Wheel of Time Mafia: Rip in the Pattern (GAME OVER)

[julienvonwolfe]

How do the locations work? What impact do they actually have on the game?

I'm curious, as I don't think I've played in a game with locations before.

[julienvonwolfe]

Referring to the arguments pre-game, I didn't feel comfortable with people talking before, I think it only leads to people having bias before the game even kicked off.

So what do you think of those players who have played each other in other games?

The scum know who the other scum are, and because of that it isn't difficult for them to work out who the Aes Sedai are through process of elimination if people are asked to tell the truth.
IF we must force people to answer questions, we need to stop asking stupid questions like "Are you scum?".

I'm not smart enough to come up with decent questions though...

I'm not sure that I follow your logic here. Why would asking 'are you scum' be so harmful? In addition, your method of roundly criticizing others yet not contributing any 'decent questions' yourself strikes me as decidedly scummy.

You're right...it can't hurt.

Also, I have the town win condition and do not win in any other way.

I have the town win condition and do not win any other way.

[julienvonwolfe]

Its rather simple. Just because the sentence NOW doesn't out power roles or Aes Sedai, it doesn't mean that a sentence in the future won't. Starting down this path of "lets make everyone say the same thing" will only out the people who can't lie (Aes Sedai) later. How can you not see that?

I don't think we did this in the last game. We all claimed town and then figured out that it was a bit pointless.

[julienvonwolfe]

It wasn't a mess of a post, it actually makes sense, Cyberbob.
Why?
Aes Sedai have to tell the truth and darkfriends have to lie, so we can use that to our advantage.

How?

Maybe later in the game if we find a player is AS, we can examine their posts as we will have had assurance that they were not lying.

At this point, though, you'd have to out the AS to use the fact that they're not lying, and outing them at this point is dumb.

[julienvonwolfe]

Yep, flavor.

Semia Chesmady, the town wisdom.
I have the active ability to heal a person, I'm a doctor.
I have the passive ability to detect when someone else weaves the power, but I can not tell alignment.

I have never been tutored in how to channel the power, so I can unlock abilities later if I find a certain Aes Sedai to train me.
I can unlock the ability to still someone with the help of other Aes Sedai, but I can't do it yet.

The first part checks with the books, as some town wisdoms can channel.

I don't like the last part, though. An Aes Sedai in the books wouldn't just teach any old person to channel. Look at what Moirane did with Egwene in book one. She bundled her off to the tower to be a novice!

But Spyrex seems to be be backing it up, so I believe this claim for now.

Fabian - have you "detected" any weaving of the Pattern so far?

A pedantic note: this should be 'weaving of the power'.



About Spyrex: my first thought was that he was claiming to have VD's role from the mini - eventual SK. However, that would require channeling Saidin, not Saidar. There is no risk of him going mad from using Saidar.

[julienvonwolfe]

I've always hated those terms. - too damn close.

Let me make it clear: I am a man. Using the man-half. You know, the crazy half.

I have no reason to believe my role will change. It may, but who knows? There's not even an inkling I'm anything like an SK, yet.

*facepalm*

[julienvonwolfe]

Time for me to re-read the mini to see what VD's role was like.

[julienvonwolfe]

You will also work with us in order to prove your honesty and your towniness, up until the point when you become an SK, and then we can gentle you.

I would agree with everything up to this bit - would gentling an insane man make him a townie? Judging by the books, I'm not sure. Best to gentle him before he becomes an SK, though I'm not sure how much time we have. I would say that to be on the safe side, he can only channel twice before we gentle him.

Well if the insane man stays sane and helps I guess it is ok. However, I do worry about the future. Extra kills means less lynches/investigations/days, and these kills are more likely to be town then scum based on sheer numbers. What/who gentles?

I'm sorry, what extra kills?

[julienvonwolfe]

Yep, flavor.

Semia Chesmady, the town wisdom.
I have the active ability to heal a person, I'm a doctor.
I have the passive ability to detect when someone else weaves the power, but I can not tell alignment.

I have never been tutored in how to channel the power, so I can unlock abilities later if I find a certain Aes Sedai to train me.
I can unlock the ability to still someone with the help of other Aes Sedai, but I can't do it yet.

The first part checks with the books, as some town wisdoms can channel.

I don't like the last part, though. An Aes Sedai in the books wouldn't just teach any old person to channel. Look at what Moirane did with Egwene in book one. She bundled her off to the tower to be a novice!

But Spyrex seems to be be backing it up, so I believe this claim for now.

Right, I'm revisiting my assessment of Fabian and, since Spyrex's channeling is now irrelevant to Fabian's claim, I'm no longer so sure that I believe Fabian's claim. Hrm.

OK, about Spyrex. If we gentle him, going by the last game, that's two Aes Sedai tonight who must abandon their healing/warding/whatever and gentle Spyrex. Assuming that his role is like the male channeler from the last game, we will have lost a town power role, lost the risk of an SK being in the game, and gained a confirmed vanilla townie. I think that this will be worth it in the long run.

However, a thought I had: could scum claim male channeler, get the Aes Sedai to 'gentle' them (which would presumably have no effect), and thus tie up power roles for a night, and assume 'confirmed innocent' status for the rest of the game?

[julienvonwolfe]

Oh fun, exact same situation as last game from day 1. And I get to ask the same questions:

...

(JVW, you may be experiencing deja vu. Don't worry, that's normal.)

Yes

It's fairly obvious that Albert either asked his partner their rolename or looked it up in a role PM.

Correct me if I am wrong but did not ABR just break the 1st oath here and thus lost his powers?

Your eagerness to see a claimed Aes Sedai lose their power is stunning. I also note that you don't at any point accuse him of lying about his roleclaim, so clearly you believe he is Aes Sedai and you wish him ill. You're literally slavering.

You previously obsessed over an SK (borderline antitown) and tried to find out if Albert used his powers today (borderline antitown).

Looks like something good may have come of Albert's retardedness after all.

vote: Sajin

I'm not sure I agree here. When I claimed Aes Sedai in the mini, people checked my posts for inconsistencies with the oaths. It's a way of testing the claim, which is pro-town.

That you're against this makes me suspicious of you.

[julienvonwolfe]

Geez this game moves fast. I'll have to catch up tonight.

[julienvonwolfe]

RE Fabian's claim: can somebody who's also familiar with the books tell me if they think that I'm barking up the wrong tree with my assessment of Fabian's claim? I just can't believe that an Aes Sedai would teach someone who's not even a novice how to do something as drastic as stilling.

I don't like the last part, though. An Aes Sedai in the books wouldn't just teach any old person to channel. Look at what Moirane did with Egwene in book one. She bundled her off to the tower to be a novice!

About ABR:

I agree with Sajin on examining ABR for lies. MBL, what makes you think the mod will wait for players to 'draw attention' to lies? If he's Black Ajah, it'll become clear pretty quickly in that context (once we get a functional mod again). "I dunno." is problematic, but post 353 is worse:.

No, we are certain that he will be an SK. All male AS become SKs.

Now, it's possible (maybe even probable) that we won't be told if ABR loses his powers. But his posts have NOT been in line with what I would expect from someone bound by the Three Oaths, i.e. parsed carefully and written with exactitude. He's shooting from the hip.

Based on my experience as an AS from the last game - Kinetic checked my every word for lies - for example, he investigated whether I lied about whether the Aes Sedai could talk pre-game. Also, Kai and Isacc analysed me using psychology to try and detect lies.

ABR, to my eyes, is crossing the boundaries of truth and is clearly not bound by the oaths. Thus, he is either not Aes Sedai, in which case he is a liar, or he is of the Black Ajah. ABR needs to die.

@SK 555, I do not feel stupid, I do not want to unvote you. You still want to attempt to confirm stuff, yet I do not think it would be confirmed with your logic. I read it as an attempt to get more abilities out in the open which helps the most informed the most - the scum. Your still rolefishing.

I agree.

[julienvonwolfe]

What??????? That's BS. I have NEVER LIED. Misdirection, yes, but I never lied.

ALL MALE AS INEVITABLY GO MAD. Say it with me Shadow Knight. ALL MALE AS GO MAD, aka turn into SKs. This is my belief, backed by evidence from the wiki.

This crap about being able to resist longer doesn't hold any water. THEY WILL GO MAD.

You have no right to suspect me when any broad statement like that is easily verifiable by Shadow Knight who can't lie either.

Not if they are gentled, or die first, or they manage to channel untainted Saidin (though I admit the last could be tricky).

[julienvonwolfe]

My ability is Lesser Detect Saidar, it's passive.
It says that my power is not flawless so I am specifically told that I can not tell who cast or who it targetted, just that people are weaving.

I assume the lesser part is tied in with my Old Blood ability, but I have no idea, because I'm told next to nothing about that.

Sorry, I'm sure you've been asked before - how familiar are you with the books?

[julienvonwolfe]

Not if they are gentled, or die first, or they manage to channel untainted Saidin (though I admit the last could be tricky).

To clarify: not if they are gentled

before they go mad

, or die first, etc.

[julienvonwolfe]

If what I said is what I believe, then there is no lie.

What did you think of this bit from the wiki page on Saidin?

With this in mind, members of the Aes Sedai formed a faction, the Red Ajah, dedicated to the hunting down and gentling of male channelers before they can cause (much) trouble.

[julienvonwolfe]

RE Fabian's claim: can somebody who's also familiar with the books tell me if they think that I'm barking up the wrong tree with my assessment of Fabian's claim? I just can't believe that an Aes Sedai would teach someone who's not even a novice how to do something as drastic as stilling.

It's got to be game flavour.
In the books we had Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne. Elayne was always bound to join them, but Nynaeve was a town wisdom with the power, like myself.

Game flavour... hmm. I don't really see why it should be different from the books. Unless Aes Sedai were less strict about teaching then? (Somehow I don't think so)

To answer your later question in another post, I've read the first 3 books, working on the 4th, but I am aware of some things that happen in later books.
I try not to find out too much or I'll spoil them for myself.

*snip*

There is no such thing as untainted Saidan JVW, not 500 years before the books.

Well, there's always the Eye of the World.

If he isn't gentled he will go insane, the fact that he already told us he was insane backs the claim up.
If a man is gentled and cut off from the power, even before he goes insane, he'll feel dead inside, like something is missing.

I'm not disputing that he will go insane if not gentled, and I don't quite see how the second part is relevant.

Also, I'm not sure what you're getting at with the Red Ajah angle.
Are you wondering if it's ABRs flavour to have to lynch claimed male channelers?
That in no way makes him scum, Red Ajah are what they are.

Okay. The sequence of events:

1) ABR said that all male AS go mad (the pedantic voice inside me insists that after the breaking there are no male AS, merely men who can channel).

2) I pointed out that this wasn't always true. This is important, as if ABR was lying, he broke the oath binding him to truthfulness.

3) ABR countered with "If what I said is what I believe, then there is no lie."

4) I went to the wiki page, which ABR appears to have used as the authority for his argument, and examined it to see if I could see why he apparently believed what he did. In doing so, I found the quote that might have indicated that not all men who can channel necessarily go mad, if they are gentled first. This was the Red Ajah quote.

ABR said that he hadn't read it.

In all fairness, I don't think that the wiki article is the best possible.

[julienvonwolfe]

If he isn't gentled he will go insane, the fact that he already told us he was insane backs the claim up.
If a man is gentled and cut off from the power, even before he goes insane, he'll feel dead inside, like something is missing.

I'm not disputing that he will go insane if not gentled

EBWOP: This should be "I'm not disputing that he will go insane if not gentled or lynched"

[julienvonwolfe]

I'm sorry that I've not been here, I've been working on an assignment.

[julienvonwolfe]

That's...interesting, to say the least. The Wheel of Time lover inside me is trying to figure out what cool role that would imply lol, but the mafia-player thinks it's probably best that you don't tell yet.

Aelfinn/Eelfinn is the only thing that springs to mind as being not obviously lightfearing or darkfriend.

*shrugs*

[julienvonwolfe]

I'm really sorry that I haven't been here. Been ultra busy with university stuff lately. I'll catch up tomorrow night or the day after.

[julienvonwolfe]

I slept in the silo last night.

Also, I'm not sure what you're getting at with the Red Ajah angle.
Are you wondering if it's ABRs flavour to have to lynch claimed male channelers?
That in no way makes him scum, Red Ajah are what they are.

Okay. The sequence of events:

1) ABR said that all male AS go mad (the pedantic voice inside me insists that after the breaking there are no male AS, merely men who can channel).

To be wholly pedantic, we're right after the War of Power, so there's two types of male Aes Sedai right now - Forsaken and crazymen.

I stand corrected.

@all: I do not like the looks of Slicey right now. As soon as he is challenged, he backpedals immensely.

vote: Slicey

Reasons somewhere in the last page or two.

@all: We need more pressure on Slicey-scum. Preferably just the right amount of pressure to see him swing.

In fact, Slicey needs more votes. You guys should be voting Slicey, as, you know, he's scum and needs to die.

and I have been after Slicey since I declared intent during Twilight.

Hence, my attack is consistant

...

This is everything I found, the entirety of your "attack" on Slicey, one mention of backpedaling and a bunch of appeals to join you, which is akin to you standing off to the side of the gallows, jumping up and down, waving your arms frantically and shouting "HEY GUYS LOOK OVER HEEEERE"...

But hey, at least your "attack is consistant", nothing to see here right... you keep taking shots at the V/LA's, good sir.

Heh. Heheheheheheheheh! Brilliant! Someone who wants to argue semantics! It's been SOOO long since I've found someone willing to do that. This should be FUN!

You know, Kai is bugging me in this game. He wants to argue semantics, which I think is completely useless, and he was pushing for a Slicey lynch based on almost nothing.

But I'm not sure that he's my top subject. I'm going to read through the last few pages again and try to get a handle on the game - I'm more used to minis than games this size.

[julienvonwolfe]

More assignments. Ugh.

Since a blacksmith isn't an Aes Sedai, either there's a Masonic Majority^TM out there, or that's awfully coincidental.

Can you elaborate on this a bit more? What do you mean by Masonic Majority?

[julienvonwolfe]

Hmm, Gholam is plausible in a way for SK - there's one chasing Mat all through the last few books, and it seems to be working alone.

Then again, it is clearly on the side of the Shadow, since the Shadow created it and (I think) ordered it to kill Mat.

[julienvonwolfe]

My partner claims he gentled Spyrex last night.

I have reason to believe that SK's partner also attempted to gentle Spyrex. SK might have gentled him too. I believe Spyrex for now.

Slicey, I had a quick look through ABR's posts and these would seem to represent the opposite point of view to the one you attribute to him.

What were you referring to?

[julienvonwolfe]

I'm trying to put more time into this game now, even though study continues unabated.

Vote: Mufasa

I don't have a list of 3 suspects right now spryex

Mufasa is basically saying that they can't be bothered playing. Pathetic, and worthy of a lynch.


As for Slicey: I can understand this wagon, but at least he's actually doing something (or said that he would).

As for Kairyuu, I think his attack on me is

horrible

but I don't feel it as a scum tell.

This quote strikes me as odd, though. It might be that they're scumbuddies together.

[julienvonwolfe]

As for Slicey: I can understand this wagon, but at least he's actually doing something (or said that he would).

I'm noting that you seem to be ignoring the actual quality of content in question, but rather choose to judge the quantity. Which points against Slicey do you agree with?

Juvenilewolf? Nice.

Perhaps ironically, Slicey sums it up quite nicely in his latest post.

- 45th post - I have some ideas who scum are, and thus why I plan on making cases for them. I wanted SpyreX vigged because I thought he wasn’t gentled yet (at that point, I was still only on Day 1). JVW informed he was gentled, and thus he now doesn’t need to be vigged. And I didn’t comment on D1 because of my V/LA.

*snip*

- Crap reason for voting me (expressing who I think is scum as I'm reading and me wanting Spyre dead because I didn't realize he was gentled.)

I don't like or understand the way he was happy to call for a vig kill while not being up-to-date. It just creates the impression that he's playing, when in fact he's being entirely unhelpful.

[julienvonwolfe]

As for Slicey: I can understand this wagon, but at least he's actually doing something (or said that he would).

Can or can't understand the wagon?

Can. I didn't like the way he called for a vig kill. However, I like Mufasa less.


I haven't looked at the thread for the past few days - I'll make another post tonight or tomorrow after catching up.

[julienvonwolfe]

I'm having to beg for your patience here while school kicks my ass, so this isn't much of a post. Anyway:

As for Slicey: I can understand this wagon, but at least he's actually doing something (or said that he would).

Can or can't understand the wagon?

Can. I didn't like the way he called for a vig kill. However, I like Mufasa less.


I haven't looked at the thread for the past few days - I'll make another post tonight or tomorrow after catching up.

This guy is so OBVIOUSLY SCUM. MBL, your "minion obeying his forsaken overlords" applies so perfectly to this guy's behavior. julienvonwolfe is scum people.

Can you elaborate a bit more? Who am I supposedly obeying? What is the evidence that I am obeying them? You confuse me.

[julienvonwolfe]

Currently V/LA until Monday, been busy with moving out and driving back, and tomorrow is Mother's Day

Let us not forget fuzzy, who has not posted in a while.

[julienvonwolfe]

EBWOP: well, perhaps it's not so bad depending on his timezone; it's Wednesday afternoon, but it's probably still Tuesday in the USA if he's there.

[julienvonwolfe]

And in the middle of the night, Abel washes himself in the moonlit river.

I noticed that KoC and Isaac suddenly eclipsed themselves to talk in a quicktopic thread following my claim.

Can we revisit this?

Serial killers don't usually night talk do they?

Aes Sedai can't lie, can they?

What's this all about?

[julienvonwolfe]

@JVW He could say that just fine if he believed it at the time. Why would you bring up these comments now?

Vote JVW

From my experience as an Aes Sedai in the last game, I would've thought that it would be a bad comment to make.

Sure, he may have believed it, but without explaining why he believes it, it's a reckless comment if not a flat-out lie.

To my reading, his wording only leaves one possible explanation if he is town: that he detected out-of-thread communication between Isacc & KoC. However, this seems unlikely to me as Isacc was an SK.

[julienvonwolfe]

As for Flay's claim... I'm not totally sold on it. Does it make sense flavor wise for a horse trader to be a lie detector? And plus, there's no way to really prove it until whoever Flay checked dies.

It's plausible. Horse traders in the books are the WoT's car salesmen and are used to negotiating and haggling (see their dealings with Mat). So, I could see this extending to lie detection.

I confess that I don't understand why Flay is holding back his information, though.


ABR: No reply to these posts?

And in the middle of the night, Abel washes himself in the moonlit river.

I noticed that KoC and Isaac suddenly eclipsed themselves to talk in a quicktopic thread following my claim.

Can we revisit this?

Serial killers don't usually night talk do they?

Aes Sedai can't lie, can they?

What's this all about?

@JVW He could say that just fine if he believed it at the time. Why would you bring up these comments now?

Vote JVW

From my experience as an Aes Sedai in the last game, I would've thought that it would be a bad comment to make.

Sure, he may have believed it, but without explaining why he believes it, it's a reckless comment if not a flat-out lie.

To my reading, his wording only leaves one possible explanation if he is town: that he detected out-of-thread communication between Isacc & KoC. However, this seems unlikely to me as Isacc was an SK.

[julienvonwolfe]

Flay is looking very scummy, because he has been caught lying. I'm willing to vote or be the hammer, but for the fact that we seem to be waiting for twilight actions?


For the record, I'm not liking benmage:

No, I'm not waiting for Flay's response. Think about it. Do you really think it makes sense for me to

seriously

ask Flay to lie-detect me when I state that Flay has lied to us about his role? I think it was pretty obvious that I was being sarcastic. I don't care WHAT Flay says about his so-called "lie detection" ability,

because I still believe he is scum

. We should be voting him because there is concrete evidence contradicting his claim, not waiting around for supposed posting contradictions that aren't really good tells in the first place.

You believe him to be scum, or you know him to be scum? I think it is a waste to out a cop role, but this seems like what your claiming.

No need to respond to the cop claim or whatnot. At this point there is some pretty substantial evidence against Flay, and I'm willing to vote him. I'm withholding because I am interested to hear about his results...for whatever it may do...That and we have such a high rate of inactivity at the moment it is deplorable??

Fuzzy, Mufasa,Goat, Ooz, MBL, Seraphim whats up guys??

What does your last sentence mean? Are you trying to say that we shouldn't lynch Flay because they're inactive?

And rolefishing. Ugh.


And I don't like ABR, who is consistently ignoring my posts asking him for a response to what I think is a lie:

ABR: No reply to these posts?

And in the middle of the night, Abel washes himself in the moonlit river.

I noticed that KoC and Isaac suddenly eclipsed themselves to talk in a quicktopic thread following my claim.

Can we revisit this?

Serial killers don't usually night talk do they?

Aes Sedai can't lie, can they?

What's this all about?

@JVW He could say that just fine if he believed it at the time. Why would you bring up these comments now?

Vote JVW

From my experience as an Aes Sedai in the last game, I would've thought that it would be a bad comment to make.

Sure, he may have believed it, but without explaining why he believes it, it's a reckless comment if not a flat-out lie.

To my reading, his wording only leaves one possible explanation if he is town: that he detected out-of-thread communication between Isacc & KoC. However, this seems unlikely to me as Isacc was an SK.

[julienvonwolfe]

ABR, you're staying in? Can you please answer the questions that I've been trying to ask you this whole time?

[julienvonwolfe]

Holy post storm. I slept in the silo.

I've been inactive this past week due to three assignments. Hopefully, I'm past the worst. I'll read up.

[julienvonwolfe]

So he's claiming neutral, non-pro-town, gambler-pimp-roleblocker, with night actions that don't add up and a win condition he has yet to actually explain?

Seems that I was right about Mufasa yesterday, then.

Vote: Mufasa

And ABR, for fuck's sake, give some indication that you've even noticed my question please?

And I don't like ABR, who is consistently ignoring my posts asking him for a response to what I think is a lie:

ABR: No reply to these posts?

And in the middle of the night, Abel washes himself in the moonlit river.

I noticed that KoC and Isaac suddenly eclipsed themselves to talk in a quicktopic thread following my claim.

Can we revisit this?

Serial killers don't usually night talk do they?

Aes Sedai can't lie, can they?

What's this all about?

@JVW He could say that just fine if he believed it at the time. Why would you bring up these comments now?

Vote JVW

From my experience as an Aes Sedai in the last game, I would've thought that it would be a bad comment to make.

Sure, he may have believed it, but without explaining why he believes it, it's a reckless comment if not a flat-out lie.

To my reading, his wording only leaves one possible explanation if he is town: that he detected out-of-thread communication between Isacc & KoC. However, this seems unlikely to me as Isacc was an SK.

[julienvonwolfe]

I slept at the Silo.

ABR, by now, would have drawn an investigation and it would have came out if he was guitly.

Statements like this one remind me of the last game, where town was taken in by a godfather.

[julienvonwolfe]

argh 8 pages to read.

[julienvonwolfe]

I would like people to speculate on which kill methods they think could have involved the use of the One Power. I think incineration could, and dismemberment could as well, although not always (since some were likely Isacc's kills). I'm not so sure that strangling and poisoning are One Power kill methods.

All could involve the OP at some point. Channelers can conjure fireballs, hence incineration. They can use Air to move things, so can presumably pull people apart, causing dismemberment.

I recall Aes Sedai in Salidar being strangled, or at least suffocated with the power - Anaiya, I think, was one, though I recall that her neck was also broken. I might need to read the books again.

Poisoning might be almost easier to pull off without the power, since I don't think that channelers can conjure up poison. They would need real poison first, and then they could use the power to give it to a person, either through a medium like food or drink, or by force.



MBL, what made you decide that Benmage read like disgusted town? I ask because I don't consider Benmage's claim to indicate that he is town.

Benmage reads like disgusted town but he's also unfunny and not helpful. Let's see who else wants to run him up.

unvote

Also, why the sudden attack on MoS?

Who ever woulda hammered me unclaimed would've been the worst towns player ever or obvious scum. So finding a scum woul've been good. I should've hammered myself outta spite, but doubt an AS could do that plus I think was only L-2.

This makes me go WTF.

@mos - if there's a darkfriend scum group, WoT flavor would indicate they wouldn't be channelers. My best guess - dismemberment is done by darkfriends sans the OP. Also, I could totally see a black Ajah poisoning someone.

Why does WoT flavour indicate that they're not channelers?

Also, is it really necessary for Sajin to claim his full role? I could maybe see him claiming color, but I see no reason for the scum to be informed as to his abilities.

Vote: ABR

That was some really suspicious rolefishing for something we didn't need to know...and it almost worked.

I agree with this.

Finally, this whole batch of setup discussion. Who prompted it? Kairyuu in 2179?

[julienvonwolfe]

Okay. Black Ajah = darkfriend Aes Sedai, just to be sure.

[julienvonwolfe]

Hi guys! How about this, let's not lynch an Aes Sedai. WADDYASAY?!

This works if there are no Black Ajah.

Ohh and for completeness:

Macavity, KoC, JVW, Benmage, Kai, Yos, ABR, Goat, Sajin, MBL - Can I get your Night 2 sleeping locations

*shrug*

Silo.

... But, you are saying you do have something that would make ABR's statement about White Ajah and "vote manipulation" be, in fact, a true statement?

Yes. Let me slightly amend my above statement: I do not have direct control over adding or subtracting votes

on

any player.

Surely your own personal vote would count?

Aggression towards Spryex faded because I was sure we could lynch him at a later point, as even he believes it would be unwise to have him survive this game.

We're up to day five. When is it a good time to get rid of him, would you say?

[julienvonwolfe]

Hypothesis A:
Benmage has taken about 30 distinct anti-town acts. That's because he is scum, and he should be put down promptly.

Hypothesis B:
Benmage has taken about 30 distinct anti-town acts. He's town and he needs to learn to play this game, so he should be encouraged to simmer down, watch, and learn for a bit.

May I ask which hypothesis you endorse? Surely you didn't go through all that work simply to indulge in WIFOM at the end of it?

I need the following people to comment on whether or not they will go along with the partial massclaim:

4. julienvonwolfe

I would be willing to participate in a partial massclaim.

I believe ABR is a roleblocker. I just think he has lied to many times to be anything but black ajah. I have to parse everything I type carefully in order to not be penalized yet he seems to not really be following them at all and has misstated ability usages and statements by other people a couple of times and he still has his powers?

This is certainly how I felt in the last game, when I was Aes Sedai.

However, the impression I have of Aes Sedai in this game is that Kinetic is judging whether or not there was an intent to deceive, which I am a tad frustrated by, and I am wondering how he judges this.

Sorry for basically disappearing. I'm busy today but will hopefully have a chance to catch up tonight/early tomorrow.

How's that going, then?

What did SpyreX do to confirm himself as actually having been a channeler in the first place? If there is a claim, I want those who stilled (or w/e) him to come forward with some notification of success, as I'm starting to wonder if its possible for a scum to have just run the gambit claim D1.

Despite the whole thing with Flay and the Jester? I'm unclear as to your thoughts on the setup, but do you think that possible multiple scumgroups would affect this?

Happy birthday

[julienvonwolfe]

I am Aes Sedai.

KoC next.

[julienvonwolfe]

Mod, should the title of this thread be "Day Four"?

[julienvonwolfe]

Yes, I'm Yos' partner.

I'm pissed, shoulda just made me a VT...to many AS who was i suppose to bond...

Why can you not bond Aes Sedai? Spoilers might follow, but:

Elayne bonded Aviendha in the books, so women channelers can bond women channelers.

Asha'man bonded Aes Sedai in the books, so Aes Sedai can be bonded.

Anything I'm missing?

I'm starting to think your claim is a bit fishy.

[julienvonwolfe]

Julianwolfe has been kind of flying under the radar in the thread as well. I'd be interested to hear more from him, especally about who he suspects; looking back at his posts, I'm not really sure who he suspects today.

I don't know if I'm being overawed by my partner's reputation on this site, but he seems pro-town to me. As to who I suspect, I think that we have at least two people who are probably scum:

- Benmage: Claims a Green Ajah role that doesn't fit the books, and asks us to conclude that this is because:

Also, because that is so completely opposite how it happens in the book, (Rand was bonded against his will by what's-her-name sedai) I'm very skeptical of your claim.

As good as Kinetic has done, this setup is by no means 100% bookish.

To me, that has more than a hint of begging the question.

I think MBL brought up good points about Benmage, though I don't think he answered my question that I asked him.


- ABR: I've felt throughout the game that he's been getting away with lying, but my attempt at showing this seemed to not meet everyone's satisfaction. In fact, Sajin voted me for it. On that basis, if ABR flips scum, I wouldn't be surprised if Sajin was scum with him. Perhaps I'm just being retaliatory.

[julienvonwolfe]

JVW: Have you ever used the One Power in game (not counting twilight 2)?

The only reason I ask this question is because his answer could directly reveal lying scum.

Yes, I have.

I think MBL brought up good points about Benmage, though I don't think he answered my question that I asked him.

I don’t recall not answering any questions…which were these?

I meant, MBL hasn't answered.

@JVW- I voted you for it because your timing for voting that was incredibly convenient to get pressure off you. Do you feel I was protecting ABR?

Yes.

I didn't consider myself to be under a lot of pressure at the time, and it wasn't the first time that I had questioned ABR's truthfulness, either.

[julienvonwolfe]

Yes, save for the night that ABR roleblocked me. I believe from discussions with the mod that this prevented my action from going through, so this might not count as a usage of saidar.

Where is this going?

[julienvonwolfe]

Shadow Knight.

[julienvonwolfe]

Ok, I believe the puzzle has been solved.

JVW, what ability did you use on Shadow Knight Night 1?

The answer to this question should definitively reveal someone in this game as scum, giving us a sure lynch for today, barring any crazy shenanigans.

I'm Yellow Ajah. I healed him that night. As it turns out, he died anyway, which means that at least two people tried to kill him.

I thought that he was Aes Sedai because he said this:

Last question, then you've got my full backing.

What is the White Ajeh ability?

Yes, I'm ignoring you spyre. Deal with it.

And this is the same spelling mistake of "Ajah" that is in my role PM.

It has been established that I use Ajeh and Ajah interchangeably. Nonetheless, this is your only warning JVM.

[julienvonwolfe]

I've just had a thought about Isacc being a Gholam: the OP doesn't affect Gholams. That might be why my protect failed, if Isacc did indeed dismember Shadow Knight.

MBL shedding OP like water off a duck's back sounds like Gholam too.

On topic of JVW's claim:

Really? Why Shadow Knight instead of

your Aes Sedai partner?

My partner wasn't outed. For those who spotted it, Shadow Knight basically was.

This isn't 100% now is? I thought I've heard of games where a doc protection blocks all attacks...JVW does yours specifically state it blocked only one attack?

This is paraphrasing, so it will sound awkward, but my role PM specifically states that I do not protect my targets from more than one kill attempt.

TSS, it seems to me that a large part of your case is built on the assumption that blowing up sleeping locations is a result of a night action. Is it not equally likely that the mod is simply keeping pace with the shrinking playerlist?

[julienvonwolfe]

I think that TSS's long post contains way too many assumptions to be all that useful.

I've just had a thought about Isacc being a Gholam: the OP doesn't affect Gholams. That might be why my protect failed, if Isacc did indeed dismember Shadow Knight.

But you were ostensibly healing

SK

, so it doesn't particularly make sense that your power would've failed due to Isacc. Anyway,

unvote. Vote: JVW.

Yes, it does.

My protect = using the power to prevent kill. Power doesn't affect gholams. Thus Gholam could go through my protect.

[julienvonwolfe]

And MBL. Who sheds One Power usage like water off a ducks back and has kept his role as close to the chest as possible.

You know, ever since I've read this, I've come to the conclusion that MBL is probably a gholam. I don't know how I managed to miss the evidence from which Spyrex draws this conclusion - is it the whole 'stuffing up night results' thing?

I'm pretty well-versed in the books, and I can't think of any other plausible scenarios. Sure, Mat has his medallion, but that was given to him by the Snakes and Foxes several hundred years after this game is set. In game terms, therefore, it doesn't exist. Supposedly there are other ter'angreal, but I think that there were only vague hints about them, perhaps in connection with Cadsuane.

So, he is added to my list of people who must die. I have to put a vote down at some point:

Vote: MBL

Oh, and my understanding of roleblocking is that the roleblocked action does not go ahead at all; thus there is nothing to detect.

[julienvonwolfe]

Why are you not voting KoC? Either you or KoC is lying to this town. If you contend that you are not lying, you HAVE to believe KoC is scum. So why are you voting MBL off far less concrete evidence?

I also believe that ABR and Benmage are probably scum, and consider there to be good evidence to back those arguments up.

However, it seems that the only way to get anybody to notice anything in this game is to underline it with a vote, and I had a point to make about MBL.

[julienvonwolfe]

Again, for the 12th time, if you think finding scum in this game is as easy as seeing which players resist the 8 billion Saidar uses in this game, you're retarded.

Counterargument: Isacc.

sexy

stupid

Point #800132 why it's stupid:

Isacc claimed One-Power immunity because he was run up to a bunch of votes, was in trouble, and had to deal with the fact that ABR roleblocked him N1.

It was self-preservation.

MBL claimed glitchability of One Power because otherwise MacavityLock was about to be exiled, possibly mis-exiled, due to an unexpected result.

This was not self-preservation by MBL--MBL actually showed his hand in preservation of Truth, Justice, and the Westlands Way.

Which in no way means that you are not a gholam.

[julienvonwolfe]

1) You're lynching a doctor. Well done.

2) People like Goat, Benmage and ML, who I see as shamelessly bandwagoning:

I think that TSS's long post contains way too many assumptions to be all that useful.

I've just had a thought about Isacc being a Gholam: the OP doesn't affect Gholams. That might be why my protect failed, if Isacc did indeed dismember Shadow Knight.

But you were ostensibly healing

SK

, so it doesn't particularly make sense that your power would've failed due to Isacc. Anyway,

unvote. Vote: JVW.

This works for me too.

Unvote Vote JVW

I attempted to refute ML's comment about my theory, and he's not given me the courtesy of replying.

3) Lynch MBL already. I have a respectable knowlege of the books, and I can't think of any other explanation for his claimed screwing with the power than if he is a gholam. I'm not sure that Gholam should be around in the timespan that the game is set in - and I'm almost certain that the Forsaken shouldn't be wandering around either - but perhaps that is just Kinetic taking liberties. The names of the game's forsaken that we have seen are at least different to the ones in the books.

4)

Oh, and my understanding of roleblocking is that the roleblocked action does not go ahead at all; thus there is nothing to detect.

How sure are we of this?

It's based on communications with the mod.

[julienvonwolfe]

JVW, do you get detects? What were your Silo-> and ->Silo detects N1? MoS and KoC say there was only one, from Silo->Stables I believe. That's why you're being lynched--because there's no detect corresponding to your supposed protect of SK.

My detects are the same. I assumed that my detect to the stables was me.

Night One: 1 to Stables, 1 from river

The timeline works for both Gholams and Forsaken.

Not really.

Gholams were made in the war of the power, and then, if you look at:

ACoS,Ch39 - Birgitte tells Mat all about gholam. The one that attacked must have survived in a stasis box.

This implies that the gholam must have survived in a stasis box, rather than being out in the open in the time that this game is set in.

Forsaken have been bound in the Dark One's prison for thousands of years, with only Ishamael able to break free every now and then. Only in the books do they start to break free again.

This game is not set in the time of the books, it is set between the Breaking and the Trolloc Wars.

I attempted to refute ML's comment about my theory, and he's not given me the courtesy of replying.

Well, your explanation doesn't make much sense. Based on books only, a Yellow's power is applied to the person being healed, not the person or thing that did the hurting. Dismemberment

might

make sense as an unblockable kill, but I'm not sure. Do you agree that it's 1-and-1 between you and KoC? If so, a) why protest so much against your own death when you know it will lead to scum death tomorrow, and b) why not go hard after KoC, given that you and he are pretty much the only options for today? If you don't think it's between you and KoC, why not?

a) I believe that being a doctor is valuable to the town. Perhaps it is likely that I will be nightkilled anyway - I've asked Kinetic whether or not I can Heal myself tonight.

b) I rather thought that it had already been said by others.

However, before the day ends, I think I would like to know this as well.

JVW, do you get detects? What were your Silo-> and ->Silo detects N1? MoS and KoC say there was only one, from Silo->Stables I believe. That's why you're being lynched--because there's no detect corresponding to your supposed protect of SK.

Any of Koc, JVW and MoS, can you list all detects to and from the Silo? Are all detects accounted for assuming that one of KoC or JVW is scum? As I'd like to know this before the end of the day,

unvote.

.

Night two is irrelevant.

Night Three, I healed Kison. Detects: 1 to river, 1 to barn, 2 from silo, 2 to silo

I confess that I don't understand these results - can somebody else clarify? It seems that I got some specific results and some less specific detects. Either that or the '2 from silo' and '2 to silo' were made by people

in

the silo.


Night four, I healed MoS. However, ABR roleblocked me, so I don't think I have any saidar actions on the radar. However, my detects were: 1 to blacksmith, 1 from barn, one from blacksmith

JVW specifically said he wasn't roleblocked, so his Saidar use should have been detected, even if it failed.

If I did, I didn't mean to. I was definitely roleblocked.

I don't think I can say much more. I've made my point about MBL as best I can. Thus:

unvote, vote: KoC

And be done with it.

[julienvonwolfe]

Julienvonwolfe, did you tell your original partner Tenchi (who Yosarian2 replaced) that you were a Yellow Ajah doctor? Because he was at River and could have roleblocked you if he knew you were going to protect ShadowKnight.

Yos2 claims Tenchi did nothing, but that's not necessarily true, as Tenchi could have put the order in any time before lynch.

Also, did you get a message from the mod saying that you were roleblocked?

Tenchi knew that I was Yellow Ajah, though I didn't tell him the exact details of my role.

I did get a message saying that my heal was, to paraphrase, forestalled/stopped/whatever, when I tried to heal MoS. I didn't on night one when I tried to heal Shadow Knight.

[julienvonwolfe]

According to other players who were roleblocked, they received messages from the mod saying they were blocked and their action didn't go through, I believe. You'll want to check this with the mod, because as it stands, your attempted Saidar use was not detected. That means either you are lying about using it, or that you were roleblocked and were kept from using it.

Or that KoC was lying, or perhaps something else was screwing with the detections.

My only other thought is that perhaps SK was already dead by the time my action reached him, due to the mod's order of night action priorities. Perhaps this screwed with the detects.

Thanks Kinetic. Please note that in the vote count, MBL is not listed as voting even though he obviously just voted for me. I claim responsibility for this. This is proof that he is not immune to the One Power, and thus not a Gholam. MBL, in about 24 hours, you will be able to vote again as per normal. That concludes this test of the Emergency Gholam Detection System.

Okay, I can live with that. I give up on MBL. Maybe he has some sort of ter'angreal or something.

However, JVW's claim that he received a message about being roleblocked last night is most likely bullshit, since he has been claiming ABR is scum. If he *had* received such a message, it would have been proof of ABR's claim.

Well, proof that he has a roleblocking action. Not proof of his alignment.

Look, folks, I've been straight-up and honest with you to the best of my ability. It's obvious that that has gotten me in a tight spot, and I'm at a loss to explain why. I could've easily avoided this situation by lying, if I were lying scum. Think about that before lynching me.

[julienvonwolfe]

Argh, folks. I'm sorry I haven't been around. I got frustrated with why I was being lynched - as has been said, it didn't make sense. Then I moved from one town to another, and I'm ashamed to say that I managed to get drawn into another game as well. I'm caught up now, though. Some things:

Can a Yellow confirm that Protect is a daybreak activity?

I asked the mod, and yes, if it still matters.

I'm amazed JVW didn't get lynched, to be honest. If anything, JVW/Me was a far simpler 1v1.

Why did you vote Seteal, then? Did you just want a cop dead over a doctor?

[julienvonwolfe]

Makes sense to me. I targeted MoS.

[julienvonwolfe]

I'd like to say that ABR has been voicing his suspicion of Kair for the longest time, and it doesn't seem far-fetched that he'd block him. charter's postings in our QT have only strengthened my town read.

Who else needs to target claim?

So Albert viewed Kai as a scum with a motivating ability?

[julienvonwolfe]

So Albert viewed Kai as a scum with a motivating ability?

Have you been reading the same game I have? ABR's been calling Kair scum since Day 2. I don't think he is at this point, but ABR never requested my counsel in making his roleblocking decisions.

Did he say anything about being motivated?

[julienvonwolfe]

Nevermind, I just re-read.

[julienvonwolfe]

Can we have two of the reds or two of the yellows or whatever compare role info to see if they're identical?

Could do this for example by having each paraphrase one of their abilities, then the other confirming.

The reason to do this would be to see if Sajin's funky, or if there's a reasonable explanation for Sajin's note being different from Setael's.

If KoC's up for it, I'd be interested in comparing our roles.

[julienvonwolfe]

just asking the mod something.

[julienvonwolfe]

Not precisely. I am claiming possession of mod info, though. And that info is that Yosarian is not bound by the Oath Rod.

I also know that ABR/charter, while bound to the Oath Rod, is of interest to the Pattern. I am not clear exactly what that means, but it does not simply mean "channeler", of that I am certain.

Yos, is that all you can say? If there's an explanation for why TSS got this result, post it or tell me in the quicktopic. Otherwise, I'll vote for you. I don't see why TSS would put himself on the line like this if he's scum.

TSS, are you saying that ABR/charter is ta'veren? That's perhaps the only relevant thing that I can think of for your message regarding him right now.


@ KoC: The healing ability that we yellows have will only protect our target against the first attack, do you agree?

[julienvonwolfe]

Oh, and detections: I was at the River.

Two from River
One from Windmill
Two to Blacksmith
Two to River

[julienvonwolfe]

Yos has not provided a satisfactory argument on the quicktopic for why TSS got the result he did.

KoC, can you paraphrase something about the yellow role PM in return for me?

[julienvonwolfe]

I wonder if he died from being cut off, since a lot of gentled male channelers would just lose the will to live after a while, according to the books.

Cut off from oxygen, perhaps.

[julienvonwolfe]

Sorry for the delay. School just started again.

I was roleblocked.

[julienvonwolfe]

I tried to heal TSS.

[julienvonwolfe]

ML, I was roleblocked.

[julienvonwolfe]

Sajin, you really need to answer why you didn't do anything last night.

This. The lack of a notice strikes me as extremely odd.

Sajin, what were your river detects?

[julienvonwolfe]

Oh, and I was at the river.

[julienvonwolfe]

(Note: I've just willingly put myself into a 1-for-1 trade with KoC)

By 'did not visit anyone', do you mean that KoC performed no night action?

In any case, I healed TSS.

[julienvonwolfe]

Sort-of Cop > Tracker, and that looks pretty straight up as a 1V1 to me.

Vote: Moratorium

I agree with this.

Vote: Moratorium

[julienvonwolfe]

Dammit I was putting him at L-1.

So you really didn't see my vote before you posted?



I was at the river.

Also, I don't know what to make of Mora's last post.

[julienvonwolfe]

Sweet game. My first win, though I think I have to thank my scumbuddies for that.

[julienvonwolfe]

Damn, I feel empty without this game.

[julienvonwolfe]

To be fair, you found me as scum for the wrong reasons. I was very frustrated by that