Wheel of Time Mafia: Rip in the Pattern (GAME OVER)

[SpyreX]

I think assuming we're going to have the same setup is the start of a bad flavor argument.

[SpyreX]

Ohh game.

Now, lets get this party started for mad reals. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I win when the scum are killed, not lose when the Aes Sedai are eliminated. Or, really, anything in particular about the Aes Sedai. Now, I know this is revolutionary and all, but let flavor sit back and actually look for scum, mkay.

WITH THAT SAID:

Fabian is so town (retarded town, but town nonetheless) right now it hurts.

I really don't like ABR's play around this whole doctor fiasco - especially the "lynch now so there is no wifom" assuming there isn't isn't a myriad of ways to check it out that dont result in a doctors death VIA lynch ffs.

Macavity is, again, also probably town. Again, we have the classic "this doesn't do any good" but ultimately there is no scum maneuvering there - its not just a question of "how does this help the town" its also "how does this help the scum". When it could fractionally help the town in bizarro world the statement itself doesn't help the scum.

So, for now.

Vote: ABR

[SpyreX]

Fabian, do you know WHO used it or just that it was used?

[SpyreX]

Well, hells bells. Thats pretty worthless.

Just to stop the whole "WHATS GOING ON"...

I used the Saidar.

I am responsible for the secret vote on Fuzzy.

Which will be moved shortly.

I wanted to test Fabian to see if he was telling the truth.. which he kind of is?

[SpyreX]

Ohh, and since I've came out and all.

I'm insane. Crazy as a loon. Totally town, but also coocoopuffs.

For example, my PM changed from what it was to me being an onion whose mission was to kill all the potatoes (I even breadcrumbed it!). I imagine thats going to happen fairly often - although I really don't think it changes my ACTUAL win condition its just there to reaffirm I am nutso.

So, WHO KNOWS whats going to happen to me later. Especially since I'm using the sweet sweet crazy juice.

But, yes, Fabian at least isn't lying about part of his claim.

[SpyreX]

I hope you're not talking to me?

I am 100% telling the truth about my role. Crazy-as-a-loon Saidar wielding secret voter.

Which moved. You'll see in the next vote count.

[SpyreX]

I've always hated those terms. - too damn close.

Let me make it clear: I am a man. Using the man-half. You know, the crazy half.

I have no reason to believe my role will change. It may, but who knows? There's not even an inkling I'm anything like an SK, yet.

[SpyreX]

Which means (for those like me)

Fabian senses the girl-power.?

I used the boy-power.

Either someone else is doin stuff or Fabian isn't reading role correctly / lying.

Which means I should have kept my mouth shut.

[SpyreX]

Sigh.

Not Saidar. Saidin.

The Man-Half. Thats what I am officially calling it from now on.

And I wasn't trying to confirm MYSELF. I was trying to confirm at least a part of his role.

Which, due to ar != in I failed miserably at I think.

[SpyreX]

I want you to be real clear about this.

You are lynching me for being clear with my role because I -may- become a SK because in the -other- game (the one that the mod said this one isn't a mirror of) the same thing happened?

Or.. are you voting for me because you don't believe what I've had to say?

I guess, what I'm getting at: what is my scum motive for any of the admittedly awesome things I've done in trying to check Fabian out?

[SpyreX]

@Fab:

If you can't see how easy it is to mix up Saidar and Saidin... well, hang yourself because you did it too.

So, I got it screwed up.

I was -REALLY- hoping you'd go: "Yep, SpyreX just used the power."

But, instead it was "Someone has used the power" and you said you don't know who (which is fine) but based on what you've said that sure isn't me so...

In essence, letters are hard. Especially when you're crazy.

[SpyreX]

See, that last line threw a whole kink in my bidness. That whole confusing the two thing I've mentioned more than once.

(I also used mine BEFORE you said someone had used it)

As there wasn't any noticable wacky hijinks I assumed, obviously erroneously, that I had been the one you detected.

So, yea. I was wrong. 100%

Outed myself for absolutely nothing (minus clearing up the secret vote which was in the Vote Count).

[SpyreX]

Good lord I'm trying to help you and you're digging a hole for yourself?

Just that it has been used, and I only know that the Saidan half has been used.

[SpyreX]

And yes, you fixed it, but you made the mistake. Don't act like I'm making stuff up ffs.

[SpyreX]

No, I read back, I never mentioned usinf Saidan. Quote it for me.

*facepalm*

Hey, I'm upfront and honest with my crazy. I am not an SK, nor do I have any reason to believe I will become an SK.

However, I am crazy. Thus, it could happen.

So, yea, I wouldn't leave me to lylo.

However, I also wouldn't be ready to lynch me out of the gate either. I'd much rather hit scum and when that golden time comes where we've got a window to nab my crazy ass go for it.

Or, hell, who knows. Maybe I can get some help down the road and lose my sweet sweet doublevote.

[SpyreX]

Well, I'll leave the insanity business aside. Believe it or not I

do

understand the idea of a policy lynch before I go totally wacknuts crazy. I'd just prefer to get a real wagon going and start parsing real information instead of a wagon that scum salivate over.

I guess one other positive is that if I AM the lynch then it does protect other roles from coming out on a lynch wagon which, in turn, does help protect the doctor and give them a chance to find their channeler.

Although, of the votes coming my way:
I dig: Faraday, Shadow Knight, Flay
I'm concerned about: Fabian
I'm bothered by: Sajin, Moratorium

Please explain more thoroughly why you think ABR's specific behaviors (voting a claimed doctor, lobbying for it, then unvoting and stating belief in the claim) are scum behaviors. What do you think ABR was trying to accomplish?

If you have since changed your mind on the matter, what do you think of the three people that jumped onto the ABR bandwagon with you?

You have a very poor claim early on. With a role that has multiple abilities. That came out from a player who for all intents and purposes panicked.

That's a mighty fine scum target. Notice that ABR doesn't focus on how the player is scum, but instead of how lynching him regardless of role is going to be a benefit long-run (eliminating the WIFOM, you've made yourself useless, etc, etc).

And, when it becomes apparent there isn't going to be traction... that vote changes to "I just voted to show how stupid you are."

So, yes, I like my vote(s) as they sit now.

[SpyreX]

If I am the insane one, why is it that it appears that only I can hold memories of the past in my twisted visage?

My vote is to add emphasis on the stupidity of the claim

. After some thought and after I got to see a reaction to my vote, I unvoted because I don't want to lynch a claimed doctor day 1.

By using his abilities this early in the game, Spyrex fully intends to turn into a SK and kill us all. Lynch him.

Really? Really?

Ok, lets assume I thought this role was definitively going to turn me into an SK. Lets also assume its due to my using it which expedites this process.

What, as an SK, is going to give me more of an edge?

1.) Using my power multiple times day 1 until I am actually an SK and get whatever shiny SK powers I might have (which, as will be seen, I can do).
2.) Telling the town my role day 1 and...hoping? That I am never, ever lynched or NK'd considering how my role will and can be pushed by scum and town alike. I mean, really.

I'm -hoping- that the majority of the votes on me at least are under the impression that, through no active efforts on my own part, I'd become an SK and thus need to be eliminated.

Not that I'm actively going to pursue a goal by doing a set of events that make it neigh impossible. That's just silly.

[SpyreX]

Yes, I messed up. Lets assume I didn't though - that Fabian detected Man-Power and I used mine to check him out and confirmed it.

Still, what gain does that give me as an SK or hell even scum?

[SpyreX]

And if that were the case why would I directly clarify that I use the man-half AND say I am insane?

Why, this early, would I put myself in the spotlight at ALL to look pro-town in trying to divine if an outed role was telling the truth considering that'd be putting a target on my own head for scum even if I succeeded?

[SpyreX]

Alas, I am undone. My cruel machinations, my elaborate schemes, all destroyed by the piercing arrow of "effing dumb".

My mistake, no matter how you cut it, has no actual motive for scum much less for an SK.

Nor am I pleading "Please let me live I'll never, ever use my powers again" because, well, that'd be a lie and easily setup for scum machinations.

I will die. I have to die. There is no way I can live to lylo. That as a given, changing my win condition from possible to do to impossible due to my own actions is more than just "effing dumb" - it makes absolutely no sense.

And that's what you are holding on to. That I am actively playing against my win condition.

My questions have meaning - when looked at with more than a cursory glance, they in and of themselves put it in perspective. Yet, they are pish-poshed aside.

If Shadow Knight is scum, he's doing a good job of it at this point. I dig the thought process.

[SpyreX]

This, to me, sounds like it comes from a role PM, and that SpyreX knows, or at least guesses, that he will become an SK, and this is a huge double bluff. I think this is almsot directly from his role PM because in the Wheel of Time novels, it is clearly stated multiple times up until the Cleansing of the Taint that the process of going mad as a saidin user is time-dependent, not dependent on the amount of times the role is used - Rand regularly uses saidin before the Cleansing, implying that the insanity is a process neither sped up or abated by the use of saidin. This suggests to me that Kinetic has included this quirk in the role PM in order to give SpyreX a certain leverage as to when he becomes an SK/whatever when he goes insane. Therefore, I shall unvote; Vote SpyreX because the danger of having a male channeller who will inevitably go mad and do some damage to the town is far too great, especially given the current information on his current abilities, which do not strike me as greatly townie in any way.

Sigh, KoC you know better than this. You are definitely on my "after I die and am town I would -really- like you to look at this person".

I am insane. If I even reasonably guessed that I would become an SK, playing this way makes absolutely no sense.

Being honest about my role shouldn't be an indictment of some huge double-bluff if I am to become a role that wins by killing everyone (which, AGAIN, my doing this would make no sense to.)

Not to mention the flavor/anti-flavor of "Male channellers go insane and thus make sense for an SK / it is Time-dependent not dependent on number of times the role is used" which amounts to I believe you/I dont believe you.

And you have said that a doublevoter is not a town role - who does it make sense for? Scum is overpowered. SK -could- make sense... but not when they actively out themselves day 1.

That you aren't competent enough to play to your future win condition.

Did I know I was going to be an SK for sure? Then, again, you're saying its just a base of incompetence that lead to this which, as this day continues, will make less and less sense.

Now, if I didn't. Then, again, you're pushing for the lynched based on "he could be a huge threat" which although potentially valid loses a lot of steam when, after my lynch, things come up the way they do.

Just because he's in bed with you doesn't mean he's scum. He might be a townie thinking that I'm scum, and wants to keep you alive to kill me because he thinks it will be harder to convince people that I am scum if you're gone.

... I said pretty much that I do not think he is scum at all. Twice. He feels genuine through and through and is looking at this from the view of "We need to find SCUM." not "We better eliminate possibly potential threats that, really, have no chance of winning."

Hence, if he is scum, he's doing a damn good job.

@Sera:

I dub thee my scion after I'm lynched. Do NOT let KoC / ABR get away with this dance. Like I've said that is just being slid under the rug - I am the type of day 1 lynch scum salivate over and can't help but at least have a few bite into.

[SpyreX]

Yeah, ninja'd but SpyreX, I'm not saying "I believe you/I don't believe you" at all, I'm saying I believe you're going to go insane, and I think your "use power X times then go crazy" thing you've talked about is also true, because it deviates slightly from the theme whilst still being coherent enough to make sense as both thematic and a game mechanic.

If you believe this then it makes no sense to vote for me because inherent in this is the fact that I would define my own alignment.

As we have determined, it makes no, no sense for me to after outing myself utilize an alignment change from "can win" to "no way in hell going to win"

So, in short form:

1.) I can not live to lylo. No way in hell.
2.) I am, by nature, a threat

only if I decide

to be.
--- After outing myself this is tantamount to losing.
3.) Looking for scum at -this- juncture versus giving scum a lynch they can jump on without many issues is going to set a better tone.
--- I'd push mos def for ABR.

However, with the "sky is falling" mentality I totally expect to be lynched today. I will flip town. Heed this.

[SpyreX]

@Issac:

Right idea, wrong execution.

I am town. I will be scumhunting. However, I am not stupid enough to bank on going crazy AND then getting gentled.

Keep me alive, I'm vanilla. I'm not using my power. I'm not going to risk a scenario where I end up dead as an SK and lose.

As for honesty: that goes without saying. I get gentled, yea I'll say. I start spawning new powers, sure I will. However, I am still a voice and not a tool of some democracy.

As for KoC, look at what I said about ABR. His reactions to both Fabian and myself ooze scum-motivation.

[SpyreX]

Although your assessment is fine, the fact you said nothing, nothing at all that hadn't already been said is worrisome.

Not as much as ABR though.

[SpyreX]

No, not all male channelers are darkfriends. But ALL insane people are dangerous. There's no reason to think that Kinetic kept the male channeler role PM secret in the mini for his own personal amusement.

I actually like SpyreX for a Jester at this point. It's the only thing that makes sense with the pointless claim, and I'm willing to grant him peace. Unvote, Vote: SpyreX

If you actually thought I was a jester, why would you...vote for me?

[quote"Mr TheFlay"]How do you propose to determine when he turns SK?!? Sajin already explained why extra kills is a red herring. Do you propose to check him every night? What if he gains investigation immunity? What, exactly, is your 'plan' here regarding SpyreX?!? [/quote]

I think its pretty clear I'm not making it to end game. Which, by nature, means I do NOT want to change my alignment from town. In fact, I need to be lord of the scumhunters. Because the only way I have a chance to be alive at the end of the game is to constantly hit scum.

SpyreX, did you receive your random screwed up insane PMs after you used Saidin to try and confirm me, (useless as it was because of the mix up with Saidan and Saidar)?
I think most of us are all already decided that you will go insane at some point, but there is no reason no to check small details like that just to be certain.

Before. Not by much, but before. I am tainted regardless and crazy. I just become crazier I think if I use the power.

[SpyreX]

@Fuzzy:

My vote, and secret vote, are both on ABR. As you can see in the last votecount. Making it go away after I've used it is silly.

* Who do you suspect to be evil channelers based on their reactions to your claim?
* Is your current plan to personally kill someone every night?

1.) The same as all scum? Push for my lynch hard because, hell, I am a free lynch that they can get on without too much issue.
2.) ... I can't kill anyone. So, as sweet as that would be to vig it up, nope. I'll be chillaxin' all night doing nothing.

[SpyreX]

I have not claimed SK. That would be retarded.

I have claimed exactly what I am: a town, crazy doublevoter who when doublevotes gets crazier.

Does this mean if I keep doublevoting all willy nilly that I COULD become an SK / Birdman / The Bringer of Death / a goat? Sure.

Is this definitive? No. It could be anything. I could explode and die. I could just get new powers.

So, there is more than a likely chance I will eventually need to be put down. Do NOT confuse this with "Ohh god he claimed SK".

Because, not only is that wrong, that is -exactly- what I expect scum to do to push my wagon.

[SpyreX]

Just so we're clear:

"Why would we lynch someone who is town?" <- Mega town response
"We need to gentle him asap." <- Very town response
"He's a jester! VOTE!" <- Does not compute
"He's going to become an SK" <- See where my votes are.
"He claimed SK!" <- If I had more votes... if only. Vigs are good here.

[SpyreX]

Because with Jesters, you remove the distraction as soon as possible. Even if they win individually, they don't prohibit anyone else from winning once they're gone from the game.

Yes, you

remove

the distraction. By vigging it, ignoring it or anything else. I don't play for second nor do I expect most people do. Which, if you actually believed what you were saying, you would be doing.

Which is impossible. Not only does practically no one "constantly" hit scum, but you cannot reliably claim credit for it every time. I'm not being snotty at you, nobody can do that, even Pooky or Glrok. It's a team effort for killing scum. So how do we determine that you are "lord of the scumhunters", again?

By being open and upfront and building actual cases that hit scum. By showing I have no ulterior machinations. The only way I could be alive would be to kill scum until the game ends before I become the inevitable lynch.

Which means: if I was actually an SK now OR planning to actively become an SK I would have put myself in a scenario where winning is all but impossible.

You already know my opinion on the first, but yes, if we don't lynch him, I suppose we should try to gentle him. Then someone can explain to me how we've confirmed that that worked (by the way, I fully expect gentled characters to have a shorter lifespan, so he's unlikely to last to endgame anyway).

Which is fine. If I come out and say I'm gentled and thats a lie it WILL be found out and I WOULD hang for it. So, again, I've put myself in a position of if I am not town I can not win.

I think that if he can be gentled, he should be gentled. He has already said that he shouldn't make it to the end game, which lends credence to Flay's argument that he could be a jester type role. If he is a Jester, I think he should just come forward and admit it and we can lynch him and get it over with.

I am not a jester. Although, it'd be an amazing play if I was - I'll freely admit.

I'm still waiting for a real rebut on these statements:

1.) What I have done today absolutely makes no sense if I am an SK.
2.) What I have done today makes -very- little sense if I am scum.
3.) What I have done today DOES make sense if I am exactly what I say I am and tried to confirm another town role but screwed it up because ar != in.

Can someone correct me if I am wrong: Shadowvoting is not double voting is it? In the mini I think it allowed a vote to be placed on someone other than who you actually voted. I do not think it allowed for a 2nd vote to actually be cast, only appear to be cast.

It is a 2nd vote. It can be on the same person, or I can put it on someone else. As far as I can tell, they DO count normally.

Could I be any more plain: I think SpyreX is a male Channeler who wants to be lynched because of his insanity. In other words, a Jester! I've not said word one about disbelieving him for being a male channeler, stop putting words in my mouth.

I am a Male channeler who

has

to be lynched (or gentled/whatever) before end game because of my insanity. I don't want to be lynched. However, it makes very little sense for me to be alive at end game (minus an AS that is known as town saying they know for sure I am gentled + an investigation that knows I'm town which is an absolute waste of town resources).

Why the hell do you guys assume there is a vig?

And even if there was an Aes Sedein with a vig, they would in all likelihood have other abilities such as tracking or investigating. A good course of action is to lynch the claimed SK.

Again. Show me where I said "OHH HAY I AM SK." or even where I said "Ohh hay I will become an SK for sure." That conjecture didn't come from me because all I know is what I've said. It's a -fairly- logical route but that assumation != I claimed SK ffs.

Please, more votes here. Kthx.

(Also, I'm pretty sure I never, ever said I was an AS or anything like it. Because I'm not. I'm really not sure where you got that from).

I want to ask, are we really saying the most likely scenario is that Kinetic is going to make the male channeler into an ultra-super-pwnage SK who can neither be killed, investigated, gentled, or looked at funny?

Come on, this is all screaming a hard push at an easy mislynch.

Now, yes, a male channeler should be a figure of caution, even considered a potential threat. But we are not quicklynching someone who is currently town.

In the mini, the scum pushed for a quick VanDamien lynch...why? Because it HURT the town!!!

So, at this point, I think Albert is looking worse than Flay. I don't understand why Flay thinks that male channeler also = jester, but at least that confusion explains his actions. ABR however seems to understand the role the same way as most of us but is pushing hard (HARD!) for a lynch. That rubs me the wrong way.

You forgot that with all these powers outs himself the first day in a maneuver that really doesn't do any good if the win condition is anything but town.

[SpyreX]

There's a lot of information I'm finding. Like, see, I'm more and more confident about Issac and SK being town with each post. Bravo!

In my extensive experience, removing a confirmed future SK is equally important to *trying* to lynch mafia. If we lynch Spyrex we KNOW it won't be a mislynch.

It will also give our power roles a chance at tracking/watching/investigating for a night WITHOUT BEING OUTED DAY 1.

Sup giant appeal to authority. How are you doing today?

Now, I'm really not sure how you can even pretend that you KNOW this wont be a mislynch. See, I think we all know that you hang me I turn up town. Woosh. That'd be a mislynch right there.

So, if again you are making the claim that you know 100% I am going to become an SK (which, I who hath the PM does not know) then you have some mysterious insight into the setup that, frankly, doesn't exist.

As for the latter half: are you insinuating that a lynch of me without other exploratory lynches (considering the caveat that I am town for sure right now that could change) is better than actually lynch scum because whomever we lynch is going to a.) be a power role and b.) not be scum?

Really? Lets play the slippery slope with that logic: Day 1 should be a no lynch because then we don't out any power roles. How's that sound?

Real bad, right? Because it is. At least you only brought it up once right OHH SNAAAaaaa

Because you're going to go after random players, they will be forced to claim, and they're going to be outed before they even get any investigation results in. Then you're not gonna learn from your lesson, so you're going to go after another player, and you will out a second power role. You're just playing into the scum's hands.

Wow, there it is again. This means the first time you brought it up it wasn't a mistake. As for "random" lynching - no, its not random, far from it. Hell, this lynch is

less

random than most day 1 lynches.

I want this clear. One line for people to read before they lynch you because holy hell:

ABR has, twice, now said that I am a better lynch than looking for actual scum because there is a chance of outing power roles. In no game does this make sense.

Lynching Spyrex means investigative roles get information.

How does this work? You really think a myriad of investigative roles are gonig to converge on me? I really doubt it.

Cops and the like sure shouldn't waste their time because the caveat is that "IN THE SECRETE FUTURE" I may become an SK.

Watchers shouldn't because I am NOT going to get killed tonight. No way in hell.

Tracker...ehh, sure. All it would prove is that I didn't go anywhere which leads us right back into "Well, yea he's town now but we better watch him like a hawk MUHAHAH."

Protective roles most DEFINITELY shouldn't be anywhere near me. See above, in I'm not going to get killed period.

So, the only "PR" I could see really having a vested interest in visiting me would be a vig to nip this in the bud / make sure if I was a jester I didn't win.

Which still serves your purpose without wasting the actual important part of the game - the lynch.

So, lets get this party started.

[SpyreX]

Ohh yea and I'm not jumping ship if "magic secret power role" claim comes up from ABR after that mess.

It is known.

[SpyreX]

Awesome. Just..awesome.

Although I do have some srs questions:

1.) You are in a pair. If so, is your partner also Red Ajah or is it a mesh.

(OMG ROLEFISHING) Yes there is a reason for this question.

2.) Is there any flavor reason why gentling is not guaranteed to work but stilling is (in your PM, not in the damn series).

2.a.) Additionally, is there any reason why gentling requires THREE (more than a mason pairing) versus stilling which could be done by a pair.

3.) Is your detection the same method as Fabian - where you know its been used, but not who used it.

3.a) If so, did you also detect someone when Fabain did?

[SpyreX]

.... Kairyuu:

Part of being Black Ajah would be circumnavigating said oaths. Assuming that there is no Black Ajah is a very bad call.

Depending on if ABR actually answers my questions it may be a fundamentally bad, bad call.

That is a very bad logical conclusion.

[SpyreX]

I swear to god you're playing this far more like a lyncher than ANY kind of town power role.

[SpyreX]

@Kairuu

OHH GOD I HAVE TO READ WHAT YOU POSTED OHH MAN

That doesn't change anything. The mod isn't lying if he says "all Aes Sedai are forced to follow the oaths" when the Black Ajah isn't even really Aes Sedai as much as Power-Wielding Darkfriends who have infiltrated the organization.

More after ABR answers my questions on why I find it highly likely that there are Aes Sedai scum.

[SpyreX]

...I'm surprised you chose not to answer the one that would help confirm/deny someone else, but hey, that was question #3 for a reason.

I also didn't ask what Ajah they were but.

So, thank LORD, you're partner isn't also red. Then I would be looking at a much higher chance.

But, we know there has to be at least TWO pairings of Aes Sedai. ABR / Partner by nature of Gentling can not be the only ones.

Now, Flavor wise, I could easily see there being FOUR sets of Aes Sedai. Why four you ask?

All 8 Ajahs. Yep, thats right.

I am NOT saying come out all willy nilly but be wary for this especially if we get past that mystical second pairing.

Unvote: ABR

@SK:

That is not relevant nor does it help at all. Under any circumstances. Bad question.

[SpyreX]

Le Sigh

[SpyreX]

Seriously. I'm the insane one. Lets not let the slapfight continue.

For now I dig ABR's claim. Although I have a concern that probably isn't even worth fighting about. Not the play, though.

Issac still feels town through and through.

Shadow's new fascination with parts of what the Aes Sedai do that he damn well shouldn't be asking brothers me.

We have far too many lurkers.

[SpyreX]

Easy to ferret out one at the cost of the other 7 coming forward? I could dig it. Especially as this wouldn't do anything to eliminate the others.

Not that I am suggesting outing, just a back-of-the-head thing.

[SpyreX]

After he did that, when I sighed. Yea, that'd be why. Two plausible scenarios, neither benefit the town. However, neither would make him scum.

Thusly, what the hell good does bringing that up now do.

[SpyreX]

And after Kinetic had chimed in there would have been ammunition. Because you're missing the other side of that coin.

Outing that at that point is not helpful. Noticing it is, but mentioning it BEFORE the hammer fell isn't.

[SpyreX]

I am Nudin Gaidoin - a former Tabac and Wool Farmer

[SpyreX]

Start Tangent:

This whole confirming Aes Sedai by that line is so ridiculous it makes me die a little inside. Its the real-world equivalent of someone on trial for murder saying "I didn't do it!" and the jury going "Well, he's under Oath so... case dismissed."

/end tangent

ABR,

I'm 80% sure I know what Shadow Knight is up to. Its so transparent that I'm sad that he did it. However, with the ball in motion this far I honestly think that answering his question about the White Ajah is going to be more beneficial than not.

As for the detection. We have Fabian who has said it worked a certain way. If you can discredit OR confirm that it goes a long way to detailing the mechanics NOW versus down the road. Which is good.

If you think there is a discrepancy because you are Aes Sedai and he is a Wisdom even then it is of more benefit than not - the only scenario where it is more beneficial to keep your mouth closed is if you think the scum do NOT know how it works and it will alter their play. Which probably isn't true if there is a Black Ajah or any other myriad of methods they'd have for knowing how it works.

So, yes, I am for you answering the questions presented before you. They are not damaging AND they have a chance to out scum apparently AND if you dont when the next Aes Sedai is up on the block we're just going to have the same rigamarole (which if you are town and give answers to they have no wiggle room around).

[SpyreX]

Like two separate scum groups that win together?

Hmm..a possibility.

How does answering either of the above alter that though?

[SpyreX]

And there it is.

[SpyreX]

Sigh, again.

I'm throwing this out there because its apparent enough that I know scum (If you aren't) have figured it out.

Replying this quickly about talking to your partner has limited your partner to a very, very small pool of players. Thats not good.

Woosh

[SpyreX]

...SpyreX, did it ever occur to you scum might NOT have worked it out?
unvote; Vote SpyreX
Before, you were just a potential threat. You're reaching the point now where you seem to be being actively anti-town in your play.

As I am not an ultra-genius. No. Scum have worked it out. Shit, I worked it out the FIRST time he did it before.

Its not hard. I have no idea why you would champion "Our enemy is so dumb he can't see what is right before him."

But, hey, I'm getting lynched so lets lay it all out there.

ABR - despite the play, decent chance he is town.
Shadow Knight - my lord, town.
Shadow Knights mysterious mason buddy - I could see town, depending on if SK's plan was done because of input from him.
Issac - probably town. I dont like the "OHH NOES THE WORLD RUINEDDD" attitude towards these claims.
KoC - If KoC IS Alberts mason buddy (which I am thinking VERY likely) then he is a very, very high candidate for scum. A duplicate white.
Faraday - Leaning town.

arm - no read, but not lying about inactivity.
cyberbob - getting replaced.
fuzzylightning - was active, died down. Retrospectively is feeling more town.
hasgafads - lurking, active on the site, pushed for a doctor lynch under spurious claims, bad juju. scummy.
julienvonwolfe - dont like the backandforth between thinking the "Line" is stupid / useful / stupid again. After doing it. Not enough to condemn, but worth watching.
Kairyuu - lurking. I really don't like his claim of no Black Ajah on spurious grounds. The Shadow Knight vote is weak. Really not doing a lot. Would vig.
Kison - needs replacing or prodding.
MacavityLock - -could- be pulling a smooth scum maneuver, but doubt it. Fairly town. Still not a "loud voice" in the latest round of proceedings.
MoS - a definite variable for me. Slightly leaning town.
Moriatorium - Flavor focused / not really doing much else. Scummish.
Mr.Flay - Now, the whole jester/vote thing + dancing around... I honestly want to say 3rd party of some sort. DEFINITELY not getting a "town" feel from him.
MrBuddy - MORE POSTS K THX. I want to say town, but wont.
Mufasa - Vig. Or lynch. This needs to be eliminated. Sooner versus later.
Myndrunner - 3 whole posts! Whooo
Sajin - Probably town. Misguided, but probably town.
Sera - Fairly town.
Slicey - V/LA, said little before. Needs to pick it up asap.
Tenchi - Not saying a lot (notice a pattern). Would like to see more content. Neutral.
Tuberkulos - Lurking. Although it appears to be sitewide. Watchful.
Fabian - Town.

So, there's some notes for when I end up lynched for pointing out the obvious.

In case you miss it: if KoC IS ABR's partner, I would hang him.

Preview Edit:

What the hell? ABR doesn't know his abilities but wasn't going to claim for him? Ohh, this game.

[SpyreX]

Ohh hey sup lurker that jumps in 8 minutes after your name is mentioned. How are you today?

If you'd like me to really explain why I can, but since I'm soooo anti-town better just lynch me before I pollute the minds of the town more.

[SpyreX]

Ohh sure, I'll give you a bite. Why not.

I give thee: Hasdgfas, purveyor of scum machinations.

(At least with only 13 posts this is much easier than some of my other megaposts)

Yes, I take the quotes within quotes out because I'm lazy. If they need to be included for actual context I will.

vote:macavitylock

I feel like you don't understand possible consequences of the whole town saying a certain phrase. Either that or you want them to.

This is not a jokevote. So, lets get down to the logic behind it.

The "line" is stupid. However, ultimately, there is no (and I use no) true negative ramifications for anyone saying it. It is just stupid because assuming there is going to be positive ramifications is a pipe dream.

So, first post, first vote. Notice this comes in AFTER others have quickly jumped all over him for it.

It may not be a Tar game, but Kinetic did steal Tar's ruleset, which gives me pause. Plus, if this was tried in the first game, I'd expect Kinetic would think of some way to mess people up.

This is a whole lot of nothing. Really. A whole lot of nothing. In fact, the last line confirms the "it might mess people up" versus "this is a scum motive-driven move".

Why play along just after you voted him for it?

But technically, hasn't the game started as soon as role PMs are sent out, because you then play your role in the thread, regardless of whether or not it had "officially started"?

I feel like this is saying nothing, and simply "posting to post"

Calling out someone for "posting to post" is always awesome this early. But, I digress. Question 1 is validish - but there's no spark behind it which is always worrisome because it reaks of waiting for responses to jump. Question 2.. ehh, its kind of there. Almost "posting to post" as it were.

Why would Fabian's plan be harmful to the town?

Where do you see that he says that he doesn't want to out the AS?
Why are you so quick to trust that if you thought he was before? Of course he's going to deny it.
I have to agree with Isacc here about the backpedaling.

What are the differences between Fabians plan and Macavities, at heart?

Why so many questions without any, again, real push on anything. Playing the waves as it were.

unvote, vote: xxFabianxx

Unnecessary claim this early makes me think it's scum who have a fakeclaim they want to get our there.

Ahh, yes. He claimed in detail at like L-1000 to get a fakeclaim out there. With confirmable parts. And claimed doctor (a role when claimed in this fashion would, in fact, just increase suspicion like it did).

So, yes, like I said. Spurious claims. Even odder when you look at the previous post.

You can still ask him about flavor, even if you don't understand it. Others still will.

But I'll humor you.

fabian, flavor please?

that's not flavor?

yep

Flavor. Aka reasons for why you're here and why your abilities are what they are. There's a little bit of that in your post, but it's mostly. "I have X ability"

This is exactly my problem with your claim.
You're not giving us the flavor, you're making us find what it is so that we can believe you. Make us believe you.

Hay hay flavor arguments how are you today. There's not much to be said about this. It is all pushing on flavor. Which, of course, is the weakest grounds to push on but at least its consistent, right...

Aaaaaaaarrrrrrgh. *grumble*

Also, unvote
Forgot I hadn't

He unvotes because I attempt to confirm part of it. Not flavor flavor flavor, but because I attempt to confirm how his role (which is a fakeclaim because it came out so early) works.

Or, perhaps, because this wagon was a lost cause. I'm thinking the latter.

Then we're at present time.

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:26 pm Post subject: 10
Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject: 11

In that time, there was 15? posts in other games. Which is bad enough.

The fact it comes out less than 10 minutes after his name is mentioned AND only references himself in everything thats going on (see the last pages). Is far more telling.

And we'll just leave alone the sooo anti-town behavior I'm doing (which I'm not). And the fact that he's still carefully avoiding this whole clusterfuck which is the forefront of activity.

Nah, I wouldn't be opposed to has lynch in the near future. Not today until this AS mess is cleared up (which is another smooth move considering his vote).

[SpyreX]

Ohh yea and:

@Shadow Knight:

I know the answer, but I just want to be 100% clear. Does your PM say that your mason buddy is also non-confirmed town?

[SpyreX]

Wait a skosh.

Yes. Claim which room we are in, so that killing roles know where to find us. Good plan. While we are at it, why don't we also tell our docs to claim who they will be protecting, so the scum can target unprotected people instead?

I'm not too sure what to make of this. I read the business on locations and I don't see anywhere where it says scum would have to be in the same location to kill. Or, really, anything about what locations actually

DO

. So, equating claiming where you are = claiming who you are protecting is very odd to say the least.

However:

I DO have the ability to detect Saidar. I was NOT notified that I felt the use of Saidar.

I feel that Albert is the better choice for lynch and that all Aes Sedai should gentle spyre tonight. I also feel that because AS can detect the use of Saidar, we should all claim which room we will be sleeping in to help detect the use and targets of Saidar powers.

As far as Albert's claim goes- I believe he is/was Aes Sedai and as such has the general Sedai powers (detect saidar, still, gentle). However, due to his anti-town play, I believe he is an excellent choice for lynch or stilling. I for one will be stilling him tonight if he refuses to comply with a plan that can confirm two players or catch a scum. If my partner is town, then they will also still him.

As we have not shuffled about to different locations, we are all in presumably the same place. Why would you push for Alberts lynch when you have evidence based on your role that Fabian would be lying about how his worked?

This makes enough not sense to actually warrant a vote.

Vote: Shadow Knight

The fact that Fabian did -exactly- what I expected is going to make me :headdesk: if SK is town AND fabian is town. Because now we have an actual does not compute.

This task would be made much easier if ABR would say whether or not HE felt the weave today too. Apparently too much to ask for though.

[SpyreX]

Voted for SK because your results don't match up - which means if both of you are town I just don't understand.

[SpyreX]

I dont get it. Fabian reaks town, but it doesn't add up - especially not with ABR "confirming" SK's not feeling anything.

Unvote, Vote: xxxFabianxxx

I still stand by my statement of if KoC IS ABR's mason buddy it's worth investigation or lynch.

Hagsfasfafdsds still reads scum.

@ABR: Just to be sure. You have not detected any power use today?

[SpyreX]

So you're voting someone. who you think is town. Am I missing something?

Yes, apparently the part of the line you quoted after the -

I can be wrong in a read and when evidence suggests I am wrong, I'm going to listen to evidence. Especially evidence from TWO players.

What does this have to do with anything?

Its...an opinion? On a very specific scenario I could see scum machinations for.

Opinions are sweet. Try it sometime.

[SpyreX]

Its not the first time I've brought it up. I'm not spending the energy explaining it unless I know KoC is ABR's partner.

Lets just say that if I am dead at that point it better not come as "SHOCKING REVELATION" when KoC IS ABR's partner and maybe, just maybe, someone else will look back and goo "Ohhhh"

[SpyreX]

Making a statement != fishing for a role.

Even IF I am right, now is not the time to deal with it. If it doesn't make sense, well, too bad. It'll come out when it does and hopefully the fact I've made it definitive at this point will mean something posthumously if I am correct.

On a side note.

The existence of the ability to still (not gentle) reinforces the idea in my head that there is Black Ajah in the game. Maybe even two or three.

Gentling can serve a pro-town purpose - see myself. It can eliminate a

potential

threat before it becomes one.

Females, however, do not go insane. If they are a threat, they are a threat

right now

. I'm pretty sure that stilling != elimination for purposes of winning, thus... stilling being there is more for the scum to utilize than not.

Ultimately, if you're going to still someone you should be willing to hang them. And, instead of wasting your actions you should do such.

As for gentling..even then its a waste of MORE actions without guaranteed success. I'm biased as I have personal stake but I could see simple elimination as a much cleaner solution.

Not today though. Today is for sorting out the mess with the Power Roles.

[SpyreX]

To be wholly pedantic, we're right after the War of Power, so there's two types of male Aes Sedai right now - Forsaken and crazymen. SpyreX is, I believe, claiming to be the third thing, a man who has just started to channel. That's why he has a chance to remain pro-town, and I suppose with this many AS claimed we should try gentling him, but SpyreX himself has said he should be lynched rather than tie up nightactions. Can I get a "Jester, Thank You!"?!?

Again: A jester wins when they are lynched. If you think I am actually a jester why would you push for my lynch.

AS TOWN, which I am, my condition for winning has a much better chance of being completed properly IF there isn't a clusterfuck on me that could be used to perform other actions (not to mention the hoedown if there was a scum watcher )

Not necessarily. You can still Forsaken...

Yes. However, you'd still have to lynch them. In very few scenarios does it make any sense to tie up abilities for someone you'd still HAVE to lynch to win.

However, for scum eliminating power roles even if you can't kill them isn't a bad deal.

No...today is for SCUMHUNTING.

If you honestly think the lynch isn't going to be in the subset of (ABR, SpyreX, Fabian, Shadow Knight) you sir are still a beautiful flower untouched by the cold and callous world.

However, you are right. The hunting can be done. However, why do you need a written invitation signed in triplicate to do it? Just do it.

In general, posts that JUST say "rolefishing is bad" are white noise. Make a statement. Do something. Don't just sit back and tsk,tsk and then expect to be applauded for it. Lord.

In general statements like "poke me when we actually start scumhunting" are rediculous and scummy. It is noted.

ABR is correct. Say locations at daybreak, not before. At least in general - there may be exceptions to the rule.

[SpyreX]

Also, SpyreX, I know how Jesters work, you don't have to beat me over the head with it. But in ANY rational game, they don't prevent other factions from winning once they exit. I don't get "2nd place" because a Jester wins. They just have a tendency to mess with scumhunting while they're alive. Luckily we're doing precious little of that, so no worries there. I still think you're a hazard and a distraction. IF we could be certain you'd be gentled tonight, I'd be all for letting you live, but we can't, and we'll never be 100% certain. What you've claimed is equivalent to a Miller, a favorite scum claim.

I'm not trying to beat you over the head with it. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I dig what you're saying about jesters in general, but what/how am I trying to mess with scumhunting?

And I guess we'll differ but if I can help it I'll never play for 2nd place.

Side Note: I've never understood how/why a scum would claim miller - especially early game. Its pretty much (like this role) condemnation to not surviving to endgame.

Really? What makes you think those roles lead to a "Deputy/Nurse" role, axiomatically? Especially a Wisdom, which probably ought not to exist during the Breaking (Kinetic's played fast and loose with a few details, it's not really a tell)?

In general I hate flavor arguments but you DO make a valid point here. Is there a precedent for when Wisdoms became prevalent in smalltowns?

This game is essentially smalltown. Powerclaims don't do diddly (with the notable exception of saidin-wielders)! Now, actions above and beyond that which could benefit or detract from one faction or another are totally different and should be leaned on. SpyreX actually gets points for having some good posts of late. Shadow Knight is trying. Isacc is trying, or was until his last post. Too many people are lurking: Mufasa, Tuberkulos, Slicey...

This is pretty damn spot-on. Worth noting.

[SpyreX]

I've always loved the slight poke - GIANT EXPLOSION responses. Good times.

This is exactly what I am talking about with role speculation.

You are professing a lynch, not on a basis of scumtells, but on the basis of a roleclaim. I dislike this.

Not to mention, he has been "counterclaimed" by two roles that are different than his, one of the people being Shadow Knight, who is trying to get every Aes Sedai to claim their sleeping positions (hugely anti-town much?). You think that's a smart counterclaim to lynch based on? Forgive me if I am of a different viewpoint.

What reason do you give to ignore similar flavored abilities having different results in a binary situation?

Yea, we can point our fingers to the sky and scream "schumhunting now!!" but really scumhunting is simply hunting-scum. By any means. Using 'flavor' (investigations, jailed suspects on a NK night, etc) IS scumhunting.

Further, its day 1. There are no true connections to scum. There is, from many players, minimal contributions to analyze. So, ignoring a method for finding and eliminating scum simply doesn't make sense.

As for this whole business with Shadow Knight. Yes, claiming where you are going to sleep beforehand has a much greater chance for negative results than positive results.

However - is it scummy?

Not in the "ohh noes not following the majority sense" that people oft love to cite, but the "this maneuver furthers the scum goals by putting us in a much better position to win" sense.

And that, of course, is a resounding no. It's not useful (much like the "Line") but the

intent

is fairly clear. Unless you're going to make the argument that scum can only kill a person in their location (which, if the case can REALLY be used to push this towards a town win) it really doesn't change one whit for the scum's process.

Shadow Knight is town. 95% sure. Or he's doing a real good job at faking.

And as for "do I think that is a smart counterclaim to lynch based on"? Yes. Compared to the "vote for a party on the confirmed side knowing full well that neither ABR or Fabian would be lynched if and when SK is town AND this whole argument can happen again tomorrow." it's a damn good one.

Fabian eliminates a variable. There is direct and valuable information to the way this game works to be gotten if he is town AND the knowledge of scum with detailed fake claims to be gotten if he is scum.

With ABR and SK both being on the same side of this issue eliminating SK, if town (which I bet) still leaves the issue of why ABR had the same non-result.

But, hey, froth at the mouth and go "how dost he accuse me" in a game built around accusation. Its cool.

I'll just add it to my speculations:

If KoC IS ABR's mason partner there is a high chance of scum.
IF Fabian is scum, Issac is suspect. If Fabian is a scum power role (especially Black Ajah), Issac is very suspect.
In the subset of massive lurkers there is at least two scum.

[SpyreX]

If Fabian flips scum power role, Issac is going up the tree.

As for the Black Ajah crusade: assuming a threat is much easier to deal with than not assuming one and being blindsided by it. You want to assume that EVERY Aes Sedai that comes out is town, fine.

Thing is, after all this, if we see one Black Ajah flip I'm gunning for your lynch. Thats it. No remorse, no questions.

[SpyreX]

Shh I'm busy SCUMHUNTING.

You opted to ignore the scenario where chances were highly probable that one party was lying for some grandiose claim of scumhunting that, oddly enough, wasn't ever followed through.

Not to mention I could just copy your three bullet points as reasons to lynch.

But, cart before the horse. We'll see what the flip is before you are done.

[SpyreX]

I wonder if ABR will be a helper tomorrow and let me know if KoC is his partner for sure so we can promptly lynch him up when he is.

[SpyreX]

This just in: I was gentled.
This also just in: I was at the Stables.

[SpyreX]

All I was told is that I was gentled. I do not KNOW if I am still crazy. I haven't received any new awesome PM's eluding to me being crazy though.

Now that I'm plain old nilla and my KoC theory has been debunked by his fantabulous death.

FoS: Buddylee
Vote: Issac

Yea forsaken counts as enough of a power role for me.

[SpyreX]

Ohh, and as a total "DUH":

If, by chance, there is ANY way to determine who else was at the stables that would be killer sweet. Since I was one of the three and gentled (assuming you believe me) there is a 50% shot at scum if we had any method of figuring out the others.

Pro Issac lynch. Also, after the "Hey I'm going to make up stuff to get ABR lynched" also pro MBL.

Of course, before any lynch happens I would also be very pro prodding the ohh... quarter of the game that said very little yesterday into opening their mouths OR getting fitted for a noose. Whichever.

As a small aside: All 3 showed dismembered. One NK ALSO shows incinerated. Odd.

[SpyreX]

What makes you think that 'notice' means anything?

Because it seems like a very odd, and specific, thing for scum. Easy enough to fill out though and check.

If/when we end up with TWO people claiming it, then we'll see that the note(s) have some merit.

Let's vote the MC now.

MC?

However, why the quick move. Yesterday:

Well all caught up. I’ll agree with Isaac on letting Spry live today because in agreement with MoS because I think we have a confirmed scum in Fabian. That being said I think Spry should be either gentled/vig’d or lynched tomorrow.

So, you've presented an either/or and are opting for an AND in there instead. Why are you so sure I wasn't gentled? EVEN if SK was killed before his power worked (which isn't normal) that still leaves three within the realms of the Aes Sedai we know about.

@ABR: Did you and/or your partner (whom I dont care who it is) gentle me last night?

Thanks for asking a question Kison

My list of suspects

spyrex
There is no way I can believe that claim that he was gentled last night, I find him very shifty and even if he is sane right now I believe that he is a dangerous player/role. He most definitely is my top of suspicions

ABR

I found him suspicious day one still find him suspicious and I think his 766 post was a bit odd, why would he think he wouldn't survive the night?

Issac

Although my suspicion on him is much lower than the previous two, I believe that Issac's defense even though he has said he wasn't defending Fabian, it most certainly looked like he had a tie with Fabian, and after Fabian flipped scum it made Issac look even worse.

Funny things about this post.

1.) It is terrible and shows a total lack of paying attention to the game.
2.) It actually makes me think Mufasa is town. Not "too scummy to be scum" but more a "I am so oblivious to whats going on you're gonna have to kill me at some point"

Why is there "no way" you can believe that I was gentled last night?
Critical thinking: why would ABR assume he would be a high-probability target last night?
What is wrong with your sentence regarding Issac?

[SpyreX]

I am absolutely confused at what "slip" Flay made that caused these mystical votes. Especially Buddy's, who I would not be opposed to seeing lynched one bit. Issac still wins the race currently though.

I'm also disconcerted by Kairuu's obsession with Slicey.

I, however, am not surprised in the least that no one else has claimed the stables.

[SpyreX]

Ohh wow.

Expect a real catchup from me tomorrow.

But, quicklike.

@Ben:

My power, before I was gentled, was a second vote. I had no night abilities. Now, I have no abilities. I'm just a cool kid.

The "note theory" is panning out nicely. Short of BOTH Myndrunner and Tuber jumping in and saying they slept at the stables thar be a liars.

Of course, with how that note is worded I have to believe that ONE of the two did since only one of the three is anti-town.

Additionally, my distribution tinfoil says the liar is a river folk. My double-tinfoil says that it is Slicey and Kai has either found someone from a different scum group or is bussin' up ins.

Needless to say, I'd REALLY like more detail on how the hell a butler is a motivator AND how it ties in with the flavor/lore AND why the hell your name is Nipon.

Expect a more detailed analysis in the near future.

[SpyreX]

Just to be clear:

I never, ever, ever thought you two were cheating. That's ridiculous. The connections are from in-game play, nothing else.

However, I called Issac out on the "Shh I'm busy scumhunting!" business before today and Kai has opted to do the same thing.

IF Issac comes up SK, Kairyuu is by no means super town. Its definitely plausible, but its not a guaranteed bit.

However, IF Issac does in fact come up scum then Kai is going up the rope.

[SpyreX]

Well, when there is a scenario (like yesterday) where chances are high that through role information there is a scum... that IS scumhunting. Ignoring the larger issues is going to raise flags and... well I'd have got you hung as town if you pulled that stunt too.

Oddly enough ABR once we got over our little spat early on I've felt the same way about you. <3

[SpyreX]

See, I believed him at first. Once the chips were down and it would have been two scum outing themselves to hit A doctor who was already under the gun... it didn't make sense. Thats the big mistake.

How about this one for size though: If Issac flips SK I'm gonna be looking REAL REAL hard at MrBuddy.

[SpyreX]

Getting two more players in so they can post their actions is also fun, especially with the notice in play.

I'm all for a lynch, but good lord.

[SpyreX]

Issac if you wanted to be protown you COULD have killed Mufasa last night then I'd have been all for letting you stay around. But, nooo.

[SpyreX]

Ohh game

Unvote

[SpyreX]

...

Mufasa I swear to god you are going to get hung after this business is taken care of.

[SpyreX]

I think Issac is going to flip SK. This power-play seems too ridiculous if they're both same-team scum. Too transparent.

However, Issac being SK does lend a large amount of credence to a second Gholam running around based on kill flavor. I could, definitely, see that being Flay.

For the last pages alone I would happily kill mufasa (HINT HINT VIG(S)). I'm not even sold on him being scum, but the behavior is erratic enough it needs to be taken down fast.

If Issac is SK and Kai is town (which could be) I also would really, really push hard on MBL.

[SpyreX]

@Kai,

I also request you stay. Trust me, if Issac is SK this whole business will work out alright.

If he's scum you're boned, but if thats the case dont bother replacing for a replacment that'll have a day.

[SpyreX]

Just give me like... 5 vig shots and I'll clear this whole mess up. It'll be sweeet.

[SpyreX]

@Yos:

Your assumption that I would become an SK is theory, and flawed at that. I can not and will not elaborate. However, I will emphatically say it is nor ever was the case. Take from it what you will.

@MBL:

If things go down the way they might, you'll get your case. I'm not dealing with a slap-and-tickle based on conjecture until this situation is resolved. Your time will come.

[SpyreX]

I definitely agree with Issac. Kai is a decent probability but depending on night actions / Issacs flip we may disagree tomorrow.

So...now you're saying that you have some kind of role based info telling you you never would have become a SK, even if you hadn't been Gentled? Do you know something now you didn't know yesterday?

Yes. I can not go into details. But yes.

[SpyreX]

I am against gentling flay tonight. Lynch him or be done - unless you think he's cookoopuffs like I was the gentle is a waste of more useful PR's. If you think he's scum, lynch him.

Not to mention my tinfoil hat theorm about how terribad it would be to suggest something like that if there was a scum watcher. Even I yesterday said that gentling me was a bad idea.

ON A RELATED NOTE:

@ABR, did your partner get a "gentling successful" message? I mean, I know it worked but did they?

[SpyreX]

"Hey lets not wait for information from the new player"

Good idea. Except not.

And...what do you mean townspeople are lying?

[SpyreX]

Ohh hay look a stables claim.

I've got my eye on yous rivermacht folk.

[SpyreX]

Is it lynchin time?

I'll be a helper if it is.

[SpyreX]

It better be something wrong.

I randomly slept at the barn. Totally forgot to send one in. Not that it mattered with last night from the looks of things.

[SpyreX]

I am vindicated!

And busy for a while today.

However, I want to see some real input from Mufasa. Or doom.

[SpyreX]

Mufasa:

Top three suspects with more than one parroted line on why. Go.

[SpyreX]

I'd say I was surprised. But, that'd be a lie. A bald-faced one.

I want to see whats going on with this other issue before I get you hung.

If people are curious why we should hang mufasa, just use that display posts to show mufasas. Pick any one. That should be enough.

The turn around from "Guys why aren't we lynching fast KoC made all the actions go away." to "Guys the replacments MIGHT BE GUN SHOOTING HAPPY DEATH VIGS OHH LORD LYNCH FAST" yesterday may also qualify.

[SpyreX]

Good lordy pay attention. Both SK's partner AND ABR's partner are white ajah and have some kind of Vote Manipulation. They said this, directly.

Anywho.

Lets take a quick look at mufasa.

His three suspects:

spyrex
There is no way I can believe that claim that he was gentled last night, I find him very shifty and even if he is sane right now I believe that he is a dangerous player/role. He most definitely is my top of suspicions

ABR
I found him suspicious day one still find him suspicious and I think his 766 post was a bit odd, why would he think he wouldn't survive the night?

Issac
Although my suspicion on him is much lower than the previous two, I believe that Issac's defense even though he has said he wasn't defending Fabian, it most certainly looked like he had a tie with Fabian, and after Fabian flipped scum it made Issac look even worse.

So, I'm #1 suspect AND ABR is #2. Yet, nor a vote on me and his vote on ABR is parroted based on "others caught him lying".

Also, in a previous post it was Me, Macavity and ABR. Macavity just vanished from the face of the earth. Sweet.

But, that doesn't get me as much as this business:

Ya everyone actions are supposedly void anyway from that persons power that died yesterday, so why wouldn't we go through with a lynch

Also how do we know that one of the two that are being replaced are not a vig and could easily pick off a townie if they were able to come back and pm an action.

In a span of 25 minutes it went from "We can push this lynch, because replacements don't matter since actions are void." to "We MUST push this lynch before the EVIL VIGS show up."

Get lynched.

Vote: Mufasa

[SpyreX]

Apologies, but turns out end of term work is much heavier than expected. I've only been able to skim the last ~5 pages or so. Still, SpyreX brings up a question I had to Mufasa that he never answered. Mufasa said that I was scummy due to my actions on page 12. I didn't post anything around there. So, I'm still waiting for an answer on that one.

I think you misread. I was making reference to the fact you were scummy to mufasa and then... not. Without reasons or explanations.

So why are you going after me specifically? How about Myndrunner (post 9), MacavityLock (with the whole repeat-after-me thing), or SpyreX for "testing" Fabian's claim? I'm out of battery time or I'd look up more.

Hold up a sec. Are you trying to say my attempt to use my power to confirm something a PR said is

rolefishing

?

Explain that please.

No, the town does not lose if a Jester lives to the end of the game (actually the Jester usually loses at that point, hence SpyreX' "I shouldn't live to endgame in any case" being part of my case. He has ASKED to be killed!

I'm really not sure what is the dealio with your fascination with this.

"Me, being a male channeler (even though I am town) in a game where male channelers are generally bad is probably not going to be condusive to an end game because I should have some inherent level of suspicion just based on my role. Thus, for me to win, it is better off that you kill me beforehand."

Yep.

[SpyreX]

@ABR:

Following that train, if JVW is scum is there an "overlord" connection to follow?

I can kinda dig flay.
Personally would still love Mufasa.

[SpyreX]

Yea my wagon is random and just because he's "bad".

Busted.

[SpyreX]

Adddendum.

I am tempted to join ABR in JVW under the caveat that if JVW is scum Benmage gets lynched so fast we're back on day 1.

Sounds good?

[SpyreX]

So your willing to lynch jvw, who may or may not turn out scum, and than try a speedlynch me. Yeah, your totally a gentled MC working for the town, and definitely not a 3rd party possibility faction (insert sarcasm here)

Did you not read all the words? There was a reason I specifically put "the caveat" JVW is scum there.

You swear Flay to be scum. ABR is 99% sure jvw is scum... others wanna see Mufasa hung, who should we follow?

Honestly looking back at Flay, other than his odd continual tangent about Jester possibility his posts are generally pretty good, comprehensive and aren't simply one-liners, he isn't high on my 'scum-radar' yet. (I'm also not suggesting that good posting/contributing clears you from the possibility of scum, I just think there are much better cases out there than Flay.)

The hell?

What is this "we" follow business?

I hate games where we get pants-on-head raceway drivers flying to the end of the scumbianopois 500. Mufasa is in the lead, but Ben is rounding the corner at record speeds!

[SpyreX]

Glad you understand.

Unvote, Vote JVW

[SpyreX]

Ahh, but we've got plenty of targets so this bespeaks stalling.

[SpyreX]

I'm totally down:

I was gentled last night.

[SpyreX]

(mind you that this, of course, isn't the absolute best use of it because if Flay IS scum he, of course, is going to say I am telling the truth but hay)

[SpyreX]

Fair enough:

I was gentled over the Twilight 1.

And, yes, really this isn't going to help because scum should be REAL good at faking lie detector. Nor, really, is it going to be useful because if its one target per day short of us all going "I am town" EVERY day and Flay hitting the right person (i.e. playing cop) are the scum going to overtly lie.

But, I'll play along.

[SpyreX]

Flay, I can understand not giving out details on your ability but if you are telling the truth depending on how this works we MAY be able to make it really, really useful:

So, couple questions before I make up a bunch of statements to check the validity since I think I am a good pig for it.

1.) Do you get a "X has lied" or "This statement by X is a lie."

2.) Further, and this is tricky: does it have to be, like the aes sedai, where if they believe it it is true OR is it a binary (this is a lie / this isn't a lie) regardless of whether or not they believe it.

[SpyreX]

Flay, I was thinking more along the lines of "hypothetically" I went:

"The person posting the notes is town."

See, -I- dont know if that is true or false. However, the mod would know if that was a factual statement.

[SpyreX]

Done and done:

I chose to sleep at the stables night 1.
I chose to sleep at the blacksmith night 1.
I chose to sleep at the river night 1.
I chose to sleep at the windmill night 1.
I chose to sleep at the barn night 1.
I chose to sleep at the silo night 1.

I chose to sleep at the stables night 2.
I chose to sleep at the blacksmith night 2.
I chose to sleep at the river night 2.
I chose to sleep at the windmill night 2.
I chose to sleep at the barn night 2.
I chose to sleep at the silo night 2.

My role PM says I win when all threats to the town are eliminated.
I've killed someone in this game.
A teammate of mine has killed someone in this game.
I have the ability to kill in this game.
My win condition has changed this game.
My win condition has not changed this game.
I know my win condition has changed this game.
I know my win condition has not changed this game.

I am a male user of the one power.
I am a female user of the one power.
I am a male user of the true power.
I am a female user of the true power.

I am a farmer.
I am a blacksmith.
I am a tabac gatherer.
I am from a city.
I am from a village.

I was gentled N1.
I was gentled N2.
I was not gentled N1.
I was not gentled N2.

I was gentled T1.
I was gentled T2.
I was not gentled T1.
I was not gentled T2.

I have never used my shadow power.
I have used my shadow power.
I have used my shadow power and didn't tell anyone who.
I still have my shadow power.

My win condition if it changed would have been to an SK
My win condition if it changed would have been to something else.
My win condition has already changed.
I still win with the town.

I was one of the town people mentioned in the notice left.
I was the non-town role mentioned in the notice left.

[SpyreX]

Arm: I never had any Oaths. I am a male that was going batshit crazy.

I figure'd I would hit ALL the bases. There's some hax in there that if he gets them all right AND is scum he, well, deserves the win.

[SpyreX]

MoS just put himself on the block for this.

I approve of that dance. Flay, you damn well better use it on that.

Unvote, Vote: Mr.Flay

[SpyreX]

Hey I have a novel idea.

Lets behave like real people and:

1.) Not spew this all over a game thread
2.) Come to come kind of accord so this doesn't ever happen to anyone else ever again because my lord.

[SpyreX]

Randomly assigned blacksmith.

Aside from the fact I am town, yea, with two hits its not a BAD day to hang me. I'd much prefer scum, but like I said before I dont expect to make it to end game with my role so.

[SpyreX]

AHAHAHAH

Ohh man the worlds biggest I told you so.

Vote: Mufasa

Ohh and to start being a helper:

Barn

Faraday

River

Kairyuu
Mufasa

Blacksmith

SpyreX
Seraphim
Setael

Windmill

Moratorium
MacavityLock

Silo

Sajin

[SpyreX]

As for MBL's theories.

One huge problem I have with it is that, so far, the notes haven't been overshot.

In fact, the first note having only two lends credence to an "ohh shit" reaction by scum and them lying about their results.

If they were both scum and this was some crazy machinations that would mean they were counting on absolutely no town to sleep there as well. Which would require some insight into the setup I'm just not gonna buy.

As for Flay - if you were scum and there was a notice up that was TRUE, wouldn't you try to debunk it? I sure as hell would.

[SpyreX]

Seriously. This is a no brainier.

Called this mess day 1. Get lynched.

[SpyreX]

That sounds like a pair of win conditions that don't quite mesh well.

Sup get lynched tia.

[SpyreX]

So, you're not town. Gotcha.

[SpyreX]

I dont know. This is pretty special. The grammar is a plus.

Also, fell the wrath of my note vindication when he flips, get this, anti-town.

[SpyreX]

Not = anti
Not town = anti-town
Thusly, when you flip "NOT TOWN" you will fulfill what the sign said.

[SpyreX]

Wow.

Not winning with the town = not having the best interests of the town at heart.

Its all good you've done your part.

[SpyreX]

Ohhh...

Thats cool then

[unvoteeeohgoddemonshavemykeyboard]

welp, I tried.

[SpyreX]

Its hard to make up lies, much less good ones. He can't be a helper.

That said @Set:

If this flip goes like it will I'd do a very hard look at the river folk day 1. But, yea.

[SpyreX]

Ohh yea thats right.

Who are we missing on locations?

[SpyreX]

Less catchup and more "post your damn sleeping location"

That'd be sweeet

[SpyreX]

<6> Twilight Actions MUST be sent before the Twilight begins. If a Twilight Action is not received before the twilight begins it is considered not used. There will be no exception. These abilities can be roleblocked
<7> Daybreak Actions must be sent before Twilight ends. Normally there will be a final deadline for Daybreak actions a few hours after Twilight begins. These abilities can be roleblocked. Any active ability that does not specify that it is a Twilight or Rapid Action is a Daybreak action.

Posting lends one to not believe there is, but it isn't 100% conclusive.

[SpyreX]

Ohhhhhhhh

Snap

[SpyreX]

Sigh, trying to trap ABR in an actual lie isn't going to work because:

1.) If he is scum he sure as hell isn't going to risk screwing himself.
2.) If he is town, see #1.

Both of those statements are subjective in relation to what ABR thinks. They, by nature, can not be an objective lie.

[SpyreX]

I can dig benmage as a partner + independantly being scummy.

Again, follow me:

If ABR thought they were talking out of thread it wasn't a lie.

The only things ABR could, in fact, lie about would be things in his PM (or outrageously stupid things)

[SpyreX]

@spyrex - unless he's black ajah, in which case he can lie all he wants. You follow me?

.. yea, but its moot.

Trying to catch him in a lie on grounds that are subjective isn't going to work. Concrete evidence is all there's gonna be.

[SpyreX]

Evidence plox

[SpyreX]

Before I go to sleep tonight I'll revote.

IT IS KNOWN

[SpyreX]

Hey set if you're gonna come back post the evidence backing your claim because I looked it up and didn't see it kthx.

[SpyreX]

Unvote, Vote: Musfasrasa

Night ye merry gentlemen

[SpyreX]

Yea too obvious flak for a scum move imo - assuming the reason is good.

[SpyreX]

Ohh lord hammer him someone.

[SpyreX]

Huh... I'll have to assume that there is no mod error and both notes reference the barn.

Which means they're worthless.

Blacksmith up in (random).

[SpyreX]

Probably because of statements like that one.

ABR, by now, would have drawn an investigation and it would have came out if he was guitly.

Instead, why would you kill a PR that is a constant source of suspicion?

[SpyreX]

Ohh this game.

Lets try this again:

The statement "I KNOW you are scum" is subjective and is not a lie even if he is wrong because the KNOWLEDGE itself is subjective.

If it was quantified into an objective statement such as:
"I KNOW you are scum because I investigated you and got a scum result."

Then it could be a lie. As it stands only things that are objectively lies or objectively wrong due to things SAID BEFORE THE STATEMENT could be construed as lies.

If the Aes Sedai worked the way you keep going the best thing we could do is have each one just say "of the group X,Y,Z at least 1 is scum" and if they lost their powers hay we've got some innocents. It doesn't work that way because its retarded.

As is going over this EVERY DAY. ABR hasn't LIED about anything we can ferret because the only thing he could have really lied about is actually being an Aes Sedai and if he lied about that then the whole set of conjectures wouldn't mater because he could lie about whatever he wanted.

With that said: this whole business is retarded.

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

Macavity is tech.

[SpyreX]

Where do they detail the punishments in the OP?

[SpyreX]

This to all:

Why did you automatically disbelieve the notes?

I mean, with todays shenanigans sure, but in general.

[SpyreX]

.... huh

Touche' kai.

Keep in mind, the flipside of this is if he hasn't lost his powers AND flips town Aes Sedai you, by your own arguments, are dead.

Unvote, Vote ABR

You better have a convincing reason for this.

[SpyreX]

Him holding the fact he lost his powers due to this would be so anti-town it'd make my eyes bleed.

So, if he flips Aes Sedai you are dead. Period.

I REALLY dont like you already preparing a defense for this.

[SpyreX]

@ABR:

Did you have a concrete reason to say that Kai was scum.

Yes / No.

[SpyreX]

There COULD be a scum motivator.

However, by your own omission you couldn't say X is scum without objectively knowing such.

You have done that.

You have not said you lost powers.

[SpyreX]

Thats not how it works though by your own post.

Unless you have concrete evidence you have lied.

[SpyreX]

Yes, I am tricking you through my vast amounts of trickery (i.e. your own posts).

[SpyreX]

Which is fine and all but for the fact you categorically declared that what you did WOULD be by rules a lie.

You never, ever said you lost your powers.

Thus, either your first statement was a lie OR you opted to not tell us that you lost your powers.

I'm not banking on "mod screwup" for something that clear cut.

[SpyreX]

Then when I asked yes/no if you had concrete evidence why didn't you just say so.

[SpyreX]

Say it nice and clear.

"My partner has a guilty on Kai."

Then I will.

[SpyreX]

Swish.

[SpyreX]

The fact you wont just go through the simple step really confuses me.

I dig your play sans the whole zwet deal too.

[SpyreX]

... awesome

Its like people are falling over themselves to get lynched.

Unvote, Vote: MBL

Thought you were going to just give it up today. Nice when things change.

That said the ABR/Kai thing will also be dealt with today.

[SpyreX]

"I'm not going to give the easy piece of information BUT I will sure softclaim"

Gee, my unvote button seems stuck.

[SpyreX]

If I think I'm infinitely smart and I am, in truth, only a fraction of that..

Actually, what the hell does my "intelligence" have to do with the fact you softclaimed for no reason AND chose to not give the simple piece of information that was requested?

Nice ad hom though.

[SpyreX]

Alas I am scum I am unmatched. He has the game all figured out.

Sigh

[SpyreX]

Sweet I am a friend of scum!

Do I get a newsletter?

[SpyreX]

Wow, my irony meter just overloaded.

[SpyreX]

Ohh hay I'll choo choo this.

Unvote, Vote Benmage

Lets see what happens now that the "friend of scum" is all up ins.

As an aside and I'm not grilling you just confused:

@ABR:

Considering what you've said.. how the hell HAVENT you lost your powers? That seems like a direct contradiction.

[SpyreX]

I guess that makes sense. So.

[SpyreX]

Unvote

And, no, I dont have a secret vote nor have I since day 1.

[SpyreX]

8 Pro-Town masosn? Come on.

[SpyreX]

Actually now that its mentioned I want some serious business from arm. He's been lurking up the wazzooooo and the clusterfuck keeps hiding it.

[SpyreX]

I will continue to ignore the rolefishing. I do not think it is wise to put more abilities and PRs on the table at this time as that lets scum figure out how to deal with them.

Sigh. See, statements like this are useless. You are out. They asked for no target.

Further, and this was an idea I was toying with to allow 8 damn Aes Sedai masons in this game wihtout my head exploding....

You've said you ARE a PR. Part of me was thinking/hoping that at least one or two Aes Sedais couldn't actually do anything.

As it sits now there is all but guaranteed a Black Ajah (duh) to me.

And if it requires a damn wagon to get this answered, I will.

As an aside:

I'll freely admit the last few pages that have turned into flavor flavor setup dance I glaze over. Can someone compile the claims / connections in a simple spot?

[SpyreX]

I assumed it was a votecount error. If its not, someone is up to tricks.

That most definitely isn't me.

[SpyreX]

If it helps regarding the gentling/stilling business:

I was 100% directly told that I was gentled. If you HAVE been, you would know.

[SpyreX]

I have far, far more issues with MBL than ML via play.

However, considering that ML is the "other" mystical white that, in theory, can manipulate votes and there IS a vote manipulation designed to try and get ME lynched (as it hasn't been clarified).

I'm in the process of rereading this whole mess of a game. I'll have some notes and what have you.

Here's a taster: I think we're at (shock) 8 total Aes Sedai. As no living Aes Sedai have been stilled I am thinking there is only -one- Aes Sedai Black Ajah.

I'll have more for this after this is done.

[SpyreX]

.... An Aes Sedai actually giving a direct an awesome answer.

Wait a second though. Have I confused myself.

Are you ABR's partner?

[SpyreX]

Scream at me for rolefishing all you want:

One of your powers at minimum can affect a vote count? Yes or no.

You are here so I expect a fast answer.

[SpyreX]

... But, you are saying you do have something that would make ABR's statement about White Ajah and "vote manipulation" be, in fact, a true statement?

[SpyreX]

Fair enough. Back to my reading. That's all I've got for you now.

[SpyreX]

(needless to say if, after I catch up, it comes to a ML/MBL I'm going to be pushing HARD for MBL)

[SpyreX]

We're up to 14 now? Really?

Up to page ohh... 38 and I'm REALLY confused especially in rereading some of ABR's statements regarding how lying works.

Such as:

Kairyuu says I'm confirmed town which I am not comfortable with. Only scum would say something like that when there's no evidence to prove it. If you look at his overall posts, all he does is look out for himself. Furthermore, its impossible that Kairyuu is AS because he claimed that Fabian was 100% scum before Fabian died.

There's a huge issue with cognitive dissonance here.

God I dont even know yet.

[SpyreX]

If you were scum and pushed this false dilemna then you would be dead tomorrow. Period. Abandoning it doesn't change that.

[SpyreX]

God in heaven that was a painful reread.

Comments/Questions, etc:

1.) What is the obsession today with blacksmith. Even if we're going by notes, they say BARN today. Not blacksmith.

2.) I'm really not seeing this 14 AS deal - considering we have 8 that means of the susbet of 10 unclaimed players 3/5ths of them would be AS. Not buying it and not understanding. Which leads me to (OMG ROLEFISHING)
--- MoS: just claim AS already. I'm not the smartest fish but if you're not AS then I dont understand. I even think I know who your partner is (and if I know, scum who are looking would damn well know).
--- If/when this happens, there may be a glaring issue to (like so many others) be put to rest.

3.) There is a subset of this game that, really, I forget are playing. In this grouping: JVW, Arm, Goat, Yos I would bet there is at least A scum, if not more.
--- My money is on Yos. I'd almost vote for him now but too lazy to make the full case.

4.) With 6 / 16 outed already there is a definite argument for a massclaim today.

5.) Why in the hell did Benmage NOT attempt to bond me knowing everything I've said I would have met his criteria for a Warder perfectly.

7.) If you don't think in this grouping of Aes Sedai there is at least A scum (if not 2 depending on the unclaimed roles) then you're nuts.

8.) I've compiled a decent spreadsheet - what would be the easiest way to get it accessible to all?

[SpyreX]

I say thats a weak and inexcusable plan considering everything going on.

Sajin: Have I missed it or did you claim a color?

[SpyreX]

Ohh and for completeness:

Macavity, KoC, JVW, Benmage, Kai, Yos, ABR, Goat, Sajin, MBL - Can I get your Night 2 sleeping locations

[SpyreX]

I sure had one Ben. And I have notes that say others did too. Just because no abilities went off doesn't mean we didn't sleep.

[SpyreX]

If you, yourself, says it means nothing then why wouldn't you just tell me?

[SpyreX]

Completeness, for analysis.

[SpyreX]

For the life of me I'll not get the issues that people decide to be obstinate on.

[SpyreX]

What part of 2*7 don't you get?

The fact that you are far more adamant about 2*7 (which requires a whole grip more AS than we have according to my noes) versus the far more likely (1*8).

This is doubly true since you're showing bewilderment at why/how I think you are AS.

Excuse me?

How could you have forgotten I was playing?

Not only have I been consistantly active this game, I was also a major force behind the Issac lynch and the Mr Flay lynch. Not only have I been active this game, I've been quite effective at scumhunting as well. And I've posted a lot today as well; I'm sure everyone knows who I'm suspicious of, for example.

If you "fogot I was playing", you really aren't paying attention to the game...

I'll get into you in detail before the day ends, but yes at surface you were involved with the Issac and Flay lynches: however, the fact that the Mafia group are Survivors alters the dynamic I would expect from scum + a SK death, while nice, doesn't preclude scum doing it.

I want to make sure my list is coming up correct. Is this right:

MacavityLock (White Ajah) - ABR (Red Ajah)
Benmage (Green Ajah) - Sajin (? Ajah)

Shadownight (Green Ajah) - Kison (White Ajah)
Faraday (Grey Ajah) - ?

Kai - Butler
SpyreX - Gentled Doublevoter

[SpyreX]

@Sajin:

Color, please, kthx

@Ben, Kai, Yos, ABR, Goat, MbL:

Night 2 Locations, please. If you've given them and I've missed it let me know again.

And I know I'm late to this mess but I swear to god Benmage your words don't make sense:

My partners twilight four detections:
Blacksmith:
from silo from river.
to silo to barn.
1 each.

What the hell does this mean?

The blacksmith had two go out: 1 to the barn, 1 to the silo.
The blacksmith had two come in: 1 from the silo, 1 from the river.

If this is the case and everything is correct, is this also the case:

Anyways I detected saidar:
1 target to stables, 1 target to barn, 1 target to silo

Note, here you're not claiming a specific location so I have to assume you're talking about the...river? Or is this all?

Preview Edit:

Good lord why, WHY, do people pick what they do to be obstinate about. Sajin: I didn't ask what color you weren't. What magic voodoo does your color serve.

[SpyreX]

I'm also really weighing the benefits of a massclaim today. Something(s) are amiss in ye old town that I want cleared up.

[SpyreX]

In addition, let me clarify:

1.) It is becoming highly unlikely that there are any vanilla town.
2.) Considering what has happened I find it highly unlikely there are scum safeclaims
--- Considering point 1, that means we'd have a massive jump over scum in analysis.
3.) There are a few things that I want CLAIMED before I spew out my questions.
4.) There is a definite logic puzzle within the detections / night placements.
5.) Unless I screwed up my tables (surprise) there are again less people at the location than the notes say. Which lends me to believe that one note was correct and the other is not - and the second was designed to let the scum slide by.
6.) With all the flavor out in the open we can analyze WITHOUT "mystic pro-town reasons" for hiding key pieces.
7.) We already are at damn near a majority that HAVE claimed which is shifting the information bias towards scum.

So, weigh in.

[SpyreX]

In general making a Warder is exactly what I would expect a Green's ability to be.

The fact its failed over and over (and SK apparently didn't either) is concerning.

[SpyreX]

but no one else this game has claimed a vauge, flavorish ability where they don't really know what it does.

Thats because, at heart, we've had very few fullclaims. Even of those:

1.) Can you explain why a butler is an empowerer (or why there is a butler named Nipon)
2.) The "vote manipulation" of the White Ajah?
3.) The full abilities of the Red Ajah?

Hell, the only two that are alive AND have actually given 100% this is what I do claims are: myself and Ben.

And, yes, there is some definite issues with him around Flay... but he's not the only one. The above is a fairly large town++ for me, especially considering Flay, Fabian AND Mufasa's claims or lack thereof.

[SpyreX]

Considering:
1.) No AS has done anything to truly "confirm" themselves (hint: this requires both play and abilities)
2.) Draws suspicion by the sheer number of them in existence
3.) Are almost universally playing close to the chest

I'd honestly be surprised to see AS die. Further we've seen no yellows so a doc isn't out of the realm of existence.

ABR is still alive because, despite all the poshing aside, he's been a talking point EVERY DAY.

[SpyreX]

Thats the things with the "lies" though that I keep going back and forth about. The lies DO make sense within the confines of "trying to lie" but that counteracts itself with ABR's own statement early on of how it worked.

On the flipside, I do find his play (especially regarding Issac) pro-town. Being a black AS, coming out to declare a RB and push on those lynches the way he did takes some special maneuvering. This is doubly so considering that until we have evidence otherwise I'm assuming a main scumgroup and third parties - which would make ABR a survivor on top of everything else.

I wouldn't be drastically opposed to an ABR lynch but I'm not going to lie to myself and say its because I'm 100% A+ convinced he's scum. Its more these issues + clearing up how the damn AS actually work.

In my reread I found it odd that Fabian was looking to ABR specifically to backup his claim.

I'm still going to be pushing massclaim FYI. We need this information out to clear a few things.

[SpyreX]

I am the town. I am the law.

Kneel or be knelt.

But, srsly, I want more to weigh in.

[SpyreX]

I, personally, am leaning against there being a "traditional" cop in the setup.

I fully expect there to be a doc and, yes, they have a high chance of being a sacrifice.

However, lets assume out of the unclaimed there are 3 (which is about what I expect) non-town roles left.

That gives a pool of 7 and, with worries about the above, a 2/7 chance of eliminating them. Not to mention whatever the hell else is out there.

That weighed against having the puzzle laid out I think will be a net town gain.

[SpyreX]

Ohh and @Benmage:

Clarify my question about twilight 1 / today (its last page somewhere)

[SpyreX]

@MoS -

* = 7 "ajah's" + 1 black ajah.

Of course you can't give an even dispersement under that because then the double obviously contains the scum.

[SpyreX]

White, Grey, Blue, Yellow, Green, Red, Brown, Black = 8 just so we are clear what I mean.

[SpyreX]

Why in the name of Zeus would you want just an "Aes Sedai come on out" claim.

If we're doing it, do it right.

[SpyreX]

Sorry SpyreX, already disproved. We have 1 dead Green, 1 live claimed Green, 1 dead White, 1 live claimed White. Even assuming that 1 of the live claimed is Black, that leaves another live claimed overloading your setup.

I'm really not explaining myself well.

8, total, AS would make sense as a natural extension of 8 ajah's / there is A scum amongst them.

However, the balance to that is simple: you don't give an even distrubtion - at that point its not a matter of simple doubleclaim hanging.

But, its moot and should be cleared up once the other issue is:

See above. A full claim doesn't really help us right now, but a partial claim *does*.

So, you're saying have all the AS claim and the other ones not when it is becoming extremely apparent this is a vanillaless setup isn't a license to kill?

Further, all of the AS are power roles. That is obvious. Would you just have them claim AS OR would you want a full claim knowing that the yellow, if it exists, is marked for death without knowing what of the other roles is the best choice to protect?

If we decide to notclaim (which based on numbers of actual claims is not a good idea) we need to do it right. Pin down claims NOW versus letting scumclaims be refracted against night actions.

[SpyreX]

And, again, MoS: If you are AS just claim. If you're not I honestly dont understand your play regarding this issue.

Regardless, that puts the ball in motion.

[SpyreX]

I'll mention why AFTER this whole claim business goes away. Or after the game. No need to bother with that.

If you're pushing this so hard why don't you go first - it might come out regardless.

[SpyreX]

Ever gonna answer my question about your declaration ben?

[SpyreX]

Not weak. Its very irksome and the issue I've went back and forth about the most.

I really, really, really, really still want an A+ full massclaim today. I am BANKING on being able to bust at least A scum from that and I bet at least one other from having the logic puzzle out in the open.

(The only reason I'm supporting this AS-claim business is I'm hoping its a gateway drug)

@Benmage:

Post yours like Kai did for day 1 AND day 4 again (or all of em but those are the two I am most interested in)

[SpyreX]

*gasp* Enter my shock and/or awe.

I approve of your choice. That alone is town++ points.

[SpyreX]

Well, kinda. I remembered this isn't the truly useful one. But we'll see.

[SpyreX]

Chainsaws go VROOM VROOM

(Chainsaw is one of those words like "meta", "WIFOM", "Vote: SpyreX" that just should be banned).

[SpyreX]

Now I'll give you your I told you so and raise you:

With FIVE WHOLE ROLES not out, shouldn't we just fullclaim?

[SpyreX]

Especially considering the obvious avenue of:

Riddle me this, what near the breaking would interact with the One Power AND not be an AS AND be a town aligned role?

[SpyreX]

Ohh it was coming. Like I said.

Further, just to make sure we dont have ballsy as all getout scum - we need partners too.

Ohh and by my numbers TSS HAS to be AS or something is truly off.

Additionally:

@MoS:

Is your partner JVW?

[SpyreX]

KoC uncorked the bottle as it were. Lets just pretend we've argued about it for a week or so and skip right to where everyone fullclaims so we can move on with our lives.