War in Heaven II - Spirit of Vengeance (Over!)

[The Fonz]

Hurting ABR, or paraphrasing movies?

[The Fonz]

Because I realised that I've used the 'just being ABR' defence too much, and last time i did that, he was scum. Because i think that his calling hurts on half the town completely undermined the system, and made it look like he'd hurt anyone. Because we still need to kill scum soon, and i'm having a hard time seeing a scumgroup not including him.

[The Fonz]

say, you wanna know why those people at the bottom of your % list are where they are, firestarter? because they have barely been hurting

anybody

.

Three of the bottom five 'town hurters' on the list didn't hurt shinnen either. So there's some truth here.

[The Fonz]

yays i lived long enough to do some good

hurt: fonz

with a whirling dance of blades and fire

By good, you mean 'even more damage to the town' right?

[The Fonz]

q21: You did not have support. If you had support, they'd have hurt along with you. Only one other player EVER hurt Zwet.

[The Fonz]

Heal: q21

Since him being town is basically the only way we can possibly win. Hopefully i'm not already dead.

[The Fonz]

Guys btw, WHEN I flip town, you're going to need to hurt at an enormous rate of knots to avoid the game being done, if it isn't already.

(I'm not even going to bother opposing my death here- it just wastes time. I will die sooner rather than later. And it's probably gonna be game over. If it isn't, then stalling doesn't help).

[The Fonz]

I'm one hurt away from dying, guys.

(Loyal Cherub)

Btw, tajo and firestarter are so scum. PoA suggests Yos is too.

[The Fonz]

EBWOP: PoE

[The Fonz]

Oh and once last thing: the fact that i haven't dumped rage basically proves me town. But meh.

[The Fonz]

Oh and once last thing: the fact that i haven't dumped rage basically proves me town. But meh.

Uh...unless that's what that 6 point rage dump on q21 was.

Except that 1) that happened yesterday, so before the rage would have shown up and 2) at a time when i clearly wasn't online.

[The Fonz]

Oh, and Yos is right. All players to L-1 is an INCREDIBLY scummy plan.

[The Fonz]

Oh and once last thing: the fact that i haven't dumped rage basically proves me town. But meh.

Uh...unless that's what that 6 point rage dump on q21 was.

Except that 1) that happened yesterday, so before the rage would have shown up and 2) at a time when i clearly wasn't online.

Hmm. In the first games, were rage points individual, or do the scum hold them as a group? How does it work?

Ask someone who was scum there. Or is scum here.

[The Fonz]

Bah, go town.

[The Fonz]

Oh yes, and don't you dare put Tajo at the end of the list. Kill him next.

[The Fonz]

No and no. Rofl just killed me.

[The Fonz]

Bah. I had Nuwen as scum, but Rofl's constant hurting of townies forced me to hedge my bets on that one.

Well played to DGB, who is the one scum player i never really suspected.

I made the cardinal sin in this game of allowing Seraphim's (incredibly surprising, to me) town flip to make me completely lose faith in hurting town as a scumtell. After that, i started thinking one of the most active players must be some kind of shadowy, mr. big figure pulling the strings behind the scenes.

[The Fonz]

Oh, and i need to listen to Tajo less.

[The Fonz]

I think every townie can point to 3-4 town deaths they'd never have supported, and was on at least 2-3 town deaths someone else in the town would never have supported.

So was Q21 an SK, or what?

[The Fonz]

When did I defend DGB, Albert?

At one point I had Seraph-Xyl-DGB as a scumgroup. Once Seraph went down, though, both the others no longer looked scummy to me. The Xyl kill was scummy as f***.

[The Fonz]

Honestly, Albert, i can't remember any instances of me defending dgb.

[The Fonz]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 64#1564164

You said this at a pivotal point in the game.

That's the one time i said something against hurting DGB. And it didn't seem like a pivotal point to me. Besides, you could have hurt with other people's support, if you'd made a case. I also said this:

I do agree, incidentally that DGB is the most obvscum. Hurting just before the first rage dump, for instance. (Or did she heal? That would be even worse).

[The Fonz]

while copter was mowing the town down.

This was the point. I certainly had Nuwen as top suspect for most of the game, but couldn't do anything about it, because i was terrified of what would happen if my read on rofl was wrong, which looked more and more likely with every town hurt.

[The Fonz]

Basically, the problem here was, whenever we suspected a group of players, the town member of that group got hurt first, and then their flip took the pressure off the scum member.

[The Fonz]

Because they were previously unhurt, and we listened to Tajo too much. Honestly, I couldn't believe it when after the Shinnen lynch, he turned around and said 'right, right now the biggest threat is random hurting.' Dear God. I just kinda acqueisced there, in the hope that one of the already-hurt would flip scum, and that would give more info.

[The Fonz]

Healing suspects would just have slowed things down, though. And when we did heal someone because they were injured, and no-one suspected them, it was firestarter...

Also, two of the three scum basically got a free pass- Giuseppe for being V/LA whilst a load of hurting was going down, and firestarter for replacing in.

[The Fonz]

We didn't know about the rage cap.

[The Fonz]

Actually, that's another point, DB- with q21 uncapped, it looked as if scum were able to use however many HP.

[The Fonz]

?
[*]Why didn't ANYBODY question the wisdom of scum having a 'cap' of 6 RP in a game with mass healing available?!?

I never thought there was any kind of cap. I mean, if someone had suggested the idea, i'd have rejected it on the grounds that it made the game unbalanced towards town.

And yeah; town would have done better to not be QUITE so agressive; town DOES want to lynch about once a week or so, so the scum don't get too many free hits, but more then that and the accuracy of the lynch starts to drop a lot and that costs the town. If I'm town in a game like this next time, I probably would support some kind of hypo-voting system.

See the post Xyl made early on, on the (entirely reasonable) assumption that scum rage accrued every sunday. Every three days appeared to give us twice as many mislynches as once a week.

[The Fonz]

uot;]We didn't know about the rage cap.

Are you kidding? You accepted EVERYTHING else about rage generation and THAT is what you conveniently forgot? You, Rolf, and ABR were SOOOOO focused on never letting scum accumulate rage that you forgot the rage cap...

What do you mean, forgot? There was no evidence of a rage cap! If there had been, I'd have acted completely differently. What do you think all those arguments about 'scum is going to kill SOMEONE' were about?

[The Fonz]

And yeah; town would have done better to not be QUITE so agressive; town DOES want to lynch about once a week or so, so the scum don't get too many free hits, but more then that and the accuracy of the lynch starts to drop a lot and that costs the town. If I'm town in a game like this next time, I probably would support some kind of hypo-voting system.

See the post Xyl made early on, on the (entirely reasonable) assumption that scum rage accrued every sunday. Every three days appeared to give us twice as many mislynches as once a week.

Hmm. Eh, I suppose the extra rage points per mislynch screwed with that. (Although that was dangerous; if town had figured out that mechanic, they could possibly have figured out how many scum were on each townie wagon)

Still, even if the scum just got 1 rage point/scum/week, that's still only 4 damage/week, or basically 1 scum kill every 2 weeks, more or less. If town lynched once a week, and didn't do a lot of extra random damage to other people, town still controls a lot more of the kills then in a "normal" game, and with a little more time to think (and perhaps a fake-voting system like Tajo was suggesting to keep things a little more controlled) I suspect town would lynch right a lot more often.

But we didn't think they got 1/week: my working assumption was that given the extra size of the game, scum would get two or three rage points each per week.

Basically, from the point when you were under attack, Fonz, town had enough info to basically figure out who the scum were, if they had taken the time to do a full analysis and figure out who had attacked who when. They couldn't, though, because they didn't have enough time to go through the whole thread and do that kind of analysis, or anywhere close to it; if town had moved a little slower, we might have lost.

The thing is, Yos, we figured that, because the scum was getting all that rage, we had to kill and kill quickly before more rage accumulated.

[The Fonz]

I can only speak for myself, but if anyone HAD ACTUALLY MENTIONED THAT RAGE CAP WHEN ARGUING FOR THE PSEUDOVOTE SYSTEM, I would have accepted it.

The following quote appears to suggest that Xyl was in the same boat:

No, there's no way to deadlock. Eventually the scum get enough rage points that they can just kill someone from full health, and boom! You can't heal the dead. Repeat until all townies are gone.

[The Fonz]

Well, not really. Tajo was the main 'wait for agreement' guy and outlived any of the aggressive faction.

[The Fonz]

The most scummy thing Kinetic did, for me, was continually call for himself to be healed. Just looked like self-preserving scum.

Going v/la, letting town lynch town and wait for the fallout, does seem to be a good scum tactic, lol.

[The Fonz]

I still don't know why the hell anyone hurt Xyl after DGB confirmed him, though. That was a total headscratcher. I'd have been for killing DGB to confirm xyl, but sadly, he was dead before i could get to a computer that evening. Then when he died, no-one wanted to hurt DGB anymore.

[The Fonz]

I wanted DGB lynched before Xyl, at one stage.

But someone, I believe Fonz, questioned why DGB before Xyl.

I should have went after DGB first, I had a real good feeling there was a fallen ophan after the fact Metatron, Tenchi, was lynched.

I listened to fonz waaaay too much after I replaced in, it was for the detriment of town.

WTF!? I was extremely strongly in favour of no Xyl lynch while DGB lives.

[The Fonz]

Reading back through my posts, that bit where I was insisting that Xyl, DGB, and Giuseppe were my top suspects is painful.

Actually, in fact, for most of the game i had Xyl, DGB, and either Nuwen or Giuseppe. D'oh.

[The Fonz]

Really, Tajo? I was saying throughout that I thought you were town. In fact, I only really started thinking you were scum about when I died, and i realised how many times you'd set up lynches by going 'Well, if he's town, that other guy who disagrees with him must be scum... hmm no, ok, if he's town, then HE must be scum... no, ok, then it's HIM...' Oh, and that completely ridiculous 'put people to L-1' and 'I'M CONFIRMED TOWN' bit. Which was just bizarre.

[The Fonz]

Oh, God no. I completely lost faith in myself after Seraphim flipped town. But it's just not true to say i had you as scum. You were pissing me off, but I thought you were town. In many ways, I played the worst of all. I had the scum in my sites, but i completely panicked.

[The Fonz]

Hehe.

To be honest Tajo, at the end there i was wondering if they hadn't perhaps given you slightly too many meds...

[The Fonz]

Oh, God no. I completely lost faith in myself after Seraphim flipped town. But it's just not true to say i had you as scum. You were pissing me off, but I thought you were town. In many ways, I played the worst of all. I had the scum in my sites, but i completely panicked.

Good to know. If you could change anything in this game about your play, what would it be?

Oh lordy lordy. So many things.

I shoulda been more proactive after the Shinnen lynch. I just kinda let people push their cases, because i was kinda lost myself, and was hoping someone else might. Then, before i knew it, we were at crisis stations.

I'd have stuck my neck out for WLC.

I DEFINITELY wouldn't have gone into my shell post-Seraphim, and followed DGB as the one player not responsible for hurting town left and right.

To be honest, the worst feeling was my utter powerlessness re: Rofl. I felt in my bones he was certainly town, and so kinda just hoped he'd be right sooner rather than later. But at the same time, my fear of him utterly decimating the town kept me from going after Nuwen, who i actually thought was scum, because she was the one player who had the ability to hold him in check.

[The Fonz]

But I will concede that trying to find a group of 3 in a pack of 19 is tough, once Shinnen self-destructed. The town just didn't scumhunt, though, almost everyone was drunk on the power of being a slow Vig.

I often think it's the second scumlynch that's really key to who wins. If it comes early, it's almost impossible for scum. The longer it takes, the more town players get paranoid and start seeing massive convoluted conspiracies, and the more ammo there is against town players (because they've lynched townies). Hence what happened here. Hoopla, WWB and Juls die and are town, then we go after the people who killed them and they were town too...

[The Fonz]

DGB- any chance of a Food Fight sequel?

[The Fonz]

Erm, WE WERE all lynched. Except rofl. And don't forget Xyl.

Of course, IF YOU'D MENTIONED THERE WAS A RAGE CAP we'd probably have won.

[The Fonz]

Yet you never brought up 'scum cannot kill someone from full +1 hp' EVER.

[The Fonz]

Nope. Antitown, in absence of rage cap and kill-based rage.

[The Fonz]

]

Nah, Julz was a pretty good lynch. It wasn't ideal, but she wasn't contributing and should have asked for replacement WAY before she was the target she was.

Whatever. She was obvtown.

actualy the biggest thing in addition to that xyl wrote that bothered me was "kill all lurkers"... I was convinced he was scum and really regret my parting words.

Xyl always wants to lynch lurkers. Same as me. And lo, Giuseppe lurked through.

I'm convinced my main reason for dying was not agreeing to be bullied by Rofl, ABR, and Fonz and not because any of them thought I was scum.

Well, of course I didn't think you were scum, hence my repeatedly saying I thought you were town. And we never tried to 'bully' you, grow the fuck up. Also, you seem to have conveniently forgotten Xyl.

You know what my biggest regret is? Caring too much what you and Tajo thought. If I hadn't been so worried about not hurting uninjured players, I'd have nailed Nuwen the second she killed WWB.

[The Fonz]

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya....

[The Fonz]

I have to say, give me aggressive, leads-the-town ABR over bizarre fakeclaim ABR anyday. I hated that guy.

[The Fonz]

Dunno. Let's see if we can get him here.

Someone's crying Lord, kumbaya...

[The Fonz]

If anyone ever gets worked up over ABR, all they need to remember is he's the only player to win day one as a jester without having to deviate from his usual playstyle at all.

Love ya, Albert.