #5) » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:09 pm

Post by semioldguy »

Mastin wrote:
Vote: mykonian
1: You failed to state your case on Myk,

2: This is hypocritical, for you're starting a bandwagon on Myk, an easy wagon as well.
1. I already mentioned one point against him, which I guess you missed. I'll post my case on him before the day is over, and if my case contradicts the point in time my vote was placed on him, then you can call me out on it.
2. How is it any easy wagon?
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Post Post #263 (isolation #6) » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:11 pm

Post by semioldguy »

Mastin wrote:
He doesn’t address anything as a whole
I can, but prefer not to. Dissecting gets better scum-hunting done.
It leads to easy misrepresentation and miscommunication.
As is quoting the whole thing.

If no matter what you do, you can still cause confusion, which method do you choose? I choose the method which gives greater detail.
Except your method gives less overall detail as it is so fragmented. You often don't even quote the whole sentence.
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Post Post #265 (isolation #7) » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:21 pm

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Mastin wrote:
It is NOT a good scum hunting tactic
It is to me--it's nailed scum every time I've used it. I imagine it'll nail scum in many more games to come.
because it’s nearly impossible to follow what you are saying or even verify its accuracy
You're one to talk.
Those two quotes of mine up there, that you separated... they belong together. Not separated. Together. As one sentence. They are not separated by a period or indentation or anything else. Anything I write as a complete paragraph all belongs together. hey are sentences and paragraphs for a reason. They all depend on each other to collectively get the entirety of the point a across and explain. You do this all the time and you not only miss the point others are making, but you don't get your own point accross as the things you say are in direct contradiction to each other if you read other people's posts and sentences as a whole.

You often take the first part of a sentence and question it, when the second half of the sentence answers the question you had of the first half.
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Post Post #266 (isolation #8) » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:23 pm

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mykonian wrote:1. Ctrl-F tells me that "myk", or "mykonian" was only used in your vote. As I am now, with reading I could have missed it, but I don't think you made a point against me.
The 'find' function does not answer all. I say in that post that I think it would be easy for scum to slip on the wagons of the three players I mention. You are on one of those wagons. And I will start with you.
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Post Post #267 (isolation #9) » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:27 pm

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Mastin wrote:This whole post seemed to be a bit of bashing at my scum hunting technique, discrediting it as worthless. "Is NOT a good scum hunting technique"-->Not worth looking at-->Not valuable.
A good scum hunting tactic is one that is only good to you, but one that others can also benefit from and follow along with as well. It doesn't do the town any good if you think you have scum but are unable to convince any of the town of that.

I am not bashing your scum hunting abilities, but your ability to present to the town. I even offered an explanation as to why this is, which you seem to have ignored. If you read that in combination with the rest of the sentence or paragraph maybe it would help you understand.
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Post Post #268 (isolation #10) » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:27 pm

Post by semioldguy »

EBWOP:
A good scum hunting tactic is
not
one that is only good to you, but one that others can also benefit from and follow along with as well.
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Post Post #449 (isolation #11) » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:04 am

Post by semioldguy »

@Kise
Please tone down the personal attacks.
ZazieR wrote:
semioldguy wrote:
Mastin wrote:
Vote: mykonian
1: You failed to state your case on Myk,

2: This is hypocritical, for you're starting a bandwagon on Myk, an easy wagon as well.
1. I already mentioned one point against him, which I guess you missed. I'll post my case on him before the day is over, and if my case contradicts the point in time my vote was placed on him, then you can call me out on it.
Why do you have troubles posting your case against Myko now?
Because, as already mentioned, reading this game all at once has drained me. The same reason I stopped a lot of my more specific comments toward some of the more recent pages in my last posts. You also mention a similar reason for not posting your case on ZEEnon later in Post 417.
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Post Post #458 (isolation #12) » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:36 am

Post by semioldguy »

Everyone is unvoted as of Mastin's death... the post count you see at the top of page 16 is not the mod's post count.
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Post Post #460 (isolation #13) » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:37 am

Post by semioldguy »

EBWOP:
"post count" should be "vote count"
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Post Post #461 (isolation #14) » Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:39 am

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Or rather the three people you see voting for Kise there are not actually voting for Kise. Looking at the Mod's vote count in red you can find those players' names all under "Not Voting." The vote count for Kise in that post was included by benmage.
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Post Post #854 (isolation #15) » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:19 am

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I should be catching up today while I am at work.
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Post Post #882 (isolation #16) » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:41 am

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Through to Page 25.
ZazieR 504 wrote:For clarification purposes, did you pick Myko randomly or not?
I did not pick him randomly.
ortolan 510 wrote:
semi (243) wrote:What motivation would scum have to kill an unkillable player to remove a potential Death Note?
So they get it. It's safer in their hands than in those of a neutral not sided with them. Tell me if you disagree.
I overlooked that, and I agree with your reasoning. Though that would be a reason to further support lynching them instead of letting a night kill take care of them.
ortolan 510 wrote: Why is semi spending so much time critiquing Mastin's play while not actually suspecting him?
Because I didn’t think Mastin’s play was indicative of alignment, but that it was very anti-town as his posting was causing more confusion that it was ever resolving and it was nearly impossible to follow his arguments because of the way he was posting.

Reasons for suspecting mykonian earlier: (a) He is saying that he is confused about why Mastin claimed, but didn’t seem to have any problem with the fact he claimed an anti-town role as he chose to keep his vote on someone else instead (Post 170 & 196). (b) Mentions that he votes in his first post only because he thinks it helps him look town and is giving himself a backdoor out of his vote (Post 216). (c) He expresses doubt that a third party would be on the bad side. If they don’t share the town win condition, then I don’t think it should be assumed that they would have the town’s best interests in mind (Post 219).

Still leaning toward a vote on Mykonian at this point. Will decide on my vote when I am fully caught up.
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Post Post #1230 (isolation #17) » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:36 am

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Through to page thirty, should be catching up before too long. Will be making a short-ish post every five pages.
ZazieR wrote:
Semi wrote:Lamont_Cranston is an easy mislynch and I don't think he should be the focus of our attention today. Mastin applies to this as well. Of the three wagons so far (Lamont_Cranston, Mastin and magnus_orion) I don't find any of them to be the correct lynch and think it would be easy for scum to slip onto those wagons without drawing suspicion to them.
(Though after checking the quote again, it should actually say: 'why do you think they are easy wagons, and how come that makes them not scum to you?')
I've played with Lamont_Cranston previously and he was an easy lynch target in that game and flipped town. Mastin was playing in a way that I feel is very anti-town, also from a previous game I played with him. I don't think they are scum because they both fit town play I've seen from them.

People are speculating whether or not Kira have death notes… read the rules:
The Rules wrote: Any scum player possessing a Death Note is Kira. There can be multiple Kiras, even at the same time, and there even can be no Kiras.
If they have a Death Note and are scum, they are Kira. If they don’t have a Death Note and are scum, they aren’t Kira. There is a difference between scum and Kira, please don’t use them interchangeably.

Kise is lying in 728 about never having been in a game where scum can day talk. He is in one of those games now where scum daytalk is public knowledge (5P Venegeful Setup).
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Post Post #1235 (isolation #18) » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:50 am

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Through page thirty-five now.

Still not liking Mykonian and I agree that his voting seemingly because he was asked about not addressing something earlier doesn't reflect well upon him.

There seems to be some discussion about Shinigami vs. Scum. I think, given a choice between the two, it makes more sense to go for the player you think is scum before going for the player you think is Shinigami as far as a lynch is concerned. Scum wagons can help to find links among all the scum partners, a shinigami is not aligned with any partners so a lynch on them is not as likely to give us information. If we lynch scum, that player dies. If they held a death note, they no longer hold it and can never hold one again since they are dead. If we lynch the Shinigami first, they lose their death note, but they don't die. Which means they could get another death note as the game continues on. Lynching the Shinigami second gives that player less time until the end of the game to reacquire a death note.

Lynching scum both eliminates an anti-town role and has the possibility of removing a Death Note. Lynching Shinigami has the possibility of removing a death note, but will not eliminate an anti-town role. Both have the possibility of destroying a death note, but only a scum lynch will reduce the number of anti-town roles.
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Post Post #1354 (isolation #19) » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:31 am

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Through to page 40 now.

Not a whole lot to comment on here. There is a lot of speculation in these which I feel is not very useful. There are a lot of people complaining about the rate of this game, which I sympathize with and find much more useful. Not only does slowing down help the players who need to catch up, but it will help the select group of really active players to have more than just themselves to focus on. The very active players, by choosing not to slow down, are also actively choosing to disregard at least half the players in this game by allowing them to slip by unnoticed; whether they are the ones who actually want to catch up or the ones just using that excuse for their convenience to slip by.
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Post Post #1356 (isolation #20) » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:57 pm

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Up to page 45

It's the same people talking amongst themselves that make up less than a third of the players in this game. And as I am reading it seems to me that they are constantly recycling most of the same points over and over. These players are never going to convince a majority to side with their lynch because they are keeping the majority from being able to catch up and become active in the discussion while they aren't ever going to get anywhere themselves because they are running in circles.

Currently I am gaining suspicions on the players who are voting but have done nothing to discussion other than putting a vote on one of the wagons that the active players are pushing. It seems like a good tactic for scum to do this as they can contribute to a lynch that they like without having to make their presence known in the thread and by the time most players do catch up they will see wagons with a lot more votes on them than is representative of the number of player vocally supporting a case against those players.
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Post Post #1852 (isolation #21) » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:25 am

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Through to page fifty

I feel eternally behind, but when I read I don't feel like there is ever a lot of new content. I don't agree with the suspicions on Gorrad in these pages. In regards to lurking, that's fairly usual for him on day one and in regards to the name claim idea, I don't see that as a scum tell and much as just a dumb idea.

Jebus should be posting what he has by now rather than only saying how far he is in reading. It has been requested of him several times and he claims to have read those pages but not addressed the fact that he should post what he has so far.

I've gotten to the page where I mentioned that Kise lied about ever having been in a game when scum can day talk. That ongoing game from then is now complete and he was scum in that game who could daytalk, so there is no excuse for his statement in my opinion.
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Post Post #2075 (isolation #22) » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:12 am

Post by semioldguy »

Votecount
Stephoscope - 2 (LlamaFluff, Kmd4390)
Kise - 2 (MrBuddyLee, Benmage)
Starbuck - 1 (Vi)
Benmage - 1 (ZEEnon)
Not voting: ortolan, zwetschenwasser, Kairyuu, mykonian, magnus_orion, populartajo, Gorrad, Skruffs, Starbuck, Kise, Seraphim, Stephoscope, ThAdmiral, WeyounsLastClone, Lamont_Cranston


First, I want you to give me everything you know about the SPK and there movements from now on.


With 24 alive, it's 11 to lynch.
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