War in Heaven II - Spirit of Vengeance (Over!)

[Yosarian2]

Hi, everyone, replacing in.

I'll try to get caught up as quickly as possible. Until then, anything urgent I need to know or need to do?

[Yosarian2]

Ok; I guess I'll do my normal "read through with game and note random points as I go”.

Page 4: stratagy discussion, Albert and Kinetic argue about stratagy; Kinetic arguing for town taking their time, Albert arguing for speed to counter “rage” points, everyone seems to agree that town should heal everyone 1 hp and dosn’t hurt people at random. (I’m a little fuzzy about the stratagy myself, this is my first “War in Heaven game”, but the logic makes sense.) This is followed by Rofl completly ignoring all this and hurting Kinetic. Seems odd to me.


Page 5: Albert attacks Kinetic. I don’t really agree, but he’s being logical and agressivly scumhunting, which actually makes me feel better about Albert. I like it a lot better then rofl’s unexplanined damage of Kinetic, anyway.

right, hoopla dies right after kinetic

i love how i always make the scum squirm right away

Ugh. This post feels so scummy.

Page 6: Albert continues to look pro-town-ish, especally with how he responds to rofl’s clique stuff. Scum Albert would be more tempted to use that to his advantage, I think.
I would fos vIQleS for his silly “no fos yet, but your close” response to Albert’s vote, but he’s apparently town according to the first post.
Page 7: Hmm. Scum Shinnen votes rofl.
Lol at Xyl.

I concur. Xyl is also quick to come to conclusions without any evidence.

rofl and Xyl are still town.

So you think quick conclusions are scummy, eh?

Not sure what you mean here, Nuwen, but I don’t think anyone could claim that jumping to conclusions is a reliable DGB scumtell of any type, lol; DGB jumping to random conclusions pretty much just is a sign that DGB is playing the game.
Page 11:

DGB, thoughts on Shinnen_no_Me?

Yeah, Albert is still town.

I read ABR like a book. I have a total town read on him. I'm willing to stake my reputation on it.

He is, but I will note that using the phrase “I am willing to stake my reputation on it” is perhaps the single scummiest thing a person can say, hah.

Read up to page 14 so far...

[Yosarian2]

Q21, I would like you to utilise what you claim you have.
Im not going to direct you, but an example of the power you claim to wield is required now.

Your Town damage is very close to those I highly suspect, and your claim needs to be tested.

I'm not caught up yet, but this seems odd.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sill way behind here, but if Q21 was scum, then he would be able to do the thing he's claiming, right? Except he's be using "rage" points instead of "Zeal" points or whatever.

I'm not sure how Q21 using his claimed ability would help us find out his role at all, since if he's town and telling the truth he can do it or if he's scum he would also be able to do it. Am I missing something here?

[Yosarian2]

Ok, still reading:

Page 17:
Xyl’s plan is reasonable. I’m not sure why he was so opposed to the mass heal thing, though; seems like if the whole town wants someone dead; they’re dead anyway, and it gives a little more protection again the scum kill. But his “Let’s only hurt someone who has already been hurt, and let’s do it fast and get a lynch off” thing sounded good to me.
And Albert instantly ignores it and hurts Hoopla, who was still at full life. Ugh.

Fos:albert

Page 19: Continued stratagy debate between taho and the fakevoting crowd and Fonz with the opposite view.
page 20: Rofl’s attack on seraphim here is just bad, ugh.
...and just as I’m becoming convinced that rofl is scum, I see Shinnen-scum attack him again, with an actual hurt this time. Hmm.

You could read it like that. But I prefer to translate that as "rofl, stop it, you're gonna get yourself lynched because of your erratic play, start hunting scum". Guess what? People are now hurting you because of your erratic play! who called it?

no, people are now hurting me because i'm a power role and they're scum

...interesting that he post this not long after the dead scum hurts him.
Page 22:
I thought populartajo’s stratagy suggestions sounded reasonably pro-town when he first made them, but it’s really starting to seem like he’s just repeating his stratagy argument over and over again while not hunting for scum at all.

Fos:tajo

Page 23: Everyone’s really starting to pile on Shinnen now.
Ok, read up to page 24...ugh, starting to get a headache. I’ll try to do some more later.

[Yosarian2]

Am I missing something here?

Yes. I am an Ophanim, which means that I can detect secret actions. If q21 gets his act together and makes an action before my watch expires, I'll be able to test his claim.

Ah, ok. And you think you can tell the difference between rage and zeal, if there actually is such a difference?

[Yosarian2]

Page 27: Nuwen and ROFL finish off the scum, both apparently being Seraphs.

Oh yes, and taking into consideration the meta of the player, ABR is another slam dung scumbag.

Why? What's your meta on ABR as far as bussing goes?

What happened between twenty minutes ago and now to remove Xyl and ViQles from your list?

His nose twitched.

He's totally his town self.

I read ABR like a book. I have a total town read on him. I'm willing to stake my reputation on it.

I need support to kill vIQleS within the hour.

Who's with me?

*raised hand*

Intent to hurt: DGB

Her recent attacks against me are nothing but late OMGUS.

Um...if anyone looks OMGUS here, it's ABR.

This is followed by ABR and ROFL going hard after Hoopla again...don't really see why, from all the quotes ROFL has here looks like it was mostly because Hoopla was supporting the "let's vote instead of hurting" game stratagy theory day 1. Which just seems like a terrible reason to vote someone...

[Yosarian2]

q21: Interesting. I'm not really sure why you first hurt Nuwen and then unloaded your firepower onto Albert, though.

Everyone else: Is it likely that each scum could have 9 rage points stored up now? I guess I'll see when I get caught up...how much rage have the scum used to date?

[Yosarian2]

firestarter is more scum than ever for forcing him to use his zeal[...].

Where did that happen? I must have missed it.

Firestarter was demanding q21 demonstrate his zeal ability.

9 points seems like a lot...it's basiclaly a one-shot kill for a lot of people, right? It also means q21 would win a 1 on 1 endgame with basically anyone. I'm wondering; is it possible q21 could be a SK or something?

[Yosarian2]

q21 could have been an endgame threat to the scum until firestarter just talked him into using all his ammunition.

Right, and that's exactally why it dosn't really seem like a town role to me; town should never win a one on one edgame.

Did town have anything like that in earlier War in Heaven games?

[Yosarian2]

So, is ABR at lynch -1 now?

Rofl: Good point. If q21 is town, then firestarter may have wanted him to use up his ability now.

[Yosarian2]

we have to kill yos and rolf.

Wait..what the hell? Why me?

If there's a case against me, I'll be glad to answer it once I have a chance to read the damn game.

also, MASSCLAIM NAO, I have a plan too.

Is your plan "get all the town people to claim so me and my scumbuddies can know exactally when we can use our rage points to speedkill them"?

YOS, START CLAIMING.

Ah, I see that it is.

If it's a split role/motive game like Flay said it was, that would mean that any role could be scum or town, so I don't see how massclaiming helps town. On the other hand, if scum have a certain amount of rage damage they can do at will based on time, then knowing how many hitpoints everyone has would help scum a LOT, wouldn't it?

[Yosarian2]

I doubt one scum can get that much rage, pop. I am open to killing Yosarian first, though.

Why? Because I questioned your role?

[Yosarian2]

FUCK! What a fucking waste. My apologies, but seriously fuck.

I wish I'd thought of this before I wasted my ZP or my hurt, but I think I have an idea that could guarantee a win for town. Obviously, I think its genius, but I may be wrong.

It requires the following assumptions to be true:
- At least one of rofl and nuwen is town.
- Neither rofl or nuwen is a massive HP fallen version of myself.

Personally I like the chances of the above, therefore I put forward this idea:

STAGE 1: We leave both of seraphim and myself alive. We go about killing everyone else (still in order of scumminess, of course). That leads to a final three situation with myself and two seraphim, or possibly a town victory before that point even.

STAGE 2: If both rofl an nuwen are town we win here. If only one is town then that one hurts the other. There is no way to control what a scum seraph would do here, but if they do anything other than attack the town seraph I'll know who to join in with, otherwise I will stay out of the fighting at this point.

STAGE 3: If that damage race is won by the loyal seraph than the LOYAL ANGELS WIN. If not then I should have accrued enough ZP from the deaths of Fallen in stage 1 and from the passage of time to win the final damage race with an injured scum seraph.

Final Result: LOYAL ANGELS WIN!

Genius or Idiocy?

I would suggest killing people in this order, anyone who agrees should suggest an order of their own:
The Fonz
Firestarter
Yosarian2
Populartajo
DGB

I'm actually happy to let DGB live through the entire thing because she could easily have framed me as scum a few posts ago and probably won the game for scum. She didn't. She is obvtown for me.

Only problems I see with this plan is:

1. q21 might be scum, in which case town loses.

2. If he is town, one of the two sepherem is scum, and whichever other townie we kill last is scum, then we get to a 2 town 2 scum endgame and scum probably win that one, if they have rage points and q21 spent

[Yosarian2]

no, q, don't listen to tajo just because he's OMG CAPS LOCK ANGRY

its strange cuz some pages ago you thought fonz was town and giuseppe was scum.
q21, we have our scumpair here.

You and rofl, right?

yos,trust my plan im the most confirmed town of this group.
it needs your claim.

Everyone else: Is populartajo actually confirmed town? He looked pretty sketchy in the early part of the game I've managed to read so far.

Pop: How did you get confirmed town?

[Yosarian2]

I started my post after I read the last post, I posted, and then came back and seen that a few posts had been made in the time it took me to write mine.

Why has Fonz been replaced with Yos all of a sudden?

No, I didn't replace Fonz, Fonz is still here.

[Yosarian2]

Only problems I see with this plan is:

1. q21 might be scum, in which case town loses.

2. If he is town, one of the two sepherem is scum, and whichever other townie we kill last is scum, then we get to a 2 town 2 scum endgame and scum probably win that one, if they have rage points and q21 spent

1. I'm not. I can say nothing more to allay your fears on that.

2. That's why DGB is non-negotiably last on the list. She could have framed me if she wanted to. Framing me probably wins scum the game regardless of my alignment, there I'm as certain as one can be before flip that she's town.

Ok, #2 makes sense. If you are town, then DGB almost has to be town, I think.

I do think there's some chance scum might be able to disrupt the plan first, though; plus, I'm not sure how you are suggesting the endgame work. If it's you and the two serephem, and one of them is scum, how would you know which one is town? How will they know you're town? Still sounds like a standard 3 man endgame to me; the two town still have to figure out who to lynch, right?

[Yosarian2]

best case scenario is to knock off three scumbags in a row, then have nuwen and i duke it out with q21 and two others still alive. should nuwen and i both be town, the other two remaining players aside from q can then have the same slugfest, but that way whoever loses does damage at a slower pace than a potential scum seraph having a 1 on 1 endgame with q.

Ah...so you and nuwen bash at each other until you both die? Ok, that makes sense.

So, sounds to me like the plan works unless:

1. Q is scum
2. both you and nuwen are scum
3. DGB is scum
4. Scum screwes thing up with rage points before plan comes together

That's kind of a lot of assumptions, but considering how many mislynches in a row we've had now, might be town's best shot.

[Yosarian2]

kay, my plan is to massclaim since there is an obvious fallen arel in the scumgroup.
so masslciam nao?

Uh, ok; based on what?

[Yosarian2]

What's the point of massclaiming, save locating any surviving cherubim for scum to kill off first? This setup is similar to smalltown - role is not indicative of alignment. Besides DGB, Rofl, and me, I'm guessing all or most surviving players are erelim.

If Yos is manipulating the kill order to preserve Fonz, why is Fonz being bumped

down

the list? Yos' action hinges on Fonz's alignment, not vice-versa.

If I'm doing what? I haven't said anything about Fonz yet. Why would you think I was trying to protect Fonz?

[Yosarian2]

I HAVENT TOLD SCUM MY TOTAL PLAN.
SO TRUST ME NOW AND YOS SHOULD START THE MASSCLAIM.

On a 1 to 10 scale of being convincing, "TRUST ME, I HAVE A SECRET PLAN" is a zero.

Especally since right now you're acting the way I would expect scum to react.

1. You're trying to get the town to whittle down townies who still have full heath (me, and I notice you're also attacking Fonz; I don't know if he's town, but it's worth noting), which is something scum would want to do, I'd think.

2. You're also trying to find out how many hitpoints townies have, which goes along with 1 as a scum tactic.

3. You lied to me and pretended to be confirmed, trying to take advantage of the fact I haven't had a chance to read the whole game to trick me into claiming.

[Yosarian2]

The lynch list's order doesn't matter, since its entirety will end up inevitably.

The order matters because the sooner we hit scum, the fewer RP they'll unleash from now until end game. It also matters because we'll be able to see connections between scum and other players earlier on.

I agree with DGB.

I'll go along with the plan, but if we do, I'm really thinking we need to get rid of Tajo ASAP, unless there's some good reason not to in the part of the game I haven't read yet.

[Yosarian2]

I won't splice hairs. Tajo dying sooner makes no difference in the three player endgame setup.

The Fonz
Firestarter
Tajo
Yos
DGB

Yes? Good?

I don't know if you guys are getting it - the goal is to get all three of us into an endgame situation. Either Rofl and I kill each other (scum will probably win this damage duel with rage) and then q21 kills the leftover

or

we autowin if Rofl really is town.

Can someone point me to the case against Fonz?

[Yosarian2]

The lynch list's order doesn't matter, since its entirety will end up inevitably.

The order matters because the sooner we hit scum, the fewer RP they'll unleash from now until end game. It also matters because we'll be able to see connections between scum and other players earlier on.

I agree with DGB.

I'll go along with the plan, but if we do, I'm really thinking we need to get rid of Tajo ASAP, unless there's some good reason not to in the part of the game I haven't read yet.

No there isn't. Right now, though, I think that unified hurting of Fonz is important. In the cooldown period that will follow we can discuss exactly who goes next. Tajo's name will be on the list of possibilities.

Yosarian, your action is charged and ready. Go forth and use it well.

Well, you're right, I should start hurting people so we can get this plan going; at the rate this game is going, I don't know if I'll ever really catch up (although I'm going to keep trying), so I suppose I can't wait for that.

Anyone have a problem with me hurting Tajo right now?

[Yosarian2]

Hmm...I did a quick skim of Fonz's posts, and wasn't impressed by most of what he's done since the Shin lynch. We're about to go out to the grocery story in a few minutes, and I should probably use my hurt first (lol...real conversation I just had. Malyss "Ok, come on, let's get going." Me: "One second, I have to hurt someone first.)

You're right, if rage points come every sunday (do we know that that's how it works, or was that just how it worked last game?) we do want to lynch someone before tommorow. I still think Tajo is scum, but if there is a bigger consensus on Fonz, I'll go with that for the sake of trying to beat that deadline.

Hurt:Fonz

But after this, we need to get rid of Tajo.

[Yosarian2]

scum has unleashed its 6 RPs on Q21.

Hmm...looks like you're right, according to the mod's votecount.

I suppose the scum are trying to disrupt the plan. On the other hand, I'm now 95% convinced q21 is town (it could be a crazy WIFOM scum gambit, but I doubt it). Which also means DGB is almost certanly confirmed, as we said earlier.

So, if q21 and DGB are both town, then the plan is a excellent idea. We need to move it foward as quickly as possible before the scum get more rage points.

[Yosarian2]

Oh and once last thing: the fact that i haven't dumped rage basically proves me town. But meh.

Uh...unless that's what that 6 point rage dump on q21 was.

[Yosarian2]

So, all players to L-1. Rolf and nuwen can help with this.

What DGB said. All players to L -1 means scum win instantly, dosn't it? If the scum can do 6 rage points a week, or whever, then if we put everyone to lynch -1, the scum kill everyone who's not scum basically at once, don't they?

You're right that if we get to a point where the last person on the list is scum it would be bad; I already pointed that out, remember? However, q21 made a good point that DGB is probably town, and she's goign to be the last person left on the list.

Besides, "brining everyone to lynch -1" also isn't ideal because it means we're taking a long time random hurting everyoen and not actually killing anyone; your plan would give scum pleant of time to build up rage points and win the game, since we're not going to kill scum under your plan.

Also:

I imagine rolf calling me scum even when he refuses to answer blatant scummy shit. Interesting to note that Yos thinks Im scum just because Im attacking his predecesor without readinf the thread. Dude, read the thread, you are better than that.

All I know is, I would expect the scum to want to whittle down a townie with full hitpoints like me, and I would expect scum to try to find out how many hitpoints everyone has. Also, you lied about being confirmed. Plus, you trying to shoot down q21's plan, and instead replace it with a plan that seems to guarentee a scum win, makes me even more convinced you are scum.

[Yosarian2]

Oh and once last thing: the fact that i haven't dumped rage basically proves me town. But meh.

Uh...unless that's what that 6 point rage dump on q21 was.

Except that 1) that happened yesterday, so before the rage would have shown up and 2) at a time when i clearly wasn't online.

Hmm. In the first games, were rage points individual, or do the scum hold them as a group? How does it work?

I had a whole theory in the back of my head that you may have hit q21 with rage points just so you could heal him and look pro-town, but if the timing dosn't work for that...hrmm. (thinks)

[Yosarian2]

you are so full of shit, yos.
1. you are not a townie.

That's you're defense? Pfffttt.

2. my plan was to get a fallen arel not to find out how many hitpoints everyone has

Bullshit. Getting everyone to claim means you find out how many hitpoints everyone has.

Also, after rofl said this:

dude a fallen arel makes perfect sense but HE'S NOT GONNA CLAIM AREL SO YOUR MASSCLAIM IS TEH STUPID ANYWAY.

there was exactally zero chance a scum fallen arel would claim arel, and yet you kept pushing for a massclaim after that anyway, saying that you had some kind of "SECRET PLAN" (in all caps).

So, no, whatever you were doing, you were clearly NOT trying to get a arel to claim, since you kept pushing a massclaim after that became impossible. Try again.

3. i never lied about confirmed. im the most protown player of this group. face it

Why? "I'm town face it" is not an argument.

Right now, tajo, it sounds like the concencuss is that you need to be the next to die. If you have some actual argument for why you are town, you should make it, right now. You know, with quotes and an argument and stuff.

4. i NEVER tried to shoot down q21 plan. Im improving it.

Lol.

So, your plan is that, instead of lynching people, we bring everyone to lynch -1, giving you and your scumbuddies more time to build up rage, and then waste zeal points that q21 might need in endgame to finish people off? How is that an improvement?

So, please DIE.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you think rolf is town?

Not really, no; he was my main suspect for a while, as I made clear. The "rofl and nuwen kill each other plan" should take care of that problem, though, assuming no more then one of the two of them is scum.

[Yosarian2]

By the way, Tajo, if you've got some kind of real defense to make, some reason I should think you are town, you have about 2 hours to make it, before my hurt gets recharged.

[Yosarian2]

Hurt:populartajo

Too soon. Flay

Let's kill off this obv scum ASAP, before he has a chance to build up rage points again.

[Yosarian2]

Dang, I timed that wrong, that stinks.

hurt:populartajo

[Yosarian2]

Wait...Fonz isn't dead? Does that mean he lied about his role?

[Yosarian2]

YOU ARE MISSING THE FACT THAT IM OBV TOWN, YOU DA.

You keep saying this over and over again, but you keep refusing to explain WHY we should consider you obv town.

Convince me you're town. Use quotes ,or arguments, or whatever you've got. Show examples of you acting in a pro-town way. Make a case. Or convince me someone else is a better lynch then you are. Because you repeating "I AM TOWN" over and over again is not going to do it.

[Yosarian2]

im fucked up in a hosp bed and im not in my house comfortably sit to run calculations or hunt for quotes.

Ah, sorry to hear that.

You say q21 has botloads of HPs but it wont matter when scum can hurt in thread and with rage.

Well, at the moment, it really looks like you're the most likely scum, that's the thing; and we can't hestiate, we can't wait, we need to lynch scum FAST before the rage recharges. And at the moment you are still the most likely suspect.

You're right, it's a little disturbing that everyone (well, other then you, I guess) are all going along with the plan. What's your theory for why the plan won't work, then? You worried that, say, rofl and nuwen might both be scum?

[Yosarian2]

the plan wont work if all the players left alive with q21, rolf-nuwen and dgb are scum. stalemate there and they wont hurt each other anymore.

Yes, tajo, I pointed that out long before you did.

DGB is mostly confirmed at this point, I think. So, again, do you really think both rofl and nuwenn are scum? If they are, then the plan would cost the town the game.

Convince me that they are more likely to both scum then you are to be scum, and we can lynch one of them instead of you.

therefore the q21 plan wont be implemented by scum and it will become a hurt race that we know scum will win.

Unless the scum think their best shot is to kill off q21 with rage points before the plan can happen. In which case, the scum would be trying to stall, delay, wave their arms wildly, and do whatever it takes to slow us down right now.

after all that have said, you still think I am scum?

I think it's likely, yeah, especally considering your anti-town behavior in the last several pages.

Plus, honestly, we're kind of in a position where I'm hoping you are scum becasue if you're not we're in really deep trouble; wheras if you are, with only a few HP left, and we hurry up and finish you off before we can do much more damage, we may have a shot.

Know something, I shouldnt prove Im town, you should prove Im scum.

I made my case for why I think you're scum. Tour early game behavior when you argued stratagy instead of scumhunting for basically the entire first 30 pages, your mudslinging, your incredibly anti-town plans. And your only response was to say "I'M OBV CONFIRMED TOWN" over and over again in all caps.

[Yosarian2]

also i meant to say that that las post from yosarian is a big misrepresentation of what i did and what i said ALL the game-

What are you talking about? Where did I "misrepresent" you? And if so, why didn't you say so the first 3 or so times I made those exact points against you?

if you are town, you should pianfully see it and dont be fooled by scum.

Oh Lord. I should painfully see what?

Convince me, convince us, that you're town, or that rofl is scum, or SOME bloody thing, but you need to actually make arguments and respond to things and stuff. Declartive statements about how "I AM TOWN" and "YOS IS SCUM" or whatever are worthless to us.

Why did you do this pointless OMGUS post instead of actually responding to my post, Tajo? You scum giving up? Or scum trying to find an excuse to hurt a townie one more time before you die?

[Yosarian2]

Firestarter
DrippingGoofball
Yosarian2
Nuwen
populartajo
q21
roflcopter

This is our list of players. If we assume 4 scum alive, we are fucked up.
We have to assume 3 scum alive, that DGB and q21 are town and that there is one scum between rolf and Nuwen.
So we are left with the following players:

Yosarian, populartajo and Firestarter.

THERE HAS TO BE AT LEAST ONE SCUM in this group. What about if we make the wrong decision today (killing me instead of Yos is the wrong decision, but hey thats me)? You are left with scum ready to hurt in thread and with rage.

Rather, we put all these players at L-1 and kill them at the same time. Me included.

So...we start to do that, put a few players at or close to lynch -1, what's to stop scum from just killing a bunch of pro-town players and winning? Or just continuing to rage-dump on q21, kill him, and winning, since you plan basically means we aren't going to lynch anyone until q21 can kill everyone at once?

[Yosarian2]

oh look yos is attacking me of omgus when I attacked him first, even when he was Giuseppe.

I attack you and hurt you.

In response, instead of responding to any of my actual points, you just decleared me scum, claimed I somehow "misrepresented" you (which I certanly didn't), and declared an "intent to hurt" on me instead of responding to my attack in you.

Attacking your attacker, in order to avoid having to defend against the valid points he's making against you, is, by definition, an OMGUS attack. And that is exactally what you were doing. The fact you were attacking Giuseppe earlier represents nothing, especally considering you just hurt rofl like 6 hours ago.

[Yosarian2]

pretty strange why he thinks Im OBV scum when he has offered NO OPINIONS on anyone else, huh?

:eyebrow: no opinions?

How can you attack me for not being able to read the entire game, when you were in the game the whole time and are clearly not even reading my posts?

[Yosarian2]

Considering the way Tajo hurt Rofl, I doubt they are scum together.

If tajo flips scum, Rofl has to be town. At that point, the remaining scum would almost certanly be Nuwen and Fire; we would want to kill them ASAP, Nuwen first since he's the bigger threat in a race.

[Yosarian2]

i'm gonna let q21 call it. whichever of tajo and yos he wants to die next is who i will hurt when i can.

no, use this:
if we put yos and me at l-1 then i would be happy with my dead cuz ill come up town and yos will be obv scum.
then we avoid considerably the problem of lynching the town in this situation.

Um...if you are seriously suggesting that me, rofl, and nuwen are scum, tajo, then your plan would almost certanly cost the town the game. You realize that, right?

[Yosarian2]

Considering the way Tajo hurt Rofl, I doubt they are scum together.

Close to impossible.

Right.

Q21: You listening? IF tajo flip scum, Nuwen basically has to be his scumbuddy, and we have to hit him hard ASAP, with everything we've got, including whatever zeal points you have.

[Yosarian2]

What happens is tajo is town, and copter is scum?

Are we still better off killing tajo first?

Well, not better off, of course not.

But, would it still be winnable?

(thinks)


Ok, let me see...last vote count was:

FIRST DAMAGE TALLY OF THE TWENTY-FIFTH ÆON

DrippingGoofball and Yosarian2 are both at normal HP.

Nuwen has 2 damage.
Firestarter has 3 damage.
populartajo has 4 damage.
roflcopter has 5 damage.
q21 has 10 damage.

(checks first post) If rofl is the standard role from page 1, he started with 12 hitpoints, so he would have 7 left.

If Tajo is dead and town, and rofl is alive and scum...uh....well, it would depend on how many zeal points q21 has. If q21 has, say, 3, and there are 2 other townies left...I donno, might be winnable, especally if the scum screw up the timing and don't make all their hits.

Why, do you think rofl is more likely scum then tajo at this point?

[Yosarian2]

lol, possible.
its pretty obvious, yos is also asking for my lynch without thinking it very much, i think the dichotomy is between he and me.

"without thinking about it very much"?

I've been explaining my suspicions of you for days now, and you just keep refusing to respond in any kind of rational way other then blind OMGUS and random unexplained "I AM CONFIRMED TOWN YOU IDIOTS" statements.

[Yosarian2]

let q21 decide, scumbag.
dont get too impatient and stop trying to complot against q21 plan

lol...you've been trying to convince us for the past 2 pages that the q21 plan would cost the town the game because "no one was arguing against it", tajo. And now you're accusing me of "tryign to plot against the plan"?

Flailing scum Tajo thought he had a chance of getting rofl on his side, is my best guess.

[Yosarian2]

lol, possible.
its pretty obvious, yos is also asking for my lynch without thinking it very much, i think the dichotomy is between he and me.

"without thinking about it very much"?

I've been explaining my suspicions of you for days now, and you just keep refusing to respond in any kind of rational way other then blind OMGUS and random unexplained "I AM CONFIRMED TOWN YOU IDIOTS" statements.

how is this OMGUS when I was the first attacking you?

I just explained this, you know. You're attacking me in order to avoid having to defend yourself against my rational arguments against you, that's why it's an OMGUS attack.

I never said the town that they were idiots.
Please STOP TWISTING MY WORDS, LYING SCUMBAG

Lol

you have no mind?
really, this town SO deserves to lose.

Im not going to bother with a defense when the retarded townies left are being guided by obv scum.
...This is one of the most retarded towns Ive seen in a while. Seriously.

You're right; you didn't say the town was idiots, you just said that the town "had no mind", "deserved to lose", and that we were "retarted".

[Yosarian2]

now i'm wondering how many scum there are, because people are suddenly talking about consensus killing me after killing tajo, and the scum wouldn't need to get that kind of agreement out of the town if there are still four of them alive.

DGB asked about what happens if we lynch Tajo and he's town.

I doubt that's going to happen, though; the key thing is, we lynch tajo and he flips scum, that means Nuwen is his buddy, and we need to pile on Nuwen ASAP, because his extra damage would then probably be the biggest threat the scum has left.

You agree with that, rofl, q21? I realize it's a slight divergence from the plan, but I think it'll be the way to go here.

[Yosarian2]

And tajo: if you were town, you'd be actually trying to defend yourself at this point rather then just spouting garbage over and over again every post.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah this town deserves to lose. I apologize for the insults, though.
Look, yos, you just want to make me look bad against town, i was pissed and you are just taking an advantage of it, classical scum behaviour.

Dude, you were focusing on the wrong part. I just quoted that because you accused me of lying.

I don't care if you insult the town, or even if suspect me or whatever. I care if you insult the town and attack me AS A WAY TO AVOID DEFENDING YOURSELF. That was the point.

[Yosarian2]

i dont need to answer to garbage, thx very much.
I JUST WANT YOU AND ME dead now.

If my case against you is garbage, then PROVE IT, that's how mafia is played.

If you can't do that, then just keep trying to play on people's paranoia and emotions if you want, it won't save you.

[Yosarian2]

Am I wrong when I say that its weird that all people are supporting this plan when there 3-4 scum alive?
I dont think so.

Right; that was your point, and that was why I started to wonder if perhaps we shouldn't follow the plan. And yet, because I listened to you and thought about what you said, suddenly I "have to be scum"?

Pfft.

[Yosarian2]

No, you are scum for other reasons.

Reasons you continually refuse to actually, like, give.

We HAVE to follow the plan. I never said dont follow the plan..

Yes, you did. The "let's massclaim and then put a bunch of people to lynch -1 while the scum keeps raging us all to death" plan is completly different from q21's plan, and your plan would cause a town loss, guarneteed.

Also; why do "we HAVE to follow the plan" when you were just saying a few pages ago that the plan would cause a town loss? Really feels like you're just grasping at straws here, tajo...

What Im preventing is the extremely likely scenario of all scum alive against q21-Nuwen/rolf and DGB. If you and Fire are scum, you wont obviously hurt each other and start a damage race against the three prob townies alive.

Ok, so convince us that fire is scum and you're not. Or convince me that we should lynch rofl today instead of you. Or something. You know, play mafia, try to lynch the scum, all that; basically, the exact opposite of what you've been doing since I joined the game.

I think this is the scum plan and this was all the time since they first killed fonz which was obv town and then they are trying to kill me which at the same time Im obv town.

I need to go back and count how many times you've called yourself town while giving no reasons at all for it in the last 20 pages. You've probably set a new record.

I really think you are better than this, yos...

I think that you're better then this; I think if you were town, you would actually be scumhunting, or defending yourself, or proposing good plans, or something. All you're doing is to keep suggesting new plans that would screw the town, repeately contradicting yourself, finding weak excuses to attack me and rofl, and refusing to answer questions or respond to anything.

[Yosarian2]

No, no, Yos, too much stalling.
We need you, me and Fire at L-1.

Um...putting us at lynch -1 IS stalling; we should just be killing the scum instead of playing games with the hit points, we don't have that kind of time to screw around.

That way we cant kill all the remaining scum and me at the same time.
Who do you think is town and scum?

At this point, if there are 3 scum, I think the most likely scenerio is you are scum, nuwen is scum, and fire is scum.

If you are town, then that would probably have to mean...I don't know what that would mean. ROFL scum+Nuwen scum? Or perhaps ROFL scum+Nuwen scum+fire scum? I donno. I have trouble coming up with a likely scenerio that involves you being town.

[Yosarian2]

Im town that means you are scum, right yos?

Pfft, like I'm going to be scared off by something like that. Been around the block too many times to be scared off a good wagon by that kind of scum tactic, tajo...

Either you're scum, or one of our other assumptions is incorrect. (the other assumptions being; there are exactally 3 scum; one and only one of the serephem is scum; q21 is town; dgb is town) Out of all those assumptions, the two I'm least confident about are the "there are exactally 3 scum" one and the "one and only one of the serephem are scum" one. Still, I think there's about a 90% chance you're scum based on the setup information we have, higher because of your scummy behavior.

[Yosarian2]

Different stances towards rolf

On a different note, Rofl feels quite town to me, in his own way.

Alright Xyl, I don't believe Rofl should be able to be acting as unilaterally as he is. I've been saying all game I don't believe in unilateral action, and I'll stand to it.

I'm not tolerating anything unilateral. Heal Xyl right now to make up for Rofl's work.

I totally disagree that Rofl is obvtown. He's been doing nothing but undermining our attempts at organization this entire game, and pretty much arranged all on his own for Kinetic to get killed by Rage Points.

ORLY?

So...he thought rofl was obvtown, then he was unhappy about rofl taking unilareral action, and then finally, after Kinetic died due partly to ROFL's unilateral damage, he thought rofl was scummy?

That's not exactally inconsistant, you know...looks more like a perfectly normal changing of the mind based on new information.

Hi, everyone, replacing in.
I'll try to get caught up as quickly as possible. Until then, anything urgent I need to know or need to do?

This was the first time you reading the thread and you know that there is something urgent you need to know?

Um; I knew it was a speed game, I knew it had gotten to 145 pages in only a few weeks, and I knew that every town person had a chance to do a point of damage once every 24 hours from my role PM. You really think that's an unreasonable question, to check if there was anything urgent I needed to do before taking the time to read the thread?

Not really sure what to say about the rest of Giu's posts...looks like he changed his mind about if healing was a good idea along the way, but he certanly wasn't the only one who did.

Also, it's rather scummy for you to try to do a WIFOM attack here where that you're attacking Giu because YOU were trying to lynch a townie, Xyl, and Giu wasn't willing to just trust you and follow your lead.

Page 22:
I thought populartajo’s stratagy suggestions sounded reasonably pro-town when he first made them, but it’s really starting to seem like he’s just repeating his stratagy argument over and over again while not hunting for scum at all. Fos:tajo

This is false. I was on the players that hunted shinnen and called her obv scum since day 1.

Yeah, I know you were on the Shinnen wagon, but that dosn't make my comment any less accurate; other then that, you really seemed to devote all your time to stratagy to the complete exclusion of anything else; you went as far as to just basically copy and paste the same ALL CAPS LETTERS post over and over again for pages while all kinds of interesting scum hunting was going on without you. So, yeah, your play really does look like you using stratagy arguments to avoid actually hunting scum or analyzing players.

q21: Interesting. I'm not really sure why you first hurt Nuwen and then unloaded your firepower onto Albert, though.

last try to make q21 look bad before he becomes prob confirmed town. Also, I love how yos didnt protect ABR when he thought he was obv town and he even asked if he was at L-1.

I thought he was obv town for part of my read through, then had doubts in the later part of the readthrough, if you were paying attention.

Anyway, what do you mean "protect"? What, do you expect me to heal him or something? Wouldn't that have been a terrible play? Also, what's wrong with pointing out when someone was at L -1 because I didn't want anyone to hammer him without knowing.

Hmm...I did a quick skim of Fonz's posts, and wasn't impressed by most of what he's done since the Shin lynch. We're about to go out to the grocery story in a few minutes, and I should probably use my hurt first .

Hurt:Fonz

But after this, we need to get rid of Tajo.

Setting up mislynches, huh? With NO CASE on him and you havent even read the thread entirely.

No; q21 was right, I needed to just hurt someone fast at that point for the good of the town, rather then wait any longer and waste my "vote". I wasn't especally happy about the Fonz lynch, I would have much rather lynched you as I made it clear, but since I hadn't read the whole thread yet, I was willing to follow along the two people I was most sure were pro-town at the time, q21 and DGB, especally since the need for town concensuss seemed obvious.

Then it all comes garbage attacks that make no sense to answer since Yosarian is TWISTING my words every time he can and trying to make me look bad.

Twisting your words? How the hell am I twisting your words? You keep saying this, claiming I'm "misrepresenting" you or whever, but you keep refusing to explain why. As far as I can see, I haven't misrepresented you at all.

Also, have you already answered this?
WHEN THE FUCK DID I SAY THAT NUWEN AND ROLF HAVE TO BE SCUM TOGETHER?

You were being damn confusing with the argument you were trying to make, Tajo, and I was trying to figure out what you were getting at, which is why I *ASKED* you about that.

I thought that was what you were saying here:

the plan wont work if all the players left alive with q21, rolf-nuwen and dgb are scum. stalemate there and they wont hurt each other anymore

Although, reading it again, I guess that's not what you were saying. So, my mistake. It'd sure be a lot easier to figure out what you were talking about if you actually answered questions once in a while, though, rather then just shouting the same garbage over and over again in all caps.

[Yosarian2]

populartajo, Loyal Arel, was cast out of Heaven.

Shit. Shit shit shit.

Q21, DGB: if tajo is town, then rofl has to be scum. Killing him as fast as we possibly can is our only hope.

Hurt:rofl

[Yosarian2]

So, the scum are Firestarter, Rofl, and...perhaps that's it? That would explain why rofl is trying so hard to look townie in thread...

[Yosarian2]

Can you back that claim up Yos?

At least on my end?

I dont think so..

Well, I know you pretty much have to be scum at this point, because I'm town. And your scumbuddy is obv rofl.

[Yosarian2]

Nuwens hurt on rofl was not part of Q21's plan, right?

The plan is fucked, dude. It was fucked as soon as tajo flipped town.

Out only chance now, our only hope, is to kill the scum serephem so we have a shot at winning the damage race. In other words, we have to kill rofl.

I made this clear days ago, dude; weren't you paying attention?

[Yosarian2]

Hurt:Q21

[Yosarian2]

Ok, if q21 was dead before I hurt him

Hurt:firestarter

[Yosarian2]

Well played, everyone.

My scum buddies did very well. The scum just won this one mostly because Nuwen and DGB were so good at manipulating the town to lynch each other, just like a good scm should.

By the way, this post made me laugh, just because of how much guts it had:

I won't splice hairs. Tajo dying sooner makes no difference in the three player endgame setup.

The Fonz
Firestarter
Tajo
Yos
DGB

Yes? Good?

I don't know if you guys are getting it - the goal is to get all three of us into an endgame situation. Either Rofl and I kill each other (scum will probably win this damage duel with rage) and then q21 kills the leftover

or

we autowin if Rofl really is town.

Go team!

Albert: You played fine, we were worried you'd be harder to mislynch then most; you looked quite pro-town early on, while rofl and tajo looked a lot scummier and looked like much easier lynches.

And yeah; town would have done better to not be QUITE so agressive; town DOES want to lynch about once a week or so, so the scum don't get too many free hits, but more then that and the accuracy of the lynch starts to drop a lot and that costs the town. If I'm town in a game like this next time, I probably would support some kind of hypo-voting system.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, I figured q21 was the SK; I said so in thread, and rofl attacked me for it. I didn't persue it, because I wouldn't have done so as town either; I would have just mentioned the possibility then gone back to hunting for mafia, consideirng mafia would be a bigger threat to town then a SK would be in that situation.

[Yosarian2]

And yeah; town would have done better to not be QUITE so agressive; town DOES want to lynch about once a week or so, so the scum don't get too many free hits, but more then that and the accuracy of the lynch starts to drop a lot and that costs the town. If I'm town in a game like this next time, I probably would support some kind of hypo-voting system.

See the post Xyl made early on, on the (entirely reasonable) assumption that scum rage accrued every sunday. Every three days appeared to give us twice as many mislynches as once a week.

Hmm. Eh, I suppose the extra rage points per mislynch screwed with that. (Although that was dangerous; if town had figured out that mechanic, they could possibly have figured out how many scum were on each townie wagon)

Still, even if the scum just got 1 rage point/scum/week, that's still only 4 damage/week, or basically 1 scum kill every 2 weeks, more or less. If town lynched once a week, and didn't do a lot of extra random damage to other people, town still controls a lot more of the kills then in a "normal" game, and with a little more time to think (and perhaps a fake-voting system like Tajo was suggesting to keep things a little more controlled) I suspect town would lynch right a lot more often.

Basically, from the point when you were under attack, Fonz, town had enough info to basically figure out who the scum were, if they had taken the time to do a full analysis and figure out who had attacked who when. They couldn't, though, because they didn't have enough time to go through the whole thread and do that kind of analysis, or anywhere close to it; if town had moved a little slower, we might have lost.

[Yosarian2]

I couldn't believe Kinetic was lynched! I wonder what the motives were.

There was a running theory debate between "let's play carefully and with concencuss!" and "let's lynch fast!" at the start of the game. Both sides made sense to me, both sides had reasonable arguments, but for some reason both sides decided that the other side was scum trying to hurt the town. Not surprisingly, the "let's lynch 'em fast" people generally lynched the "let's wait for general agreement" people first, lol.

[Yosarian2]

Well, not really. Tajo was the main 'wait for agreement' guy and outlived any of the aggressive faction.

True, true. Still, I do think the theory disagreement was the main reason rofl and Albert lynched Kinetic.

[Yosarian2]

Nuwen was great with the numbers game, and she knew the exact moment it was safe to blow our own cover.

(nods)

I know it looked silly I was still trying to get q21 to nuke Rofl even when it was 3 vs. 3, but I was still a bit worried about q21's "zeal points"; I really had no idea how many he had, it seemed like the only chance left that we might lose would be if q21 had some absurd amount of zeal points built up already, and if he and Rofl did a co-ordinated strike on, say, DGB and killed her fast; it wasn't likely, but I don't take chances on unknown variables like that.

Plus, I thought getting q21 to nuke rofl would be worth extra style points.

[Yosarian2]

The "Im confirmed town" was just to mess with scum. Town couldnt win at that point and obv scum were leading the lynches.

Eh...I'm pretty sure I would have been going after you no matter what there, after I replaced in...you really looked scummy to me, and when you kept saying you were town, it just made it easier to lynch you.

Probably the big difference is I would have gone after you harder and not stopped and hurt Fonz first if I was town.

[Yosarian2]

The "Im confirmed town" was just to mess with scum. Town couldnt win at that point and obv scum were leading the lynches.

Eh...I'm pretty sure I would have been going after you no matter what there, after I replaced in...you really looked scummy to me, and when you kept saying you were town, it just made it easier to lynch you.

Probably the big difference is I would have gone after you harder and not stopped and hurt Fonz first if I was town.

Actually I just started acting scummy when there was no way town could win this. If there had been at least one motivation other than the sound of the freaking boring machines in the hospital, I would prob have made a better case than the one I crafted.

Oh; there was no point until you were dead when we had the game locked up, at all. If you could have convinced town and q21 to go after, say, Nuwen instead of you, or just convinced town that we should all be healing q21 as much as possible instead of hurting people, scum could easily have lost.

[Yosarian2]

The point is that I realized rolf was town too late.
Also, could we have won if we had masshealed q21 instead of hurting each other?

Well...in that case, q21 probably would have won. But if q21 was town, then yeah; town could have healed q21 in thread faster then we could rage him, and if he had hit scum with his zeal attacks, town could have won.

[Yosarian2]

If anything, I think this game was pretty heavily balanced in favor of the town. Scum basically had to play an almost perfect game to even have a chance.

[Yosarian2]

Also, when I have time, I should actually read this whole game someday, lol.