Wheel of Time Mafia: Rip in the Pattern (GAME OVER)

[Yosarian2]

I am here. I'll attempt to read and catch up with this game soon.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, I'm going to start to try catching up on this game now.

Glancing at the most recent page, it looks like we're doing a mass "where did you sleep" claim, which I think makes sense in order to help info roles. I don't believe the mod included that information with the role PM he sent me when I replaced in last night; I'm sending him a PM now to hopefully find out where my predecessor slept.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, got the result back from the mod. I was at the river last night.

Doing a re-read now:

Page 2: Shadow Knight (dead town) looks a little iffy, with his wierd posts where he's both making assumptions, attacking other people for making assumptions, and possibly rolefishing. If I had been in the game at the time I would have thought that behavior was scummy-looking.

Page 3: I would have expected either an attack on Shadownight or questions on him at this point. I did NOT expect this :

Thanks, Shadow Knight, for being the first AS to claim. Well done.

Power role fishing a few posts into the game, Flay? Really? I mean, yes, I can see where you got that idea from SK's posts, but why share your thoughts on his role to everyone else?

Page 4: Now Mr. Flay is trying to say he didn't actually mean that he thought Shadow Knight was Aes Sedi, and it was sarcasm. I have two problems with this. First of all, SK actually was Aes Sedi, and he kind of looked like an Aes Sedi in those early posts, so I don't think "sarcasm" really makes sense here. And secondly, "sarcasm" or not, it still kind of looks like fishing, in that if you were a scum trying to find out Shadow Knight's role, his reaction to a comment like that might help you, no matter if you were being sarcastic or not.

FOS:Mr. Flay

[Yosarian2]

Page 5: Fabien: I dislike this post.

WIt's a valid point, we're all human and we have bias, and I don't think we should have been allowed to speak before the game started, that's why I didn't, and I think what I said before is a valid point, not about this game but about mafia games in general.

I apologise for being vague before when I said we should be more clear with our questions, but I did actually have a point about the questions, I just failed to convey it.
What I was hinting at was the age old riddle.

"You stand at a fork in the road. Next to each of the two forks, there stands a guard. You know the following things: 1. One path leads to Paradise, the other to Death.
One of the two guards always tells the truth, and the other guard always lies.
Unfortunately, it is impossible for you to distinguish between the two guards.
You may ask one question to one guard. What do you ask?

First of all; when the mod opens the thread and says we can talk, then the game has started. Posting at that point can only help the town, even if we can't vote yet. The first part seems like a weak excuse for pre-game lurking; which is kind of odd, since a lot of people never bothered to post pre-game anyway.
The bigger problem, though, is it sounds like he's suggesting some kind of test where everyone lies, in order to see who can lie, or someting like that; that would out all the aes sedi for no good reason.

Fos:Fabien

...right after I typed this up, I checked the player list and realized Fabien is already dead and was scum. Ok, cool. I'll leave this here anyway; this was my first reaction to reading Fabien's post, and if I leave it here in thread I can compare it to other people's reactions.
Page 6:

The ONLY people bound to the three oaths are Aes Sedai, and the ONLY people in the entire books that could not lie were Aes Sedai. So, unless you can figure some reason why an Aes Sedai would suddenly become a SK or other non-town role, then this whole pursuit was pointless.

Well, let me delve into setup specualtion here, based on my knowlege of the books, although I haven't read them in a while. I'm not sure when exactally this is taking place. There WERE, at one point, male aes sedi, but I think that (all? most?) of them went insane and took part in the breaking of the world, and appaently this game happens after that. Also, I think the Oath Rod was a pretty recent development in the Aes Sedi; the ancient Aes Sedi, back in the days when there were male Aes Sedi, did not use it (I think.) So, no, I don't think it's likely there are any male aes sedi in this game bound by the oath rod.

Unvote, Vote: fuzzylightning

First you FoS Shadow Knight for his talk of Aes Sedai while he is trying to stop people from outing them, then you vote Fabian for trying to out Aes Sedai? This is not only inconsistent, but it smells a bit fishy to me as well.

BIG

FOS:MOS

I think it's pretty clear Fabian WAS trying to out pro-town power roles. Him attacking FuzzyLightning for pointing that out seems scummy to me, in a "chainsaw defense" kind of way.

(Albert also voted FuzzyLightning, but his vote dosn't look as bad to me)

Issac votes McCavity lock now (post 146)...I have no idea why at all.

Page 7: Fabien claims; not clear to me based on his claim if the scum have fake claims or not. Hascow votes him based on the claim.

Fabien claims some more, claims doctor.

Albert votes him...then unvotes him a few posts later? ALBERT, COULD YOU EXPLAIN THE POST 171 UNVOTE, PLEASE?

He then said it was because of "his location and signature"? Yes, yes, Irish drunk jokes; the whole unvote here still bugs me, especally since I don't think Fabien was supposed to have been drunk either when he went Aes Sedi fishing with dynimate or when he made that odd claim..

Fabian is so town (retarded town, but town nonetheless) right now it hurts.

Uh...what?
Issac then defends Fabian for the following reasons:

Next, DO NOT lynch Fabian. I have about 100 reasons for this (exaggeration...)

1. There may be other Aes Sedai with less effective healing abilities who can protect him (see WoT Mini).

2. His claim is pretty solid. Wisdoms existed simply as town healers. (Well...and weathermen).

3. With the ability to sleep in different areas, there is a chance that a killing role does not pick the same place as him and thus he may be safe from death this night.

4. Better a scumlynch and power role NK than a power role lynch and another NK.

5. Yes, he played terribly and should NOT have claimed, however I see no reason for a scum to do this.

Defending a scum ALWAYS has to be considered a scum tell, no matter what. However, at least Issac had good reasons for it; I might have been reluctent to lynch a claimed doctor at the time as well, so I suppose it's only a small scumtell in this case.

Issac then said he apperantly ment to be voting FuzzyLightning instead of McCavity Lock; dosn't make me feel any better about him.

Mr. Flay "reluctantly" unvotes Fabien after doc claim. Fair enough. Also, lol @ Mr. Flay's post 216.

I am 100% telling the truth about my role. Crazy-as-a-loon Saidar wielding secret voter.

Um...if this is true...then does this mean SpyreX may become scum or a SK or something in the future?
Ok, lots of other people pointed this out as well.

You are lynching me for being clear with my role because I -may- become a SK because in the -other- game (the one that the mod said this one isn't a mirror of) the same thing happened?

Well, I would also add to this that, flavorwise, men who channel Sadan tend to insane over time, generally in the "let's kill everyone and burn the world" kind of way. And it sounds like you're already starting to go insane. So, along with the other game, there's good flavor reasons for thinking you may turn into a SK, SpyreX. Not that town should bet too heavily on flavor, of course, but it's worth noting.
Lots of people push for a SpyreX policy lynch, for that exact reason. If SpyreX is telling the truth, then voting him for that reason is basically a null tell, IMHO, something both town and scum are equally likely to do here, so I'm not going to try to read much into all that.

On page 13, I don't see any reason for Mr. Flay's jester speculation Ugh.

[Yosarian2]

I find Yosarian mildly scummy.

Why?

Also, more importantly, answer the question I just asked you.

[Yosarian2]

It's no lie to say that I was already frustrated with the roleclaims at that point in the game.

Actually, no; as of your post 57, when you initially outed SK as a Aes Sedi, no one had claimed at all. SO your post clearly wasn't because you were "frustrated with roleclaims".

And it's no lie to say that I wasn't SK's partner-mason, so while he was giving off 'Aes Sedai tells' it wasn't like I literally thought he was one.

Why not? He did look like an Aes Sedai, based on how he was talking about this. You even explained this yourself:

To more directly answer your question, I think Shadow Knight is making the huge assumption that Aes Sedai would be our ONLY power role. The easy assumption from that is that he has or knows specifically about that role, and thus is tunneled on it.

You had very good reasons for thinking Shadow Knight was an Aes Sedi, and you were right about them. What I don't at all get is why you felt the need to bring it up on page 3, right after the start of day 1. At the very least it seems anti-town to me to out a pro-town role the way you did there.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, back to re-reading; sorry I didn't have time the last few days. I'm on page 15 right now.

If you don't want any more claims today, there is an easy solution. Let's go back to lynching Fabian, who claimed at like Lynch Minus 10. Not only that, but he claimed doctor and claimed ability results that could not be confirmed by anybody. It's pretty much a classic scum claim if you look at it mechanically and ignore the flavor (which is fairly generic and easily faked for this theme).

"Back" to lynching Fabian? When were we doing that to begin with?

I don't understand your reasoning at all. Fabian's claim was utterly retarded. At L-10 it pretty much screwed him over. You're saying that's classic scum claim? A

bad

claim is classic scum? I thought scum

want

to survive?

Ugh. Issac continues to defend the scum here, and this one is a very bad, crap-logic defense. Baiscally "Fabian just make a really bad claim; scum wouldn't make a bad claim, because that would look scummy!" This is wrong on so many levels.

For one thing, just a few pages ago, Issac was defending Favian because:

2. His claim is pretty solid. Wisdoms existed simply as town healers. (Well...and weathermen).

So, now you're claiming that his claim was "bad", and somehow "screwed him over"? He claimed doctor, with flavor that made sense. Scum love to do that, for various reasons.

Fos:Issac

This continues defense of Fabian is really a red flag. Issac is now doing whatever he can to prevent a lynch of scum-Fabian, bending logic and everything. Which actually would make perfect sense in an "Issac-is-scum-with-Fabian" scenerio, especally considering I would guess a Forsaken would be likely to have some really powerful scum abilities, so it wouldn't surprise me if they took some risks to keep him alive.

Plus I have a simple counter-argument. Why lynch a claimed doctor

day 1

? If he is lying and is secretly an anti-town power role, I think we can afford to let him live 1 more day

at least

. However, if he is honest (which, he probably is) then lynching him today means killing off a town power role for the scum and 1 less protective role.

Fair, but that's exactally why scum do claim doc. So why were you just saying that he made a "very bad claim"?

Anyway, some more back and fourth discussion about the "should we lynch the future SK" thing...

Your extensive experience?

Your extensive experience should tell you that scum lynches are preferable to SK lynches.

This, by the way, is completely 100% wrong. A SK IS a scum, and lynching a SK on day 1>lynching a mafia member on day 1, since it gets rid of an nightkill right away, especally since SK's tend to want to kill off stuff like power roles and confirmed townies. Lynching a SK day 1 is one of the best things a town can do; extra kills tend to hurt the town more then the scum, and in any case if you eliminate the chance of a SK winning it automatically increases the chances of the town winning.

Now, I can see how it might be reasonable to consider keeping Spyrex alive as being an option if he might not become a SK, especally if he's gentiled and someone else will know he's gentiled or whatever. However, you trying to claim that lynching a SK is somehow a bad town stratagy or whatever is just completly wrong.

Page 16: Albert is making sense here. KoC is not, and KoC's vote for Albert makes even less.

Also, Albert gives a hypothetical here to explain why he's rather lynch Spyrex today then run up some more people, and Issac uses it to rolefish at him.

You bandwagon me to L-2, I claim an extremely important power role.

This is badposting.

1. You are wifoming the poop out of us, as we have no reason to believe you

are

an extremely important power role.

2. If you ARE an extremely important power role, you just outed yourself anyways. Nice job. Epic fail.

So, Albert makes a post that is either an innocent hypothetical or is a breadcrumb that he has a power role, so you decide to point it out and make a huge deal about it? More scummy posting from Issac here.

Like, see, I'm more and more confident about Issac and SK being town with each post.

Why, because they're defending you? Hint: Even if you are town, just because someone is defending you, dosn't make that person town.

Role-claim time!

I claim Aes Sedai. I'm in a pair of Aes Sedai.

Ugh. More power roles claiming. Seems a little early for a claim, but Albert does have a habit of claiming early when he gets pressured.

We should have you lynched just for being dumb enough to claim already.

You are a hypocrite for crying about us outing roles AND THEN OUTING YOURSELF

THEN WHY THE HELL DID YOU MAKE SUCH A BIG DEAL OUT OF POINTING OUT HIS BREADCRUMB.

I call bullshit on this.

Did I force you to claim? No. Not in the least.

Actually, when you make a huge point of pointing out someone's breadcrumb, while voting them and attacking them, you kind of are forcing them to claim, yeah. That's basically how you force someone to claim, if you're scum and want to out a pro-town power role.

Issac then asks if we can "force-replace" Albert, for being "uncooperative", which is just, ugh. Why should he co-operate with you, when you look like scum?

As of End of page 17, I'm really leaning towards voting Issac.

[Yosarian2]

Page 19:

If I can detect Saidar, and ABR can detect Saidar, then I would be of the strong mindset that other Aes Sedai can detect it as well.

I'm guessing some of you out there also know someone was weaving Saidar today, otherwise I would have had a lot more people who "didn't believe my claim", know what I mean?

But I'll humour you and wait for ABR to say it.

Yes, because Aes Sedai are so eager to reveal themselves to your scumpartner by pushing for your lynch, right? Nice try.

:Good posting:

I don't get why Shadow Knight is trying so hard to try and get ALbert to tell the town what the white Aes Sedi ability is. SK, don't you think there's a danger in scum knowing what abilities the town has? I mean, at the very LEAST, if Albert has this information and does not share it, he can then use it to confirm anyone else who claimes white Aes Sedi.

Well since its so transparent and Albert is going to be stupid and not answer it, I am also Aes Sedai. My partner, who I will not divulge at this time is also White Ajeh

...Oh. Well, shit. SK, why the hell did you just claim? SOOO anti-town...

Also, frankly, if we did want the two of them to claim here to confirm the other one, I'd rather see SK claim first. Albert seems obvtown here, and did even before he claimed. SK, on the other hand, just claimed for absolutly no reason, and that's scummy.

SK continues to demand info from Albert...his whole attitude here really dosn't make sense to me. Even if Albert was a black Aes Sedi, I'm assuming he would STILL have a Aes Sedi partner, right? So how does proving he has an Aes Sedi partner accomplish anything at this point?

And now SK is talking about STILLING Albert, basically taking someone who is probably a pro-town role and making them into a vanillia townie? Seriously?

Lynch Fabian, he lied about his ability and is trying to get away with it.

MOS is almost certanly not scum with Fabian, IMHO.

Are you even paying attention? We already caught scum in Fabian, who lied about his ability to detect Saidar and has been counterclaimed by two Aes Sedai.

This is exactly what I am talking about with role speculation.

You are professing a lynch, not on a basis of scumtells, but on the basis of a roleclaim. I dislike this.

This post is SOOOOO scummy. Issac, if the town has *ROLE BASED INFORMATION* that strongly implies that Fabien is probably lying scum, for several reasons, why would you want to ignore that in favor of some weak day 1 situational scumtells?

And even this would be bad enough, except you haven't actually even been pointing out scumtells; all you've done is defened Fabien, and argued with Albert about tactics.

Even if Fabian is scum, that doesn't prove anything about ABR and SK and far from clears their names.

This line of this post bothers me as well.

Flay defends Fabien a little here as well, disagreeing with MOS's problems with Fabian's claim.

Anyway, bandwagon forms on Fabian, Fabian changes his claim into something absurd.

And then more abusurd.

And then he claims death miller, hahahaha

And then he claims supersaint...oh, man, this is the funniest defense I've ever seen.

I'm an Orc from the Warhammer 40k Universe.
I have been sent back in time to help you people find scum with my superior technology.

Hammering me will be considered an act of war, expect a full scale invasion.

Ok, at this point I'm pretty sure Fabian just gave up on this game and just wanted to go for the "funniest roleclaim" scummy instead.

Ok, Fabian lynched, Issac starts his defense against defending obv scum.

Am I the only one who finds Isacc's defense of Fabian pretty damning at this point?

1.) I never "defended" Fabian. I had no reason to disbelieve the claim, especially when the two "counterclaims" were from people I had no reason to trust. I didn't defend him however, I simply chose not to support the lynch.

Um, yes, you did. You argued hard against his lynch, using incresingly bad logic, throught the course of the game. Even after it had become clear that he was lying based on role information, you still kept defending him.

2.) Not supporting a lynch is a pretty weak scumtell, regardless of who is lynched. I could just as reasonably claim that some of the people on Fabian's wagon were scum bussing.

Bad WIFOM defense here.
Defending a scum is pretty much the best example of a pure scumtell there is.

3.) Now, I may be arrogant here, but I'm a bit insulted by how stupid you must think I am. Let's say I was scum and Fabian was one of my buddies. Do you honestly think I would support him through an obviously false claim that he detected the one power?

Sure, if you thought you could either prevent his lynch, or if you thought town would be foolish enough to accept this kind of defense afterwards.

Moral of the story is, consider motivations. Do you honestly think I would act this way if I was scum?

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Also, yes. Scum do try to prevent their scumbuddies from being lynched. Especally if said scumbuddy has powerful role abilities you don't want to lose, and, blood and ashes, Fabian was a Forsaken; if a Forsaken dosn't have cool abilities, who would?

[Yosarian2]

All caught up.

Vote:Isacc

Lots of scummy posts, as I pointed out in my summeries, but the biggest thing is the constant, unrelenting, and at times illogical defense of a scum all day yesterday. The weak "I wouldn't defend a scum if I was scum because that would look scummy" defense today is completly unconvincing.

[Yosarian2]

Right, right, forgot the whole red thing.

Vote:Isacc

[Yosarian2]

Oh; I typed this out while I was rereading, then forgot to post it somehow. Eh, I'll post it now.

If you're stupid enough to not realize Fabian is scum when you're town, then you're stupid enough to support him when everyone else realizes he's scum. You're not really making a good case for your intelligence, here.

That's terrible logic, insulting, wrong, and doesn't actually prove any point. Good job.

No, it's not. Anyway, you can't complain about being insulted when your own bloody defense was

I'd have to mentally challenged to not bus a partner who was dumb enough to make that mistake

Your DEFENSE was "I'd have to be dumb to defend Fabian if I was scum". So if he response is"You'd have to be dumber to not attack Fabian if you were town", not only is that logical, you don't really have any grounds to compain about being insulted.

[Yosarian2]

It seems to me that Mr. Flay has been let off the hook rather easily of late though, as post 853 never seemed to be addressed (the two "it is no lie that" statements), other than a "I've got limited access today and tomorrow so I can't respond to the attacks above right now" and a short selective response. Although I think we're still on the right track, Mr. Flay is still a matter of suspicion for me.

(nods) I agree. After I finished the re-read, the guy with the strong connection to the dead scum seemed a higher priority, but I still do want to see a real response from Mr. Flay to my post 853.

[Yosarian2]

Also, if Kairyuu motivated Isacc last night, and then thought it was suspicious that there were multiple kills with the same method, then I am confused why Kairyuu never attacked Isacc today. The most he's said was:

I think that the Isacc-wagon has some merit, but the case against him is circumstantial at best. I do not intend to pursue it.

That does not sound like someone who thinks he has role based info.

[Yosarian2]

I'm 'relatively' new to this forum. But everytime I've seen a roleblocker it has been on the scum team. In addition most of the time on other forum mafia games I've played roleblocker has been a scum ability.

Traditionally, pro-town blockers have always been more common then scum role blockers, although both roles are fairly common. The fact that scum roleblockers are in the new newbie setup, though, makes it understanable to me why new players might think otherwise.

Anyway, I don't see why anything about these new claims would make me less willing to lynch Issac. As pointed out, untargatable isn't especally likely to be a town ability, could be godfather or SK just as easily. Also, all the problems with Kairyuu's claim aside, even if Kairyuu is telling the complete truth it dosn't actually prove anything.

Also, this looks like a contradiction:

And then the Foxhead Medallion is passive. It does not actually tell me the ability it gives me, just the flavor about receiving the gift from the Queen and how it grows cool to the touch, however the One Power immunity was pretty obvious.

Is your immunity unconditional? The foxhead medallion in the books didn't prevent indirect use of the One Power, such as having items thrown at the wearer, so one would think that "incineration", if done correctly, would still be an effective attack despite your possession of the medallion - but you seem to be implying that your immunity is foolproof.

This is something I asked about awhile back.

Only abilities that directly target me with the One Power are negated. However, general One Power abilities that don't directly target me will not be negated.

Earlier, you were just saying that the mod never told you that you were immune to the one power, just that you figured it out yourself from your role flavor. But now, you apparently asked the mod about the details of your one power immunity, AND HE ANSWERED YOU? Why would he do that if he never even told you you were immune to the One Power? That dosn't make any sense to me at all.

Confirm vote:Isacc

[Yosarian2]

Wow...simulposted with you before , MBL; that's a terrifying thought. I hope you're wrong about them being alts, but I guess we'll see.

In any case, Isacc at least seems to have contradicted his own claim; I can't think of a way he could have been telling the truth in both places. He, at least, appears to be lying about his role.

[Yosarian2]

I'd say we're ready to procced w/ a lynch, but I'd like to get replacements and sleeping locations etc.

Actually...

Mod: If you did have to modkill Isacc and Kairyuu, would it end the day? Would we still have a chance to send in sleeping locations and such?

[Yosarian2]

Ok, good, we caught a scum. Not that there was really any doubt about Isacc being scum, but it was nice of him to confirm it for us.

[Yosarian2]

But why do we need their sleeping locations?

To help our info roles.

How do we know that the notice is real?

Oh, we don't, at all.

and why can we not assume that the final two are in the stables because I believe I read something about 3 in the stables.

Well, you read that in the notice, but as you just pointed out, we don't actually know the notice is real; nor do we know that everyone who's claimed location was telling the truth.

[Yosarian2]

I'm afraid that Issac is going to find a way out the longer we wait.

Nope. He claimed SK. This early in the game, lynching a SK is pretty much the best thing the town can do; I tend to think that it's actually better then lynching one mafia member at this point of a game, since getting rid of a SK reduces the number of nightkills. Trying to tame a SK and keep him on our side would be crazy on the part of the town; it could very easily put us in one of those ugly situations later on where the town can't afford to lynch him because it could lead to a mafia win. No, once we get those last two location claims, we put Isaac out of his misery.

On a side note; I find all of Isacc's "there's another SK just like me" speculation unlikely. If Isaac is a SK, and if we're assuming SpyreX could have gone insane and become a SK...how many SK's would you expect in one game?

[Yosarian2]

Isacc is scum, not SK.

IMO Isacc is scum, not SK.

It's certanly possible, and I was considering that. The flavor fits well for a SK, but then again, the role he's claiming works for the Forsaken anyway in the books, if I'm remembering correctly, so he could very well be mafia trying to claim SK as a last ditch gambit.

Anyway, dosn't matter. Either way, lynching him today is the right move.

[Yosarian2]

I have motivated Albert, MBL. I will not be changing that. Why the hell would I motivate a claimed SK?

I don't know. Why did you motivate Isaac last night, after he spent the entire day trying to prevent us from lynching one of the Forsaken? And then when you saw all the kills today and realized it might be because you motivated a BG killer, why didn't you put a little pressure on Isacc?

(For the record, I don't think you were cheating, Kairyuu. I do have doubts about your alignment, but only in the game. )

[Yosarian2]

However, Issac being SK does lend a large amount of credence to a second Gholam running around based on kill flavor. I could, definitely, see that being Flay.

If I may repeat myself:

On a side note; I find all of Isacc's "there's another SK just like me" speculation unlikely. If Isaac is a SK, and if we're assuming SpyreX could have gone insane and become a SK...how many SK's would you expect in one game?

3 SK's in a game seems almost absurdly swingy. It's possible, but I doubt it.

[Yosarian2]

I hope that once I flip SK, then yall will trust me a little more? I would hate for all the accusations I made to go to waste purely on the grounds that I am "scum."

Why? If you're SK, then why do you care if the mafia or the town wins?

On a side note; I find all of Isacc's "there's another SK just like me" speculation unlikely. If Isaac is a SK, and if we're assuming SpyreX could have gone insane and become a SK...how many SK's would you expect in one game?

So eager to defend Flay?

Eh? Flay is one of my main suspects, and has been since I replaced in. I doubt that there's 3 SK's in this game, though.

You seem pretty eager to point out that Flay is probably not another SK. Could you two perhaps be scum together?

Wait...I thought you just said Flay was a SK. Now you think he's my scumbuddy?

Interesting that you're trying to link me to Flay, though. If Isaac comes up mafia, the odds of Flay being mafia with him just went way up.

I also wonder, to what do you account my unique kill flavor appearing a third time? I wouldn't say coincidence, as my role-pm also specifically tells me that

my

kill flavor is dismemberment. So, why would there be a third?

That's a good question. I don't see any reason to assume, though, that the answer is "there are two Gholam SK's in the game." There are such a vast number of interesting characters in the Wheel of Time books, I don't really think it's that likely the mod would include two Gholams in the game; especally considering that they're not an especally common type of creature in the books; according to this wheel of time Wiki, there's only one known Gholam in the Third Age, probably pulled out of a stasis box. The idea of two just seems silly.

And as I was saying, there are balance problems with the idea of 3 potential SK's; 3 SK's means 3 extra random kills each day, which could either wipe out the town or wipe out the scum; it would basically makes the setup incredibly swingy and random. Just as a point of game theory, if someone asked me to review a game this size with a mafia and 3 potential SK's, I would suggest they reconsider unless it's really fundimental to the theme of the game.

[Yosarian2]

they're not an especally common type of creature in the books; according to this wheel of time Wiki, there's only one known Gholam in the Third Age, probably pulled out of a stasis box. The idea of two just seems silly.

Need I remind you that this takes place shortly after the breaking,

before

Gholams became uncommon?

I'm pretty sure they were never "common". In any case, there's a pretty amazing array of potential "bad guys" in the world; the Gholam was a pretty minor character. One, I could believe. Two? Neah.

I lose either way. But, I'd prefer the town to win. Why? Because, I feel like it.

Well, you've got a pretty strong reason to WANT to get us to believe that, certanly, since if you are a SK and you're playing to your win condition then all you really care about right now is "not getting lynched today".

[Yosarian2]

True. However, being entirely anti-town is a dangerously risky strategy for any SK, so I think I have a pretty strong reason to actually help out as well.

If by "help out", you mean "murder us all in our sleep, one by one", then yes, you do have a reason to "help out".

[Yosarian2]

Your assumption that I would become an SK is theory, and flawed at that. I can not and will not elaborate. However, I will emphatically say it is nor ever was the case. Take from it what you will.

So...now you're saying that you have some kind of role based info telling you you never would have become a SK, even if you hadn't been Gentled? Do you know something now you didn't know yesterday?

[Yosarian2]

Page 4: Now Mr. Flay is trying to say he didn't actually mean that he thought Shadow Knight was Aes Sedi, and it was sarcasm. I have two problems with this. First of all, SK actually was Aes Sedi, and he kind of looked like an Aes Sedi in those early posts, so I don't think "sarcasm" really makes sense here. And secondly, "sarcasm" or not, it still kind of looks like fishing, in that if you were a scum trying to find out Shadow Knight's role, his reaction to a comment like that might help you, no matter if you were being sarcastic or not.

FOS:Mr. Flay

This isn't a strong enough reason to vote for Mr.Flay. Post a case or I'll ask my partner to mess your vote up.

Huh? Who is this post directed at? I'm not voting Mr. Flay right now. MOS is, though.

[Yosarian2]

Directed at MoS, since I was under the impression that he borrowed your reasoning to vote for Flay. I don't like the jester argument against Flay. Actually, I don't have a town read on Flay or anything, but I think the arguments or cases so far against him are bad.

I actually think rolefishing day 1 is a pretty good scumtell, as far as day 1 scumtells go anyway; it's something scum really have a strong motive for doing, especally on day 1, and town should not do it, especally on day 1.

[Yosarian2]

Additionally, the Shadow Knight thing makes no sense

in a game with daytalking

. If I have buddies, why not tell them there, rather than breadcrumbing?!?

That's a good question, but I have seen scum do that before. In fact, I just got lynched as scum in a recently completled doubleheader game because my other head made that exact same move.

[Yosarian2]

However, if the town can win with a jester still alive, then why would you ever want to lynch one? The "distraction" argument is weak.

Well...town does want a jester dead, ASAP. You don't want to let a jester get anywhere near lynch or lose; in lynch or lose, he could cost the town the game just by voting himself and letting the scum lynch him.

I still don't get how Flay decided that jester was an especally likely possibility here. The flavor justifactions are kind of a reach, IMHO.

[Yosarian2]

Vote: Mr. Flay

Along with the scum tells I pointed out earlier, I'm not liking the general lack of contrabution here. I realize he said he was busy, but, you know, that and a quarter will buy you a cup of coffee. We really need to hear more from you, Flay.

[Yosarian2]

Faraday, the only problem with that plan is it's only useful if Flay catches scum, and we would need to lynch the OTHER person to confirm his ability. I want to come up with a situation where Flay has to confirm or deny a statement that does NOT have an inherently obvious answer yet is still confirmable by someone who knows the answer.

Well, I'm a little fuzzy about how lie detector roles work, but I suppose someone could simply make a declaritive statement ("I have $5 in my wallet now", for example), and PM the mod to let him know if that is true or if it is a lie. Then Mr. Flay could just use the ability, check that, and find out if the person is lying. Mr. Flay: Would that work?

The only downside to that is that it may confirm that person as "Not Aes Sedi", if they are lying. Well, that, and the fact that if Mr. Flay is scum there's a 50/50 chance he'll guess right anyway; we may actually have to do the experement more then once if we really want to be sure.

[Yosarian2]

MoS, I volunteer to have Flay lie-detect my sleeping location last night.

Ah; yeah, that works as well.

[Yosarian2]

MoS, I volunteer to have Flay lie-detect my sleeping location last night.

I don't see how this confirms anyone. MBL could lie and/or Flay could lie about this. I don't see how Yos's suggestion works either. Mod's not going to tell us anything one way or the other. All either of these things would do is force us to lynch one or the other of Flay and his lie-detecting target.

Huh?

No, the mod won't tell us. If Flay is telling the truth, the mod will tell him the results of his "investigation", and then MBL (or whoever) can either confirm or deny that, and we'll know if Flay was telling the truth or not. It wouldn't "force" us to lynch anyone; unless you are suggesting that you think MBL and Flay are scum together and they're orcistrating this whole thing for the town's benifit?

And, yes, really this isn't going to help because scum should be REAL good at faking lie detector.

Huh? I don't get this. How? If MBL says "I was in the stables last night", there's no way the scum would know if he was telling the truth or not. If Flay is lying about his lie-detector ability, we should be able to trap him in a lie here.

Nor, really, is it going to be useful because if its one target per day short of us all going "I am town" EVERY day and Flay hitting the right person (i.e. playing cop) are the scum going to overtly lie.

Eh, it actually looks like a pretty powerful investigative role to me he's claiming; not quite a cop, but pretty strong, probably stronger then, say, a tracker.

[Yosarian2]

It wouldn't "force" us to lynch anyone; unless you are suggesting that you think MBL and Flay are scum together and they're orcistrating this whole thing for the town's benifit?

Yes, this is totally plausible. Not only that, if MBL is scum and Flay isn't, MBL might not confirm. I don't think that the location-confirming test tells us anything.

Meh, I'm not to worried about that.

If they're both scum together, then it would be risky for MBL to try to protect Flay like this. In any case, if we really think that, we can use someone else to test Flay (or test Flay again tommorow with someone else, or whatever).

If MBL is scum and Flay isn't, I doubt he'll say "Flay is lying scum, lynch him", and then we lynch Flay and find out Flay was town; if he does, then that gives us a one-for-one trade, which is fine by me.

[Yosarian2]

Interesting.

Yeah, Flay needs to claim his targets here. He most likely is scum, but I like precise details, so we know what to think about MOS in case Flay flips town. So, Flay, you need to claim exactally who you targeted on day 1 and what you found out, and you need to do it now.

[Yosarian2]

I verified to myself that ABR is pro-town Day One; I can pull the exact post if you like, it came back 100% truthful. I already told you who I tried to target Day Two. That's the extent of my abilities.

Others: I can work with an entire post not just a single declarative statement, so I'd prefer if it combined truth and lies.

The difficulty being that it can't be someone who is an Aes Sedai

, for that reason... so either it's someone we already know not to be one, or who doesn't mind being outed.

Vote: Mr. Flay

Um...that's wrong, Kison. The reason it "couldn't be an aes sedai" was because Aes Sedi can't lie, so they could't give a mix of lies and truths, not because he couldn't target an aes sedi.

Anyway, if MOS is definatly saying that Flay did not target Albert day 1, then we can go ahead and lynch Flay. The way MOS has been vauge is a bit worrying, but I'm pretty happy with my vote on Mr. Flay today.

[Yosarian2]

Also, yeah, Benmage looks pretty bad here, I'd be in favor of lynching him tommorow if Flay flips scum.

[Yosarian2]

Um...that's wrong, Kison. The reason it "couldn't be an aes sedai" was because Aes Sedi can't lie, so they could't give a mix of lies and truths, not because he couldn't target an aes sedi.

As had already been pointed out twice prior to your post.

(shrug) If there's a page of stuff since the last time I have last posted, I generally respond as I see stuff, not after I've gotten all the way caught up.

[Yosarian2]

Well, for one, you've ignored 99% of the case against Mr. Flay, and only voted him and then unvoted him because of that misundersatanding. There are much better reasons to be voting Mr. Flay, and you seem to be ignoring them, which makes me think you're likely linked to him.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos2 Saying I ignored 99% just makes you look stupid, it’s a completely exaggerated statement. Even if I did only acknowledge the Kison note that alone would be more than 1%.

I think, as far as importance goes, "MOS claims Flay is lying about his role actions" is probably about 100 times more important then "Kirson thought there was some kind of misunderstanding". Not to mention all the other cases people like me and MOS brought against Flay in the first place; remember, he only claimed under pressure to begin with.

For the most part, you've ignored the Flay thing, making only very general comments like:

Woops @ Ooz, was confusing Faraday's RL excuse with Flay...that is more interesting. I will look further into Flay, ignore the rl excuse comment from before.

While never commenting on the specfics of his case, never really agreeing or disagreeing with any of them.

At most, you've made very, very vauge and wishy-washy comments like this:

You swear Flay to be scum. ABR is 99% sure jvw is scum... others wanna see Mufasa hung, who should we follow?

Honestly looking back at Flay, other than his odd continual tangent about Jester possibility his posts are generally pretty good, comprehensive and aren't simply one-liners, he isn't high on my 'scum-radar' yet. (I'm also not suggesting that good posting/contributing clears you from the possibility of scum, I just think there are much better cases out there than Flay.)

The whole things makes me think you are likely scum if Flay is scum, benmage. When one scum is attacked, it's very common for his scumbuddies to be generally reluctant to either attack him directly or defend him directly; they avoid commenting on it, talk around it. If they must make vauge wishy-washy comments like this, because they don't want their scumbuddy lynched, but on the other hand don't want to go down as having defended them either.

And after ignoring or being wishy-washy about the vast majority of the case against him, esepcally the most damning part, MOS's recent claim, and then voting and unvoting him based on a very bad reason in a way that looks more like weak distancing then anything else, yeah, I think you're likely scum if he's scum.

Regardless, I have been following the debate. I haven’t necessarily found the need to post, but as you can see through the last few pages I have been active and asked certain things at different times.

(nods) You have. Again, though, you've seemed very careful about actually commenting on it yourself or sharing your own thoughts; you've been much more willing to attack other people, like Kairyuu, but you've not wanted to either attack Flay, or defend him, or really comment at all on the main points against him. Why is that?

I understand the sentiment behind voting him; forgive me if I don’t find it as strong as you do.

I wouldn't mind so much if you said that you thought the reasons weren't strong; that's actually more of an opinion then you've stated all day, I think.

Why do you think the reasons against Flay are not strong? Could you explain why you don't think he's a good lynch, please?

If you are in erring here are you so willing to be strung up tomorrow?

Huh? That's an odd thing to say. You trying to scare me off of the Flay wagon now, Benmage?

I think Flay is probably scum, and I've been voting for him all day because of that. If I end up being wrong, and you want to attack me tommorow because I was wrong, feel free.

I don’t understand how my hesitance can be construed as scumminess I am simply waiting for Flay’s so called claim to be confirmed/denied.

Except Flay didn't actually check MBL's posts today; how do you expect his claim to be "confirmed or denied"?

Also...his "so called claim"? That's an odd phrasing.

[Yosarian2]

Sounds absolutely awful. The role is essentially a do nothing.

Meh. How useful would a scum lie detector be? I think Flay is scum, but I doubt he lied about being a lie detector, too easy to test. (Of course, we'd know for sure if he hadn't been hamered before he posted his "results", but whatever...) That's not an ability that scum are likely to have in a normal game, nor is it one that would be useful to a scum.

If Flay flips scum, which I think he will, then my assumption is going to be that the abilities people have are not always going to be those that make sense with their alignment, and that betting that "x has a pro-town looking ability, so x must be pro-town" would be a very dangerous bet.

[Yosarian2]

I was in the barn, randomized. Also, Mufasa's claim is confusing as hell.

[Yosarian2]

(nods)

Vote:Mufasa

Claim dosn't make any sense at all.

[Yosarian2]

Ya. My first win condition is a neutral one I win when any other faction meets their win condition

I have rarely seen a situation where lynching a claimed neutral was not a good idea.

[Yosarian2]

The problem is, even if you're neutral you're still a good lynch, mufasa, and I don't even think it's all that likely you're telling the truth here anyway, considering that your claim still dosn't add up.

[Yosarian2]

So he's claiming neutral, non-pro-town, gambler-pimp-roleblocker, with night actions that don't add up and a win condition he has yet to actually explain?

[Yosarian2]

(sing, to the tune of "that's amore")

Wheeennn the guy makes a claim and it's hurting your brain
That's-a lynch time.
When his claim's not pro-town and its making you frown
That's-a lynch time.
When there's no effing way that the role's real then, hey
That's-a lynch time.
When he claims to be scum, then be smart, don't be dumb
That's-a lynch time!

[Yosarian2]

By the way; mufasa; it probably won't make a difference, but I am curious. What, exactally, are you claiming your actual win condition is here? You've been very vauge.

[Yosarian2]

I have two win conditions the first I win when any other faction meets their win condition and two I win if I collect 10 coins

enough to live on for the rest of the game

at that point i am taking out of the game.
Bold is flavor by mod

10 coins? And you get 2 if you guess right, 1 if you guess wrong, and lose 1 if you roleblock, right?

So...the only way for you to win is to never spend any coins and guess right, what, 4 times while only guessing wrong once, in a situation where you only have like a 1 in 20 chance of guessing right, and you can't die before day 5? And despite this you've still been spending your coins in roleblocking?

That would be the worst role ever, and your actions don't make any sense in light of your claim anyway.

[Yosarian2]

Wow, game is moving fast...I checked it on Sunday and we were still in night, now I'm like 8 pages behind. Will catch up shortly...

[Yosarian2]

ABR, by now, would have drawn an investigation and it would have came out if he was guitly.

Instead, why would you kill a PR that is a constant source of suspicion?

That is horrible, horrible logic. I don't really see why a cop would investigate Albert, he's actually looked really pro-town this game, plus you're assuming there is a cop, which is already a huge assumption.

Anyway, I still think Benmage is very, very likely to be scum with Mr. Flay, for reasons I pointed out right before we lynched Flay.

When Kairyuu motivated me, there was only one kill.

That dosn't actually confirm you as town, by the way; all that means is that you probably didn't make the kill that night (or if you did one of them failed).

I don't actually see how a butler fits in with WoT flavor and I think it's weird kairyuu's pm supposedly has no flavor beyond a name. I do believe she's a motivator though.

Yeah...kariyuu's role flavor always seemed odd to me.

Ok...so MBL says he has a "good pro-town reason" for not lcaiming his sleeping location, and that's enough to wagon him? Seems a little extreme here, he might have a good role-based reason for that. He will have to explain later, and had better have a good explination too, but...not right now, methinks. It would be a bizzare scum gambit to make a claim like that without a good explination. Benmage looks even scummier, with his random demand for a "full role claim".

The Isacc lynch was started by me during the twilight of the Fabian lynch, and it further compounded by Yos2 and Slicey, and the Flay lynch was started by me and finished by me alone. In fact, you stated the following about Mr. Flay:

By you alone? I was after Mr. Flay as well from basically my very first post in the game.

Anyway, I was in the barn last night. For the record, I really don't care about either of the notes unless we find out where they're coming from; at least half the time when I've seen an ability like that, it was a scum ability. Honestly, I'm wondering if someone motivated whoever has the ability "post fake notes at the start of each day" and let/forced them to use their ability twice, since this is the first time we've seen 2 notes in the same day.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, and

Vote:Benmage

.

[Yosarian2]

Ben, you may have claimed AS, but you're not confirmed.
Nice to see people are FINALLY waking up to the ABR wagon again after the pile of crap that was the Benmage wagon. Anger isn't a scumtell, people.

Um...I never said anger is a scumtell. However, trying to protect a scum like Mr. Flay from being lynched, the way Benmage did, is obviously a HUGE scumtell. He defended scum, pure and simple.

His ability claim may be true, but as I said before, I doubt abilities and alignments are linked. It's quite possible that there are multiple people with the same abilities, except some of them are scum. Also, from the books, black aes sedi could take warders, and Forsaken could mentally dominate people and control them.

Nothing in Benmage's claim has convinced me to unvote him, and the knee-jerk way he then tried to claim that the wagon against him must be scum driven dosn't make me feel compelled to unvote him either.

Benmage: What, exactally, is a "warder" in game terms? Do you control them? Are you linked to them? If you die, does your warder die? (I'm asking these questions because that is how it worked in the books, especally that last one.)

[Yosarian2]

Hmm, I might as well get this out here now, before I end up dead or anything. I have reason to believe that Mr. Flay and Fabian were the only members of their mafia group. I didn't think it through before while I suspected Benmage, but I am now almost certain that there are no more Survivor mafia.

Really?

A 2 man mafia group in a game this size seems somewhat improbable, especally if town really has ten zillion minor power roles like everyone is claiming.

[Yosarian2]

I think that 2 of the teams are fully clear, and of the remaining two, there are 2-3 Black Ajah members contained within. That means that, of the 5 living Aes Sedai, 2-3 of them are scum. The most likely of these to be scum is Albert, given his marvelous track record of lying through his teeth, which leaves either Benmage/Sajin or the mystery partner of one of the dead ones to be confirmed town.

...I'm not sure where you're getting these numbers from, Kariyuu. There probably are some black aes sedi, but we don't know if there's 1 of them or, like, 5 of them, or anywhere in between, nor do we have any way of knowing how they would be distributed. For that matter, we don't even know for sure that all the people who claimed to be Aes Sedi actually are, although the pairs thing makes it very likely.

[Yosarian2]

Eh...I donno, I think in the books the forsaken had the black aes sedi pretty much cowed.

[Yosarian2]

Still no reason to assume there is a third Forsaken.
.

Even if you have flavor reason to believe there were only two forsaken, that dosn't mean there might not be more people in that mafia group. I'd expect Forsaken to usually have other darkfriends or shadowspawn working for them...

[Yosarian2]

Even if you have flavor reason to believe there were only two forsaken, that dosn't mean there might not be more people in that mafia group. I'd expect Forsaken to usually have other darkfriends or shadowspawn working for them...

I have mechanic reasons to believe there are only two forsaken. It has nothing to do with the flavor. That would be way too tenuous for any sort of certainty.

Again, though, even if there are only two forsaken, that does not mean that there are only two people in the forsake's scum group. One does not necessarally follow from the other...

[Yosarian2]

The points armlx raise against Albert, especally about things that were either mistakes or lies on his part, are interesting.

On a side note, my main suspect is still Benmage, for a strong possible link to Flay and a claim that's very vauge, dosn't make a lot of sense, and is completly unproven. (I realize that MOS thinks Flay was part of a 2 man scum group, but until I see some evidence for that, I'm still not seeing that as the most likely possibility here.)

[Yosarian2]

How is my claim possibly unproven. My detects are undeniable as any AS can concur. Sajin affirms it. KoC/MoS have reasons to understand what i've stated.

Are you really this bad?

Detects are not proof of anything. I have no doubt that black aes sedi can detect the one power as well as anyone else. For that matter, from a flavor perspective, I wouldn't be surprised if Forsaken would be able to detect as well.

What *is* unproven, and improbable in my opinion, is your vauge, undefined, and apparently never sucessful attempts to make someone into a warder.

Also, random insults are not going to help you here.

[Yosarian2]

I can see Benmage as Black Ajah, (though Ben+ABR as a pair stretches it a little,)but Flay was Forsaken, and had apparent ties to the Forsaken Fabian. Benmage is confirmed Aes Sedai by Sajin -- i.e. not Forsaken -- so ties to Flay seem to me like the wrong tree to bark up there.

Well, you're assuming that Forsaken and Black Ajah would be rival scum groups. I'm still not convinced of that; I would expect them to be on the same side, since they're all darkfriends; there are pleanty of other bad groups in the WOT universe who would better fit the role of a second scum group. (For example, I could see a whitecloak scum group, something like that). I guess we'll know more if and when we catch and lynch a Black Ajah.

[Yosarian2]

3.) There is a subset of this game that, really, I forget are playing. In this grouping: JVW, Arm, Goat, Yos I would bet there is at least A scum, if not more.
--- My money is on Yos. I'd almost vote for him now but too lazy to make the full case.

Excuse me?

How could you have forgotten I was playing?

Not only have I been consistantly active this game, I was also a major force behind the Issac lynch and the Mr Flay lynch. Not only have I been active this game, I've been quite effective at scumhunting as well. And I've posted a lot today as well; I'm sure everyone knows who I'm suspicious of, for example.

If you "fogot I was playing", you really aren't paying attention to the game...

[Yosarian2]

I could go for Benmage, ABR, and Yos2 lynches. Yos2's inactivity is not like him. I'm smelling lurking scum here.

Inactivity???

Dude, I've post 13 times in the past 6 days. What more do you want of me?

The only time I didn't post was during that long period when we were at twilight/night at the beginning of this month, and that's because it's really not helpful to speculate about anything while the scum are trying to decide who to kill and while we're waiting for alignment reveal.

[Yosarian2]

I actually have no clue who you are suspicious of, because you haven't posted very much today.

I have trouble believing that you have no idea who I'm suspicious of, honestly, consdiering most of my recent posts have been attacks on Benmage, I'm voting for him, and most of the rest of my recent posts have and arguing against your or TSS's assertions that there was no sense attacking Benmage for possible Flay links. (You were arguing that becaue you were trying to argue Flay was part of a 2 man scum group, which you withdrew; now TSS is arguing it because he dosn't think a black aes sedi could be in the same scum group as a Forsaken, which I don't agree with.) So, yeah, I still think Benmage is scum with Flay; I think his claim stinks, especally the part about "making warders" or whatever but not having any idea what that actually means (I think everyone esle who claimed so far has been pretty knowlegable about what their role abilities do, haven't they?)

You've been averaging a little over a post a day lately, when the thread itself has been averaging over 100 posts a day, with only 16 players! That means the average player is making about 5-6 posts a day, so forgive me if I'm not buying your admonitions about people forgetting you are in this game.

Meh. If I'm posting more then once a day, without missing any days or having any periods of lurking that's pretty darn active, by any normal mafiascum standards, especally considering this isn't a speed game or anything. I'm glad this game is moving at a good pace, but that hardly gives you room to attack someone who's posting twice a day as "inactive".

[Yosarian2]

@Ben, Kai, Yos, ABR, Goat, MbL:

Night 2 Locations, please. If you've given them and I've missed it let me know again.

Um...I'm not postive. It might be the windmill, but I didn't label these PM's, and it's a bit confusing...let me double check with the mod.

[Yosarian2]

In general making a Warder is exactly what I would expect a Green's ability to be.

Except I would expect a green with that ability to actually KNOW what the ability does. "Making someone into a warder" is way to vauge. I mean...does it let you talk to them at night? Or during the day? Does it make them into your "neighbor"? Does it confirm their alignment? Does it recruit them into your scumgroup? Does it make you their "lover" (IE: you die, they die)? Does it give you control over their vote? Does it act like a doc protection (this one is a streach, but there was one point in the WOT books where Elane made Bridgitte into her warder, thus accelerating her healing process and saving her life from wounds)?

Any of those could be a logical way to make "warder" into a mafia role, and I could go on. "Making someone into a warder" is not a mafia ability. It could be the flavor basis for a mafia ability, but no one else this game has claimed a vauge, flavorish ability where they don't really know what it does.

[Yosarian2]

This is just bad play/reasoning.

Dude...you defended scum, and tried to stop him from being lynched. Ergo, you are a very good suspect for his scumbuddy. Plus your claim has some very serious problems with it that make it hard to believe.

None of that is "bad play" or "bad reasoning", and you can't make it so by just saying that.

[Yosarian2]

MOS: I'd be willing to go along with the partial claim if the town agrees on it. I don't know exactally what the point is, though; why is that better then, say, pressuring suspicious people and letting them claim instead of being lynched the normal way? What good does it do the town, exactally, to know if there are 10, or 12, or 14 Aes Sedi?

On a side note, the mod PM'd me back, and yes, I was in the windmill night 2.

[Yosarian2]

In Favor (and unclaimed):

Mastermind of Sin
Knight of Cydonia
thesilentspeaker
julienvonwolfe
Yosarian2
armlx
Moratorium
MrBuddyLee

Um, excuse me, I pretty clearly did not say that I was not in favor of it...

I would appriciate if you would at least answer the question I asked you about why it would be better for everyone to just claim now.

[Yosarian2]

Eh, MBL already started. I guess there's no point in waiting now.

I am Aes Sedi.

Not a fan of how MOS railroaded this though without explaining why it was supposed to be a good idea, though.

[Yosarian2]

Goatrevolt can go next, I suppse.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, now that I'm claimed...one thing that disturbes me is that there actaully is a line in the Aes Sedi role PM, I'm not going to quote it directly right here, but it basically says that you aren't allowed to state that you know someone is scum if you don't know that or else you're breaking the first oath' all of you Aes Sedi know what I'm talking about. Didn't Albert quite specifically do that?

[Yosarian2]

Hmmm...partners is a reasonable thing to claim, I suppose.

That's it, though. Nothing else for now. We don't want people claiming their colors or their roles. Which means we also probably don't want any more detection claims; we know who can use the one power, basically everyone, so just saying "Hey, someone in X location used the one power" is useless, except to figure out who has what role.

Anyway, my partner is julienvonwolfe.

[Yosarian2]

2. Targets
...
4. Detections

These are terrible ideas. What you're doing, Goat, is basically trying to get a full claim in through the back door here.

If everyone claims targets, then it will quickly become obvious who, for example, was targeting people who they said they suspect and who was targeting people who they said they trust. Then it's easy for the scum to figure out who's a doc, who's a cop, who's a roleblocker, ect.

[Yosarian2]

I think the next step is for people to reveal whether or not they used an ability each night.

You realize that this will right away tell the scum who has a useful ability and who does not, right?

[Yosarian2]

Maybe I’m missing it… explain how this is more beneficial to the scum?

(shrug)

Person A claims he used an ability every single night.

Person B claims he has never used an ability at any point in the game.

You're scum. Who would you guess has an ability that's likely to be more of a threat to them? Out of player A and player B, which one is likely to be a cop, or a doctor, or a roleblocker, or some other key pro-town role? Who would you choose to kill?

Assuming that some people have used abilities more then other people, this helps scum figure out who to kill. (and if not, of course, it's useless anyway).

[Yosarian2]

Let me make this perfectly clear:

Telling the scum what your roles are is NOT overly damaging to the town

There's 16 people left. If some people have a strong, important power role, and some don't, then a massclaim would tell the scum who to kill.

If a game started on day 1 with 16 people, would you want to do a massclaim then?

It's especally problimatic becuase, while it helps the scum to a HUGE degree, I don't think it'll really help the town much. I would suspect that any black aes sedi scum is likely to have some "normal" aes sedi role ability they could claim, and be able to confirm, if needed.

[Yosarian2]

@Goat: It's simple. We already have records of all sleeping locations of living players, and therefore, when people claim targets we can cross-reference the sleeping locations of both the targetter and the target with the detection results that are then revealed, and if the to-from setup doesn't match up, we have scum caught either lying about sleeping locations or targets, and neither of those can be construed to be ANYTHING but a lie (and even has the "with the intent to deceive" corrallary that Albert is pushing).

Like SpyreX said, it's a logic puzzle, and one we have a good chance of solving.

Those were my contributions on the subject, which you must have missed.

I understand this. What you seem to be missing is that, especally now that everyone has claimed all their locations, it would be quite easy for any scum to truthfully claim both where they slept and to claim they targeted a person from the same building as they actaully did.

If we were going to do a massclaim like this, we should have done it before we claimed locations. Now, it's pointless, and only helps the scum.

[Yosarian2]

Benmage: Uh, I'd rather not go into a great deal of speculation on what roles might be in the game, that seems unhelpful. I would say that, with 16 Aes Sedi, it's not possible that they ALL had real power roles, or else the game could not possibly be balanced. I think any farther talk on roles, or unneeded claims, or abulity claims, only helps the scum at this moment.

[Yosarian2]

One of the things that should have been asked with partner claiming: Do you think your partner could be Black Ajah? Why or why not?

I would hope that most pro-town people who thought they had a special reason to suspect their partner would say so now anyway...

Personally, I haven't really talked with my partner outside of the thread, so I don't have any special insight into him. For that matter, now that I think about it, Julianwolfe has been kind of flying under the radar in the thread as well. I'd be interested to hear more from him, especally about who he suspects; looking back at his posts, I'm not really sure who he suspects today.

[Yosarian2]

One more thing. To augment the information Sajin is providing, I need the following: target claim from Yosarian and

once this is made

Setael presents his detected saidar. With this information, I may be able to trap a scum in a red-handed lie -- possibly two.

Uh, ok. You've seemed pro-town to me, so. I'll trust you have some good reason for this, TSS. No one else should claim anything just because I am...

Last night, I targeted MOS.

The two days before that, I targeted ABR both times. Twilight 1, I'm not positive who the guy I repleced targeted, if anyone; I'll check.

[Yosarian2]

Actually, I'm not 100% sure if I got all 3 of those targets in before the end of the day, either, so they may not have counted; the timing of this game still confuses me a bit. I sent the mod a PM asking for everyone I've targeted and what nights, so let's wait for that.

[Yosarian2]

TSS:

Actually, I'm not 100% sure if I got all 3 of those targets in before the end of the day, either, so they may not have counted; the timing of this game still confuses me a bit. I sent the mod a PM asking for everyone I've targeted and what nights, so let's wait for that.

Still waiting for this. I don't quite know what you're trying to do, although I have some idea, but let's please wait for mod confirmation on exactally who I have targeted before Setael claims detections.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, got a response from the mod, and I was correct. No target night 1, night 2+3 I targeted ABR, night 4 I targeted MOS.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, got a response from the mod, and I was correct. No target night 1, night 2+3 I targeted ABR, night 4 I targeted MOS.

Did you role-block or still me?

...

Something is very fishy here. Hold on, I have to check one thing with the mod.

[Yosarian2]

I hope the mod responds to me soon here. I'm going to be leaving V/LA for the mafia beach bash later tonight (for those who don't know what I'm talking about, it's here: viewtopic.php?t=9109&start=0, and I really hope we can get this hashed out now, because I think Albert may have just made a major scum slip.

Fixed a broken tag, mod

[Yosarian2]

Ummm...that's really odd. I posted this, and now when I look at the thread, it looks like a blank post. Very strange. Well, let me post it again...


I hope the mod responds to me soon here. I'm going to be leaving V/LA for the mafia beach bash later tonight (for those who don't know what I'm talking about, it's here: viewtopic.php?t=9109&start=0, and I really hope we can get this hashed out now, because I think Albert may have just made a major scum slip.

Fixed a broken tag, mod

[Yosarian2]

Testing?

[Yosarian2]

I have no idea why post 2809 and 2810 look blank, but when I quote them, I can see what i said there...

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, but hit the quote button, and you can see my post. It's really strange, never seen that forum bug before...

[Yosarian2]

Ah...for some reason, when I post a link to the thread in GD about the beach bash, to let people know why I'm going to be V/LA soon, my entire post dissapears. Very, very odd...

Anyway, this was the post, with the link removed. If you want to see the GD threat I was linking to, just go to the GD forum, it's stickied on top. Anyway...

I hope the mod responds to me soon here. I'm going to be leaving V/LA for the mafia beach bash later tonight (for those who don't know what I'm talking about, it's here: (link removed so this post works this time) and I really hope we can get this hashed out now, because I think Albert may have just made a major scum slip

[Yosarian2]

Ok, got a response from the mod, and I was correct. No target night 1, night 2+3 I targeted ABR, night 4 I targeted MOS.

Did you role-block or still me?

...

Something is very fishy here. Hold on, I have to check one thing with the mod.

All right, I'm not sure if I'm going to just hear from the mod in time or not, since I'm leaving tonight and still have to pack and everything, so let me just say this.

ABR: How the hell did you know I roleblocked you?

Yes, I am a red Aes Sedi, the same role ABR claimed. (This was actually why I roleblocked him; at the time, I was doubtfull there would be 2 red Aes Sedi roleblockers who were both pro-town). So, yes, I really could only either still or roleblock ABR. (Well, or gentile him).

However, I do NOT have any kind of investivative ability or anything else that would give me a hint that I was roleblocked.

So, I can't possibly imagine how ABR could know this.

Only two possibilities come to mind:

1. He tried to kill someone and it failed, so he suspects he was roleblocked.

2. He somehow knew I was red ajah, and therefore could only either still or roleblock him, even though I have never claimed or even hinted at that in thread at all. There is only one person in the game who knows that I am red ajah, and it's my partner, JVW. The only way I could think of that he could know that would be if ABR was scum WITH JVW and JVW told him my role.

So...I'm thinking Albert is scum who tried to kill somoene and therefore knows he was roleblocekd, or he's scum with JVW and therefore knows I'm red ajah. I have no other abilities that might tell me what ajah someone is, so I can't imagine Albert does either, unless he has some fancy extra ability for being black ajah.

The ONLY other possibility is if people are told when they get roleblocked in this game. My role dosn't say anything like this, and I have no reason to think that it is true, although I suppose it's possible since the flavor of roleblocking someone is to put a shield around them to cut off their access to the One Power. That's what I was waiting for from the mod; I sent the mod a PM asking if people would know if I roleblocked them, trying to rule out that possibility. I don't think it's likely, adding a "terget knows he was roleblocked" thing onto a roleblocker just makes it more powerful by making it 100% confirmable, but I hope we'll find out shortly when the mod tells me.

So, ABR; how, exactally ,did you know that you got roleblocked? I didn't even attack you in thread, since my only reason for suspecting you was flavor-based based on my role and I didn't want to claim my own role.

[Yosarian2]

I can think of other reasons why ABR might have guessed it, but I'll let ABR defend himself. More importantly, Yos2, who did you target Night 1, and what ability did you use?

As I said, night 1, the person I replaced targeted no one. Perhaps because he had gone inactive, I don't know.

Last night, I targeted you with a "gentiling", MOS; assuming you were telling the truth about being an Aes Sedi, this should have had absolutly no effect on you. (I bascially didn't want to roleblock again, because I was starting to suspect that everyone in this game had some kind of ability, and I didn't have anything else useful to do.) This was actually the choice I almost missed getting in, since I almost didn't bother, but the mod confirmed I did get it in on time.

[Yosarian2]

Well if you tell me that you targeted me, I want to know if you stopped me from using my abilities because that would change the way I see the game.

Specifically, I wanted to know if I was role-blocked because that would in turn have canceled my roleblock of Moratorium, which would mean that he isn't any more scummy because the night I role-blocked him there was only one kill iirc.

Ok, but that seemed incredibly specific; "did you still or role-block me" when those are my only active abilities (again, except for gentiling) really makes me think you already knew my role...

[Yosarian2]

Um...what, TSS? I'm sure that anyone who did detections can confirm that I have told the truth about all of my actions.

[Yosarian2]

And what does SpyreX have to do with anything?

[Yosarian2]

Ok, I'm back from V/La. I've got a bunch of games to catch up on, I'll work on that as soon as I can.

[Yosarian2]

I still haven't caught up and haven't read most of the thread from the past week yet, but I'm currently trying to figure out what's going on with the Albert/Moratorium thing. I just sent the mod a PM asking him what happens with the timing and such if one roleblocker targets another roleblocker.

[Yosarian2]

Ah. Ah. Ok.

He had a pretty complicated explination, but it sounds like if two abilities are similar or identical, and if they both resolve in the same period (with the periods being either rapid, twilight, or daylight), then they will both resolve at the same time, and neither ability will affect the other.

So, if I shielded Albert and he shielded someone else at the same time, then my roleblocking of him wouldn't prevent him from roleblocking someone else. On the other hand, if I role-blocked him and he used an ability that resolves at a later time, like trying to kill someone, then he would have been stopped.

So, TSS, this entire theory of yours is based on a misunderstanding of the rules. Ask the mod yourself if you want. It is completly possible that all three of us are telling the truth. Of course, that wouldn't actually clear any of us as innocent, and in fact makes Albert's origional case against Moratorium stronger.

[Yosarian2]

I'm also wondering why no one else even bothered to just clarify the rules there with the mod, but, whatever.

[Yosarian2]

So, TSS, this entire theory of yours is based on a misunderstanding of the rules.

It's actually MOS's. My theory is that you are Forsaken if and only if JVW is Forsaken. In fact, I specifically said that the 1-1+1 involving you was less than a mortal lock. It's just that resolving you will, in the best case, automatically resolve all the rest with no mislynches, and in the worst case, knock down two scum for one more mislynch with possibly two more scum available for the taking at any time.

...

I have absolutly no idea what you're talking about. probably because I haven't read the thread yet.

So...your theory is that a pair of the claimed aes sedi are actually lying forsaken?

[Yosarian2]

Yos, I've just demonstrated that either you or ABR is scum who roleblocked ShadowKnight... no comments?

Well, as I already said, I didn't roleblock anyone night 1.

Could you explain exactally how you know that either me or ABR roleblocked Shadowknight? Did he claim he was roleblocked?

[Yosarian2]

Oh, ok, so it's because SK said that "everyone" was going to target Spyrex, and then he apparently didn't, so you're assuming he was roleblocked and killed by the scum the same night? Is that really all this is based on, MBL?

I don't really understand why you think scum would want to do that, MBL. If Spyrex is what he says he is, the mafia wouldn't mind him being gentiled, losing his powers, and thus not becoming a SK, right? Plus with some unknown number of people doing the gentiling, it's not likely roleblocking him would do anything anyway. Plus, wouldn't a scum roleblocker much rather try to block some ability that'd actually be a threat to the scum?

The only way I could see a scum roleblocker trying to do that is if SPyrex is actually a male forsaken and thus the scum didn't want him gentiled, or something,and that's a streach.

In any case, the timing in this game is all kinds of bizzare. Looking at my role PM, gentiling dosn't seem to be a twilight ability. Based on what the mod told me before, I suspect that if a scum has a twilight killing ability, that would therefore take place before the gentiling ability, so he wouldn't have had a chance to use the ability.

[Yosarian2]

There is no role conflict when one roleblocker targets another one. That roleblocker loses their action, obviously.

In this game, MOS, that is simply wrong. I checked with the mod.

If two roleblockers have the same ability that happens in the same "phase" (in this case, twilight), then they both happen at the same time, which means that one roleblocker simply can not roleblock another one.

If you don't believe me, ask the mod yourself.

[Yosarian2]

I do believe that Spyre should be gentled tonight.

Regardless, in the extraordinarily unlikely event that SK didn't gentle, he would have attempted to Bond Warder as Benmage has, and would have shown up on Saidar.

SK was roleblocked, with 98% certainty, unless someone has an otherwise unexplained Saidar usage for him. Which we don't.

Or unless him being killed prevented his action from going through, which is entierly possible with these timing rules, depending on exactally when the kill resolves and his action resolves. Or unless he failed to get his move in on time, which is also quite possible because of the unusual timing and lack of true "nights" in this game; I nearly failed to get my night 3 move in myself.

I just don't get why some random scum would have wanted to roleblock SK, unless Spyrex is a male forsaken or something, especally if the scum were planning on killing SK anyway. I suppose it's also possible Spyrex himself tried to roleblock SK, but that would only make sense if Spyrex was being less then honest with us day 1.

[Yosarian2]

Killing appears to be daybreak. Actions are twilight.

Many actions are. However, as I already expained, gentiling is not a twilight action. In my role PM, it's listed as an "active" ability, but not as a "twilight" ability, while shileding is listed as a "twilight" ability. I'm not exactally sure what that means, though, or how it would compare to a kill.

And why

wouldn't

scum RB a claimed Aes Sedai D1? Who better to block?

Because that Aes Sedi was clearly going to gentile Spyrex?

If Spyrex was who he said he was (town with abilities who could become a SK with abilities), then it seems like it would be in the scum's best interest to let the town gentile him and make him vanillia, wouldn't it? This is the part of your theory I'm not getting.

Albert claims to have roleblocked either Kairyuu or Isacc, an issue he never cleared up fully. Nor did he explain why he blocked them. My guess is, he actually blocked ShadowKnight, who was likely at the Blacksmith with Isacc/Kairyuu. #2 option: Yos blocked SK and claims he didn't get orders in.

Well, again, it should be easy enough to confirm that I didn't use the one power night one, based on detections. I don't really get why you'd think it might be possible for me to lie about that. I'm also not sure why you'd be surprised or doubtful that Tenchi didn't get an action in night 1, considering he asked to be replaced on May 3.

As for Albert...sure, it's possible he's a scum roleblocker, and I could see voting for him today. I don't really think your argument proves it at all, though.

[Yosarian2]

Killing appears to be daybreak. Actions are twilight.

Many actions are. However, as I already expained, gentiling is not a twilight action. In my role PM, it's listed as an "active" ability, but not as a "twilight" ability, while shileding is listed as a "twilight" ability. I'm not exactally sure what that means, though, or how it would compare to a kill.

Dude, there are like 6 detects of people gentling SpyreX N1. Are you actually following this game?

Yes, gentiling would be a use of the one power, and we would be able to detect it if it had happened. That has absolutly nothing to do with what I just said.

I said that gentiling does not appear to be a twilight ability based on my role PM, and that I wasn't sure if him being killed would prevent it from happening at all or not.

To go along with this, perhaps Isacc had an aura of nullification or something like that.

KoC was also dismembered, most likely by Isaac. Yet his twilight action went through. So there was no blocking aura from Isacc that kept SK's action from going through or being detected.

Yeah, that dosn't really make sense flavorwise anyway.

Albert was lying about his roleblock and quickly retracted it before he got caught as a lying claimed Aes Sedai.

He did not mention Kairyuu all day one, and yet claimed to roleblock him. He only mentioned Isacc once, and yet claimed to roleblock him. And we're supposed to accept that it's coincidence that both of those two slept in the same place as SK, who was Albert's actual RB?

Yes, ShadowKnight slept at the Blacksmith N1. I can confirm this. I believe Albert may have blocked ShadowKnight N1, which is why Setael didn't detect a Blacksmith->Stables Saidar use.

This makes sense. I could certanly see Albert as scum here.

[Yosarian2]

There is no role conflict when one roleblocker targets another one. That roleblocker loses their action, obviously.

In this game, MOS, that is simply wrong. I checked with the mod.

If two roleblockers have the same ability that happens in the same "phase" (in this case, twilight), then they both happen at the same time, which means that one roleblocker simply can not roleblock another one.

If you don't believe me, ask the mod yourself.

This is terrible.
Does this mean Roleblock can’t block any twilight actions? Wouldn’t that be the next logical step?

Yes, that is correct. Unless someone else has a rapid speed roleblock, twilight actions can't be roleblocked.

[Yosarian2]

@Benmage/Sajin/Yos/TSS, do these match your N1 detects?

River
One to Barn
One to Stables
One to Silo

Actually, I never actually got my night 1 detects from the mod when I replaced in on day 2. I guess I'll ask him for them now.

Can a roleblocker confirm that RB is a twilight activity?

Mine is, yes.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, my mistake, I did get them from the mod. I got about 4 PM's from the mod right after I replaced in...

I was at the river, and I detected 1 target to stables, 1 target to barn, 1 target to silo.

[Yosarian2]

I had a thought. Posit moratorium scum, Albert town, Yosarian town. Albert blocks Moratorium, scum kill fails, fine. If Yosarian blocks Albert, Albert's block fails, Moratorium's kill goes through, not fine:

Yosarian has used the Power and so caused someone to die

. This violates the Third Oath, and as a result Yosarian cannot do it. His action does not go through. Is this a plausible explanation of events?

Well, the mod has already established that, so long as Albert and my roleblockes both happened in twilight, my roleblock on him would have had no effect.

That being said...you actually might be right, considering how the third oath in role PM is written. It even specifically gives, as an example, a roleblocekr targeting a doctor and thus allowing a kill as an example, and actually says that the role "would not resolve" in that case.

Actually...I don't think it matters in this case, but I'm glad you brought it up, because this could cause random actions to fail unexpectedly, which could screw with the whole detections thing.

[Yosarian2]

I'm pretty sure daybreak effects show up on Detect Saidar.

Right, but if you're killed by a twilight act, you don't get to do your daybreak act; it never happens. Also, if you're target is killed by a twilight act, and you target him with a daybreak act, that would also probably never happen. SOmething that never happens would not show up on Detect Saidar.

[Yosarian2]

I think the question is more, "Would the mod design the game such that scum will stand out like sore thumbs when they commit nightkills?"

Hmm.

Well, if all the scum really are either forsaken or black aes sedi, then I would assume they're using the one power when they kill people.

I'm trying to remember if anyone in the books had an ability to hide one power usage from being detected, and I can't remember. Does anyone else who knows the flavor better then me remember anything like that?

[Yosarian2]

And, again with the flavor and I swear I'm going to get a venn diagram if thats what it takes: we've seen nothing nor does the flavor equate to Black Ajah being separate from Forsaken. Nothing.

So its really disconcerting when its brought up like an or as if -get this- someone knows something about the scum setup that I sure don't.

Why, who said that?

[Yosarian2]

Although Forsaken at this time were predominately at this time female some could be male and thus using an undetected One Power.

That's true, but by the same token, a male forsaken probably wouldn't be able to claim aes sedi, since he'd be caught because he couldn't be detected. Since almost everyone claimed aes sedi, I assume any scum in that group would at least be able to use the female side of the one power. Which probably means black aes sedi or forsaken, although there are other possibilities I guess.

[Yosarian2]

Why, who said that?

You just did

Well, if all the scum really are either forsaken or black aes sedi,

But it was more a flashback to the TSS-esque if X is Forsaken vs if X is Black Ajah which is implying no overlap that concerns me.

Well, no; we know there are (or at least were) scum forsake, and there are so many claimed Aes Sedi some of them must be scum. I never said they must be seperate scum groups; I actually argued the opposte.

Although Forsaken at this time were predominately at this time female some could be male and thus using an undetected One Power.

Umm, what?

I dont want to choo-choo flavor ho but we're dealing with a period that I don't remember there being that much specifics about.

We were trying to figure out how it could be balanced if town can detect all scum kills. Ben pointed out that one possibility is if the scum are instead men who can channel, especally male forsaken; then we wouldn't detect them.

[Yosarian2]

This was disproven D1 when Fabian could not tell that the One Power had not been used yet, which was one of the major contributing factors in his lynch. If there are Black Ajah (almost certain at this point) then they must be part of a separate scum faction from Fabian and Flay or else fabian must have been foolish enough not to check with them before claiming detections.

Meh. He did claim that he could, though, which seems odd if he had no way of getting that information. He screwed up his fakeclaim seven ways from sunday, in any case.

[Yosarian2]

I think Setael is scum of that pairing, but I think that we will know for sure by resolving Yosarian-Cydonia-JVW. Even if JVW is not 1-1 with Cydonia, Yosarian is (assuming Setael scum) and Yosarian is implicated in outside links as well. We could have had Sajin/Setael as a freebie.

Were you planning on ever explaining any of this, TSS? This is like the second time you just stated I was scum because some obscure theory, and you didn't explain it when I asked you what you were talking about before, either.

[Yosarian2]

I targeted Moratorium.

Also, I notice there were no kills last night. Which now makes this the second time that Moratorium was roleblocked and that there was a kill missing on the same night.

[Yosarian2]

I actually just want to vote him right now, but I suppose you guys think we should wait for the whole dreary monotonous buisness of getting everyone to claim all their targets and then claim all the detections on the incredibly unlikey chance we might catch someone in a lie, even though we haven't done so yet this game and even though scum would have to be incredibly stupid to lie about their targets.

[Yosarian2]

I actually just want to vote him right now, but I suppose you guys think we should wait for the whole dreary monotonous buisness of getting everyone to claim all their targets and then claim all the detections on the incredibly unlikey chance we might catch someone in a lie, even though we haven't done so yet this game and even though scum would have to be incredibly stupid to lie about their targets.

Did you forget how we nailed Mr. Flay?

Actually, I nailed Flay because I noticed a link between him and Fabian. But I see your point.

[Yosarian2]

:Headdesk:

Good job, benmage. Now we get no information from Mort's claim, and we get no infromation if another blue claims. The whole idea was to test Mort's claim by asking him what color he was, or else to test the hypothetical other blue's claim by getting that guy to claim first; either way we might have gotten something. So why would you speculate on what color he was first rather then see that?

[Yosarian2]

Perhaps, but why did you feel the need to say that? Did you think that was a pro-town thing to do?

[Yosarian2]

ACtually, TSS had a good poitn.

Why is everyone claiming color now?

[Yosarian2]

ACtually, TSS had a good poitn.

Why is everyone claiming color now?

Because some people will have to triple up on colors, and those people are probably scum.

I don't at all get your logic here. ARe you assumign the ajah that have 3 members instead of 2 would have all the black ajah aes sedi? Becuase that would seem like very poor game design if true. Or are you assuming some people who are claimed aes sedi are lying?

[Yosarian2]

The points armlx raise against Albert, especally about things that were either mistakes or lies on his part, are interesting.

armlx never made points against ABR in thread. Are you referring to the points he made in the scum QT?

Did you actually read the relevent section of the thread? If you did, then it should have been obvious that I was talking about the points TSS had just raised against Albert involving him possibly lying in thread. Armlx had apparently agreed with those points, since he just fos'd him, but it was actually TSS's points. Wasn't that clear from context, MBL?

[Yosarian2]

Also, I'd be pretty happy lynching charter today; Albert's been high on my list of suspects for a long time, and I don't get why he'd block the motivator.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, so Amyrlin Seat is the title for a former AS who now leads the mainstream AS sect. Got it. I guess this means we have one more nonstandard AS.. possibly another Amyrlin Seat from the rebel AS?

That would only happen during the time of the wheel of time series; I don't think there were many times in WOT history when there were two different competing Aes Sedi Amyriln.

Anyway, the claim does make sense; the Amyrlin Seat is always a person who was in one of the Ajah, but when they move up to Amyriln Seat they are no longer technically in a Ajah. I don't think it says anything about anyone's alignment, though.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, these were my detections. i was at the windmill, apparently.
I detected

1 from the Barn
1 from the Windmill
2 from the Blacksmith
1 to the River
1 to the Barn
1 to the Blacksmith
1 to the Windmill

[Yosarian2]

@all: I would be happy with either a charter lynch or a Moratorium lynch today.

/agreed

[Yosarian2]

How did I defend Benmage? I think what he did was absolutely RETARDED, and I've been very clear about that...are you even reading the thread, KoC?

Funny, that's not how I remember it.

First, you actually defended his action:

And now you've gone and fucked it up. Thanks, Benmage.
That was done so inelegantly, it's almost impossible to believe that wasn't intentional.

I'm going to have to agree with Benmage. That was a horrible trap. Now if the other person who was going to claim blue is Black Ajah, they will just say they are a tracker. What if not every pairing has been as forthcoming to each other as we have? Moratorium told me he was Blue Ajah at the very start of the game, there was no way he was going to be able to change his claim just because you put him on the spot.

Then, you called him an "idiot", but implied that it had nothing to do with his alignment.

:Headdesk:

Good job, benmage. Now we get no information from Mort's claim, and we get no infromation if another blue claims. The whole idea was to test Mort's claim by asking him what color he was, or else to test the hypothetical other blue's claim by getting that guy to claim first; either way we might have gotten something. So why would you speculate on what color he was first rather then see that?

*Stare* it was the worst trap ever...geeze

No, we should have had the other Blue claim before revealing Moratorium's color. It was idiocy to do otherwise. But then, that's par for the course for you, isn't it?

It's subtle, but that post kind of looks like a "Benmage is just being an idiot, don't mind him" defense of benmage's alignment to me.

I didn't really have a problem with you defending benmage, MOS, but I find it odd you're now denying it.

[Yosarian2]

Everyone was mad at me because they wanted Mort to claim first. MoS was mad at me because he wanted the other blue to go first. We would’ve sat in an endless circle with both sides waiting for the other, and so what I threw a random shot in the dark.

Either way, we might have gotten some information. You made absolutly sure we got none. Why, exactally, did you "throw a random shot in the dark"? Do you understand it's bad to be speculating about other people's roles like that, right?

It was such a god awful trap, play better.

Who was this directed at? It wasn't my trap.

Anyway, your play there was just anti-town, no matter how you look at it; griping about how "it was a bad trap" or whatever does not excuse anti-town role speculation on your part at all, not even a little bit.

I’ve been so town this game it hurts.

:eyebrow:

[Yosarian2]

MoS KNEW HIS AJAH before hand anyways. So there was no lying to be done…. Do you believe both to be scum?

I don't know. I don't think it's especally likely. However, if you read KOC's posts, that was exactally the theory he was trying to test.

As if any outcome would have been different if I didn’t say blue and Mort gave his claim beforehand. WOULD anything be different had that been the case??? NO.

What if you didn't say help him out with his claim and Mort said the wrong color?

Or what if we got the other tracker to claim first (not necessarally today), and he claimed the wrong color?

Either one of those would have have got us a scum. Or, if one of them had claimed and had gotten it right, that would have at least been useful information that would have helped us figure out their alignment; not conclusive, of course, but useful nonetheless (there were 2 colors left, and it wasn't at all clear from flavor which one would be the tracker, so it would have been tricky to guess it if a scum was making a fake claim). Instead, your role speculation prevented anything usfrom happening.

I don't necessarally think this is a huge scum tell from you, by the way; it could have been an honest mistake. But the fact that you're not even admitting you made a mistake here is definatly giving bad vibes.

I’ve been so town this game it hurts.

:eyebrow:

I’ve been so town this game it hurts.

[/quote]

Lol. So, you're going to stick with the same "I'm town" defense MOS was just using, huh?

[Yosarian2]

Because the intelligence level of an infant could of deduced which color to say. I didn’t even think twice about it or realize it was a trap because it was so moronic.

Um...THERE WERE TWO COLORS LEFT. How could anyone "with the intellegence level of an infant" have figure out if the tracker role would be blue or grey, or perhaps something else like Amyrilian Seat, based on the information we had? Explain this to me, please. You seem to have arrived at the conclusion just by forgetting about an entire color...

-Other tracker claimed wrong color?? Doesn’t work if Mort already claimed, as I suggested if I didn’t say Blue and only Mort did.

Well, duh.

The point is, if either Mort OR the other Blue had claimed without your speculation coming first, we would have gotten some kind of information.

MoS KNEW HIS AJAH before hand anyways. So there was no lying to be done…. Do you believe both to be scum?

I don't know. I don't think it's especally likely.

Hey guys Yos is scum.

Excsue me?

I just said I DON'T really think they're scum together. However, that was what "the trap" was trying to test for, and I certanly don't know something like that for certain.

Are you really this dense, benmage, or am I missing something? Are you suggesting that MOS and Moratrium ARE scum together, if you're attacking me for saying that I don't think it's that likely?

I don’t know how the scum PM’s work YoS. But I was told my partners Ajah in my role PM.

Right, I said that ages ago, Benmage. So if Moretoriam lies about his Ajah and MOS backs him up, we know they're scum together. Which is what Knight was trying to figure out.

Again, just because *I* don't think it's all that likely, I wouldn't try to sabatauge someone else's attempt to gather information and check their suspicions.

[Yosarian2]

I'm going to have to agree with Benmage. That was a horrible trap. Now if the other person who was going to claim blue is Black Ajah, they will just say they are a tracker. What if not every pairing has been as forthcoming to each other as we have? Moratorium told me he was Blue Ajah at the very start of the game, there was no way he was going to be able to change his claim just because you put him on the spot.

[/quote]

What are you talking about? How is agreeing with Benmage that KoC was being stupid have ANY equivocation with defending Benmage's resolution to the situation? I was very clear what I wanted done regarding the color claiming, and what Benmage did completely fucked that up. In no way did I defend his actions, and frankly I'm astounded that you could possibly come to that conclusion. You're better than that, Yos.[/quote]

Um...you completly dismissed the attack againt Benmage there, and agreed with him that it was a terrible trap. And, yes, it was a pretty bad trap. But that post is a defense of Benmage's actions.

Then, you called him an "idiot", but implied that it had nothing to do with his alignment.

:Headdesk:

Good job, benmage. Now we get no information from Mort's claim, and we get no infromation if another blue claims. The whole idea was to test Mort's claim by asking him what color he was, or else to test the hypothetical other blue's claim by getting that guy to claim first; either way we might have gotten something. So why would you speculate on what color he was first rather then see that?

*Stare* it was the worst trap ever...geeze

No, we should have had the other Blue claim before revealing Moratorium's color. It was idiocy to do otherwise. But then, that's par for the course for you, isn't it?

It's subtle, but that post kind of looks like a "Benmage is just being an idiot, don't mind him" defense of benmage's alignment to me.

I didn't really have a problem with you defending benmage, MOS, but I find it odd you're now denying it.

Frankly, I couldn't give a crap about Benmage right then or now. No one was really trying to get him lynched, so why should I have been trying to defend him? Maybe you should read my post for what it was: an insult to Benmage's intelligence. He pulled something stupid that made absolutely no sense, and yet he actually believe it was the right thing to do. This isn't the first time during this game, either. Hence the "par for the course" comment. You're really reaching to try and say that was a defense of Benmage. If you read my post and come up with that, maybe it's because that's your subconscious feels about it. It's a rather telling conclusion on your part, to say the least.

A telling conclusion on my part?

You seem to have arrived at the conclusion that Benmage's actions were due to stupidity, rather then scumminess, and that that is consistant with his normal behavior. Again, I don't disagree with you, I was just pointing out that that is, in fact, a defense of Benmage. I don't have any problem with you defending Benmage in this way, declaring his actions to be stupidity rather then scumminess, because you may very well be right. But I'm confused why you're denying that it was a (weak) defense of him.

I want everyone's opinion on Sajin vs Setael in their next post.

I'll do mine now. I think Sajin is likely scum. I don't like the way he called out Setael, and I've been very adamant throughout this that Setael looked pretty protown. I think the way he was set up for a deadline lynch is really scummy, and I think we should be looking hard at those who put him there, especially Sajin. I believe Sajin successfully confused Setael as to their roles, but I do not believe that Setael's conclusion of naivety or that both of them could have similar yet slightly different abilities is legitimate. As far as I can tell, my ajah-specific ability is exactly the same as the other person of my ajah. This also seems to be the case for the Reds, and I'm sure now that Benmage and KoC helped fuck it up, whoever else is "Blue" will claim the same ability as Moratorium. Regardless, I'm betting it was the same for the Browns as well. That means Sajin was scum who lied about parts of his ability in order to get Setael lynched, because it successfully derailed the other discussions that were going on at that point. Had Sajin said nothing, JVW would have died yesterday. I think that's another telling situation.

Hmm. When did Sajin claim that his ability was different from Setael's?

[Yosarian2]

Sajin claimed that the mod sent him results by PM. Setael very clearly stated that the only results he knew were the ones posted in thread. He didn't actually know which of the notes were his, because the mod didn't PM him the results privately.

(rereads) Ah, ok, I see it now.

Ok, so these are the things we know about Sajin and Setael.

1. Setael clamed that the results were posted only in thread. Sajin claimed the results were both posted in thread and PM'd to him.

That does seem odd. I'm not really sure what it means. If Sajin is black ajah with the same ability that the Setael had, wouldn't it work the same way? I'm not sure why he would lie about it. Or perhaps he's not actually brown ajah at all, and was just some scum role that could post fake notes?

Who was Sajin's Aes Sedi partner, again? Could you please confirm that Sajin is brown ajah? (Sorry if you already did this; this thread is so huge, I'm having trouble finding things in it.)

I guess it's also possible he just screwed up his claim, although if so, he should have admitted it long ago, if he was town.

2. On the one night they targeted the same place, they got different results.

This is interesting. It implies that either one of them had sanity issues, or that one of them was scum posting fake notes, or, like Setael speculated, that it got screwed up if they both targetd the same place.

3. This is just me, but it seems like town got a huge amount of role-based information this game, between trackers, and detection of the one power, and partners, and aes sedi colors, ect. Two cops of that type would probably be broken, if they were both sane and both town.

So, yeah, the suspicion on Sajin makes sense to me. Either his role and Setael's role were slightly different (possibly due to sanity, or something), or else he could be lying about his role completly, or else he could be a scum black aes sedi with that role (although that third one dosn't really explain the discrepencies either). Honestly, I'm a little reluctent to lynch another claimed cop today, but the whole thing does not quite seem to add up.

[Yosarian2]

Right, plus we had two notes the same night at one point, and they said different things. It's clear we had two different note makers, and that Saijin was one of them.

What we don't know is A. If he's actually a brown ajah cop, or is just some scum making fake notes; if B. he is sane or not (one of them apparently was not), and C. If he is a brown ajah cop with the ability he claims, it's always possible he's black ajah scum anyway.

[Yosarian2]

Can we have two of the reds or two of the yellows or whatever compare role info to see if they're identical?

Could do this for example by having each paraphrase one of their abilities, then the other confirming.

Well, since I've basically already given all this information in thread, I guess there's no harm in a complete list and explination of all my abilities.

I have the following general Aes Sedi abilities: I can detect Saidaar, gentle, still, and contact my partner. I also have the red ajah ability where I can shield one player during twilight, which will prevent them from using the one power and will stop them from doing any action while they are shielded; it is explained that this is basically a roleblock.

Problems with this that occur to me offhand:

1. The other red ajah is charter, and I kind of think he's likely to be scum, so I'm not too confident about how well this is going to work.

2. The mod may have felt it necessary to break symatry as far as cop roles go, if two sane cops would have been overpowering to the setup; even if all the other roles are symetrical, the cop roles may not be.

Still, I'd be interested to hear if Charter's role is any different.

[Yosarian2]

You still fail to acknowledge that MoS knew the color beforehand. Are you suggesting that they are both scum? Do you believe them both to be scum? Yes or no.

For the love of Christ, Benmage, I've just answered this question twice. Are you reading any of my posts?

I just said I DON'T really think they're scum together. However, that was what "the trap" was trying to test for, and I certanly don't know something like that for certain.

For the record, it would have given us much more information if the other blue had claimed first, and that was what you really screwed up. Also, we would have gotten some information if someone had claimed grey and not claimed tracker as well, but you screwed that up too. Basically, you guessing that blues were trackers was the worst possible outcome of that, information wise.

Everyone in the game has told you you made a bad play there, benmage. Why are you fighting me so hard on this, when I wasn't even attacking you over it?

[Yosarian2]

vote: Yosarian2

You got any specific reason for voting me, or are you just scum trying to get your vote in now so it dosn't look like OMGUS later?

[Yosarian2]

Fine. Just to bullet. You agree it was testing an issue you didn't even believe to be true. Using a trap you agree was a poor setup. That said I blundered "rushing-headlong" and posting early.

Knight was trying to test an issue I don't believe is likely to be true, but would still be good to know.

MOS was trying to get information about someone else's alignment.

You prevented either plan from getting any information; if you didn't like the trap, you could have just supported MOS's plan instead.

Also, you speculated about pro-town roles in a closed game, which is always a bad thing to do and often a scumtell, even without the whole "trap" setup.

[Yosarian2]

I have yet to see anyone articulate the point of my claiming a color...

Agreed, actually.

after they do that, I will claim my Ajah status alongside my own revelations.

...really? Why?

[Yosarian2]

vote: Yosarian2

You got any specific reason for voting me, or are you just scum trying to get your vote in now so it dosn't look like OMGUS later?

Same reason as Day 5.

You're going to make us hunt...to find the reason you're voting me? that dosn't make any sense at all; if you think I'm scum, why wouldn't you want everyone to know why you think that?

Anyway, I looked at the post where you voted me on day 5, and there weren't any reasons in that post either.

I got a PM from the mod stating that for that day's twilight resolution, I was (paraphrase) actively stopped from doing whatever it was I wanted to do that night. The notion that I was roleblocked was, I found, strongly implied, but not explicitly so.

unvote

vote: Yosarian2

Something about you being roleblocked, which we already know, Albert claimed to have done, and that's it.

So you gave no reason for voting me yesterday, not at any point yesteday as far as I can tell, and today you're voting me for "the same reason", even though you just confirmed that I am telling the truth and did role block you last night, is that all correct?

[Yosarian2]

Did you roleblock ABR on the night he claimed to roleblock me?

Yes.

This has already been cleared up by the mod himself.

Everything in this game takes place in phases. Most twilight actions take place at the same time. In other words, one twilight roleblocekr, like me, can not block another twilight roleblocker. If I roleblocked ABR and he roleblocked you, his roleblock would go through.

We cleared all of this up yesterday, first when I asked the mod about it by PM, and then when the mod confirmed what I was saying in thread.
Why is it you haven't been reading the thread, Moratorium?

[Yosarian2]

Interesting. So, what did the bond do, exactally? Are you neighbors or masons or something with benmage now, or what?

(Also, we obviously know that proof of ability is not and never can be proof of alignment in this game, ect ect.)

[Yosarian2]

Note I am not saying anything about if I did or did not get super powers from this.

Lol. Ok, never mind, if you don't want to discuss it then you don't have to.

[Yosarian2]

Excuse me?

Of course I'm bound by the oath rod.

Are you claiming an investigative role here, TSS?

[Yosarian2]

Not precisely. I am claiming possession of mod info, though. And that info is that Yosarian is not bound by the Oath Rod.

You might want to be more specific. And it would certanly be better for you if you were more specific now, instead of after I die and come up aes sedi.

I certanly am bound by the three oaths. I even proved earlier that they were in my role PM by certain comments I made about them that demonstrated inside knowlege.

[Yosarian2]

Here, found it.

Anyway, now that I'm claimed...one thing that disturbes me is that there actaully is a line in the Aes Sedi role PM, I'm not going to quote it directly right here, but it basically says that you aren't allowed to state that you know someone is scum if you don't know that or else you're breaking the first oath' all of you Aes Sedi know what I'm talking about. Didn't Albert quite specifically do that?

Anyone with a real Aes Sedi role PM should know exactally what I'm talking about here, and should know that I am, in fact, bound to the three oaths in my role PM. I have no idea what TSS is talking about, but he'd better explain himself, fast.

[Yosarian2]

Weak sauce. Given book flavor, I would fully expect a Black Ajah to know what the Oaths are, as they are generally bound by, and subsequently released from, them.

This has nothing to do with "book flavor", MacavityLock. There was one, very specific line in the Aes Sedi role PM about the first oath that I was referencing, coming as close as I could to quoting it without getting modkilled for quoting. If you are truly an Aes Sedi, you should know what I am talking about.

[Yosarian2]

I'm pretty sure those fall under opinions, so they aren't lies.

Armlx, there was one very specific part of the role PM I am talking about. One specific line, in talking about the first oath, where it quite specifically says that you can't say you know someone is scum if you don't. Again, just go back and read your role PM, and then read what I typed up there, right after I first claimed Aes Sedi. It should be clear to any pro-town Aes Sedi that I have the same three oaths as everyone else does.

[Yosarian2]

Further, like I kept saying but got distracted by- your behavior regarding flay hath always been suspect.

You mean, when I caught a scum the moment i replaced into the game, because I'm just that aweseome? That was "suspect"?

[Yosarian2]

Because noone has access to the mini...oh wait.

Why, were the oaths the same in the mini?

[Yosarian2]

Actually, if some enterprising lad wishes to review the game before I get back, feel free and look at the caveat protective languageYos was so free with during the flay times.

:eyebrow:

Caveat protective language?

It's no lie to say that I was already frustrated with the roleclaims at that point in the game.

Actually, no; as of your post 57, when you initially outed SK as a Aes Sedi, no one had claimed at all. SO your post clearly wasn't because you were "frustrated with roleclaims".

And it's no lie to say that I wasn't SK's partner-mason, so while he was giving off 'Aes Sedai tells' it wasn't like I literally thought he was one.

Why not? He did look like an Aes Sedai, based on how he was talking about this. You even explained this yourself:

To more directly answer your question, I think Shadow Knight is making the huge assumption that Aes Sedai would be our ONLY power role. The easy assumption from that is that he has or knows specifically about that role, and thus is tunneled on it.

You had very good reasons for thinking Shadow Knight was an Aes Sedi, and you were right about them. What I don't at all get is why you felt the need to bring it up on page 3, right after the start of day 1. At the very least it seems anti-town to me to out a pro-town role the way you did there.

I totally nailed him to a wall there.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, i don't understand you even complaining here. If you die and are town we'll kill TSS an obvious scum if you’re innocent. The only conclusion is your scum trying to fight to stay alive....not gonna happen.

Well, I'd rather have TSS actually explain himself, so we can figure out if he's lying scum or if it's another stupid confusion about the overly complicated setup.

Also, your logic is terrible here anyway. If "eitehr me or TSS is scum", as you claim, then obviously as a pro-town person I should be trying to get TSS lynched, since that would both get rid of a scum AND confirm me as innocent.

Now, I'm not positive of that yet, since TSS has yet to actually explain himself. BUt "a townie should just give up and get lynched here" is terrible advice.

[Yosarian2]

You are unsure if the statement is a lie Yos. Seriously, if the mod were to punish people for that, either A) he would have to universally punish every AS who said "X is scum", which may include punishing the truth or B) we could break the game with what are more or less free cop investigations ("X is scum", oh, I haven't been punished, he is, kill him).

...if you have an Aes Sedi role PM, armlx, you should see that what I was was almost a driect quote from the role PM. I'm not making anything up here.

I'm currently just using this to demonstrate that I do, in fact, have a pro-town Aes Sedi role PM with the three oaths in it.

[Yosarian2]

Bah. I just got a mod warning for coming to close to quoting my role PM. I guess I'm done with this topic.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, since he's completly refusing to explain himself here,

Vote:The Silent Speaker

until he does explain this vauge "mod information" he's talking about that apparently dosn't come from an investigative role.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, since he's completly refusing to explain himself here,

Vote:The Silent Speaker

until he does explain this vauge "mod information" he's talking about that apparently dosn't come from an investigative role.

Could you actually misrepresent his posts more?

He's refused to explain himself. He claimed he had "mod information" of some kind, he denied he had an information role, that's all he's said.

You lynch me and I come up town, do you have enough information yet to know if he's lying scum?

[Yosarian2]

Mhm.
Yosarian - full claim. Now. If you don't, I can think of no reason why other than you're scum with nowhere to go.

Eh? I full claimed quite a long time ago.

[Yosarian2]

Mhm.
Yosarian - full claim. Now. If you don't, I can think of no reason why other than you're scum with nowhere to go.

Eh? I full claimed quite a long time ago.

Should have made that clearer - claim your location, your target, and all detections. Apologies.

No, we're not claiming location or detections yet, KOC. We're claiming targets first, and will only claim location and detections afterwards.

Anyway, I role-blocked MOS last night.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, I role-blocked MOS last night.

Bzzt, wrong answer.

Vote Yosarian

I know for a fact Yosarian is lying about his target.

Excuse me?

What the hell are you talking about? I roleblocked MOS last night. I'm sure once we get the detections, that'll prove it.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. Interesting. charter claims to have targetted Yos2, and Yos2 was tracked to tss. Given that there are no other roleblockers as far as we know, that means both charter and Yos2 are lying scum.

First of all, that's not how it works, we've already established this.

Secondly, and more importantly, if anyone is lying scum here, it's goatsrevolt.

Vote:Goatrevolt

[Yosarian2]

Er, wait. Yos claims he targeted the dead guy but he actually targeted tss and Goat and tss kinda confirm that. Ok, it's weird that Yos would lie and say he targeted the guy who died, but meh.

I don't know what's going on. Perhaps goat's scumbuddy roleblocked TSS and then told him about it. It's also possible goat and tss are scum together. All I know is that I targeted MOS last night.

[Yosarian2]

Still need Yos + TSS to location claim.

Your mom.

...

I was at the blacksmith last night. Hopefully detections will give us enough information to prove you to be lying scum here, goat.

[Yosarian2]

I detected one to the River
One to the barn
One to the Blacksmith
One from the Blacksmith
One from the Windmill

[Yosarian2]

For the most part, the detection ability that nearly every player had was borderline useless.

Not at all. For one thing, it made it impossible for the scum to lie about where they were. And there was a town role that could catch you if you told the truth about where you were. It also forced all black aes sedi to claim aes sedi, and there was a town role (that we had no way of knowing about ) that could catch you if you claimed aes sedi, so that was basically another cop. Plus it's kind of annoying that basically everyone in the game was an aes sedi, and we had no way of knowing that; it was basically just blind luck that the whole scum team wasn't caught in bad fake clams because of that.

I'm glad we managed to pull out a win, my team mates played really well. I'm especally glad of the way me and my team mates managed to make moretoriom look bad, and the pre-planned bus goat did on me (where he "nailed" me with a tracker claim proving I lied; he actually killed someone else that night who just happened to be in the same locaton I was at) worked well too. Still, even with the double kill, this game was weighed pretty heavily against the scum team; town had more then enough information to figure out almost everything, and by the end game, nearly the entire scum team was already lined up in to be lynched. If anything had gone even slightly wrong at any point, we would have been toast.

[Yosarian2]

For the most part, the detection ability that nearly every player had was borderline useless.

Not at all. For one thing, it made it impossible for the scum to lie about where they were. And there was a town role that could catch you if you told the truth about where you were. It also forced all black aes sedi to claim aes sedi, and there was a town role (that we had no way of knowing about ) that could catch you if you claimed aes sedi, so that was basically another cop. Plus it's kind of annoying that basically everyone in the game was an aes sedi, and we had no way of knowing that; it was basically just blind luck that the whole scum team wasn't caught in bad fake clams because of that.

I'm glad we managed to pull out a win, my team mates played really well. I'm especally glad of the way me and my team mates managed to make moretoriom look bad, and the pre-planned bus goat did on me (where he "nailed" me with a tracker claim proving I lied; he actually killed someone else that night who just happened to be in the same locaton I was at) worked well too. Still, even with the double kill, this game was weighed pretty heavily against the scum team; town had more then enough information to figure out almost everything, and by the end game, nearly the entire scum team was already lined up in to be lynched. If anything had gone even slightly wrong at any point, we would have been toast.

I disagree a bit here Yos.

You're looking at this from the perspective of knowing exactly what was there, and having no fog of war (and indeed, the scum knew a lot more about what was true and what wasn't).

However the town had a much greater Fog of War to deal with. Each of the Black was given the full Color Role PM, your PM was identical to the other player who had your color in the game.

Additionally the amount of Aes Sedai in the game worked toward your favor in many instances, and the nature of your kills (A MidDirected Kill and a Delayed Kill) put even more mis-information in the town's hands.

The amount of "good" information that town had to deal with was very small (really, the only "cop" in the game was TSS, Seteal and Sajin were supposed to duel with information and misinformation all game, and Sajin's worst case scenario was throwing misinformation on a location Seteal did a true information gathering on). And even TSS's role was intended to be not a "true" cop, as there were about 10 roles which he got a "Not tied to the Pattern" result which didn't rule them out as town.

Eh; with everyone's location going to be know, setael's ability was actually far more effective then a normal cop in the long run. She could catch scum, confirm lots of townies, or both at the same time, her claim was going to be mod-confimred by the information posted in the thread, and the information was going to be publically avalable even if she died without claiming. Sajin's ability was good for some short-term confusion, but in the long term, it doomed him; he had to claim it, because the detections forced us all to tell the truth, and once he did the town was eventually going to figure it out. Plus, since all scum had to claim aes sedi, TSS's abilily basically was another whole cop, so long as it he only targeted people who claimed aes sedi (which was inevitably going to be almost everyone.)

If we hadn't won RIGHT when we did, and if things hadn't gone JUST right for us all game, we'd have had almost no chance at all, really. Nearly the entire scumgroup had already been caught due to no fault of their own but due to pro-town role information; Goat was the only one who hadn't, and if he kept killing, that was going to be just a matter of time anyway. There were some things that would delay the town from solving the situation, but they were only short term. If the town had had any more chances, any more days, or if a scum had been killed by the SK early on, or if one scum had made one more tiny mistake and gotten lynched a day earlier or anything, scum would have had absolutly no chance at all.

Honestly, the town has so much information, and the scum had almost none. We didn't even know who our scum partners were, which was a bit part of the reason Flay got lynched. We didn't have enough infromation to know what lie or what truth we would randomally get smited for saying.

All that being said, it was a neat game, Kinetic. I do like complicated games, and I'm impressed you managed to keep everything streight with so many different power roles and interactions without any major modding errors; I'm not sure I would have been able to do that on my own, that was some high quality modding there. Also, while it was heavily imbalanced in favor of the town, at least the game wasn't completly broken, which is already an achievement in a game this complicated.

[Yosarian2]

As for lying, I could have been a little more clear on what I expected (and would have punished) for lying, but I was trying to keep it vague because in truth I didn't want it to be a MAJOR part of the game.

Eh, I didn't mean that. I meant that, for example, if we lied about our location, we'd have gotten caught and lynched because of all the detection roles, and we didn't know that at the start of the game. If we lied about having the one power, we'd have gotten lynched, and we didn't know that. If we'd admitted we had the one power but lied about being aes sedi (like that "village wisdom" claim from early in the game), we'd have gotten lynched for flavor reasons once there was a mass claim (since every pro-town role with the one power was aes sedi), and again, we had no way of knowing that. And yet, we could also get lynched for telling the truth about our location (Because of Sajin), or for telling the truth and claiming aes sedi (because of TSS). Basically, there were a lot of little ways we could have screwed ourselves over when it came to claiming, and we didn't have enough information to avoid any of them, except through blind luck.

[Yosarian2]

Ty, it was tough sometimes I'll have to get all the targets out eventually, they're all in spreadsheets.

It was killer keeping them all together and even I missed a detect here and there (which I tried to fix as soon as I found them).

(nods) Yeah; I've never modded a game with night actions anywhere near this complicated, but still I know just how easy it is to make a modding error even in a normal game. The fact that you never made any crucial, game-changing mod errors (like, say, letting a kill go through that should have been role-blocked, or something) is a pretty big accomplishment in a game like this.

[Yosarian2]

This game made me realize I have to quit mafia, which I'm bummed about. Getting speed lynched while V/LA over July 4th weekend after replacing into a game that took me WAY too long to read made me rethink how I'm spending my time. Goodbye forever, scummers!

Sorry to hear that, Setael.

I'm sure that must really suck. 's certanly not how it usually goes, though.

Anyway, I think that has more to do with how people having to be replaced in games, and the effects of that, sucks, rather then mafia itself.

[Yosarian2]

gg scum. By the end I had no suspicions of goat at all.

Yeah, I was pretty happy by how we planned the Goat bussing of me. I was a bit worried MBL might figure it out (after all, there really WAS no good reason for me to lie and say I targeted MOS...), but it was worth trying, since I was dead anyway.